#the show: forced conforming that's what's killing the kids

[chirpsythismorning]

Mike and El are never beating the doomed subtext allegations…

[pixidivine]

Okay let’s remind the people in the back what stranger things is about shall we ?

It’s a show about a group of friends who don’t fit in, that are nerds, Will Byers gay boy in the 80s with an absent father and a poor family, Mike Wheeler another gay boy in the 80s with a "perfect family", Lucas Sinclair a black boy in the 80s, Dustin Henderson a boy with a disability in the 80s, El Hopper a girl that was a lab rat all her life, I could describe every character but that would be too long.

This show is about being different, understanding said difference, accepting that difference.

Why ?

Because, and say it with me, I quote,

"It’s forced conforming, that’s what’s killing the kids"

[punkeropercyjackson]

An aspect of Hobie as an afropunk character that isn't talked about and appreciated enough(or ever really)is how humanized he is.So often punk male characters are stuckup white boys with consent issues and no real street cred due to whitewashing of punk culture as an inherently black scene per our history but Hobie's afropunk and he ain't no oreo.He's darkskin,his nose and lips are so big,his eyes are far apart,his brow is strong,he has wicks which are one of the most frowned upon hairstyles on black folks despite how nice they are,he's 6'5,he's ACTUALLY tall dark and handsome and they went nuts with him and i'm eternally impressed with how beautiful he is not 'inspite' of his blackness like is often potrayed but because of his blackness

Hobie is so open and softhearted and fun and he plays it into his beliefs and actions,not contradicting them as a sort of gag,he's multifaced and his personality traits overlap and contrast all at once.That's what people are like in real life but very rarely is that nuanse allowed to exist in black people as we aren't seen as,well,people.Hobie isn't demonized or made it to need to be put on a leash for hating authority and beating up bigots and even killing a cop.He's light as a role model for it.He's cringe sometimes,he does underaged drinking,he makes ridicilous facial expressions nonstop,he's got a big ego even if it's justified,he's a dad friend,he's an adultified black kids allegory,his personal(official)playlist is all actual punk songs,not Avril or Fob or P!atd,he loves the sea enough as a jamaican-english kid he choose a houseboat as his residense back when he was homeless,a concept art had him have a cat charm on his Watch,he plays guitar and uses it as a weapon,he's trans unlabeled and a black femme,he's definitely ptsd and audhd and never learned how to mask as so many black autistics people don't

And this is gonna be controversial but the implied romance with Gwen was a wonderful addition to his character.Gwen is punk too,she's canonically pastel punk and a trans girl and as trauma induced mentally ill and no masking game audhd-coded as Hobie is and their dynamic is symbolism for the intertwienment between blackness and transfeminism in punk history and a show of solidarity between different yet fundamentally similar aspects of punk and they get to bond over being troubled but good kids and punks and Gwen is so enamored with Hobie she can't help but yap about him to Miles and steal his clothes in a classic girlfriend move and flirt back when he initiates it despite how flustered she gets and the non-sexual intimacy of her living with him part time just the two of them and we know it's the non-sexual kind since them hooking up is what society expects of teenagers in love but punks don't care about conforming for normies and Hobie went out of his way to make reverse racism real on Gwen's abusive dad's ass and even forced him to leave her his love note.They're so important to eachother and the only thing stopping Ghostpunk from being the absolute perfect ship is the Spiderverse crew dropping the ball by not making Gwen a half white afrolatina(she is to me though.imma do my own thing)

Hobie Browns exists all over our existense and always have.He's the black punk kids from the 1970s,he's the black punk kids of today,he's the black punk kids i'm friends with and have pseudo-adopted as my younger siblings/kids as an older afrosolarpunk and them lacking positive adult figures in their lives so i do my best to give them what they need and want,he's ME when i was 17 and we're still so alike.I don't give two shits if i sound like a fucking geek,he genuinely means so much to me and i love him with my entire heart and soul and he would've changed my life as a lonely anarchistic afro-caribbean kid who felt like the bad guy no matter what i did or how hard i tried to be good and i'm so happy i can be what i didn't get to have to my honorary younger siblings/kids and help strangers and do all i can to fight to change the system,that i can be like Hobie and that Hobie is like Hobie instead of palpable to nonblacks

[wheelerpilled]

'forced conformity is killing the kids'

Mike Wheeler ST5 Theory/analysis

So we've all seen the new BTS of Finn Wolfhard on the set of Stranger Things dropped and OH MY GOD. THE DUALITY FROM LAST SEASON.

I have to TRY write about it ATLEAST...because wow I have a lot of potential thoughts, sorry it's once again unstructured, messy, and repetitive but stay with me please!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen ALOT of people happy we're getting s1-2 Mike hair back but guys .....it's not a good thing!!!!!!!!!! Mike is going THROUGH IT.

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In Season 4 it's acknowledged that Mike is finally coming into his own a bit, Eddie says he was wearing 'whatever his mom bought him' when he first came to highschool, but in episode 1 when we see him for the first time in S4, he's clearly been influenced by Eddie and has figured out what style he likes and what he's interested in, he's in a DND club, he's comfortable being known as an uncool nerd, he's growing his hair out (yes I DO believe it's because he idolised Eddie, I have more to say about that in a second)

basically: his hair and his outfits, aswell as pretty much the way he acts in Hawkins (NOT California- he goes back to pretending to be something else) in S4 represents the ideology non-conformity and his sense freedom in this new persona

he doesn't feel lost in highschool anymore, he's doing what he likes with his friends (DnD) and he's proudly wearing his hellfire shirt around school/Hawkins, basically, he's accepting that it's okay to enjoy 'different' things that aren't considered the norm, and it makes him happy, he feels comfortable!

_____________________________________________

But now in Season 5, from the pictures we've seen, it looks like he's fully reverted back into his shell, I guess I understand why tbh I don't blame him:

he comes back to Hawkins after everything and everyone believes he's in a satanic cult- townspeople probably treat him badly and Jason's team mates probably blame Eddie and the rest of hellfire for Jason's 'disappearance' (death). They directly connect him with all the horrible things that have happened to Hawkins as of late

...which is probably what the BTS of them walking towards Mike are about, they probably keep harassing him no matter how he acts and Mike just wants them to leave him alone, let's face it:

High school has probably gone full circle back to middle school for Mike and he's getting bullied/mistreated again. So he feels his only option is to remove himself from Hellfire and become 'normal'.

Hellfire might maybe even be blamed for the gates being opened. Last we heard, the townspeople were hunting down Eddie and the rest of hellfire, and the graffiti on Eddie's grave in the S5 pics shows that he's still very much hated.

Mike probably got harassed by multiple people who don't believe Eddie's dead, or believe Mike was in on it and are out looking for him, or think Hellfire contributed to some satanic ritual causing the 'earthquake' and thus Mike is also a target and it's dangerous for him.

So I think part of the style change and haircut is due to THAT, he doesn't wear his hellfire shirt anymore because he doesn't want any affiliation with the club.

As Finn Wolfhard has said in previous interviews 'mikes just trying to act as normal as possible' so by seperating himself from Eddie/Hellfire and becoming more conventionally 'normal' he won't be treated like an outcast.

He won't be assaulted, bullied, blamed, or worse if he conforms. He has a greater chance of everything becoming better/easier while living in Hawkins if he does this, he might have even given up DnD aswell- so yeah he's gonna be pretty MISERABLE in season 5

___________________________________________

Alot of people wanted to see his reaction to Eddie's death, I think we'll definitely be seeing the lingering after effects of it, and alot of Mike's arc will kick off because of the aftermath of the vilification of Hellfire.

Only few people know that Eddie died to try protect Hawkins, Eddie was a role model for Dustin and Mike, but they're grieving him in COMPLETELY different ways

Dustin decides to honour him by taking up a similar style and proudly wearing his hellfire shirt, and is also probably trying to sway the town's opinion on Eddie and prove him innocent.

....But Mike seemingly decides that he DOESNT want to end up like Eddie anymore: dead and hated, known as a satanic freak.

Someone he idolised is now deceased, he doesn't know how to properly handle that fact, it's intimidating that someone he looked up to do much could be so hated, and in turn has caused the reaction from Mike that is basically 'if my idol is treated as such a horrible outcast, and I wanted to follow in his footsteps, where would that leave me?' he's feeling lost and hopeless, especially with the state Hawkins is in, so he probably decides the best thing to do is just blend in. Be normal.

It probably scares him that even merely his interest in DnD and all these other factors immediately make him a target, as far as townspeople believe- Mike is one of the kids who was close with a brutal serial killer, they probably think he's just as 'messed up as Eddie the freak was' for staying friends with someone who'd do such horrible things

I think Mike just wants to hide as much as he can right now, he has ALOT on his plate and doesn't need the rest of the town out to get him.

so if anyone asks: he'll probably say things like 'I didn't really know Eddie! I would never join a cult like that, I didn't know!' or something to try seperate his name from the hellfire club.

