#that he forges evidence to be used against kristoph

[bigbraveboop]

who up thinking about phoenix wright

[mekatrio]

mfw someone says kristoph became a killer because his pride was wounded by zak and phoenix

[hyperfixatinator]

Regarding the mystery behind Kristoph's black psyche-locks, there's one possibility I'm a little surprised I hadn't seen mentioned yet.

What if Kristoph killed Zak Gramarye because he blamed Zak for Klavier leaving?

Hear me out. Kristoph is a major control freak, that much is certain. We also know he commissioned a piece of forged evidence worth $200,000 before he got replaced by Phoenix. That would mean Kristoph was planning to use that forgery against Klavier once they faced each other in court.

Now, that's a LOT of money to dump on a forged diary page for one court case. I don't know exactly how rich Kristoph was, but that seems excessive even by Edgeworth levels of wealth. I can only assume this one forgery for this one trial was a special occasion, reserved only for his novice little brother. Why? To beat him, of course, but it could be more than that.

It could be that Kristoph wanted to beat Klavier in his first ever trial to lower his self confidence. If Klavier stopped trusting his own judgement, Kristoph could've used this to make Klavier dependent on his judgement instead. Then Kristoph would have a prosecutor to take advantage of for free wins every trial they shared.

But here's the thing, Kristoph's goal wouldn't have changed after Phoenix replaced him. It's just the method that was altered. The plan was no longer to ensure Klavier lost to prove he's inferior to Kristoph. It turned into ensuring Klavier won all thanks to Kristoph.

The goal was the same. Kristoph could've used both of those outcomes to condition Klavier to become dependent on Kristoph's mentorship. But neither of those happened that day, did they? The trial never reached a verdict because of Zak Gramarye's disappearing act. This was something that was out of both the brothers' control, so Klavier couldn't blame himself for losing or give credit to Kristoph for winning.

Instead, Klavier left the court to go on tour with his band, and he didn't come back for seven years. In Kristoph's mind, his little brother left him for seven years, all because that magician ruined everything.

If this was indeed Kristoph's motive, then I can see two reasons why his psyche-locks would be black:

Kristoph can't accept that he's the one who drove Klavier away.

Kristoph can't accept that Klavier leaving had affected him to this extent.

[oppleganger]

Klapollo Week Day 1 : Confessions

imagine Apollo waiting for a serious moment to confess he had used forged evidence against Kristoph (but it's downright impossible cause Klavier won't turn off the riz)

[trlvsn]

phoenix wright making apollo justice present forged evidence is, as rightfully rage-inducing as it is, also perfectly understandable and even justifiable to an extent. in this essay i will not cut my introduction off with an old-fashioned tumblr punchline and will actually elaborate on why i think so and what i think about phoenix wright in general.

the first few paragraphs will be rather surface-level, but bear with me: i'm writing this in one breath. it has already been established that the change in phoenix's character was so big and shocking that the fandom is still actively discussing it and making theories. i have seen people compare his sprites with mia and diego, kristoph and miles, yanni yogi and many others, and every single on of them is, in in my opinion, correct: there are actual similarities between them, intentional or not. i believe it can all be explained with two simple statements. one: phoenix is a sponge of a man. even before aa4, we frequently see him adopt mannerisms and figures of speech from the people he encounters. he learns, he absorbs, he changes, but only for a short while, as he stays true to his motivations, passions and drive. two: the seven years of being watched by kristoph and collecting data made him turn to that mimicking quality of his and use it as a weapon. phoenix wright could not afford to reveal his true motivations, therefore, he could not reveal what he was in general. it's a simple metaphor, really.

did he get lost in the deceptions somewhere along the way? absolutely. "what tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive", a line said by him about kristoph, can easily be applied to phoenix. this is where the bloody ace comes in. incidentally, he is given the idea by zak: he is the one who says one can't win unless there's a ace up their sleeve, and, no matter how much of an influence that particular phrase had on wright, he follows the principle. here is phoenix's first motive for forging the ace: insurance. without concrete, dooming evidence, a trial could not end in his favor at the time. phoenix wright, post-disbarment, is no longer a man who relies on bluffs and "just believing in the client", he is strongly dissapointed in the system, outraged, offended, hurt, wounded, and he does not trust it at all, hence the dirty tricks. you can't just play fair against something unfair and win.

what i find far more interesting however, are his other motives. if the only thing that drive him to forgery was distrust and carefulness, he would have shared the plan with apollo or, perhaps, done something similar to the turnabout succession trial, where the letter is shown to the culprit, but never submitted as evidence and quickly admitted as a fake. really, i believe he is smart enough to find other ways. however, he doesn't. he gives the ace to apollo in a very specific way: through trucy wright, not a word of proper explanation. why is that? he is teaching apollo a lesson.

