#then lesboys with the same argument

[thee-radio-host-is-a-kookaburra]

[moogghost]

my favourite hobby is allowing myself to say one (1) thing on a discourse post where the op is being a dumbass and immediately blocking them and moving on with my life bc i've learned to not spend that much time on it and i only do when i'm mass reblogging shit or if i think it's funnier to do the above since i Know it'll make them mad that i blocked them and thinking about them seething makes me giggle (i don't do this often if at all bc i don't like replying to comments)

it's literally so funny especially in this case bc they're just crying about how mspec lesbians and lesboys don't exist with repeated posts on their blog like........do u have any personality besides hating these specific queer people you don't like. it's honestly sad lol

[tired-and-bored-nerd]

i really hate how exclusive the queer community on pinterest is.

[multigenderswag]

Lesbianism masterpost

Discourse about lesbianism pops up on this blog every so often, and I'm sick of hearing the same argument over and over again, so! If you disagree with my opinions about lesbianism, you should read some of these posts so I don't have to repeat myself arguing with you.

Links in bold are the ones I recommend the most

Some basic explanations

Male lesbian/lesboy infographic

Lesbian trans man interviews

Trans man in a lesbian bar: Do I belong here? (bonus: https://medium.com/@florence.ashley/the-irreducibility-of-belonging-transmasculinity-and-lesbian-bars-91ac73a37ee4)

How can men be lesbians?

How can someone be an mspec lesbian?

History of bi lesbians

Some more history, and other basic explanations

Problems with the men/non men binary

Attraction isn't a binary between "attracted to men" and "not attracted to men"

How do multigender men fit into this?

Gender venn diagram

What do genderqueer lesbians think about NMLNM?

Where does the line get drawn between men and non men?

Nonbinary isn't a third gender

This definition centers men

Exclusion of multigender men

Lesbian as a gender identity

Definitions don't have to be rigid

Do hippos count as dragons?

How to define a color

What do you want a definition for?

Definitions are not static

There is no one true definition of lesbian

Lesbianism is multifaceted

Inclusive definitions of lesbianism

Mspec and male lesbians aren't harmful to other lesbians

Lesbianism is diverse, and that's okay

It's their identity, not yours

We're not forcing you to be attracted to men

Deconstructing an exclusionist carrd

"Men can't be lesbians" + TERFism

We're not "ruining" the word lesbian

Fluid sexualities and non-fluid sexualities can coexist

Questions for those skeptical about bi lesbians/bi gays

[nyuuko]

Can anyone tell me why lesboys/turigirls/gaybians are so hated in the queer community when the entire point of this community is to be yourselves and destroy gender norms?

Aren’t we supposed to be supporting every form of queerness, even weird and confusing forms, and continuing to break down those societal pressures around sexuality?

Everyone preaches inclusivity, freedom, and equality, and tells you to be queer and proud! Until you’re too queer. Until your queerness can’t just be boiled down to “boy who likes girls” or “nonbinary who likes girls”. Sometimes gender and sexuality are twisted up and combined together, sometimes they’re complicated. Sometimes gender isn’t one feeling, but a bunch of tiny feelings. Sometimes gender is several things at once.

So why is all of that so easy to accept… until it comes to lesboys/turigirls/gaybians? Why is it so hard to understand that I’m both a boy and a girl who is gay for men and lesbian for women? Using the terms I use gives me euphoria. And why is it okay to take my euphoria from me when you just don’t want to understand my identity?

The same arguments I see thrown around attacking lesboys have been used against neopronouns and xenogenders. But now xeno/neo users are LITERALLY using those arguments against other identities. How does that make sense??

[our-lesboy-experience]

i remember on tiktok when there was discourse on demiboys being lesbians and the argument was "although demiboys have a non binary half, we can't ignore the boy half and that cant be lesbian!!" (and to my knowledge demiboy doesn't even necessarily mean half non binary?) but they also dont mind genderfluids being lesbian even though they can also be boys and only point ive heard for that is "but theyre not ALWAYS a boy"

it can still be quite similar though! and genderfluids vary,my friend is literally most of the time a boy or boy + other genders for example

i feel like exclusionists accept boy lesbians as long as it isnt in the name of their gender or they straight up dont see anyone as a boy once they use the lesbian label

