#the way he acknowledges that in s1 he didnt even think he deserved to have a future 😭

[guardian-angle22]

911: Lone Star | Tarlos Wedding Pt. 2 -> TK's vows

[leincendiaire]

anyways salty thoughts. dont expect me to be nice

this is the one problem not exclusive to the finale, god ed's character arc just. didnt do it for me at all. I excused it before cuz I thought it would pay off as the season went on but nope. he never had a genuine apology moment, just that youtuber apology like gag and the cat collar joke. like they literally show us how the crew was completely scarred by his actions but theyre later just completely fine with him on board???? and stede keeps being his biggest stan when I think he would have been like hey what the fuck!! im sorry I hurt you but I am not responsible for your actions and you hurt my crew whom I hold very dear!! I love ed but Fuck he really went too far those first episodes and he never makes up for it. they only ever focus on His Own self journey, not how he hurt and traumatized practically every other character.

"well, I think narratively izzy's death made sense but—" no!! no it fucking didnt!! im sorry but it was just lazy writing!! they didnt know what to do with him so whoops he gets shot in the dumbest way possible. like, this aint my first rodeo, it aint the first time ive seen a character start off on their character journey to happiness only for writers to give up on it and kill them off. it's a tiring fucking trope tbh and I really wish they hadnt fallen into this trap. like his death scene wasnt good either, if youre gonna do it at least focus on his relationship with the crew, you know, the people he came to accept as family? not the man Who Shot Off His Fucking Leg And Almost Killed Him? I know they had an important relationship but that shit should have been talked about way beforehand, it deserved closure. they should have acknowledged they werent good for each other and made peace with it. izzy deserved a death with people who actually made him happy. ALSO THEY BURY HIM ON FUCKING LAND?????? he spent his life at sea!!!! he is the most devoted out of everyone to being a pirate and you bury him next to your fucking inn???? fucking twats istg

lastly I swear they forgot stede is the main character. they forgot literally everything about how to write him. he gets No Focus in the finale, and every scene he is in is bullshit. I actually wanted to punch my screen every time there was a joke about him being incompetent or whatever. like, hello??? thought we left that shit in s1??? he had Multiple Episodes about learning to be a pirate and adjusting to his new life and gaining more skills but no. he is just silly old loserboy for his cool war criminal boyfriend now. literally no skills or experience whatsoever. ok sure yea thats totally how he acted the rest of the season. also the fuck is it with him staying behind to run the inn with ed?? wasnt the whole conflict last episode their different desires out of life, with ed wanting to start a normal life and stede wanting to be a pirate?? when the Fuck did he change his mind. who are you and have you done with my boy

honestly I feel bad because jenkins is actually a good writer and the whole fandom really expected a lot from a man making his second show, and I think there were a lot of budget cuts and production issues so I can see why it turned out this way. he is probably mad about this too, I bet the cast also, like even the acting in this episode didnt feel passionate, and thats saying a lot since these actors really love this show. im just frustrated. man. time to write fics ig

[cassierobinsons]

to the anon from a few days ago: sorry i'm only just getting back to you on the sam + classism discussion. putting this under a cut because it's rambly

To me the whole Sam classism thing is very much like coming from an immigrant family the people you will meet who complain about "illegals" because they didn't do it "the right way". Like generally, these are not people who hate immigrants or approve of ICE or anything like that, but they still feel a certain moral superiority in having improved their situation "the correct way". I don't think Sam thinks homeless people should all be sent to prison or anything, but I think he still looks at himself as having done something morally correct in getting out of his situation (even though he really didnt in the long run excluding the finale). You see this attitude with other things like when he asks Max why didn't you just leave. I don't think he has no empathy for these situations, but there's like a mental block of not understanding the barriers that other people might face that he didnt.

Oh i extremely know what you mean as a fellow child of immigrants. my mum will make a snide comment while watching the news and i’ll be like 🤨 oh so now we’re pretending that your friend [DATA EXPUNGED] is here totally legally huh. it comes from a small-c conservative belief that there exists a group of people who are less "deserving" than them.

“Morally correct” also happens to be how the fandom sees sam's escape from the family, when it’s just Morally neutral? Like it’s a good thing. But says nothing about sam’s moral fibre because it was for self-preservation reasons. that's not a bad thing either! and i obviously don't think fandom is bad for thinking of sam's hard work as an admirable trait but there needs to be some acknowledgement of his perspective is a little skewed.

