#specifically i made this because i was thinking of mspec lesbians and gays but it is for anyone

[punkitt-is-here]

idk i thought the reason ppl identified as bi lesbians or mspec lesbians was due to the fact that they didnt see it as lesbian to date nonbinary people

this is the first anon and sorry for my weird takes im just confused

bc it honestly just feels like instead of bi/pan/omni folks using sapphic/queer/neptunic/etc to describe themselves, they're using something that has at least at *some* point i think meant an exclusive attraction to women/nonbinary ppl/etc. but if not you can correct me ofc

i guess the issue i have is that there are no other terms i know of to describe exclusive liking of women or nb peeps

Honestly here's my thing. The sooner you can accept that labels for sexual identities hold no intrinsic power and are much more like names or clothing or haircuts in that they are ways to express and define yourself then the sooner you will understand why people who have lived outside the cishet binary understanding of sexuality and gender want to play with the intrinsically more flexible nature of being queer. Any and all queer discourse over labels immediately becomes redundant when you understand that 99% of the time the labels will have literally zero affect on how you interact with someone irl. If some people want lesbian to mean exclusively women attracted to women, I get it. But the thing is you're gonna run into lesbians who don't define it that way and there's no way to decide what's the "definitive" take on the word because the end goal of all self-made identities is to label yourself in a way that makes you happy. If it makes you unhappy to identify exclusively as a lesbian, why do it? If it makes you unhappy to identify as bisexual, why do it? If it makes you HAPPY to identify as a bi lesbian and it is literally hurting no one? Why NOT do it? The English language is only trying to get decent approximations of the idea expressed by queerness and these labels were never going to be rigidly defined terms. After all, if we wanted to put all queer people in little clearly defined boxes, we'd just be making CisHet 2. Let yourself live free and realize that fretting over the specifics of how people identify is unneeded stress and jam out with some cool gay people ❤️

[kiruliom]

lunar | solar

eclipse lesbian flags!!

flags I made exclusively to piss off a specific tiktok user who wont even see this, but ended up putting way too much effort on anyway lmao I love them and will use them for oc and hc stuff >:) free to use by anyone btw!!

the different versions have the same meaning, just with a different palette and order, theyre both heavily inspired by the sun and moon lesbian flag so I thought "what happenes when moon and sun aligns?? boom!! an eclipse" and thats where the names come from

[image ID: two flags of 7 horizontal stripes, the first one's colors are from top to bottom, cherry, deep blue, purple, lavender, off-white, tan, copper. the second one's colors are from top to bottom, deep blue, cherry, dead rose, salmon, off white, teal, dark teal. end ID]

tagging: @mogai-sunflowers because I think youd be interested >:)

color meanings:

for lunar

cherry: femme lesbians, fem presenting lesbians

deep blue: butch lesbians, masc presenting lesbians

purple: transmasc lesbians, pnc lesbians, mspec lesbians

lavender: intersectionality, trust within the rest of the queer community and minorities

off-white: rejecting purism, shame, and guilt within the community, dykes, and futches

tan: family, trust within lesbian communities, acceptance towards eachother

copper: transfem lesbians, multigender lesbians, aspec lesbians

for solar

deep blue: butch lesbians, masc presenting lesbians

cherry: femme lesbians, fem presenting lesbians

dead rose: transfem lesbians, multigender lesbians, aspec lesbians

salmon: family, trust within lesbian communities, acceptance towards eachother

off-white: rejecting purism, shame, and guilt within the community, dykes, and futches

teal: intersectionality, trust within the rest of the queer community and minorities

dark teal: transmasc lesbians, pnc lesbians, mspec lesbians

obligatory (/j) sunset lesbian inspired stripe order versions

too tired to make IDs for these ones rn, sorry!!

also I probably wont make gay man versions for this, only because I have no idea what it would look like, if you have any ideas though feel free to make one and tag me in it!!

[image description: a black banner with a white outline, theres smiley faces with their tongues sticking out in every corner, also in white. theres also a small pink splatter from the bottom right corner. the banner reads "please do not reupload unless credited and informed". end ID]

[mathematical-cheese]

Intro Post

Hello! I'm panda, check out my gender. I use they/xe/þei primarily and if you want to only use one set that's okay. I am very, very aro. I'm not cis but I'm not trans either. I'm very normal about Omori, Star Trek, Mathematics and trains (lying).

