#then lesboys with the same argument

[multigenderswag]

Lesbianism masterpost

Discourse about lesbianism pops up on this blog every so often, and I'm sick of hearing the same argument over and over again, so! If you disagree with my opinions about lesbianism, you should read some of these posts so I don't have to repeat myself arguing with you.

Links in bold are the ones I recommend the most

Some basic explanations

Male lesbian/lesboy infographic

Lesbian trans man interviews

Trans man in a lesbian bar: Do I belong here? (bonus: https://medium.com/@florence.ashley/the-irreducibility-of-belonging-transmasculinity-and-lesbian-bars-91ac73a37ee4)

How can men be lesbians?

How can someone be an mspec lesbian?

History of bi lesbians

Some more history, and other basic explanations

Problems with the men/non men binary

Attraction isn't a binary between "attracted to men" and "not attracted to men"

How do multigender men fit into this?

Gender venn diagram

What do genderqueer lesbians think about NMLNM?

Where does the line get drawn between men and non men?

Nonbinary isn't a third gender

This definition centers men

Exclusion of multigender men

Lesbian as a gender identity

Definitions don't have to be rigid

Do hippos count as dragons?

How to define a color

What do you want a definition for?

Definitions are not static

There is no one true definition of lesbian

Lesbianism is multifaceted

Inclusive definitions of lesbianism

Mspec and male lesbians aren't harmful to other lesbians

Lesbianism is diverse, and that's okay

It's their identity, not yours

We're not forcing you to be attracted to men

Deconstructing an exclusionist carrd

"Men can't be lesbians" + TERFism

We're not "ruining" the word lesbian

Fluid sexualities and non-fluid sexualities can coexist

Questions for those skeptical about bi lesbians/bi gays

[sophieinwonderland]

Re sandstorms-syscourse: "[insert thing here] makes a mockery of the queer/trans community" is a thing that has been said about any discourse topic you can imagine. Aphobes used to say that aspecs are a mockery of the queer community. Trumeds used to say that transgender people with little or no dysphoria are a mockery of the queer community. Assholes who can't accept the existence of mspec labels are saying that people who identify as bi lesbians or lesboys or what have you are making a mockery of the queer community, and they used to say the same thing about pansexuals. This is a shitty argument because it's basically meaningless. Like, I'm sorry you find it insulting that a group of people exist/identify in a way you disapprove of, but that's a you problem.

Moreover, it is not the job of queer people to make themselves more palatable to bigots in order to be accepted. The people who say "Oh I don't mind the gays, I just wish they wouldn't shove it down our throats" are not allies and pandering to them does not do anything to further queer acceptance. All that will actually accomplish is forcing people back into the closet.

Also, it is very strange to me where anti transIDs draw the line. Transspecies is okay. For some reason, that's not an issue. Saying "I don't want to get an autism diagnosis because it could impact my chances of getting gender affirming care, but I'm 99.9% sure I'm autistic" is fine. Saying "I support singlets who want to become plural" is contentious, but it won't usually get your blog terminated. Saying "I'm transrobot, transautistic, and I support transplurals" is grounds for being actually executed in cold blood. Make it make sense.

I've actually seen mixed opinions from anti-trans ID people about "transspecies." A lot of them seem against transspecies as a term too.

It kind of feels like there is a certain group of people who will claim to be okay with otherkin and alterhumans as long as they "stay in their lane" and don't use any label that would associate them with transgender people or the LGBT community.

[rouge-the-bat]

also something this weird ask made me think about:

if it is meant to be criticizing lesbians with complex/""contradictory""/controversial identities, the assumption that theyre all white is so ?????? like thats just factually incorrect. ive seen bi lesbians, multigender lesbians, lesboys, and other kinds of lesbians often targeted for discourse of a variety of races.

and also, its ridiculous to act like every queer who disagrees with you/does or identifies as something you dont like is white??? it doesnt make your stance somehow more credible to act like that.

there IS plenty of issues in the queer community that are perpetuated by mostly white queers that should be talked about, but it really seems like sometimes people just tack on "white" in their assumptions about anyone theyre trying to criticize for any topic, bc it- idk- makes it seem more likely that the other person and their stance is indeed wrong/worthy of criticism or something??

ive seen people on here who ARE poc being called white during discourse, and its SO strange ??? what is the Point. its a really bizarre and flimsy way to "support" your argument, when its really just baseless and irrelevant assumptions.

it seems to be another situation of people treating everyone of [insert whatever identity] as monoliths, and thus "EVERYONE that shares my identity Agrees With Me, so if you DONT agree with me, you clearly must Not Be This Identity." which is EXACTLY the same thing ive seen people perpetuate in the lesbian community especially- to invalidate any lesbians that arent exactly like them and/or disagree with them.