Mike will end up picking protecting himself and hiding his true identity and values/traits rather then living exposed and vulnerable; yet true to what he actually believes is right....And that is the opposite of what Dustin is doing,

Dustin is a proud hellfire member and friend of Eddie, he's picking what he thinks is right over self-preservation from the town, he's still wearing his battered shirt, now HE'S the one growing his hair out, he still adores Eddie and misses him (so does Mike probably, but he feels he CANT outwardly publicly show support or stand up for him)

I do wonder if this will cause some sort of tension between Dustin and Mike, because Dustin is doing the opposite and becoming more like Eddie instead of distancing himself from the hellfire name, he might feel betrayed that Mike 'gave up' on Hellfire, and maybe accuse him of not even caring about Eddie or his death?? Idk!!!!!!!!!! I feel like Dustin will also be going through it this season 😭😭😭

_____________________________________________

I do also think Mike will try to be clinging alot to El this season (I mean, before they inevitably break up which I believe will probably happen kinda early on if it actually happens at all)

this is also because just the idea of having a girlfriend corresponds to his idea of conformity and being 'normal'. He just wants to be a normal guy, his life is nothing out for the ordinary, he's not interested in satanic things like dnd and hellfire, he's just a normal person. A normal person who is PROBABLY a target of Vecna in season 5 😓

I believe his arc for this season will be trying to breakout of these notions of conformity in exchange for things he actually likes and is interested in, we saw him sort of branching out in season 4, but I think THIS time it's happening for real, and he'll end up fully embracing his own views and interests after some sort of emotional arc-which will also probably be part of the M*lev*n break up (not censored because I'm against them/hate them I just don't wanna clog the tag for others 😭😭) OR set off by the breakup

Throughout season 1 he was told he liked El, or others assumed it, so I think he assumed it aswell, they just never broke up because El ALSO thinks having a boyfriend is normal and expected, and because Mike was the boy she was closest to she assumed it was romantic feelings (and he kissed her in S1 which probably contributed to her assuming they were romantic feelings)

Alot of the people around her are also in relationships, and she watched alot of TV with happy romantic couples so she thinks it's more normal to HAVE a boyfriend then to NOT have one, I think Mike and El kinda stayed together because they think they're SUPPOSED to by these social standards,

They obviously care about each other alot, and mistook it as reasons to just stay together, she wants to be a normal girl because only being a superhero isnt good for her, she needs to be 'Jane Hopper' and not '011'. I do think she definitely needs to be single for awhile and find herself, even if her and Mike are to be endgame, she NEEDS at least some time to gain some experiences outside of living her life as a superhero, (Mike also needs character development outside of being 'Els Boyfriend's)

Which is why it was vital that her time with max in S3 existed, so El could realise her value and that there is a life outside having a boyfriend- I think Mike needs a similar moment aswell, a wake-up call of sorts where he can take a step back and consider maybe rather than letting society dictate his actions, he makes decisions for what he wants for himself ('we make our own rules')

_____________________________________________

If m*lev*n is endgame then sure that's great for them, but I genuinely don't know what big character arc could be in store for Mike that doesn't involve a breakup and themes of non-conforming, it doesn't even have to involve Byler endgame at all (although I AM a byler truther)

I think Mike learning that it's okay to let go of that romantic relationship if he doesn't feel that way anymore is a big step for his character, or atleast taking a break so he can work on himself, anything along those lines of actual development on himself rather then on his relationship- El and Mike have been romantically paired from the start, he needs to learn that it's OKAY to breakup with someone if thats what he feels is right, (side note: I DO believe El would/will be the one to breakup with him 😭)

I don't think he realises that he'll be able to stay friends with El, it's not 'shes my girlfriend or else she'll hate me for breaking up with her. No other options'

he doesn't want to lose her because he cares about her but he can't find a way to balance that romantic relationship alongside his other friendships. So I think for his character to develop they have to breakup, even temporarily, but obviously that's only my opinion if M*lev*n is endgame then oh well, it's endgame, but I think they would be a really awesome platonic duo and I'd like their relationship alot more if it was that way

______________________________________________

I think later in the season he'll realise that living this way not actually what he wants, and he doesn't want to give up who he is, or pretend to be something he's not- because he IS a nerd who likes DnD, and he does support Eddie, he cared alot about him because he idolised him, and i think season 5 is about him learning that that's okay and he doesn't have to feel so much pressure to conform by societal standards, bro needs a better grief process, forced conformity GOT HIS ASS 😭😭😭

What I'm trying to say is: all of this, and his new look is a safety net of sorts, he's still pretending to be something he's not because he feels he HAS to, otherwise it's dangerous for him in Hawkins because of hellfires reputation, but he's also acting this way because of other factors that I haven't really thought through yet LMAO

I believe season 5 will probably be him accepting those things about himself and embracing it, maybe also undoing his emotional repression along the way, I guess I would describe it as coming of age and I think if it's handled well it could be really beautiful in a way

OH MY GOD I RAMBLED SO MUCH AND IT ISNT EVEN A SOLID THEORY JUST A COLLECTION OF THOUGHTS😭

Sorry that was long and repetitive but uhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah..........anyways Mike Wheeler ily keep ur head up king please don't die in S5‼️‼️ stay safe‼️‼️

[pleasinghellfire]

Time After Time

summary: you just wanted to go to prom with Eddie

word count: 1.4k

All Rights Reserved.

“Are you excited for prom?” Robin asked, bumping your hip as you made your way to the cafeteria.

“Oh yes! I got the perfect dress a couple of weeks ago!” You smiled brightly. You were nearly bouncing over how passionate you were for the annual end of the year celebration.

“Did Eddie even ask you yet?” Nancy questioned as she held open the door so you and Robin could walk into the loud lunchroom. Hawkins was rowdy as ever as prom was just around the corner. Everyone was ready for school to end and summer to begin.

“Yeah, ummm…he hasn’t.” You hesitated as the girls looked back at you with shock.

“What?” Nancy shouted.

“He is such a dingus!” Robin shook her head, turning and walking towards your normal table with determination. Nancy started to follow.

“Wait! Wait, please!” You pleaded, reaching out for Nancy’s arm holding her back. “He hasn’t asked me yet but I’m sure he will. Prom is only next week. There's still time.”

“Okay but if he doesn’t ask you soon you can’t get upset if I whack him on his big head.” Robin wrapped her arm around you as you two walked step by step towards the table with the rest of the gang.

“Robin!” Dustin called out. “Please come tell Jeff that he is wrong and three musketeers is the best candy!”

You laughed as you quickly gave Eddie a peck of his cheek and sat in the empty chair to his left. He was in an intense conversation with Gareth over his campaign for Hellfire.

BOOP!

A string of balloons lifted up to the ceiling while two football players stood on top of the table holding out a sign saying “PROM?”

“Yes!” The cheerleader cried out as she jumped into her date’s arms. The filled room roared in applause and praise.

“Oh come on!” Eddie gagged.

“What Munson?” Mike joked. “Disgusted by prom?”

“Quite literally actually.” He crossed his arms and leaned back in his chair, his face still scrunched up in disgust at the prom goers basking in their cheers.

“Is prom not metal enough for you Eddie?” Nancy challenged.

“Prom is stupid.” Eddie laughed. Nancy and Robin watched as your shoulders dropped in defeat, slowly losing the hope of ever going to prom with Eddie. The rest of the gang gave each other a shared glance, knowing how much you wanted to go to the dance with your boyfriend.

“Prom is just forced conformity, that’s what’s killing the kids. I’m just ready to run like hell out of here. I’d lose my mind dancing with people who call me a freak for enjoying a fantasy game.”

“Well everyone deserves to enjoy prom at least once.”

“Yeah, well not me Sinclair.” Eddie shrugged off, taking a bite of his food.

You pushed back your chair, gathered all your books for your next class and exited the room. You left your friends behind as they all collectively threw their belongings at the metal head.

“Jesus Christ! What the hell?” Eddie shouted.

“You’re such a dumbass Munson!”

*****

It was the night of prom and you were home in your pjs. Eddie never got around to asking you, which hurt your feelings. You sort of gave Eddie the cold shoulder since his little confession at lunch last week and he hasn’t yet figured out why. You still laughed as your friends harassed him everyday, throwing things at his head or calling him names. You loved Eddie but damn, he could be an idiot sometimes. You understood why Eddie didn’t care for prom but that didn’t mean that you didn’t want to show off your hot boyfriend to everyone at Hawkins. You longed for the night to get all dolled up in your pretty dress you knew Eddie would love and dance the night away with him, saying goodbye to Hawkins High forever.

You laid in bed, turning the page in the book you were barely paying attention to when you heard a loud knock on your door. You looked out of your window to see Nancy and Robin waving at you from below.

You rushed downstairs and opened the door to them. They were each holding their dresses in their arms as Nancy pushed past you into your home.

“What are you two doing here? You should be on your way to the dance right now?”

“Yeah, and you should be getting your butt back up to your room to get that amazing dress on and come with us!” Nancy exclaimed, trying to push you back towards the stairs.

“What? Wait!” You laughed. “What about Ed-”

“Ah! No! Nope! Nope!” Robin covered your mouth snickering. “We are not saying that dingus’ name. We are going to prom, just us girls and we are going to have fun. Okay?”

You looked between your two wonderful friends and let out a chuckle, “Okay!”

“Okay! Now hurry up, get dressed! We’re going to prom!”

You laughed and ran upstairs to get changed.

*****

By the time the three of you made it to Hawkins, the dance was already in commence. Quickly making your way to the middle of the gymnasium floor to catch up on all the missed moments of fun. Losing track of the time, you made your way off the dancefloor, getting a drink from the refreshments table and headed to sit on the extended bleachers for a break.

Soon the ambiance of the atmosphere slowed down, the lights dimming down as the dj merged the upbeat song into “Time After Time” by Cyndi Laupner. You sadly took a sip from your beverage looking away from the couples swaying to the beginning song. You wished Eddie was here.