(demiboy only describes being partially, but not fully, a boy. it does not necessarily imply anything about being partially anything else in place of that, so yes you are correct)

people who don't like lesboys arguement about genderfluid lesbians either go into one of these three (other than that genderfluid people don't exist at all) - genderfluid people are not REALLY men/boys so they can be lesbians (degendering), they can be lesbians despite them sometimes being a boy (why be against lesboy then?), or genderfluid people who feel even the slightest connection sometimes to manhood cannot be lesbians at all (transphobia)

you are right about that, because I have read in the same paragraph so many times people saying they support multigender/genderfluid lesbians but not "men who are lesbians." they don't see us as the actual genders we are, we are some other from monogender people who are the only ones who can truly claim manhood or womanhood. they accept us if we just settle for the category of "other" and never express ourselves

[endopropaganda]

hi i just noticed ur dni said lesboys? im pretty sure lesboys are just lesbians who act sorta masculine (like... tomboys ig? but lesbian) is there like a problem with that?

or at least thats what i was told but don't quote me on that im js. Confused

I'm going to just straight up come out and say this.

We have explained it twice here

This post and this post

But on our main? I went into depth on the actual reason why. So I might as well say it here. As well as say some things I've wanted to say for a good long while while I'm still in my identity delusions

I was assaulted by actual men who identified as lesboys. More than once. So no, its not lesbians who act masculine. Its men claiming to have the same "gay attraction" to non men that actual lesbians have. I came out about it previously on our main but not here. Because I didn't want my trauma to get in the way of our job on this profile. But considering that this account is currently being abandoned for our mental health (which apparently people can't read or something idk)

I dont like men. I likely will never be fully comfortable around men the way I used to be ever again. I am a lesbian largely from trauma and I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is my own sexuality being used by the very men its meant to keep me away from. My identity as a lesbian is as much my identity as it is a safety net. And because of the absolute bullshit that the "lesboy" label has thrown me into for ever daring to trust it. Well, I'm not letting it within my net anymore. If you dont like it just leave us the fuck alone because I'd rather not have my hand forced into talking about my trauma for the 100th time.

And for any lesboys who want to comment on this, invalidating my trauma for the 20th time. I dont care anymore. I can't care anymore. With every comment you send I just feel worse and fucking worse about the fact that I have painful ass memories your community caused. You act like your label couldn't POSSIBLY harm anyone yet here the fuck I am. Someone who has been irreversibly damaged by your label. Dont tell me to "deal with it", don't tell me "not all of us are like that", it's not going to reach me. I gave it so many chances. I give lots of things chances. I can't do that anymore. I cant do THIS anymore. Hell I hardly want to interact with new people anymore.

"Why should we care what someone identifies as? As long as they are happy and think the label fits" yeah have fun with that flawed argument when it gets used by Radqueers and Pedophiles who want to join the lgbt, you know it can, right? Or have you not seen the horrors of that community firsthand? If you don't see how it can be used, here's a lovely example; "why should we care if someone identifies as a MAP, as long as they are happy and the label fits them, it's fine, right?". And it's not like nobody's used that argument. I've seen it everywhere. I shouldn't have to worry about anyone's opinions on my dni. I shouldn't need to explain my trauma for every person questioning why my dni is there. I'm the one that put it there. I'm the one your community hurt so bad I needed a dni to keep myself safe. Have fun with that knowledge. I'm done here.

-Magenta (Victim)

[the-alarm-system]

yeah sorry, but thats argument against lesboys is trash and actively terf rhetoric. men pretending to be lesbians so they can assault and abuse women is the same argument terfs use against trans women.

lesboys as a group are not all sexpests, no group is, this is vile mentality to have and they should go to therapy instead of taking their anger out on an entire community of queer people who are uninvolved.

How can they be so blind to it being direct terf garbage, thing is I have gendered trauma related to women, but I was never stupid enough to let it make me an exclusionist, and I never used it as an excuse to become a misogynist. It’s just silly, instead I do my best to heal and to trust

[rtc-confessions]

Shout-out to @pennylambchops who actually made an argument against me, instead of just telling me I'm wrong! I appreciate it.

Anyway, let's get into it, shall we?

“he is explicitly SAID to be gay. yes, gay doesn’t only mean mlm/nwlnw in some cases but in noels IT DOES.” Yeah, that's fair. I've nothing to say in my defense on that one, it was one of my weaker points tbf.

“fanon very rarely affects canon” FINALLY someone who recognises that I don't think mspec Noel is canon! Thank you!

