#the st dlc is the only one i have

[senseiwu]

Tbh I felt more chemistry between that cheerleader and eddie than steve and eddie 🧍‍♂️

[oflorelei]

My Problem is:

That it's a let down. Listen I am not mad or horrible dissapointed over that Radahn is there (although sigh i wished we would have gotten that Age of Abundance/Compassion man). I am not mad that he is apparently a puppets and that miquella is apparently the villain from the shadows. I'm mad that they hyped this DLC up so hard, using Miquella's character, which they know to be shrouded in mystery and HYPE, made it appear that we may have the chance to join him/get betrayed by him, made people belief he SPECIFALLY seeks out the tarnished or multiple tarnished at once (to help him?)- that he is the central figure of this DLC when he is not. And thats not an underestimation.

Miquella, most fearsome of the Empyreans, the 'father' of the Halligtree, beloved by near all, who "[...]wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. (There is nothing more terrifying.)" - does not even have his own bossfight.

No, he is basically just a cape for a boss we already fought to a DLC that costs 40€. He is in the promotion arc, he is said to be a central figure, he is said to be the fearsome empyrean of all. One thing he isnt? Apparently worth the time of day.

I am ok with Miquella being turned into a villain, I am not ok with Miquella being turned into a joke.

There were so so many roads they could have taken with him, he was PROMISING in every regard.

Want to make him a Villain? Fine the reason can be:

=> Manipulation/Enchanting for people to love him (to ensure someone will always look out for him)

-not absolutely evil per say- and it makes sense that someone who is stuck in the body of a child might want to count on many people rather then one person to protect them = it is his weapon to wield affection

- still takes away free will, even consent to some degree

=> Formless mothers influence

- do i even need to explain this one lmao

- already thousands of theories before this DLC thought that miquella might have been negatively influenced by her- especially when so many things in this Game revolve around blood and the power of it

=> "for the greater good" ahh ending

- 'the means justify the end' mentality (maybe even allign with the manipulation and enchanting)

-would be a similar situation to ranni and could mirror it- not the best but also not horrible

=> St. Trina is Miquella's Radagon

- Miquella splitting slowly with the golden order & turning his back to the easier path & planning behind the shadows to change how Things have been? Yeah maybe St. Trina could have been to Miquella what Radagon was to Marika (a guard dog, keeping her checked (sry but i genuinely believe Radagon returned bc Marika started to stray)).

-could also have explored how marika had to deal with it & her relationship to her other self => player could maybe decide who they wished to serve

=> the curse drives mad

- being stuck in the body of a child when you are a grown adult mentally is pure eldritch horror imo, it is not only physically but chances are high it could cause deeper psychological issues

- when grief drove marika mad it can drive miquella mad to that despite everything he does, being so prodigal, does not help and helplessness of it all too

- bc no one can help and no one can understand him

- he is stuck in a body that is his, and yet its the body of a past him, something he should have outgrown, something that belongs to the past- and (IMO) he can not fight truly in his body, not even to defend himself- having to constantly rely on people for your protection when you are an incredible independent creature? Horrible

- while not the most climatic- would it be truly unthinkable that miquella maybe just..gave up? That it drove him mad with grief to realize he spends his life searching for a cure that might not even exist?

- again thats more then a 'what if' then realistic like the rest of the list but i just love the horror adult mind child body

Want to make him a good guy? Fine the reason can be:

=> He is described so. He knew that he would be the next god & took responsibility.

- Miquella created the Haligtree, feed by his OWN blood (which takes far longer and more energy then just using bodies) or all that are rejected by the golden order, he is compassionate & kind. He is protective and by gods above he does want to help, he does break away from the golden order when he realizes they are not what they seem

-With ranni not wanting to become the successor and Malenia cursed with the rot it only leaves Miquella open, he would have been aware of it

- He is already a 'big' brother, caring for malenia, caring for all who were considered Misfits such as the Albinauric & Misbegotten, providing a sanctuary and hope

- Miquella is described as kind, as compassionate someone who basically does wish to bring a change and is ready to self sacrifice for the better

There are many more but guys im so so tired and need to nap. In short: its incredible to me how you can make a Character that had potential for all possible sides (good, evil, inbetween) so bland, his arc and journey feel like white toastbread, his relationship to his beloved sister malenia seems fake, he doesnt appear to be an adult trapped in a body of a child but as simply put an idiot who is all about "me me me me" & then doesnt even get a bossfight.

Im not mad it was written, i am made there was zero thought or reasoning put behind it, when there were so so many options to make it good. Its sorta fascinating that somehow no one likes this ending, not the Radahn Fans, Nor the Miquella or Malenia Fans..idk man. Having feelings about this.

Also im really bummed we didnt get a cutscene were the tarnished touches Miquella's arm to travel like- man.

Also sorry for the grammar/spelling or maybe even logic errors i just needed to vent ngl

[espace--positif]

This image from the third Elden Ring Book of Knowledge on SOTE has been circulating, and people are citing it as proof that Radahn was a willing participant in Miquella's plans. I don't think these words can serve as definitive proof, and I maintain that Radahn was controlled by Miquella. Here's why.

Image credits: @/Siofra_Mariner on Twitter

To me, the words "their order" and "their cause" don't prove that Radahn is united with Miquella by choice. These deliberate words make me think of Leda's group, Those United in Common Cause, who end up at odds with each other when Miquella's charm inevitably breaks. I think that that very same influence is being alluded to here, with Miquella having used his influence to control Radahn and join him to his cause.