clearly, something about apollo reminds phoenix of himself. a young, bright, nervous mind, fighting for the truth and justice, full of belief, a little naive. phoenix knows what that naivety cost him, and he destroys it right away, because then it will hurt less, he thinks. the forged ace is a vaccine of sorts: you will experience some minor symptoms, but no actual serious consequences, and it will hurt for a moment, but for the rest of your life, you will never catch that sickness again. phoenix is already planning the jurist system reform and has already planned how this trial will go: the environment is controlled and safe for apollo, he will not get disbarred. if the truth is revealed later, under the new system, surely apollo won't be receiving the same harsh punishment wright did. so here you go, kid, learn your lesson, punch a lawyer or two in the face, and never ever, ever trust anyone like that ever again.

but wait, if the truth does get revealed, who will be receiving the punishment for it? of course, the man who forged the evidence, phoenix wright. here comes the third reason: punishment.

remember the class trial? young phoenix wright, blamed for a crime he didn't commit, overwhelmed and crying. what does the abandoned child do when the whole class accuses him of stealing? he stands up slowly and comes up to the kid with the grey hair to apologize for the money he stole but did not steal. he admits it. it doesn't matter what the truth is anymore, because if everyone thinks you did it, you might as well have.

you might as well do it again, for real this time, and maybe a weight will fall off your shoulders, because what you see in yourself will finally match the image the whole world has of you.

phoenix wright is working on the jurist system. phoenix wright is a father and phoenix wright is someone who will do his best to put kristoph gavin to jail. that doesn't mean phoenix wright sees any other use or future for himself. it simply does not matter. well, by the end of the first case, anyway.

he gathers more evidence. he thinks, a lot. he gives apollo advice on the cases, inevitability reminiscing. the new system is a success. in a new, better world, maybe he will take some piano lessons: he has grown tired of pretending he can play. he has grown tired of pretending in general. hell, maybe he will even take the bar exam again.

[jinxedshapeshifter]

Continued my replay of Turnabout Succession and realized something.

Apollo produces evidence that the poisoned stamp was in the red envelope on the second page of the letter. Apollo also raises this possibility before it's confirmed the poisoned stamp was on the letter.

Klavier is still denying what should be solid evidence.

This comes off as more than just "Klavier is struggling to handle this" because we know what it looks like when he can't handle something; we see it to an extent in Turnabout Serenade and we see it full force in the second trial day of Turnabout Succession. Now obviously this might just be my brain going a million miles an hour but stay with me here.

Klavier has a history of figuring out who committed a crime before anyone else, or at least whether or not the defendant is the real culprit. What if he had some vague memory of Kristoph relating to the evidence he was seeing, and specifically that envelope? I don't remember if Klavier specifically mentions the envelope when he talks about his investigation, but if he saw that envelope, assuming he was living with Kristoph when he was 17 (ie, when that envelope was mailed to Drew Misham), he might’ve recognized it 7 years later.

This actually makes his denial of Kristoph being the real murderer on the second day of the trial hit harder in my opinion. If he knew the envelope came from Kristoph, and he saw that there's atroquinine residue on that letter, that tells him Kristoph:

Intended to murder a guy with a poisoned stamp, and

Commissioned forged evidence

But Kristoph's his brother, obviously he wouldn't want to believe that because that means his brother has killed two people, not just one.

The first trial day of Turnabout Succession feels like he's denying these possibilities based on memories from when he was 17. I genuinely think Klavier realized where everything was heading on the first trial day, but didn't want to believe it because it implicated Kristoph so he didn't and opted for denial. It doesn't just feel like Klavier’s normal "trolling to keep Apollo on his toes", it feels like denial so he doesn't have to face a reality; the reality that Kristoph is a serial killer who forged evidence and manipulated Klavier into getting Phoenix disbarred with evidence that Kristoph intended to use against Klavier.

[blond-jerk-tourney]

Champagne Bracket: Semifinals, Poll 2

Propaganda from submitters Under Cut

Kristoph Gavin

tried to kill a 12 year old girl and her father, also killed some other guy because he lost to him at poker

Quick propaganda for kristoph because he fascinates me and i need to show off how insane he is: when a client choose another defense attorney over him he used an 8 yo to hand that attorney forged evidence. he then proceeded to use his prosecutor little brother to make sure the court knows the attorney used forged evidence, thus making him lose his career. he then proceeded to play 5d chess with said attorney for 7 years, all hidden under the label 'friends'. he tried killing the 12 yo who forged the evidence but ended up killing her dad 7 years later instead, but he had a plan b and still managed to almost kill the girl. when he met the client that i mentioned at the beginning again, he murdered him. he's manipulative as hell and wants to be the best with the most power and everything that he did said above was literally out of Pettiness for that one attorney, and also to cover himself up (not so successfully since he does end up caught)

Eichi Tenshouin

He is literally the centerpiece of The War in ensemble stars. He more or less rose to student council president position, gutted their entire school and instilled lots of new rules and stuff. He made 5 students public figures, then promptly dragged them through the mud. He gained intel from people close to them and utilized their weaknesses against them to execute them. They all ended up getting severely bullied. He's treated many friendships as transactional relationships. He sabotaged numerous idol units, putting one out of commission for months. All in all, it was brutal. He almost succeeded in shutting down an entire revolution a year later. On another note he is just. a cheeky little guy. Sassy man apocalypse

link to image of quote

both submitters invite you to read this explanation of "the war"

you guys should vote for eichi there is something deeply wrong with him

please vote for eichi!! he may not be the first character Midorikawa Hikaru has voiced who acts like both an s and an m, but he's the only enstars character i have a fan mix for! did you know he once somehow started a war in a foreign country that only sakuma rei could put an end to to get him away from eichi's childhood friend? did you know said friend had to tie him to his hospital bed to keep him from escaping out the window on a firetruck??

