#spideytorch meta

[incorrect-spideytorch]

So, I’ve been thinking a lot about spideytorch lately (as I am one to do) and a question popped into my head:

What is the most important spideytorch comic panel?

There’s a ton of great options in my opinion, but I think there also is an answer (at least for me) so now I am going to subject all of you to my thought process. Get ready for a way to long post breaking this down.

The most obvious starting point has to be this classic

Johnny Storm is going full house husband for Peter Parker, I mean c’mon! add in the fact that he’s in his undies and the way that he’s leaning over peter… yeah this is a classic. This might be the most famous spideytorch panel out there, but I don’t think it’s the most important one.

Another classic (but more antagonistic?) one takes place, of course, at the usual place.

To me this is peak identity shenanigans and the stuff that fanfics are made of. The betrayal, the heartbreak, the complications that go into the conflicting way these two view identity, oh boy I could talk about that shit for hours, but as an individual moment, it doesn’t really crack most important for me, it needs a bit more affection (they’re very bad at affection sometimes).

Another panel that came to mind very quickly for me is this set.

Johnny literally only had to say his name and Peter knew exactly what he meant and what he needed. This is top tier levels of communication, both between them and from the creators to us. I think this is another one that I could talk about for hours. That being said, it doesn’t feel important enough to me.

A friend in the spideytorch discord server posed this panel as the most important spideytorch moment in the comics.

I’m just gonna put their quote in cause it’s great. “I think this is one of my favorite panels cause Johnny was just speaking generally and Peter was like ‘oh my god! Actual wise words form johnny’ but also, I love that this was a more important moment for Peter than Johnny.” I must say, this entry is extremely important to spideytorch and gave my choice a run for its money. I don’t have a huge reason for not making this one the most important, other than personal taste. For their relationship, this is a key moment and sets them on the path to actually being friends (at least on Peter’s end), but idk it just wasn’t doing it for me.

Another panel I was reminded of thanks to this submission was this moment.

It’s not quite as impactful as the past one by a long shot but I do think it’s important. After being rivals for so long, to see Johnny give a genuine heartfelt compliment to Peter is fantastic (haha). This feels like the other half of the previous set of panels. There we had Johnny encouraging a stranger and here he’s encouraging his friend.

Some other friends in the discord server suggested the moment that Johnny invites Peter over to watch his sex tape (yes this is canon).

(Not pictured, Peter swinging away and saying he needs to take a cold shower). Now I’m not saying that the most important spideytorch moment needs to be serious, but I think this moment might be too unserious to claim that title. This moment was huge for the fanbase because holy shit did, he actually say that, but for their relationship, I just don’t think it was as important as it was to us.

Now I do want to knock out a few honorable mentions that I would hate to miss.

First, this look given to Spidey by Johnny, I mean yeah, he’s in love.

And to balance the lovesick flirty scales I must expose Peter as well.

Next, this heartbreaking moment that basically admits to the audience that Peter’s world becomes chaos when he loses Johnny. That shit hits.

Of course, the moment that gave us the ship name.

A panel that lives in my head rent-free because honestly marvel what were you attempting to convey here other than the fact that Peter really wants to have hate sex with Johnny Storm?

To take us outside of our duo, this quote from Ben Grimm (EDIT: it’s was Peter’s clone Ben Reilly, which honestly only adds more drama), because honestly same.

And of course, I have to include the panel which showed us the first time (on page) that Peter told Johnny he loved him AND gave us canon proof that these two have “date night,” many a fic writer was fed well.

And how could we forget! THE USUAL PLACE! Literally any panel mentioning this is top tier because its so good, like the core of the fandom honestly.

Lastly, before moving on to my own more serious contenders I have to share this parallel that @sciderman shared because I love it.

Now to my serious contenders for the title of most important spideytorch panel (please remember this is all my opinion and I mean no shade). This will be a top 5, but just know some of these rankings are pretty flexible (even flexible with some panels from the beginning), and this question should not be taken as seriously as I am taking it, I am fully aware of that.

Number 5!

So, I know that I discounted the sex tape scene earlier because I didn’t think it was serious enough and it didn’t do enough for their actual relationship, but I had to include this one I’m sorry. A lot of this is personal taste but the implications here are *chefs kiss* The first time I saw this panel was actually on Pinterest with the caption “wait a second, did spider-man and the human torch have sex?” which says it all for me.

Beyond that, this moment also shows how they reach out to each other when they have problems. Strange children show up in Peter’s life and the first person he calls about it is Johnny. Again, this is not the most serious, but I love it. This moment shows the banter of their relationship, how they care about and rely on each other, and also potentially reveals that they’ve had sex. There’s a lot to take in.

Number 4!

I will be honest with you all, this moment is here almost entirely because Ben’s quote lives in my head rent-free. Everyone around them sees how they feel about each other besides them. When they were rivals others could tell they actually liked each other and when they became friends others could tell that it was deeper than that. I think I especially love this panel because it conforms that we’re not crazy for thinking there’s something there but also because Ben specifically cites the way Johnny looks at peter. That is very specific and says a lot. I can’t imagine Ben would say this if the looks Johnny gave Peter were purely platonic, and just ahhhh, there’s so much said here just in one line from Ben. There was of course the Ben moment earlier, which I also love, but something about this one, the more specific phrasing of it I think just shoots it up my rankings a lot.

Number 3!

If you’ve been following me for a while I don’t think this is a surprise at all, I have already done a very in depth post about this panel so I’ll keep my thoughts brief. Red Skull knows that hurting Johnny will hurt Peter, Peter’s Spidey senses go off FOR JOHNNY, and we are given so much angst potential, I love it.