The words "Miquella will intervene once again" imply that Miquella has to fight against some form of natural current, has to change the course of fate, in order to succeed (or try to succeed) at defeating the Lord of the Old Order; to me, the first time he intervened and changed the course of fate is referred to in the first paragraph, where they detail his resurrection of Radahn's body, free of scarlet rot. The text also refers to Radahn's "deserved rest" - again implying that Miquella's resurrection and use of Radahn is somewhat unnatural and morally wrong. If Radahn truly were a willing participant, I don't think that it would have been referred to this way. The story of one intervening with another's fate ironically occurs earlier in the base game, with Radahn stilling Ranni's fate by holding back the stars.

Next, I want to talk about, guess what, more wording.

"Miquella's wish to instill Radahn as his Promised Consort upon his ascent to godhood, a promise he made to Radahn in their childhood."

Note that the wish is Miquella's wish, not Miquella and Radahn's wish, not their collective wish. The word promise is also interesting if we look at the way Miquella uses the word in the DLC dialogue, and towards whom it's directed.

"I promise you, a thousand year voyage, guided by compassion."

Miquella says this to the Tarnished when they are grabbed. Two grabs, and the Tarnished gets their "Heart Stolen", charmed by Miquella forevermore. The Tarnished is resistant, and this is one way through which Miquella deals with resistance.

To Miquella, promises and vows are not shared agreements, but they are the way he enacts his will and influence upon others. They are unidirectional, assured, and a means to an end. His compassion extends to all, but strips all free will, and Radahn's is no exception.

A few notes that didn't fit into any of the above points:

This is my interpretation of the game and the text, and I always enjoy reading other people's interpretations. I think that's the great thing about Elden Ring's ambiguous lore; there can be many readings, and we'll really never know which are right.

I'm very biased when it comes to the topic of Miquella's desecration of both Radahn and Mohg, one in body, and one in soul - I feel like it really cemented how wrong Miquella ended up turning after abandoning all those aspects of himself in the Land of Shadow, and I felt all kinds of icky and sad when I finished the DLC because of this. St. Trina's being discarded and her death was devastating, especially when she was one of the most human and compassionate characters in Elden Ring, granting respite to all the frenzied merchants out of true compassion.

I do believe that Miquella is a victim of the cycle, though, and that he lost himself in more ways than one after witnessing what happened to his mother. To Miquella, the only way to make people stop doing horrible things is to stop them from doing anything of their own volition at all. In theory, it works. But it is so sad. I'm reminded of Melina's dialogue when you choose to inherit the frenzied flame: "However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?" I sympathize with Miquella, I really do. I understand that he did all this because he not find any alternatives. The world being comprised of cyclical happenings that one person cannot fix is a recurring theme in Souls in general, and Miquella is just another victim of another cycle, which ends up begetting more violence, much like the violence enacted on Marika which prompted Miquella to try and fix things in the first place.

That’s it! I really needed to get this off my chest, and it definitely didn’t fit into a tweet (which is where all the discourse is happening lol). If you made it to the bottom of this yap, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well! Thanks for reading my ramblings <3

[indexvirus]

So, what do we think about this?

It's actually strange how, the more I read into SotE, the more I feel Miquella is not intentionally evil.

It's ironic. Before the DLC, my headcanon pretty much was him having Griffith-esque themes, wanting to make his own Falconia.

And now when the DLC has come out with all it implies, I feel I'm wrong. I feel increasingly there is a "tragic misunderstanding of one's own self and limits" leading to "end justifies the means" to "road to hell is paved with good intentions" here.

SotE doesn't undo Miquella's kindness.

He very much is still the character who grew frustrated with the uselessness of the Golden Order when it offered no deliverance for his suffering sister (Radagon's Ring of Light),

who fed his own blood to a sapling in hopes it would grow into a new Erdtree and provide a haven for the outcast (Haligtree Knight Armour, Old Albus Dialogue, Royal Knight Helm),

who developed unalloyed gold to ward off effects of outer gods such as the frenzied flame (Unalloyed Gold Needle, Note: Miquella's Needle),

and who wished to free Godwyn of his suffering (Golden Epitaph).

Miquella observes, learns and improves upon. What did he learn to make the decisions he did? To take the same path his mother took, inspired by the suffering inflicted on those dear to them, believing firmly the sacrifices would "fix the world".

Both made a promise/vow/prayer we never hear fully (Final Cutscene, Golden Braid).

The suffering of the Tarnished, of Godfrey, of the Misbegotten and the Omen for peace and order. The suffering of the Haligtree, of Malenia, of Radahn and Mohg, for equality and compassion.

Marika separated Radagon from herself, but love was what broke her, so Miquella separated St. Trina from himself and divested himself of his love.

But unlike Marika, who realized the mistakes she'd made and chose to defy the Greater Will, and Radagon who stayed delusionally loyal, it was Miquella who was delusional, and St. Trina who realized what a terrible mistake was in the making and what terrible mistakes had already been made...

St. Trina is Miquella. This is him asking "Make me stop, don't let me become a god, you must kill me, grant me forgiveness". At some point he realized what he'd done and only death would grant him forgiveness for it...

For what kind of a god would he become when he'd abandoned all he'd promised to save.

[wordslikesilver]

Wait. Oh my god I just. Something clicked and I need to be held now. St Trina is supposed to represent the part of Miquella that was able to heal others, genuinely and truly heal them, such that even the sickness would kneel and swear loyalty to her, for taking away its pain and misery (source: putrescent knight). Miquella’s needle represents a stop gap. A way of holding back and shielding one from the influence of outer gods. Pure, unalloyed kindness that can relieve you of even the pain of the scarlet rot, so long as it remains within you.