[endopropaganda]

hi i just noticed ur dni said lesboys? im pretty sure lesboys are just lesbians who act sorta masculine (like... tomboys ig? but lesbian) is there like a problem with that?

or at least thats what i was told but don't quote me on that im js. Confused

I'm going to just straight up come out and say this.

We have explained it twice here

This post and this post

But on our main? I went into depth on the actual reason why. So I might as well say it here. As well as say some things I've wanted to say for a good long while while I'm still in my identity delusions

I was assaulted by actual men who identified as lesboys. More than once. So no, its not lesbians who act masculine. Its men claiming to have the same "gay attraction" to non men that actual lesbians have. I came out about it previously on our main but not here. Because I didn't want my trauma to get in the way of our job on this profile. But considering that this account is currently being abandoned for our mental health (which apparently people can't read or something idk)

I dont like men. I likely will never be fully comfortable around men the way I used to be ever again. I am a lesbian largely from trauma and I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is my own sexuality being used by the very men its meant to keep me away from. My identity as a lesbian is as much my identity as it is a safety net. And because of the absolute bullshit that the "lesboy" label has thrown me into for ever daring to trust it. Well, I'm not letting it within my net anymore. If you dont like it just leave us the fuck alone because I'd rather not have my hand forced into talking about my trauma for the 100th time.

And for any lesboys who want to comment on this, invalidating my trauma for the 20th time. I dont care anymore. I can't care anymore. With every comment you send I just feel worse and fucking worse about the fact that I have painful ass memories your community caused. You act like your label couldn't POSSIBLY harm anyone yet here the fuck I am. Someone who has been irreversibly damaged by your label. Dont tell me to "deal with it", don't tell me "not all of us are like that", it's not going to reach me. I gave it so many chances. I give lots of things chances. I can't do that anymore. I cant do THIS anymore. Hell I hardly want to interact with new people anymore.

"Why should we care what someone identifies as? As long as they are happy and think the label fits" yeah have fun with that flawed argument when it gets used by Radqueers and Pedophiles who want to join the lgbt, you know it can, right? Or have you not seen the horrors of that community firsthand? If you don't see how it can be used, here's a lovely example; "why should we care if someone identifies as a MAP, as long as they are happy and the label fits them, it's fine, right?". And it's not like nobody's used that argument. I've seen it everywhere. I shouldn't have to worry about anyone's opinions on my dni. I shouldn't need to explain my trauma for every person questioning why my dni is there. I'm the one that put it there. I'm the one your community hurt so bad I needed a dni to keep myself safe. Have fun with that knowledge. I'm done here.

-Magenta (Victim)

[run-little-cheetah]

why do you have "lesboys dni" But then have LGBTQphobes dni? you do know that lesboys, turigirls, etc. are almost always like multigender/complex gender nonbinary people right? ik someone who is a boy girl bigender and is a lesboy and a turigirl at the same time. you're literally a transphobe 😭 imagine trying to force nonbinary and intersex people into gender boxes and claiming that you're a safe space.

just know that I'm laughing at you and showing this message to my friends, coward anon <3

btw this is technically harassment bc I told you to back off and yet you wanna start an argument soooo

If you don't agree with me then just block and move on instead of harassing me ab my opinions thanks

[rtc-confessions]

Shout-out to @pennylambchops who actually made an argument against me, instead of just telling me I'm wrong! I appreciate it.

Anyway, let's get into it, shall we?

“he is explicitly SAID to be gay. yes, gay doesn’t only mean mlm/nwlnw in some cases but in noels IT DOES.” Yeah, that's fair. I've nothing to say in my defense on that one, it was one of my weaker points tbf.

“fanon very rarely affects canon” FINALLY someone who recognises that I don't think mspec Noel is canon! Thank you!