Looking down, you caught sight of the familiar scuffed up white high top Reeboks that stop ahead of you.

“Sorry I’m late sweetheart.” You looked up to see Eddie. He had his curly hair pulled back into a low bun at the nape of his neck. His usual Hellfire Club shirt was swapped out for a white button down. You were surprised to see he owned a pair of pants without rips or tears.

“Can I please have the honor of a dance, my lady?” Eddie bowed his head down, extending his hand out to you. You smiled as you accepted his offer.

He led you to the center of the gym, turning around and placing his hands on your waist. You raised your hands to place them around his neck. Eddie pulled you in close, rocking back and forth to the beat.

flashbacks, warm nights almost left behind

“I didn’t think you would ever come. How did you know I was here?” You whispered.

“Henderson told me. For a kid, he has wicked arm strength, little shit.” You laughed as he rubbed the back of his head, letting out a little whine in pain.

sometimes you picture me, i’m walking too far ahead

“I’m sorry.” Eddie apologized, brushing back a strand of your hair. “I should have asked you to prom properly. I’m a terrible boyfriend. I mean look at you, you’re the most metal I’ve ever seen.” Eddie shook his head, pulling back to take in your dark black lace dress.

secrets stolen from deep inside, the drum beats out of time

“You’re not a terrible boyfriend, Eds. I mean look at us, look at you! We’re dancing at prom!” You smiled softly at him.

if you’re lost you can look and you will find me

“I feel like I’m losing my mind dancing with the prettiest girl in all of Hawkins High.” Eddie mumbled, looking down at you with love.

if you fall, i will catch you, i will be waiting

“I’m so proud of you baby. You didn’t run away this time. It’s finally your year. Never change Munson.”

Eddie pulled you in, closing the distance and placing his lips on yours.

time after time

time after time

time after time…

[doriandrifting]

Not a super hot take, but the point of Eddie Munson’s character is that he’s a hypocrite.

And that’s not me saying he’s not a great character or isn’t sympathetic. Him taking in Dustin, Mike, and Lucas as lost freshman was very kind. I really loved his character, but I feel like people misrepresent him a lot.

Eddie says “It’s forced conforming. That’s what’s…killing the kids!” It’s absolutely true, but then he proceeds to demean every other group of people in the lunch room. They’re apparently not enough of freaks like his group. Then he specifically lists interests that relate to our cast of characters, who are all deemed “freaks” in some way.

“But as long as you’re into band”

Vickie and Robin are in band.

“or science…”

The entire party used to compete in the science fair. Dustin and Suzie met at science camp.

“…or parties”

Steve likes parties. Nancy convinced Jonathan to go to a party, so I assume she usually likes them. Argyle says, “This is my kind of party!”

“or a game where you toss balls into laundry baskets…”

Lucas is on the basketball team.

And that’s all okay.

Eddie wasn’t exactly the guy he and a lot of viewers make him out to be. And I know that because of how he reacts to Erica. He takes one look at her and makes an assumption about her skill level, but Erica is the one to beat his sadistic campaign. Eddie’s basically the guy who tests you to make sure you’re a “real fan” when you mention liking Star Wars.

I mean, he was really unwilling to move his campaign by just a week for his friend Lucas? Why should any of our characters have to choose between their interests and DND? They shouldn’t, and the show was telling us that. When Eddie forces Mike and Dustin to pick between DND and Lucas’ basketball game, he represents forced conformity.

Now, Eddie does begin to realize he’s wrong, like when he tells Chrissy that she’s a freak, too. But his fate was already sealed by the narrative. And I imagine it’s why all the cast members who have been asked if they think he should have lived say no. There’s a lot that’s great about Eddie, but he seems to have forgotten that a campaign is nothing without the party.

[emblazons]

so I swore I was not going to start speculating off of set images, but given the one's we've gotten of Dustin so far, I cannot help myself (plus it's fun). Still: none of the theories I've seen so far make as much sense to me as this being tied to Dustin's trauma and him having a Vecna Vision/Flashback, which becomes clearer the more you put the details revealed in the images into the context we've been given by S4 + The Duffers.

First, the images I'm referencing (TW: IMAGE SPOILERS):

Separately, these things (the basketball players, Dustin's hellfire fit being the same at both the grave and school + him wearing Eddie's rings + Mike's hair & attire) all feel a bit disparate...until you remember the things both Dustin is trying to cope with (Eddie's death + feeling like an outsider) and the Duffers have said re: Eddie and his effect on the characters (listen if you can, its only 3 min). Why?

Well, because we know for a fact that 1) Dustin and Mike were the ones who felt most aligned with Eddie given their being bullied—

—even though we spent all of S4 building the bond between Dustin and Eddie in particular, because Mike was in California with Will.

Similarly (and while I know it's not primary canon), we get this context from Lucas in Lucas on the Line, which corroborates Dustin's comment about Lucas "making all his sports friends" and feeling deeply betrayed by that fact—

—and even stuff about Mike's appearance "not changing" (pre-hellfire, in the moments he's still in S3/regressive conformist territory +not embracing himself)....something that Eddie talks about in S4 when he comments on the look Mike had when he met him.

(I've also already commented on that Mike's shirt looks a lot like the one El wears post Rink-O-Mania in S4—which plays a lot into the idea of Mike giving El a shirt that represents conformity to him (just like her being his girlfriend does, given he cannot be himself in front of her at all in S4).

Combining all of these things though—Dustin being the only one who is in the Hellfire shirt (while all the other extras look a very "S1 good suburban kid" I/ first day of school), Mike showing up (also looking like his 'conformist' self in contrast), Basketball players being on the scene (the people Dustin felt stole Lucas from him)...combined with him in the same outfit at the grave of the person he felt defended him from those losses and challenges in high school?

It's giving Dustin's grief / worst thoughts thrown back at him 100%.

Given that Eddie, who he lost in an extremely traumatic fashion is the one who said forced conformity (which Mike is showing up dressed as alongside Lucas's basketball friends) killed the kids—

—and now they are facing off with Vecna (and Henry by extension, whose says shit like THIS) on top of asking people to "join him" in his displeasure with the world when he 'takes their souls?'

On top of the fact that we KNOW for a fact there is time fuckery coming for us...and it's likely enough that it's 'now 'canonically 1986 (or near it), which is reminiscent of this moment (likely remembered and traumatizing for Dustin specifically)?

Yeah. Flashback / lead up into Vecna torture is exactly what it gives to me—the things causing the event / the moments that lead into the torture. Especially knowing the scenes shot first (aka now) are generally more SFX complex because they take the most time.

bonus: @magentamee also brought up some great points on this theory here!

bonus bonus: I wrote something on Dustin and standing apart from relationship conformity as early as S3 here and wrote up the relationship he has with nonconformity today, which I think plays into his feelings of alienation / what Vecna might pull him apart from his friends by showing him.

[intothedysphoria]

Stranger Things has a serious problem with the way it portrays working class men.

In Eddie Munson’s first real introduction in the show, he is established as intense, cynical and somewhat of a societal dropout. None of these characteristics are particularly new in the world of Stranger Things but one thing Eddie says really sticks in my mind.

“Forced conformity. That’s what’s killing the kids.”

In the Duffers eyes I’m sure that’s just a way to establish Eddie as an outcast but what he ends up eluding to is an extremely depoliticised explanation of cultural hegemony. Established by Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci, cultural hegemony is the ruling class dictating cultural ideology and behaviour via institutional and social messaging. (In this case, the media creating a Satanic Panic around Dungeons and Dragons and encouraging parents to force their children to conform.)

Ironic, seeing as the privately educated Duffer’s are dictating what they allow to be seen as working class culture but I digress.

The Duffer’s have an extremely rigid view of what a working class man acts like and despite a show that preaches about the right to be different, that right is ultimately only given to the middle class characters. Working class characters are always fulfilling some kind of classist stereotype.

Take four examples here. Billy, Eddie, Jonathan and Argyle. On the surface, four distinctive and different characters. But once you start noticing the similarities, it’s hard to stop.

All of them are either confirmed to be from an unconventional family unit or don’t have family at all. There’s nothing wrong with coming from a non nuclear family but the way the Duffers portray them, there is always something “wrong.”

Billy has an abusive father and his mother left him at a young age, Jonathan has an abusive father and his mother has mental health difficulties, Eddie is living with his uncle and it’s implied that his father is incarcerated, Argyles parents aren’t there at all. Notice how the middle class families rarely have this level of domestic discord (especially with the point the Duffers make about all working class fathers being shitty parents. The only exceptions seem to be Wayne and Hop and Hop REALLY has his moments.)

There’s also some stereotypical hegemonic working class male value that Billy, Eddie, Argyle and Jonathan hold that makes them either antagonist (either in the narrative or in the fandom) or isn’t a good trait to have. Billy is aggressive, all of them are addicts (which is also racist stereotyping in Argyles case), Jonathan and Billy are sexually deviant (never mind the distinction that Jonathan committed a sex crime and Billy was just groomed, the Duffers certainly don’t.)

It’s also important to note the distinct lack of working class male characters who aren’t white at this point, this show has zero understanding of intersectionality.

In some areas I’m almost glad the Duffers at least understand that working class men have a culture, because all of the working class women on the show have no real attempts to be assigned any working class female attributes. On the other hand, I already know it would just be fucking misogyny yet again.

Just like the shows blatant misogyny, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, ableism, abuse apologia and holocaust denialism, the Duffers show no real care about the discriminatory nature of the way they portray the working class. Or the classism that the wider fandom regularly espouses against working class people and culture.