Eichi for the win that man is a war criminal.

[ourlordapollo]

Uh oh girl my Kristoph Gavin musings are calcifying into unshakable headcanons

Have we already talked about his pathological need for validation. Can we. Can we talk about it again.

Obviously this is all speculation and knowing the writers, the Gavins probably have some fucked up supernatural backstory and dead parents, but the writers aren't here right now. *locks the doors*

Anyway, for the sake of minimizing stupid ppl yelling at me (assuming I'm brave enough to maintag this instead of letting it rot in obscurity, unrebloggable), please mentally insert "IN MY OPINION" before every statement I make

This is a classic case of choosing a conclusion and retrofitting evidence to support said conclusion but. I'm allowed to do that. I'm not turning this into Professor Fandom for a special grade in "FAN 485: Feverishly Justifying Your Own Bullshit."

Anyway.

Let's recontextualize Kristoph's actions using the following framework:

Kristoph Gavin is a sad little boy in a man's suit, desperate for the validation of everyone around him to the point that he would do anything to get it.

1. Phoenix

A lot of people (alright, haters. A lot of haters. You made me talk like Donald Trump. Are you happy now). *ahem*

A lot of haters like to paint this move as stupid like it's some kind of "gotcha".

"What move?"

The dual move of voting in Phoenix's favor and choosing to befriend him.

Here's the thing.

Of course it's fucking stupid. We're not looking at the pinnacle of criminal masterminds here

Why did he do that? The psychosexual need to force Phoenix to submit? (Actually wait keep talking I want to hear this—) Paranoia? By this point in the timeline, he's already shown a willingness to commit murder, so why not just kill Phoenix?

Because (say it with me now):

Kristoph Gavin is a sad little boy in a man's suit, desperate for the validation of everyone around him to the point that he would do anything to get it.

He's not some wannabe criminal mastermind.

He wants to be Phoenix's savior. He wants to be the only thing Phoenix has. He needs to be the sole recipient of Phoenix's gratitude and admiration. Because he's better than Phoenix, dammit! Of course he's better than Phoenix. Law is a meritocracy, he's got money, he's got white loafers for fuck's sake, he wins trials by working really goddamn hard because being a lawyer is hard for everyone, you don't just stumble ass-backwards into the courtroom and win every case by stuttering and sweating and stalling so OBVIOUSLY KRISTOPH GAVIN IS BETTER THAN PHOENIX WRIGHT! SAY IT! SAY IT! Look! Look at them together! Look who's still a lawyer and who's an evidence-forging fraud! Look how nice Kristoph looks next to this sad burnout! Look! LOOK AT HOW MUCH BETTER HE IS!

Do you see what I'm getting at here.

Obviously on some level he knows and fears that Phoenix really is better than him, and that matters, so he he really really needs Phoenix's validation

And lbr, he probably does have a deep psychosexual obsession with the idea of forcing Phoenix to submit to him

2. Forging evidence

I'm not gonna speculate on Kristoph's lawyering skills here. Really, I'm not. However I'd be cautious about making the argument that he forged evidence solely because he thought Zak was guilty and he reeeaally wanted to win. We saw that it was an extremely tricky case and that Zak's innocence would have been very difficult to prove. It's entirely possible Kristoph believed in Zak's innocence but didn't think he'd be able to prove it without cheating.

That being said, I don't think it matters.

It matters that the case was complicated, but it doesn't matter whether Zak was innocent or guilty or a secret third thing, because Kristoph would have cheated regardless becaaauuuuse

Say it with meeee...

Kristoph Gavin is a sad little boy in a man's suit, desperate for the validation of everyone around him to the point that he would do anything to get it.

He was up against a fucking rockstar. A famous, hotshot, cocky, little upstart rockstar. A young prodigy. A fucking teenager. It didn't matter one bit that they just so happened to be related. Or did it.

Of course he needed to win.

(If you want to get really headcanony with it, which I do, I think the Gavin parents definitely raised their kids with an extreme superiority complex, setting them apart from their peers by straight-up telling them "you are better than they are. You are not like them."

Klavier goes on to prove them right by becoming internationally famous and beloved and Kristoph. Well, Kristoph is, uh. Well, he's a pretty good lawyer. Got his own little office and everything. And then Klavier comes into his domain as a cocky lil teenager with a HUGE, high-profile case and here is Kristoph's chance to demonstrate to the world what he already knows: that he's special too. That he's special. Dammit. Why can't anyone else see that.)