“i feel like we should still base what we do and what we say about characters a little bit off of canon.” Very fair. I mean, if we just start doing anything we want with characters, we might as well just write an original work. But in this hypothetical case, I'd only be changing his sexuality from gay/mlm to somewhere else on the queer spectrum, it's not like I would drastically change who he is as a person (or maybe I would; with Noel being a very stereotypical gay man, having him be some other label of queer might be detrimental to his character. But imo, that is a problem on Richmond and/or Maxwell's end for making him a walking stereotype and not mine for wanting to mess with it)

“but you choose to ship the gay character with woman.” No I don't! Nowhere in any confession I made did I say *I* ship Noel with any of the women in RTC. I am in fact a Nischa shipper 100%. I just said you could, if you wanted to and if you wrote it well enough that it could be explained (not that it necessarily has to fit in with canon if you don't want it to)

“if you like a dynamic so much between noel and a woman you could maybe idk, make platonic content for it since platonic love is just as important as romantic love” That is exactly what I'm doing. In fact, I think we need more platonic Noel and Constance stuff, because the few moments they share in the musical are actually so sweet and I feel like no one appreciates that enough.

“using sexuality is fluid is also a dumb excuse for making him not gay. because not everyones sexuality is fluid, some people are simply just attracted to gender and that doesn’t change ever.” You're correct, some people's sexualities don't change. And the same could apply for Noel, but it might not. His sexuality might be fluid, or it might not. It's up to the writer, really.

“dont start a hissy fit when people get upset over you taking away their representation.” I'm not taking away anyone's representation. Mostly because I don't actually ship what we are discussing, but even if I did, that hypothetical fanfic would be in my tiny corner of the internet, and if people think my singular, hypothetical work in about 3,000 fics across ao3 and fanfiction.net would affect anything, then I'm fucking honoured that I'm though of so highly in this fandom /s

- Lesboy

~~

[redheadbigshoes]

Got ass deep in the bi-lesbian discourse and the main argument in defense of them I keep seeing is "well sexuality wasn't so rigidly defined historically! all sapphics were called lesbians even up until the 80s/90s!!"

yeah, now they're bisexual, or pansexual, because lesbian didn't adequately define their experiences. Do we still call transgender people trans*xuals or transv*stites??? Do we still call gay men fairies??? No!! Because the meanings of words change over time and carry more weight and the needs of the community necessitated the change.

These same people saying that Bi-Lesbian or Lesboy or whatever the shit they're coming up with now would not ask their friend "Hey wanna go catch a Talkie tonight? I hear the female lead is a real hot tomato!" because.... words change. Meanings change. "It used to be normal!" is a bullshit excuse in any other context; the language evolved because what was used harmed the groups of people it described.

"It's not hurting anyone!!" It is hurting the lesbian community by diluting the meaning of the word and invalidating the lesbian experience of Not Being Attracted To Men. You cannot be a lesbian and be attracted to men, just like you cannot be tall and also short.

how is that so difficult for them to grasp??

The way they think it’s okay to do things that were okay in the past just like conservatives and think that’s being progressive lol

It used to be normal and acceptable conversion therapy, does that make it okay to do it now? Their logic sucks

And they’re acting as if it doesn’t hurt the lesbian, bisexual and trans community all in one…

[bilesproblems]

(sorry this is long my adhd decided to infodump lmfao)

technically not an mspec lesbian thing but a gaybian thing so close enough(?), but i've been thinking ab an interaction i had recently a lot and i rlly wanted to talk ab it ;w;

a bit ago i was hanging out at this place with a "friend" (he likes me more than i like him :p) and he knows im genderfluid and identify as gaybian

a while ago (like long before this situation) i tried to explain to him ab lesboys using the example of a bigender boygirl (i think i talked ab it on this blog actually? tumblr search is mean tho so im not sure) and he basically was so set in stone that lesbian had to mean non-men loving non-men that he explained it by saying that "a bigender person [specifically boygirl] could identify as lesbian because they identify as bigender not as a boy" which is like soo fucking invalidating to bigender ppl dkfhvidufhv but anyway

so he already strongly still thinks you cant be lesbian while a boy or gay (turian) while a girl

anyway back to the main point sorry im rambling lol

we were at this place and there were paintings on the wall that happened to be (or maybe were purposefully) the lesbian and gay flag colors

and he was joking with me and pointed at the lesbian colored one and said "this is you sometimes," then pointed at the gay colored one and said "this is you other times!"

and i didnt say anything in the moment (didnt wanna start an argument) but it really pissed me off (and hurt) that he said sometimes

it felt just as bad as if he had misgendered me...

no!! im both a lesbian AND gay man at the SAME TIME at ALL TIMES do NOT say "sometimes"!!!!

