#that’s rape. forcing or coercing someone who doesn’t want to have sex to do so is rape. end of

[reversetimelord]

Had to reblog with vaguely-annoyed’s tags

ngl I'm gonna need this site to stop right the fuck now with whatever rising aphobia has decided to suddenly skyrocket in the last month of 2023

[anamericangirl]

In response to what winged triumphant said.

“Don’t have sex” Is entirely possible.

“Don’t get coerced” learn to stand up for yourself. If you’re such a pushover that you’d let someone else force you into something like sex then you aren’t mature enough to be in a relationship with someone. You have to love yourself before you can love someone else. So if you’d let your partner, friend, or even some rando try to convince you into having sex and you don’t stand your ground, then you need to work on yourself as well. And before you say “what if he begins to use force” that’s no longer just coercion, that’s rape. And many raped women that become pregnant still give birth. It’s not victim blaming to point out one’s own faults in character.

“Ignore and suppress natural feelings” If you can’t control your emotions then you’re no better than a angsty teen. Being a mature and sound of mind adult requires you to be able to hold back from things, even if you want to do them. That’s where the whole consent thing comes into play. And nobody is saying you can’t have sex. Stop twisting our words and understand that what we’re saying is that you have to accept the responsibilities after sex. By the time we’re teenagers we should already know that kids come from sex. If it doesn’t need to be in graphic detail for kids then how are adults seemingly forgetting that? Did you guys just not take those warnings from everyone seriously?

“Develop a complex around sex that you need therapy to solve” Now you’re just getting opinionated. The people who get trauma about sex come from extreme backgrounds of being beaten and tormented by everyone they know and don’t know for sex. Those people that enact physical violence on others just because of a different world view are a problem and have nothing to do with the topic at hand; we aren’t saying you can have sex, wether before marriage or with a rando. What we’re saying once again is that there is a responsibility that many abortionist are forgetting.

We are not going to condemn women for having sex with men. What we will do though, is criticize them if they take pleasure in killing children in the name of “bodily anatomy”.

PREACH!

[horizon-verizon]

The power imbalance excuse doesn’t work because Rhaenyra didn’t punished or fired Criston when he refused to be her “whore”.

*EDITED POST* (9/23/23)

Anon talks about THIS POST.

A)

Primarily, it's the green stans not accepting the Dance is a tale of misogyny, and of they can get Criston's predatory behavior justified through him being PoC (which he is not, and even if he was Dornish, the Dornish are not PoC), they can argue that his lowborn, PoCness & whatever racism he experiences at court has made his rise into highborn "white" circles that much harder. And that it makes him more vulnerable to Rhaenyra's white privilege. Meanwhile, we all saw the episode where he never really pushed to leave AND he thoroughly enjoyed and enthusiastically participated in the one-night stand. His struggle was more between his desire and his vows of celibacy, Rhaenyra did not force him or threaten hi with either words, actions, or looks. That's not how SA goes even with women against men.

So, the implication is that if a PoC man seeks to rape or SA or even just to demand sex, bc white women can & have called out rape to avoid censure or punishment themselves, it's fine if it's a white woman being made the victim or being demanded to give herself to the man regardless of her personal feelings, aspirations, limitations, psyche, desires. And/Or, in this case, the man's flawed need to "prove" something through that sex and marriage. Regardless of who these people are and what kind of person Rhaenyra SHOWS herself to be instead of mere racial guesswork overriding what we see of her on screen and what Criston himself would have known after years of guarding her closely.

B)

The fact that she didn't seek out Criston's punishment or dismissal specifically for rejecting her doesn't mean that there isn't a power imbalance based on class, but that she herself chooses to not be petty or use her power against him. And the power imbalance that exists is still not strong enough even when we bring up their very different classes (below), so it still isn't an abusive relationship...but the show certainly encourages us to think so despite this (I explain in sections 1a & 1b of the post I listed above).

To clarify, it is not the carrying out of an action/termination that defines a power imbalance but the possibility of it and the power one wields "passively" and actively over someone according to their respective social roles/how those roles relate to another.

This power imbalance was not as dire or predatory for Criston as some people think it was AND while the show included both book versions of what happened b/t Criston & Rhaenyra, it didn't include her question about Criston Cole's loyalty/his own willingness to keep to his own vows. Which comes with its own implications.

C)

Power imbalances do not automatically equal rape and rape does not automatically exist b/t socioeconomically or sociopolitically nonequals during sex.

Rape or sexual assault is about someone disregarding consent, not asking/caring about willful "yes"es. If a person uses their power to coerce someone into having any sort of sex with them, then that is an abuse of power, SA, and likely rape. But If simply having power over someone makes sex rape then any relationship where one has any kind of power over the other person in any way is rape, which is a false deduction.

D)

Also, Criston very much wanted this:

E)

Yeah, you can argue that there is a "power imbalance" for every single relationship or relationship-to-be in this world, because that's how monarchial [from "feudal"] hierarchies work. Even within one's family/house, especially when you are royal. Viserys outranks Rhaenyra and is her "boss", a Queen Consort or Queen Regnant outranks any lover she may have that is not her husband, a King outranks all and any of his mistresses, etc. Rhaenyra outranked Harwin, AND Daemon. Aegon IV outpowered/outranked Naerys AND outranked Barbra Bracken. Ned Stark is the "boss" of his own wife (she provides him heirs and "works" at making sure the education of their kids is well enough/directs those who maintain the household) and even if any of his kids became warriors he is/would be their commander, their lord. His kids belong to him, and his wife customarily owes obedience to him. The "work" is landowning and military organization while the "workplace" are ancestral lands and the castles.

We can't really make modern power imbalances exactly equal to feudal hierarchies, the whole thing makes the family unit and sexual reproduction a business. The end-all-be-all. Unless you're in similar ranks or both leaders of your respective houses, you're not necessarily "equals". And then you factor in material wealth and reputation, ugh, it can get a bit messier

F)

With this in mind, Rhaenyra is not unlike many other aristocrats who begin a relationship with someone they have a power imbalance with. And she-Criston have a special case because Criston happens to be Kingsguard with vows of celibacy. In theory (or at first glance), the imbalance is greater in most senses. One is that he is politically bound into being a sort of servant with only one single purpose which is to defend her while not having the ability to draw up armies of his own, on his own, from his own house. Or have others do it in his own name.

Once again, noble women also have affairs, but because they are female they keep that under wraps just as Rhaenyra was going to with Criston, before he rejected the "mistress" proposal.

A big incentive behind her choice is that as a woman Rhaenyra would have a lot more to lose or risk than if she were a man/male heir going after any statused-woman. Since women are usually sociopolitically disadvantaged in comparison to men within classes and/or castes. At the same time, it's obviously not in Rhaenyra's character to do something actually predatory anyway, which he would have known from their years-long acquaintance--him following/hearing/observing her all that time.

This is supposed to present a problem to us viewers who were never in the original tale (if you're reading right) or if you haven't been paying attention to show!Rhaenyra's actions leading up to her and Criston:

Rhaenyra's disadvantage as a noblewoman-and/or-one-who-becomes-heir is undermined, even canceled out, erased & invalidated by this change. in making her (the 17yr old in canon, and 19 yr old in show) seducer of a "pure" (late 20s-30s) man, who supposedly takes his vows of celibacy seriously. (Yet he's contradicting himself and his faithfulness to his vows by espousing that he loves her enough to run away with her and have them both abandon their duties.)

VS

Criston was her supposed victim due to the very presence of their different stations and him risking his life more than he would if he weren't Kingsguard. So Cole is responsible for himself...but Rhaenyra is responsible for his decisions and his attraction to her. She must make his decision to sleep with her right by marrying him and "cleansing" his sin. So he does have agency, and his sleeping with rhaenyra wasn't coercive?

Choose your fighter. But you can't b/c the show doesn't really want you to, it wants you to see Rhaenyra as this decisive, unconfused woman-child forced to suppress more than even what we see her let out. The show overcomplicates a very simple dynamic by trying to make Rhaenyra into the bad guy and downplaying or erasing her own vulnerabilities.

