#the trolls have 9 times more interesting relationship drama than the alpha kids and also have 80 more interesting and cool things going on

[maretriarch]

(thinks about the trolls for even one second) why would anyone give a fuck about the alpha kids ever

[applestorms]

questions of pacing aside, i actually think the progression from one set of kids to the next in homestuck is quite good, and also at least in part explains why the comic shifts so heavily into the more blood-based relationship/character dynamic focus in Act 6 and onward, as opposed to the more breath-based plot emphasis that was more present in the first half.

the most basic way you can see this is in how the characters age over the course of the story, actually. you start off with the beta kids--13 years old, four humans, related by blood even if not explicitly stated from the start--who generally stick to the plot and keep away from the relationship drama. john doesn't seem particularly interested in romance other than through celebrity crushes and as a plot point in his movies, rose is (presumably) confident in her lesbianism and doesn't converse w/ jade enough in-canon to push much of a dynamic there. dave is the main one that very obviously (and, imo, cutely. d'aww) has a crush on all of his friends, but his latent internalized homophobia (and the uncomfortably Freudian implications of the Other One) means that jade is the only real candidate he can pursue. jade herself ends up being into the idea too, so there ends up not being much of a struggle anyways, at least at the beginning.

the trolls are also 13 years/6 sweeps old, but notably they're coming from an entirely different social context, one that pushes the necessity of relationships much more strongly (note the underlying "fuck or die" implications of the imperial drones). there's also 12 of them, meaning a lot more potential options for romance, not to mention the 4 quadrants for pursuing it in the first place. fitting, then, that the introduction of the leader-ly blood player adds more romantic drama to the story.

karkat bitches about his fears of troll/human sloppy makeouts enough that the story was destined to devolve into some degree of that at some point, but the rapidly rising number of troll/human interactions in A5A2 in general was bound to add to the already present interpersonal drama that drove a lot of A5A1. even looking past the burgeoning powerhouse that is rosemary at this point in the story, terezi, dave, & karkat have enough drama amongst themselves to power a fucking rocket, and that's before you add people like vriska, jade, & john into the mix.

so by the time you get to the alphas it really doesn't surprise me that so much of the plot of their early pages revolves around The Jakestakes and it's corresponding drama. the kids are also 15 going on 16 and a lot more explicitly horny by this point (bound to happen w/ the smuppets & blue women, roxy's overwhelming Thirst aside), pushed to new levels by the similarly new levels of isolation almost every character is surrounded by. the kids want interpersonal connection, and it seems natural to me considering the (human) Society they're coming from that they would default to romance at this age, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are actually interested in it. (i see you, aromantic jake headcanons.)

the same thing happens with the dancestors, actually, who are probably the most explicitly horny set of characters in the comic iirc? or at the very least, the ones who have the most canon basis for that kind of relationship history, even considering how little they show up in general. i see this as a combination of both being around 19 years/9 sweeps old and being stuck in the dream bubbles, honestly. what else is there to do but delve into a bunch of nuanced relationship drama and awkward post-death situationships, really? (unless you're cronus, of course.)

but anyways, alongside the age difference resulting in more relationship drama, there's another thing the progression lends itself to: identity crises!

this is maybe less clear in the dancestors, but it's definitely clear for the first three groups. where the beta kids all have fairly distinct, natural identities revolving around their interests (maybe more strongly stated in the case of dave & rose, fitting considering their level of maturity in comparison to the prospit kids), a lot more of the trolls are concerned with the Image they project out into the world. take rose's pre-grimdark interest in the occult & psychoanalysis, fairly genuine interests i think that do shape her identity into something fairly distinct, in comparison to the fucking Lifestyle Choices of vriska & terezi with their respective mindfang & redglare roleplay. not all the trolls are that level of dedicated so they make for a smoother transition from the betas, but there's definitely a lot stronger of a theme of personal reflection & identity within the trolls, especially in how they view/treat their ancestors.