And then Zak takes that away from him. And gives it to Phoenix.

Unforgivable.

3. Apollo & Vongole

Sorry for putting Apollo in the same category as a literal dog but. That's kind of point here.

I've seen ppl theorizing that, although Kristoph seems like a stereotypical cat person, he got a dog (specifically a golden retriever) out of a sense of paranoia bc!! That's normal! Normal people have dogs!!! Wealthy people have purebred golden retrievers!!! I am so normal and wealthy, look at my very average typical status symbol dog!

I humbly disagree. Even the Wiki seems to point to paranoia as Kristoph's chief, driving factor, but I.

Well.

I humbly disagree. Let's not circle back around to this; I'm not trying to discount anyone else's headcanons.

Anyway.

Why a dog and not a cat?

Because cats have a reputation for independence, for coming and going as they please, for not needing you. "Dog," meanwhile, persists as a synonym for "loyal." To call someone a dog implies ultimate trust, ultimate submission, to someone higher than them. To their master.

Now.

Why hire Apollo, specifically, an orphan with few friends or connections and a fuckload of trauma?

Why mentor Apollo? Why adopt a dog? (Why befriend Phoenix?)

The answer is the same:

He needs people to depend on him. He needs others to view him as a kind, benevolent benefactor. He needs their praise, their admiration. He needs people to tell him he's special and he needs other people to see those people telling him he's special and also believe he's special and then he needs additional people to talk to those people and hear about how special he is, he needs the whole wide fucking world to say that KRISTOPH GAVIN IS SPECIAL!!!!

(Although. Maybe he just likes dogs. Not everything has to have a shady ulterior motive. People don't fit neatly into your preconceived categories of "good" and "bad." Maybe he's a murderer who loves dogs and genuinely thinks of Vongole as his best friend. Maybe he saw promise in Apollo and genuinely likes the guy. Did you ever think about that.

Or maybe. It's both. Two things can be true simultaneously and people, both fictional and real, contain multitudes and contradictions we could never hope to understand.)

4. Murdering a guy with a wine bottle, Psyche Locks

I'm gonna be so so real with you, I don't think even Kristoph knows why he did that. I think he blacked out. I think he was a lil drunk ("grape juice" my ass), I think paranoia and fury, the fear and resentment of 7 long, long years, collided like atoms in his brain and fucking exploded I think the bottle was cool in his hand I think his arm hurt I think he felt the impact all the way up his elbow I think the cards were red I think the cards were blue I think he saw Phoenix Wright's face dripping blood I think he blinked I think he heard Vera Misham calling him "angel" I think he watched himself do it from behind his own back

Do you understand.

To even begin unpacking why he did that, he'd have to address that nagging fear that maybe he's not special, that maybe he's just some guy, that Phoenix Wright is special and Gramarye was right in choosing him over Kristoph that Gramarye was justified in taking away Kristoph's shot at admiration and acclaim and Kristoph killed him out of revenge because he couldn't handle the truth that he's not special he's not special he's not special. Phoenix Wright is special and Klavier Gavin is special and now even Apollo Justice is turning out to be special and Kristoph Gavin is an okay-ish lawyer who sucks at poker and talks way too fucking much. That he committed so many monstrous acts and ruined his own life out of the perverse desire to be loved by others because he doesn't. love. himself.

(I call these "load-bearing neuroses" because if you knock one pillar down, the whole structure goes down with it.)

5. Vera Misham

So I think Kristoph is good with kids because he was, for the most part, old enough to be a Small Person when Klavier was born and because I don't think he gets off on exercising that brutal, domineering kind of power over the powerless. I don't think outward cruelty appeals to him.

Why?

Well...

Kristoph Gavin is a sad little boy in a man's suit, desperate for the validation of everyone around him to the point that he would do anything to get it.

Fear and deference are not validation. People talk badly about you and think badly about you when you're a bully. He charmed Vera instead of threatening her because he needed her to like him. He needed Drew to like him. Good god, he needs everyone to like him so much. Talk about him when he's not in the room and tell him what you said. Write him a letter of recommendation and let him read the contents. Sing his praises at your local bar, then send him a recording.

6. "Keep the riff-raff out!"

Ohhh, buddyyyy :( You said the quiet part out loud

Because law is a meritocracy. Because Kristoph Gavin is kind of a big deal. People know him. He's very important. He has many leather-bound books and his apartment smells of rich mahogany.

Only special people are able to become lawyers. And Kristoph is such a special, special boy. He's so special that he got Phoenix disbarred. He's so special that he helped Klavier attain acclaim as a prosecutor. He's so so so special.

But when a group of select people are special, it means that there's another group. The un-special group. The group that Kristoph is so afraid that he's a part of.

By admitting that they exist, that he believes that other people are beneath him, he's asserting his belief in his own inherent superiority one final, desperate time. He's clinging to it so hard his fingertips are cracking the marble. He's starting to bleed. It's starting to hurt.