If Billy, Eddie, Jonathan and Argyle had been from a show created by working class writers, I probably would have significantly less problems with the way their characters are handled. Both because the clunky, stereotypical characterisation would have been erased and also because it would have been portrayals of a real life working class experience. Abuse, addiction, racism and violence are all real problems in working class communities.

But the Duffers don’t give a shit about that. All they do is create an upper middle class view of working class values.

There’s obviously something deeper lurking under what is seemingly just a nostalgia bait sci fi show, something that speaks to the way the media industry as a whole reinforces these attitudes towards marginalised and lower class communities, but that’s a conversation that I don’t yet feel qualified enough to initiate. So, I’ll leave it at this for now.

The Duffer Brothers are absolute fucking wankers.

[grey-and-green]

Ineffable (pre-2000's) Timeline

Before the Beginning 

We don’t know how long before The Beginning this was, or how long they may have known each other in ‘heaven’ before Eden. We don’t know if one (or both) of them had their memory of the other erased (I think there's quite a lot of speculation about this, so I can't link just one example).  

Angel!Crowley is the most adorable thing in all creation, but he asks some very innocent and appropriate questions and Aziraphale is scared for him (and maybe scared of him?) 

Crowley shelters Aziraphale with their wing. Adorable. Love it. 

4004 BC: Eden 

Aziraphale gives away his flaming sword in his first official act of doing-good-against-God’s-wishes and Crowley immediately fucking eats it up.

"You're an angel, I don't think you can do the wrong thing" is well-intentioned but probably sets up a less-than-helpful anchoring point for Aziraphale's morality (see various points below about Aziraphale's moral evolution trajectory and rationalising Heaven's actions).

Aziraphale shelters Crowley from the rain (and the best part is that Crowley moves in, closer to Aziraphale, BEFORE Aziraphale puts his wing up. Fucking lovebirds. Ridiculous) 

3004 BC: The Flood 

Crowley seeks out Aziraphale at the flood. Essentially just shows up to flirt.

Aziraphale clearly doesn’t like the flood-and-death plan but he also isn’t ready to speak negatively about God. He defends the flood as “not that bad” and goes all “no comment” about killing kids (because he can’t actually defend that bit). Not a huge fan of heaven already by this point, but either too brainwashed or too scared (or both) to actively say anything non-conforming out loud.

Crowley is appalled by the idea of killing children, has always been a rebellious little cinnamon roll.

“You still have one [unicorn]” implies that Crowley either doesn’t know the point of the Ark (unlikely, he didn’t show up here by chance) or he doesn’t know about the birds and the bees. (Is it at all possible that Bildad The Professional Cobbler/Midwife still didn’t know what sex and childbirth were? No solid evidence that he had any plan other than pulling the ribs out. He’s so stupid)

(Theory: Others have considered that this meeting was more involved than what we’ve been shown so far because 1- by the Job incident Aziraphale is real damn convinced that Crowley won’t hurt the kids and 2- “sudden rainstorm forces them together under a canopy” doesn’t actually fit with either of the times our lovebirds sheltered the other under their respective wings, because neither time was sheltering “together”. So maybe this sudden rainstorm is what Crowley is actually referencing and there’s more here we haven’t seen). (Theory 2.0 is this wildly long meta that basically is a dissertation on why the kissed during the Flood and I’m here for it).

2500 BC: The Job Incident 

Ugh, I love this episode. Nothing but endless love for our baby Bildad.  

Appears to be a chance meeting between them.

They BOTH DEFY ORDERS to save the children.  

When the bird-goats make a noise, Crowley turns around before Aziraphale says anything. He was HOPING that Aziraphale would catch on, he was baiting his Angel to see that he was going to save the kids. Which, I mean, we all already know Crowley is a softie and he’s not really tried that hard to hide it from Aziraphale in the history we’ve seen so far, so…tone down the evil demon cosplay, babe. We’re past that.

Crowley saving the kids isn’t surprising. But we actually have a big jump for Aziraphale here. When we originally only had the Flood and the Crucifixion in S1, the evolution of Aziraphale’s “defence” of Heaven seems subtle and slow between those two short scenes. But throwing this epic story in the middle? Genuinely a MASSIVE shift from rationalising Heaven’s plans for the flood to assuming he knows what God is thinking + actively collaborating with a demon and trusting a demon more than his fellow angels + willing to be literally damned to save three random kids. (Could easily argue that this seeming anachronism in Aziraphale’s arc [along with Bildad’s stupid hair] makes it all the more plausible that there is a magic trick happening here).

Aziraphale says that Crowley is “technically” a demon. (I see what you’re getting at there. I see you, Aziraphale) 

Aziraphale tries human food for the first time. Odd sexual tension. I won’t elaborate.

When Aziraphale is sitting by the ocean, he’s waiting to be punished and thinks that’s why Crowley came over. But Crowley doesn’t know this. He was just coming over to spend more time with Aziraphale for totally platonic reasons.

Crowley has the chance to take Aziraphale to hell as a demon, and declines (hmmm, foreshadowing us all getting our hearts ripped out a few short episodes later???) 

Crowley’s appearance: people have speculated on why they look so different here compared to the Flood and the Crucifixion. My theory is that the other to flashbacks (seen in S1) are Crowley going about her life and just popping in to flirt with Aziraphale, whereas with Job, Crowley is showing up to work. The Bildad getup is a work outfit, demon cosplay. Long hair and no sunglasses is Crowley being himself, and silly hair silly glasses is creating a character to play while hiding his eyes because humans are around AND he’s vulnerable when hell is watching.

Bonus happy thought: when they get the kids in the cellar they start bickering like an old married couple/BLATANTLY flirting and the kids are just...so confused. Fucking delightful.  

33 AD: Crucifixion 

Crowley seeks out Aziraphale.  

Crowley has changed their name.  

By this time, when Crowley says “Heaven’s being a bit shitty” Aziraphale doesn’t actually defend Heaven? “I’m not consulted on policy decisions” is much closer to “I know they’re awful but I can’t change anything” as opposed to trying to rationalise that heaven must, by default, be good. (See note above about Aziraphale’s non-linear moral evolution).

Not much else here except Crowley looking their absolute most gorgeous in all of history.  

41 AD: Rome 

Crowley having a bad day. A lot of people have written about how after the Crucifixion and everything else that has happened so far, baby bean is fucking disillusioned as all hell.  

Crowley makes obvious ploy to get Aziraphale to ask him on a date, and it works. Delightful.  

Bonus happy thought: the little pins each of them is wearing on their togas? The fucking angel wings and the snake? Nothing but love for the Good Omens costume department.

537 AD: Wessex knights

No idea if they’ve met between Rome and now, but I’m pretty sure they have? Aziraphale recognizes Crowley’s voice immediately, I feel like they’ve talked sometime (oodles of times?) in the previous 500 years.  

Proposed Arrangement. Aziraphale very dramatically declines for corporate reasons. Not so much “working together is wrong” but that “working together is against the rules”.  

Could possibly argue that this feels like a step backwards for Aziraphale since the Job incident. But I think, no? With Job, the stakes were high and they were literally saving innocent lives. Here, The Arrangement is presented more like cheating on homework. Like, this is just a report for work, I’m not going to risk being reprimanded for something trivial like faking a sick day. Because Aziraphale still wants Heaven’s (God’s) approval quite badly: he’ll risk his life to save human lives, but not to save himself a trek to a castle.

1601: Globe Theatre 

By the now The Arrangement is well established. Aziraphale puts up a very lazy fight against it, but caves almost immediately.  

We can see already that Aziraphale is concerned that Crowley could get in trouble over their relationship, but I don’t think he has really realized how much danger Crowley is in? Like, if he genuinely thought destruction was on the line, he might have protested more. But it’s still important here that Aziraphale is concerned with Crowley’s safety above his own.  

I believe Aziraphale asked Crowley to meet up at the theatre from what Crowley says about “you said we would blend in with the crowds”.  

Bonus happy thought: I’ve seen people speculate about whether the coin toss was rigged. I choose to believe they BOTH rigged it so that Aziraphale would go to Scotland bc Crowley didn’t want to go, and Aziraphale knows that Crowley can’t ride a horse so was totally keen to save him from that ordeal.  

1650: not shown

Something happens and Aziraphale does the “I was wrong” dance 

I wrote elsewhere that this could be a promise of something we will be shown in Season 3 -OR- it could be a Clue that memories are missing (see The Magic Trick You Didn’t See)

Also, despite all the wonderful suggestions people have from actual history about what these two might have gotten mixed up in in 1650, my personal prediction is that if we see this in Season 3, the actual Thing that led to the dance will be extremely trivial, like Aziraphale knocks over Crowley's drink or something.

1793: The Bastille 

Aziraphale gets himself in a damsel-in-distress situation and Crowley “has to” save him. Obvious ploy to go on a date. Flawless.

Crowley is clearly following Aziraphale around, since he showed up at exactly the right time. Zero coincidence detected.

Aziraphale has absolutely no issue with the executioner being beheaded in his place. Bit ruthless to sacrifice a random stranger for the cause of taking your crush out to lunch.

At some point, Aziraphale does the “I was wrong” dance here. Hopefully over crepes.  

1827: Scotland 

Crowley essentially just takes Aziraphale on a date to a graveyard. Such a mood.  

Some obvious moral struggles for Aziraphale starting to realize that good and bad are not black and white and that extenuating circumstances exist.  

