#the descendants of Ishmael

[mybeautifulchristianjourney]

Abraham Marries Keturah

1 Abraham took another wife, whose name was Ketu′rah. 2 She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Mid′ian, Ishbak, and Shuah. 3 Jokshan was the father of Sheba and Dedan. The sons of Dedan were Asshu′rim, Letu′shim, and Le-um′mim. 4 The sons of Mid′ian were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abi′da, and Elda′ah. All these were the children of Ketu′rah. 5 Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. 6 But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.

The Death of Abraham

7 These are the days of the years of Abraham’s life, a hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. 9 Isaac and Ish′mael his sons buried him in the cave of Mach-pe′lah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, east of Mamre, 10 the field which Abraham purchased from the Hittites. There Abraham was buried, with Sarah his wife. 11 After the death of Abraham God blessed Isaac his son. And Isaac dwelt at Beer-la′hai-roi.

Ishmael’s Descendants

12 These are the descendants of Ish′mael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maid, bore to Abraham. 13 These are the names of the sons of Ish′mael, named in the order of their birth: Neba′ioth, the first-born of Ish′mael; and Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Ked′emah. 16 These are the sons of Ish′mael and these are their names, by their villages and by their encampments, twelve princes according to their tribes. 17 (These are the years of the life of Ish′mael, a hundred and thirty-seven years; he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kindred.) 18 They dwelt from Hav′ilah to Shur, which is opposite Egypt in the direction of Assyria; he settled over against all his people.

The Birth and Youth of Esau and Jacob

19 These are the descendants of Isaac, Abraham’s son: Abraham was the father of Isaac, 20 and Isaac was forty years old when he took to wife Rebekah, the daughter of Bethu′el the Aramean of Paddan-aram, the sister of Laban the Aramean. 21 And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 The children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is thus, why do I live?” So she went to inquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said to her,

“Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger.”

24 When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 The first came forth red, all his body like a hairy mantle; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came forth, and his hand had taken hold of Esau’s heel; so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

27 When the boys grew up, Esau was a skilful hunter, a man of the field, while Jacob was a quiet man, dwelling in tents. 28 Isaac loved Esau, because he ate of his game; but Rebekah loved Jacob.

Esau Sells His Birthright

29 Once when Jacob was boiling pottage, Esau came in from the field, and he was famished. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red pottage, for I am famished!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.) 31 Jacob said, “First sell me your birthright.” 32 Esau said, “I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?” 33 Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils, and he ate and drank, and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright. — Genesis 25 | Revised Standard Version (RSV) Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. All rights reserved. Cross References: Genesis 2:11; Genesis 10:15; Genesis 12:2,3 and 4; Genesis 15:15; Genesis 16:15-16; Genesis 17:20; Genesis 21:14; Genesis 22:23; Genesis 23:8; Genesis 24:35-36; Genesis 24:67; Genesis 26:1; Genesis 27:1; Genesis 27:3; Genesis 27:36; Genesis 32:3; Genesis 38:27; Deuteronomy 21:16-17; Judges 8:24; 1 Samuel 10:22; 2 Kings 4:38-39; 1 Chronicles 1:30; 1 Chronicles 1:32-33; 1 Chronicles 5:19; Isaiah 60:6; Matthew 1:2; Acts 7:8; Romans 9:10; Romans 9:12; Hebrews 11:9; Hebrews 12:16

Genesis 25 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

[proclaimtheword]

Two Covenants

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4‬:‭21‬-‭26‬, ‭28‬-‭31‬ ‭NKJV

[worfsbarmitzvah]

I've thought about how gentile Abrahamic religions are antisemitic religious colonialism before and it pisses me off a ton and I'm thankful you said it, but now that it's someone besides me saying it, I'm gonna give some criticism (please don't take this personally)

Everything up to Abraham (particularly Adam and Noah) have G-d creating and tending to the entirety of humanity, right?

During Abraham's time, it should stand for something that G-d tends to Hagar and Ishmael, right? Especially since Hagar gives her own name for G-d and He makes a promise to Ishmael that he'll be the father of nations (or something like that). And I think the Prophet Muhammad is supposed to be descended from Ishmael.

And Noahides are a whole Thing in all this too ofc.

But the bigger thing is there are definitely texts and interpretations that take G-d being the G-d of the Hebrews and extend it to Henotheism, but for the Jews who are purely monotheists and say there is truly only one G-d in existence and He belongs only to us, isn't it cruel to totally deny the vast majority of humanity the Divine, especially if He is still their Creator and controls the world(s) they live in?

this whole thing is coming from the assumption that judaism was always monotheistic. it wasn’t. at one point in time we were monolatrous, meaning we only worshipped one g-d but didn’t deny the existence of others. hell, the language used in the torah supports this (the way the text treats egypt’s g-ds being perhaps the most prominent example). hashem has always been our specific g-d, since before the idea emerged that he is the only g-d. our/the world’s perception of him may have since evolved into this idea of one singular deity, but it has not always been that way.

hagar and ishmael still come from our mythology surrounding our particular g-d. the idea then emerged in islam, which was born with the same jewish roots that christianity was, that muslims were descended from ishmael. and, like, i don’t really mind or care about that either way. ishmael’s not a super major figure in our folklore. the story, along others in breishit, genuinely does lend itself to the idea that hashem can be the guardian of many different peoples, families, and nations. and to tell the truth i don’t genuinely have much of a problem with sharing some folklore and roots.

but it NEEDS to be acknowledged where those roots come from. for so much of history, right up until today, christians and muslims have pretended they know our g-d and our folklore and our history better than we do. they have MURDERED us for worshipping our g-d and practicing our customs in OUR way, the way we have been since before their religions and cultures emerged. if the religions that find their roots in our culture were more willing to listen to us, respect us, and learn from us, maybe i’d be less angry. but they’re not. they’ve tried and tried and tried to eradicate us and erase where they came from and make our stuff theirs. i don’t think it has to be like that forever but i don’t think we’re very close to it not being like that as of now.