Before Phoenix, Klavier, and Apollo fucking spin-kick the pillars propping up his self-identity, toppling them and sending the foundation of Kristoph Gavin collapsing into jagged pieces on the floor of his psyche.

—

Personal note but everyone seems to be in agreement that Kristoph's Psyche Locks fuckin. shattered into little bitty pieces during that scene. Don't you think that hurt? Don't you think that hurt like fucking hell? When you break [REDACTED]'s Black Psyche locks in DD, they cry out in pain several times and imply that their head hurts. And that was Phoenix doing it right that time! So I say again:

Don't you think that hurt?

[trivorowo]

Heck it, with the apollo justice trilogy on the horizon, I'm going to throw my hat into the ring. With how much hay is said about how each of them are mostly standalone due to how they were handled, I'm gonna argue that at the very least there was an theme/arc for Apollo. One of building trust.

SPOILERS FOR APOLLO JUSTICE, DUAL DESTINIES, AND SPIRIT OF JUSTICE.

So right off the bat we have Apollo Justice. In case 1, we see Apollo as this bright eyed lawyer, nervous but determined to defend his client and impress his boss in his first trial (Sound familiar?).

Of course, everything goes to pot. Compared to the easygoing first time round for Mr Wright, this is the polar opposite. Kristoph gets accused, Wright forges evidence to convict him, all the while Apollo is a mere pawn in Wright's plan. Apollo is of course appalled at the end, his entire world broken by to him, a washed up ex attorney.

Of course, with that same washed up attorney his only lifeline, he begrudgingly starts working for the Wright anything agency. It is crucial at this point to note that Apollo from this point onwards, he never works with Wright in a legal setting. Sure, he'll take cases from him, but never do they directly work together.

In cases 2 and 3, we see that first broken layer of trust begin to slowly rebuild, as well as his own confidence as an attorney. He still holds a more pessimistic view compared to other spiky haired lawyers, but he persists. His second case, though first conceived by the killer as a way to get away, ultimately lands in a first happy ending, albeit with much more effort than Wrights(albeit with less ghosts). Case three holds a similar factor of trust. Apollo hears the victims dying words, and uses that to base his initial investigation, holding on that he can trust everyone is telling as much truth as possible. With how case 3 pans out, everyone is hiding something from Apollo, even his defendant, but despite that, he suceeds, but making his defendant trust in him back enough to make him testify against the killer.

One factor of this is the fact we have a more mellowed out prosecutor in Klavier Gavin. The prosecutors are usually framed as a foil to the defense, and in this case, with Apollo's pessimism, what better way to counter it with a flirty, and guiding hand?

Case 4 holds some character development...but kinda off screen. After we have all the facts through the mason system, we are told that Apollo has been clued in by Wright about his true plan. With it, and the Jury, he can topple the devil that is Kristoph. I think it would've been a interesting take to show Wright telling Apollo all of this rather than just tell he did, as it would've allowed us the audience to see Apollo's reaction to the truth, and with it some of his trust in wright restored.

So ends Apollo Justice, with him ending in a somewhat better position than he started with, with new hope for the future

Then comes Dual Destinies. (As a refresher this game has cases in non chronological order, going 23415)

We start (chronologically) with case 2. This introduced us properly to best girl Athena Cykes. Interestingly enough, she too is a foil to Apollo akin to how Klavier was in the AJ, juxtaposing his still pessimistic outlook. This still helps him build trust by helping the rookie, and vice versa. In this case as well we see Wright wearing a suit for the first time (chronologically, at least. I know case 1 has his big return but in terms of Apollo and other characters, this is the first time.) Apollo remarks at this point about how much of a change it is after being so used to his depressed dad look from before, hinting that Apollo might believe he is past his deceptive ways, and to the player as well.

That is, until case 3. At this point in time, the player is controlling Athena and Wright is present as the two of them discover the body. Wright suggests they examine the body before reporting it to the police. This is framed as a necessity due to the 'dark age of law' and possible tampering, but I find it fascinating that only out of sight from Apollo does Wright do something that harkens back to his AJ days.

Then, the entirety of the space trilogy, cases 4, 1 and 5.

Within this, Apollo has a sudden case of edgelord-itis

Apollo has a conflict that arises within him. During the investigation, he suspects Athena, with her unable to answer him properly due to her childhood trauma. As such, he has to cover his eye, his ability to perceive, his one ace, in order to bury his doubts. But it isn't enough. He starts to copy the mannerisms and sayings of Kristoph, the first source of distrust, to counter his own perceived lack of trust between him and everyone else. Of course in the end, that trust is mended, with a ceremonial removal of the cloth covering his eye.

At this point, all three are working together, which might sound like it contradicts my previous statement about Wright and Apollo working together, but on closer inspection, it is an exception that proves the rule. At this point, it is a joint effort in order to demask and take down the phantom, and so the three are not working as individuals, but as a group, with Wright in the lead.

So ends dual destinies, with a hurdle of new trust broken and restored, with Apollo gaining a new ally on the same level as him.

Now comes Spirit of Justice. I'll only be talking about cases 2 and 5, as this game is a bit of a split protag mess.

