#tbh I'm also a fan of her in teen titans

[diabeticgirl4]

Sometimes I forget how widely known Ashley is outside of critical role, I'm waiting in line for her autograph and the ppl behind me have never even heard of critical role and had no idea what it was. Wild.

[nitewrighter]

My "favorite" memory of someone asking about getting into comics was a Teen Titans cartoon fan asking me what Starfire was doing in the comics and if she should check it out. At that time, Starfire was part of the Outlaws and trying to sleep with Jason Todd and Roy Harper at the same time. So immediately steered her to the older stuff.

Ohhhh man I remember there was a fan comic a while back that was like "This is Amy--Amy grew up with the 2003 Teen Titans and her favorite character is Starfire! Now Amy's older and wants to read about Starfire in the actual comics!" And then it cuts to Red Hood and the Outlaws Starfire going 'I'm bored. Show me your penis.' Amy goes 'This is garbage' and decides not to read the comics." Although i also know a solid number of fans who like RHATO Starfire because "Omg polycule energy!"

Tbh it is kind of wild how much mainline continuity comics can differ from their cartoon contemporaries. Like I'm reading comics that were coming out around the same time as BTAS right now and like, this is absolutely the time when millions of kids were falling in love with Batman because of BTAS--and like, I can't make a full judgment because this is Bruce as he's showing up in other heroes' titles and big crossover events and not his solo titles, and it may also be my residual "sick of his ass" from Dark Nights Metal talking, but a lot of the time it's like, "Wow Bruce is kind of an asshole, huh."

BTAS Bruce is my dad because he raised me and he loves me. Comics Bruce is my Dad because he has significant control and communication issues.

[monsoon-of-art]

What are your main inspirations. I love your art.

You have no idea about the can of worms you just opened-

Truthfully; a lot! I take inspiration from everything and everything. That's what artists do :) but there's a very very long list of books and shows and movies I've watched/read that have stuck with me.

As a child I had a weird bunch of VHS tapes, video games, and books. Mom and Dad was a comic collectors, and dad was a musician so I got a lot of interesting songs too. Some notable bangers are: Yellow Submarine (the animated movie), the sonic movie, a few episodes of Pokemon (the one I remember most is the island of giant pokemon and when Pikachu gets ramen), and Spyro. I also watched a fair share of Disney and Pixar, Bug's Life and Nightmare Before Christmas being my favorite.

Sonic is definitely what I remember drawing the most, tbh. My first OCs were fan children! But animation was my absolute favorite thing ever, and I wanted to draw so good-

Once I was in my early to late teens, I got my fingers on the Internet, (and learned to pirate) my horizons broadened! My favorite artist at the time made a comic called Random Doom, a slice of life comic about their gen 4 team, and I literally would not be here today without them. They have no idea I exist and I'm happy with that. I haven't followed them in years but I remember them fondly. Another big artist I followed (and still do!) is Bechnokid! Her art is such an inspiration to me, even now! I want to steal it and put it in my mouth

Other notable things: the first two how to train your dragons, glass animals, Spiderverse, Cartoon Saloon, You Are Umasou, Indie Horror projects too long to list, Don't Starve, Lord of the Rings, old fairy tales, MegaMan (especially the Mangas drawn by Hitoshi Ariga), Steven Universe, the original Teen titans, Avatar the last Airbender, Bobs Burgers, Futurama, and honestly probably so so so so much-

[hellisanhonourstudent]

Luke being a bad person/doing bad things makes him more tragic as a character,not less

This is(mostly) a copy-paste from a meta I wrote on Reddit. Besides,I'm only talking about the books,the tv show is 100% ignored in this analysis.

Disclaimer:this isn't to excuse Luke's actions or to diminish their severity,it's just that his terrible deeds are a fundamental part of his character as a sympathetic villiain when it comes to both words,not just the latter one.

Luke's life was extremely turbulent. First,he was raised by a mother who not only couldn't properly raise her kid,but she also yelled about his terrible fate while her eyes had a supernatural glow. To top it all,Hermes didn't give any sign,no matter how much Luke prayed. An unpleasant way to get introduced to the divine,I'd say;

Because of May's "crises",Luke ran away from home. There,he had to deal with all of the crazy stuff homeless kids/teens have to,besides the monsters wanting him as breakfast. Perhaps it was during this time he learned about how dangerous the demigod life was,plus desensitization to violence - at least,the beginning of it. Another amount of time Luke prayed for help,but none came until he was 14. To top it all,Hermes said growing up in the streets "builds character";

Camp Half-Blood itself. It surely beats living in the streets(being protected from monsters,training,regular meals),but it's far from flawless. The place has a blasé attitude towards violence and death. Besides many demigods(especially unclaimed ones) going on suicidal missions just to get claimed and/or a smidge of the godly parent's affection,people get slaps on the wrists as punishments for maiming and killing other demigod campers during Capture The Flag(no desserts). If Luke wasn't indifferent towards murder before CHB,he surely became. Now that I think of it,Sally is the only one who deserves credit for Percy's moral code when it comes to authority figures;

After all that happened,Kronos appeared and decided to manipulate Luke. TBH,I think the failed quest was just the last drop. Luke had way too many reasons to get angry at the system,two decades of trauma(he was 19 in TLT,but I'll round it up). Kronos was a bad influence to Luke,using his ressentment to make Luke undego several kinds of decay - including moral;

Using seduction as a weapon on young teens isn't such a dealbreaker for me,as a Luke fan,and even that is part of the tragedy of Luke Castellan. Not only he had to grow up early and his ideas of youth are warped,but there's also the infamously small demigod lifespam. Besides,Luke's exposure to the good parts of the mortal USA moral code might very well be limited(not to mention he himself was unprotected by society). On a tangent,him falling for Annabeth is stupid - whether it's canon or not (I don't want to debate it). Rick wrote them as having a sibling relationship,makes a big deal about a "family promise",then decides to make a love triangle? Way to trash an emotional arc. Now,back to the main topic. Luke being a manipulator and victim of manipulation at the same time is a great way to show how "hurt people hurt people";

Negative emotions. Rick Riordan said Luke's fatal flaw was wrath,and it surely fits. However,another thing that repeatedly doomed Luke was some sort of emotional fragility. First,Luke said Kronos paid him compliments and gave him important stuff to do as a sign of appreciation. Then,the Titan Lord himself said Luke hated and envied Percy. Envy is very hurtful and often stems from a feeling of lack. Luke also was shown as someone who needed validation. From TLT(namely the praises),to TLO(Luke,hosting Kronos,mentioned something about how Chiron "said the gods cared about me"). Even to save Olympus,Annabeth had to offer Luke support.