Max is a great example to use because sam isn’t being spiteful, but he is being thoughtless and most of it is due to him literally being a man in his early 20s but like, it’s also because of how he grew up and how he got out.

sam’s judgy moments are at their most interesting in s1 because there’s so many of them and because they’re so intentional. Like, intentional on the part of the writers, not sam. his response to max is a reflection of how idk, myopic? sam’s read of dean and their family situation is. It’s an in-universe character flaw he has to work on in order to repair the bond between them, just as dean’s seething resentment over sam’s departure is something he needs to work on too. s1 is about both of them learning to see other as their dad's victim.

I think in general in the fandom you get these sort of knee jerk reactions like "no they can't be racist/sexist/homophobic/classist/etc, they don't hate xyz people" but really no one is saying they do. Like no one is saying Sam spits on poor people. No one is saying Dean thinks women are beneath him. But they both clearly have some ingrained beliefs that are ultimately prejudiced! These aren't immutable characteristics. In fact, I think for the most part if someone had an actual deep discussion with them about it they'd probably come around fairly easily, but that doesn't mean Sam scoffing at Dean hustling pool or Dean saying "sweetheart this ain't gender studies" aren't bad things to do. Like they're often understandable character flaws based on the characters backgrounds, but they're still there.

Honestly, i’d argue that plenty of people ARE saying that dean sees women as beneath him or that sam despises the poor or vice-versa etc. but like. Hmm. this is a tv show for a narrow group of people written by an even narrower group of people and thus the show reflects the views & prejudices of the people writing them. There are moments in which we’re supposed to approve of dean’s sexism but there are also moments where we’re supposed to disapprove while simultaneously approve of or at least be okay with sam’s sexism. There are moments where we’re supposed to think sam’s being a judgy snob, but there are still others where we’re supposed to wrinkle our noses at how uncouth and lumpenprole dean is in comparison to college boy sam. And that goes for the many other -isms in the show. characters are often used as vectors for the beliefs of the writers, good or bad. It’s up to the individual how they choose to make peace with that, but the problem with this fandom is that discussions about isms get heavily wrapped up with stan wars. 

Lemme give an example. It’s incredibly common in samgirl spaces to paint dean as a homophobic neanderthal. they usually do this by taking a shitty comment from season 3 and extrapolating it until they’re talking about s15 dean as if he can’t so much as look at a gay person without threatening to kill them in that sense they’re no different to the desticule circa 2020-2023 WHOA WHO SAID THAT anyway they pretend it’s just a heehee haha jokeyjoke but like. it is 2024 and they STILL can’t engage with conversations about queer dean without talking about deangirls as if they are personally endorsing homophobia! As a result if someone points out that sam makes just as many homophobic jokes as dean does and he’s just slyer about it they flip the fuck out because they’re lowkey projecting and think you’re judging them as hard as they judge you. This is why the mildest criticisms of sam prompt an insane amount of backlash. 

(i talk a little more about this phenomenon here)

and so we come to discussions about sam and classism that feel like people trying to defend him at every turn because they sincerely think we're trying to cancel him and it's pissing me off because if we can't even suggest fictional character sam winchester is maybe a little classist how the hell are we going to address the DERANGED lvls of classism throughout this fandom. i've never been in a fandom where so many people think going to college makes a str8 person better equipped to talk about queerness than actual queer people until i joined spn fandom.

(discussions about racism/racialised misogyny get a lot more complicated and a lot more depressing than anything mentioned above so i'm not approaching that topic for now. "but-" don't care didn't ask plus i probably have more melanin than you. i don't wanna talk about it!!!)

anyway. idk what i'm saying. i think i get where the defensiveness is coming from but it's annoying. what if we just mutually agreed that we're not to blame for spn's bigotry but we also have a responsibility not to reproduce that same bigotry? what if???

EDIT: coming back a day later to say that I do agree with your assertion that a deep conversation could be enough to change them! I just think that a certain part of fandom is allergic to acknowledging ANY flaw at all and that's the biggest hurdle in these discussions.