That is somewhat alinahams was getting to, I think, in their post HERE. (Couldn't attach the original link.)

Finally, again, Croton was a Kingsguard, so the only person who could "fire" him from the overall service to the royal family and remove him from the Kingsguard is Viserys. He has more power than people might believe, esp by being much older than her.

[they-are-a-prolife-autist]

“Abortion doesn’t safe lives it ends them”

This line is ironic, it's more dangerous to give birth than to have an abortion, more women die from giving birth than they do from having an abortion.

The reality is if abortion was illegal it wouldn't stop abortions from happening, it would stop safe abortions from happening. If abortions were illegal it would mean drastically decreasing the number of overall abortions being performed at the cost of drastically increasing the number of unsafe abortions.

You talked about how abortions end lives yet if abortions were illegal, which is what pro-life people want, that would end up killing a lot of women who are desperate enough to carry out the procedure on themselves which would mean mutilating themselves and bleeding to death. Ironic that you'd call being against abortion pro-life if this is the consequence of making abortion illegal.

What about women who can not financially take care of a child? What about women who were raped? What about women who used birth control yet still got pregnant? Why should any of these woman be forced to carry out an unplanned pregnancy?

The reality is, a woman should not have to justify her reason to get an abortion, it's her body so it's her choice. Even if it's a ‘dumb’ reason, such as the women didn't want a child, it's her choice, she doesn't need to justify it, let her have her freedom which is her right to choose.

If you don't like abortion that’s fine, you don't have to have an abortion, but for all those pro-life people out there, please stop trying to take away abortion because YOU don’t like it, just as you have the right to choose to not have an abortion women should have the right to choose to get an abortion.

I also saw this not long after reading your introductory post, this is another problem with pro-life:

https://twitter.com/DianaMiller5/status/1522278413096132609?s=20&t=JyYvje8fG5EOR0XMu8ebQg

^ Yet you stand by the statement “abortion kills”

“The risk of death from legal induced abortion is reported to be almost four times greater than the risk of death from childbirth.”

Mortality after a birth 28.2/100,000

After a miscarriage 51.9/100,000

After an abortion 83.1/100,000

As evidenced above, an abortion actually drastically increases a woman’s risk of death. Aside from that, if someone is threatening to commit self harm or suicide in order to violently destroy the life of their offspring… that person needs psychological help and probably intervention in a dangerous situation. Not an abortion.

For example: sex trafficking victims are often coerced into abortions by the trafficker so that he or she can continue to make a profit off of them. A ground-breaking study by the Beazley Institute found 66 human-trafficking survivors had a total of 114 abortions — 114 abortions among 66 women. One sex-trafficking survivor described her experience:

“Over the years I had pimps and customers who hit me, punched me, kicked me, beat me, slashed me with a razor. I had forced unprotected sex and got pregnant three times and had two abortions at [a clinic]. Afterward, I was back out on the street again.”

The prevalence of forced abortions is an especially disturbing trend in sex trafficking."- Laura J. Lederer, the Senior Adviser on Trafficking for the US State Department

The previously quoted survivor of six abortions incurred severe infections from the scar tissue, necessitating a hysterectomy. She could no longer bear children if she wanted. Abortion is, at its best, 100% not safe for at least one unwilling participant. At its worst, these are the possible complications for the most common form of abortion.

* Incomplete abortion which may necessitate a surgical abortion

* Infection of the uterus

* Excessive bleeding

* Torn cervix

* Infection of Fallopian tubes

* Punctured uterus

* Blood clots in the uterus

* Reaction to anesthesia

* Infertility

Now let’s pretend for a second that every single non-elective abortion is performed by someone who is willing to kill themselves in order to also kill their unborn child. That accounts for a grand total of 7.67% of abortions and still doesn’t justify the people actively committing a crime against humanity (Article 7: 1a,b,h,I, and k) and attempting to violate another persons right to life.

“1. Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which the penalty is provided by law.

2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary:

in defence of any person from unlawful violence

in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained, and

in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.”

It is incredibly disturbing to me that so many people can look at the horrific societal pressure women are under to make our bodies convenient, how we are bullied into harming ourselves because we are denied equal pay, protection from our abuses, accommodation for our bodies etc… and the response is to glorify and promote genocide and call it female empowerment. We’ve been told for centuries that we have to hide our bodies, our needs, and our femininity in order to be taken seriously and become successful, and that our equality must come at the price of our own health and safety, the lives of our children, and the integrity of our biology. Our identities as women has not only been stolen from us, but weaponized against us. Instead of demanding true equality, we’ve settled for “close enough,” and “last resort” options that dehumanize us. We are teaching our daughters that it is empowering to conform, to meet the patriarchy on its terms and play the game by rules that don’t include us. We’re holding up hangers and threatening self harm just to feel like we are getting a seat at the mans tables, because if we’re convenient to them they won’t abuse us. If we can “take back” our pregnancy and still be beautiful, able to work for them, fuckable… we are safe and equal. THAT is a fucked up mindset and we deserve better.

Love how people get pedantic about terminology to avoid discussing the actual issues. ♥️

[dykefight]

I want to share some of the experiences of my loved ones and myself that started leading me to radical feminism

One of my best friends (currently a 19 year old college student) used to have an onlyfans and currently sells underwear online. She says that the most humiliating moments of her life happened on onlyfans and similar websites. She had guys ask things like would she have sex with her brother, could she cry on camera, or if she would piss herself for them. There were two men she encountered that still make me sick to think about. The worst one was a man who regularly paid for videos of her pretending like she was being raped by him without a condom. She would beg for him to stop, not to impregnate her, and she cried and screamed. She was not allowed to get any pleasure from it or she wouldn’t get paid. The man only found pleasure in the idea of a teenage girl being traumatized and abused. The other man paid her to dominate him over the phone. He wanted her to control every aspect of his life. He was nearly 30 at the time while she was 18. The worst part of this ordeal was that they knew each other from when she was around twelve or thirteen. During this time I watched her mental health rapidly decline. Her poor mental health ended up causing her to quit less than a year after starting her account. Now she sells underwear and the conditions are no better. She’s been asked to sell worn underwear, underwear she’s pissed in, underwear with her period blood in it, and underwear she’s worn while masturbating. She has been masturbating so frequently that her skin over her clit has begun peeling. The idea that this is empowering her as a woman makes me sick. It’s basically a form of self harm. Anytime I mention that she might need to slow down she explodes, ranting about how she loves doing it, how it’s good money, and that it’s her choice. No woman should be brainwashed into that mindset.

Two of my other friends have been coerced by their boyfriends into sex that they didn’t want. One of them was guilt tripped into having anal sex by her boyfriend. She didn’t want to have sex until marriage, which he already knew prior. She said he looked so disappointed that she felt like she had to let him do anal. She also said this was easily one of the most painful experiences of her life. She ended up being pressured into vaginal sex only a few weeks later. Another friend was VERY adamant about saving any kind of sex until marriage. Her boyfriend pretended like this was totally fine until around a year into their relationship. He starting persuading her into giving him handjobs and blowjobs, insisting that they were meaningless acts and no big deal. She complied but still wouldn’t let him do anything sexual to her. Eventually he got impatient and decided to touch her while she was asleep on a school trip. She admits to being scarred from this, but insists that he didn’t mean any harm and that he wouldn’t do it again. In March, they were at a party together and had a fight. My friend is known for being a lightweight. While she was furious and drunk, her boyfriend was barely tipsy. He apparently decided that the best way for her to get over it was to push her into a room and have sex even though she was fully unable to consent. At some point, someone walked into the room, saw them, and told everyone at the party about it, including complete strangers. People still bring it up to her like it’s some funny story. Neither of my friends see anything wrong with their boyfriends or their actions. I, along with mutual friends, have tried to bring it up but they insist that it was a one time thing, their boyfriends didn’t know any better, and that we’re being over dramatic. It hurts me to know that they’re just one of many girls who dismiss sexual assault just because they’ve never been told what is wrong in a sexual relationship.