[ravensvirginity]

I just saw your post about Raven’s relationship to sex and I knew it was probably sort of out there in the comics, but I didn’t actually know her total origin.

I’m like, half working on this DCYA graphic novel concept around and older Raven (idk how she ages, but the concept art I’ve made has her in her mid to late thirties), adopting a younger relative found on another planet. I don’t really know the lore well, so I wasn’t sure if younger half brother, or nephew, or something else makes the most sense, and I was basing him loosely off of Razer from Green Lantern the animated series.

The story is ultimately more about him and his love interest because it’s a YA concept, but I thought it was interesting I got some of the Raven lore right on accident. As the story idea revolved around a teenage alien with powers tied to strong emotions falling in love with a robot who secretly has a soul and the drama and angst that comes with it. I had him ask Raven how to have a relationship when you have emotion powers and her answer was basically you don’t.

My logic was stemming from her powers and also the fact I can’t really think of any love interests that make sense to me (Damien and Beast Boy being the only two, and I don’t really care for either as a love interest tbh). But the trauma of what happened to her mother would add a dimension to it, since this adopted son character would not really know much if anything about the demon side of his family.

Anyways, I really need to read the classic comics! Sorry is this is sort of incoherent lol, I’m running on not a lot of sleep. But I just wanted to share my idea and Raven concept. I’m glad I found this blog because a lot of the modern Raven stuff feels like a flanderization of the 03 show. I imagine the departure is even stronger to a fan of the OG raven.

Okay wow, you have no idea how excited this ask made me! I would love to hear more about your graphic novel concept. It sounds really fun!

I think either half brother or nephew could work, though I'd personally lean more towards half brother. In the original version of Raven and Trigon, Raven is his only surviving child after over a hundred failed attempts. However, this was retconned in 2008 and since then Raven has had some form of either brothers or siblings in general (generally she's relegated to being the only girl though).

That being said, there is a noncanon graphic novel that takes place during the 80s timeline where it's revealed that Raven had a forgotten sister who kind of slipped through the cracks. Her sister goes insane without anyone to teach her how to use her powers, and Trigon doesn't know she exists so she's just kind of left to languish on Earth. I feel like this is the most similar to your concept! New Teen Titans: Games, though I'd recommend reading the regular series before you read the graphic novel.

"I had him ask Raven how to have a relationship when you have emotion powers and her answer was basically you don’t." This is incredibly Raven imo. I think she could mostly be a good mentor, but she has a lot of baggage related to how she was trained to use her powers and her trauma from Trigon in general, and she'd probably inadvertently end up passing that along to a sibling who has the same heritage as her.

Yeah, I'm not big on either of those ships either. Raven having to teach her relative about their family would be so interesting and is such a fun concept! Unfortunately, I'd imagine that he would have been conceived in a very similar way to Raven, given the way Trigon behaves. I'd be really curious to know what happened to his mother and how he ended up in Raven's care. Seriously, I'd love to read this story!

I totally recommend the classic comics, I love them dearly. While some elements of them have definitely aged poorly, I don't think any future version of Raven managed to be better than the original. I really agree about modern Raven feeling like a flanderization of 03 Raven, unfortunately. Toon Raven is not a perfect adaptation of Raven's original comic characterization and there are changes that I would've never made myself, but she's a much better version of Raven than whatever is going on in the current comics. Her current appearance and personality is really like someone trying and failing to guess what made toon Raven popular and pumping out an almost completely unrecognizeable character as a result.

Thanks again for this ask, feel free to send me more if you'd like! I'm always so happy to talk about Raven.

[hawkgirlz]

You're the only person I see criticising the JL cartoon and tbh? Slay. It's one of those things from my childhood that I don't want to revist now that I'm comic reader and also an adult with a lot more media literacy under my belt, because I know it's probably shit. What are your thoughts on the OG Teen Titans cartoon, btw? 👀 I hate how it basically started the Raven and Beast Boy relationship in the comics bc I am a Rae stan and I hate BB.

not a fan of how it started this weird perception on kory that she isn't violent and even makes fun of her foreign traditions, even though she's clearly symbolized as an immigrant.

[wesavegotham]

I think Williamson admitted that he simply misremembered who did what, but it's weird just how often both writers and fans misremember storylines as Damian acting worse in them than he actually did while the bad actions of other heroes get remembered accurately or even get toned down.

For example, Bruce broke KGBeasts neck and left him lying in the snow in Batman #57, but when Damian talks about what Bruce did to KGBeast for shooting Dick in the head in Teen Titans #43 he says that Bruce only broke KGBeast's back, which is less lethal than what Bruce actually did.

(Also, hey editor, Dick got shot in Batman #55, not #85)

Talia is often treated the same way as Damian (tbh even worse than him in my opinion). Morrison always defended turning the conception of their son from a consensual relationship to Talia drugging and raping Bruce by claiming they simply misremembered the events of Son of the Demon, but how damn weird do you have to be to think "oh, there was this story where Bruce and Talia had a son, but how exactly did that happen again? Eh, I'm sure she drugged him to convince him to have sex with her, I'm not gonna look it up". The fact that Morrison misremembered it that way and didn't try to look it up before putting it in Damian's origin story still tells us a lot about Morrison.

Like...you can't tell me that would ever happen to a white love interest like Catwoman. They would simply assume the sex must have been consensual and not anything weird.

You know I still find it hilarious that in the little Robins get-together in “Robin (2021)” #5, we had Tim reprimand Damian for slicing his throat even though Damian literally never did that in any continuity and even though Jason, who canonly did slice Tim’s throat, was literally next to him.

Its seems like demonizing a child in order to victimize Tim while simultaneously ignoring all the far more horrible things another grown man did to Tim is no longer a fanon thing, but is slowly creeping into canon too.

[greta-hayes]

Young Justice 2019: new members

So as anyone keeping up with the 2019 comic knows, the team is getting bigger. Now i wanted to go over who their adding and trow my thoughts out there so let’s start

Aqualad:

tbh i don’t have any problem with him joining, he was made for  the show that took the team’s name (even though it’s more a teen titans show but that’s for a different post) and tbh i see him working well with the rest of the team.