Number 2!

This one is probably a more popular choice than my number one, and I totally get it. The excitement and joy bursting out of Peter when he finally realizes that Johnny is here, he’s real, and he’s alive really gets me. Plus, the added context to the uniform comment being that Johnny literally left Peter his family and his spot on the team in his will. The amount of pure love in this moment and its larger context is abundant, platonic or romantic, it’s there. I feel like everything I could say about this panel has probably been said before, but it is definitely worthy of being the most important spideytorch moment, even if I have one that beats it for me.

Number 1!

For those of you who don’t know, this panel comes from Peter visiting Gwen’s grave and talking to her. That fact alone breaks me in half but then the things he says to her shatter me. Every spider-man fan knows how much Gwen’s death broke Peter, it destroyed him to lose her. Just the fact that Peter admits Johnny brings part of him back is amazing (haha) because that is a hug feat. But then he shatters me even more with his final sentences. After Gwen’s death, we often get a peter who spends too much time as Spidey in order to avoid having to cope with Gwen’s death as Peter, but also as a way to cope with the loss (he’s a complicate man). Spideypool also gets a lot from that arc because of Wade’s reaction to Spider-Man not holding back as much and becoming less of a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, and that’s true. The fact that Peter feels like he’s becoming who Spidey is supposed to be again when he’s around johnny is huge! But then! He corrects himself. He’s not Spidey again, he’s Peter. The real person, the man behind the mask, comes back. And then you get the final correction. He’s not just peter again, he’s *Gwen’s* peter again. He is the him that existed with Gwen when he’s with Johnny. That speaks volumes and breaks whatever parts of me are left. How am I expected to read this and not think that Johnny and Peter are soulmates?

Now, I will acknowledge that this is much more of a peter moment than a joint spideytorch moment, much like the moment suggested by discord friend earlier. If that disqualifies it for you as the most important spideytorch panel, I get it. However, for me that doesn’t matter mainly for one key reason. So many classic spideytorch moments show a lot of Johnny having feelings for Peter or making a move on Peter. There have been a lot of times when I’m trying to get a friend into spideytorch, and I feel like I have to clarify that its not as one sided as it seems. Johnny is much more out there with who he is and doesn’t hide his feelings very well (except maybe from himself). So, when we get any spideytorch moment that hones in on peter’s feelings and love for Johnny, that feels so huge to me. This moment alone proves that it isn’t one sided, Peter has deep feelings for Johnny, even if he’s not sure what they are yet, he knows that what they have is special, he wouldn’t be telling Gwen about it otherwise. While it may not be as famous of a spideytorch moment, its an important one, and for me it’s probably the most important one.

Anyway, this has been a way too long post about this topic but if you made it to the end thank you so much! I would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this topic so feel free to share those. Also, just a reminder that these are my opinions, and I am not in charge at all so don’t take it too seriously (unless you want to).

If you’re interested in hearing me, go more in depth on any of these panels (or any other spideytorch panels) shoot me an ask because I could honestly talk in depth for a while about most of these panels and I would love to do so. Thank you again for reading this way to long post and good night spideytorch nation.

[dottie-wan-kenobi]

earlier I saw a tiktok saying that spideytorch is queerbaiting... the word you are actually looking for is "queer subtext" or even "queer coded"

queerbaiting is a marketing technique. it is meant to sell something. it tells the audience that MAYBE there can be canon queerness IF the audience keeps watching/buys something/votes for them/does some other action

queer coding is giving a character queer traits/storylines/moments to a character whose sexuality is not clearly stated. it's part of the story and especially back when the hays code and CCA ruled everything, characters could not be explicitly queer

(please note these restrictions from the CCA in 1954, just before Johnny and Peter were created in the early 1960s:

- Illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Rape scenes, as well as sexual abnormalities, are unacceptable. - Sex perversion or any inference to same is strictly forbidden.

don't forget, according to the standards of the time, 'sex perversion' included queerness)

and so from the beginning, neither character could be explicitly anything other than straight. but as individuals, they both have queer subtext

I can't list everything but: Peter joking about having a chance with Luke Cage, saying he dated Moon Knight 'a little bit', his whole dynamic with Deadpool, constantly calling other men terms of endearment, his close relationships with other men... this is not queer baiting. this is queer coding. whether marvel is doing it as a form of humor or not, they're not trying to sell you something -- Peter is just a funny guy who likes to flirt with his enemies and act like he's married to all of his friends

(shout out to Andrew Garfield, the #1 biderman defender. in a better life we got genderbent MJ and Andrew didn't get fired)

as for Johnny, he has so much queer subtext I don't even know where to start. he is "flaming". every relationship he's had with a woman has failed. he has an obvious crush on namor. he's very similar to Bobby Drake, who is canonically gay. someone who wrote a story with Johnny and Daken confirmed they included sexual tension between them. there are elseworlds where he is literally canonically queer. plus there's a theory that Johnny was supposed to come out in a somewhat-recent comic but that marvel chickened out at the last second

(please go read @traincat's post on Johnny being queer coded, top 5 post of all time. also their post on that potential coming out)

I won't say there's absolutely no evidence for queerbaiting because I haven't read every comic, I haven't seen how authors all about the characters, but simply put the existence of queer moments like this are not proof on their own of queerbaiting. ultimately, these are different things. they are not interchangable. queer subtext is not a bad thing and I wish people would remember what queer baiting really is

rant over

[bunsofhoney]

I think I'm going to make my own prompt list for Smutcember. Or maybe Smutuary.