So when… when Malenia ripped out the needle… and sacrificed all her pride, honour and humanity in order to let the scarlet flower bloom in her fight with Radahn to guarantee her victory no matter the cost (Millicent is her humanity trying to return to herself, she is literally the rejection of the scarlet rot that Malenia feels, ejected from her body during the first blooming, I’ve gotta do a whole post on Millicent because she’s a fascinating character study with world building context of the DLC added)…

Doesn’t that mean she ripped out the literal kindness she felt from her own brother in order to do what she did? Dude wtf hold me. But wait it’s even worse because not only can she no longer feel her brother’s kindness protecting her, she didn’t have anyone or any way to put back the rot goddess. Unless… it was Finlay. Because as stated by putrescent knight’s remembrance, to be loved is to be healed (St Trina is Miquella’s love). So not only did Finlay carry the Scarlet Bloom all the way back to the Haligtree from Caelid, when Malenia awoke alone without her brother there anymore to help her heal making her bloom all over again, Finlay stepped in to help save her from herself. To be loved is to be healed. And Malenia was definitely both loved and healed because when we find her… she’s asleep. And St Trina, saint of healing and sleep, is love.

ELDEN RING LESBIANS CONFIRMED???

[zafulz]

Regarding SotE's ending.

Spoilers ahead, rant.

I'm a dissappointed on the fandom always wanting to take sides for the most nuanced narratives ever written in games, sometimes it feels like we play different games at all. They want to excuse other demigods and put the blame on the ones who wanted to changed the status quo, when we all should realize how the Greater Will and the Outer Gods had influence and have been the ones to actually be playing chess with their tragic fates. Radahn and Morgott wanted to keep and perpetuate Marika's / Golden Order rule, Miquella, Ranni and Rykard wanted to get rid of all the Gods (using the Stars/Moon, destroying gods or becoming God themselves), and Mogh, Malenia and Godwyn had their fates taken by Outer Gods/Plots. They were all played and incited by the horrors of Marika, under the Greater Will. Remember that Marika shattered the Elden Ring to rebel against the Greater Will due to all the grief and most recently Godwyn's death, so we can guess she realized too late.

Then, it surprises me how easy we are to label Miquella as a villain without taking all that into the equation. The game changers, following up Ranni's statements, were only Miquella, Malenia (as she was almost ready to become a goddess even before Miquella), and her. Ranni, probably the one who knew all of Marika's record and was already done with the situation of her family and the Lands Between, started this first with killing Godwyn. Miquella just could not keep at delaying the facts during the time he tried to revive his brother and revert his twin curse, leading to despising the Greater Will and deciding to ascend having learned the horrors of the Lands of Shadow and the current state of the Lands Between. The actions taken by them can't be honestly judged at certain human moral standpoint, since we are talking of literal demigods, SOME of them supporting the current status quote where Omens, Demi Humans, Albinaurics, Giants where OBLITERATED to keep the Golden Order's rule. The DLC covers the process in which Miquella decided to walk the same path as Marika, probably for similar "better world" goals, but Marika just followed the Greater Will. Miquella decided to become a god and strip himself from all essence, without any guidance. Is not a mending rune to keep the Elden Ring somehow. The story trailer show us how Marika called the Greater Will, now dried up after thousands of sacrifices, Miquella becomes a God by stripping himself of what attaches him to the world (reminds me of Tales of Symphonia, where Colette is loosing all senses to become an angel or the Avatar State) St. Trina asks us to kill him, because she understood this path will only create another Greater Will-like God, no feelings, just cold stare and control, a caged god.

Now, somethings that aren't clear is how the affection compelling powers works. Miquella shattered his own rune knowing this would remove his "charm" from others. Why he did that? What's the vow Radahn and Miquella made? The cutscene crystal clear shows Miquella is afraid of becoming a god, but taking that decision on this vow.

Probably a fight with Malenia before becoming Lord. Whispered this part on his ear like normal.

A LOT of information is missing, but the point was that there are no " villains" in this game, BUT THE GODS. It is a Man vs God narrative that is very nuanced. Thanks for your time.

Ps. Did you notice this?

Grace and the Gods influence reflect in the eyes. Messmer is final proof of it when he breaks his Grace and Serpent appears isntead, or Miquella showing up with eyes shut, becoming a God himself. Ranni Melina I wish we could have more dialog options and reactions from what we did in this DLC :')

[lizzybeeee]

DATV Spoilers - The Handling of Previous Story/Lore In DATV

Quick PSA: If you’ve read my post on the lore/story threads dropped – it’s not a list of what I expected or even wanted to see addressed/answered in DATV.

It’s pretty much a given that Kieran and the Architect were never going to come back in any meaningful way, I understand that. Questions about what happened to Anora, Anders, Cullen’s clinic etc...never expected to get an answer about them – at all. The line of succession in Ferelden and Orlais? I expected that sometime down the line it would have to be streamlined into one option for both nations, not a problem – there’s so many choices it’s impossible to account for, and I understand that.

A codex entry or letter would have been nice – but my expectations for DATV was solely for a good story that added to the lore and world of Thedas. Instead, it felt entirely reductive – glaringly so when you account for the ‘Executives’ twist. The slavery in Tevinter is non-existent, the Crows being an organization that indoctrinated children is never touched upon, any mystery of ancient Tevinter and the elves is answered (badly!), the Dalish have effectively disappeared and become the Veil Jumpers...it all feels so hollow, so shallow, that I ever cared about these things in the first place.

There’s no DLC planned – the team is working on Mass Effect 5 now. There’s no conclusion to the fate of the south of Thedas outside of two codex entries and some dialogue. They can patch the Executors cutscene out, maybe - perhaps they could even do the same to anything relating to the south of Thedas. Yes, these areas were not completely destroyed by the Blight – they can rebuild – but it comes across as being so meaningless that I ever cared for these places in the first place. To learn that after ten years of waiting all we cared for get devastated and left in limbo...it’s hard to put into words the bitterness I felt at that realization, and seeing that final cut-scene drove the nail into the coffin of how foolish I felt for even caring in the first place.