Sideways:

I can see that his powers could very useful since the team is dealing with going into different verses a lot. Though i am worried he’ll end up like The Ray did in the 90′s comics and just be in the background a lot of the time

Arrowette:

I’m happy she’s in rebirth but they should not have her in a hero role, cause it means one of two things: unlike Tim, Bart (and maybe Cassie and Kon) she doesn’t remember stuff from before rebirth (and is likely to go through the same arc from the 90′s comic or something close) or, She does remember and the writer is going to have her still acting as a hero even though being a hero was something Cissie didn’t want and was forced to do by her mother (who was abusive at the time) and she left for her own health.

There are very few ways to handle this that old fans will be ok with and tbh this spot would likely work better for Empress (whom really needs the spotlight as there’s no sign of her in the show or other comics meanwhile Cissie has some people like her that fits into a role close to hers in the show, also she could be a normal person in the comic)

now the last new member,

Actually she’s not all that new to the comic. Stephanie Brown: was meant to be a part of a young justice team, one which would have came after the 90′s young justice, said comic may have helped the team avoid things like the show and the 2019 comic’s identity crisis (the fight between being for new or old fans). Now i don’t know what this comic would have been like maybe it would’ve been bad or maybe it would have been great but what matters is that Steph is not new to Young Justice.

She’d sometimes show up in the old comic (though mainly due to a member of the team wanting to fight Steph) and is a friend of Tim’s (the team is mainly just a friend group tbh) so her joining the team would have happened at some point, but that doesn’t mean that right now is the time for her to join mainly due to somging i’ll talk about at the end of the post one things: (

the writer doesn’t seem to understand that a lot of Tim’s friends don’t like Steph, to learn this all you have to due is look at other Young Justice blogs and you’ll see the posts about this, the writer seems to only be able to write the relationship between Tim and Steph meanwhile forgetting that the comic where Steph would have been a member of a young justice team didn’t come to be, there has been points in the comic so far where it seems the writer thinks Steph was as close with the Young just team as Tim. now this could be fixed by having Steph have time with members of the team to bound with them and work on relationships but that is unlikely to happen (i’ll go over that soon). the stuff i’ve crossed out are info i got out of the context of the stories these moments are from, i made the mistake of trusting posts to include the context of story lines while talking about character meta, someone was kind enough to tell me the context, i am keeping it here as removing any sign i made a mistake would be untruthful puls it’s a good way to show what happens when you don’t look into things before posting about them

So that’s it everyone, this comic is hell post over!/J, except no... the thing is. There should not be even more members right now

right now there are 8 members (7 while Amethyst is away) they are going to add 4 meaning there will be 12(/11) characters on the team now that doesn’t sound all that bad but the thing is the comic can barely handle 7, a lot of the team haven’t talked with one another, there’s way to many story lines at this point (dealing with memory's from the old verse of young justice, Cassie dealing with Zeus, Jinny’s stuff in her tuck, Kon dealing with being gone, what happened to other old members of the team, how did Tim start remembering things from old canon, the way Teen Lantern got her powers, what earth-3 means about whose side steph is on, how does Bart know about old Young Justice and what does that mean for His mental health, everything going on with Kon.)

yeah half of this has been seen since before gemworld. right the writer really needs to just let the characters talk to one another (i mean hell the core 4 haven’t really chatted about the whole Kon being gone years thing), the last thing this comic book needs right now is more members, even if it was the dream line up of new members it still would be a bad time to add them. the book needs to flash out what it has right now, if it can do that then it will likely have all the time it needs to add new members to the team in a way that fits.

The problem is not the characters (new, old, made for the new comic) the problem is how the writer hasn’t had the characters we do have do things that matter, no talking to each other, no fun side characters to care about, no recurring villain (at least none that seem likely to show up again), very little in ways of an identity

[yvtro]

Not hatred or arguing: just like confusion

Why do you like Jason Todd? Like everything youve talked about is stuff that just seems unlikeable do you like his potential or like what? Also somewhat related are you a Helena Bertenelli fan because I could not get into Jaosn because of what I expected but she's literally fanon Jason

easy: i love 80s robin jason. i reread these comics a couple of times a year; his main run in 'batman', barr’s detective comics (which are my favourite!), his cameos in 'teen titans', 'the cult' etc. i love even the stories written by starlin, because there's somehow still so much sympathy and sensitivity for his background there (that current mainstream comics lack).

i love that his (post-crisis) origin story has to do with his natural drive to intervene in case of injustice. he is such a relentlessly kind and caring character, that unlike most other superheroes/vigilantes doesn't start his career as a form of vendetta. his background is absolutely dreadful, but even as a kid he is so mature about it, so considerate about his family's struggles; there's barely any resentfullness towards people in his own community, if any at all. despite what bruce says about taking him off the streets and giving him robin to make sure he wouldn't end up a criminal, throughout the whole run you see that jason was not made 'irredeemable' by poverty. he did what he had to survive, he is rather emotional when it comes to power dynamics (as he should be tbh), but there's no inherent innocence loss. he is still portrayed as a kid, who is maybe a bit incompetent sometimes, but ultimately his strenght lies in his compassion.

then starlin comes in, and messes things up a bit, but at the end of the day even he doesn't ever show jason as someone with any deep-rooted malice nor anger. jay's progression into becoming more "unlikable" is marked by his frustration with not being able to protect people. with his insecurity and need for a stable family. even when killed off, he dies trying to save someone who put him in this situation in the first place.

and besides the moral dimension and his heroism, there's other stuff that i adore. his thirst for knowledge. how he deals with trying to fill in dick's shoes. how he naively worships him still. his first attempts at detective work. there's so much charm to these stories and his character there.

so the jason i like is not just his potential; it's very much an exisiting character, even if he was not written in this way for decades.

i don't love the way jason is handled post his resurrection and it's no secret, but that doesn't mean i think he is completely unlikable. there's some of his personality that preserves even through retcons: how desperate he is for love, his abandonment issues, how his idealism gradually descends into cynicism. the delusional need to achieve justice. there are some new themes that i'm really interested in as well, because i *love* a character who gnaws at their own wounds, i love tragedy of people who walk backwards into what they sought to destroy. what i don't enjoy is how the writers completely got rid of nuance in his stories and made him into a stereotype. and the reason for which i want his development to go into a completely new direction is 1. because there has to be something done with the classism 2. in all honesty, it's becoming boring (if wasn't boring for years) and i love a good twist and a reconstruction 3. most importantly, i want his personality to be reconciled with his 80s runs personality.