the alpha kids take this to another level, which again i think is fitting considering their age. the alphas are a bunch of fucking liars, yes, but the key thing to note here is that when they lie to themselves, it's probably just cause they don't really know who they are yet? like, dirk is certainly Aware of some core, unchangeable parts of himself, yes-- but none of these kids have really gotten the chance to figure out who they are yet. when roxy talks about being a sick haxxor bitch, or dirk about being a multitasking, hyper-competent puppet master, or jake about being A Goddamn Adventurer-- they're playing with costumes. they're rp-ing, and trying to figure out who they actually are in the process, what parts they're willing to show the world and what parts they're more inclined to hide. even jane (or perhaps especially jane?) is just fitting herself into the role she's been placed under since childhood.

this is one idea i think the epilogues/post-canon content really missed in its interpretation of the alphas. these kids aren't uniquely terrible, their relationship drama is not world ending (despite how it may feel. looking at you A6A5A1x2), they are not harboring some exclusive seed of evil deep within them. i honestly think that if you had chucked the john/vriska/terezi/karkat/dave/jade love hexagon from hell into a different context it would look no different to the alphas' English Sweepstakes.

which kinda leads to my final point, actually: the third thread. miscommunication.

communication gets more and more obtuse the further along in the story you go. i feel like i've mentioned this before, but hussie really starts taking advantage of the medium of pesterlogs the further in you get w/ the whole concept of Biased Narrators (also see: doc scratch, homosuck), which is part of the reason why i think the story gets more and more misread the further into it you get as people skim more and pay the price even harder.

prospit/derse differences about directly vs. indirectly saying what you mean aside, the kids get more and more cagey as the story progresses. this development is actually the clearest imo when you look at how it goes from the beta kids (friends talking to friends) -> trolls (online strangers, ready to fuck w/ you but ultimately sympathetic in their own right) -> doc scratch (literally just an internet predator). as who you're talking to online increases in potential danger, so too must the required level of Fuckery.

caliborn might be a little shit w/ some violent tendencies & questionable taste in art when he's talking to the alphas (in particular, dirk & jake), but he's also the future (V)illain of The Comic and shouldn't be taken too lightly. at the very least, the power that he and calliope both have over the story as a whole is nothing to scoff at.

as much as it doesn't feel like it at first, the alphas take a lot of the themes previously established surrounding the more personal/emotional/relationship-oriented aspects of the beta kids & trolls and crank it up to 11. everything just feels so much more intense, even if the game mechanics and plot shit is dialed down significantly in turn. it's no wonder A6A5A2 (the tricksters) and A6A5A1x2 (the conversation on the quest beds) play out the way they do-- i mean, those two acts alone basically sum up the Entire dynamic of the alphas & all of their interpersonal problems in one big dramatic swoop. more lonely, more longing, more confused about who they are and who they love and who they want to be. the alphas got it all.

[becquerel]

Basically: This is how I would change Homestuck's entire last half of the comic. (AKA: How To Remove Dancestors, a Step by Step Tutorial.)

Note: Before I start, I don't hate the Dancestors. It's just easier to solve a lot of the writing problems if you remove them entirely, and have to reverse engineer solutions from that. Also, this is literally how /I/ would change things in Homestuck’s storytelling. I’d love to hear your feelings on this! At this point I have been working on this for twelve or so hours straight, and I'm not suuuuuper happy with some portions, but oh well!

1. Everything up until the end of Act 6 Act 2 stays the same. This was all genuinely good writing, and the plot makes sense here. I'll be working from the around the Middle of Act 6 Intermission 3, right before we first meet Meenah.

2. We don't use the Dancestors. No Openbound. We use already dead beta trolls to have the argument in the dream bubble, it isn't that hard to imagine Feferi getting mad and fighting with the other trolls. Plus, even in moments where characters fight Meenah for being a version of the Condesce... it's really not that hard for the same thing to happen to Feferi, considering she was supposed to be the heiress and all.

3. For the rest of this, the Alpha Kid session happens the mostly same, as well as the non-Bubble moments of the meteor. I don't really have any problems with either of those excluding the Alpha's sprites, which we'll get to in a bit.

4. During the troll fight in the dream bubble, it is revealed that the dead trolls gathered are all the only god tiered version of themselves. The living trolls on the meteor were never destined to God-tier or something like that, and that's why the living versions of them are the most powerful, or whatever. Is it particularly good writing? No. Is it better than dealing with Dancestors? Yes.