My mom was raped by my father while they were dating. My mom was raised in a very religious family so she saw premarital sex as one of the ultimate sins. She was okay with everything except penetrative sex. At some point, they were naked together and he saw that as an invitation. She froze up and couldn’t bring herself to stop him. That was how she lost her virginity. It wasn’t until she told me that she realized he raped her and that was only because I told her. She didn’t know she was raped until over 30 years later. She said she always thought she asked for it since she was naked around him and let him get close enough for it. She didn’t know that there are multiple types of rape until much later in life, so she never connected the dots. If she had known, she might’ve been able to save herself from the abusive marriage that followed.

Speaking of my mother and her marriage, she was also taught that getting a divorce was a sin in the eyes of god, especially if the wife initiates it. My mom couldn’t bring herself to divorce him in the beginning and then once she had kids she couldn’t divorce him until she made sure he wouldn’t get joint custody of us. She suffered through 35 years of abuse all because of some bullshit she had forced upon her since she was young. My grandma on my moms side experienced the same thing and wouldn’t divorce my grandfather who cheated on her and had a child with another woman.

These last ones are my own personal experiences. I, like many women, have faced sexual assault multiple times. The first time was when I was 12 and sexually assaulted by my long time family friend who was 15. He was best friends with my cousin who I am very close to so he also became a friend of mine. We also went to the same school. One day the three of us were at my cousins house and I was sharing a blanket with the friend. Under the blanket, he began to brush his hand along my ass which I thought was an accident since we were on a small couch sharing a blanket meant for one person. It soon escalated to him grabbing my ass under my jeans and through my underwear and then cupping my boobs. This was all while my cousin sat five feet away. When I finally got the courage to get out I got a text from the guy begging me not to tell my cousin. It took me nearly a month to tell my family and the school. My family said they would cut all contact with his family and the school said they would make sure I never had to be around him in a school setting. However, almost immediately, my family went back to being friends with his family and my school went back on their promise. Even though the guy confessed and I had the texts as evidence, he faced no real repercussions. Another guy continually harassed me over the course of our freshman, sophomore, and junior year. He’d do things like grab me, slap my ass, stick his hand down my uniform, grind against me during class while I was bent over, and he always found new ways to contact me after being blocked. When I finally told a teacher mid junior year, the way the school “punished” him was by having his football coach talk to him. This is the same football coach that’s known to indirectly slut shame girls in front of everyone. The guys behavior towards me didn’t change so I just gave up. I was never taken seriously when these incidents came to light. Everyone just assumed it was something to brush off. That it’d go away after a gentle scolding. Even my peers who say they’re all about protecting and defending women basically responded with “that sucks” and moved on.

I turned to radical feminism because it’s given me a place to be heard. I can speak my mind. Even if someone doesn’t agree with me, they’ll have a civilized discussion or simply move on rather than start an argument.

[rantingcrocodile]

“Rape” and “sexual assault” are still read and automatically presumed to be violent acts, for the most part. We don’t have enough, well-known language to discuss different examples of sexual abuse. Even when situations are described to women, they still won’t understand that something terrible has happened to them or to others.

A straight woman who is constantly bothered by her husband for sex, who does not want sex, but who finally gives in and lets him have sex with her will roll her eyes and say that she consented, but... she wouldn’t have had sex if she was really given the opportunity to say “no” and not be asked again. It’s so normalised and even joked about by women that it’s often seen as part and parcel of a relationship.

It’s confused even more by those that question themselves.

“Yes, of course I want it,” she says, and so her partner continues, convinced that it’s fine, she said that she consented, and all the while she disassociates through it. Hates it. Feels dirty. Suffers through it anyway. Might keep suffering through it until she can be free enough to realise how horrific it felt and then finally, truly be herself.

Is her partner a rapist, if they believe that she consented? She was coerced, either by society, expectation, community, family, friends, peers, a mix of it all, but is there rape if the only one that could be called her rapist was convinced that she wanted it, even when she lied to herself? What do we do with that? 

When I was a younger woman, I had an experience that left me feeling dirty and used. I didn’t know what to do. I froze, but didn’t say no. I explained the situation to friends, a nervous laugh in the retelling, and both the women and men that I trusted brushed it off by teasing me about having a kinky threesome. It became a joke. My skin still crawls. I still occasionally have nightmares. I don’t have the word for that.

Sometimes, it feels as though we talk about rape and sexual assault, but when the specifics are written out without those words attached, there’s an automatic presumption of want. There’s a presumption that if the terms aren’t already recognised by the victim that it’s a valid sexual encounter. That it’s wrapped up in nothing but regret. Women faking feeling abused because they wish that they hadn’t consented to falsely accuse others to save herself and her pride.

Unless someone else brings up “rape” or “sexual assault,” it’s common to hear an experience and brush it to one side like it isn’t important. That it doesn’t have a lasting effect. That because the woman who experienced it isn’t crying and screaming and baying for blood, it couldn’t have been that bad. There’s no recognition that the forced giggle in the retelling is a cry for help, one that’s extinguished as soon as others ignore the sign. A flicker of hope that the wrong that she feels isn’t exaggerated or stupid, but a valid thing to feel sick and twisted up over. That she wouldn’t be wasting anyone’s time to talk and ask for help aloud. That she’s just as deserving of compassion as the victims who shriek and bleed.

We don’t have the words for that. Not right now, at least.

[astermacguffin]

I've promised a post about dual violations here before (in line with my evil deancas scholarship), so here's the official post about it.

(NOTE: I'm intentionally using the vague and general term "violation" here as a euphemism for physical, psychological, emotional, and sexual violence. At no point am I ever gonna explicitly describe such violence, but I am going to constantly allude, mention, and refer to such acts. Please feel free to scroll away if necessary.)

Thesis on Dual Violations. Fiction provides a great avenue for us to explore dynamics in special cases where both receiver and perpetrator of the violation are victims. This is not to say that they are similarly or equally victimized, only that they are both victims.

There are typically three ways for this to happen:

coercion, where the main driving agent of the violation is an external force, forcing itself onto at least one of the parties (e.g. posession, blackmail, etc.);

compulsion, where the main driving agent of the violation is internal, even if what started the causal chain was initially external (e.g. rage spells, sex pollen, etc.) and;

imitation, where one party is mimicked and the violation is done through that image. This is a very specific kind of violation—the main thing that comes to mind are fics where a shapeshifter imitates the victim’s loved one and performs the violation in that body.

The violations done to the primary victims are, of course, very obvious. But what I think we rarely engage with is the violation and trauma of the unwilling perpetrator. When the possession is over or when the spell finally lifts, what happens then? How do you deal with the consequences of having committed such an awful violation (or in the special case of imitation, having your image permanently tarnished in the eyes of the victim)?

Therefore, explorations on dual violations function as thought experiments on guilt. Note how in our categorization, all the names are in the point of view of the perpetrator-victim: you are either coerced to commit the crime, compelled into doing it, or imitated as doing it.

Below the cut, we're going to explore specific tropes in fics and how they fall into these categories.

COERCION

Coercion, where the main driving agent of the violation is an external force, forcing itself onto at least one of the parties.

We can generally categorize fics of this kind into two types:

Takeover. The Self/ego/personhood of the active party is taken over (e.g. one is possessed/mind-controlled and is forced to violate the other), and;

Gunpoint. The selfhood of the active party is intact (e.g. the active party is blackmailed/held-at-gunpoint to either (a) do the violation or (b) let themselves be violated).

Out of all the categories we will discuss here, perpetrators of violence under takeover coercion are typically those we deem blameless; there is usually nothing they could have done to stop the violation from happening.

In gunpoint coercion, on the other hand, although they are forced into restricting circumstances, the active party is doing it "with their own hands" and is not being actively controlled into doing so. They have at least a sliver of agency and control of the situation, unlike in cases of possession/mind-control. This means that we typically assign them with at least some degree of moral responsibility over the violation.