so i'd say i like jason because i like his original (post-crisis) characterisation, and i actually love his comics from that era too. this is precisely why i whine about post-2005 stuff so much.

but, tbh, i think it's a case for *many* fans who like older comics; most of dick fans i know can't stand his current characterisation. my other favourite character is talia and i could also spend hours complaining about the treatment dc comics gives her. bruce's character has been off the rails for years. for kon there is progress in going back to his old personality, but his origin story (which is in my opinion one of the most interesting plotlines in the history of dc) has been erased since like 2000s.

i guess my point is that there are plenty of characters who's been completely retconned so you can't expect people to enjoy all of their content on the same level. and well, i have some posts about stuff that i love about jason, and that i find immensly interesting, but things like that naturally don't get as much traction as me bitching about poor creative decisions. and people tend to ask about stuff that has to do with my criticism rather than praise (so thank you for an opportunity to do the opposite this time).

also i never really got into helena's comics, but since you said that, i now have to! thanks for recommending that, i'm actually really excited for it. is there any particular book you think i should start with?

[sparklyicecube]

Some references to what I'm talking about: (I haven't read all her comics so I'm limited but it is what it is)

Titans (1999) is what I recommend for anyone who loves the fab five titans and anyone in the fab five. It characterises everyone beautifully and Donna is so sweet and kind and we see her deal with identity issues like who she is, her being born of Wally's memories and blowing up at the other Titans for trying to make her play therapist too much. The entire run is great and I recommend all chapters tbh.

The New Titans issue 50 is where she meets Phoebe, the dying Titan of the moon who is sort of her bio mom but also not. This kickstarts her whole "I'm actually a Titan child that is more divine than Diana" backstory but doesn't tell it in its entirety. I don't know exact chapter numbers but before this arc Dick did her a solid and went detective digging to find her birth mother and adoptive mother (who had adopted her for a month before giving her up) and found out that a lot of her earthly memories (from this iteration of earth) before she joined the teen titans was a lie.

Tales of the Teen Titans issue 50!!! I cannot stress this enough but chapters 49 and 50 is her wedding prep and her wedding respectively! Yes she is marrying a not worthy guy but also the entire thing isn't about him. It's about her. Everyone is praising her, the entire superhero community comes in their secret identities, Terry's family is telling him how lucky he is because Donna is clearly the catch in their relationship, etc etc. Also! We see my love Jenny as the flower girl and Donna's foster sister!

The Return of Donna Troy. This is after Donna has died died. Like, after Dick is in Outsiders and Young Justice have had to become Teen Titans and everyone is super upset about her death. (Donna's wedding and death are some of the biggest events in supehrero history). As a Greek mythology fan, I greatly enjoyed it. Not because it was accurate (bc it's a multiverse of course this multiverse's titans of myth are different) but because the titans??? Are being manipulative assholes and Donna has basically been reborn as a nepo baby forced to watch and participate in their genocidal colonialism and all her friends come to snap her out of it and she reels from the horror of what she's done. This is the best place to discover her origins personally and is where she is married to creepy Coeus.

The New Titans (1988) issue 89-92! She gives birth to Robbie (after carrying him wayyyy under term) and he immediately gets kidnapped by his future self and Donna goes full mama bear (full unfeeling giant god actually) to get him back. Robbie was super great to see here as well! (And her giving up her powers was bs and misogynist bullshit)

In New Titans (1988) Annual 2, Donna sees Terry and Robbie presumably for the last time because they get the restraining order and she loses loses custody (which was a government plot!!! And she should be there to protect her son because he'll be hunted whether with her or not!)

Side note, I enjoyed reading Green Lantern Volume 3 (1990), especially chapters 58,59, and 88-90 where she is with Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern)! Kyle has grown on me so much and she has some really cute domestic scenes with him, meeting him, flirting with him, (post divorce) and even going to his mom's house with him! In chapters 89 and 90 we get the scenes where Donna finds out that Terry and ROBBIE HER SON died!

There are so many more, I sort of like the current Titans 2023 run for Donna, and I'm not super following the current Wonder Woman series but I love Donna in it (and her relationship with Diana is so interesting I might do a whole post on it at another time) and I actually like the Mark Waid Teen Titans run and think that he should continue it to at least 50 chapters to let all the storylines he set up actually see fruition (like Wally's parents reveal to be not great because it's Mark Waid he knows what he's doing).

Hope that helps!

Titan experts - specifically for titan dynamics and Garth and Donna - help!

I’m writing a story about Duck Grayson raising Mar’i Grayson and I want to heavily feature the Titans. I’m trying to gather info on them and it’s been hard to really grasp their characters.

[comickergirl]

Hi Comicker! I was wondering if you could tell me what's going on in the DC comics world? I'm a fan (more of the TV show/film end of the fandom tbh), but I do try to keep up some with the comics and... Convergence lost me. Lost me hard. And I have no idea who Johnathan Samuel Kent is and I- yeah. Yeah. So...help? Please? Who and what is happening? P.S. I thought I saw you answer this for someone recently but I couldn't find it, so I apologize if this is one of those "FAQ" things for you ^^"

Hello! :D

Oh, no, I actually don’t get a ton of comics questions. (Like. Current continuity stuff. I’ve done a handful of recs but otherwise, I think this is the first I’ve been asked about what’s going on with DC right now!)

Okay, this is going to...probably be long, and there will be SPOILERS for stuff, so I’ll hide it under a ‘read more.’

Update: Yeah. It’s long. And I spoil like. A good chunk of the DC universe titles out RN.

Right, so. Convergence.

Don’t know how far you got into Convergence, BUT, basically: Brainiac does what Brainiac does best. He steals a bunch of cities, bottles ‘em up, and screws with ‘em. (Oh, there’s also like, this Telos guy or whatever but...yeah. IDK.)

The cities were basically pulled from the DC multiverse so there was Moscow from Earth-30 and Metropolis from Earth-2, that sort of thing. And while the cities were bottled up, or whatever, the superheroes were without powers. (I’m gonna recommend checking out Jeff Parker’s and Doc Shaner’s Shazam Convergence title, just because I can.) 