Anyway send me an ask with your smut prompts because I don't have 30 yet. A word, phrase, or kink.

It's going to be another multi-shipping spectacular (with lots of short drabbles)

[traincat]

ive never played the games so i dont know what to picture when im reading your fics, how tall do you think soren and ike are?

I said recently that they have a Mulder and Scully level height difference and I stand by that statement. This one is a little hard to answer, because I don't think there is a definitive answer -- it's not like comics where there's an official handbook with heights and weights listed, although there is like, a vague equivalent. I'll get to that. I know recently some people deduced heights by, I think, converting the measurements of their respective models in Fire Emblem Engage, the anniversary game for the series that featured both characters, but I'll be honest, that's too much math for me, and I'd rather rip into the text of the original games until I come up with my own answer. So I'm gonna give you my thoughts, and the canon evidence that backs them up, but it's just my opinion.

Anyway I'm going into this with the same amount of thought that I go into with all my comics meta. I'm sorry about that in advance.

So two things about Fire Emblem 9 and 10. The first is that the games aren't new -- FE9 came out in 2005, and FE10 in 2007. Graphically, they hold up well, but it's because they're not very complicated. The majority of conversations take place involving still portraits with text underneath -- there's only a few fully animated cutscenes. (Soren is in exactly one FE10 cutscene, and they're not standing next to each other.) The second is that the games take place over a period of a few years (each game takes place over about a year, with a three year gap in between FE9 and FE10). Ike starts FE9 at 17, and he's about 20 at the start of FE10. And he evolves like a Pokemon.

This is not meant to be to height scale; I just wanted these three pieces of official art next to each other for comparison. Graphic design is not my passion.

Also, this has nothing to do with height, but I'm going to point it out anyway: Ike's FE10 artbook page literally ends by talking about how he's in love with Soren.

(credit to Kantopia for the translation.) (did I mention that, by FE rules, the ship is canon. because it's canon.) The character designer, Kita Senri, also drew this picture of FE9 and FE10 Ike standing back to back, which. Yeah. Okay!

By FE10, at least, so by age 20, Ike is tall. (His parents come from the Tall People Country, Daein.) His size is remarked upon a couple of times in the script, too, by people who hadn't seen him for a few years:

Ike: Tormod, it's been a while. Tormod: Holy moly! You are absolutely huge! I feel puny next to you… Ike: That's because you are puny. Magic clearly doesn't give you much muscle tone. (...) Tormod: Nah, you just can't see me properly because all of your blood gets pumped to your muscles, away from your brain! [leaves] Ike: A little touchy, Tormod?

(FE10, Part 4 Chapter 4)

Volke: You’ve grown quite a bit since the last time I saw you. Ike: Everyone loves telling me that. Volke: You’re starting to look like Greil. Ike: That might be true, too. He IS my dad.

(FE10, Part 4 Endgame-1) It should be noted that Ike's dad, Greil, was pretty huge.

Engage also has it remarked upon, with one character saying that Emblems (essentially FE main character force ghosts in-game) are big, and Ike remarking that that's not an Emblem thing, he's just huge. (He's the funniest Fire Emblem main character except for his co-star, Micaiah, Little Miss War Crimes, and I'm barely even biased at all.)

There are in-game stats for height and weight (build/constitution and weight, respectively), as they relate to mechanics -- if one character is significantly bigger and heavier than the other, the smaller character can't rescue them or shove them. Weight varies because, for example, if a character is on a horse, the horse factors into the weight, or if they're wearing heavy armor, etc. Build, for me, is the best indicator of general (not exact) height. In FE9, Ike's build and weight start off at 9, which is pretty average, and then 10/11 upon class promotion. In FE10, his build is 12 and weight is 13, which is on the bigger side -- I'd say compared to other human men in the game, but there are a lot of big guys in this game. Again, he's twenty, so he's probably still growing, and everyone is already remarking that he's huge. I'm almost always gonna go with what the text says, and the text in FE10 says he's huge, pretty unequivocally.

Soren... is not huge. Soren is, debatably, pretty tiny.

If we're going to use build/weight as a metric, and I think for these purposes we have to, then Soren is a 6 build and 6 weight to Ike's 12 build and 13 weight. So half Ike's size. Either way, 6 build and 6 weight is small -- the only people who are smaller than him are a handful of the female characters, including the one with literal bird bones. How much this reflects on his actual height is up for debate -- I think when that FE Engage height math was done, it was determined that, based on his model there, he was probably 5'10", which is obviously not that short, but if that's the case he's probably very thin to account for that weight stat. His father and his eldest uncle, if not also his mother, are very tall, so there is that to factor in. Soren is half-dragon and he ages slower than an average human, so there's potential for him to end up quite tall -- but it could take twenty, thirty years. (Soren is 19 in FE9 and 22 in FE10.) It's kind of a big shrug in his case. I don't think he's particularly tall, but I think it's more up for personal interpretation how tall he is, as opposed to Ike where the text is repeatedly shouting "HE'S HUGE!!!" at you. He is, pretty clearly, quite a bit smaller than Ike.

I'm going to wrap up this insane person analysis with this pretty art of Soren which does nothing to suggest anything height-wise. I just like to look at it.

(PS thank you for reading my fic even though you haven't played the games! It always makes me really happy to hear that people like my writing enough to do that. but also I have like, fully conspiracy theoried my way into believing they'll rerelease the games.)

[franollie]

Day 6: Meta (spideytorch au!!!)