Note how we further subdivided gunpoint coercion. In fact, both coercion and compulsion violations can be divided into this binary: (a) being forced to do the violation, or (b) being forced to have the violation done to you.

To make sense of this, we're going to look at an example of Type B Gunpoint Violation. First things first, it's important to consider that the recepient of the violation can in fact also be the active party behind the violation. Let's see how this works through this example:

Person X is blackmailing Person Y into having sex with Person Z and making them believe it's consensual.

The thesis on dual violations argues that both Y and Z are victims here, with Y being forced to endure rape and Z being tricked into raping someone.

COMPULSION

Compulsion, where the main driving agent of the violation is internal (even if what started the causal chain was initially external).

We can generally split this type into two:

Corruption of the Mind. This is where something drastically alters the self/persona/mentality of a party (e.g. a personality-altering spell, a memory corruption spell, etc.);

Corruption of the Heart. This is where either foreign wants/desires are forced into a party or preexisting desires are warped and exploited (e.g. love potions, certain sex pollen or heat/rut fics, etc.)

Compulsion violations can often be more revolting than coercion violations, especially since we can often blame a third party for the latter. A lot of the time, perpetrators under compulsion are still themself, only warped.

In Supernatural fics, the violations done by Demon!Dean and MarkOfCain!Dean would typically fall under compulsion, because (1) no one is possessing him or forcing him to do these things, and (2) Dean is basically still Dean under these conditions, except his values and priorities are distorted.

Like earlier, compulsion violations can happen in two ways: being compelled to do the violation, or (b) being compelled to have the violation done to you.

IMITATION

Imitation, where one party is mimicked and the violation is done through that image.

This is a very specific kind of violation—the main thing that comes to mind are fics where a shapeshifter imitates the victim’s loved one and performs the violation in that body. Or perhaps by possessing a corpse; the mechanics doesn’t really matter. The point is that both parties here are violated and their relationship is horribly damaged due to this violation.

Imitation is a special case; some of you might wonder as to why it needs to have its separate category. This is because it doesn't neatly fit into any of our earlier categories. The main thing that sets it different from the rest is the fact that the "perpetrator" here doesn't actually perform the violation themself but is only mimicked by the one who actually does the violation.

We have been using the term perpetrator-victim to describe the perpetrators in dual violations; in the case of imitation, the -victim half of the term gains more weight—their image has been violated and their relationship with the primary victim has been terribly damaged.

Concluding remarks

The essay provides us with a powerful categorization system that can help us analyze fiction about special cases of dual violations. I do not claim it to be comprehensive; in fact, I might have missed other examples of dual violations that don't fit this current system. If you have any suggestions, please feel free to share!

(If anyone is interested in the list of destiel darkfics that prompted this analysis, DM me so I can warn you about stuff before reading.)

[naughtyneganjdm]

You realize that coercion is rape. Not to say that some of Negans wives didn’t willingly have sex with him, but Negan definitely coerced some of them into it. That is by definition, rape. Separate being a fan, from the actuality that he as a character, is a rapist.

You do realize I can coerce someone into going to the mall with me. Does that mean I'm raping them? You guys carbon copy what you see other people say. Coercion by definition is when you persuade someone to do something. It's like you think the definition of coercion is rape. It's not.

You do realize that not once on the show did Negan have sex with any of his wives. Not once did they have any of them talk about being forced into having sex with him. But they did have Negan say that if someone wasn't willing, it doesn't happen. You physically can't give evidence of Negan forcing anyone to do anything except wearing a black dress and being married to him while sitting in that room.

You people are so damn ignorant. I'm not coming at you from a fans standpoint. I'm coming at you with hard-core facts. Said by the actual writers and the actor who plays Negan. I am blown away that you actually think you know more than than the actual people who made the character. My God your heads are so big I wonder how you make it through a damn door.

You know, I guarantee this is still the person from yesterday and I'm going to report you because when someone blocks you, they block you so you'll leave them the hell alone. It's getting pathetic at this point.

Facts: the writers have confirmed themselves that Negan is not a rapist. You can believe what you want, that's your right, but it doesn't mean you are right. I'm not coming at you with an opinion, I'm coming at you with facts. Get over yourself.

[teiasviago]

Jaime’s not a rapist, so stop claiming he is

I got this ask last year about forgetting that Jaime raped Cersei in the show, and in the comments someone recently said this:

Book Jaime also raped Cersei. Jaime is a rapist.

To which I replied:

no, actually, he didn’t. their relationship plays with consent within its confines but it’s consensual all the way. Jaime’s a lot of shitty things but a rapist he is not.

Then, that person said:

Cersei saying no and Jaime having sex with her anyway definitely seems like rape to me, whether she gave in at the end or not since we don’t see it from her perspective. And there’s also her thinking of Jaime as a “man not to be denied” who will take what he wants no matter how many no’s he hears until she’s saying yes as well. Which sounds less like kinky sex and more like coercion to me.

Me:

if you think Jaime’s the one coercing Cersei in their relationship then I suggest you do a good long in-depth reread of the books. GRRM literally *didn’t write them as rape scenes*. It’s a dynamic in their relationship that plays with consent but *it’s just pretend*. If Cersei genuinely meant no, she would 1000% make it clear & Jaime would respect that. (Which Cersei *doesn’t* do when Jaime says no, choosing to insult him. Again: reread the books please.)

What I mean by “[i]f Cersei genuinely meant no, she would 1000% make it clear & Jaime would respect that” is that she would walk away or push him away or use a safe word/phrase. And she wouldn’t just make it clear to Jaime, she’d make it clear to us, the audience.

Them:

“A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes,” the other woman told her, “until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied.” “I know the sort,” the queen said with a wry smile. “Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?” “Robert,” she lied, thinking of Jaime.

^^^^ That right there (and the infamous “no our dead son is right there and someone might see us” scene) reads like rape to me whether that was GRRM’s intention or not.

And what does “she would make it 100% clear” mean? Was Cersei not raped by her husband (the only other man she’d ever had sex with besides Jaime before the war starts)? I’m honestly confused as to what you’re trying to say here. Is Cersei too “strong” to be raped? Are you saying it’s not rape bc she didn’t fight harder? Bc you know women can be raped through coercion by their partners and not put up much of fight and that it’s still rape, right?

But this might just be a matter of different interpretations of the book so I’m gonna stop here. But it’s interesting that you immediately jumped to “If you think Jaime’s the one coercing Cersei” like where did I say that? They are both awful people and their relationship is toxic bc they’re both awful to each other.

When Cersei says no Jaime thinks it’s a game and fucks her anyway (with no confirmation of this on Cersei’s side), when Jaime says no Cersei mocks him but she does stop. She also physically assaults him. Is one better than the other? In my opinion, no.

My response:

dude. they’re NOT both awful to each other. don’t minimize the abuse Cersei’s put him through. Cersei coerced Jaime through sex to give up his claim to Casterly Rock and you want to tell me that something so subjective as Cersei saying no when [safe words] exist and the books were written in a 90s mindset is rape? Jaime’s not a rapist. you’re entitled to your interpretation, but that doesn’t make it right.

also, Cersei’s not a reliable source of information. she’s a narcissistic self-[aggrandizing] woman living in a stifling feudal society. it’s quite normal for 1) an abuser to twist the facts 2) a victim to try to reclaim whatever freedom they can in relation to the abusive relationship, whether they realize it’s abusive or not.

ALSO also, you literally said “[w]hich sounds less like kinky sex and more like coercion to me.” so don’t pull the “where did i say that you’re putting words in my mouth” shit on me. I’m tired of people like you thinking you can just spout lies about the books bc your progressive or something. time period context matters and so does educating yourself on abusive relationship dynamics.