“i feel like we should still base what we do and what we say about characters a little bit off of canon.” Very fair. I mean, if we just start doing anything we want with characters, we might as well just write an original work. But in this hypothetical case, I'd only be changing his sexuality from gay/mlm to somewhere else on the queer spectrum, it's not like I would drastically change who he is as a person (or maybe I would; with Noel being a very stereotypical gay man, having him be some other label of queer might be detrimental to his character. But imo, that is a problem on Richmond and/or Maxwell's end for making him a walking stereotype and not mine for wanting to mess with it)

“but you choose to ship the gay character with woman.” No I don't! Nowhere in any confession I made did I say *I* ship Noel with any of the women in RTC. I am in fact a Nischa shipper 100%. I just said you could, if you wanted to and if you wrote it well enough that it could be explained (not that it necessarily has to fit in with canon if you don't want it to)

“if you like a dynamic so much between noel and a woman you could maybe idk, make platonic content for it since platonic love is just as important as romantic love” That is exactly what I'm doing. In fact, I think we need more platonic Noel and Constance stuff, because the few moments they share in the musical are actually so sweet and I feel like no one appreciates that enough.

“using sexuality is fluid is also a dumb excuse for making him not gay. because not everyones sexuality is fluid, some people are simply just attracted to gender and that doesn’t change ever.” You're correct, some people's sexualities don't change. And the same could apply for Noel, but it might not. His sexuality might be fluid, or it might not. It's up to the writer, really.

“dont start a hissy fit when people get upset over you taking away their representation.” I'm not taking away anyone's representation. Mostly because I don't actually ship what we are discussing, but even if I did, that hypothetical fanfic would be in my tiny corner of the internet, and if people think my singular, hypothetical work in about 3,000 fics across ao3 and fanfiction.net would affect anything, then I'm fucking honoured that I'm though of so highly in this fandom /s

- Lesboy

~~

[soul-oblation]

Felt like pointing this out but antiendos give me the the same vibes as anti-radinclus people. They have the exact same arguements (gonna use lesboys as an example here)

"Lesboys arent real! You cant be a man and a lesbian!"

"Endos arent real! You cant be plural without trauma!"

"Lesboys are lesbiphobic and invalidate REAL lesbians"

"Endos are ableist and invalidate REAL systems"

"Lesboys are just straight men!"

"Endos are fakers/just forgot their trauma!"

"It's lesboy's fault cishet men think they can prey on lesbians!"

"It's endo's fault plurality is stigmatized!"

The exact. Same. Fucking arguments. Don't even get me STARTED on antiendo radinclus people

[thetepes]

im sorry to bring up the discourse again so i'll keep it brief. I know not every transmasc experience is the same and i get that. But i'm speaking from the pov of a transguy (aka just a dude) but it always feels transphobic that trans men's identities seem to be considered, less valid, i guess? Like whenever theres a debate about this stuff it feels like trans men's identities tend to be stepped on or used as "arguments" against why lesbian dating men is valid and the arguments always come off as gross. I dont know why some people even i respect just seem to treat us as the exception. Yet i don't see this same level of discourse with gay men/mlm stuff. Maybe it's just the idea of just, man sounds unappealing to most so people are okay with twisting the man part of trans men but ughh. I thought i understood someone who identified as lesboy to be some type of transmasc stuff but then they started believing trans men can be lesbians (they leave out cis men)

I am holding your hand because brother I feel that. A big part of my detransition was feeling like I was never enough? It felt in some ways worse than when I was just a girl because here I am trying my hardest to be what it really feels like I should be and I'm still not enough.

So now I'm nothing and I still don't feel like I'm doing that right? Anyway, yeah, no. That discourse is minimal in the more...cis male gay sphere unless you really head to the corners of it. I think there's a lot of bitterness still from that early 2000's men are bad evil wave of feminism that happened so they cut the man part out even subconsciously? Because man bad? I don't know, I wish I did.

[redheadbigshoes]

Got ass deep in the bi-lesbian discourse and the main argument in defense of them I keep seeing is "well sexuality wasn't so rigidly defined historically! all sapphics were called lesbians even up until the 80s/90s!!"

yeah, now they're bisexual, or pansexual, because lesbian didn't adequately define their experiences. Do we still call transgender people trans*xuals or transv*stites??? Do we still call gay men fairies??? No!! Because the meanings of words change over time and carry more weight and the needs of the community necessitated the change.