Extra stuff about the au that i cooked up under the cut

in this au, cass is taken in by babs when she's 15 just like in canon and babs still plays her role of cool mom figure in cass's life, tedbabs are exes who work together in close relation to the timemasters, and tim is a kid who was studying under ted (like an apprentice or something idk don't think too hard about it). after getting stuck in the time stream, the four's dna scrambled and mutated them into amalgamations of different variations of themselves throughout time. they work as vigilantes and are funded by kord industries (tim became the face of the company after ted faked his death to stay out of the limelight)

steph is functionally just spider-man because she deserves to be spider-man (she keeps web-fluid refills in her thigh straps). backstory wise, she was bitten by a radioactive spider yadda yadda. using her new found powers, she created the persona webspinner and stopped her father, cluemaster. when more villains started popping up all over the city, she took it upon herself to make stopping them her responsibility.

[spideytorchweek]

Spideytorch Week 2023 Begins Tomorrow!!

For more information on the themes head to our blog or read our announcement post Here!

Reminder that we accept all forms of content for Spideytorch Week including: fanfiction, fanart, fanmixes, meta, or any other sort of fanwork centered around Spideytorch.

To participate, just post on the appropriate day and tag #spideytorchweek

For anyone posting fanfiction click the link below to access and add your work to the Spideytorch Week 2023 AO3 collection - Spideytorch Week 2023 AO3 Collection!

[nextstopwonderland]

I made some of these collages a while back to compare the difference between the way way Johnny and Peter have been framed in the comics over the years. Johnny is shown repeatedly being kissed without his consent.

Whereas Peter… is the opposite:

The few consensual Johnny-related kiss scenes that we have seen throughout the years (and they are definitely few and far between for a character that has received the label of “Playboy” — let’s not even get into the fact that he’s been in 3, count ‘em 3, truly serious relationships) can hardly be called steamy; and he is rarely ever shown postcoital — again, odd for a “playboy” — and when he is the tone is never a happy/content one.

And then you’ve got Peter. Sex-positive, happy, frequently shown in pre and post love scenes.

The contrast is impressive and continues to fascinate me, especially when looked at within the framing of Johnny’s queer-coding that has been occurring since the 60s.

[stackthedeck]

the dd fanfic writers slowly fading is SO SAD to watch. like in january i used to refresh the mattfoggy tag on ao3 like 3 times a day and there would be several new fics every time, now there’s only like 1 fic every two days :(

I KNOW RIGHT!! I watched season 1 of Daredevil when it first came out but dropped off between seasons because there were other marvel things I was more interested in but the fact is that the fandom was active for way longer back then! Even though there was a "Daredevil Renaissance" it was incredibly short-lived and it sucks

actually, I've had this rant prepared for a long time so I'm sorry anon but I'm going to take your ask and run with it. So one of the bigger topics of discussion in fan studies is the shelf life of fandoms. Generally speaking, the fandoms that last the longest are serialized works. The best examples are tv shows: star trek, superwholock, x-files, etc. Why is this? the generally accepted answer is that there is a perfect balance of content and no content. You watch the episode and then you think about it for a week until the next one airs and the cycle repeats. You go see a movie, you'll think about it for a week maybe watch it again but eventually, you run out of things to think about. The formula for fandom is frustration+passion, enough time without content is going to increase frustration and diminish passion. This is why Harry Potter still has a thriving fanbase, the books were a series and the movies were a series, there's a lot of passion in the potential and the nostalgia and a fuck ton of frustration. So now that tv is less serialization and more binging, there's way too much content with no time to process it, audiences can find neither frustration nor passion, they simply binge.

okay but Daredevil was originally released as a binging series why did the fandom have such a short shelf life the second time around? Well for one, it's a good show and there was a lot of time between seasons. but two, the original fanbase probably watched marvel movies but they didn't have the mcu mindset yet. The mcu is serialized, it releases things with enough time between to process it but not so much time that you forget it exists, this should be the perfect Petri dish for fandom, right? My working theory is that the mcu is trying to have the best of both worlds with transformative and affirmational fans. There's plenty of merch to collect and trivia to memorize, but there are also lots of character moments and missing scenes to expand on in fic. I mean they even try to queerbait fans, they don't do it well, but they try. The mcu is trying to create the fandom of tv shows and movie franchises and they have, but the fandom model they really should be replicating is comics. Comics fans usually just have their one character or team and then are loosely aware of other things happening in the larger universe for whenever there's a company-wide event (which use to be few and far between but that's a different rant). Because comics are serialized and the big favorite characters were always going to have a book, transformative comic fans were small but consistent. But because the mcu are movie adaptations, they simply can't function like comic fandom. If you're watching the mcu, your fav may show up in a movie for a minute and that'll jump-start the fandom, but it doesn't change the fact that they haven't had a story or development since their last thing.

The mcu is huge, but it is migratory within itself (a largely unique and unstudied phenomenon in fan studies). Mcu fans engage with the mcu like it's a tv show, always waiting for the next episode or season, but because they're really so unconnected, so are the fan works. (this is not a dig at phase 4, this is a dig at the mcu as a whole because it can't tell a complete story like a tv show or film franchise without having one director and a start and an END point. It wants to be a film franchise and a comic book run, but it can't be both.) There's too much content demand of the audience and it's weird that it's all connected. It's weird that I have to watch the iron man movies to understand what's going on in the spider-man movies, that's not how it is in the comics, you just read the spider-man comics and maybe Tony Stark shows up and there will be a little foot note directing you towards the important iron man issues, but you frankly don't need to read them. There's too much content and fans can't possibly be invested in all of it. It's like if you were watching Supernatural and after season 3 we had to watch a prequel about Cas and it's only until two season of that, that Dean gets brought back, you probably wouldn't remember why you cared about Dean in the first place. Like audiences can only reasonably be invested in a team of 3 to 7 heroes, you could maybe push it to 9 or 10, but frankly, 5 is the sweet spot. Having over a dozen heroes that all have dynamics and stories is too much for me as a fan to keep up with and frankly it's too much for directors and writers to keep up with. There's so much happening all the time and there are wildly conflicting tones and fans are expected to not only watch it but remember it!