Mutuals if you consistently reblog/post shipping content, please that tag it as #shipping

My incredible boyfriend is @tesco-finest-aromantics <2

Mutuals can ask for my discord

Pillowfort (in case Tumblr dies)

Header image is from here

I got these from here

I kindly ask NSFW/18+ blogs, discourse heavy blogs, and shipping centred blogs to not interact

Please don't refer to me with words like "bro" or "dude". Whilst they may be "gender neutral" in your vernacular, they aren't really in mine.

https://www.tumblr.com/mathematical-cheese/741935276808617984

Opinions/stances:

Gender dysphoria is not a necessary condition to be transgender

I support all "weird" and "contradictory" queer identities of good faith, e.g. mspec gays/lesbians, lesboys/turigirls, xenogenders, queerhets, etc

Sex and romance are not intrinsically bad. Whilst the way that society at large interacts with them is flawed, completely getting rid of them is not the solution

Trans men face a unique form of oppression and "transandrophobia" is a good term to describe it

"Narc abuse" isn't real. There are ways of describing your abuse and abuser which do not demonise personality disorders

I'm both anti-monarchy and anti-unionist (not against trade unions, but the UK being united)

I support informed self-diagnosis

Alterhumanity, nonhumanity, and therianthropy are real

Tone tags are not useless just because you personally don't find them helpful

Making fun of British people is not the progressive win you think it is. You are just playing into the deeply rooted classism. You are not funny (that includes saying "Bri'ish")

The previous point goes doubly if you're making fun of non-English Brits

Sex repulsion/aversion is not an excuse for sex negativity

I hope you enjoy your say!

Sideblogs:

Maths blog: @lipshits-continuous

Omori blog: @omori-in-odd-places

Maths gimmick blog: @maths-terms-identifier

Railway blog: @a-queer-rail-fan

BYF and personal tags under the cut:

Before you follow:

I am from the UK so I use British spelling. This is important if you block certain tags like "bright colours" as Tumblr won't filter those out if you only block the American spellings. If you are unsure of the British spelling of a particular word just send an ask!

I tag triggers as #[trigger] tw

If you would like me to tag any triggers, please ask and I will try my best

Tagging my aro specific posts with ace tags or otherwise talking over said posts will result in you being blocked immediately

Don't hesitate to tag me in a post you think I'd enjoy/send me asks as I enjoy recieving both! (anon is currently on)

Anyone can reblog my yearning posts if they would like to, just be mindful that if they are tagged with nblm I am yearning over a guy

This blog (and all of my blogs) is endo safe

Personal tags:

#panda’s post - general post tag

#ask panda - asks

#panda’s edits - images I’ve edited/memes I’ve made

#panda’s box - for my all time favourite posts

#pandacore - posts with me vibes

#panda’s music - original music/arrangements I have made

#my rock <2 - posts about my boyfriend

[redheadbigshoes]

i wish more people who support the concept or bi or m-spec lesbians would stop and consider just for a moment WHY lesbians might be so upset about people implying or outright saying that we can like men. these people (and people in general tbh) seem to think we're only oppressed for liking women, when, personally, i've faced way more hostility, aggression, and weaponized "ignorance" over the fact that i do not like men. (before anyone twists my words, i'm NOT saying lesbians have it worse than bi women/nonbinary people, because they also experience a unique axis of oppression that lesbians don't by being attracted to all genders. our experiences overlap, but they are different, and it's okay for both parties to talk about that)

growing up, i was terrified of the concepts of marriage, sex, romance, and love since everyone around me only spoke of my future experiences with these things under the rigid assumption that my partner would be a man. i tried telling them i'd rather be single forever (i had yet to realize i was "allowed" to be gay), and they always insisted that i would grow up and change my mind, which made me even more terrified. they presented partnership with a man as something that was an inevitable, unavoidable part of my future. i'm lucky to have had a (mostly) supportive environment when i finally discovered that i felt this way because i'm a lesbian, and i can happily say i'm no longer afraid of those things since i now know i can have them without a man, but holy shit, do people not get how traumatizing that is? to be a young person only able to concieve of love as a weapon to be wielded against you?

lesbophobia from cishet people is one thing, but when it's coming from my fellow lgbt people, who i come to for love, support, protection, and companionship after being isolated in my daily life as a result of my lesbianism (and being autistic and gnc), it's just ... unspeakably cruel. i don't think most or them fully realize what they're doing - i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say most of them are just young people that believe they're doing the right thing - but that doesn't excuse this level of violence, especially with how quickly the notion has become popular. they should know better.

also like. not to mention how fast they'll throw trans women and trans lesbians under the bus to dunk on "mono" lesbians but that's another conversation.