These same people saying that Bi-Lesbian or Lesboy or whatever the shit they're coming up with now would not ask their friend "Hey wanna go catch a Talkie tonight? I hear the female lead is a real hot tomato!" because.... words change. Meanings change. "It used to be normal!" is a bullshit excuse in any other context; the language evolved because what was used harmed the groups of people it described.

"It's not hurting anyone!!" It is hurting the lesbian community by diluting the meaning of the word and invalidating the lesbian experience of Not Being Attracted To Men. You cannot be a lesbian and be attracted to men, just like you cannot be tall and also short.

how is that so difficult for them to grasp??

The way they think it’s okay to do things that were okay in the past just like conservatives and think that’s being progressive lol

It used to be normal and acceptable conversion therapy, does that make it okay to do it now? Their logic sucks

And they’re acting as if it doesn’t hurt the lesbian, bisexual and trans community all in one…

[bilesproblems]

(sorry this is long my adhd decided to infodump lmfao)

technically not an mspec lesbian thing but a gaybian thing so close enough(?), but i've been thinking ab an interaction i had recently a lot and i rlly wanted to talk ab it ;w;

a bit ago i was hanging out at this place with a "friend" (he likes me more than i like him :p) and he knows im genderfluid and identify as gaybian

a while ago (like long before this situation) i tried to explain to him ab lesboys using the example of a bigender boygirl (i think i talked ab it on this blog actually? tumblr search is mean tho so im not sure) and he basically was so set in stone that lesbian had to mean non-men loving non-men that he explained it by saying that "a bigender person [specifically boygirl] could identify as lesbian because they identify as bigender not as a boy" which is like soo fucking invalidating to bigender ppl dkfhvidufhv but anyway

so he already strongly still thinks you cant be lesbian while a boy or gay (turian) while a girl

anyway back to the main point sorry im rambling lol

we were at this place and there were paintings on the wall that happened to be (or maybe were purposefully) the lesbian and gay flag colors

and he was joking with me and pointed at the lesbian colored one and said "this is you sometimes," then pointed at the gay colored one and said "this is you other times!"

and i didnt say anything in the moment (didnt wanna start an argument) but it really pissed me off (and hurt) that he said sometimes

it felt just as bad as if he had misgendered me...

no!! im both a lesbian AND gay man at the SAME TIME at ALL TIMES do NOT say "sometimes"!!!!

I keep thinking ab it and it rlly does hurt :<

Yeah you did talk about that before, and damn. Some gaybians are fluid between the two but not all of them. I want to be happy he's at least trying but I don't think he really even is if he doesn't think bigender men are man enough or that you're a gaybian at all times even though I doubt you haven't explained it to him

[redheadbigshoes]

Same anon who got messaged about terf rhetoric etc and like the worst thing is like. I can't openly say anything bc i feel uncomfortable and don't want to start a fight. I feel like I've cornered myself and now I'm stuck to be honest. Literally every single one of my mutuals I've had since I have been on Tumblr have decided to support mspec lesbians even though none of them are Lesbians. I've had people just randomly vent about how horribly exclusionist lesbians are though I'm a lesbian myself etc. Back then I was struggling with a lot of self hatred and internalised lesbophobia so I didnt feel like I *could* say anything but now I'm kinda stuck. It's also wild how these people would tell me their other lesbian (ex) friends got in an argument with them and broke off the friendship once they announced they identify as a lesboy and bi lesbian etc and would tell me that they're so glad I'm a good person instead etc. They make the people around them feel unsafe and invalidated yet still think they're in the right. I have been slowly putting distance between us though so I'm almost free lmao

I am so sorry you have to deal with that. They aren’t really your friends if they don’t support who you are.

You really could just block them, if you don’t feel comfortable being honest and talking about how their views are problematic and lesbophobic.

When something like this happens we usually have to think more about ourselves and our mental health, sometimes it’s not worth starting a fight if that will drain us.

They’re not only bigoted but they sound incredibly manipulative. Those are not good people to be around.

Just know there’s a bunch of people here on Tumblr fighting what these people are supporting. There’s other and better people for you to befriend, people that will actually support you and listen to you.

[bilesproblems]

As a mspec lesbian I'm literally tired of bigots coming up to me trying to force TERF rhetoric down my throat until I block them, the year literally hadn't even started right and a "mutual" decided to accuse me of agreeing with violent ideologies against lesbians (??)

they even had the audacity to discuss it in a public tweet, of course, full of TERF rhetoric and harmful comments about mspec lesbian.