The Daredevil renaissance was over the minute the thor love and thunder trailer dropped because mcu fans are not behaving like comic book fans—picking and choosing a fav to stick with—but like tv fans. Mcu stans are fans of marvel movies first and their fav second. But like if you're a Daredevil fan—someone who likes gritty street-level heroes that are very grounding in personal drama—I wouldn't recommend high-concept sci-fi like thor or wandavison, I'd maybe tell you to watch falcon and the winter soldier, spy movies are kinda like detective crime thrillers, but there's nothing to keep you engaged with everything at least not in a transformative way. Like this method of producing content is great for people that want to watch movies once or twice and move on, but if you're someone that likes analysis and creation, you going to get burned out fast.

the problem is that there is too much content and not enough at the same time. The release schedule for phases five and six is terrifying, that's way too many movies at once. Even if by some miracle they are all high quality in every aspect, fans will not have enough time to thoughtfully think about it, discuss it, make fan works, and make decide what they want next, etc because the next thing will already be there. Like it's not marvel's job to cultivate a fandom, they want as much money as possible so more projects mean more ticket sales because people aren't seeing these movies twice in theaters. It's a cash cow and a terrible way to make art and it's disrespectful to the comics and all the creatives involved in the project. But hey that's capitalism baby. If you are really taken with a movie or show and you want to make a fan work for it, you'll have to do it fast for people to see it because they're only checking the tag for a week max. On the other hand, there's not enough content. There is a huge Moon Knight fan base and they're probably not going to get more content till phase seven. The show was good, but not cult classic good, no one will be around to watch the next season unless they give Moon Knight a cameo in one of the next movies. But at some point that gimmick is going to get old especially if it's like the Matt Murdock cameo in no way home because like...he didn't do anything, he wasn't important to the plot, there's nothing new to work with here.

like listen, Matt's going to get some more fics once She-Hulk airs and once Echo airs and he gets his own show, and freshmen year happens. Wait a second we're back at the too much content problem. All these projects are happening at the same time people are going to have so much Matt, but unless he's got a compelling story that runs through all those shows and changes him as a character, he's just another set piece no different than the glowing sky beam. All these projects have different writers and directors, mcu matt won't be Netflix matt (like god come on, that "I'm a really good lawyer" line was fun at the moment but when has matt ever said something like that in the show?) Comic fans understand that your fav is going to go do a team-up with another character and it's probably going to be out of character because it's a different author, hell sometimes your fav just has a terrible run and you IGNORE IT. You pick and choose canon with comic fandom especially when you're writing fic and you only want the storylines that respect the character and tell meaningful stories. Mcu fans haven't figured out how to do that because they have to watch everything and like everything or otherwise they've waste years of their life on this franchise. And it's like...yeah you have, these movies are military ads with a CGI coat of paint, but like sometimes a bad movie is just a bad movie and you either write a fix-it fic or you ignore it. Disrespectfully I ignore the entire comic civil war arc because I hate it and it's boring and spits in the face of a lot of growth and characterization (also Nick Fury makes Susan and Johnny Storm go undercover as husband and wife and it's like what the fuck marvel)

and so yeah. Bascially my point is that the mcu is trying to be both a comic franchise and a movie franchise but it is impossible with the constraints of the mediums and they should just commit to making good content even if it means that there's less of it. They need to find a way to assure fans that not everything needs to connect in a big cosmic plan, but it can still connect in a shared universe that feels lived in. Like I don't need Ms. Marvel to team up with Thor and Jessica Jones to fight Galaticus. like just let there be different levels of heroes and fans should just pick their favorite and stick with that. This as much content as fast as possible model may be good for making money in the short term but this will likely exhaust fans, affirmative and transformative alike, and will probably mean an unresponsive fan base in the future and this will result in fewer fans that they have to squeeze more and more money out of with no new fans coming in because you have to watch almost two decades of content (oh wow they're closer to the comic industry than I thought lmao)

yeah these fandoms have an incredibly short shelf life because Marvel doesn't take risks with their storytelling, there is no frustration or passion, only bright colors and flashing lights. Fans don't have time to develop complete thoughts about a work that goes past "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" much less develop their own creative work in response to it. the reason the Daredevil renaissance was so fun was that not only were people discovering this character for the first time, they were going back to old fanworks as well as making their own. Read old fanworks more often, I promise they're still good. That original Daredevil fanbase had lots of content stretched out for a long period of time, they had time to sit with it and think about it and analyze and create about it. But the mcu fanbase does not allow that because there's always the shiny new toy and as a fan creative, it's discouraging knowing that if I just got this fic out a month earlier people would have cared. So you stop posting because suddenly there's no passion, only frustration.

[splendidnothings]

Thoughts on Ultimate Jessica Drew?