The issue is that the dev’s gave us only three choices, told us that as the story was contained to the north of Thedas – that our other choices weren’t relevant to the rest of the game – that their intent was to not effect anyone's head-canons...before doing so with ‘the blight has devastated most of everywhere you went previously’.

These were story/plot threads that were woven throughout the narrative of the first three games – the things that made me care and become invested in the world of Thedas to begin with. In a game that was set-up to be a direct sequel to Inquisition and Trespasser I hoped that, at least, what was brought up in Inquisition would be mentioned.

Perhaps my list is a little too detailed with plot threads and issues – if anything that can be attributed to the incredible world-building done in the first three games! I love those games, I love the world of Thedas...which is why this game utterly baffles me with its choices.

Dragon Age: The Veilguard is a good game but not a good Dragon Age game.

----------------------------------

Edit: DATV absolutely has a lot of problems outside of its handling of the lore and story of the previous games. I would not say its a good rpg in any sense, but as a weird 'action-adventure rpg lite' game I did have some fun moments and enjoy myself. Would I recommend it to anyone? Absolutely not.

I heard someone describe it as a 'junk food' game and I very much agree with that statement. I found enjoyment in it, but to do so I usually had to turn off my brain, which is not a compliment towards DATV.

The game released very well optimized (especially considering how most companies are content to release half-baked games and patch them later) and did create some really interesting visual set-pieces like the Battle of Weisshaupt. But those moments I enjoyed were few and far between, and far overwhelmed by the negatives of the game - such as story, lack of conversation/conflict/role-play options, bad character writing etc...

Calling the game 'good' is, perhaps, a stretch, and I totally get that. Calling it 'mediocre with some good parts' may be more accurate.

[mossy-green-aka-ferrythem]

I can't get over how I was just casually watching a Tulok and Mango video, because you know, I love Elden Ring, and I love seeing how these people go about playing Elden Ring (probably some of the absolute best youtubers out there in that regard), and they just, god their analysis of Miquella. (Also, this post will casually bring up the DLC final boss, so watch out for that.)

I remember I just felt so stumped when it came to Miquella as a character. However, they just pick up and put the pieces together so clearly, that it makes me wonder how I haven't picked up on it sooner.

Like. Literally everything about Miquella comes together when you realize that one of the themes he is centered around is "Naivety". His eternal childhood represents how he is eternally naive, as he is but a child. His decision to marry his own brother not only shows how far he's lost himself in his own naivety. His "Age of Compassion" has no compassion at all, by making everyone servile to him he takes away other's free will, and a lord of a kingdom with no thinking subjects, is no lord at all. Miquella would just end up repeating the genocides that Marika committed before him I bet. He just really didn't know any better because like. He is a child. Children make bad decisions. He really did have good intentions at heart, especially in regards to his sister.

However, he lost the plot. His quest to ascend to godhood and make Radahn his consort really would only lead to further sacrifice and further ruin. Mohg was charmed and left without purpose, only there to execute a ritual to send Miquella to the Realm of Shadow, Malenia, in order to kill Radahn, had to stop resisting the influence of the rot god, and bloom for the first time in her life. These are just large, sweeping examples, but I really do think it shows Miquella's sheer descent when he chose to succeed the power structure.

Also. We cannot ignore the St. Trina-shaped Elephant in the room. Yes. I really do think it's best to look at her as a trans allegory. Like just. She is literally described multiple times as "Miquella's love" and "Miquella's fate", and she is most definitely meant to represent who Miquella's ideal self would end up being. Miquella finally growing out of that eternal childhood and blossoming into a woman. I really do think St. Trina is meant to represent Miquella's adult self. I mean, look at how even after being ruined, she still blossoms. She has the will to grow and endure, to take root somewhere. While Miquella, in his desire to succeed the power structure, had to remain a man. Throwing away that part of himself, that compassion, that love, leaving only a being that can grow like a weed. The way he looks in the promised consort fight is more like Kudzu, growing and choking all around him, rather than St. Trina, who blooms so beautifully...

Really there is a lot to think about here and this post isn't the best in terms of organization but like, you know?

[ghostofashina]

"An affair from which gold arose and shadow too was born"

This was clearly about Lands Between and Lands of Shadows, how these two places coexist in different aspects. But also, I think it can give us a nice perspective about Godwyn and Messmer births.

This is just a small theory I made while trying to built up a timeline, because these two births tend to blend into the other and I think it's on purpose. And I know, where Melina fits in this? I still think Melina is one of the youngest of the pack, as a secret weapon of Marika recalling Messmer's kindling being out of her reach, but this is another theory for another post. Now, I'd like to bring a small theory about Godwyn being the child born from the seduction and the betrayal.

SOTE SPOILERS ahead.

We know, for certain, Godfrey was Marika's true first Elden Lord. But, even it being a common sense that Godwyn was their firstborn, there's actually no true evidence claiming he was born before the omen twins. Except that now, after one piece of dialogue in the DLC, can shows us this and a little more.

First things first. Messmer's dad still is the great mystery of Shadow of the Erdtree, and again I think this is on purpose, because considering Godfrey's evidence, the game wants to tell us he was already there when Messmer came to life. And I, personally, don't think neither Radagon or Godfrey are Messmer's father. I think, in a parallel to christian God, sacrificing his son for the sins, Marika birthed Messmer alone — and Melina, that's why they both share a vision of fire and are direct siblings.

According to Marika's own words: "[Radagon] Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a God. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self."