Good lord. Literally every argument against mspec lesbians is TERF shit and/or fearmongering. Sure, when they say "lesbians can't ever like men" they're not thinking of trans women because they recognize trans women as women, but they're still reusing the same rhetoric that TERFs use.

(also when they equate being a woman with not being a man, and not being a man with being a woman, what am I supposed to think other than that they're transphobic/exorsexist?)

But seriously. "Violent" ideologies against lesbians? That's gotta be the fucking argument that mspec lesbians cause "real" lesbians to be sexually assaulted in an attempt to "correct" them. That just. It isn't how this works. Not only does it completely ignore the purpose of "correcting" (I'll make a whole post of my own against that argument sometime with more details) but also, you can't ever blame anyone for an assault other than the assailant and anyone directly helping, on purpose. Mspec lesbians don't want other lesbians to like men! Not all mspec lesbians even like men, and no one in the community thinks those of us who don't like men should. Lesboys and male lesbians don't want to force other lesbians to date them either! They just want to be in the community with us, where they all used to belong, and they don't want to be harassed because people use an incomplete sentence for a definition to invalidate their complicated relationship with identity and their self determination that led them to feel like a lesbian

[rei-does-stuff]

Alrighty, so looking through some stuff. I just realized a good chunk of hate toward mspec people with a mono identity is just aphobia and arophobia dressed up. I realized this when I came across a post going against women who are bisexual but only date men.

It’s really weird. It’s basically “Say you’re against Aspec folk without saying you’re against Aspec folk”

Okay so firstly, this isn’t stupid bc you’re right

Secondly yeah, a lot of anti-mspec lesbian arguments are the same argument used by aphobic people, its the same argument with a different filter,

Thats what exclus do, they yell at whatever identity is even a little bit out of the norm and scream about it until it’s widely accepted and then they move on to the next,

One day mspec lesbians and lesboys will be accepted by the wider community (as it slowly is currently) and then the exclus will have to move on to something else

[rei-does-stuff]

Hi so I’ve tried to write this ask like 20 times but tumblr keeps deleting it in the middle of me writing so this is getting copy pasted from my notes app <3

So like I’m not a lesbian, much less an mspec lesbian or a male lesbian so idk how upset I’m allowed to be over the exclu scythe lesbian flag but I am upset lol

I’ll start with the scythe aspect of it. It just doesn’t look nice lol. It’s literally the most basic jpg of a scythe slapped over a color palette from the cover of the first book. Boring! I much prefer the scythegender and scythe lesbian flag you coined, bc… yk…. They were actually made by a fan of the book series! And they look better. Plus shi didn’t even spell Neal right in the tags!

Now onto the spicy discourse!

I don’t consider myself a radinclu, mainly because of certain syscoursey stuff and because people like proshippers will always try to worm their little ways into safe spaces. However, I do consider myself a supporter of all good-faith identities, and like… imo, mspec lesbians and male lesbians (unless they’re like. Literally just cis men calling themselves lesbians for the funnies) aren’t doing any harm??? Like literally, it’s JUST labels. Mspec lesbians are just people who choose to label their sexuality a bit differently, sometimes for simplicity’s sake, sometimes as an identity. Male lesbians are mostly transmasc or non-binary people who just don’t want to label their attraction as straight for one reason or another, from what I’ve gathered! And that’s completely valid! You made a really good post about this on your main, but like. Non-binary really isn’t just women-lite, you have to support ALL non-binary lesbians or you support none of them. You can be male-presenting and identify as a lesbian, because literally NO ONE other than chronically online people give a shit! I’ve heard the argument so many times that “male lesbians and mspec lesbians are ERASING the oppression that REAL lesbians face!” And like. Like I said before, most male lesbians are either transmasc or non-binary. Not cis men calling themselves lesbians for no reason. How is a non-binary person or a transmasc person identifying as a lesbian reading your oppression? Unless they pass as male VERY well as male, they’re still probably going to face the same oppression that lesbians face for being a non-cis man being attracted to women or people who aren’t strictly male. There are so many reasons someone can identify as both lesbian and male, and I think that’s completely valid. I may not personally understand it (on a personal level) but it’s not  harming anyone, so it’s really none of my business! 