5. At the end of the troll fight, we see LE absolutely fucking decimate a dream bubble. Karkat is the one to be like, wait what the fuck, you guys can double die? And everyone else is like yes of course that is literally what LE is doing. This starts a section I would like to call Karquest because I think that sounds funny. Openbound but with Karkat and Beta trolls. He just finds different iterations of them to ask to join an army against LE. No ministrife, unfortunately, but we do get to see at least a decent amount of Ministrife's outfits through this.

6. Caliborn's stuff is generally the same still. Gamzee helps him, he shoots shit, Hussie is his guide-person. Same for PM and Bec Noir.

7. It is revealed there are multiple Vriskas, and the self that dies when you god tier is still a dead self. The Vriska who died when god tiering in her session, the eyepatch and robot arm one, you know the one, is wandering through the sands of the Void with Tavros. They're still doing the treasure map searching. Hussie still happens, unfortunately, but he gets kicked off of a cliff or some shit. Tavros and John still fight for the Life Ring, and the scene with the treasure maps happens generally the same.

8. Back at the alpha kid session, everything is mostly the same. Everything happens as previously, including Trickster mode and the relationship drama. The only difference is the sprites, ARquius is the same, but Jake's becomes GrandFeferisprite - a combination of Grandma English's ashes and Feferi, Roxy's becomes Eridansprite - Wizard fiction and Eridan combined - a sprite that discusses Wizard Fiction with Roxy ad nauseum, and finally Jane's becomes Nepetasprite - She doesn’t get a chance to combine with anything else. Grandfeferi ends up being as much of an enigma as Nannasprite, and provides as much help as she does, as well. Baking, but with computers this time. Eridansprite is also generally more mellowed out, as he’s finally allowed to talk about his interests and become what he wanted before he died, since he combined with Wizard Fiction.

9. The rest of the Alpha session continues as before, getting to the point when the alpha kids god tier, HOWEVER, this time when the Condesce and Jack fight the alphas, Grandfeferi and Eridansprite give at least somewhat of a fight, with Grandfeferi fighting the Condesce in a Tyrian fight for the throne, as well as finishing unfinished business with Grandma English, and Eridansprite fights Jack. They both get knocked into the furthest ring, but it gives enough time for Jade to teleport the alphas to the meteor. The Condesce uses Vriska’s mind powers, because using two powers simultaneously is stupid fucking OP and Jade has more uses later, and Jade simply passes out on the ground near the broken fenestrated wall. The shenanigans on the golden ship with Davesprite, Jaspers, and Nanna still happen. John is still passed out as well.

10. Out in the furthest ring, the pirate crew is assembled. It is still the god tier versions of the trolls, with Feferi’s god-tier self discussing with eyepatch Vriska and John. Jade appears next, and roughly mentions her appearing at the ship must be because of John’s Breath powers. Jade is used as the audience stand-in for all the characters to explain what is happening. Vriska begins explaining the team is uniting all of the extra ghost selves in the dream bubbles into an army to fight Lord English, and find the weapon that is able to defeat him.

11. Jade openly doubts Vriska being able to assemble all of these people, which is when god-tier Vriska flies down onto the boat. The Vriskas explain that they joined forces to mind control a decent amount of trolls. John then stops Vriska, pointing out that Karkat is the one leading, and has been getting the most powerful versions of the trolls in the rebellion. The army is made of Volunteers, mind control victims, and trolls just following along.

12. God tier Feferi is reminded of the Cherubs, and does the Aranea spiel on Calliope. Feferi and Sollux switch between each other to tell the full story of the Cherubs. Holy shit I forgot how wordy Aranea was when I first read this, dear god. The story ends, because Feferi and Sollux get annoyed with how long it is, christ.

13. Back on the meteor, the alphas have to deal with meeting the meteor crew for real this time, and it reads somewhat awkward. There’s no way around this. Terezi never went into a Kismessitude with Gamzee, because he got stuffed into a fridge by Rose in a drunken rage instead, after he had destroyed one of her writings. He got kicked off into Paradox Space somewhere along the line, and got his cod-tier outfit in the dream bubbles that way. I forgot I had to deal with writing what Gamzee does, not gonna lie. Also, Roxy finds Rose and is visibly upset to find Rose completely hammered, and runs off to the other part of the meteor. Kanaya finds this interesting, and follows Roxy along, as she is annoyed with Rose’s drinking problem as well.