A lot of them don’t want to think for a few seconds why we’re so upset about it. They don’t want to recognize and accept our lack of attraction to men because a lot of them are misogynistic, they don’t think there’s people out there who are not attracted to men. It’s not a coincidence that “mspec lesbian” supporters are most likely the same ones saying everyone is bi.

This is what happens with every type of prejudice. People who don’t experience certain thing are less likely to sympathize with people who do face that. Therefore they think we’re exaggerating or that it’s not real because they don’t face it. The saddest thing is that other marginalized people should be able to sympathize with other prejudices because they face oppression.

And lesbians suffer a very unique type of oppression because it’s directly connected to both homophobia and misogyny. Just like you said: we’re not trying to say we have it worse than other sapphics, we’re just trying to make people listen to us and take lesbophobia seriously. And what I say might be controversial but from my experience observing other people it does feel like lesbophobia is taken less seriously than other prejudices related to the LGBTQ+ community. Especially because it’s a very ignored and erased oppression since people immediately box us with gays by calling what we face homophobia when sometimes is a way more specific oppression than that.

It’s frustrating because most of queer lesbophobes are also fighting other kinds of oppression, but they’re actively silencing and promoting lesbophobia. A lot of people might not agree with me but I think they deserve all the hate and oppression they get, very hypocritical wanting to stop [insert phobia] while promoting others.

[mogai-sunflowers]

hii can i get an inbox check? cause i submitted something and i wanna know if tumblr ate it or if you just hadn't gotten to it /lh /nm

sure thing :33

a gender that feels like a kitty dragon made of stars

neotransmasc aroace catgender veldian flag

Gender related to sleep, being in a daze, and goats / sheep

fwu/fwus flag

a flag combo with Intersex, MtM, Abinary, Transemphatic, and Plenialic flags

a combo starlamasc + starlafemme flag

a gender related to astronomy and astrology, planets, and zodiac signs

Hacker lesboy flag

Autigender that is connected to special interest in mysteries, detective work and finding answers!

a gender that is kinda connected to mockingbirds and heavily connected to mimicking other people's or characters' quirks, interests or style automatically or intentionally // changing yourself to appear more like the person/character you're interested in

A gender that is strongly connected to fluidity, changing and instability, but it is solid/partially solid/blurred and cannot be called solid or fluid (examples: connection to changing interests; unstable relationships with internet friends; unstable and quirky personality which user fruitlessly tries to grasp) Mainly for neurodivergent(mainly adhd) folks, but not exclusively

Gender related to shades of blue, the moon, and rainy nights

a gender that’s described as being as full and vast as the sea

gender connected to sunflowers, sunlight, joy and brightness like the sun, a dogs unfiltered happiness, a childs laughter

a gender related to stitting in a sunflowerfield and drawing the sunflowers that are standing in the warm summer sunshine

a gender relted to stargazing in a field of flowers while making up your own constellations based of of flowers

ephemeral lexic gender

a femme apollanox

lexegenders for chemical and test

a flag combo of hexboy, voidthing, and agender

an aroace/gaybian/violenatian/genderqueer/agender flag combo

a gender related to being a gaybian, and leaning/fluctuating more into gay or lesbian depending on the specific situation

a gender related to space, flowers, and being a gaybian

a gender about being a demon but don't think of yourself as evil because of memory loss and identity changes

A gender related to Eldritch beings and being a lesboy

A gender related to Eldritch beings and being a turigirl

transfem lesbimasc and transfem turifem flags

a genderfuck dyke flag

a term for having pronouns/names that should only be used by other inclus; a term where you are comfortable being referred to with certain names/pronouns, but only by other inclus

a bigender flag that is lesboy+turigirl

sunflower loveless/loveless omniaspec flag

a flag for non-mspec gaybians

a gender that is related to eldritch ghosts, eldritch vampires, eldritch mummies, eldritch werewolves, and eldritch Frankenstein monsters

a gender related to two images of two tumblr post memes (can’t attach them here)

multi gaybian flag

bigender (pangender + agender) flag

an allion related to fanfiction

xenogender related to knitted cat beanies

a gender related to nighttime and darkness, warm but breezy weather, cities and tall buildings in cities, late night walks, and generally feels like a solitary thoughtful walk out in the city at night, in a masculine way

an omniplypan flag

a Transmasc + omnigender+ Genderfluid + nonbinary & an aroace + omni-oriantated + lesboy combo flags

a pupgender + lesbian combo flag

abroromantic +lesbian + Cupioromantic combo flag

a semi- version of teratosexual

sun and moon themed omniaspec flags

[a-quilted-milky-way]

hello and welcome to my gender blog!