Whether or not you believe that this memory was tampered with, when Morag is dying, Aziraphale essentially asks for Crowley’s moral guidance. He could have just healed Morag, but he defers to Crowley for ?permission...I don’t know for sure, but it feels significant that he wants Crowley’s approval here before doing ‘good’. That has to mean something.  

“Last I saw of him for some time” is, at most, 35 years between here and St James Park, which means they are meeting up a lot more frequently now. We’re not regularly going decades/centuries between dates anymore. 

Edit: As others have noted, the wording in this diary entry is actually odd because when Aziraphale is writing this, he MUST have already seen Crowley again for that last bit to make sense. Which means we actually probably have quite a lot of “us time” between the Elsbeth flashback and St James park.

1862: St James Park 

Likely Definitely not the first time they have met up since the Scotland flashback (see edit above).

I THINK this is the first time we see Aziraphale’s personal tartan show up? He’s now officially created his own clan on Earth and is NOT wearing the official tartan of heaven. He later gives this tartan to Crowley which is Significant. 

Since our last meeting, Crowley has been dragged back to Hell and, presumably, punished, for what he did with Elsbeth/Morag. (The time spent in Hell was likely not necessarily a LONG time but still seems like it was a sobering event for Crowley where he seems to catch up with Aziraphale about how much danger they might be in).

Crowley asks for the holy water because he now realizes that he may need to protect himself (and Aziraphale?) from Hell if and when they figure out the scope of his ‘breach of the infernal code’ and retaliate.

1941: London Blitz 

Accepted by fans as likely the first time they have met up since the breakup in St James Park. As with the Bastille scene, it’s very clear that Crowley has been keeping track of Aziraphale (if not actively just following him around).

Obviously, canonically, the moment when Aziraphale realizes he is in love with Crowley.

Immediately after this realization, Aziraphale also realises how much Crowley is at risk from Hell by continuing to associate with him. This does not stop them from having a romantic glass of wine back at the bookshop.

Photograph of Crowley and Aziraphale exists, no clues as to what happens to it/who keeps it after the events of this night. I hope it’s in the photo album that I assume Aziraphale keeps with his diaries and little drawings of Crowley he’s made over the millennia.

At some point, presumably on this same night, Aziraphale does the “I was wrong” dance, but we don’t get to see that. Yet.

(Side note: I feel like by this point in their relationship, it’s really got to sting when Aziraphale assumes Crowley is the cause of whatever horrific thing humans are doing. I mean, what in the past 6,000 years would point to Crowley wanting to actually help nazis? It’s not funny anymore, Aziraphale, stop re-traumatising your boyfriend with baseless accusations.)

1967: Soho Heist 

Crowley plans the heist in the pub that is literally across the road from Aziraphale’s book shop 

Aziraphale finally gives Crowley holy water – whether this is because he’s actually worried about the danger of the heist, or if he has just come to his senses about the fact that Crowley is in mortal danger from Hell and may actually need a way to escape them if things go pear-shaped, or whether he’s just acts-of-love reaching out....could speculate for days on that.

He gives Crowley the holy water in a thermos with his personal tartan on it. 100% on their own side. Adorable.

Aziraphale isn’t wearing his bow tie in this scene. He still has his tartan, but he’s wearing it as a cravat instead, with his shirt unbuttoned at the top. I genuinely don’t know what this is supposed to mean, but the costume department is too good for it to be random. (It supposed to be flirty? Like, ooh, top button undone, basically naked? And that just necessitated losing the bow tie? Is there sartorial symbolism here about a cravat vs bow tie that I’m missing? Tell me what’s going on!?!)

“You go too fast for me” (ugh, gutted every time) 

Additional event: year unknown

In their earlier flashbacks, we see them travelling the world for their jobs.

At some point they both end up permanently stationed in London.

My assumption is - that originally it was just the two of them on earth, possibly for thousands of years. Then their territory was limited to the British Isles, and eventually, when there were too many “oodles” of humans, they both ended up just looking after London.

So, who was assigned to London first? Because it’s not a blind coincidence they’re both specifically in London - one got assigned to the London first and the other one deliberately FOLLOWED.

I am still updating this as I re-watch and read other folks’ posts.

These are mostly my observations with a few additional things thrown in that I’ve seen people discuss already here on Tumblr. I will try to link to them best I can, but my Good Omens saved posts are massive and I’m not sure I can find all the original posts who's theories I’ve mentioned here

[wilcze-kudly]

The Kuvira/Suyin parallels

So, this is piggybacking off my previous post about the Opal/Lin parallels, and to be honest I've always loved making this comparison, wince it's just so damn ironic and juicy.

Suyin and Kuvira are, of course, adversaries through a lot of the show, however, I think it's, mostly due to their similarities.

Both Kuvira and Suyin are, at their cores, leaders of their self made factions. Both also built said factions as coping mechanisms to the abandonment/neglect they experienced as children.

Both these characters garner the affection they lacked as children by having people depending on them. And also controlling said people. Suyin, by building a city and clan she was the matriarchal of. And closer to her, personally, keeping her family tight knit and her children isolated from the wider world and heavily dependent on her. As for Kuvira, it projecting her trauma onto a suffering nation and fashioning herself into being a hero of the people. Someone the people adored.

You don't really need to do a lot of mental gymnastics for this one. They were both isolated and lonely as kids, so they created environments where they were important and revered.

There's clear pressure from both these women for their "people" to conform to the rules they set. Suyin threatens Kuvira and Baatar Jr with banishment. One another occasion, she enables Korra's hunt for Aiwei, despite the obvious risk this endeavour would bring. While Kuvira's methods of control are more... barbaric? I'd call concentration camps barbaric but to each their own.

Suyin 🤝 Kuvira threatening poor earthbender himbos. God I wish that were me.😨👀Haha who said that?

They're fiercely protective of their carefully crafted status quo, since it is, essentially, a coping mechanism. The further it falls apart, the further their own psyche does too.

Suyin's qorst nightmare is her family and city falling apart, while for Kuvira it is when her Empire crumbles.

They can become increasingly manic and desperate the more danger their 'works' are, tossing any moral code or even sanity out the window.

They'll grasp at any straws to protect what's theirs. Suyin pressured Korra into going into the Avatar state, despite Korra's clear discomfort. Kuvira, meanwhile, harnessed the energy of the spirit vines and laid waste to Republic City.

There both even willing to endanger their allies, even those closest to them. Suyin taking her youngest sons on a dangerous mission to try and kill Kuvira (someone they most likely knew as children) while Kuvira herself nearly murdered Baatar Jr, her fiancé and closest supporter, just for the chance of taking out Korra. Rip Beifong brothers you really are the true victims here.

This desperation is understandable... its all they have. Both Kuvira and Suyin grew up alone, feeling unloved by their families. This led them to acting out. Be it for attention or any other reason, they ended up being too much to handle for their parents

We all know about Suyin scarring Lin, right? And this being part of the reason Suyin was forced to leave her home and dropped off at her grandparents. I find it interesting that it is implied that Kuvira too severely injured her mother, perhaps this also being the catalyst for her being given away by her parents too.

Perhaps because Suyin's second chance was so good for her, she wished to extend one to a troubled young girl. I firmly believe she saw a lot of herself in Kuvira (for better or for worse). The line about "hurting someone in this family" easily made me think of what Suyin did to Lin and see that she regrets it and doesn't want Kuvira to go through the same.

Regret, however does not fix all and neither Kuvira, nor Suyin know how to atone for what they've done.

It seems hard for either of these characters to understand the hurt they've caused nor that their actions have consequences. However, Suyin and Kuvira are treated rather kindly by the narrative. We've seen planty of people talk about how Su is coddled by the show's writing. And Kuvira is treated with a similar gentle hand. Redemption is a muddy subject for me, however I will say that bothese very complex and fascinating characters were done extremely dirty by shallow writing.

However, I will finish this long silly ramble by saying that it is very in character for Su to forgive Kuvira, despite this possibly making her children uncomfortable.

A huge part of Suyin's ideology is believing in second chances. However it runs deeper than that. As stated before, her family is the most important thing in the world to her. And Kuvira is part of that family. It's not surprising that Su is hurriedly doing damage control on everything after B4 and everything that happened.

I find Kuvira and Suyin fascinating characters. Their trauma, their drive and the mild insanity with delusions of grandeur is what really pulls together these two tormentors of the Beifong family together for me. ❤️

-

Also, on a side note. I find it very curious when people like one of these characters, but dislike the other, since they are so similair with their arcs and personalitywise. If you are a Kuvira stan and a Suyin hater or a Suyin stan and a Kuvira hater, could you clue me in a little on the thought process? Is it like. Just vibes? Or is it one of the small differences between Su and Kuvira that feels so jarring that it seperates them completely?

[chirpsythismorning]

Fun fact: the shot of Mike stepping off the cliff in s1 was likely a visual parallel to Sarah jumping off the stairs in this shot from Labyrinth (1986).

For those that haven't read this theory, please do because I didn’t make these observations myself and the original post goes a lot deeper into the details from Labyrinth, which in some ways align a little too conveniently with the narrative we’re seeing unravel on the show with Mike over the seasons.

For some basic context, in s4, we even get a reference to M.C. Escher’s Relativity hanging on the wall in Mike’s room, which is also on the wall of Sarah’s bedroom, along with that work being what inspired the scene in Labyrinth. 