I also scrolled through the OP of the exclu’s Twitter and they’ve retweeted really transmasc-negative posts and while I won’t get into it bc I know you’re not a system they have some absolutely horrible system takes so like. They’re just overall a shitty person! Shop from our fandom! Scythe is for everyone!

(You dont have to answer this i just wanted to get it out lol)

Firstly, even if you’re not an Mspec lesbian or lesboy or any of that you are still 100% allowed to upset over exclus stuff, exclus hurt everyone!!

And yeah!! My guess is that they looked at the first cover of the first book and based it off that, without actually reading the book at all, and as scythe is a MASSIVE special interest of mine it did tick me off a lottttt, I get it was a request but still :/ thanks for the compliment on my flag tho <33

And you don’t have to label yourself a radinclus to support us dw, I don’t even rlly label myself as a radinclus

Also even if someone ‘passes’ really well they’ll still get a TON of hate regardless, plus passing is subjective in a lot of cases, and also if anyone says that cis men like cishet not queer in anyway MEN, can be lesbian they are probably a troll, because you cannot be a lesbian in anyway unless you are queer!

But yeah!! The whole argument is very online centric, irl queer people will not have this discourse at all,

I didn’t really look into the blog too much, I just block exclus whenever I see em, but I’m not surprised at all

Most exclus are shitty tho, and they shouldn’t be in the scythe fandom <3

[nsfwitchy2]

Listen I know I already made a post about this on my last blog and it’s still circulating but like. This is legitimately the most baffling thing to me. Queer infighting is a fascinating study in

- How many people do not learn from their pasts and the past actions of others

- How easy it is to turn entire communities against each other at the drop of a hat

Everyone, EVERYONE, wants to think they’re not a bigot and they’re not capable of bigotry - until someone wants a label to describe their specific experience, or somebody wants to mix and match labels, or someone identifies with your label in a way you personally disagree with or don’t like. And then suddenly everyone’s capable of bigotry - but no no, it’s fine! It’s cool when YOURE doing it because you’re just defending your community against those nasty fakers/bad faith actors/people who don’t REALLY get what this identity is about!!!

I mean…. First y’all came for the bisexuals, demanding they pick a side.

Then the pansexuals because they had the audacity to not identify as bisexual, they felt their attraction wasn’t represented and wanted a different label! And you couldn’t just let them have that right?? I mean, you can’t just MAKE UP these labels that we made up!! 😤

Next we had the ace/aro discourse where you all told aroace people they’re not LGBT because “lack of attraction isn’t a sexuality”. I mean, fuck the fact that the LGBT community is for social outcasts who feel their attraction or gender presentation doesn’t fit the societal norms - your LACK of attraction that doesn’t fit societal norms can’t sit with us!!

Oh and who can forget the bi-lesbian discourse. What was that about again? Right, you couldn’t comprehend the idea that someone may want to identify their romantic and sexual attractions differently, or may identify as both a man and a woman. How dare those FREAKS not fit in with our strict rigid sexuality labels in the FREAK COMMUNITY? 😤😤

And then there was the time you guys just. Unironically started calling trans women pedophiles. Yknow, like the community as a whole doesn’t already have a history of being painted as pedophiles and sexual abusers by the media. Like in the 80s there wasn’t a surge of propaganda calling gay men pedophiles for the crime of…. Being gay. Yeah man if we do that again but this time with a different member of the community it’ll go g r e a t.

Next we had the trans men wanting their own word to discuss their own issues - you guys jumped down their throat about that too. I mean god FORBID the MEN want to talk about THEIR problems? What problems do MEN possibly have??? Yknow not counting the issues that come with being trans and the issues that come with being a man of color and the actual negative ways our society does affect men. Not counting any of that, of course.

And now. Now. You are all making me sit through AFAB transfem discourse - like this is any different??? Because what? Because AFAB women will never experience transmisogyny? Because that’s all being transfem is right - it’s the oppression you face and nothing else? Because AFAB women can’t also have a complicated relationship with their gender that makes them feel alienated by our society at large?

And I haven’t even touched on the kink at pride discourse or the lesboy discourse or the neopronoun discourse or the honest to god millions of other dumb fucking things you people make up to be upset about.