I love Ultimate Jessica Drew! My third favorite Peter Parker clone (sorry I am a 616 shill first and foremost). I am weak to all clones because I love the tragedy of it all--

“I’m the broken thing they made out of Peter Parker.” MWAUH👌 delicious

And if I’m being honest, Ultimate Jessica is a vastly superior character to Ultimate Peter all around. I’m not really a fan of Ultimate Peter in characterization/voice and the most interesting thing they did with him was kill him. But Jessica always had a lot of character to her and in a way I got what I’d want in Peter characterization from her (especially later in the Ultimate-verse).

Also, I like how she played off Miles and sort of inhabited a bit of a mentor role which I wish they gave Peter and Miles once Miles became part of 616. 

And although, I don’t think Miles should have been permanently brought into 616 continuity because with the way comics work in-universe and on a meta level he can only really be second-fiddle in 616. It’s unfortunate when he should be THE Spider-Man in his own universe and not relegated to A spider-man in 616. That being said looping back to Jessica Drew she should have been brought to 616 with Miles. She’s an important member of his supporting cast! [ignore this if she has been brought to 616 and I missed it, I haven’t followed Miles Spider-Man for a while] 

Also, I can’t finish an Ultimate Jessica Drew post without pointing out how funny it is that Ultimate Johnny was all about a Peter Parker clone. It’s spideytorch all the way down with that one. 

[brawltogethernow]

i LOVED your spideytorch post, and youve opened my eyes, Johnny Storm is asexual you are so right. what are your thoughts on parksborn?

Wah, thank you. God, maybe if I just keep alluding to it I can sway people without ever actually compiling my case....

Parksborn's here! But you're the third person to request it, so whatever, I'll elaborate. Let's talk about parksborn. This is gonna be entirely stream of consciousness.

So it's Spider-Man, and Peter Parker is the main character and ergo the center of the universe. Everybody else feels like a complete person with their own offscreen story, but they're in this story to orbit him and make him shine brighter and sharper and get lit up in return. Almost everybody is a warped mirror of him. Flash, JJJ, Harry, MJ, and to an extent May are some of his strongest foils because they're aware of this on a meta level and have intense love-hate relationships with it. And Harry is the least equipped to deal with it. Like, structurally.

The way Harry is crafted is that there's a pool with one copy of each character trait in it, and him and Peter have to split them up. So Peter has looks and brains and charisma and a loving home life, and Harry has money and an alive parent who resents him for lacking all those other things and wants to join a son-swapping program. Peter is an innately kind of lousy person with a lot of agency he focuses on trying extremely hard to do good, and Harry is a decent, reliable guy who gets systematically broken down by forces outside of his control until he feels cornered into supervillainy. Sometimes there's the impression that he has a choice in the matter, but when you consider tragedy as a genre and how it navigates people into bad outcomes using their own neutral traits, he really doesn't. He actually makes the choice, repeatedly, to do the best he can, and he always fails. There was only one "usually wins the day" in the bag of traits even though these characters want to be on the same side winning the same day.

Being Harry Osborn is an inescapable hell because Peter Parker exists - out of universe because that's how he's constructed, and in-universe because Harry can't escape the repercussions of his father's feud with Peter and the choices the two of them have made because of it, the way that Norman initiating conflict ropes Peter into perpetuating it. It would be incorrigible for Peter not to oppose Norman, but him doing so doesn't net Harry anything except to turn a pervasive, quiet unhappiness into an explosive one. The game is rigged so that Peter can never balance this harm out. Neither of them can. Nothing can.

This conflict makes Harry's life unbearable. It kills Harry's best friend and his dad and then it takes him down too before he's 30, and he sees it coming the entire time.

So anyway the triumph here is that Harry, with fierce deliberation, loves Peter anyway.

And nobody asked but in the linked response I was mostly thinking about this poem:

[imperiuswrecked]

since I super love your blog and your namor content, I was wondering-- do you know any blogs that are reed-centric? or even just ff-centric!

OMG thank you! Ok so I’m definitely more Doom and Namor but Fantastic Four blogs are around but the ones mainly centered on them I personally love because the people are amazing are:

For amazing metas/comic content:

@traincat (who is the resident FF and Spider-Man expert, their SpideyTorch fics are so worth reading)

@doomreed (they know so much about Reed & Doom and you so also check out their fics because *chef kiss*)

@rizahmad (also knows so much about Doom and the Fantastic Four! excellent comic knowledge, check out their wonderful art too: @portwinestains )

For amazing art and wonderful people then check out:

@lanfibio @hyaenes @ecairnsart @doomrichards @janirah

Also I highly rec just checking out the tags for stuff! Hope this helps!

[balancingbookact]

[spideytorchbingo]

I’m interested in joining but what exactly does one in a ‘bingo’?

Okay so

Bingos, at least in my experience, tend to be writing (and sometimes art) events where participants are given a bingo card with 25 prompts. The idea is that the participant will then make content based on these prompts, which in this case can be writing, art, edits, gifs, really almost anything as long as it follows the rules & is focused on Spideytorch in some way & fits the prompt.

Once you’ve made some sort of content for that prompt -- it has to be new content, as in never posted anywhere before, and it’s supposed to be one prompt per fic/art/etc -- you can post it and then you’ve “filled” that square. Once you fill five squares to make a bingo, you can stop if you want! If you don’t make it to a full bingo, it’s no biggie and nothing will happen. However, if you fill up each and every square, you’ve “blacked out” your card, which is pretty awesome! (It’s also pretty difficult, honestly, but definitely not impossible.)

So to give you an example, I’ll show you part of a card I’ve made for this bingo

This is just the top row (there are five across and five down, with the middle spot saying “Free Space”), but let’s say this was the bingo you wanted to make. To be clear, you don’t have to do it this way, where you decide before hand what bingo you want to do, but I’ll get back to that in a second.