Knowing that Marika comes from the Shaman Village, and that her people was "grafted" to each other in seek of the divine, he is a part she divested herself later in the story and Messmer was some sort of manifestation of this, but not necessarily a child of Radagon.

And I guess we can agree Messmer was born in the Lands of Shadow, because he knows very well the sins committed against his mother and her own modus operandi. He was there before her godhood and that's why Godfrey's offspring got the title of first demigods. And Godfrey, too, was there with Marika since the start.

I won't get into the timeline of events, because it's a mish-mash in game, and I don't have the tools to explore assets and files. But, one thing that the DLC gives importance is the act of a vow. And we know Marika and Godfrey did a vow.

Leaving his past of Hoarah Loux, Godfrey took Serosh upon his shoulders to ease his bloodlust and accept the role when he sworned a vow with Marika to become a Lord. Which can reminds us of the Secret Rite Scroll, found in Shadow Keep.

"A lord will usher in a god's return and the lord's soul will require a vessel."

We can argue here about the roles of vessel and soul, because it feels Godfrey became the vessel to the Beast Regent (some sort of lord), which recalls the amount of lion representation in Hornsent culture. So, I tend to think that Serosh was part of the "betrayal" in order to ascend Marika to godhood with Godfrey as her lord consort.

That's when I imagine Godwyn was born. After the vow, to consumate the idea of Godfrey being named a lord of the golden lineage once Marika achieved godhood and started the Age of Erdtree.

If we recall the Minor Erdtree, left to the matriarch at Shaman Village, it's said:

"Secret incantation of Marika Only the kindness of gold, without Order."

I can see this as Miquella divesting himself of St. Trina, his love. Marika bathed her home in gold, knowing there was nothing left to heal. Alongside with her braid, it was a departing gift, because she was leaving for a new era. She is leaving her kindness of gold, to built the order. Godwyn was her last act of kindness of gold before the Order. That's why we have so many evidences he, alongside Messmer, was her beloved child of gold.

Going deeper, once we advance the questline of Hornsent Grandam, she tell us a very specific dialogue line, that can show us why Godwyn was curseless when he was born, different from his siblings.

She spoke of a omen curse. Curse upon her children, each and all. Messmer as her own flesh and blood, which I believe, carried the grafting curse upon her people over and over again, being a vessel to an outer god "grafting" into Marika's child. But Godwyn was curseless, because he was conceived outside cursing eyes, in secret. He was born of a vow that, once came to common knowledge, was called "the seduction and the betrayal" in the eyes of the Hornsent.

The birth of Godwyn was the start of her ascension to godhood. The affair from which gold (golden lineage, golden order, the golden prince) arose and shadow (abyssal serpent "shorn of light", shadow keep, shadow tree) too was born. And everything about them is represented of golden and shadow. From the eclipse to the golden ring in their symbols (as we see in the Death Knight's cloak or battle axes and alongside Messmer's spear and flame). So, I keep thinking they both were born at Lands of Shadows. One to purge her enemies and protect her kingdom, the other to represent a new era and maintain her glory. Godwyn is the Golden and Messmer is the Order.

[roachymochi]

Not done rambling about Elden Ring actually. I wanna talk about Melina and Messmer. They both have butterflies, they both have vision of fire, they are siblings. And from what we know they may well be empyreans.

the term empyreans refer to the highest sphere of heavens, a region of pure light and flame where divine being dwells. But it's etymology, taken literally, means "on fire" or "set ablaze".

I always thought it was a strange way to name potentials gods-to-be, but the fire theme seems like a direct reference to Messmer and Melina's status as they are burned by their own flames. Especially for Melina, has her burned and bodiless status imply her body was completely consumed.

The dlc teaches us about the nature of Marika's flesh, and how an empyrean can leave behind an entire other person from a part of their flesh. Miquella leave behind his love, who his St Trina. Marika probably did the same to create Radagon.

That bring us back to Messmer and Melina. Could they have been once a single unified being ?

We know Messmer lost quite a lot of his flesh. Most of it was devoured by the serpent, but their is one piece of him that was taken out by someone else. His right eye, replaced by a seal of Marika to keep him safe from the Serpent. Melina only has her right eye opened. In the frenzied flame ending, her left eye seem to have been hiding a cursed and fearsome power that may have been sealed away.

Messmer committed many atrocities, but he only seemed to care about her mother, and the love she gave him. He his weak, tired, and emotionless : like his soul was has hollow has his body devoured by the snake. Yet he persist and refuse to die, until it may serve his mother's goal.

Melina is completely unknown by anyone but the Tarnished. She never knew her mother and seems to wonder what motherly love is like. She is emotionally distant, like her bodyless existence makes her untangible. Yet she care so much about everything, the beauty of the world, and how much life is yet to be. To save this, she is ready to burn herself, even if it means destroying everything her own mother ever built.

Messmer and Melina have so much in common, and their difference only highlight the strength of their common theming. I can't help but think they used to be one and the same.

[fareehaandspaniards]

Miquella is nice

After finishing the DLC, Miquella made me think a lot. Before the DLC, he had a rather… one-sided image, I don't know what else to call it. He was incredibly kind, and we saw references for his connection to St. Trina initially (because we still remember Gwyndolin, who lived as girl. And we know Fromsoftware loves the archetype of the sad feminine young man). Miquella was a victim, was a martyr, and was an incredibly kind soul who prayed for Godwyn and invented a true miracle - the Golden Needle, which can help to hold the rot.

But the DLC absolutely turned his image upside down! And it makes me very sad to see a character's incredible transition and acquisition of a new layer of morality (gray) labeled as "bad writing" and "fuck GRRM he spoiled my baby boyy :(((((".