This next part has actually been talked about before quite a bit in the fandom, even outside of tumblr, so it’s not exactly some breakthrough as a concept on its own.

Every season, in the first scene (re)introducing the main characters, Mike is running late in some capacity. In 1x01 it’s around 3 minutes, in 2x01 it’s around 6 minutes, in 3x01 it’s around 8 minutes, and in 4x01 it’s around 13 minutes. 

So technically not the literal season opener, as that’s usually reserved to a flashback at some different location, but obviously still within those first 15 minutes, following directly after the opener…

And since we already have an idea of what the opening of s5 is going to be, what do we think the scene directly after it is going to be? You know, in the scene that Mike has been consistently running late in, for four seasons now?

Speaking of 15 minutes, I think that if they were to keep this trend going for the final season (the full circle-ness of it all is honestly too epic to pass up), it’s likely that this final time it will happen around the 15 minute mark of 5x01, as that would make the build up for it each season pretty consistent.

And not only that, but it would also literally be a callback to what Karen says to Mike that first time he’s late in s1: 

And here’s my other favorite line from one of these scenes, in the context of this theory, because it literally acknowledges this concept directly and with this air of foreshadowing I cannot stress enough:

Interestingly, another detail that ties all these ‘Mike being late’ scenes together, is stairs.

In s1 he’s running up the stairs to convince his mom to let them keep playing.

In s2 he’s rushing down the stairs trying to avoid Nancy’s wrath.

In s3 he’s awkwardly bumping into strangers going down the escalator in Starcourt Mall.

And in s4 he’s hurrying down the stairs on his way to school.

The whole point of Labyrinth is that it’s an allegory for growing up, with Sarah going from dressing up as a princess to reenact one of her favorite fairytales after being chastised by her step-mom for not going on more dates like girls her age, to Sarah rejecting her childhood and it leading to an unfortunate series of events, forcing her to face reality and take responsibility of her own life.

Does this sound like anyone we know?

Mike, who starts the show in s1 playing DND animatedly with his friends before being interrupted by his mom to end the campaign despite protests, to his mom in s2 punishing his bad behavior by having him get rid of some of his favorite toys, to him in s3 insisting that they’re 'not kids anymore' and that it was inevitable for them to stop playing games and grow up and get girlfriends, to him now in s4 reverting back to this earlier version of himself, sporting the Hellfire shirt proudly, to then reverting back to pretending when showing up at the airport with Argyle calling his outfit a shitty knock off (aka calling Mike a shitty knock-off), and without the story ever acknowledging why those shifts happened in the first place, and with one season left?

Hint? Forced conformity. That’s what’s killing the kids. That’s the real monster.

They literally told us already that out of all the monster we've seen in the show, this is what is worse than all of that. Meaning that what is about to go down, most likely topping everything we've seen up to this point, is likely going to involve forced conformity.

I also think it’s interesting that the scene in Labyrinth happened during the climax of the film, because arguably if you were to watch Stranger Things in its entirety, from s1-5, the beginning of s5 is going to feel very much like the climax to the overall story. 

Things are going to be happening fast. The stakes are insane because they need to top everything that they’ve done up to this point. Something’s gotta give. And Mike is just not looking safe out here guys.

I could go on and on about all the hints that Mike is danger, but I’ll just share my favorites. 

How am I gonna survive a whole week without you guys? Mike says, at the tail end of his opening scene in s4, and with s5 set to start at the end of said week.

Mike sitting in front of an antique funeral home fan in the s4 promotional pictures of the party in the Creel attic.

Nancy saying she saw Mike die in the vision Vecna showed her, with the early stages of said vision coming true as season 4 nears its end.

Mike getting hit in the head with an arrow front and center by Suzie’s brother, in a sequence that was loaded with foreshadowing for the end of s4 (and beginning of s5?).

Watch out dominos. Your dominos are gonna fall. Argyle says, with Mike equally in the frame behind him.

Without heart, we’d all fall apart. Will says, after telling Mike he’s the heart.

A Karen lookalike standing in front of the missing person's board at the end of s4.

Mike’s very first line in the show (also the literal first line in the show) being A shadow grows on the wall behind you, swallowing you into the darkness. It is almost here…

So maybe, theoretically speaking, what we could get by that 15 minute mark going into s5, is Mike running late one last time, and it potentially being a callback to that cliff scene ie. Labyrinth.

Another scene that I think might've been foreshadowing what is currently going down, is Max and Mike both getting knocked out by Billy at the end of s3. Max goes down first and Mike follows right after, though Max is the first to come to and help them both up.

We know Max is unlikely to be separated from the rest of the characters the whole season, that’s just not feasible. She'll at least be on-screen despite maybe not being back with the others right away, even if it’s just a cryptic cliffhanger at the end of 5x01, followed by her returning more consistently on screen after that leading up to her rescue. With the way things ended in s4 though, we need to know where she’s at and get to finding her. Which is why I think at most it will be a 1-2 episode arc.

So maybe, this moment from s3 was a hint about Max and Mike’s impending doom at the hands of Vecna, as a result of not only their emotional states, but also their bonds with El, and them then being isolated for a short time (presumed dead), only to find their way back?

It’s also worth noting Mike was the only person to witness any of Max’s symptoms from the curse prior to her finding out about it, with the camera focusing on him beside her and looking at her worriedly as her nose bled. We don’t know who Vecna’s fourth victim was going to be, because Max threw herself in as bait, but could it have originally been Mike?

I know a lot of people don't like the Mike getting Vecna'd theories or Mike is depressed takes and so if you find yourself in that position, feel free to subtweet away or whatever you need to cope with my nonsense.

I'm not a big Mike is suicidal truther or anything even, nor do I think it makes sense for him to get Vecna'd in the traditional sense like how it happened with the others in s4 because the gates are open. But Vecna still hasn’t carried out his entire plan, a plan that includes Mike dying. And the imagery surrounding it all leading up to this is compelling regardless.

If one shot at the end of s3, with Max sitting in Billy's room while Hopper was in the background saying and yeah sometimes it's painful and sometimes it's sad was enough to hint at her whole depression arc in s4, then Mike being focused on for multiple shots while Hopper was in the background saying But, lately, I guess I've been feeling... distant from you. Like you're pulling away from me or something.-- And I guess, if I'm being really honest, that's what scares me. I don't want things to change, with Mike looking longingly at the Byers house, cutting to Will looking out the car window crying, then cutting back to Mike walking into his mom's arms with a dead stare on his face, has gotta be enough to justify dude going through some shit, which coincidentally matches up with everything talked about here.

Turns out getting to Mike, now that was the key…

Maybe the first episode of s5 is about Mike ending up wherever Max is, somewhere caught in between, and them ‘crawling’ back ie. The Crawl.

Definitely might add some context to that funkopop shot-listing video Ross posted, followed by one other photo a few days later with the caption being that they finished shot-listing for 5x01-5x02. Meaning the initial video posted was likely from 5x01...

[euryleli]

I don't think anyone from the byers-hopper family is going to die!

I would love to hear more about your theories regarding this subject if you really think there's an actual chance of characters like Will and El (or even Jonathan) dying in st5 - because from where I stand, I just... can't see it happening!

It doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons!

First there's Will: a closeted gay teen from the 80s living his WORST life in smalltown, Indiana. Will, a boy who has been bullied his entire life not only by his peers but also by his own fucking father - all in the name of this inherent otherness he carries that's been associated with his queerness since episode 1 from s1!! The boy that's always described as kind, honest and sensitive - the little kid who changed the world of every single one of his loved ones with his absence. William Byers, the boy who went to hell, spent a week there and then came back all wrong, slowly losing his identity because he was fucking possessed by this otherworldly creature - who was burned out of him, mind you AND the after effects of his frolicking in the upside down for seven days straight and late possession by freaky monster #1 led to a connection that haunts him TO THIS DAY!

THEN (because it can't get better) we have stranger things season 3 and 4 where will byers gets beaten time and time again by forced conformity, internalized homophobia and, of course, the usual supernatural Horrors that we're all acquainted with (and that have a canonical narrative connection to all the issues previously mentioned but wtv)!

Ur telling me that this boy who hasn't known A SINGLE DAY OF PEACE in his LIFE (because Will had it bad before the upside down), who's the only confirmed gay character (as of now) AND the one who doesn't believe he can or even deserves love?? Is going to die??? This boy is not gonna have his happy ending? Will Byers, the starting point of this whole story is gonna be used as a pawn to... what? Further develop a straight relationship that actively hinders the arc of the female main character (El)? His death is gonna "complete" his arc and we'll deal with another case of the "Bury Your Gays" trope? Mike's character is gonna be buried alongside Will then because if his ending is one of conformity then all his actions throughout the series make no god-damned sense - basically he's just an asshole and an awful fucking friend? What the actual fuck??

So... Will dies, saves everyone but leaves Joyce and Jonathan completely heartbroken? Even when their love for Will is what kick-started the whole show? The show started with us rooting for them to find Will and they did!

But oh... wait... he died lol

It doesn't make sense, narratively speaking.

"What about El, then?" you ask!

Look, I'm slightly scared for her too but I genuinely think they're not gonna kill her off and the main reason is Hopper. What's the point of having Hopper grieve Sarah, his first daughter who tragically dies at a young age from cancer, just to make him start coping with her loss, bonding with El - actively viewing her as his family - to then take that family from him A SECOND TIME?? WHAT'S THE POINT OF THAT?