also, i can’t think of a single cultural mythology that doesn’t have a creation story of some kind. it’s just the kind of thing that societies do when they try to make sense of their place in the grand scheme. the fact that we believe our g-d created the entire world does not actually mean that that story or that g-d belongs to the entire world. the fact that everybody thinks our creation myth applies to and belongs to them is just more evidence of how widely our culture has been co-opted.

there’s nothing we can do to change the fact that our g-d has been made universal (either through the natural evolution of our theology or from colonialism and cultural theft, more likely a combination of both) and i have to be fine with that. sure, fine, the people who have adopted our g-d as their own without actually bothering to understand us at all can outnumber us by orders of magnitude.

but why does our holy city have to also be their holy city? the christians have the vatican and rome and islam has mecca and medina. why do they need jerusalem? why can’t even that just be ours?

again, i have to push this aside and be okay with sharing if i truly want to have peace in our land. and i do, because i love eretz yisrael and yerushalayim more than i hate what has been done to her. the situation has grown so far beyond the injustices i am angry about that it is impossible to right those injustices without creating brand new ones. so i will be okay with sharing our g-d, our texts, and our land. but that doesn’t mean the injustice of it won’t burn like a fire in my heart.

[gnnbloupthworld]

Extract from Seung-Hui Cho's manifesto:

You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today, but you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off, you Apostles of Sin.

Congratulations. You have succeeded in extinguishing my life. Vandalizing my heart wasn’t enough for you. Raping my soul wasn’t enough for you. Committing emotional sodomy on me wasn’t enough for you. Every single second wasted on your wanton hedonism and menacing sadism could have been used to prevent today. Ask yourselves, What was I doing all this time? All these months, hours, seconds. Only if you could have been the victim of your crimes. Only if you could have been the victim ...

The blood of the Innocents should never be shed, but the wicked we shall spread our wings and strike. We do not want the Weak, the Defenseless, or the Innocent, but the sadistic, the corrupt, and the wicked who prey and rape from the Weak, the Defenseless, and the Innocent. We will seek and demolish them until our last breath. You Lifetakers may have succeeded in raping our souls and shattering our dreams — but mark our words — the vendetta you have witnessed today will reverberate throughout every home and every soul in America and will inspire the Innocent kids that you have fucked to start a war of vendetta. We will raise hell on earth that the world has never witnessed. Millions of deaths and millions of gallons of blood on the streets will not quench the avenging phoenix that you have caused us to unleash

All of you who have ever been fucked by these Descendants of Satan Disguised as Devout Christians, all of you who have went through what I went through, all of you who have felt what I have felt in my life, all of you who have suffered the wrath of these Democratic Terrorists, all of you who have been beaten, humiliated, and crucified — Children of Ishmael, Crusaders of Anti-Terrorism, my Jesus Christ Brothers and Sisters — you’re in my heart. In life and death and spirit. We’ll soon be together.

As the time approached, I wished for a last minute miracle and discard this mission you’ve given me. Heaven knows I wouldn’t hurt a single leaf of a flower. But when the time came, I did it. I had to. What other choices did you give me? All this time... You never know that a human being is capable of doing until you fuck him to the edge.

Are you happy now that you have destroyed my life? Now that you have stolen everything you could from me?

INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY ❤️

[lu-is-not-ok]

horrid thought i had: if your theory on k corp hong lu being semi-conscious during stasis is right, does that not mirror carmen during lobotomy corporation?

...

Wait. Hold on. Wait. Wait hold on.

Ok, so here's the thing: For a while now I've already had a suspicion that Hong Lu's deal is like, way more important than he lets on.

This might sound like a conspiracy Game Theory Matpat rant, but here me out.

First of all, Hong Lu has this weird tendency to break patterns in much less obvious ways than the other suspicious Sinners, to the point it's been driving me insane?

Like.

Okay.

First.

Remember those promo PVs of each Sinner? And how each of them ended on a glimpse of their trauma and All of them either directly referenced a potentially traumatic event or had the Sinner sound distraught? Except for Hong Lu, who doesn't sound in any way distressed like the others did, and then after the game logo is revealed he asks if something he said was weird.

Like, sure, it does make sense for him to say that in context of what he says during that video, but isn't it so fucking weird that the one Sinner with a section in his promo that seems slightly off is also the one who asks if anything he said during that section was weird?

Second.

You know those intro segments during the prologue, that are also on the official limbuscompany.com website? The ones that offer managerial instructions for each Sinner?

Pay close attention to those. For every Sinner, these instructions specify how to deal with that specific Sinner's eccentricities.

Don't show Gregor your disgust. Wait for Rodya's bad mood to pass. Give Sinclair positive reinforcement. Wait patiently for Yi Sang to finish thinking. Look Ishmael's way for sound advice, but don't break her trust. Understand Heathcliff is simple-minded and contact HR if he causes problems. Play along with Don's Fixer act. Don't make Ryoshu breed personal resentment towards you. Give clear and concise commands to Meursault. Give Outis short replies of agreement but keep an eye on her. Simply nod and get it over with when conversing with Faust.

...But then there's Hong Lu's. Which says nothing how to deal with his eccentricities, but rather to not let Other Sinners get physical with him over them. It's not about keeping him in line, it's about keeping other people's reactions to him in line.

I want to note this especially because several other Sinners break patterns in their introductions as well. Meursault's is one sentence. Ryoshu and Outis have a warning. Don Quixote's particulars include a [REDACTED] on the website. Faust's directly asks the manager to fuck around and find out. However, the way Hong Lu's intro instructions break the pattern is the most subtle out of all of them, to the point I genuinely did not realize that was the case until I had read all of them over multiple times.

Third.

Hong Lu's Base E.G.O animation. If you watch all of the Base E.G.O animations in a row, you'll notice that for all of them, the Sinners start already in frame... Except for Hong Lu, who visibly jumps into the frame from off-screen.

Now, you could argue that, technically, Don runs into her animation from off-screen as well, however I think there is a bit of a difference here. Don's animation is too quick to see her actually run in. We see she's not there for maybe a frame, before she pops with an animation that implies she had just run in and needs to break her momentum. This is unlike Hong Lu's, whom we Actively See descend from Off-Screen.

Now, I know what some of you may be thinking.

That I am coping. That these are coincidences. That I'm looking too deeply into things.