14. After Caliborn does his session shenanigans, the Pirate crew locate the cave of the Treasure. Dialogue happens, and Aradia still gets her famous “I want to see what happens when this whole place breaks apart” line. The realization of the rings of Void and Life happens, John still thinks some trolls may be too dangerous to resurrect, especially considering Vriska has been using extras in the undead army to use as cannon fodder for LE to distract him. Tension.

15. Back to the meteor, and we have to sit through the awkward sitting of Dirk and Dave having to talk. They do their 20 questions style game. Jane wandered off to find Roxy, and finds her in a conversation with Kanaya about what Alternia is like and comparing it to apocalyptic Earth. She decides not to interrupt. Jake finds Karkat. This devolves into Movie Arguments.

16. Back with sleeping Jade, Viceroy Bubbles von Salamancer summons her own skullamander army. She is guarding Jade’s body, just in case some empress gets any funny ideas.

17. With the pirate crew, Jade flips open the chest, dumps the Juju, and is confused. John sticks his hand in, and gets his new OP powers. They are not retcon powers, because that is unnecessary and makes about ¾ of the story worthless. He yanks his hand out, and disappears in a flash of white. Jade tries to wake up to follow him, but finds she cannot.

18. Back with John sleeping on the golden ship, John wakes up, sees the sprites, then disappears into a similar white flash as before.

19. I physically cannot bring myself to change anything that happens with Spades Slick, Ms. Paint, and the Felt. Legitimately some of the best parts of the comic to me. That entire sequence stays the same.

20. John still goes through all of the same panels he does in the original comic, but this time parts of the story are visibly different than what they were shown originally, for example: the sky changes to a different color, or a character is replaced by another entirely. John ends up back at the golden ship at the very end, sitting with the sprites and Sleeping Jade.

21. Intermission of Gamzee running around in dream bubbles, collecting necessary items.

22. Pirate Crew: Everyone has made their way out of the treasure cove, now back at the ships. Jade is holding onto the treasure, but admits she has a feeling she needs to be somewhere else. Karkat then appears, saying he fell asleep after a very intense and draining battle of words. Jade is happy to see him, gives him the treasure, then teleports away. Karkat seems lost on whatever the fuck is happening, then is caught up to speed by the remaining pirate members.

23. Jade’s teleportation leads her to alt!Calliope. Calliope was using the green sun to call for Jade, like a dog being led by a bone. Jade expresses anger over the dehumanization, but Calliope answers that it’s not important right now, and that since Jade finally answered, it’s finally her time to come out of the Void. More or less, this is the same interaction as alpha Calliope and alt!Calliope, but with Jade replacing alpha Calliope. As Jade is leaving, she runs into the alpha Calliope who died to her brother. Jade begins to offer Calliope a chance to leave this area of the void, not realizing this Calliope is dead, but is awoken by alpha Calliope telling her not yet.

24. At the meteor, Rose, Roxy, and Kanaya are all sitting around a table. Substance abuse discussion. I’d write more here, but frankly I don’t… know enough to handle this topic with grace (lol), but basically it’s a discussion that is bittersweet and lots of tears. Near the end, Kanaya brings up the topic of the Matriorb and how Roxy could make one. Roxy cube time.

25. Jade wakes up, breaking the Vriska sleep the Condesce had put over her with Calliope’s help. At this point, the meteor is close enough that Jade teleports all of the players down to the golden ship, then shrinks the meteor overall. Strategy hours.

26. Jade briefs everyone on everything that has happened so far, and mentions the cherub girl she saw in her dream. Roxy identifies her as Calliope, and states she is dead. Discussions of who Calliope is happen. John offers the ring of Life to Roxy for Calliope. The sprites start drifting into the discussion, with all sprites sans Grandfeferi and Eridansprite present. Davesprite gets bumped into Nepetasprite. Davepetasprite^2 happens. This is my fanfiction-esque rewrite so I do what /I/ want.

27. Roxy teleportation to Calliope after receiving directions from Jade. Calliope revival.

28. Karkat wakes up, and joins the living in their fight. Dead Vriska uses the Weapon. I’m very bad at battle strategy, which leads us to:

29. Collide 2: I’m so sad I couldn't make Jasprosesprite^2 happen. I really did not want to deal with Retcons. Grandfeferisprite and Eridansprite get to help out the ghost army with Davepeta, though.