Case 2 has Apollo finally acting in an all too familiar situation of defending an assistant. As such, this is a relatively standard trial (well, as standard as it could be) with not much to add, except for one part in the trial, where Apollo has to find the contradiction within Trucy's sword trick, leading a moment of distrust, but that is quickly resolved.

Case 5 is where things get interesting. To start off, the first half. As much as people rag on this by having Maya be kidnapped again, is still find it an interesting and fun courtroom case. Within any of the games, you were never directly against Wright until now. With his own tactics that you've seen countless times before now used against you, it feels more impactful, especially with you as Apollo. You can feel a sense of that somewhat cards held close Wright from AJ. This time however, Apollo is steadfast, and is able to take Wright down in his own game.

(As an aside, one way I would've maybe changed this to better flesh out this part would be to change Wright's motive to siding with Atishon. One idea could be simply money. Maybe hint throughout the game, especially with his trip to see Maya and Trucy's show most likely costing him a lot, he might've been more inclined to help, under his paternal instincts to protect his new found family. Or, it could've been as a deal for information on a case very personal to him)

The courtroom part of the second half is then where this comes full circle. For the first time since the start of the trilogy, Apollo is defending, and Wright is providing co-counsel. This concludes the arc, with Apollo finally accepting the help of the man who laid bare the truth in his own quest for vengeance.

[ivy-saurs]

HOLY SHITTTT so kristoph was going to use the forged evidence in his own trial?!! but then when zak dismissed him as his attorney, he used it against phoenix...

[demisexual-dryad]

I’d personally like to think Trucy knew what Phoenix was asking and was like “sic ‘em pops” because if I’m honest I’d want to get back at the dude who threw my life into shambles in the most poetic way possible too. Especially if the person they threw into shambles with me took me in without a second thought and stepped up for me because I was vulnerable, even if they were also hurt in the process too. Especially in trucy’s case where she comes to see Phoenix as her real father, and Phoenix adores Trucy as his daughter.

“You forged evidence and used me? Well, oopsies! Looks like the evidence you wanted to use against us was forged as well! Silly me, silly papa, how in the world did that happen? Oh? I delivered it? Well how was I supposed to know that it wasn’t real, that’s not my job, I’m just a silly teenager!”

I also believe she is far too perceptive to have not figured it out.

Like yeah, it’s not the merciful, righteous, “truth is unveiled in court” reveal that Phoenix would have pulled off pre disbarment, and it’s certainly not moral or legal the way he outs Kristoph, which definitely shows how he’s lost a lot of faith in the law because at the end of the day it failed both himself and his daughter tremendously, and it also shows how he’s willing to Bend and break rules if he deems it necessary- which he kind of didn’t before- but those are like, the bitter, scorned reactions I expect from someone who was failed so terribly. Phoenix and Trucy were both hurt by Phoenix’s disbarment. They bonded together through that hurt. Lived with it. Suffered through and persevered. But that anger would still be there, bubbling under the surface. And an opportunity to get revenge on someone who hurt you in a terribly satisfying way? Ooo boy. I’d take it. I’d take it and run.

a pawn twice over

[hyperfixatinator]

I have a few doubts about how Phoenix could've forged that bloody fifth ace in AA4. I'm not outright denying he did it, but if so it's probably different from how Turnabout Trump framed it.

Let's start with what we know logically about Phoenix and Zak's last poker game.

There were two decks of cards; one red, and one blue.

Each deck had four of each card. This means each deck started with four aces.

The last game used the red deck.

The above point means the fifth ace Orla snuck into Phoenix's hand was a red card, making five red aces in total that game.

Kristoph took the real (fifth) bloody ace with him out of the crime scene.

Based on this and other information we have from this trial, I have two questions:

When did Phoenix forge the bloody ace?

Where did Phoenix get the red ace he used for forgery?

Phoenix said that he picked it up while he was at the crime scene, but this contradicts the evidence!

There were five red aces in play at the time of the murder. Kristoph already took one, and using a blue ace was out of the question. If Phoenix really took a red ace before the police arrived, he would've only had four to choose from.

Yet, all four were still at the crime scene after Phoenix was arrested. They were even submitted into evidence by the prosecution at the trial.

Unless there was somehow an unspoken sixth ace in the red deck for no reason, this tells us Phoenix lied about taking a red ace with him that night. Plus, having forged evidence on his person during arrest and detainment could've ended terribly for him.

He couldn't have forged it before the match since he wouldn't have known he needed an ace card at the time. And his pockets were clean when Zak searched him.

This leads us to believe the forged bloody ace was created sometime after Phoenix was arrested. But how can he do that when he's stuck under surveillance in the detention center?

The secret is Trucy.

(this is where it progressively dips further into headcanon territory)

With Phoenix locked up, Trucy would be the most likely candidate to pull off a stunt like this. As a magician, Trucy is all about illusions, and she's not above using them to get loved ones out of legal trouble.