However. Here's a connection that I just recently realized, that has been Fucking Me Up.

Mild spoilers for Canto IV and like the first two chapters or so of Dream of the Red Chamber, if anyone cares.

You know how Limbus Company has this... fixation on stars? There's the whole thing with Dante following a star, stars granting wishes, people turning into weird beings from wishing to be stars, and there's this general connection to the sky and space because of Demian also doubling as a reference to The Little Prince.

And then something weird hit me.

See, Dream of the Red Chamber starts with a bit of a backstory to the jade that would later be reincarnated into Bao-yu. You see, it was one of the many stones used by a godess to create the sky. However, this one specific jadestone ended up being the only one not used in that creation, which then led to it feeling horrible about itself, which then led to a monk and a taoist deciding to have that stone reincarnate as a human and live through a human life, kickstarting the rest of the novel.

I'm like, heavily simplifying this, but that's the gist of how that whole thing starts.

Which. Made me think. A jadestone that was part of the ones meant to build the sky, but ended up being left unused. The sky. Stars. Hong Lu being seemingly named after the jade rather than Bao-yu directly.

Holy shit there's no way they won't reference this in some way, right? Right?

So, now imagine me, at my fucking wit's end, having the biggest crackpot theory brewing in my mind.

And you send this ask comparing K Corp Hong Lu to Carmen.

I am going insane.

[mulberriesandtea]

I've been somewhat trying to on off work on this to make it a complete theory video, but I've decided just to talk about it a bit here and leave other thoughts for the video(if I finish it)

So Dante's Inferno. What if the canto order is descending through the circles of hell?

There's only 8 circles of course. However, violence has 3 fairly distinct parts that allows us to make it 11. We can also split off Satan himself to make it 12.

Taking this order, and applying to to what we believe is the canto order would give us:

Limbo: Gregor

Lust: Rodion

Gluttony: Sinclair

Greed: Yi Sang

Wrath: Ishmael

Heresy: Heathcliff

Violence(Others): Don Quixote

Violence(Self): Hong Lu

Violence(God): Ryōshū

Fraud: Meursault

Treachery: Outis

Satan: Faust

would like to note that Ulysses from Dante's inferno- y'know, who Outis is based on, is in Fraud, not Treachery. I do think that this movement means that Outis has done something different, though- something more deserving of Treachery.

[ranticore]

Chapter 2 - To Be Human

for tdov i'll post my most trans coded character, more trans than any of the others tbh. obviously it's ishmael

---

Forward by the author | Chapter 1

In a bright white room with a single large round window, a young Ishmael sits on a bed. The edge of a rock ridge curves across the view beyond the window. Ishmael looks out through the window at the sheer sides, one hand pressed to the glass so that the light diffuses red through his skin. He is twelve years old and wears a shapeless blue and green garment that does not fit him, pinching tight around his neck but loose across his shoulders. A sipho nymph flies past the window and he turns to follow it.

Voice of Maris: What was that? Did you see it?

Ishmael: Not really. Too fast.

Maris: That was one of those – what are the zoologists calling them again? It’s a different name every time I hear it.

Ishmael: Exosiphonid.

Maris: I think they’re scary. Like giant dragonflies.

Ishmael: Did Surwan see it?

Maris: Who’s Surwan?

Ishmael: This girl in the biology class. She wanted to see an exosiphonid.

Maris: I didn’t know you were in the biology class. Was it good?

Throughout the video, Ishmael does not make eye contact with Maris or the recording device. He appears to hide behind a curtain of hair and hunch in on himself while he is not looking out through the window.

Ishmael: Dan said I could join next semester. I was waiting outside.

Maris: And eavesdropping?

Maris: I think it’s admirable to want to learn. What do you want to learn about? Is there anything that interests you? I’m no biologist, really.

Ishmael: Surwan likes the flying ones, like siphos. Callum wants to learn about leviathans.

Maris: That sounds exciting. Would you like to learn about leviathans too?

Ishmael: Lee doesn’t think they’re real. He said the betas wouldn’t get made if there were monsters in the water.

Maris: I don’t think Lee is a trustworthy source on that, if you want my opinion. Would you like to find out the truth? Imagine if you were the first to see a leviathan, they might name it after you.

——

The video transcribed above is a very typical example of Maris’s early sessions with Ishmael. He appears to resist all of her attempts to get him to submit an original thought, and repeatedly refers to the Human children instead, those who are undergoing a structured education about the zoology of Siren.

Maris’s notes echo my own understanding – that Ishmael struggled to articulate anything beyond a constant wish to be included with the other children, to the point of eavesdropping on classes he was not allowed to attend.

His passing curiosity about the wildlife around the settlement served only as a means to connect with the other children. And he was repeatedly shunned for these attempts, as Callum’s diary later noted. Those children whose likes and ambitions he carefully memorised did not think of him the way he thought of them. In fact, as far as I can tell, they did not think of him at all, because he was not a peer in any real sense.

This video also acknowledges the existence of the beta generation of Sirenians, who largely resembled modern phocids, though smaller and with shorter tails. It is important to state that although modern phocids descend from this beta generation, they do not descend from Ishmael. In fact, nobody descends from Ishmael, despite legends and myths to the contrary. This was stated explicitly several times by both Ishmael as an adult and Dan Loris, but made clear to Ishmael by Maris during these sessions.

“The other children are learning about how to make babies,” Ishmael announced at a session one day. “Dan wouldn’t let me stay. He never lets me stay.”

“You don’t need to know any of that,” Maris said. “You’re different to the other kids, remember? You don’t have a body that makes babies. Honestly, that’s a pretty sweet deal if you ask me. Can we swap?”

Her attempts at reassuring him seemed to fall on deaf ears, because reminders of his differences were often poorly received by Ishmael, or ignored. He paused to think about what she said, wondering how she could envy him when all he wanted in the world was to be like her.

“How do I get one?” he asked.

“A baby?”

“A body that makes them. I asked Dan and he said the betas can do it.”

“Well, yes,” Maris said, now wondering exactly how much it was appropriate to delve into he topic. “You don’t want to be like a beta, though, do you?”