Today after talking with my spouse (He always helps me realize any fragments of lore. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding the simplest things that everyone has long understood and accepted. Also! Happy birthday to my beloved!), I could only finally understand why everyone is getting so worked up about Michella, even though we've had a scenario similar to his "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" a long time ago. That was Laurence, everyone's favorite in Bloodborne, and Gwyn (he really wanted good things and it didn't turn out well :/), etc. I'll also remind you that the fandom (in the general sense) of Fromsoftware games is very fond of villains, and that's fine. But for some reason, when Miquella turned out to be not the good guy everyone wanted him to be, no one appreciated it. And I tried to defend him to the last in a discussion with my husband - Miquella sacrificed everything for the "greater good" in his understanding of the word, Miquella went the way of renunciation, Miquella knew how to love and loved his sister, Miquella wanted to correct all the sins of the past.

However, unlike most Fromsoftware villains, Miquella HIDES his atrocities (even from himself). Nashandra, Shabriri, Micolash, anyone - their motives are clear. They have principles, egos, backstories, justifications for wanting to be a destructive factor, some have these reasons built in at birth, some are insane, etc. Miquella, on the other hand, finds followers by Dishonest means, condemns Radahn to suffering for which to end the festival is organized, leaves his sister to die, condemns Mohg to be a puppet in his scheming, and still thinks of himself as a VIRTUE. He believes that the era he is about to found - will be good and bright. And with words of goodness he kills us in battle with Radahn!

Miquella is a golden apple with a very rotten core. We don't know, really, at what point he started to "rot". What's funny is that of the two twins, Malenia was rotten on the outside and he was rotten on the inside.

Miquella's center is in love. He carries self-love everywhere, charming and falling in love with almost everyone. That is why Malenia says, "My brother will keep his promise. He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god - he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all." I think he is the type of child who got used to being loved. The problem with this type is that he can become a wonderful person, or he can turn into a monster who will take love and attention at any cost. (My spouse reminded me here of stories of crazed maniacs who kidnapped those they loved and dreamed of a nonexistent future, not realizing the damage they were doing.)

But there are many questions that, perhaps, everyone should answer for themselves?

What vow did Miquella make to Malenia?

In my opinion, Malenia was not charmed by him. I've always wondered WHY she waits for Miquella at the cocoon in the Tree, even though it clearly shows Miquella being stolen???? She knew, she probably knew his plan originally. She had been waiting for his return like a god. But what had he promised? That when he returned, he would cure her of the rot permanently?

When did Miquella begin his "fall"?

There is no denying that Miquella was a good guy. He tried, he tried to help his loved ones. He looked up to Radahn as a child with respect, as the description of Remembrance of a God and Lord says. Miquella was in harmony with his other self, Trina. But what changed him? Failures? The desire to save everyone at once? The desire to be the most loved? To be perfect - a god? I'm inclined to think it was all of those things that corrupted him at once. After all, as a favorite child, he may have been flawed deep inside from the beginning.

Miquella had resurrected Radahn as a young, beautiful warrior, just as he had been before. But Radahn does not utter a single phrase during the battle, and his movements are more automatic. Radahn feels nothing, and it makes me think more and more that he's more like Miquella's wish come true, his hope of having a worthy consort he loved by his side.

Is Radahn a puppet or a future lord?

Nothing has been confirmed. I've also read that Miquella's spell was broken when his rune was split, that's how many NPCs come to their senses and realize everything. But I think his power would be enough to, like a necromancer, control a resurrected one? And honestly, it's unlikely Radahn would have wanted such a fate. He was holding back fate itself, the stars, so that what did happen to him in the DLC wouldn't happen. Thanks to Miquella, Malenia had turned Caelid into a solid rotten mess and blossomed her divine flower, and left Radahn in an insane state waiting for a noble death at the hands of other warriors. Miquella mutilated him. I don't think Radahn would have appreciated his methods, considering how dedicated he is to warriorship and uprightness, and also honors Godfrey.

What would have happened if the Age of Compassion had happened?

I think it would have been VERY bad. And after a major flourish of life and honoring Miquella, there would have been a decline and another Shattering. Miquella shows himself to be a man who does not tolerate dissent. I think there would have been a flowering of the Inquisition, persecution, murder, and brutal tyranny. And Radahn, most likely, would have simply been "squeezed out" by Miquella and destroyed by his boundless love. Yes, Miquella rejects his love, as @jarognieva correctly pointed out. But he rejected, in my understanding (we need a clear translation from Japanese here), his destined love, i.e., his intended spouse, Trina? Just as Radagon was Marika's spouse. Our Marika is a deity, but she is capable of love - her love for her son, Godwyn, caused her heart to break.

Fandom cancelled Mohg, now he is cancelling Miquella. People don't accept and don't want to comprehend the things that make them change points of view. That's how the witch hunt begins! So stop being shitty and decide for yourself what you think of Miquella before claiming him a "bad written character"

Miquella, as a character, has become an incredible bastard, manipulative and truly evil with a mask of piety. He doesn't go into battle as an honest warrior, he uses others. He "sacrifices" himself by actually sacrificing everyone else. But doesn't that make him MORE interesting?

He's broken a lot of headcanons, but I sincerely hope that the wave of love for him as a VERY gray character will still come! After all, he's a worthy villain archetype! A true evil hidden in a pure soul. How many fanfics, how many musings can be spawned from that. No need to deny him, rather try to accept Miquella for who he is. And don't make it into "good" or "evil". There's a particular aesthetic to how awful Miquella is.