Aside from El's arc and her development as a young girl who was robbed of her childhood and sense of self for so long finally coming into her own person (not Hopper, not Mike, just El), killing her off is an efficient way to ruin not one but TWO of the most beloved characters in stranger things.

Having either Will, El or both of them dying in the finale would be a tragedy and yes, stranger things has it's moments where everything goes wrong and people die (and stay dead) but...

It's not supposed to be a tragedy.

That's not the kind of show we're watching.

Hell, you can say that they're going to kill the other family members then! But I don't see them killing Joyce or even Jonathan (although I can admit I'm not fully confident on that last one) because - again - it defeats the whole purpose of the show and Hopper came back from the dead already, the duffer brothers are not gonna kill him AGAIN (El grieving her father a second time is just as bad as Hopper grieving Sarah, then El)

The Byers are the heart of the show and sure... stranger things s3 and s4 kind of lost the plot on that front, but we're definitely getting back with willel and their final arcs in s5 (their family, now with Hopper and El, will be heavily featured in their development)

So, yeah...

Stranger Things is, fortunately, not a tragedy - and considering the love I have for all the characters (especially the Byers-Hopper) I can't say I'm upset about it.

[meatychunks]

Conan the Barbarian and how it correlates to Mike's inner struggles

I know the topic of Mike's bedroom has been talked to death, whether it's the one-way sign or the buff dragon with nipples poster. However, rarely do I ever see talks on the Conan the Barbarian poster or even on the film itself, which is properly due to the film being somewhat notorious for its terrible treatment of women.

Whenever I do see it, people usually stick it up to being a part of his gay sexual awaking, which was sprinkled throughout his introduction in this season. And while I agree that's a part of it, I believe that they choose this film specifically rather than its sequel (which was only two years old in 86') for its depictions of minorities and masculinity to perfectly sum up his struggles with not only conformity but also toxic masculinity of the 1980s.

A HEADS-UP WITH TALKS OF SEXISM, RAPE, HOMOPHOBIA PLUS BREIF NUDITY.

Let's start with how it portrays sensitivity among men. Right off the bat, we see the film favours traditional masculine values with a conversation between Conan and his father shortly before the massacre of his tribe by the doom cult, with him telling Conan not to trust anyone and allow himself to be vulnerable, only trusting the steel of his sword which, in the film's own words, was founded by men.

Rather than this being a critique on how men are often been forced out of emotional availability by generations before them, it's taken as words of wisdom that Conan takes to heart as we see him from a scrawny kid that lost everything to a muscular killing machine, stripped from sensitivity and is seen by other characters as the prime specimen of man.

Male sensitivity is often depicted as a weakness and is unsurprisingly lumped with homosexuality as something to be ridiculed. We see this as Conan tries to sneak into the temple of the cult by pretending to be a shy and nervous bystander while wearing flowers (to which he says "for a girl" when being asked the purpose of them the scene prior), this attracts the attention of a priest who makes suggestive comments about his body all while caressing his chest. He asks to continue their discussion in private, an obvious implication of a hookup, and ends up getting killed by Conan.

Not only it's presented as something antagonistic with the act of desiring another man seen as something perverse, but also, the implications of GNC men shouldn't be taken seriously and only seen as a target for sexual assault.

Traditional masculinity carries into how women are represented. With it not only their screen time is few and far between but also only serve as sexual reward to male characters or to show off their power, women who don't fall into this category are usually ridiculed by our main protagonist, often being called sluts or hoes. They are disregarded shortly after their introduction by being killed and/or raped (including a woman being raped by Conan during his montage to power).

The only recurring female character is Valeria (we only find that's her name in the film's credits, so take that what you will) who gives the illusion of a strong character with being able to fight aside the male characters and her snarky attribute during her introduction, but ultimately ends up being a tool for Conan by falling into the wife role with her never being able to have true goals of her own. She disappears from narrative, only to show up towards the end for a tiny bit to meet her demise.

The poster reflects her role in the narrative with its composition, with her kneeling down so the viewers' eyes lead up to the main piece Conan, just an add-on to show his power.

Now that's not to say it doesn't cater to female viewers (and unknowingly to queer men) by taking full advantage of the female gaze with multiple lingering close-up shots of Conan, some framed in suggestive angles and even scenes only exiting just to show off Arnold Schwarzenegger's muscular frame (take the random sex scene with the witch for example). And while there is female nudity, like women in this film, it's treated with a lot less care with being in wide shots and going just as quickly as it appears.

Which finally brings us to this film's queer coding. It's common for macho action films to fall into homoerotic undertones due to their misogynistic tendencies, this film being no different with it being parodied in other media, even during its initial release, particularly in underground comics.

An example I like to bring up is Conan's "first time" in a fight. He's confused and nervous as he's thrust into battle bare apart from a loin cloth and is attacked by his opponent, but as the fight progresses, he gets more confident and begins to relish in it.

Overall, the film does serve escapism for it's male audience with its power fantasy elements, but rather of it being done through our main protagonist, it's done through the world where the narrative inhabits with it taking pride that worth is achieved through physical strength, wealth and sexual conquest. And while the narrative is the classic trope of the underdog going against a figure of high power, even they can't help finding his lifestyle appealing.

Now....

What does this tell us about Mike?

Well, we know that his family often emotionally neglect him and encourage him to give up vulnerability (i.e., making him give up his childhood toys that have emotional value and viewing his outbursts as just "delinquent behaviour").

His poor treatment towards El starting when they are together at the start of season 3. Starting off somewhat small with implicitly being disinterested in her when they are actually alone, take their conversation during his bike ride to the mall during his introduction or him jumping on the first chance he got on reducing their time together when Hopper stepped in (despite going against his wishes when it came to looking for Will in season 1).

However, when she starts to gain some independence through Max and stops being "his pet", rather than admit his mistakes and apologise like how Lucas does with Max or how he does to Will shortly after upsetting him, he starts using sexist language and starts to get controlling when said independence is applied to her use of powers.

His implicit homophobia during his projection, when Will (Who is canonically considered GNC during this time) implies his changed in behaviour as something negative.

And this might be a stretch, but maybe him tying his self-worth to whether or not he is able to provide and protect is also due to the societal pressures of gender roles and him feeling inferior to El could possibly be a hint of jealousy due to her being able to fulfil said roles despite her gender.

And we all know he has a certain type when it comes to men.

[robynrocksforbrains]

I'm about to ramble like I've never rambled before.

Season five is going to have the most well executed displays of affection and romantic moments not only because byler will be happening but also because this show has always been about LOVE. Love has been constant throughout the entire show. It's always been about love saving the day. Which is why we see what happens when love is unwavering. When it's hidden. When it's suppressed. We see the consequences of believing there is a "right way" to love. We see the consequences of performing love. And we see the rewards of just loving. No matter what other people say. No matter if people think you're crazy. If you love someone you fight for them even when everyone tells you it's wrong. Or that you shouldn't. Or that you should give up.

That is most prevalent in season one and two.

In season one the whole town thinks Joyce is crazy. But she says it herself "Maybe I'm crazy! Maybe I'm out of my mind! But god help me I will keep these lights up until the day I die if I think there's a chance that Will is still out there!" Jonathan and Nancy team up to kill the demogorgon because they love Will and Barb respectively. Mike, Lucas, and Dustin continue to search for Will even when it will get them in trouble. Even when it's dangerous. Even when everyone believes he's dead. They keep searching and they keep fighting because they love him.

In season two Joyce, Jonathan, and Mike do not stop trying to reach Will. Even when he appears to be gone, they keep reaching. And once they reach him they keep holding on. And even when Will tells them to close the gate, likely knowing it will kill him, they don't accept that. Joyce finds a way. Mike, Lucas, Dustin, Max, and Steve find a way to give El and Hopper a fighting chance. All of their actions are fueled by unwavering love and loyalty for each other.

This show has always been about love. It has been the lifeblood of the entire series. It has been a constant, so much so that you almost become blind to it. Because unwavering love is the baseline, you don't really notice it until something changes. That's what seasons three and four did. They made us notice that the baseline existed in the first place. We started to see fluctuations.

In season three, Mike and El are constantly off in their own little world, they aren't considerate of their friends. Will is feeling completely and totally isolated and like the group is falling apart. Dustin is separated from them for the entire season. Will says it best in the rain fight "where's Dustin? See you don't know and you don't even care! And obviously he doesn't either and I don't blame him!". The Party has their good moments in season three, but gone is the shameless love and unwavering support that they once offered each other. Lucas and Mike leave Will out and make fun of him. Which is so unlike them. None of them actually believe Suzie exists, and they humor Dustin in a condescending manner. Dustin isn't an idiot, he knew that they were being condescending. But he chose to give them the benefit of the doubt and tolerate them because it was so unusual for them to be so mean to each other. In conclusion, season three shows us the consequence of the loss of that unwavering and unselfish love.