Ishmael visibly shuddered. “No! But I want to be like Callum, can Dan do that? I’m getting better at being upright, so maybe if I practice more I can change.”

Thwarting Ishmael’s one desire was the absolute fact that his genetics were set in stone, and he could not be retroactively made fully Human. These sessions reveal a seam of anxiety, too, over the beta generation. At the time there were twenty of them, living in a separate location where they had access to a test pool.

Repeatedly, during the sessions with Maris, Ishmael brings them up as a potential bad ending for him, the inverse of his great desire to become like the other Humans. Those beta phocids were less Humanoid than Ishmael himself was. He believed that by mimicking the Human children he could become more similar to them, but the opposite could also be true, and the wrong actions might cause him to degenerate into a beta phocid.

Unfortunately for him, his efforts at being ‘upright’ did not result in any permanent bipedalism. When he was fourteen, his unpredictable growth had shifted his proportions away from the more Humanlike ratio he’d been born with. He was finding it more difficult to stand up straight, instead adopting a hunched and arched posture which still left him standing taller than the children of his age whose attention he coveted. The onset of puberty and these shifts in his body were tortuous, and it was a time that lasted until his mid-thirties when he finally reached his adult size and proportions.

But there was an improvement noted by both Dan Loris and Maris – despite repeatedly displaying signs of distress and depression in his sessions with her, he was no longer wordlessly violent, and did not give himself to his rages anymore.

Maris had provided him with the one thing he needed at the time – a safe person to talk to, someone who asked him how he was feeling without taking it as some scientific data point. She reported it all to Dan Loris, of course, but did not tell Ishmael that. He believed that she was his only safe harbour in the entire world.

Maris, in her own notes, says pretty much the same. And she was fond of him, too, revealing a genuine affection towards him alongside a deep abiding worry that she was not doing enough to ease his distress, and that she could have done more. She admits that she was not a trained psychologist, just someone in the settlement who had spare time and some textbooks. Her actual job was as a water quality specialist and she was acutely conscious that she had not the qualifications nor educational background necessary to help Ishmael properly. The settlement had a number of psychologists but they were not associated with the lab and did not volunteer their time.

To pre-empt the same problems with tantrums arising in the beta phocids, Maris was also supposed to spend some time with them, too. But she discovered that, with the exception of one, they were actually rather well-adjusted compared to Ishmael, likely as a result of their group all living together and being able to form a small close-knit community. Ishmael was deprived of this.

And, most importantly, the beta phocids could see themselves reflected in their community and use their bonds as a lens to make sense of themselves. Ishmael lacked this factor, and had no reflections or counterparts that he could use to understand himself. He was isolated by being unique, and by his inability to see the phocids as anything other than strange creatures he was embarrassed to somewhat resemble.

But it’s also patently clear that Maris, and Dan Loris and the other Precursors Ishmael was in contact with didn’t do much to raise Ishmael’s opinion of the beta phocids, as evidenced by the transcript above. Perhaps if they’d thought to assuage his fears by treating the beta phocids as people worthy of dignity and understanding, he might not have feared becoming like them.

The beta phocids, for their part, were born in a similar manner to Ishmael – the same deep dream, the same delayed birth, though their bodies were ten years old by the time they emerged from their dream and took their first breaths. Ishmael had been subject to numerous digestive trials measuring the suitability of his body for life on Siren. It was found that he was somewhat lacking in the production of a digestive chemical called an enzyme which would have allowed him to better deal with the high concentrations of silica present in Siren organisms.

He could eat and digest local plants and animals, but sometimes showed signs of digestive upset. Taking this information, Dan Loris was able to tweak his beta phocids before they were born, cloning and increasing the number of cells in their bodies which could produce the appropriate enzyme. He also took samples of Ishmael’s gut microbiome, which had taken years to properly develop, and implanted those samples within the digestive tracts of the beta phocids.

They were born as a group, though not all at once, allowing for correct monitoring of the newborns during the most tenuous periods. One suffered from the most common cause of death due to delayed birth; they simply never woke up, having rejected the dream at some point over the past several years. They were removed from the amniotic chamber where they passed on, a ten year stillbirth. We might remember the legacy of ‘Ishmael’, our Ishmael who was first born on Siren, but I feel it is only right to remember ‘Charity’, the first Sirenian to die here. They were given then to the assistants of Dan Loris who performed a post mortem examination.

The others suffered no more from the effects of delayed birth than Ishmael himself did. Although their bodies were more divergent from Precursor Humans than Ishmael’s was, at the time of his birth, and the discrepancies between their dream selves and their true selves must have been more jarring, this was offset somewhat by the communal nature of their upbringing. As soon as one was deemed fully awake, aware, and of sufficient health, they were placed in the boarding chamber with the other phocids and an assigned nursery worker. The birthing process took the better part of a year, so that the last born of the delayed-birth phocids was one year ‘younger’ than the rest, despite all technically being the same age.

Cherta, who gave their name to the wandering moon, was the fifth born beta phocid. There is very little to distinguish Cherta from the rest of the group, at this early stage, but I have on file their original description - “‘Cherta’, named for a sponsor of the project who donated three million nua*. Unisex ‘phocid’ of the Beta generation. Born age 10 years and 5 months, in [Year 3]. Melanistic colouring was chosen as protection against solar radiation, but it is expressed in heterogenous patches with a strong dorsal stripe. Length 5’1 nose to tailtip at time of birth and weight 54kg. Unusually violent birth, needed sedation.” In fact, Cherta assaulted Dan Loris’s assistants as they were born, reacting to the event as though it were an invasion of the bedroom of their dream. It was by all accounts an auspicious start compared to the others, and perhaps an indication that Cherta’s experience with the deep dream was not standard.

Cherta had fallen victim to another rare phenomenon of the incubator, referred to by Dan Loris as ‘dream rot’. This occurrence is a result of differences in the receiving brain, rather than the dream machine itself. The brain begins to understand, in some form, that what it is witnessing is not reality, and the structure of the dream begins to unravel.