[mieczyhale]

mace im sorry i don't have coherent thoughts but i'm so just like,,, what was klaus this season. what was ben. the cult was pointless to klaus' character. the things that matter to klaus' character were ignored. the dave stuff was a lot of nothing. i felt like the possession thing shouldve been huge for ben and klaus' relationship but we're supposed to think klaus feeling violated is funny and inconsequential? ben going to the light was just shoved in at the end? i just---what???? who??

i’m on the same page as you, anony, especially in coherency lmfao

klaus this season was.. not totally bad, but i think most of that can be put on robert for his acting and how well he knows his own character bc the writers clearly didn’t know what was up (or maybe they did and playing him off this season as comedic relief, having him tossed to the side and mistreated, is going to play into s3 somehow. idk. i’m not writing off any possibility because overall the writers have done really really well with everything else so in my soul i feel like there has to be a reason they did what they did to him this season yknow??) for all the jokes they had him making and stuff, i think robert definitely played klaus the way we as fans know him - suffering constantly but unwilling to let anyone actually see that and if they do he’s gonna make it sound like a joke. he’s not gonna act serious because that leads to pain and he’s had more than enough of that. HOWEVER. i am genuinely so so pissed that he didn’t get to fight or really use his powers this season. and the part before ben sacrifices himself where klaus finally got up the courage to try and help, the fact that he didn’t succeed - that it wasn’t klaus who saved the day - is just... sldflksd GOD I HATE IT. oh and the scene towards the end where everyone gets shot and the one remaining swede kills the handler?? THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN KLAUS. he should have come back to life as he does, as is PART OF HIS POWERS, grabbed a gun that he knows how to use well - thank you vietnam - and he should have shot the bitch. but no. we didn’t even get that. vanya got klaus’s levitation and diego got klaus’s telekinesis and klaus got ??? a cowboy hat. which i mean looks good on him and he deserves it but it doesnt make up for *gestures at everything* and tbh even that was tainted because one of the siblings says “50$ if we leave him here” when klaus runs to grab the hat. seriously??!! SERIOUSLY??! it’s not funny, it’s just more of people not caring about klaus and thinking abandoning him is a fun joke to make ANYWAY. onto things you actually mentioned sdlkdsjf;ls i think the cult wasn’t pointless to his character necessarily, i think it did provide something, but it wasn’t used to its fullest extent. we got little things like klaus talking about it making him claustrophobic and making him feel like his skin is on fire, and his followers become something he cant escape even though he desperately wants too - it’s like having the ghosts all over again except he’s sober and these are live people who can touch him. but the show never actually out loud makes that comparison when they should have. i think it would have helped the cult thing seem less random. as for the dave thing.. i don’t think it was a lot of ‘nothing’ but again i think they could have definitely done more with it. it lets klaus see dave again, in a way, and it shows us more about both of them and the relationship they had. we learn more about dave, who he is, the kind of people he had around him and the environment he grew up in. it shows us that klaus and dave talked about all kinds of things, nothing was too mundane or unimportant. it shows us that three years after dave’s death klaus is still grieving and is still 100% in love. and it shows us that klaus isn’t always as selfish as people assume right alongside another hit to the face (oof unintentional wording) of just how much he loved dave. he wanted to save dave’s life so badly he made a fool of himself, put up with homophobia, took a hit to the face, and still kept trying to stop him from enlisting even though, per the last timeline, it would mean they’d never meet. klaus is willing to have dave never know him, is willing to handle that pain and heartbreak pretty much forever, as long as dave lives. my heart literally cannot handle it the possession thing. i haven’t stopped being angry and uncomfortable and disgusted by it since i saw it like 2 days ago now. that plot the writers really fucked up on it was a big thing for their relationship but not in any way that lead to growth or understanding or power control or ANYTHING. i love ben but i have so many fucking problems with him after watching s2 that i almost wanna take my love back tbh. the writers tried to make it seem like what ben was doing was okay - because he was angry and frustrated with klaus, because klaus wasn’t doing what he wanted, because klaus couldn’t stay sober, etc. like any of that makes possessing someone without their consent okay... or threatening to possess someone the moment their guard is down (leaving klaus paranoid and afraid to sleep).. or getting permission to possess someone and then refusing to leave (and its double garbage when diego encourages ben to continue possessing klaus. diego’s reason was gross and even if he hadnt given a reason he was still encouraging ben to not give klaus’s body back to him. which like.. im sure klaus can see and hear what’s going on. so he now is aware that his brother would rather have ben-wearing-klaus than actual klaus. the amount that would fucking hurt. a nyway) klaus never really got to talk about how it made him feel, not in any situation where anyone was listening. he never got to go off on ben for what he did, and what he was about to do, even though he had every right to. ben kind of knew how klaus felt about it but he showed very clearly that he didnt care. ben just did not fucking care about klaus this season. and it wasnt a ‘tough love’ thing like they tried to do in s1. it was just horrible and it hurt to watch. and i feel like s2 ben wouldnt have apologized to klaus even if he had been seriously confronted. we now know that klaus has this power. and we know that it can easily be abused by someone else. and i feel like that could tie into his ability to make the ghosts corporeal and such. it could definitely work as an interesting lead into exploring more of his many powers. and it could have worked as a way to bring ben and klaus closer without anyone getting hurt or violated. but.. for s2.. it wasnt used that way. it was used as a way to degrade and humiliate klaus. and they clearly wanted us to find it funny. it was one of the least funny things to happen all season. actually probably THE least funny thing. right along with nobody giving a shit when they thought klaus was having a seizure or OD-ing (both during their meeting with reginald and in the alley when they were supposed to meet up to use the briefcase five got from the handler), AND OF COURSE  nobody taking klaus seriously, paying attention to him, or caring about him (except for allison at some points) and ben finally going into the light at the end..  was kind of shoved in?? but i think what made it feel that way, for me at least, wasn’t so much the placement or timing of it but that it wasn’t really acknowledged afterwards?? it just.. happened, and we were all heartbroken, and on screen... nothing. it felt like a very sudden end to his storyline and yeah they could have done a little more to make it feel like a natural end for him thanks for the ask and sharing your thoughts on s2 with me~!! <3