We need to have a conversation about how to identify mutual abuse versus a victim of abuse fighting back. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is not mutually abusive. Jaime is the sole victim. Does that mean he never did anything nasty to Cersei? No. But that doesn’t make him an abuser. Cersei manipulates him into giving up his claim on Casterly Rock; she belittles him after he loses his hand and cheats on him when she expects him to be faithful. Jaime never forces Cersei to give up anything. He never forces her into anything.

You cannot take their sex scenes away from the context of their relationship just to twist it to make Jaime a rapist. Their relationship lived on its illicit nature and playing around with power fantasies.

Studies have shown that victims of abuse may try to gain something back for themselves by turning their abuser’s tactics against them, but that doesn’t mean that they’re also an abuser. Jaime thinks of Cersei as a whore in AFFC because he’s hurt and using his abuser’s tactic of insulting him to fight back. Does that make it alright? No. Does this condemn him? No.

Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretation, but that doesn’t make it the truth.

[aggressive-positivity-network]

Hey, Asexual Aromantic here. I couldn't say that Sniper HC was accurate... I was molested as a child and raped as an adult. My response to ANY touch is to freeze up and stop breathing. Probably because my rapist tried to strangle me to death after he finished...

I am very sorry that happened to you. I can’t imagine how that must have felt, and I hope you find this question well.

My following answer is not trying to erase your spectrum of asexuality. There are indeed people who have been traumatized by sex and/or sexual actions and therefore have an aversion to sex. It is a tragic reality that disgusts and shocks me.

However, Sniper was not molested. He simply is asexual and heteromantic. The reason he is sex repulsed is because of the sounds and sensations that go along with it. He has no trauma associated with it, fortunately.

From my research and accounts from other people, I can say with 99% certainty that not every sex-repulsed person has been raped/molested/engaged in uncomfortable, traumatic sexual events. However, I may be wrong. There’s so little information about ace and aro people that it’s hard to find answers.

Sniper also does freeze up while the event is happening. It’s mostly out of fear of getting fluids on himself, or causing noises to grow louder. He also has had experiences where girls have pressured him - not forced, but coerced - into having sex. However, he is not traumatized. He has just learned to be passive and doesn’t want to disappoint people by refusing. Sniper believes that sex is something he must do in order to have a meaningful relationship. He believes it’s some sort of sacrifice on his partner’s behalf, and that others have simply overcome their disgusted feeling faster than he has. He isn’t even aware that asexuality exists.

All that to say: I need more data to go off of. Is sex-repulsed asexuality always caused by trauma? Can someone have a good home life and have no incidents and still be sex-repulsed? What is a heterosexual and asexual relationship look like?

Feel free to leave your personal accounts to educate my ignorant ass. I want to be as realistic as possible, and I don’t want to gloss over an important aspect of your asexuality.

[itsnothingofinterest]

So uh as someone who has studied domestic abuse and marital rape, lemme just say: endeavor is not "likely" a rapist, he is definitely a rapist. Even if he came to her with flowers and romance and said "my dear wife whom I definitely see as a person, I would love to have a family with you because I love you" and she agreed to that, its still rape. Because he either was lying flat out or through omission, and he used that falsehood to coerce her into pregnancy. That's rape (1/3)

(2/3) also, that romance angle? Gently manipulating her into sex? Yeah that would work ONCE (1). Once she saw how he treated toya/fuyumi (I can't remember if they're twins or not) she would know he was not trying to just make a family with her. Given how he doesn't have a problem saying straight out that he "created shouto to surpass all might" to people's faces, I don't doubt he would say what he meant to do in private as well.

(3/3) the ONLY way it would not be rape would be if endeavor was completely up front with his eugenics and rei said "okay". You know what, let's give endeavor even more and say not only was she was on board with the idea, but she's okay with eugenics now, even. That doesn't mean she would be okay with endeavors treatment of her kids. Even if she agreed with the eugenics idea, would she willingly (as without coercion, manipulation, or force)

(4/3 sorry I underestimated how much I can talk lmao) agree to another after she saw what he did to toya/fuyu? Would she want to bring another child into that house? We know she didn't. People need to remember that there's more than one way to rape someone. It's not just physical force; it's manipulation ("come on, you're supposed to be my wife"), lying ("no I don't want to commit a eugenics!"), or trickery (I didn't even get into all the ways to sabotage birth control), that's still rape!

(In reference to this post here)

You’re absolutely right.

To be honest, I only used “likely” there because I was worried Endeavor fans might jump on me for stating that as fact because it wasn’t objectively stated in canon (and perhaps never will because it’s a pretty touchy subject matter, even for this series). What can I say, confrontation can scare me sometimes.

But yeah, Endeavor’s “likely” a rapist in the same way the PLF will “likely” kill at least 1 person in the future if left free. It’s not necessarily an absolute certainty, it’s just something we can safely believe without even the remotest bit of reasonable doubt, and would require several massive stretches & assumptions to try and claim otherwise.

[desdemonakaylose]

A (hopefully) Complete List of Sensitive Content in "Hold Me Tight"

This fic takes place both in the canon-style present on the Lost Light, and in the past, with the Functionist Council. There's a lot of influence here from the Cryptanalysis series so if you know what that was like, you know what I'm talking about when I say The Past Is Dark.

Broad strokes: this fic contains every shade of rape you can probably imagine, some suicidal ideation, and more angst-whump than you can shake a stick at. The goal is a happy ending, but the lows in the middle get REAL LOW. I want people to be able to read this fic if they want to, and skip the stuff that might trigger them, so this is a part by part breakdown:

Chapter 1 is very light on triggers. Getaway discusses *cough fetishizes cough* the sexual trauma he thinks Rung might have. It ends with an explicit scene that looks light it might be nonconsensual (but isn't). The fic doesn't get any tamer than that.

Chapter 2 has consensual sex while bad memories linger ominously in the background, and then there are some very intense PTSD flashbacks triggered by someone who didn't know what they were doing. Also we have Getaway Infantilizes Rung Part Two Electric Boogaloo, in which a person with trauma is forced to explain their trauma to an audience. At the end of this chapter there's a flashback section with oral rape.

Chapter 3 is where I say Here There Be Dragons. You can ready the present day chapters without reading these ones, if you're good at drawing connections for yourself, but there is a lot of crunchy character stuff woven into the whump. In roughly order of appearance we have a POV character who's lost perspective on their own suffering, forced rape, forced orgasm, fisting in the same forced context, and in the last scene shock prod is used to coerce one victim into hurting another victim.

Chapter 4: the Wreckoning. The worst murk of this chapter is in the Alien Pets Section up top. Skip this section if you're sensitive to bestiality/xeno, graphic descriptions of sensory grossness (taste, smell), insecticon type bugs, or like... mentions of purging. Oh and it's got eggs in it. It's very intense. If you want to skip this section, jump past the whole first section down to "In the aftermath," which is where the cool down/comfort sex happens. And also where the Rung stuff I really liked writing happens. There is however frank discussions of suicidal ideation in this section, also.

From that point on, it's all just the escape narrative, which contain some cathartic but very graphic murder. Nothing more hardcore than Rung blowing a councilor and worrying about possible future starvation.

Chapter 5 is the denouement, and it doesn't have anything hard core at all. More of what was in chapter 2, basically. You can read this just fine.

So there you go! It's a very intense mix of hurt/comfort and angst/whump and if you like that sort of thing you're gonna have a good time. If you have more questions, feel free to ask me about them here, and I'll do my best to answer.

No anons, for reasons of "this fandom is a hellscape right now" but I won't publish anyone's asks unless they say I can.

[nix-that-rad-lass]

since OP of this post restricted or blocked me before i could reply...

Their response to my first comment It doesn’t mean you’re lesser or weaker or anything like that, it just means you aren’t a lesbian. This is like the people that see someone saying asexuals aren’t lgbt and respond with “so you think asexuals aren’t valid/human/worthy of respect?!” Stating the definition of words isn’t an insult to you or anyone personally, stop with this self-pitying act. This is exactly the same tactic TRAs use to demonize lesbians Lesbians are not attracted to men, we don’t have consensual sex with men under any situation and those of us who come from especially rough situations have a right to take pride in our experiences and unite with other lesbians who went through similar stuff, especially during this month ⭐🌈

My response:

1. some of the gold stars on here sling this sort of stuff around to say we are lesser.