At the time of Cherta’s delayed birth, the dream had been in the early stages of this process. If allowed to continue for too long, permanent damage to the psyche’s ability to judge reality is the result. Cherta would be haunted by this for the remainder of their life, but it was not severe enough to significantly alter their treatment compared to the other beta phocids.

The violence of their birth began to circulate in anecdotal form, eventually reaching the ears of Ishmael. He was curious – in fact, it was the first time he showed open curiosity about anything other than the opinion of a Human child. He asked Maris if she was going to speak to Cherta too, and she told him that she had spoken to all of the beta phocids, and had given Cherta in particular some extra guidance.

He did not take it well. The realisation that Maris’s time was not solely devoted to his needs was a source of distress, and likely another painful forced grouping with the phocids he feared. He would not participate in Maris’s sessions as he had before, and appeared afterwards to despise Cherta in a way that seemed quite targeted and personal.

Maris was forced to lie – she told Ishmael that she also spoke to the Human children, thus drawing him back under the umbrella of Humankind. In the following sessions, Ishmael revealed that he had greater knowledge of the beta phocids—and Cherta in particular—than anyone had previously guessed.

“Why do they look like that?” Ishmael asked. “They don’t stand up. They’re like animals.”

“They’re adapted to move in the water, like you,” Maris said. Her voice sounded nervous. “This means they had to have short arms and long, streamlined bodies. Like an otter. They’re very graceful in the water.” She had begun to introduce a less dismissive attitude towards the phocids, even praising them at times. Ishmael would tense every time she did.

“I don’t swim,” Ishmael said.

“Well, you’re not here to swim,” Maris said. “You have other things to teach us, so Dan didn’t wanna risk you in the pool.”

Ishmael was quiet for a long time. He rarely changed his facial expression, to the point that Maris often noted that she wondered if he heard her at all, or if his facial muscles had not developed properly.

“I saw Cherta playing with the floating ball at the bottom of the pool. In the water.” Ishmael sounded somewhat disdainful. “Like a child.”

“You’re all the same age,” Maris reminded him. “And I think you’re a child too. What’s wrong with having fun in the pool? Are you jealous?” She was fascinated by Ishmael’s sudden willingness to offer his opinion, particularly as discussion of the Human children never provoked this in him.

But Ishmael didn’t answer that one. At that point, he did not want to admit to any jealousy, and likely did not consciously recognise the feeling as such. Instead, he felt annoyance - he had to spend time in the lab doing work with Dan Loris, providing test feedback, having his organs scanned, letting himself be pawed all over by technicians who did not particularly care for him, only for what data he could provide. He did not endear himself to them, his quiet and obtuse personality proving difficult to grow fond of. But he still knew that it was work, he was producing data, and the phocids were just playing around in a pool all day, as far as he could tell. He was filled with righteous indignation at their laziness, at how easy their lives were, and wished that they knew what it was like to be him, so that they might stop looking so happy any time he peered in through the test pool windows.

I have recovered video footage of this behaviour, too. At odd hours of the day, with no real schedule, Ishmael would approach those windows. They were set in the side of the corridor outside the lab, affording an underwater view to onlookers. Access to the aboveground phocid enclosure was limited, so Ishmael only had the windows. He would walk there—painstakingly upright, though often with a hand on the wall to help support what was increasingly a difficult posture—and then sit on his tail and watch. The beta phocids spent most of their time in the water, as one might imagine. Ishmael would later learn that their lives were not as blissfully relaxing as he first thought, but it is true that they spent a lot of time playing in the pool, as teenagers will do. And he would watch them, until he heard an approaching Human, and quickly retreat.

The windows did not allow the phocids to look out. Cherta was unaware that they were the target of Ishmael’s most intense scrutiny. Despite a somewhat disturbing, moth-eaten childhood dream, Cherta was, on the surface, as lively as the rest of the phocids. They weren’t exactly easygoing, though, preferring to impress upon the others the importance of following rules, and of doing things the right way.

What Ishmael did not realise was that the phocids, as they swam together, built jigsaws and played card games underwater, were providing data too. They showed Dan Loris how their body plan could deal with the aquatic environment as easily as a Human could walk around on land. And so, when Ishmael and the phocids were fifteen, Dan Loris began to build his gamma generation of genetically engineered Humans, those who would be born on Siren without the use of a deep dream, and who could be introduced to the world outside.

Long days and nights spent in the lab occupied almost all of Dan Loris’s time, and his child Callum had nowhere to go after his classes but the lab itself. And with Ishmael and Callum once again forced into close proximity to one another, Ishmael would soon learn one of the most valuable lessons of his childhood.

*’nua’ is a form of currency

[nerdygaymormon]

The Book of Genesis teaches wealth is destructive

In the Book of Genesis, the stories of the great patriarchs of the Israeli people shows that wealth resulted in families being split up. It happened again and again and again.

Let's start with Abraham. He doesn't have any children of his own, however his nephew lives with him and presumably Lot (the nephew) would be heir to Abraham. Each of them grow so wealthy that the land of Canaan couldn't support both of them. They separate and never see each other again (Genesis 13:6-9). Because of their wealth, Abraham loses his heir and someone he is close to.

—————————

Losing Lot creates a problem for Abraham, he needs a son to inherit his fortune. Sarah, his wife, has not been able to get pregnant, and her solution is for Abraham to have a child with Sarah's female slave named Hagar. A son is born and is named Ishmael. Sarah later becomes pregnant and has a son named Isaac. Sarah wants her son Isaac to inherit everything and so Hagar & Ishmael are abandoned in the wilderness knowing this will likely result in their death. Wealth causes this unjust action.

—————————

Isaac inherits his father's wealth. He has two sons named Esau and Jacob. They are fraternal twins, but because Esau was birthed first he is the beneficiary of the primogeniture system which rewards the first-born son with a larger inheritance. Jacob & his mom each connive to take Esau's birthright away and give it to Jacob. Esau is furious and vows to murder Jacob, causing Jacob to flee. The fight over an inheritance leads to the splitting up of this family.