[pt: hello and welcome to my gender blog! end pt.]

hi! we're the quilt collective and this is our gender coining blog! we are a polyfrag system of over a hundred, we collectively use he/they pronouns but if you're talking to someone in specific you should probably ask them. we're all mentally ill in a variety of ways + autistic + adhd-ey

the host is named sam/fionn/a bunch of other names and here is its pronouns page :] https://en.pronouns.page/@sams_pronouns

request status: open

[pt: request status: open. end pt.]

tags:

-> a quilted starry sky ミ⛦ into the pile : terms/flags made by other people

-> hope you enjoy .✫*ﾟ✫*. quilt's coining : terms by me

-> other stars in the sky ⛧⌒⛦⌒⛧ saved for ___ : terms i am saving for a headmate (though as all terms are for a headmate somewhere down the line i might not always tag this)

-> in your eyes i see the stars ☆.⁠*⁠･⁠｡ icons: icon making

-> the heart of a supernova ✫⌒*･ﾟ✲ aldernic terms: for aldernic terms (see above, i might not always tag these)

-> thank you for asking ˚₊‧꒰ა ☆ ໒꒱ ‧₊˚ requests: requests

note: i reserve the right reject requests without explanation, also if i don't get around to an ask, i might just be busy (i am just a busy guy)

dni and banner/edit credits and id under cut

please don’t interact if you’re:

- anti xenogender/mogai, obvs i am a xenogender blog so really. just don’t.

- against mspec lesbians/gays or lesboys/turigirls as many of our members are mspec monos and our host is a lesboy

- planning to start discourse in any way (telling me if something is unintentionally offensive or if i accidentally recoin something is not included under this btw)

- racist/transphobic/sexist/antisemetic/homophobic/ other basic dni stuff

- anti endo. i think that endogenic systems are valid and cool and even if i don't understand entirely everything i feel as though anti endo people tend to be very mean and all that

- nsfw account, as i am a minor (also like. if you have minors dni on your stuff? cause i am. a minor. like idk what to tell you)

- involved in shipcourse, ship incest or pedophilia, or whatever. idk. just leave me alone

- anti agere/petre

- transid

IF YOU SEND MEAN ASKS I WILL DELETE THEM BECAUSE I DON'T CARE!!!

thanks for reading and have a nice day!

banner/edit by @/cocajimmycola (i love it so much!! go check them out because they do the coolest things. hands down.)

[Image ID: A rectangular banner divided into three rectangles with soft edges. The left rectangle has dark purple at the top and fades towards white. It has an image of Eridan Ampora from Homestuck casting a spell with a wand. The center rectangle is pink and purple and has an image of Rose Lalonde from Homestuck on it. She has a dress and also appears to be casting a spell with two wants. The third is blue with a chain pattern in the background. There is an image of Vriska Serket in her god-tier outfit, with a blue color palette instead of an orange one. End ID.]

[letterfromajax]

Please block @vaestra for being lesbophobic, biphobic, and transphobic

Please note that this person is neither a lesbian or bisexual from what I can tell based off their about. I am also assuming they are TME.

All of their sideblogs will be listed at the very end. All proof will be under the cut and will have the text transcribed to the best of my ability.

The biggest thing that made me make this post is that this person supports bi/pan lesbians and one of the posts he has floating around is literally just his quiet support for bi/pan lesbians. The post in question is the first one listed under the cut.

The bi/pan lesbian label is inherently transphobic because it excludes nonbinary identities from lesbianism, even though nonbinary lesbians exist. I am not a lesbian, so I don’t feel entirely comfortable discussing why it’s lesbophobic beyond the fact that lesbians cannot be bi/pan because they’re lesbians and vice versa.

I commented on this specific post telling him that the post could be taken out of context as support for Bi/Pan lesbians.

Transcribed Text

crescairis: i get that people are more comfortable with defined rules and structure but i also think q*eer people lost when they started resorting to dictionary definitions for what labels mean

crescairis: the q*eer umbrella is meant to deviate from the norm of rigid boxes and definitions and to decide that lesbian means Only this, bi means Only this, etc, is directly contradicting what q*eer means. each and every label is going to have a unique meaning to the person using it and that is how it’s supposed to be. if you’re not comfortable with that…sorry?

My aforementioned comment has since been deleted, but this was the response I received from him.

Transcribed Text

vaestra said: @childescatgirl actually it WAS my intention and you are the exact kind of person this post is talking about! go the fuck away!