Fucking. I’m tired of this shit man - it all boils down to the exact same argument. How dare these FREAKS want to sit with US at the FREAK TABLE? Don’t they know that they don’t fit into OUR rigid definitions EITHER? They need to find their OWN community? 😤

Like…. We do this every year, and every year you guys sit me down and look me in the eyes and go, “No no!! It’s different this time!!” But it NEVER IS!!!

I mean, aren’t you people fucking tired??? I’m tired!!! I am tired of watching YALL go ape shit - don’t you just wanna be NICE!?

It’s JUNE! It’s PRIDE MONTH and yesterday I got to watch a trans woman post an opinion on a gender label that another trans woman didn’t agree with, so she publicly started bitching on her post and invalidating those people. And then less than an hour later I found a post by a different, completely separate trans woman, this time about kink - with notes FULL of people just SHITTING on the second trans woman from earlier because of HER kinks. And like… what is this accomplishing??? Who is this helping???? Anybody???? It’s pride month, a time when we should all be celebrating the fact that we’ve even gotten this far - but your heads are all so far up your own asses you’d rather cannibalize your own community online. I mean fuck man congrats, the actual bigots don’t even have to do anything anymore - you’re doing their jobs for them.

Happy fucking pride month I guess. I’m sure if you keep publicly tearing down your brothers and sisters, it’ll fill the void in your soul eventually.

Surely this time it’ll be different.

I think queer infighting is genuinely the best example ever of that phrase, “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”

[letmetakethesuffering]

Hey no problem, I didn’t see any overstepping and like you said, any opinions you did have were informed by lesbians within your circles. And like I said, I read the entirety of your conversations. It was so obvious you were trying to stay in your lane and only let said opinions out once boundaries and patience was repeatedly pushed.

Like I tried saying to skeleton-bat, their arguments were utter cow shit. Lesbians do exist in the categories they listed (Intersex, nonbinary, definitely butch) but using these categories to INHERENTLY describe maleness within, lesbian or not, is fucking stretching it.

And while a few of the things said (particularly from Sai) were kinda making me uncomfortable, it wasn’t as horrible or queerphobic as bat is making it out to be. From what I know of Sai, she’s an old school gay who barely understands it pronouns, you think she’s gonna understand the nuances of Lesboys? 😅

I’ve also tried saying this- if you’re going to be arguing in simple terms and without nuance, do not fault for others to be replying in simple terms and without nuance. If you say “lesbians can like like men” without specifying you’re talking about a large group of people with various configurations of gender who are both self indentified lesbians but also some flavor of maleness in their indentity, the AVERAGE person is going to understand you as “any women who likes women likes men” (as binary as possible because our societal gender norms are still binary)

Hell, If I hear you talking about men and men adjacent, I’m gonna assume you’re talking about cis and trans men. Men adjacent again is…. Really in the grey zone here.

I care about my identity, yes. I will defend it and sometimes there are things said by cis lesbians or people who aren’t lesbians at all that hurt or are purposely exclusionary. This was not one of them. Britt especially was charitable and inclusionary in her responses. Sai is very forward, anyone within a 2000 mile radius knows this. You particularly I feel shitty for cuz you obviously didn’t want a part of this in the first place.

The lies bat is pushing about you, about how they treated you is complete malarkey. In the long run, lesbian discourse about lesboys and who gets to say what slur doesn’t matter if we’re causing real ass damage over it. Arguing with strangers on the internet isn’t activism, I had to learn that the hard way.

Real bigots won’t care if cis lesbians accept me or if I count as a lesbian or whatever, they’re going to hurt both of us the same. And real bullies will care more for their rhetoric than actual victims.

Thanks! I like your icon? Of a grandma thing??????

The funniest part is like… I get what Skeleton-bat was initially trying to say. I was actually going to start defending them and kinda try to give some more nuance to the other parties since, yknow, I’m what’s being fucking argued about.

And then I read the whole argument between @skeleton-bat and @thetepes . And then it became more and more clear this wasn’t about protecting lesboys or mspec lesbians anymore, even if that’s what Skeleton-bat still thinks it’s about. Even if that was the intention. This became about protecting their ego. So oops there goes any nuance, there goes any basic empathy.

Thank you skeleton-bat for the supportive reblogs and moral grandstanding and virtue signaling, that sure will do anything other than boost your own ego and signal others how immature you are when it comes to actual homophobia and lesbophobia. The constant tagging surely will show you’re an alllyyyyy.