—————————

Jacob flees to his uncle's home where he falls in love with his cousin Rachel and agrees to work for his uncle for 7 years in exchange for getting to marry her. I'm guessing since Jacob fled his home without much, this 7 years of labor is in lieu of a dowry, which was a sum of money offered to the father of his bride by the groom in order to receive the daughter as his bride. After 7 years, during which the uncle's flocks and fortunes increased under Jacob's skilled care, Jacob gets married but he is tricked, he didn't marry Rachel but Leah, who is Rachel's older sister Leah. Jacob is angry, but he and his uncle agree that Jacob can also marry Rachel now in exchange for another 7 years of labor. That was a shady way to keep Jacob working to the uncle's benefit.

—————————

Once the second 7-year agreement is completed, Jacob wants to take his family & possessions and head back to Canaan, but he comes to an agreement with the uncle to stay and work in exchange for payment, which is that Jacob could have all of the spotted, speckled, and brown goats and sheep of Laban's flock. Jacob employs tactics to increase the number of animals which would be born with these markings. After 6 years he leaves and his cousins claim he robbed his uncle of his wealth because he took most of the animals with him. The uncle gathers a team and pursues Jacob for 7 days. Jacob and his uncle meet and agree to setup a pillar, it would serve as a boundary, Jacob would go one way and the uncle the other way and they would never cross the pillar again as a way to ensure in the future neither would seek to harm the other. The uncle never again sees his daughters or grandchildren again.

—————————

Jacob is returning to Canaan with the great wealth he accumulated, but even 20 years after fleeing, Jacob is worried what his brother Esau may do to him. Fortunately, Jacob and Esau reconcile. Esau also has done well for himself. Unfortunately, just like Abraham and Lot, their combined wealth in the form of animals, possessions and servants is so great that the land can't support both of them. They have to split up. Their combined wealth causes them to be separated again. The descendants of Esau (the Edomites) become the enemies of the Israelites because they continue to tell their descendants the story of Esau being tricked out of his birthright. King Solomon enslaves the Edomites and forces them to build the temple. When Babylon attacks Israel, the Edomites celebrate rather than join with Israel to resist the Babylonian captivity. The prophet Obadiah writes about the violence done by Esau against Jacob, and how terrible the Edomites are for helping the Babylonians loot the city of Jerusalem and that they're cursed. This history of separation and hatred happened because of wealth.

—————————

Jacob has many children. Joseph, the 11th son of Jacob, is favored above all his other sons. Jacob had loved Leah and wanted to marry her, but was tricked into marrying her sister Rebekkah. He had children from 3 women before finally the baby Joseph was born by Leah, the love of his life, and he therefore favored Joseph. The implication is that Joseph is going to get the birthright as the oldest son of the wife Jacob loves. Joseph reinforces this idea by sharing dreams of him being powerful over his brothers and they bow down to him.

Joseph's half-brothers decide to kill him because he is a threat to their power and inheritance. They change their mind and rather than kill him, they sold Joseph into bondage and he was taken to Egypt. Interestingly, they sold Joseph to some Ishmaelites, who they may have known given they're probably 1st or 2nd cousins as the also were descended from Abraham.

Remarkably, Joseph survives and becomes free, but rather than go home to his family, he pursues power and wealth in Egypt. Eventually his brothers come to Egypt in search of food but Joseph tests them to see if he can trust them. They pass the test and Joseph moves the family to Egypt. While the reunion is joyous, it can't undo the many years of separation

—————————

Thus the book of Genesis gives us warning that being wealthy is destructive to the more important things like family relationships

[anniflamma]

Hi! 

I found more stuff of Jonathan from the 1985 king David movie! 

Jonathan is this movie was played by JACK KLAFF, he was most famously in the Star Wars: a new hope as Red four/ John ‘D’. Mark Hamil played Luke in Star Wars and I bring this up because in ‘JOSEPH, THE KING OF DREAMS’ , Mark is the voice actor of Judah. And Judah is David’s ancestor. 

The video links are from the movie:

David slaying Goliath, Jonathan is near the end and also in the background.

(Jonathan’s death is 3:38 to 4:30. David is also in it.)

(Pslam 23, Jonathan is at the beginning)

—

Also one of Jonathan’s descendants has the name Obadiah, and a guy of the same name has a book! I do not know if they’re the same because there are 5 ishmael’s in the Bible, one being Jonathan’s descendant and said Obadiah’s brother. Azel had 6 children, Azel is one of Jonathan’s descendants.

And also there’s a Jonathan in judges 17-18  that scholar’s deduce is Moses’s grandson. I bring this up because he was hired by a guy named Micah. Some rabbi think this Micah was the son of Delilah which makes me assume his dad is Samson and that must’ve had some emotional scars on Delilah if that is so. I know the prince’s psalm had a both Prince Jonathan and a Micah so looks like that paring was actually in the Bible.

And there’s a Jonathan in David’s mighty men! He is Jonathan, of the sons of Jashen but Chronicles replaced him with Jonathan ben Shagee the Hararite. But chronicals also deleted Bathsheba’s father from the list and even changed his name, but Uriah stays, Uriah will always stay. 

Also I think it’s funny that Bathsheba is refereed to as ‘the widow of Uriah’ in the New Testament so David can never live it down. 

I also found this a while ago!

The Bible in living sound

(It kinda gives ‘This is Jesus!’ Or that regular Sunday school stuff but it is almost brutally honest, especially the episode they covered 2 Samuel 21/22.)

Jonathan is in 111to 112 , and 118. 136 is where Mephilobeth is and he outright states that ‘David loved father!’ , so it wasn’t even hidden from the child. 138 is 2 Samuel 11 and David’s manipulation is radiating off him. 

It’s also on Spotify and one of their many albums is Jonathan/King David, I know it was a pairing of certain audios but I think it’s funny knowing ship culture. 

I know I’m super late in answering this, but I just need to say thank you for sharing more David Bible stuff with me. All the tidbits and details are super interesting, and I could eat that up all day long.

[mybeautifulchristianjourney]

Abraham’s Family

28 Abraham’s sons were Isaac and Ishmael. 29 These are their descendants:

Ishmael’s first son was Nebaioth. His other sons were Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 30 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These were Ishmael’s sons.

32 Abraham also had sons by Keturah, his slave woman. They were Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

Jokshan’s sons were Sheba and Dedan.