Some more lesbophobia and transphobia taken from his about and DNI

Note: The first link provided was locked behind a paywall, the second link provided was written by a cis person, and the third one minimized transmisogony. The fourth link provided is a tumblr post…

Transcribed Text

We acknowledge that transmascs are affected by TERF ideology, as well as the existence of transmisandry. (Some very good articles on the subject: [#1.] [#2.] [#3.]

We acknowledge that the terms femme and butch are open to all q*eer people; [here’s why.]

Their DNI

I’m not a lesbian and I am TME, but TERF ideology mainly targets transwomen. Yes, other trans and even cis individuals can be impacted by TERFs and their ideology, but it’s specifically harmful towards transwomen and to detract from that and focus so heavily on transmascs individuals being harmed by TERF ideology is just a little weird imo. It’s up to you whether you think that’s a bad thing, but I included it because I myself am transmasc and it just feels weird.

The next transcription is only partial and I’m going to censor part of it because the words used make me uncomfortable. I will make the censored parts with brackets.

Transcribed Text

you use the “nonmen loving nonmen” definition of lesbianism, and/or you don’t believe in [lesbian boys]/gaygirls and or mspec lesbians/gays

you think q*eer is a slur that shouldn’t be reclaimed (any personal discomfort with being called q*eer will be respected)

you don’t think transmisandry exists, you don’t think transmascs are harmed by terf ideology, and/or you think the discussion of transmisandry is inherentky transmisogynistic

you think the terms butch and femme are for lesbians only (they aren’t)

This User’s Side Blogs Include

@/contaiuolo

@/crescairis (this was the side blog that the post was originally posted on)

@/fuckvriska

@/daylightsanctum

I’ll say it here again too, but I am trans and bisexual.

EDIT; I didn’t know butch and femme could be used by people other than lesbians. Thank you to everybody who corrected me. I’ll admit I didn’t bother reading the link attached to it because it was a tumblr post. I assumed this person genuinely meant like anybody could use them including like men. Which, unfortunately, is a take I’ve seen… 😬 my bad

[vignetterose]

Let's talk about the term "monosexual"

Note: I am using bisexual for the majority of this post. Bisexual, pansexual, and omnisexual people all experience biphobia and share most of the same experiences.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does monosexual mean? A monosexual person is anyone who likes one gender (plus non-binary people). Lesbians, gay men, heterosexual women, and heterosexual men are all monosexual. Monosexual is the opposite of MSPEC.

What is mononormativity? Mononormativity is a word similar to heteronormativity. It just means that in our society, it is the norm to be monosexual and many norms, beliefs, practices of activism, etc. only have monosexual people and the concept of monosexuality in mind. Mononormativity is why most biphobia exists. It's why bisexuals are often not believed about their sexuality, why bisexuality is seen as a phase, why bisexuals are told to pick a side, why bi women are seen as straight and bi men as gay, why bisexuals are denied asylum, etc.

Monosexual is a controversial term. Many people are uncomfortable with it, but there's no reason to be. There are a lot of claims and misinformation going around that I am going to debunk.

"It groups us in with our oppressors!"

If that's the case, so does allo, nonlesbian, nonbisexual, nongay, etc.

"Just say nonbisexual!"

Nonbisexual and monosexual are not synonymous. Nonbisexual includes lesbians, gay men, heterosexual women, heterosexual men, pansexuals, omnisexuals, and asexuals. Monosexual includes lesbians, gay men, heterosexual women, and heterosexual men. As mentioned earlier, monosexual is the opposite of MSPEC. Other MSPEC identities (pansexuals, ominsexuals, etc.) do not fall under the term monosexual. Monosexual is needed to talk about the specific experiences, discrimination, issues, and prejudice we face for being MSPEC.

Mono means one! It excludes non-binary people!"

Now this one is just hypocritical. Mono doesn't mean one gender just as bisexual doesn't mean two genders. Both terms are inclusive of non-binary people.

"People use it derogatorily!"

Some people do. And that's wrong. It is an academic term. It is not supposed to be used as a derogatory term. However, stop to think. Is this person using the term derogatorily or are they just calling you out on your mononormative way of thinking?

"Monosexual privilege doesn't exist. We're not you're oppressors!"

Monosexual privilege does not exist in the way you think it does. You are not privileged for being monosexual. However, you do have certain advantages because our society and the LGBTQ+ community is mononormative. It's like how I, a bisexual fem-presenting person in a relationship with a man, have an advantage in some situations over lesbians and bisexual women in relationships with other women. Because you are monosexual, you won't be told your sexuality isn't real. You won't be denied asylum because of your sexuality. You're less likely to be erased (i.e. calling two women in a relationship lesbians, calling the relationship a lesbian relationship, calling same sex marriage gay or lesbian marriage, etc.). You are less likely to be excluded from LGBTQ+ activism. And, unless you're a lesbian, you are less likely to be told your sexuality is a phase.