Also the cities had to fight? For some reason? Because comics?

Anyways, that ‘without powers thing’ is kind of important, BECAUSE!

On one of those worlds/cities/what-have-you was a pre-Flashpoint Clark and Lois.

And Clark, being a bit more human due to that no powers thing, was able to have a kid with Lois.

THUS. JON KENT WAS BORN.

And then once Convergence was over (stuff went down, IDK what exactly, I too was frustrated with this whole thing and stopped reading) pre-Flashpoint Lois and Clark basically got to pick a universe to go to (because their home went ka-plooey I guess) and they picked Earth-0.

AKA, The New 52.

And I’m sure there were other things goin’ on but let’s just skip ahead to what really matters and that is:

Totally-not-a-reboot-guys REBIRTH

So, Rebirth kicks off with this big ol’ oneshot thing that kinda boils down to (white) Wally West returning to the New 52 Universe and kinda making everybody go, ‘whoa, hey, did we like, experience a line-wide-reboot that erased a bunch of continuity to get that sweet, sweet new-reader $$$?’

...Alright so they didn’t say that exactly but basically Wally showing up is screwing with everybody’s perception of the known universe, or whatever. He brings HOPE and LIGHT to the grim, joyless New 52 world.

(Grim and joyless here referring to the actual DC editorial mandate that the heroes cannot be happy. I’m not trying to be snarky, that was...that was a thing.)

So NOW we get to the part where I tell you that I am not reading every single Rebirth title, because who has the time, really. So I can only catch you up on a handful of characters, but hopefully that will be...sort of helpful:

THE SUPERFAM:

New 52 Clark finally died. (This was a storyline that started before Rebirth.) And when he did, Lois and Lana (the new 52 versions) were caught in the weird explosion and seemed to absorb some crazy energy coming off of Dead!Clark.

Spoiler: They did, in fact, absorb that crazy energy.

So that’s how we get to SUPERWOMAN, which everyone thought would be a Lois book but it turned out to be a Lana book and I don’t wanna really get into the crazy plot stuff, so all you need to know is this: Nu52 Lois is dead, Lana has superpowers, but they’re killing her. Also, she’s dating Steel. And Lena Luthor went off the deep end in a HUGE WAY. Like. Bald, disembodied head being kept in the basement of Lexcorp way.

Over in Action Comics, Lex is running around wearing the ‘S’ shield because of course Lex would decide to become Superman once Superman died. Also running around in Action Comics is our good friend Pre-Flashpoint Clark, who fights Doomsday for a hot second?

(Confused yet?)

And ALSO ALSO running around in Action Comics is a THIRD Clark Kent! A seemingly a totally human Clark Kent! For a long time, he was an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, or however that quote goes...

Well, now we know that this third Clark is Mr. Mxysptly...Myx...the little imp guy in the purple hat.

There was like this whole...thing. Where he was captured and he thought Clark would save him but he DIDN’T so to escape, Mxy had to basically mind-wipe himself and make himself believe he was really Clark Kent (and this kinda helped a little bit with that secret identity snafu the nu52 Clark had going on...) but now he remembers that he’s NOT Clark Kent and that Clark Kent didn’t save him so basically he’s OUT FOR REVEEEEEENGE.

But IN THE MEANTIME, Superman (the comic, not the guy) is focusing on this pre-Flashpoint Clark/Lois/Jon family. These guys don’t go by ‘the Kents’ BTW. Because when Clark and Lois and Jon arrived in this universe, there was ALREADY a Clark Kent so. They are the SMITHS.

Also, Krypto is alive and well. Thank goodness. 

Jon sometimes hangs out with Damian Wayne in Supersons. When Damian isn’t leading the Teen Titans, that is.

Supergirl is blessedly free of all of these intersecting story lines. She’s off on her own, fighting her robot dad. And also rehabilitating Kryptonian Werewolves. NBD.

THE BATFAM

I am. Sooooo behind on most of the Batbooks, ngl. All I know is that Detective Comics is leaning in to the actual ‘Fam’ part of ‘Batfam.’ The gang’s all here: Dick, Tim*, Harper, Cass, Steph**, Kate, Clayface for some reason, Duke...and oh, right, Bruce.

*Tim is presumed dead but ACTUALLY, he’s been abducted by the ominous figure pulling all of the strings surrounding Rebirth and he’s probably a Watchman dude? The guy pulling the strings I mean. This all appears to be leading up to merging the Watchmen universe w/ the DC universe.

**Steph is having a hard time right now, my poor child. She’s frustrated with Bruce (but then, who isn’t) and honestly she just needs a hug, okay?

So then we have Batgirl. Babs spent some time in Asia, but now she’s back in Burnside fighting gentrification dating the Penguin’s son getting a degree in library science.

You know. When she’s not paling around with Black Canary and Huntress in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey.

WONDER WOMAN

...I only started reading the new arc for Bilquis Evely’s art. I know, I know, I am a horrible person.

GREEN LANTERNS

Jessica’s anxious and Baz needs to calm down a little but otherwise they are doing an okay job at fighting off intergalactic threats. Also something about cooking?  

THE FLASH

IDK man I’m bitter about what went down with Meena. 

(Ugh, okay, now I have to talk about it: So, apparently, Barry was not dating Iris. He was BRIEFLY dating this woman named Meena. And how he met Meena? Well, some bad guys messing with the Speed Force manage to grant random citizens w/ speed powers. So there was a bunch of speedsters and Meena, a doctor at Star Labs, was one of them. She became Fast Track, and helped Flash, but ultimately bit the dust because we can’t have nice things. 

And neither can Barry, apparently. You know.

Because DEATH.

Because COMICS.

...Also Barry’s partner got powers and became the supervillain Godspeed.)

EARTH TWO SOCIETY

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA

Bruce is putting together a team of superheroes because people are afraid of the Justice League proper...because they’re viewed as ‘Gods’ or whatever? 

(But I mean. Bruce gets a woman who can magically take on the attributes of animals, a giant space bounty hunter, a woman who steals heat/energy from people by touching them, a guy who can shrink, a guy who glows, and Black Canary so. I mean. They’re kinda scary too?)

...

Okay, I think...I think that’s it. Those are the titles I’m either caught up on, or that I at least started/tried out. There are a few books that I’m waiting on the trades, so I have NO CLUE what is happening w/ them right now. (New Super-Man, all of the Bat books, Green Arrow. Trinity.) 