I keep thinking ab it and it rlly does hurt :<

Yeah you did talk about that before, and damn. Some gaybians are fluid between the two but not all of them. I want to be happy he's at least trying but I don't think he really even is if he doesn't think bigender men are man enough or that you're a gaybian at all times even though I doubt you haven't explained it to him

[bi-sapphics]

LMFAOOOOOOOO 95% sure this was me, cry about it and consider yourself mutually blocked (i didn’t know why initially but now i no longer feel bad even though that post is a month old now LOL). plus your arguments make absolutely no sense and show that you prefer to stick with what you were taught than to consider another perspective. y’all only have the “misdirected because it means lesbian” argument and that’s easily debunked in literally any of those links (also on my profile) you click on to read (especialy this one). also the racial slur argument comes completely outta ur ass and i’m gonna need to stop seeing it to maintain any sense of sanity bc there is absolutely no intersectional experiences between white & black people in terms of same class of division (i.e. if they were both women they’d still experience misogyny together) but it’s a completely different story for lesbians & bi women. give me a decent source for literally anything you just claimed and critically explain it if you’re so confident that this very recent argument is the correct one. and do so without being bimisogynistic about men and wlw experiences, please.

where is that post i found the other night that says smth like “people are so focused on the erased version of lesbian history that now they think anything bi women do is lesbophobia (and in this case ‘disrespectful’ when it actually never was in the first place” cause that is so accurate rn

edit: found it (the original is deleted and the only reblog i could possibly find is from a radfem so beware, i’m sorry)

edit 2: i’d like to make it clear since i didn’t mention it but op did add onto the original post with the same format but speaking against “male lesbians” or “lesboys” that time and i do in fact agree with that. i’m very openly against lesboys & mspec “lesbians” so take that how you will.

[rei-does-stuff]

Alrighty, so looking through some stuff. I just realized a good chunk of hate toward mspec people with a mono identity is just aphobia and arophobia dressed up. I realized this when I came across a post going against women who are bisexual but only date men.

It’s really weird. It’s basically “Say you’re against Aspec folk without saying you’re against Aspec folk”

Okay so firstly, this isn’t stupid bc you’re right

Secondly yeah, a lot of anti-mspec lesbian arguments are the same argument used by aphobic people, its the same argument with a different filter,

Thats what exclus do, they yell at whatever identity is even a little bit out of the norm and scream about it until it’s widely accepted and then they move on to the next,

One day mspec lesbians and lesboys will be accepted by the wider community (as it slowly is currently) and then the exclus will have to move on to something else

[redheadbigshoes]

Same anon who got messaged about terf rhetoric etc and like the worst thing is like. I can't openly say anything bc i feel uncomfortable and don't want to start a fight. I feel like I've cornered myself and now I'm stuck to be honest. Literally every single one of my mutuals I've had since I have been on Tumblr have decided to support mspec lesbians even though none of them are Lesbians. I've had people just randomly vent about how horribly exclusionist lesbians are though I'm a lesbian myself etc. Back then I was struggling with a lot of self hatred and internalised lesbophobia so I didnt feel like I *could* say anything but now I'm kinda stuck. It's also wild how these people would tell me their other lesbian (ex) friends got in an argument with them and broke off the friendship once they announced they identify as a lesboy and bi lesbian etc and would tell me that they're so glad I'm a good person instead etc. They make the people around them feel unsafe and invalidated yet still think they're in the right. I have been slowly putting distance between us though so I'm almost free lmao

I am so sorry you have to deal with that. They aren’t really your friends if they don’t support who you are.

You really could just block them, if you don’t feel comfortable being honest and talking about how their views are problematic and lesbophobic.

When something like this happens we usually have to think more about ourselves and our mental health, sometimes it’s not worth starting a fight if that will drain us.

They’re not only bigoted but they sound incredibly manipulative. Those are not good people to be around.

Just know there’s a bunch of people here on Tumblr fighting what these people are supporting. There’s other and better people for you to befriend, people that will actually support you and listen to you.

[bilesproblems]

As a mspec lesbian I'm literally tired of bigots coming up to me trying to force TERF rhetoric down my throat until I block them, the year literally hadn't even started right and a "mutual" decided to accuse me of agreeing with violent ideologies against lesbians (??)

they even had the audacity to discuss it in a public tweet, of course, full of TERF rhetoric and harmful comments about mspec lesbian.

Good lord. Literally every argument against mspec lesbians is TERF shit and/or fearmongering. Sure, when they say "lesbians can't ever like men" they're not thinking of trans women because they recognize trans women as women, but they're still reusing the same rhetoric that TERFs use.