Now I'm not saying you've never experienced these issues! Lesbians definitely are erased and are usually not separated from gay men. However, I am speaking in a general sense.

"You just made the word up!"

Monosexual is an academic term that has been around since the late 19th/early 20th century. The source below is a great read if you're looking to learn more about the term.

"The term isn't needed!"

As I previously stated, the term is needed to talk about the specific discrimination, prejudice, issues, etc. we face for being MSPEC. Because society and the LGBTQ+ community is mononormative, MSPEC people have different experiences.

I hope this post has helped you become educated on the term. If you have any questions, claims, or arguments please feel free to DM me or send me an anonymous message.

[rjalker]

For future reference, this post is being made on June 13th, 2022. Why am I including the date? Because the cycle continues, and it will continue.

Apparently we need to go through this again.

The pan flag is pink, yellow, and blue. Magenta, yellow, and cyan to be more specific. That's the pan flag.

If you see someone using a "pan" flag that is instead green, yellow, and orange, that is the flag specifically created by exclusionists who got pissed off that the creator of the actual pan flag isn't a fucking bigot.

They're claiming that not hating mspec lesbians means you're a transphobe, even though that's literally not how any of this fucking works.

Here's the two flag next to each other for you to compare. Feel free to even save this if you need a reference.

[ID: the pan flag, labeled "the pan flag" with three stripes of magenta, yellow, and cyan, with the name of each color written on the stripe.

This is next to the exclusionist pan flag, which is labeled, "the flag created by exclusionists to 'replace' the pan flag because the creator of the pan flag isn't an exclusionist". The flag is striped green, gold, and salmon orange, with the name of each color written on the stripe. The picture has a white background, with a black border. end ID.]

The creator of the pan flag is not an exclusionist bigot, so exclusionists threw a fit and decided they were going to replace the pan flag.

These people are pissed off that people refuse to jump on their bandwagon of attacking and harassing mspec lesbians, by claiming that being an mspec lesbian makes you transphobic.

Mspec lesbians are not transphobic. Most mspec lesbians identify as such specifically because they are trans and/or nonbinary.

If you agree that lesbians can be attracted to both women and nonbinary people, you are literally agreeing that lesbians can be mspec.

Mspec means "multi-spectrum" which is short for "the spectrum of attraction to multiple genders" the same way "aspec" means "the spectrum of ace, aro, apl, and other related identities"

Mspec literally just means someone's attracted to more than one gender.

"Women" and "nonbinary" are two different genders. If you think that lesbians can be attracted to nonbinary people, then do the math! What's women + nonbinary people? Go on, do the math!

That's right! It's more than one! It's multiple! Lesbians can be attracted to multiple genders!

And if you agree that lesbians can be attracted to both women and nonbinary people, but you disagree that lesbians can be attracted to more than one gender, then guess what, fucko? Guess who's the transphobe here? Hint: it's not the mspec lesbian who's older than your parents. It's you, the person saying that all nonbinary people are actually secretly women.

Because that's what your argument is. If you think lesbians can be attracted to nonbinary people as well as women, but you think lesbians can be only attracted to one gender....congrats, asshole, you're a transphobe.

You are also literally falling for people erasing and purposefully lying about history. There are mspec lesbians older than your parents. This term did not get invented on tumblr like exclusionists like to claim (as though being a new term for an old concept would somehow make it inherently invalid). It's literally decades old. Just because you first heard about it on tumblr or twitter doesn't mean it never existed before you learned about it. You sound like straight people saying there's suddenly so many more gay people than there were before just because they've never fucking met a gay person who felt safe enough to be out around them.

Mspec lesbians have existed for decades. The concept is literally older than the internet. People have been calling themselves "bi lesbians" since before you were fucking born.

Get off your imaginary high horse of hatred and just shut the fuck up for once. Just stop fucking attacking people just because you don't understand their experiences.

You do not need to understand someone's experiences and identity to respect them and treat them with dignity.

Mspec lesbians have been part of this community longer than most excursionists have been alive. They've been here since the beginning and they will literally always belong, and there is nothing exclusionists can do about it.

If you actually support trans people the way you claim to, if you actually support lesbians the way you claim to, if you actually respect mspec people the way you say you do, then learn the actual fucking history instead of just going along with whatever hateful diatribe you stumble on first.

There is no sexuality that is inherently transphobic. You will not defeat transphobia by attacking literal trans people who are identifying in the way they feel most comfortable.