[its-mellohi]

okay!!! you have a lot of good points but i also wanna address some things from my own perspective because i love these kinda discussions :D

1. The Pogtopia """betrayal""" - lets talk about it.

technoblade was against government, and made it Abundantly clear, and its fun and all, but tommy and the rest of the citizens have never, ever, even once, stated that they wanted to overall just destroy l'manberg. in fact, tommy+tubbo+niki got upset multiple times when it was mentioned. it was maybe just wilbur, and even he hesitated on that in the beginning when they were allies... they took down a tyrant, and yeah they shouldve held an election instead of ignoring citizens like fundy and appointing whoever they wanted in charge (tubbo), which was wilbur's mistake, but would technoblade have felt better with an election??? no he would've destroyed the place anyway. and the citizens didnt even do anything wrong!! why were THEY robbed of all their hard work?

they were never on the same page and techno's hatred for government overshadowed a lot of characters' need for stability, a home, a community. which so many of them had been losing over and over again.

he convinced himself he was betrayed, but what was he promised? what did he expect?? and then he left everyone of his own accord, and went into retirement..... a retirement, which a lot of us technoblade viewers wanted him to have, we wanted him to have some peace sure, but try to logically apply that to literally ANY realistic situaiton ever lmao.. hes a war criminal. i dont think laws let war criminals go have a cute little hut in the snow..

AND 2. when he """died"""

he was collecting wither heads- way before phil's house arrest, way before the butcher army came, he was still prepared for destruction. and then HE DIDNT EVEN DIE lmao at worst they just took his stuff and harrassed him a bit, and then he went back, released a few more withers with tommy, got a few hostages, and got his stuff back in a couple of days. and after all that he STILL has 3 hearts, meaning literally everyone else lost more than him. when he killed everyone at the festival, sure he was peer pressured but he never showed any remorse or regret, again thinking he lost the most out of that.

and tubbo made mistakes, obviously, but we're not talking about him rn so imma push him aside. he was being manipulated, wasnt respected by his own people, and lost a lot, so i cant hold anything against him more than acknowledgement of his mistakes. phil's house arrest is probably the thing that burned the most, but id hardly call that a character breaking point- it only strengthened his hatred for l'manberg. which was 100% deserved, but not what i want yet.

3. "he lost his trust in everyone"... is a good point op. I agree on that one. he has been alone, for a long time, isolated from everyone. but still, not... quite what i was talking about in terms of a breaking point

as for the advantages, someone else explained it better than me but s2 has been really way too focused on pvp skills and power, unlike s1 which centered on debates, and beliefs, and trades, and negotiations, etc.. i cant express how much i loved the fact that dream was put away not by pvp, but my everyone caring enough to be there for tommy and tubbo.

and techno is no where NEAR the same as dream, but hes been benefitting from this change because no one has had anything on him. no one can hurt him in any meaningful way, except for pre-prison dream and now thats gone.

phil: still loyal and there for him, and every other friends only left because he wanted to destroy their homes,,, carl: emphasis on almost died, same way techno almost died.. its always almost, never enough to actually hurt or change his approach to others, never enough to make him realize how much he hurt them the same way they hurt him.

in season 3 i want major character development from mr. technoblade please and thank you

[sarcastic-doodle]

Epic rant ahead. In response to your comment on my post about jlockers in our tag @chinchillanna

I’d say something scathing cause this post was meant for the wankers but if you’ve never done it don’t take unnecessary offence. You don’t know how irritating it is from this side of the fandom. As for the rest, I’d say it’s a matter of difference in opinion of ships.