The idea is that participants would create a piece of content for each of these squares. So if you did “athletes”, like you wrote a fic with that prompt in mind or you wrote out a meta or you made a playlist athelete!Spideytorch would jam out to, you would be filling the square.

A trick I’ve found helpful for myself and people who don’t know where to start is to like write down all of the prompts, then write down any initial ideas you have, and then once you’ve done all you want to do, you can see which ones pop out the most to you. For example, I would write for teachers: “Johnny teaches engineering to upperclassmen, Peter got stuck teaching basic bio to underclassmen this year, they bicker in the teacher’s lounge”. Then write stuff for the others and go from there

I hope this helps dksfhksha it feels rambly honestly. if anything isn’t clear, feel free to send me an ask tho!!

[doctorwhos]

And I want Dr who fic recs with 10!! I have been having a hard time finding ones that are decent and where the author does a good job with rose. Do you have a list?

oh gosh uh. i can definitely put one together. i have to be a little garbage gremlin and admit that the majority of fics ive been reading recently have been azcrow, with the occasional zimbits thrown in for good measure because sometimes you want your stupid yearning to be canon. (also some parksborn or spideytorch bc i. peter parker?) while writing this up i realized how many fucking aus there are of family of blood, and how long people liked to write them. i tried to do a variation of length, but all of these fics are completed, bc im not a daft person who enjoys reading in progress fics. finished or nothing, im impatient. i also realized how horny people are for tenrose, which can be exhausting when all u wanna read is fluffy soulmate aus bc ur lonely. i think only two fics have a nsfw part, and i noted it in their descriptions, so this rec list is minor friendly ! sorry for so many au’s, i enjoy them too much. 

under my skin by hiddentreasures

a very short, really cute soulmate one shot with human!ten. im a sucker for soulmate aus, and this one was just. really cute. also had donna as tens cousin which i could get behind.

connect-the-dots by fingersfallingupwards

i know you said 10/rose fics but this one. is too much of a classic to not list. it has 10/rose. thats the majority of it tbh. but this one is really good. like above, im a giant fucking sucker for soulmate aus. that shits my bread and butter babey. give me a million of them and id never get bored. and i do love bad wolf rose, and i do love me some donna noble. this one gets pretty angsty in the middle, but its doctor who angsty so its just him pining over rose for a hundred-odd years like a knob.

a shop girl with a broken fob watch by licieoic

an au of the family of blood where its rose instead of martha bc she never got stuck in the parallel universe, and instead of racist old fart teacher john smith, hes alec hardy from broadchurch, because why the fuck not. its really cute, and i enjoyed it probably too much for someone whos never seen a second of broadchurch. there are two nsfw moments, which startled me bc there are Zero tags for it, so watch out. but its very cute, very fun, and alec is a grumpy fart. 

sad, beautiful, tragic (aka me, you, and us). by michellejjones

this one is more a meta on 10/rose than it is actually a fic about them but it was so. sadly beautiful i cant NOT rec it. like. heart wrenching sad yearning my dudes. the doctors love for rose really can be felt across all of his generations.

a thousand languages by mad_lori

this is from 2011, so its before we even like. really knew matt smith as eleven. but its cute !! its also super angsty, but its not that long so it doesnt hurt that much. a fun kinda character analysis on who rose would be if she was consistent through all his regenerations past 9. written really beautifully. surprisingly, rose is more in character than ten is, lmao. hes a bit too grumpy for ten, but too happy for nine. a weirdo combo of the two, but its still fun.

friends with (cuddling) benefits by lostinfic

humannn au !!!!!!! babee !! rose and ten share a flat and the doctor is his radio dj persona. its very soft. its all dumb mutual pining and stupid jokes that actual ten and rose have but like. more human. yknow? feels a bit more realistic. they still have their grand adventures, but less about saving people and more getting trapped in monkey enclosures. 

a way with words by hiddentreasures

hi my name is atlas neilgaimananti and i have a thing for both human aus AND soulmate aus, APPARENTLY ! this one is short and sweet and straight to the point. but i sure do love ten being a science fiction author.. its such a dorky thing for him to do it make sense. and also very much chaotic idiot representation here.

never ever by itooktheonelesstraveled

doomsday fix? dont mind if i do ! this one a huge comedy, tbh. a lot of switching up companions from different points, just to make sure that rose doesnt fall into the parallel world and donna doesnt marry lance. theres a nsfw scene between eleven and rose, but its more funny than anything else.

no rose without a thorn by morningsound15

this one is actually tentoo/rose, but its.. really cute. apparently im a sucker for rose being in love with all of the doctors regenerations, bc ive kept on reading them. tentoo regenerates whenever the doctor does in his world, but also like, keeps aging with rose. kinda complicated, but it does bring up a lot of questions abt their relationship, and also tentoo and how they view the doctor. the same but separate. its. a good fic, and a good character study on tentoo. 

its complicated series by tardisistheonlywaytotravel

atlas back with another au? ur right weary traveler, and buckle up, cause this ones hilarious. thats all im saying about it. it has a happy ending where rose snogs nine in front of ten to spite him, and the two of them are married, to everyone elses annoyance, bc theyre in love and gross. how is it an au? youll see.

blinded by the light by hiddentreasures

wow atlas another fic by hiddentreasures? ANOTHER human soulmate au? yes leave me alone this is my own rec list, i can do what i want. and i love when writers make ten and donna cousins. its so funny to me. a fucking king, international superstar james noble. 

ive been working on this rec list for like TWO DAYS now and its 3am and i just wnana go to bed, so this is it ! i think its a decent list --- sorry the majority of them are one shots i have teh attention span of a toddler. if you want more recs, let me know !! if u give me more specifics, like aus or doomsday fixes and stuff, i could probably give u a much neater list lmao. 