(also when they equate being a woman with not being a man, and not being a man with being a woman, what am I supposed to think other than that they're transphobic/exorsexist?)

But seriously. "Violent" ideologies against lesbians? That's gotta be the fucking argument that mspec lesbians cause "real" lesbians to be sexually assaulted in an attempt to "correct" them. That just. It isn't how this works. Not only does it completely ignore the purpose of "correcting" (I'll make a whole post of my own against that argument sometime with more details) but also, you can't ever blame anyone for an assault other than the assailant and anyone directly helping, on purpose. Mspec lesbians don't want other lesbians to like men! Not all mspec lesbians even like men, and no one in the community thinks those of us who don't like men should. Lesboys and male lesbians don't want to force other lesbians to date them either! They just want to be in the community with us, where they all used to belong, and they don't want to be harassed because people use an incomplete sentence for a definition to invalidate their complicated relationship with identity and their self determination that led them to feel like a lesbian

[rei-does-stuff]

Hi so I’ve tried to write this ask like 20 times but tumblr keeps deleting it in the middle of me writing so this is getting copy pasted from my notes app <3

So like I’m not a lesbian, much less an mspec lesbian or a male lesbian so idk how upset I’m allowed to be over the exclu scythe lesbian flag but I am upset lol

I’ll start with the scythe aspect of it. It just doesn’t look nice lol. It’s literally the most basic jpg of a scythe slapped over a color palette from the cover of the first book. Boring! I much prefer the scythegender and scythe lesbian flag you coined, bc… yk…. They were actually made by a fan of the book series! And they look better. Plus shi didn’t even spell Neal right in the tags!

Now onto the spicy discourse!

I don’t consider myself a radinclu, mainly because of certain syscoursey stuff and because people like proshippers will always try to worm their little ways into safe spaces. However, I do consider myself a supporter of all good-faith identities, and like… imo, mspec lesbians and male lesbians (unless they’re like. Literally just cis men calling themselves lesbians for the funnies) aren’t doing any harm??? Like literally, it’s JUST labels. Mspec lesbians are just people who choose to label their sexuality a bit differently, sometimes for simplicity’s sake, sometimes as an identity. Male lesbians are mostly transmasc or non-binary people who just don’t want to label their attraction as straight for one reason or another, from what I’ve gathered! And that’s completely valid! You made a really good post about this on your main, but like. Non-binary really isn’t just women-lite, you have to support ALL non-binary lesbians or you support none of them. You can be male-presenting and identify as a lesbian, because literally NO ONE other than chronically online people give a shit! I’ve heard the argument so many times that “male lesbians and mspec lesbians are ERASING the oppression that REAL lesbians face!” And like. Like I said before, most male lesbians are either transmasc or non-binary. Not cis men calling themselves lesbians for no reason. How is a non-binary person or a transmasc person identifying as a lesbian reading your oppression? Unless they pass as male VERY well as male, they’re still probably going to face the same oppression that lesbians face for being a non-cis man being attracted to women or people who aren’t strictly male. There are so many reasons someone can identify as both lesbian and male, and I think that’s completely valid. I may not personally understand it (on a personal level) but it’s not  harming anyone, so it’s really none of my business! 

I also scrolled through the OP of the exclu’s Twitter and they’ve retweeted really transmasc-negative posts and while I won’t get into it bc I know you’re not a system they have some absolutely horrible system takes so like. They’re just overall a shitty person! Shop from our fandom! Scythe is for everyone!

(You dont have to answer this i just wanted to get it out lol)

Firstly, even if you’re not an Mspec lesbian or lesboy or any of that you are still 100% allowed to upset over exclus stuff, exclus hurt everyone!!

And yeah!! My guess is that they looked at the first cover of the first book and based it off that, without actually reading the book at all, and as scythe is a MASSIVE special interest of mine it did tick me off a lottttt, I get it was a request but still :/ thanks for the compliment on my flag tho <33

And you don’t have to label yourself a radinclus to support us dw, I don’t even rlly label myself as a radinclus

Also even if someone ‘passes’ really well they’ll still get a TON of hate regardless, plus passing is subjective in a lot of cases, and also if anyone says that cis men like cishet not queer in anyway MEN, can be lesbian they are probably a troll, because you cannot be a lesbian in anyway unless you are queer!

But yeah!! The whole argument is very online centric, irl queer people will not have this discourse at all,

I didn’t really look into the blog too much, I just block exclus whenever I see em, but I’m not surprised at all

Most exclus are shitty tho, and they shouldn’t be in the scythe fandom <3