Trucy's magic profession also means poker cards are a natural tool to have in her arsenal. Cards are her "stock and trade" after all.

As Phoenix put it, it's a naughty magician's trick. One she felt was necessary to save the only family she had left.

Now, here's why I still think Phoenix could've been telling the truth about forging the bloody ace himself. Even if Trucy was the mastermind of this plan, I don't think Phoenix would let her be the one to actually forge it for an important reason.

Apollo.

Him unlocking his latent perceiving ability was crucial for the trial, but it could've also become a double edged sword.

Phoenix only had his prodigy daughter for reference as to how strong a perceiver's senses are. If Phoenix ever had to lie about being the forger to protect Trucy, the risk of Apollo seeing through it would've been too much to stomach.

Even after the trial's over, it's better for Apollo to hold a grudge against Phoenix instead of Trucy. He couldn't let their secret sibling bond die before it could start.

So what better way to hide a lie than to make it true? All Phoenix would have to do is put a blot of red ink on a card Trucy snuck in during visiting hours and let her work her magic.

It's a technicality, but at least Phoenix can distract Apollo with a custom-made truth.

[violet-traitor]

I finally started making ace attorney ocs the other day and I've just realised how hard that is shjghs. I could've chosen the easier path and added funky characters in ace attorney but instead I started making an ace attorney game in my head that will never actually be created and I have to think of how the cases would work. I consider myself a creative person but I barely have any ideas for incidents. Who knew fantasy ocs and worlds would be 10x easier to make.

Like I have an entire fantasy world with its own lore, species and magic systems but I can't even think of one incident for my aa ocs.

(I am going to explain all the lore i have in my head under the cut so it will be a doozy. also there will be some aa4 spoilers)

I want to make a major incident that gets resolved in the last case like your average aa game but I can't think of anything. I don't even know how the mc would have an assistant.

Plus the (probably) main villain I have in the making, is basically a kristoph gavin blueprint, except if he was a woman (possibly a lesbian) who didn't actually kill anyone but hired an assassin instead.

The main charcter/defense attorney is pretty much a mix of Apollo and Klavier (not really personality wise though). Her names is Himiko (haven't thought of a last name yet), she is a naive newbie defense attorney from a rich family whose assistant in the first case (that I have not yet thought anything of) is her older sister (long hair, glasses. Her name is Homare). Throughout the cases she goes through, she mainly faces off against a prosecutor by the name of Naysha Kennedy. Naysha is a more experienced prosecutor and at first she didn't really like Himiko due to issues she has with Himiko's family. That mostly goes for Homare since, as it is revealed in the last case, she used forged evidence to falsely convict Naysha's sister (she doesn't have a name yet) of a murder she didn't convict. I do not know the circumstances and the reason of the false conviction/victim/reason of the crime etc yet because I have no ideas. But things might involve other members of Himiko's family.

So Naysha was a bit, harsh at first? Against Himiko? Like how Franziska and Godot for example were going hard on Phoenix because they wanted revenge and stuff blah blah yeah you get it. But with time she started to realise how Himiko wasn't really aware of anything her sister had done. While she did become a lawyer because she looked up to Homare, she didn't pick up on her "cruel" tactics (she probably didn't have her as a mentor, even though I wanted that to be the case at first. But while I was writing this I realised it wouldn't make a lot of sense, hence why I crossed out the Apollo and Klavier bit in the beginning of the of the cut). Himiko hadn't spent a lot of time with her family because everyone was busy which lead to her being left out of things like that, plus, she is the youngest member of her family. Due to that, she knew nothing about what was going on behind the scenes and became a lawyer in a pure sense, as a way to save people from injustice and the general aa stuff. And with time Naysha came to kind of realise that and started being less harsh to Himiko. On the other hand, based on things Naysha has said about her family, Himiko feels very guilty because of the things that have happened to Naysha's family that she had not been informed of yet.

In the final case everything (in a way that I haven't decided yet) gets revealed and Himiko is able to convict her sister Homare of her crimes. I don't know what exactly (or at all) happens in that case but I feel like there would be Homare using manipulation to stop Himiko (Kristoph style) and the whole "omg I can't believe the prosecutor is on my side" when Naysha tries to help out Himiko. (btw personality wise Naysha isn't like, super mean to everyone, she's polite/nice but is usually pretty serious. The only reason she acted kind of harsh up until now was because of hers and Himiko's family situation). And in the end Naysha trusts Himiko and they're on friendly terms because she (Himiko) went through a lot for her, which makes her trust her almost completely. (no but quite literally, Himiko probably literally got disowned after all that it's crazy)

THAT'S IT the whole lore up until now

[nine-fingered-entity]

in some ways, the underdevelopment of aa4 is great because there's so many unfilled crevices for me to burrow into and spend hours thinking about

[eleanor-v02]

Ok I get that Tails is from the very popular Sonic series but Klavier is so interesting a character.

He became a prosecutor at the age of 18 and won his first ever case when it was against Phoenix Wright, who is a legend in the legal world.