[marvelfandomchallenges-blog]

thanks to wonderful anons the event calendar is updated!

You can join as an ARTIST:

CAP/IRON MAN KINK MEME (ROUND 12) (you can also prompt)

CAP/IRON MAN TINY REVERSE BANG submit your art until 1st of July

CAROL/JESS MINI BANG open until 11th of July

CAPTAIN AMERICA BIG BANG sing-ups open until 13th of July

WIP WEEK between 22nd of July - 28th of July (any fandom goes)

CAP/IRON MAN BINGO post until 30th of July (you can join as podficcer too)

THORKI BIG BANG artist claims on 17th of August

MARVEL UNIVERSE BIG BANG sign-ups open until 1st of September

CAP/IRON MAN BIG BANG claiming begins on 29th of September

SPIDEYTORCH BIG BANG sign-ups open until 7th of October

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

You can join as an AUTHOR:

CAP/IRON MAN KINK MEME (ROUND 12) (you can also prompt)

POD TOGETHER sign-up until 23rd of June (you need to collab with a podficcer; any fandom goes)

SPIDEYTORCH BIG BANG sign-ups open until 30th of June

CAP/IRON MAN TINY REVERSE BANG from 7th of July

WIP WEEK between 22nd of July - 28th of July (any fandom goes)

CAP/IRON MAN BINGO post until 30th of July (you can join as podficcer too)

CAP/IRON MAN BIG BANG you can sign up by sending your draft until 26th of September

WINTERIRON REVERSE BANG claiming begins at 17th of June and will continue until end of the Bang

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

You can join as a PINCH-HITTER:

STONY LOVES STEVE before 4th of July

WINTERHAWK BIG BANG (as an artist) posting on 8th of July 

CAPTAIN AMERICA REVERSE BANG

CAROL/JESS MINI BANG

You can make a PODFIC:

CAP/IRON MAN BINGO post until 30th of July

POD TOGETHER sign-up until 23rd of June (you need to collab with a writer; any fandom goes)

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

You can WRITE META:

THE STEVE/TONY MULTIVERSE SHIP MANIFESTO

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

You can PROMPT/get inspired by prompts:

CAP/IRON MAN KINK MEME (ROUND 12)

FROSTIRON KINK MEME

DOCTOR STRANGE KINK MEME

STARKER PROMPS

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

DAREDEVIL KINK MEME

MCU KINK MEME

BLACK PANTHER KINK MEME

You can REC fanwork:

CAP/IRON MAN REC WEEK rec between 9th of July - 15th of July

WINTERIRON BINGO ADVENTURE open until December (you can create in any media)

SPOTLIGHT:

CAP/IRON MAN ANNIVERSARY PARTICIPANT GIFS & SPOTLIGHT

coming soon:

STARKER APPRECIATION WEEK 9-15th of July

PEPPERONY WEEK 8-11th of August

STEGGY WEEK

thank you to all who’ve messaged me and let me know about the events!!! <3 the passive events page also got updated :) 

[spideytorchweek]

Thanks so much for everyone who voted on the dates for Spideytorch Week and thank you to the members of the Spideytorch Discord who helped suggest and vote for themes for this year! Spideytorch Week 2020 will run July 27th - August 2nd 2020! We accept fanfiction, fanart, fanmixes, meta, or any other sort of fanwork centered around Spideytorch. To participate, just post on the appropriate day and tag #spideytorchweek!

HERE ARE THIS YEAR’S THEMES:

Day 1 - Villain AU: Spideytorch as villains?! This day is all about imaging Peter and/or Johnny as villains? Does Peter take an entirely different path after Uncle Ben dies or are the Fantastic Four the latest villain group to hit the scene? How do Johnny and Peter react to seeing one another as very attractive enemies? This is your day to decide! Day 2 - Usual Place: Anything focusing on Johnny or Peter and their favorite meeting spot, The Statue of Liberty! Whether it be a date night, simple hangout, or something a little bit spicier this is your day for decide how they spend their time at their favorite spot! Day 3 - Fashion/Photography: Anything related to Peter’s love of photography and/or Johnny’s love of fashion! Does model Johnny get photographed by hot photographer Peter? Or is it a canon-divergent retelling of Peter being hired to photograph Johnny? It can be an AU or canon-verse as long it it’s focused on our fashionable duo and/or photography! Day 4 - High School/College AU: Anything related to Peter or Johnny in high school or college! Do they meet somewhere in the halls of Midtown High or on the Empire State University campus grounds? It’s your chance to write and decide! Day 5 - Fairytale AU: Anything related to our boys in a fairytale setting or specific fairytale of your choice! Is Johnny the damsel-in-distress with Peter as his fairytale knight in shining armor, or is Peter the gallant prince fighting for Prince Johnny’s hand in marriage? Feel free to design your own fairytale like story or use any already existing fairytale story! Day 6 - Role Reversal: What would it be like if Johnny was Spider-Man and Peter the Human Torch? Well this is your chance to find out! This can be anything from Peter and Johnny’s swapping powers and roles as Spider-Man and the Human Torch for a short amount of time, to a total re-telling with Peter as the Human Torch and Johnny the web-slinging Spider-Man.  Day 7- Free Day: Participant’s choice! If you missed a previous day’s deadline, you can use this one as well!