Unhealthy?- dont even open that bag of worms i dont even need to answer it.

One sided relationship? - I don’t thinks mutually caring for the other could be called one sided. we’ve had gradual growth in their friendship throughout the series please progress as the episodes do

hating himself for lying to her - it was definitely sherlock coming to terms with his feelings for Molly. First one was forced he doesn’t like being manipulated under duress but the second one was genuine he looks torn(he doesn’t look like he’s hating himself)that he had to say out loud the words he didn’t want to acknowledge. Though I’d give you this, this scene does depend on the vantage point of the viewer (aka. Shipper in this case) We’ve spent as much time on our ship as you’ve done on yours. Our assumptions/hc are just as valid as yours are. So don’t go around disregarding something that has more context than your subtext.

weak-dependent? - Molly? Are you serious?She is probably the sanest and the most level headed person on the show albeit with a soft spot for the detective but please don’t even say she isn’t strong?! Maybe it’s just me but Irrevocably loving someone doesn’t make you simpering or weak. Honestly it’s a quality I’ve always admired. Sort of like parental affection, I’d say genuine selfless unconditional love is something we’re always shortchanged in life. Its so easy to be selfish and just as difficult to be selfless and giving. And that’s only an inkling of a reason why I’ve always loved Molly. She is so much more than that. You say she deserves better- and yes she does - from you and everyone who claims she deserves better and then look down at her for exhibiting a human frailty which she transformed into an quiet integral strength - a vulnerability too (her boon and bane) that she is so well known for. Do you even realise how rare people like Molly IRL are? The unquestioning pillars of support without the assurance of it being a familial obligation? Hint : Very.

Damn right we will rejoice. Just like jlock did with the hug and adl0ck did with TLD.You know why? Because we love her for what she is,exactly how she is . Without judgement. She deserves the best because she is the best of people. I doubt anyone shipped sherlolly hard in s1 cos let’s be honest sherlock was a dick and molly needed to stop being mousey and frankly it always felt like infatuation nothing deeper that it later became. They needed personal growth which they got and you can’t possibly associate the people/relationship that used to be uptil this episode. They’ve changed. They’re interactions have evolved. Sherlock’s getting better with people too. And believe me nothing but the best for Molly. She is that sort of character. Unfortunately the writers only ever write her in the script in lieu of her affection of sherlock so if pansyboy is what makes her happy THEN pansyboy it is. take that into consideration too.

So no it wasn’t ‘fake’ or ‘forced’ in my opinion. I’m not saying it was the love confession I hoped for(I’d rather have it without the theatrics ) but it was certainly apt considering the shows premise of sentimental entanglement. Just the right amount of angst

So instead of dissing a ship on a post meant to call out people disregarding common courtesy (well hello exhibit A) you should probably- I honestly have nothing nice to say.

My ship is just as awesome as yours. My ship is just as ridiculous as yours. My ship is just as canon as yours(I might be biased but an I Love You does mean a lot more than a hug)(the hug - JL being my BrOtp I always saw that scene as a friend consoling a grieving friend…but as a shipper you might have perceived it in an entire different context.) See difference in opinions between different ship shippers. Although bashing and demeaning other ships because you were disappointed it didnt go your way is totally uncalled for.

P.S : It’s pretty obvious in the fandom that MoffTiss can’t write a female char a decent script without a dark/dead undertone to it. So honestly nobody had high hopes for proper female representation on the script. Its certainly better than the previous seasons but only marginally . In their defense they did promise a great crime drama starring SH and JW which they more than just delivered on. Canon Molly and Sherlolly isn’t as superficial and one dimensional as you think they are. They are more than just a CoolBoy/ShyGirl stereotype.Don’t dump your script-al(?) woes on the ship. Its just a fictional show and a fictional ship. Take it with a pinch of salt.Byeee