2. at what point did i start slinging ‘not worthy of human decency’ around?

3. the definition of “lesbian” is:

a homosexual woman. - aka, an adult human female exclusively attracted to other adult human females.

just because some were not able to be out, or live their sexuality properly in the past doesn’t disqualify them. them self harming through men & sex, being abused, etc isnt being attracted to & loving men of their own will.

4. how in the fuck is this the same point TRAs use to demonize lesbians? that women who happen to not be gold star are indeed still able to be lesbians?

5. lesbians arent attracted to men. lesbians dont have sex with men of their own free will. actual lesbians who have had sex with men only do that because of coercion, threat, etc. and coerced sex is rape, innit? regardless of whether the coercion is by the man, peers/family, or the environment they are in, if they ultimately did not want it but were somehow forced into it, and did not have any attraction to a man, then please explain how the fuck that is being ‘attracted to and having consensual sex with a man’.

6. i never said yall dont have a right to take pride in your gold star! i literally said stop being shitty to non gold star lesbians! thats it! take pride without being an asshole! be proud! but dont go calling other women who happened to not have the same experience as you something they arent, insulting or harassing them. ngs deal with enough self doubt and bullshit from people in their lives already- something i would think gold stars would relate to as well. 

you twist my words, assume, and claim i said things i did not say. at the very least, i would think you (the one accusing me of ‘demonizing lesbians like a TRA’) would be the one to, idk, not prevent me from responding... like a TRA.

It’s one thing to say ‘yeah i dont agree, im done here’ and another thing to go out of your way to prevent me from responding. has ‘block and stay safe’ vibes. youre free to block me, but i would think you would have the decency and maturity to see a debate through to an end- even if no resolution was reached.

[ex-terfs]

I’m curious about how you were introduced to trans exclusionary ideology, and when you realized how toxic it truly is. I’m genuinely curious.

Hello! Sorry for the hiatus.So this is my story & long rant post.I've been among TERFs/Radfems (AKA the Conservative side of "feminism") since 2015. In mid-2016 — with the dangers of having Trump as President — I started getting critical of everything going on in the community, deleted older posts, & stopped reblogging "trans-critical" stuff. In 2017 — after seeing TERFs celebrating that the 'Everyday Feminism' site was facing a financial crisis & after paying more attention at what our "enemies" were trying to say — I unfollowed all the bullies, & eventually started to despise seeing "trans-critical" stuff. Their hatred towards the "big scary Libfems" is what made me rethink my priorities.

Many parts of their ideology had peculiarly attracted my attention back in 2015. As a GNC person who celebrates gender nonconformity, their gender abolition theories seemed very interesting (& I later found out how bigoted they are towards GNC men & GNC people with different identities/pronouns). When I was a sex-repulsed person, their porn-critical & sex-negative theories also seemed very interesting to me (I later found out how bigoted they are towards sex-repulsed people — upholding heteronormativity & saying things like "Haha, nobody loves you", "If you're a man/bisexual/lesbian, you must perform oral sex on your gf"; but still, I'm NO longer in the sex-negative/SWERF community). People sending them death threats was also one of the reasons why I had joined their movement.

It always begins like this. Step 1: you begin exploring anti-kink/anti-porn stuff; Step 2: you begin exploring anti-"MOGAI" stuff; Final step: you turn into a transphobe. That's how I got into this mess.

Second-wave theories originally had a critical focus on the social construction of gender & sexuality, monogamy, submission/masochism, natalism, the family structure, the fear of nonconformity, emotional/economic dependency, religion, & violence.As a feminist, yeah, I still agree with most of these analyses. I love reading academic books. But there was something different about terf/radfem tumblr. & this is all I've noticed over the years.

TERFs treat their word like holy truth.

TERFs use Right-wing "sources" to back up their transphobic & sex-negative arguments (& often associate themselves with conservative groups).

TERFs claim that all men are "biologically/physically the same".

TERFs contradict themselves all the time: claim that sex-repulsed AroAces are "usual straights", mock people who just want to remain single, & at the same time still say that if you don't want to have sex with men, then "you're a lesbian"; they say that people don't owe you sex, & at the same time say it's "not okay" for men to sexually reject a woman for "bad reasons".

TERFs claim that lesbians who are anti-TERF or who don't believe in the "born-this-way" theory are "fake lesbians".

TERFs are against the idea of removing your secondary sexual characteristics; & if an AMAB person doesn't like their "secondary sexual characteristics", then they must be a "delusional fetishist" (srsly I identify as a woman, but I still wish I could remove my uterus & have a breast reduction surgery; & it's not for sexist reasons! Shocking, I know!).

TERFs claim that men can't be raped/abused by women (not all TERFs believe this, but I still see them quietly following the ones who do).

TERFs have definitely never read a book with a different perspective/purpose, yet they will act like total experts on any subject (TERFs act like they're experts on Postmodernism & Queer Theory, but they have no idea what these theories are actually about. These theories are both very complex & don't have only one definition! Shocking, I know!).

TERFs will assume you're a trans woman if you don't disclose you're actually AFAB (& they could still have doubts).

TERFs are very manipulative & use brainwashing tactics. If you're AFAB & anti-TERF, they will say it's because of your "internalized misogyny" & will try to guilt-trip you. Because how dare someone has a different opinion! If you're AFAB & proudly calls yourself 'genderfluid' or 'non-binary', TERFs will get offended.

TERFs claim that asexuality only exists "because of the prevalence of porn" (Aces & sex-repulsed people would still be here even if porn didn't exist! Shocking, I know!).

TERFs claim that men who call themselves 'feminist' are "all predators".

TERFs would rather include transphobic men in their spaces than "those evil libfems" (those women are enemies).

TERFs claim that radical feminism is the "only true feminism", & that all second-wave feminists were "radfems".

TERFs claim that GNC men are "fetishizing" femininity (but according to TERF logic, masculine men are not fetishizing masculinity).

TERFs are extremely bigoted towards sex workers, polyamorous people, people who don't want commitment, people who are sexually experimenting or who are promiscuous (which is also one of the reasons why I left the sex-negative community; their views on sex/lust/love are similar to the Christian conservative perspective).

I can definitely assure you I still very well remember most of their URLs & blog content. There are many TERFs who hide behind aesthetic blogs, & use subtle TERF language & comforting rhetoric — which you might not even notice if you don't know much about their specific type of language & tactics (e.g. complaining about the "neoliberal postmodern identities" & about people "erasing females"). This type of TERF also may follow a bunch of (trans-inclusive) anti-'MOGAI' & anti-kink blogs. If you're trans-inclusive & TERFs follow you, it's likely because your blog content doesn't make them uncomfortable.

Their blatant transphobia is absurd & paranoiac, & they don't hide it. Anyone who disagrees with them gets called a "handmaiden", "lesbophobe", "male", "genderist", "liberal", "libfem", "special snowflake" (I no longer consider myself a radical leftist, but I don't consider myself a centrist either). TERFs call trans women as a group "fetishists", "delusional", "mentally ill", "sociopaths", "narcissists", "pedophiles", "necrophiles", "incels", "genderfucks" + slurs like "tr*nny", "troon", "tr0n", "transes". They say that the trans movement is "coercing children to transition" & "forcing lesbians to have sex with penis". It's pure fear-mongering. Their views on trans men are also contradictory — there are times they claim that trans men are "straight girls who are trans just bc they read fanfiction & watch gay porn", & there are times they claim that trans men are "brainwashed butch lesbians" (Pick a side!).