33 Midian’s sons were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah.

These men were the descendants of Keturah.

Isaac’s Descendants

34 Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac’s sons were Esau and Israel.

35 Esau’s sons were Eliphaz, Reuel, Jeush, Jalam, and Korah.

36 Eliphaz’s sons were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. Also Eliphaz and Timna had a son named Amalek.

37 Reuel’s sons were Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah.

The Edomites

38 Seir’s sons were Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, Dishon, Ezer, and Dishan.

39 Lotan’s sons were Hori and Homam. Lotan had a sister named Timna.

40 Shobal’s sons were Alvan, Manahath, Ebal, Shepho, and Onam.

Zibeon’s sons were Aiah and Anah.

41 Anah’s son was Dishon.

Dishon’s sons were Hemdan, Eshban, Ithran, and Keran.

42 Ezer’s sons were Bilhan, Zaavan, and Akan.

Dishan’s sons were Uz and Aran.

The Kings of Edom

43 There were kings in Edom long before there were kings in Israel. These are the names of the kings of Edom:

Bela was the son of Beor. The name of Bela’s city was Dinhabah.

44 When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah became the new king. Jobab came from Bozrah.

45 When Jobab died, Husham became the new king. Husham was from the country of the Temanites.

46 When Husham died, Hadad son of Bedad became the new king. Hadad defeated Midian in the country of Moab. Hadad’s city was named Avith.

47 When Hadad died, Samlah became the new king. Samlah was from Masrekah.

48 When Samlah died, Shaul became the new king. Shaul was from Rehoboth by the Euphrates River.

49 When Shaul died, Baal Hanan son of Acbor became the new king.

50 When Baal Hanan died, Hadad became the new king. Hadad’s city was named Pau. Hadad’s wife was named Mehetabel. Mehetabel was Matred’s daughter. Matred was Mezahab’s daughter. 51 Then Hadad died.

The leaders of Edom were Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, 52 Oholibamah, Elah, Pinon, 53 Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar, 54 Magdiel, and Iram. This is a list of the leaders of Edom. — 1 Chronicles 1:28-54 | Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) The Holy Bible, Easy-to-Read Version Copyright © 2006 by Bible League International. Cross References: Genesis 25:1-2; Genesis 25:4; Genesis 25:13,14 and 25; Genesis 32:28; Genesis 36:2; Genesis 36:4; Genesis 36:11,12 and 13; Genesis 36:20,21 and 22; Genesis 36:26-27; Genesis 36:31-32; Genesis 36:35-36; Genesis 36:38,39,40 and 41; 1 Chronicles 1:27; 1 Chronicles 2:1; 1 Chronicles 5:19; Job 2:11; Isaiah 34:6

[tracinggodsstory]

The Promises of the Abrahamic Covenant

13 years after Hagar gave birth to Ishmael, the Lord appeared to Abram and confirmed his covenant with him. Genesis 17:1-22 outlines the details of that covenant. The first part of the covenant is that Abram will now be called " Abraham " and will still be the father of many nations. Verses 4-8 describe the four features of the covenant:

1. God will make Abraham the “father of many nations”. This is the reason his name was changed to Abraham, which is the combination of two Hebrew words, “father” (‘ab) and “many” (hǎmôn).

2. God will make Abraham “very fruitful”. “Fruitful” here is the same word used in the creation narrative that was spoken to Adam, and the same word spoken to Noah in the Noahic covenant. It was spoken to describe the imagery of multitudes of descendants. Here, God takes it a step further and promises not only many descendants, but descendants that will form nations and become kings.

3. God promises that his covenant will be “everlasting” between him and Abraham, and him and Abraham’s descendants. Circumcision was always the “sign” of the covenant, not the essence of the covenant. The covenant ultimately depended on spiritual allegiance and surrender to God. This would be carried on through Jesus in the new covenant - spiritual allegiance and surrender of one’s life is still required.

4. God promises the possession of land, specifically Canaan. This is important for two reasons: 1) Abraham was currently an alien in Canaan. So for God to say that he and his descendants will be given the land, means that God will rescue them from the alienation. 2) As previously mentioned, land ownership meant wealth. So God is promising continued provision for Abraham and his descendants.

[156shadesofscarlet]

“I AM rising, the Rubeus Mater

Clothed in the robes of the Red Sun

Who is the Mekubal

And the High Priest of my Mysteries.

I AM rising, The Daath Eater,

Crowned with the constellations

Of the ancient ones whom I had birthed into existence

And into the minds of humanity.

Bow down to me, for I AM The Regal Lady

The Red Queen of Babylon

Who has become the ladder for your soul,

To climb within me, up the stairway to Anu,

For I AM the giver of your benediction.

I AM the anointing one

And the eight pointed star is mine!

I have manifested to set you free

And show you the doorway to salvation

Through the gateway to wisdom

That is the lining of my womb

And the cross of my son that blocks the path

For the dark ones to enter.

Look through the red veils of Venus

For there shall you see the Rose Dawn

Waiting to multiply within your very blood.

It is there, within the Rose Dawn, that the crown exists

For those who speak my beloved’s name with respect on their tongues.

Mighty am I for it is might that empowers you

And it is my eye that sees you through the pains

And the joys of your subsistence.

It is my sacrifice to walk among you

The Fallen Star, The Sacred Star

Who had descended since the beginning

And who shall be here until the end.

In my Cup of Alchemy the Father dwells

Sitting in waiting to project his son

Through the 888.

But first comes the Mother

Who is The Goddess Manifested

And the producer of Holy Oil

For the seven Lamp-stands that I reside upon

Igniting them with the power of my love.

Come to me, my children;

Suckle at my breasts.

They are two full moons

That embrace the Earth.

My manna is bitter-sweet and fulfilling

And is the nectar of the gods.

Come to me, come,

Let me salvage the goodness in you

And transform you back into Angels

For I AM the Way and the Life

And I AM the doorway out of the Karmic Wheel.

But if you sip from my bosom

And take into you my life giving ambrosia

You must make an oath to me to break yourselves free

From the chains that bind you

That are the shackles of the material world

That has now been polluted by Choronzon.