I hope this kind of helped. And I apologize if it only made the confusion worse. 

BUT WHAT ARE COMICS WITHOUT CONSTANT CONFUSION?

[spite-and-waffles]

This is an incredible essay OP. I only know Dick and Slade's relationship from his time as Renegade in the Nightwing series, which I have mostly (perhaps blessedly) forgotten. That entire trauma conga line was really hard to take after a while. Nuking Bludhaven was the lowest point of the Pre-52 for me, surpassed only by the destroying of Star City (with Lian in it).

Your meta brought all the memories back and you're 100% right. Nobody touched all of Dick's trauma with a ten foot barge pole after OYL, probably realizing they went too hard on that arc and wanting a clean slate, but that stuck us with all this unaddressed baggage.

Honestly one of the reasons I disliked Slade around Identity Crisis was because he'd turned from a Titans antagonist into a Villain Sue that could best the entire Justice League, which made for bad storytelling and erased the complexity of character I had glimpsed from his earlier interactions with Dick. I've read about the iconic storylines in New Teen Titans but I really need to read it for myself to understand Dick better. It sounds like he was better written by Marv Wolfman than at any point in his own ongoing title after Dixon left. Devin Grayson wrote him for so long that her run can't be ignored the way we shrug off Marc Andreyko and Bruce Jones, but I don't know to what extent she flanderized Dick's character. It's that reductivism that I see reflected a lot in fanfic tbh.

I think a lot of the other problems you spoke is down to fandom's fascination with the potential pederastic homoeroticism between Slade and Dick, which they also project into Dick and Bruce. I'm not one to kinkshame but we do tend to compromise the complexity of canon characterization to get our rocks off. I think fans revel in the problematic elements inherent in a relationship of any sort between them, which is again fine, no shaming, but the degree of distortion in fandom tends to go off the scale. Not to mention the extremely problematic feminisation of Dick Grayson in fic and the misogynistic elements that always follow.

For a demographic that thrives on hurt/comfort, fandom is really, really bad at honestly addressing and giving due weight to characters' canonical trauma.

Could you please go more in-depth about Dick and Slade’s relationship? Your top ten facts post about Nightwing was really insightful and the first time I heard about their relationship that wasn’t a mentor-student thing. I’ve been trying to find more stuff about it on my own but as mentioned before it’s really hard to find things about their dynamic without it getting muddled with the teacher-student idea. Thank you!

Yeah, sure! Like, it really, really, really can not be stressed enough, what a disservice fandom has done to the complexity of Dick and Slade’s canon comic book relationship, by simply reducing it to your fairly standard hero/villain trope. As well as making it just a master/apprentice dynamic like in Teen Titans. Their comic book dynamic is just not remotely interchangeable with that one. At all.

Among other things in the comics, in all of their encounters, Slade’s very presence is a constant living, breathing reminder of three of the outright worst moments in Dick’s life, and a walking embodiment of some of his biggest issues, all rolled up in one package.

1) Slade’s entrance to Dick’s life is the accompaniment to one of the greatest betrayals Dick has ever experienced. In order to get revenge for the death of his son, Grant, that he wrongly blamed the Titans for, Slade enlisted Tara Markov as his accomplice BEFORE any of the Titans ever met her. When her ultimate allegiances were revealed in the Judas Contract, and she singlehandedly took down and captured practically every Titan except for Dick, who escaped Slade when the latter saved him for himself....Dick, along with the other Titans, had to reconcile the fact that this woman they’d called their teammate, their friend, that they’d shared so much with, told so much to...had never been one of them.

Not really. She’d been plotting their betrayal and deaths from the literal first moment they ever met her. With Dick having to shoulder the additional burden that like...he was the team leader. He was the one who ultimately was responsible for approving her addition to the team, who made the decision, who vouched for her and said okay. I am giving you my trust, and by extension, telling everyone of my teammates who puts their trust in me to do right by them, that it is safe for them to trust you as well. Whether or not Dick needed to heft that much responsibility for Terra turning out to be a traitor is really not the point in this specific instance. All that matters is that he did.

Now, as an example....how many fics that touch on Slade and Dick’s relationship in comic book settings in any capacity....how many of them offhandedly reference the fact that Slade is unique among many villains or enemies of the Justice League, Titans and Batfamily, in that he knows Dick’s secret identity...and by extension, has long since figured out those of every other member of the Batfamily?

Now with that in mind.....how many of those fics ever do anything with the fact that....Slade only HAS this knowledge in the first place....because TERRA told him Dick’s secret identity way back when....after Dick trusted HER, his teammate and Slade’s secret plant from day one....with his identity and by extension, Bruce’s as well, and Jason’s, and every other member of their family who was later added in the future?

Like, it isn’t just something where Slade figured it out on his own, or Dick told him....this highly crucial, critical and rare information that Slade has when few others have it, even other heroes....Dick never voluntarily gave to him. Its stolen goods, effectively, with Slade only having gotten it by virtue of Dick’s mislaid trust in someone else entirely.

My point being.....we talk a lot in fandom about how Dick is so trusting, but the reality is....even while Dick does make a point to give people the benefit of the doubt and extend his trust at times to people with not so great reputations....this is a willful, deliberate choice on his part, a conscious effort, and not evidence of Dick having an easy time trusting people or being naive.

The reality is, Dick has massive trust issues, born in large part of the fact that his team once all almost died because he put his trust in the wrong person.....and SLADE IS QUITE LITERALLY THE FACE AT THE ROOT OF MOST OF DICK’S CANON TRUST ISSUES.

(It also needs to be acknowledged that this was while the team was very much the TEEN Titans, and Slade’s earliest appearances absolutely made not at all veiled inferences that Slade seduced Terra and used a sexual and/or romantic relationship to manipulate her and get her allegiance in the first place. When she was very much a teen herself. She was a victim as well, and Slade predatory in his interactions with her. It was statutory rape every bit as much as Liu with Dick. Like.....it is what it is guys, and you might not want to go with that take for him yourself, but no different from when people choose to focus on instances of Bruce’s abuse, you can’t get upset at people who DO want to acknowledge this aspect of things and be like....fuck any kind of Slade redemption or Slade positivity.)