If you don't "understand" why someone identifies as an mspec lesbian? Then you have two options:

A) Listen. Be fucking respectful and willing to learn. Stop letting hatred cloud your heart. Actually listen to people who are willing to speak.

B) Accept the fact that you literally do not need to understand in order to be respectful. Cis people do not have to understand what being trans is like in order to stop being transphobic. You have no excuse.

There are too many damn people in the world for you to understand everyone's experiences. You will never understand someone else's experiences the way they do. You don't need to. You just need to be respectful.

Instead of focusing your energy on hatred, on attacking others, make some fucking friends. Build connections. This is a community, not a fucking deathmatch.

Do not support exclusionists. Do not support people who lie about and erase the history of the queer community. Do not support people who throw around catchy fucking buzzwords designed to piss you off.

Mspec lesbians are not your enemy and they never have been. But if you insist on being hateful, you are going to make enemies of the entire community, and you will not be welcome.

If you want to be part of the queer community, then you need to actually commit to building a community, not tearing it apart by attacking anyone whose experiences are different from yours.

Either you support all of us, or you support none of us.

If I see you using the exclusionist pan flag or any exclusionist flag (because yeah, they fucking tried this shit with the aroace flag too), you are being blocked on sight.

[bop-culture-is]

Hi! Friendly neighbourhood mzpec gay/lezbian here!

I'd like to know your thoughtz on people who identify az zuch and if you think the identity Gaybian(one of the many namez!) iz making fun of gay, lezbian and bizexual people?

Have a great day and may it be filled with good vibez!

Typing Quirk: Z = S

i think it depends on intent. i don't know too much about the label or its origins (if it originated out of disdain for LGBTQ+ people, that's a whole different story), but to make a long story short, i think that you should use whatever label fits whatever you're feeling best. yes, bi is a label that fits people who like both men and women (and if applicable, anything in between) but not every mspec person is comfortable with that.

basically, it’s none of my business what label you use as long as it’s not hurting anyone (ex: “super-straights”). if you’re proud of it and it makes you feel good in your own skin, i think that’s great!

what i'd like to know is if this label is specifically for nonbinary people, or anyone else who is neither a man nor a woman, because i do have an issue with men calling themselves lesbian/sapphic for liking women and women calling themselves gay/achillean for liking men. it feels like appropriation or exploitation of the labels made for us.

that being said, if you're not trying to hurt gay or bi people, i don't really see a problem with using a certain label, but that might just be ignorance talking!

i'll try to do some research on the topic, so if any of yall could provide feedback or articles, i'd love to hear it!

edit because i forgot the first part of this ask: yes i think mspec gays and lesbians are valid! i have a couple posts about it, so it’s not the first time i’ve been asked about them.��

[posi-pan]

Am I the only person who feels like… someone isn’t trustworthy if they have a tonnnn of bi positive posts on their blog, but nothing for pan people? Or other mspec people or queer people? I feel like it’s silly and mean, but people who only seem to support bi people (out of the mspec crowd) put me on edge. So many people who reblog bi support and positivity have turned out to be panphobic or otherwise queerphobic that it’s almost like a red flag for me.

But I feel hypocritical for it a little, because my blog is full of pan positivity, as well as positivity about other mspec labels and mspec gays/lesbians, but not a lot of bi positivity. Not that I don’t support bi folks because or course I do, but I tend to reblog posts about other labels more because they’re usually under recognized or being treated poorly, and I want to be vocal about my support of them. And with pan, I am pan, so naturally I gravitate towards pan posts. So I’m sure people with a lot of bi positivity posts are the same way, but. I can’t help but just be really wary about people who don’t have ANY supportive pan posts on their blogs at all. It’s horrible and makes me feel super bad :(

i don't think you should feel bad. while it's not inherently panphobic for people to not have pan posts (or posts about other mspec identities), because like you said; they could just gravitate toward bi posts because they're bi, they follow a lot of bi accounts, they just see bi posts more often, they have a bi specific account, etc.,

it's understandable to be hesitant or wonder about it. many pan people have searched the accounts that have no pan positive content and found that they're panphobic. like, it's a common thing. i mean, battleaxe bis made being panphobic their entire personality and online presence and their posts get thousands of notes.

constant, normalized panphobia on a large scale is the reason for this hesitance or worry when we don't see pan positivity or pan posts at all. it's not a "no pan posts? EVIL PANPHOBE" thing, it's a "no pan posts? ....why is that?" thing.