I live in a very religious Latin American country. The majority of the population here is not educated on gender/sexuality issues. I got the chance of educating myself better only after I've learned English. And then some terfs had the gall to say "academic fields such as Gender & LGBT Studies & philosophy are oppressive & pretentious". In a country like mine with a dark history of military dictatorships, censorship & anti-intellectualism, being leftist means protecting the social sciences in education & freedom of the press.

So yes, I left the terf community bc unlike them, I think for myself & I hate bullying (i was in fact heavily bullied for years in school, & only bullying victims know how it truly feels like). My terf blog is now inactive; I had 1000+ followers. I'm a very quiet person irl & online; I was never vocal about my real opinions bc I don't like getting into heated discussions & I didn't want to be featured on that gross radfem-gossip blog.I was very transphobic back then. & now it's quite possible terfs will say to me "You were never one of us". I followed & liked their blogs, just like they followed mine. I was loyal & obedient. Now not anymore.

[alightwhendarknessfell]

A relevant and difficult interview

https://youtu.be/DnltErqrn4U

This is a very important and relevant interview to watch in the light of allegations against Ashley. This woman in it is called October she worked merch for Jeffrey Star and William Control. Worked for William for several tours including with Black Veil when they toured with motionless in white. So this is during the 2010/2011 era of BVB. She felt forced to do things for William Control for years in order to keep her job and he manipulated her. She is asked around minute 28:00 in the video to minute 30:00 against if it was consensual or coerced. She started to say it was consensual then stops and starts to talk about Black Veil Brides. She was forced on her 22 birthday to be spanked in her underwear in front of Andy from Black Veil Brides while William did it. Saying so that was a thing that it was all considered open and normal and that William tried to pimp her out to the band guys on that tour. She established earlier in the video being forced to wear heels at all times and William taking her to BVBs hotel rooms for drink and stuff. She also claims BVB tried to force everyone as a band to sign NDAs back then even so they couldn’t talk about the things that happened to women like her on tour. She thankfully didn’t sign one and said she could spill so many more “beans” on them. She was such a different tone on her voice when talking about them. It’s concerning and also doesn’t match the idea that Ashley created this NDA situation. This confirms at least the band benefitted from silencing people and it was normal everyday practice to do so back THEN. This also establishes how women were treated by Andy. Which is pretty bad considering what is known about Will now and how they continued to associate with each other even on Andy’s solo tour. Of all the people in the world he could of had open for him while trying to escape Ashley and BVB he had William Control. She also claims Jeffrey Star pimped her out for weed. She also claims she was only allowed to have sex with men on the BVB Motionless tour. Doesn’t specifiy if it was band members or crew or both but had already said she was pimped our to them. She was not allowed to have sex with other men or be fired. I originally was watching this video today because it was about Dahvie, Jeffrey and William. Considering the backlash Jeffrey has been getting lately but I never thought BVB would be in this video and what would be implied would be in it. The reason why there are no allegations against the band at large and no allegations going back really prior to about 2015 when the band starte to fall apart is there may be victims of the whole band bound to an NDA and scared to come forward. I beg you Ren to share this watch the part between 28:00 and 31:00 or go back to 18:00 when she talks about meeting William and then going on tour with BVB up to what she said at min 28:00. This explains why the band really wanted to move forward quietly without Ashley. Now that I looked at the bands statement again. They never say they never knew things like this were happening in the past or that they had no part in anything just that they don’t condone certain types of abhorrent behavior. I am honestly stunned right now and nauseous after hearing her talk about them in this context. This video was released in a May a month before these allegations against Ashley came forward.

Submission: I watched this video when it came out. I will type out in full what she said in regards to Black Veil. And then I’ll give my thoughts on it. 

18:06: Interviewer: So after this tour did you go back to work with William?

October: Yes I did one more tour with William, um and that was Motionless in White and Black Veil Brides. Which I mean, it was a fun tour. 

Interview: So with William, did you ever see any, I know there are, I don’t know too much about it. Because I’ve mostly been focusing on the Dahvie Vanity thing. But with William Control there was sex cult, right? 

October: He does not have a sex cult, I feel like I should start there. He does not have a sex cult. But he is a dom. And he does have a lot of submissives. And I was one of his submissives.

23:48: October: Um so, I basically, when I started working for him [William Control] I was given strict rules. I had to wear a lot of black, I had to dress to sexy I was not allowed to wear flat shoes, I had to always have some kind of heel on. Even if we were at the hotel and we were gonna go to Black Veil’s hotel room to have a couple of drinks or whatever. I had to be wearing high heels at all times. So I had like a strict dress code which looking back, that’s insane. That’s insane. And he [William Control] was constantly trying to sleep me and I basically told him that I could never kiss a married man. And I guess like if you talk about like saying, like consent, the only thing that I put my foot down was that I said I can not kiss a married man. Ever. And he said well I could never have sex with someone I can’t kiss. But there was oral sex both sides, I didn’t want to. But, I felt like I had to. 

28:28 October: Here’s the great thing, is that Black Veil used to make people sign NDAs, and I never signed one so I can spill all the fucking beans on Black Veil. Like for my birthday, okay, I turned 22 and I was told [by William Control]  I would be spanked 22 times in my underwear and he wanted Andy, from Black Veil, to watch. So that was a thing.” And it was just, I don’t know, it was just normal and open and he [William Control] kind of tried to pimp me out and it was weird because in the scene if you were young, female, and did merch like you could get fired for sleeping with someone on tour. Which is insane because all these dudes had like a new girl every night, but as a woman if you sleep with someone you’re fired. Get out.

Interviewer: Like if you sleep with someone who isn’t the tour guy like the band? 

October: Yeah, I guess that was the differentiating thing was that if it was someone on tour, you see them every day, I personally never thought it was a big deal. Um, I had a big crush on the bass player of Motionless in White. And, so like William was trying to like set us up. But he didn’t understand like I like him I’m not just trying to sleep him, I like him. So it was like, I don’t know it was weird like I’ve never seen anyone in the scene be like yeah sleep around. It was so bizarre to me. [She then goes on to talk about the next tour with Asking Alexandria] 

--

So that’s all the parts I found where she mentions Black Veil. So my opinion on this is that this is much more evidence that William Control was taking his BDSM lifestyle too far in that the people he involved did not feel they were able to freely give or withhold consent. I do believe William Control is a sexual abuser. I think he hid that very well from people because of his BDSM lifestyle which could easily hide sexual abuse under the guise of the kink. It could be hard for someone looking in to tell what was part of agreed-upon ‘play’ and what was being forced. 

She actually says that the tour was fun with Black Veil, indicating she seems to have an overall positive experience of it (unless she was being sarcastic). As far as the ‘dress code’ she only gave drinking with BVB as an example but if William was giving her rules (because of the BDSM) then that doesn’t really speak on Black Veil’s part, they probably didn’t know the details of their sub/dom relationship. She states the only time she put her foot down was saying she would not kiss William (although her feeling like she couldn’t say no would mean this was sexual abuse). But that leads into the spanking thing. 

If she ‘agreed’ to it before Andy was brought in and he did not witness William pressure her then it’s possible that he thought she was okay with it and it as just part of their ‘play’. I will say its kind of disturbing to me that William wanted Andy to watch. At the time, Andy was 19 years old and William was a pretty well known and influential person. Why pick a teenager to watch? Yes, Andy was an adult, but William was much older and that’s just kind of strange. She never indicated if Andy wanted to watch just that William wanted him to. 

She also says ‘so that was a thing’ but is not specific as to if it actually happened or if that was just something William wanted to happen. I don’t think that speaks at all to how Andy treats women. She never even said he touched or made any comments. She never goes into detail at all about that. 

She never said she was pimped out to Black Veil, she said that William encouraged her to sleep with a member of Motionless in White that she had a crush on. She even says that she thought it was unfair that she normally WASN’T allowed to have sex with others because the band members did all the time (I agree, that’s sexist). 