2) Slade also happens to represent one of the single worst moments of Dick’s life, and what he’s often regarded as one of his greatest personal failures.....and that’s Joey’s death. Joey was possessed by the evil spirits left over from Raven’s home dimension after the team finally banished Trigon for good, with his own possession powers having made him particularly vulnerable to them possessing him en masse, and they over time took more and more control of him until he was effectively just a helpless passenger in his own body for a period of months, maybe even longer than a year.

While these spirits went about using his body to infiltrate and then hijack control of The Wildebeest Society, a group made up of former Titans foes for the express purpose of defeating the Titans.....and then as leader of the Wildebeest Society....having them systematically hunt down every Titan to ever exist, past or present, murdering many of them and capturing most of their superpowered members for the intended use of their bodies as hosts for the spirits sharing Joey’s body.

Now, not only is this a pretty direct parallel to Dick’s own experience being a brainwashed mole of the Church of Blood for over a year, secretly working to undermine his own teammates without any conscious control or even awareness of his own actions there, and with none of his teammates any the wiser, just as Dick himself hadn’t suspected anything wrong with Joey leading up to this reveal....

But after the Wildebeest Society had successfully either captured or killed every other Titan, Dick infiltrated their headquarters in disguise, in an attempt to free his teammates....only to be be caught and imprisoned by ‘Joey.’ With the latter then revealing the truth of why he was acting like this....and then continuing to keep Dick as his prisoner, chained up right by his side and tortured and helpless for over a week, as he and his minions continued with the rest of their work in preparing the carefully drugged/comatose Titans to be the spirits’ new hosts.

Let me reiterate....for over a week, Dick was the prisoner of evil spirits parading around in the body of one of his closest friends - the literal first person Dick chose to place his trust in again after it was first broken by Terra’s betrayal in the first place - while these spirits, did all of this in front of him with Joey’s face and body....gloating, taunting him, trying in every way imaginable to break him and his spirit. The whole time callously speaking of their intentions for the rest of Dick’s closest friends and their bodies, as they went about the final steps of their plan to basically use Dick and his team as the very tools they used to destroy everything they’d ever worked to protect and save.

Dick was only able to stop this and wake up the rest of his team...with Slade’s help, when the latter came in search of Joey himself. And at the end of it all, Joey was able to retake control of himself long enough to beg his father to kill him, before the spirits were able to overpower him again and use him to fulfill the rest of their plans.

Right in front of Dick.

Dick of course had spent the entire time he was a prisoner, trying his best to get through to Joey, believing with all his heart that Joey was in there still and could be saved, and of course, blaming himself for not seeing that something was wrong with Joey and stopping all of this sooner.

And then and there, Dick saw Joey resurface just as Slade did.....but while Dick saw this as proof that Joey was still there, could still be saved, they shouldn’t give up on him....Slade believed that doing the right thing then and there meant honoring Joey’s wishes for one of the first times ever in his life....even though that ultimately meant....also running Joey through with his sword. Again.....with Dick right there, still powerless to do anything to get up and help Joey, stop Slade, or propose another plan of action. He watched one of his best and dearest friends killed by his own father, because...in Dick’s own eyes....he’d failed to come up with an alternative in all the time he was prisoner....and failed to stop things from getting to that point in all the time before that, while Joey was possessed.

My point being....in the comic books, whether Dick and Slade are currently on good terms, bad terms, or neutral terms....they always exist for each other as a constant reminder of the death of one of the most important people in their lives. With that death being something they each blame themselves for and consider one of their greatest failures...as well as that death also being something they each at times have blamed each other for, for failing to come up with a way to save Joey, or protect him before he got to that point.

3) And finally, the third item of importance that I’m gonna gloss over for now as its more directly relevant to a post I wanna make about this later.....Slade’s direct involvement in the destruction of Bludhaven literally can’t be stressed enough. Whether you deem it in character or think he was written largely out of character at the time, with a case to be made for either stance, I think, the point remains that if you’re referencing Bludhaven having been destroyed at all, to any degree....Slade is once again at the heart of that matter, integral to every step of how that ultimately played out....with his position as the Society’s point man on that operation and his own personal grudge with Dick over various things, as well as Dick’s training of his daughter Rose - at Slade’s own insistence, but in ways Slade wasn’t pleased with, since Dick helped cultivate Rose’s actual heroic inclinations and instincts, which Slade did NOT sign off on - like, these things were directly step by step the path towards the Society ultimately following through and dropping Chemo on Bludhaven. With like, that being something that Slade absolutely could have stopped, thanks to his position, and even promised Dick as part of the agreement they made, that he WOULD keep from happening....only to renege on his word there.

In conclusion, Dick and Slade’s relationship and dynamic is SO SO SO SO SO MUCH MORE complex and varied than its basically ever made out to be in fanfics, and stems in large part from this one specific little tidbit that hardly ever seems to make it into fics’ final cuts.....

Slade respects Dick. Even when he doesn’t like him.

And I know, I know that fics pay a lot of lip service to this idea, but for the most part, its not substantiated. Or its clarified as though Slade respects Dick’s potential, or what he could be with Slade’s help or instruction....but that’s literally not the point of their canon.

The point is despite Dick being decades younger, Slade respects Dick as an opponent. As someone who has beaten him, bested him, in various ways and at various points. As well as respecting Dick as being a person who Slade’s son respected, and trusted, and valued a great deal. With a lot of Slade’s own memories of his son transferred onto Dick at times as a proxy, with Dick essentially acting as a stand-in for the son that Slade regrets never taking the time to get to know better...and here’s Dick, who knew and understood Joey better than just about anyone, certainly better than Slade. Which I personally believe Slade resents and even hates Dick for, for being someone that Joey both trusted and loved when Slade knows that likely wasn’t true of Joey’s view of him.....but I believe its also why Slade has never been able to bring himself to actually try and kill Dick and be rid of his threat to his plans for good....because doing so would be like killing the last real link Slade sees to the son he himself killed by his own hand.

Dick Grayson, for Slade....also happens to be the man who had every reason to not want anything to do with anyone associated with Slade, after Terra broke his trust, because of Slade’s own machinations.....while at the same time...Dick Grayson and his willingness to still extend that trust to Slade’s own son not long after that....are the very reasons that Joey ever had the opportunity to be the hero that Joey had always wanted to be....and that people ultimately remembered him as. There’s a reason Slade wanted Dick to be the one to train his daughter, after all - with the reason he was pissed at Dick for it ultimately being that Dick ended up being better at it than Slade had hoped, and Rose ultimately siding with Dick instead of Slade herself.