Seven years pass and Phoenix is now accused of murder. Klavier's is the prosecutor and his older brother (a renowned defense attorney) Kristoph's protege. Then it turns out his own older brother is the murderer.

Klavier has a few more cases against Apollo Justice (Kristoph's aforementioned protege who unearthed his mentor as a murderer) and loses all of them. In one, Klavier's close friend and a member of his band is found guilty of murder.

Eventually it turns out that in that first case against Phoenix, Kristoph forged evidence and tricked Phoenix into using it so that Phoenix would be debarred and Klavier would win the case.

Yet, despite all this Klavier doesn't hesitate to help Apollo uncover the truth, even if it means betraying his own brother.

Round 3 Wave 2

[palant1r]

we just finished the first turnabout serenade trial and klavier is being a bitch: an analysis

I don't think Klavier has a crush on Apollo. I don't think Klavier likes Apollo at all. I think Klavier is trying to get Apollo disbarred, and I think this is the interpretation that makes the most sense with how Klavier acts.

-Klavier has absolutely no reason to believe his brother is guilty. Kristoph was convicted on extremely convenient evidence that could easily have been concocted by the defendant, a man Klavier knows is a forger.

-See his wording when he calls Apollo "the boy who bested my brother." Not "caught." "Bested." As if that trial was a battle of evidence rather than actual truth

-At first, Klavier comes off as very kind and cooperative. But then, when he's no longer in control of the trial and he doesn't believe the defendant could be innocent, he quickly turns cruel and condescending. He constantly says that Apollo doesn't have what it takes, yet is also goading him at all times into presenting evidence.

-He is a lot like his brother. At first, we don't see this because their body language and behavior is so different. But in Turnabout Serenade we see that, just like Kristoph, Klavier is a paranoid control freak who uses his charisma to make everyone else follow his cue in conversation, and we first see his breakdown sprite when Lamiroir says something he wasn't expecting and couldn't control

-I think Klavier thinks Kristoph is innocent, and Apollo is a weak-minded foolish young attorney who was manipulated by Phoenix into presenting false evidence. That's why he goads Apollo saying he should learn to think for himself. Klavier does not know how complicit or knowing Apollo was, but he intends to find out.

-Klavier is more cognizant of the penalty system than any prosecutor we've seen, and actually interacts with it. He seems to have a vested interest in raising the stakes for Apollo, in making the punishments harsher for presenting the wrong evidence

-Unlike past prosecutors who would draw the trial out and force Phoenix to present evidence they already had access to that was favorable to the defense, Klavier seems to want Apollo to present even evidence favorable to the prosecution that Klavier could have led with. He's giving Apollo every opportunity possible to present evidence, and trying to make him desperate enough to fudge or forge it

-Klavier needs to have control of all the information and what everyone knows. He doesn't let Apollo and Trucy onto crime scenes to be nice. He does it so he can know exactly what they know, what evidence they could have found, and what evidence he should keep an eye out for that they couldn't have found.

-Klavier's paranoia about the keys and the guitar makes a lot of sense with this interpretation. If you're trying to catch a man who forges evidence and frames the innocent, of course you're gonna panic when stuff of yours goes missing and turns up at crime scenes, or little incidents happen around you with no explanation. And that's why he asks Apollo if he torched his guitar, even though from our perspective he has no reason to think that

-"But Andy," you may ask, "Klavier makes an effort to be close to Apollo and hang around him, like how he invited him to the concert? Why would he do that if he didn't trust Apollo?"

-Good question. What kind of person would keep his enemy close like that?

-The kind of person with an obsessive need to keep an eye on every situation. The kind of person convinced that anyone they let out of their sight will act against them

-The same kind of person who has regular dinners at the Borscht Bowl Club with a man they framed for forging evidence seven years ago, say

-compare "I knew you didn't have what it takes" to kristoph telling apollo to "not embarrass me"

-the worst part of this theory? Klavier is totally justified. Phoenix is a forger, Apollo presented forged evidence, and Kristoph was convicted using it. He just happened to be guilty. Klavier is perceptive, smart and principled.

-re: klapollo, I think Apollo was genuinely charmed by Klavier in turnabout corner. He thought Klavier was cool and pretty. Like, that's in his internal dialogue. But we're not getting any of that favorable towards klavier internal dialogue in Turnabout Serenade, because he's starting to see beyond klav's carefully constructed mask

-edit: I'm seeing a lot of people say this is negative towards klapollo and...I honestly don't see it that way? like ymmv so I'll remove the klapollo tag to be polite but this isn't negative to klapollo in the same way that pointing out edgeworth's flaws isn't negative to wrightworth. where we're at now, I think the story is definitely setting up the seeds of a relationship between klavier and apollo that is FAR more interesting than just "haha the prosecutor had a crush from the first time they met." and again, while the popular fandom interpretation is that klavier fell first, i firmly believe that apollo had a lil crush in turnabout corner that's evaporating in turnabout serenade, but will turn into a far stronger emotional connection than the superficial attraction klavier was trying to elicit

-anyway i'll probably add onto this but i will die on this hill