[miasma-my-asthma]

Im kinda disappointed that st. Trina doesnt get as much of a spotlight on the dlc tbh. Like, how fucking cool would it have been if the final boss wasnt immune to sleep (not even asking for weakness just the fucking possibility of it being affected by sleep) and if you manage to put radahn+miquella to sleep in the second stage miquella makes a sad remark abt regretting abandonning st. Trina? Like wouldnt that be fucking interesting and sad? But no, it has to be a hard boss and only that, there is no room for creativity or narrative engagement if it means allowing the big speacial hard ultimate super duper challange last boos be easier bc this HAS to be a hard boss bc thats what fromsoftware does, hard games for the sake of being hard an nothing else. Jfc.

Not to mention how little st. Trina and sleep stuff they gave for the player to use in the dlc: outside of consummables they only added TWO fucking sleep weapons (and one of them is fucking identical to another sleep weapon that already existed in the base game) AND ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING SLEEP SORCEIRES OR INCANTATIONS, LIKE, WHAT? ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE "SAINT" OF SLEEP DOESNT GET A SINGLE SLEEP MIRACLE/INCANTATION IN NEITHER THE BASE GAME OR THE DLC, BUT A NEW ROT SAINT NO ONE KNEW ABT BEFORE GETS HER OWN UNIQUE ROT INCAN?(no hate to you romina, I love you, I wished they buffed your miracle cause its underpowered as fuck).

[eldenringslut]

Okay this is going to be a masterpost linking to posts (both mine and other people’s) that encapulate my thoughts on the Elden Ring DLC lore surrounding Miquella and Consort Radahn. Mostly because I feel like I’m going to be disagreeing with people a lot about the lore and I’d rather have a single post I can link to to share my views.

I’m going to be reblogging this with additional links occasionally so sorry for the spam lol.

Some of the theories listed are going to be incompatible with one another, as there are multiple possible ways to interpret the lore. And as usual feel free to disagree with me and/or discuss lore with me :D

My initial response to the whole ‘chadahn’ thing:

An excellent analysis of Miquella and St. Trina:

Post about how the whole consort thing has nothing to do with sex:

A comparison between Miquella and Ranni, also another possible interpretation of Miquella’s mentality:

A more meta perspective on the whole situation:

Analysis of how Miquella changed over time and how the path to godhood may have changed him:

[bellepeppergirl]

Mohg the Empyrean

I've mentioned this once before in a previous post, but I'm in the mood to go more in-depth with the idea, and I believe that Mohg is an Empyrean.

Mohg spent his entire life in the sewers due to Marika's oppressive rule over the Lands Between, which scorned those born with horns, who they deemed as "Omens." The "omen" in question was, in my belief, likely one of the Hornsent, Marika's enemy's, return. In order to not allow this return to happen, anything that reminded Marika of the Hornsent or the Crucible was punished; Misbegotten were enslaved, Omen were massacred or had their horns removed, and royal Omen were confined to the sewers for their entire life. This included Marika's own children, Morgott and Mohg.

Now, most of Marika's direct offspring seem to be Empyreans; Miquella and Malenia are confirmed to be Empyreans, Melina seems to hold the power of Destined Death, and Messmer has the power of the Fell God within him. We can assume Godwynn was also likely an Empyrean and, in a way, he sort of did ascend into godhood by becoming the Prince of Death, though this could be considered coincidental.

Onto Morgott and Mohg, while I'm not sure if anything could possibly tie Morgott into being an Empyrean, Mohg himself seems to have Empyrean traits. For starters, Empyreans all seem to have things going on with their eyes.

Malenia is entirely blind, with the Outer God of Rot's influence having taken her eye, leaving only disgusting and decayed flesh where they used to be.

Ranni's right eye is sealed, and while we have not seen her original form, only the doll form she took after sacrificing her flesh, I am willing to assume that her original form was in a similar state.

Melina also has a sealed eye, this time on her left side. When Melina opens that eye during the Frenzied Flame ending, we see a deep purple iris. It seems she inherited the power of the Outer God of Death, which was possibly the Deathbird Mother.

Messmer is in a similar state to both Melina and Malenia. He seems to be entirely blind, with one eye sealed and the other containing what appears to be a glass eye given to him by his mother. Behind this glass eye, we see a strange abyss. Messmer also seems to have been blessed with an Outer God's power, that being the Fell God's and possibly even the Base Serpent's, if we were to consider that being to also be an Outer God.

Miquella and St. Trina, another confirmed Empyrean, is never seen to open their eyes. This could indicate that they are also blind, or hiding some form of Outer God-blessed eyes.

Mohg can be seen with a horn piercing his right eye. On top of that, we know he came into contact with a confirmed Outer God, that being the Formless Mother, who gave him the power of Bloodflame and spurred on his desire to start his own dynasty.

Initially, this theory of Mohg being an Empyrean could have been debunked because, if he was an Empyrean, why would he need Miquella? But with the reveals from the DLC, this potential debunking has itself been debunked, as we now know that Miquella had been controlling Mohg the entire time so that he could use the Omen's remains to resurrect Radahn and make him his consort so that Miquella could bring about his own age.

That being said, I don't think we can entirely throw out the "Mohg needing an Empyrean" thing, because I believe that itself now also serves as evidence that Mohg is an Empyrean. With us being led to believe that Mohg wanted a consort that was an Empyrean he could corrupt for his own age, it seems like this was Miquella's own plan being leaked out.

Miquella wanted an Empyrean, Mohg, that he could corrupt by using their body to remake Radahn, who was not an Empyrean initially, to create a consort for Miquella's new age. Having two Empyreans creating a new age would ensure their own power for likely much longer than having only one.

Mohg himself seems to also have wanted to bring his own age. In the DLC, we can find more information about the Formless Mother. Namely, we learn of the Bloodfiends. The Bloodfiends were once, and debatably still are, an oppressed tribe that came into contact with the Formless Mother. They began to worship her and were slowly warped into the creatures they are today and carry her power.