And even more importantly, IMO, Slade - even at times when he resents Dick for it at the exact same time - respects Dick for the choices Dick makes. For the precise fact that they aren’t the choices that Slade himself would make, that they’re choices Slade often thinks he couldn’t make.

He doesn’t disdain Dick for his choices or priorities or look down on him for them. Dismiss him because of them. They’re the heart and soul of WHY Slade respects Dick....and the fact that even with those extremely different priorities that Slade often doesn’t agree with...Dick STILL manages to come out the winner in a lot of encounters.

So this Slade Wilson who grudgingly admits that Dick Grayson has potential, but that its stunted and wasted without his own training, and because of the ‘weak, ill-advised’ choices that Dick makes and the things Dick prioritizes.....

Like, that has as little to do with actual canon pre-Flashpoint Slade, as the actual canon pre-Flashpoint Dick has to do with the depiction of him in many of these fics. Where Dick feels hopelessly outmatched and inadequate next to Slade or when facing him, like, he desperately starts praying the second Slade enters the fight cuz that’s the only way he’ll survive....or else he feels naive and dumb, or thinks how foolish he must look to Slade, or how raw or untrained or novice.....not to mention the times he’s focused on viewing Slade as a reflection of Bruce in various ways, or his dynamic with Slade as having anything to do with his dynamic with Bruce.

Again...umm, what? No. That’s not how Dick has ever been shown viewing their relationship either. The times he’s in conflict with Slade, he’s not questioning himself or second-guessing his abilities or praying he survives - he’s usually just PISSED, because of whatever thing has brought him into conflict with Slade this time. And not in that fanfic way where he’s unreasonable or irrational because of his anger and it clouds his judgment...in the way where he uses his anger to hone and focus his skills and just keep him going no matter how many hits he takes. Slade is an opponent whose skills Dick absolutely knows better than anyone else, and by extension respects those skills absolutely - but he is at the same time an opponent Dick has faced many times before, AND WALKED AWAY FROM EVERY TIME.

No, Dick doesn’t take his victory or even his survival against Slade for granted, but he’s not remotely fear-stricken or rendered inadequate by the possibility of failure....he knows that there are no guarantees of success, but by the same token, he’s equally aware that Slade’s reputation is no guarantee of his own failure....with his own track record with the man being proof of that.

And at the same time....when they’re not directly in conflict....Dick does not feel invalidated or naive or dumb when around Slade, because of their age difference. He isn’t suddenly rendered like he feels like he’s a little kid sitting with a grown up. He’s usually just tired. He has as little illusions about Slade as Slade has about him. Dick KNOWS better than ANYONE, just how much Slade doubts and second-guesses his OWN choices, regrets his OWN priorities and decisions at times. So by extension...Dick doesn’t take their encounters OR Slade’s opinion as reason to feel inadequate or second-guess himself? He knows damn well that Slade has a higher opinion of choices that Dick himself even regrets making, than Slade does some of his own decisions.

There’s not this.....gap between them experience wise, not in the sense that Dick can remotely compare to Slade’s much vaster library of life experiences, but rather in the sense that like.....Dick doesn’t care, you know? That’s not the point. Dick’s never comparing himself or his decisions to Slade’s with a measuring stick any time they encounter each other, because each encounter they have is so vastly more weighted by what they both represent to each other, their shared tragedies and personal failures and regrets, and their mutual awareness of these things and what they embody for each other. Dick - just like Slade himself is - is usually too preoccupied being focused on every thing that being around the other brings up for him....to have any mental energy left over for all this other stuff.

Comic book Dick and Slade, for each other, just carry too much knowledge of the life experiences they both have in common, because of their past interactions and shared connections.

Anyway, I will do another post soon about the comic book Renegade arc in particular, because its SO much more interesting than just the ‘Dick was Slade’s student or apprentice’ facsimile that I think people assume it to be. Like, Dick didn’t go to him as a supplicant, and Slade didn’t for a second think he was actually turning traitor. Slade asked him to train Rose in exchange for Slade’s help with his own plans, in part because Slade RESPECTS Dick’s skills as a trainer of heroes, not seeks him as a student for himself....but ALSO as a kind of manipulation - personally, I think he was hoping to use Dick’s inevitable concern and compassion for Rose as a buffer to keep Dick from betraying Slade or tripping him up when he tried.....and of course Dick actually ended up getting ROSE to turn on Slade instead?

But at the same time, its not one sided at all, because there was a particularly clever bit about how Dick faced off against Superman as Renegade, and tried to use his heartbeat to send Clark the message that he wasn’t actually betraying the heroes and not to listen to the words he was saying, but the fact that his heartbeat showed that he was lying....except Slade had ANTICIPATED this, and had rigged the glove of Dick’s Renegade costume ahead of time to be like, wirelessly linked to a remote he had as he watched Dick and Clark’s interactions through the video feed on Dick’s mask.....and Slade used this remote to send wireless signals through Dick’s glove that matched the sound of Dick’s heartbeat and in essence let Slade alter the rhythm of what Clark thought was Dick’s heartbeat....but was actually just Slade literally clicking buttons.

So Dick was getting more and more confused about why even though he was saying all this stuff about being too jaded by the League’s failures and done with heroism, like, why was Clark actually BELIEVING him instead of realizing he was clearly lying from the sound of his heart....and Clark was actively getting more and more upset as he talked and actually trying to FIGHT him and Dick eventually had to flee with Clark actually like.....furious with him, and Dick had no idea why. With this, I think, being one of the things Dick actually full on HATES Slade for the most (and I think what directly motivated Dick getting Rose to turn on her father) - like, Clark has been Dick’s number one support and fan from day one, even when Bruce wasn’t at times. He’s the one person who has pretty much ALWAYS believed in Dick no matter what.

And Slade managed to take that away. To get Clark to literally look at Dick as the enemy. To not believe him, believe in him. Like. That’s something I don’t think Dick has ever forgiven Slade for or ever will.

So yeah. There’s so much more to Dick and Slade’s dynamic than fics represent, and I wish people delved more into this other stuff, because its so much more INTERESTING in my opinion than just like, your usual ‘older supervillain toys with younger outmatched superhero’ or master and apprentice stuff, etc.