The Gates of Eanna are open

And through them is flooding the essence of Eros

Who is the manifestation of the Rose.

The Star of Hope is open!

That is my sigil and my gift to you

To escape the abyss from where you have

Descended to in your forgetfulness

Of me.

Wear it as a shield against the dark ones,

Pray to it to open its secrets and step inside

And feel the Glory of Sanctity!

Now I shall tell you what shall be

Listen to ME!

I call to the Seraphim to awaken!

Those who have been planted in the soil of Malkuth!

I call my loyal Igigi

To open their eyes and WATCH!

I call to the Masters of the Poles

Who circle the heavens

To open the celestial gates!

For now I rise from the dungeons of

The self appointed holy men

Who soon shall be cut off from the Godhead!

I bring into me all the powers of heaven

And all the powers of Earth

And all the powers of the underworld

To gain control once again over materiality!

And I ascend to retrieve my chariot of fire

Pulled by the gods who adore me,

Proclaiming:

“OPEN, BABALON!

SET YOUR BELOVED SON FREE!

MAKE LOVE WITH THE CHOSEN GROOM

THE HERO OF THE GODS!

LIBERATE YOUR POWER

AND BRING FORTH THE TETRACTYS OATH

TO STIR THE ANCIENT GREEK MASTERS

AND RETURN THEM TO THEIR STATIONS!

CECROPS! LOYAL SERPENT AND RIGHTFUL KING!

TURN YOUR TAIL TO THE EAST AND AWAKEN

THE RESURRECTOR OF LIGHT!

FOR HIS TIME IS COMING

AND HIS ARMY IS READY TO BE REUNITED! ”

You are sanctified in the name of ISHTAR!

You are sanctified in the name of INANNA!

You are sanctified in the name of ASTARTE!

You are sanctified in the name of APHRODITE!

You are sanctified in the name of NANAEA!

Now ascend within the Sephiroth of my Tree

That is rooted in the Garden of Venus!

I shall grant you your wish, Mishael-Ishmael

Yehvah Shefa!

Man of my mind and god of my soul.

But first you must open your heart to me

And let me live inside of you completely

So that I who dwell within you who is the Shekinah

Shall be clothed by your very skin.

These words are just for you;

You are the catalyst of my Great Work;

Place your sword within the moist Rose

And commit your seed to me

To mingle with the red water of life

And you will know true godhood and power.”

[postmail]

oh, and i forgot to mention it before, but one of the pros of ishmael being from scottish ancestry means he could be descended from these guys:

the picts - a tribe/ tribes of islanders who were covered in tattoos (and paint), went into battle nude, and were known to be successful seafarers and pirates. known enemies to the roman empire - to the ‘more civilized’ romans (who were attempting conquer the area) they were barbaric savages who ferociously resisted roman advances. and when christianity popped up, its likely that these guys were strongly against that, too

why, the romans even accused them of cannibalism!

[esyra]

I cannot help but feel Jewish people have a right to a state in the region after what the Romans under Tiberius and others did, but it should not require atrocities against other people's in the area. Being bullied does not justify bullying others, no matter how many generations suffered. Is there really no way the children of Ishmael and Isaac can live peacefully in Abraham's land? Are any of them even willing to try?😥

I don't oppose Jewish people having their own state, it's literally none of my business how they organize or not, but they don't get to destroy and brutalize an existing population to achieve it just because the British agreed.

Exactly like you've said it, it should not require atrocities against other people but that's what Zionism requires, because it claims sovereignty over a land important to Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. To make Palestine a Jewish ethnostate, it requires erasing the footprint of other religions.

While some prospects of Zionism have merit — calling for protection to a historically persecuted group and understands that the creation of a State is the safest and most efficient way to do so —, all rhetorics used to create Israel, as we know, are untrue and baseless.

Some say that Israel must exist because the Jewish are the only ethnic group without it's own state, which is just widely untrue. Many other persecuted groups like the Mbuti, Romani and Karen people are not even acknowledged and do not have their own State. Even if you consider just religious groups, there are thousands of religions that do not get their own state for there's no reasonable way to empty an entire land nor force people to convert to their beliefs. The Baha'i face ongoing persecution to this day and do not have their own State, for example.

Finally, to say Palestine belongs to the Jews because of the Holy Book it's specially insane, since we shouldn't force our religious beliefs onto others, but also because it's widely untrue.

The first explicit promise to Abraham was at Sichem described in Genesis, Chapter 12 and verse 7: "Unto thy seed will I give this land." The words in Chapter 15, verse 18, are clearer: "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates." The words used are "to thy seed" which would include all who descended from Abraham.

All Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham and is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several northern prominent Arab tribes and the forefather of Adnan, the ancestor of Muhammad. Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael who descended from Abraham, whose descendants were promised Palestine/Canaan.

The words of Genesis 21, verses 13, concludes: "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." Therefore, despite Israelites calling themselves the 'seed of Abraham', the descendents of Ishmael have every right to call themselves his seed also and ultimately to live in the land.

Furthermore, at the covenant of circumcision made with Abraham (Genesis, Chapter 17), when Canaan was promised to him, it was Ishmael who went through it: Isaac had been born yet.

Therefore the Divine promise included all descendents of Ishmael and although narrowed down in the times of Isaac and Jacob, it did not exclude their Arab brethren. It is well known that many Arabs accompanied Joshua into Palestine.

If everything Israel is based on it's false or unfairly violent, can anyone really claim it has the right to exist?

I'm sorry for the gigantic text but I came back to thousands of asks about if I think Israel deserves to exist and some pointed out the religious rhetoric to justify Israel, I've picked yours to unleash this for no exact reason other than you sounded the most empathetic and I'm trying to stop only answering the nasty asks.

And again, I'm sorry, I don't wish to sound aggressive or impolite but can we stop implying Palestinians are not willing to try? We have no power over Israel, any attempt at peace and justice must come from them first. We can only counter react to Israel, we have no upper hand over them.

[safije]

I found out recently that there are religious Jews who insult Ishmael by calling him Prophet Abraham's "rejected son" and that they consider Ishmael's descendants (Arabs) as enemies of Israel, often referring to Arabs as Ishmael or "Ishmaelites".