Similarly, Mohg is an Omen; another oppressed group that was massacred and locked away. I think the Formless Mother favors the oppressed. Whether this is because she cares about them or just thinks it's funny to shake things up by giving the oppressed power, I can't say, but regardless, her giving them power allows for them to fight for their rights and a new age.

Throughout Mohgwynn Palace, we can find a lot of Albinaurics. The Albinaurics are another group that is oppressed thanks to them being artificial, and thus not considered holy since they bear no connection to the Erdtree. But perhaps, under Mohg and the Formless Mother's rule, they could find or create a new world where they are not treated poorly, tortured, or killed for the heinous crime of simply existing. The Albinaurics here, and the Sanguine Nobles we meet, also seem to be changing into new beings, similar to how the Bloodfiends did, as they can be seen covered in or growing horns.

So yes; I believe Mohg was an Empyrean. He is the child of Marika, and Empyrean who has birthed numerous Empyreans herself, has a similar eye situation to other confirmed or quasi-confirmed Empyreans, and is confirmed to have the power and blessing of an Outer God with the goals and capability of bringing about a new age. Miquella then took his body to make Radahn and Empyrean so they could create the Unalloyed Age.

[nerendus]

Okay, this is a little bit of a tangent ramble about Miquella and may not make the most of sense, but bear with me.

I know baseline the PC's motivations are going to be left up to the player, but I do love how Fromsoft sets up the player's motivations for killing Miquella.

Because at first, based on the dialogue options you have with Freyja specifically, it appears you come to the shadowlands to be somewhat of service of Miquella, but then you go meet St. Trina who asks you to kill him, and that's why you end up fighting him. Because it doesn't necessarily make sense to fight him if you just wanted his Great Rune like the Tarnished are inclined to want, you would just fight the sunflower if that was the case.

But other than St. Trina wanting him dead--not out of revenge but as a way of freeing him from the shackles of godhood--, another reason the PC would want him dead is because he is most certainly to end up like Marika.

Miquella is not a villain. The cutscene of him from as an Empyrean is very much of him having naive innocence of wanting to make the world a better place. I'm still a little confused as to why Empyrean!Miquella thought that Radahn could help him reach those goals (other than the whole Godwyn eclipse thing), but I feel like I know fully why Radahn would be of great service of God!Miquella.

Miquella's motivations for becoming a god is first and foremost to heal Malenia. That's why he left the Golden Order and that's why the Haligtree was created. Along the way, he came to realize the injustice of the Omen and every creature that lives outside the Golden Order's grace as well as the cruelty of Godwyn's murder, and it all ties into him needing to become a god to fix all the injustices he sees around him.

To pass through the divinity gate and become a god, Micky had to strip himself of who he was before. His flesh, his love, his other self, they all had to be ripped from him in order for him to ascend, and that's where he became unsaveable.

St. Trina tells us that godhood would be a prison for him, but not only that, becoming a god means that he will end up like Marika. If he separates himself from his love to become a god, how is he supposed to save the people he loves once he ascends?

At the point that we fight him, I don't think he is anywhere close to "evil", but he would eventually get to that point. He already charms many of the NPCs, however, I feel inclined to mention that at that point, he wasn't exactly mind-controlling them. Ansbach's dialogue is still riddled with a sense of suspicion before the charm is ever lifted, and quite a few of them seem almost aware of the fact that they are charmed but they can't do anything about it. The only time I think he is fully mind-controlling someone is the player character after he does his grab attack twice.

And the reason why the god Miquella wanted to use Radahn is that I think he knows at that point war is inevitable. I think if we left him alone, he would eventually attack the Golden Order. Which, is fine, at first. But once you fight the soldiers of the Golden Order, what if that one day extends to its people it serves? And what if you find another civilization that you deem needing to be saved from another civilization, or if someone threatens your new order? In that sense, he is destined to end up in the same situation as his mother.

Which is why I love the lore attached to Marika in this DLC. At first, she may have only attacked the armies of the Hornsent, but I think one day it just extended to all of its people regardless of their innocence or guilt in the slaughter of her people. The lore of her past serves as a warning for what will become of Miquella if we allow him to become a god.

And one of St. Trina's last words is to kill him in order to grant him forgiveness. If we kill Miquella before he has the chance to return to the Lands Between, he could still die as an innocent being unlike Marika.

[dragon-communion]

Random thought: there's something to be said for addiction in Elden Ring.

I'm specifically fascinated by Sleep, Madness, and the connection between the two. Trina was involved with pacifying the merchants' despair, until she didn't anymore. Items that give you focus alleviate both Sleep and Madness. Both of them seem to mostly be effective against other Tarnished, though the Godskins are particularly susceptible to Sleep.

Sleep magic has been called addictive in item descriptions, and cut content had it heavily involved with alcohol from what I know? Or at least turned memories into some sort of drink.

While Miquella himself seems to mostly be characterized via holy magic (his rings of light, the Golden Epitaph, the Haligtree soldiers/knights), every single one of the Empyrean demigods taps into something beyond the Golden Order. Ranni taps into the stars, which are clearly some sort of eldritch force, and the moon. Malenia is possessed by the Scarlet Rot. While Miquella is associated with abundance, it's unclear what elemental affinity or god could have been connected to it. The moth cocoons around his city make it even more confusing.

But the only other element associated with him is Sleep.

So if Ranni made an age of stars, and Malenia would have likely turned the whole world into Caelid, what would sleep have done to the world?

Forgive my pretentious reference here, but with sleep being the brother of death, I think it could have had plenty to do with spirits. In what way, I'm unsure, but maybe the DLC will give me a couple of clues as to what St. Trina could have done to the Lands Between if she became the new god.

@miquella-everywhere tagging you because you have interesting takes