(color code for this point on: genuine love / performance / something that is not loving)

In season four, there is even more fluctuating. The season starts off with El lying in her letter to Mike. Ending a letter of lies with "Love, El". Which is an interesting juxtaposition to the concept of "true love". Will's feelings are spotlighted by the mention of the painting and the "girl" he might like. Mike and Dustin are not supportive of Lucas, and they are not there to celebrate his accomplishments. Will is supportive of El and tries to comfort her in the face of her "failures". (Not that I think her class presentation was a failure, she did amazing. But she felt like she had failed.) Lucas continues to reach out to Max and pay attention to her even when she continuously pushes him away; even when she's mean. We see Mike and El putting on fake smiles, it's clear that they can't be themselves in this relationship. They're once again ignoring Will. Mike and Will fight again. Mike and El have their fight about Mike's inability to say "I love you" and about how he makes El feel like a monster. Joyce and Murray go to FUCKING RUSSIA to save Hopper. Mike and Will begin to patch up their relationship. Will gives Mike the painting and along with it his veiled love confession. And although it's hidden behind a flimsy lie, it is such a beautiful act of love. Because the lie is not selfish. He's lying because he believes it is what's best for Mike, not himself. He hands over his heart on a silver platter for Mike and tells him that it's someone else's because he believes that's what Mike needs. Although it is dishonest, it is closer to the concept of "true love" than El's letter from the beginning of the season. (Not a lot of consistency. Well, there's consistent inconsistency. This season is so far from the baseline)

And then we have Mike's monologue. Mike's monologue that brings the concept of "love saves the day" to front and center stage. And for the first time we see them completely and utterly lose.

(I'd like to say that I hate the way people say that the deaths in season 4 are Mike's fault because of the monologue. They are not his fault, he is 14 oh my god please stop putting that on him. But the loss is crucial to understanding why that baseline I was talking about is so important.)

In the first two seasons, when we were at this "baseline", the show never told us that love was going to save the day. It didn't have to tell us. It was obvious, but not in a dramatic and cheesy way. The monologue is dramatic and cheesy. It uses romance tropes that no one actually likes. It doesn't line up with any of Mike's behavior throughout the entire show. This is the first time that the show states over and over again "love is going to save the day". It's this big dramatic moment that falls flat on its face because we have never needed them to tell us this before. So why are they telling us now?

"Forced conforming. That's what's killing the kids."

For the first time, stranger things conforms to the usual dramatics of the "love saves the day" trope. And a kid literally dies.

In season one, when they find Will in the UD, we know what has led to this moment. We know that Joyce has fought her way to this moment fueled by nothing but unwavering love and an unyielding belief that her son was out there. That he was alive. Then they find him dead. But Joyce and Hopper fought for Will for that entire week, why would they stop fighting now. So Hopper starts cpr, and it's an intense moment. But it's not dramatic. It's just real, and raw. It's a mother desperately begging her son to come back to her. And Will lives.

Compare that to the dramatics of the monologue while Max is being murdered? It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened there.

El brings Max back in a quiet moment. She finds her resolve and she says "No. You're not going." And this moment feels similar to when Will was resuscitated. Lucas is sobbing and desperate for someone to help. And El helps. That moment is not a performance. No one is there to see what she does. That moment is an act of true love. It's not fueled by a dramatic monologue. It's just love. For this one moment, we come back to the baseline.

Season four was about the performance of love. And conforming to the "right way" to love. That is why they failed.

I believe that season five will see the return to this baseline that I talked about. For all the types of love we see in the show, but the one I'm focused on is romantic love. (This is not me saying that romantic love is more important, it's just the one I'm thinking about the most right now)

Because not only has the show always been about love, it's also always been about Will. It started with him; it started with the group's love for him. If love is the lifeblood of the show, Will is the heart and soul of the show. And now there has been so much attention drawn to Will's romantic love for Mike, and his desire to be loved in that same way. He is so so sad because he believes that this form of love just isn't for him. His love being requited is a satisfying ending to his arc, but is also the perfect opportunity to bring the show back to its "baseline". Will's arc concluding with his love being requited is the perfect way to drive home the message they've been sending this entire time. The heart of the show deserves to receive the love it has inspired.

Will has loved Mike. Mike has loved Will. They don't need a big dramatic confession. They just need to be honest with themselves and honest with each other. True love.

This was just a ramble so I don't really have a conclusion and I don't know if anyone will understand what I'm trying to say. But this is an aspect of the show that I absolutely adore and I am so passionate about it and I just had to talk about it.

[sacredindigos]

s4 was the season of losing. it was the season where the characters lost big time despite all of their effort. it was the season where by the end of it, all of their development and character arcs seemed to be for nothing and what followed that was a sense of loss, defeat, and hopelessness.

so with that in mind, i wanna touch on 2 characters in particular and how them going against their arcs in s4 is what caused them to lose. and those characters are mike and will.

mike:

mike's arc throughout the show is about learning to accept himself as he is and to stop trying to be someone he isn't. his is all about gaining self acceptance and turning away from conformity. it's about learning to embrace his identity, in every sense of the word, instead of running from it or trying to hide it.

for mike's arc in s4, where the "losing and hopeless feeling" part comes in is his monologue to el.

mike's arc is about self acceptance and rejecting conformity. and by giving that monologue to el and telling her he loved her, he went against everything we saw from him in the 8 episodes before and even against everything we have seen from him since s1. he pushed away acceptance of his true feelings and identity and he conformed to what was expected of him and resigned himself to being in a relationship that makes it impossible for him to accept himself. he went against his arc that has been set up. which is why his monologue ultimately helped play a part in vecna winning and hawkins losing. mike didn't stay true to his arc and actually regressed so therefore the consequence for those actions was losing.

(something something "that's [forced conformity] what's killing the kids" something something mike's monologue is kinda the reason why max died to begin with something something)

will:

will's arc is about rejecting conformity and staying true to who he is no matter how many people try to get him to change. it's also about him accepting that he does deserve happiness and good things in his life and he won't always be the victim.

for will's arc in s4, the losing came in during the van scene and the monologue.

part of his arc is about learning to accept that he can have the things he wants and he can have happiness. but the van scene, where he selflessly gave up his own feelings and love under the guise that they are el's, was him rejecting the idea of happiness and him getting something that he wanted. it was him once again putting others before himself. and the same thing for the monologue. him being selfless and pushing mike to give that monologue was also him rejecting the idea of a happy ending for himself. it was him self sabotaging basically. he went against PART of his arc which ultimately helped play a part in them losing. so, again, he also didn't stay true to his arc and he regressed and the consequence of that was losing.

every other character also regressed their arc in some way or another which played a part in vecna winning and them losing. but i just wanted to touch on mike and will in particular because them rejecting their arcs specifically played a bigger part in losing than most of the other characters. and that is probably just because mike and will are MAIN main characters and they are gonna be important next season and have a lot of the focus on them. will especially.

and i believe the duffer bros wrote it this way so when they finally win once and for all next season and all of the character arcs are fulfilled and completed, it will be extra satisfying and rewarding for the audience. it will leave a bigger impact.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Forget Spiderman Percy,what about Spiderpunk Percy?Who choose his name because he's crustpunk but also because she's transfem bigender and Spiderman and Spiderwoman were already taken by Nico and Hazel and they're a Spider trio with Percy being 22,Nico 17 and Hazel 16 and having been the Spidersiblings of Earth 27 for 4 years by Atsv.Sally adopted Nico and Hazel in their toddler years but died under mysterious circumstances when Percy was 12 and he had to resort to self-parentification since Smelly Gabe was their 'guardian' and he took the brunt of the abuse on purpose so his little siblings could be safer.Hazel was bitten first so she doned the Spiderwoman mantle that'd been lost with Sally's death because she was the first 27 Spiderwoman but kept it a secret from her kids for protection,Nico gets bitten next and joins her as Spiderman and finally Percy is bitten too while dealing with radioactive sludge during eco-activism he was participating in

He's got a Gwen Stacy variant too and they're afrolatina like him and turn out to be an Anomaly by turning into Ghostspider a good deal into the Spidersiblings run and when they join Spider Society,obviously he instantly hits it off with Hobie and they clown on Miguel and have a lot of the same interests so they do them together often and Hobie's friends with Nico and Hazel too,being especially close to Hazel because he thinks she's the most adorable thing ever and loving to annoy Nico's lil black emo ass.Percy's also a dad in every way but having bio kids so he forces Hobie into healthy habits and coping mechanisms because realistically he's gotta have a lot of problems that i don't doubt like Gwen in Across will be explored in Beyond and speaking of Gwen,Percy's pretty much her new dad and mom who makes her do awful things like building up her self-worth again and spending time offduty actually having zero stakes fun and Hobie sees Percy as his eldest sister and she views the two of them in familial light back since they're a trio like she is with her legal siblings and Peter B's the only Peter Parker she dosen't think is a cornball and they hang out sometimes and have been on missions together but not nearly as many as her and Hobie who's her favorite Spiderperson tied with her homedimension ones

Percy's also got tons of street cred as Spiderpunk and as Percy Jackson-He killed his canon event cop Zeus Grace,he's defeated triple digit villains,he improved the view on Mutants by using his Spiderpersonhood to shine light on them and help out directly,he's got some narly scars from all his herowork,the Daily Bugle is highkey scared to shittalk him due to all the brutal things he's done and survived and as Percy,she works a fast food service job on the weekdays but spends her weekends attending protests and charity events and is very well known amongst other New York punks but especially in Manhattan specifically just as Percy in general and she's the go to for baby punks to learn what they need to and Nico's goth punk and Hazel's pastel goth punk because no younger siblings and pseudo-kids of hers were gonna be raised as normies or posers.She's a popular flirtation and thirst target but has never been interested in anyone except the 27 Gwen Stacy,a pastel punk like our Gwen and they grew up together

Just.......Spiderpunk Percy.Regular Percy's character relies on being a huge weirdo with no conformity capability and there's a lot of transfem subtext to her so it fits pretty well and it's why him and Hobie are almost the same!!You KNOW their basement shows go so fucking hard