As far as the NDAs go, those are commonplace on tours. That’s not a well-known fact but there are bands that do that. There is no evidence that she gives as to who in the band would want NDAs. I do believe given things I’ve heard and that given everything that has come out that the NDA when Ashley was kicked out was something HE wanted. As far as the NDA for this tour, she says she has ‘beans’ on Black Veil, I would love for her to do a separate interview about her experiences and until then I don’t think there’s much to go off of here. But the NDA could literally be to cover things like, Andy is drinking underage, drug use, trashing hotel rooms, cheating on SOs, embarrassing things, etc. It doesn’t have to be things like rape, murder, abuse, etc. She also never said Black Veil tried to get HER to sign an NDA, sounded more like people who worked for them directly. Her tone to me when she says that seems more like a ‘ooh this is some tea’ not really an ‘I have knowledge of criminal behavior’ tone. 

I think William is a manipulator and I think he hid his abuse very well from his friends, fans, and the public with his BDSM lifestyle. I think it's possible those around him thought the way he acted with his subs was part of the lifestyle. Tour lineups have input from a lot of people, not just the bands too. He has been in the business for decades and worked with a LOT of people. 

I think this specific interview is bad for Dahvie, William Control, and Jeffree but Black Veil? Eh, not really. I would wait and see if she come out with more information. I think October is a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of William Control, but nothing really indicates she was a victim of anyone in Black Veil. 

[chaseagainstonision]

Friendly reminder that Onision is a rapist~

I lue of his new video "Something You Should Know..." (direct link, please watch with and adblocker), I wanted to poat this in the tags again just as a refresher for those familiar with the situation and those who are new to this.

If Gerg were telling the truth, he shouldn’t have to sit there and insult someone and say something like “She goes to insinuate that, when we did make love, that I was forcing her into it. That I was pressuring her into it and she didn’t really want to. That’s funny coming from someone who’s slept with over twenty people. That’s really funny.”

Or like “You shouldn’t text a person repeatedly all the sexual things that you want to do with them and tell them on the phone all the things you want to do with them and talk about oral on a road trip, all the way back home, because you’re planing on taking is from one state to another. You shouldn’t be extremely sexual with someone if you don’t plan on being sexual with them and then turn around and be surprised when they have sex with you when they met you like… Two or three hours after, like in person.” (and this is echoed in the very last image in this post).

That’s rape apologetics straight from the videos that are linked further down. That’s essentially him admitting he raped someone because he’s excusing his own actions and pinning it all on AJ, like it was her fault because he thinks she couldn’t have been pressured into sex. Because you apparently can’t rape someone who’s slept with a lot of people. And you apparently can’t rape someone who you’re been sexual with through various forms of communication because you apparently now owe them sex. Because he assumes that pressuring and coercing someone into sex isn’t rape.

But he lied. He wasn’t in the right. His story isn’t fucking consistent at all and he keeps making excuses. And, I mean, rapists are wont to like, just like any other criminal. They are wont to deny their crimes. Because, y'know, he’s an actual fucking rapist an all and realized he dun goof’d when he admitted she was right and tried to back peddle and cover his ass. Unlike AJ, who’s always had the same thing to say about this.

And it’s cute that you lot think she’s lying when it comes to these emails, all because Gerg keeps taking them out of context:

(click through to read)

click through to read

Nowhere in there does she apologize for her letter. She apologizes for the mudslinging that went on after he started trashing her name but that’s it. Actually sit and read the letters and emails that she’s sent instead of taking his word for it. I mean, I have been paying attention to both sides of this argument and Gerg’s just got a lot of holes and inconsistencies while AJ’s been very forthright and doesn’t have any excuses (like Gerg and his “well, I couldn’t have raped her, she slept with over 20, you can’t rape someone that’s slept with over 10 people” excuse) or any variation of what happened.

Gerg’s still lying about raping AJ. Rapists (and criminals in general) are wont to do such. She DID admit, though not initially, to being raped. I mean, if you want her admitting to that, look at this link and you’ll see.

I WOULD NEVER CLAIM THAT SOMEONE IS A RAPIST IF THERE WASN’T PROOF OF THE MISDEED. TO DO SO WOULD MEAN THAT I AM NO BETTER THAN RAPISTS LIKE GERG AND MY FIRST EX BECAUSE IT WOULD MEAN THAT I AM BASELESSLY CLAIMING THAT SOMEONE IS A RAPIST. BUT, THERE IS ALL OF THIS PROOF THAT GERG IS A RAPIST, HENCE WHY WE CALL HIM SUCH.

Okay, so, while his ex, AJ, doesn’t outright say that she was raped in her original letter (which was meant to be a private conversation between the her and a friend, if I recall, and I’m assuming that the other person leaked it), she said no, he continued, and she gave in because he was so persistent, which will be shown below. In legal standards, he absolutely raped her. He even says that at least 90% of what she said was true without refuting it in his really creepy voicemails. He even proceeds to lie and say she had a smelly vag and later retracted it and went ahead and try to slander her character without actually making a rebuttal or trying to come up with a different story of what happened that night. Again, you might want to check out this letter, too, from AJ.

It doesn’t matter if AJ said that she just felt pressured into having sex (which, technically and legally, coercion and persuasion are considered rape since rape isn’t just forcefully having sex with someone against their will. It also means that, if you don’t get a clear, concise, enthusiastic yes, it’s a no and if you continue, guess fucking what? Congrats, it’s rape! You win nothing! Go straight to jail!) because it’s still rape in the eyes of the law.

This is proof that he raped someone. Straight up, the fact that this happened is disgusting:

We drove back to his hotel room, we walk in the door, I set down my bag  and instantaneously he starts making out with me. He immediately starts  taking off articles of my clothing, and we had only been there for not  even 30 seconds. He gets me on the bed, still kissing me and touching me  — between his kisses was me going “nononononono”, and him kissing me  harder to shut me up. I finally pull away long enough to remind him that  he said we were supposed to wait a month, and that maybe we should get  to know each other in person a day or two before we jump into having  sex. He asks me “Why?” as he continues kissing me. Eventually I realized  I was fighting an uphill battle, so I gave up and just went with it.

Because, once you say no, your partner should absolutely stop. No if, ands, or buts about it. The fact that he continues is legally considered rape.

Then he goes on to be really creepy, as the following:

During sex, he’s looking me in the eye, petting my hair, and asking  me if I want him to cum in me. I told him only if we can get Plan B in  the morning. He looks at me with these disappointed and frustrated eyes,  and says “Don’t you want to be pregnant with my child? Come on, let’s  make babies together!”, I told him absolutely not. And he still came in  me anyway. Luckily for me, he’s not that big of a creeper that he  refused to get me Plan B the next morning.

Basically the first 2 days of him being in Austin was him repeatedly  trying to have sex with me, cutting off everything I was saying to ask  me a sexual question or to make a sexual innuendo. It got to the point  that we got into an argument about it, because it was legitimately  starting to hurt my feelings. For some reason or another, he would take  me being frustrated and argumentative as a sexual challenge, and would  pin me to the bed and basically try to fuck me (or, as he says, “make  love”) into submission. It became pointless to try and fight it, so I  let him do whatever he wanted — which resulted in him cumming in me  countless times after the Plan B had worn off. With him citing: “If you  get pregnant, I will immediately marry you and will step up as the role  of the father for our child”. What a turn on.

This was all against her wishes. This was all essentially forced upon her. Tell me that this isn’t proof enough that he forced her to have sex against her will.

And, as an addition, Gerg likes to take all of what AJ said (via their back and forth in emails and some blog posts and things of that nature) out of context and like to twist her words and make it seem like she apologized for everything when that isn’t the case. AJ only apologized for any mud slinging on her part but stands by everything else. Taking only Gerg’s word on this at face value is being intellectually dishonest and being biased, which is, quite honestly, not a good thing.

And here he is, still trying to say that she obviously couldn’t have been raped because they were talking about sex before hand and obviously couldn’t have been raped because of the amount of partners she had prior to their relationship. I mean, it’s common sense that, once you start talking about pervy things, you have to oblige, right? I mean, it’s not like that’s rape, even if they tell you no numerous times… Right?