[chisatowo]

Ok so. First things first to get this out of the way, I don't support bi/pan/mspec lesbians/gays, at least not the label. I think it's at best misguided and at worst actively harmful and at times malicious. That being said, I really, REALLY wish ppl would stop using "the split attraction model is for aspec ppl ONLY" as one of their arguments against mspec gays. Like there's so many reasons and Ill try to simplify em so I'm not typing this all day, but hoo boy. First of all, it's just not a argument built in any form of more solid facts like most other arguments, which mainly have to do with language and history, along with the effects that normalisation of the label could have. The split model being only for aspecs is just such a nonsense statement next to those.

Like ok lets compare for a second, one other common argument against mspec gays is that while lesbian used to be a term for all sapphic ppl, it's since evolved and changed past that and it's current meaning isn't that anymore. Now while I do feel that often times when that argument is used ppl miss puting in some important details, such as how the separation of these terms is typically seen as a good thing, and that these separate terms are important to our current community, you can generally get the context from the base point that there is background behind the statement. There are details abt reality that have been examined, and this argument is a result of conclusions made from that. "The split model is for aspecs only" isn't that. It at best implies a history that isn't there, and it is just such an arbitrary argument that... Doesn't rly prove anything in regards to the existence of ppl who aren't aspec who do experience split attraction. You could argue that those experiences aren't real (comes off a shitty cause it is), you could argue that there's specific reasons that the split model as a term should only be used for aspec ppl (Id disagree plus it doesn't inherently make it a point against mspec gays so ofc ppl aren't using this one), or you could argue why different mspec gay labels wouldn't be a good fit for these experiences (which leads back to the original issue and would be basically reusing the same arguments as before, making it pointless as an inherent argument against mspec gays). Basically, once you actually start trying to take it seriously as an argument, it just.... Doesn't hold up without having to brush the possiblity of ppl who actually do experience split attraction without being aspec under the rug. Like its one thing that it's just a poor argument, but it frustrates me most of all because if non aspec ppl rly are experiencing split attraction, then it's rly shitty to tell them "no you aren't, only aspec ppl do, your experiences aren't real." and I don't think that should need to be a controversial thing for me to believe. Like this doesn't contradict not supporting mspec gay labels, like you can super accept and support potential split attraction allos and still think mspec gay labels are bad. I simply think that we shouldn't be ignoring more potential nuances of human attraction if ppl have those experiences, and also as an acearo lesbian, I don't want aspec ppl to be weaponised in a bad argument that could potentially do far more harm than good, even if it's against a thing I don't support.

(Btw pls don't derail this post into just mspec gay discourse that's a separate discussion to the one at hand and not what I'm here to argue abt)

[chiropterrors]

lord forgive me for the lgbt discourse i don't even have to respond to but i'm going to anyway.

i’m putting this under a read-more so normal people don’t have to suffer, but this is just responses to people who have sent asks about my post where i said i disliked bi/pan lesbians. feel free to listen to this wonderful circus music while reading, if you do. it’s somewhat wordy.

[TRANSCRIPT] anonymous asked: what about transmasc lesbians? like lesbians who id as masc but not mspec

okay... this one is pretty silly. and frankly i don't get how you connected mspec and transmasc.

(replacing what i originally said here with the urban dictionary definition because i am not good at describing things. ⬇)

(the only thing i’d say is “incorrect” in a way about the urban dictionary definition is “The term is especially used by people who aren't sure yet in which of these categories they fall.” transmasc is a whole identity, and one that people may identify with their whole lives without changing or “deciding”.) i specifically want to point out that not all transmascs are trans men.

it seems a few people think “mspec” means something like “masculine spectrum” but it does not! look at the bottom ask for what it means, or look it up yourself for more.

[TRANSCRIPT] anonymous asked: Sappho was literally a bi lesbian but go off I guess lmao

goo goo gaga someone's mad. she was literally SAPPHIC but go off i guess. it's almost like the word SAPPHIC was derived from her name or something.... crazy if true. 

sapphic  ≠ lesbian. sapphic includes all WLW, as well as NBLW if they want that. the word was made for and from sappho.

[TRANSCRIPT] anonymous asked: sorry if this is a dumb question but what is mspec? idk if i live under a rock but have literally never heard that term before..

mspec (sometimes spelled as m-spec) means Multi Gender Attraction Spectrum. someone who is attracted to multiple genders. people use this to describe bi and pan people but the thing is? i'm a lesbian and not bi or pan and i technically fall under this label.

the opposite of this is "monosexual" which is supposed to be used for attraction to one gender, frequently referred to as “sex” instead of “gender”.

this means straight people, gay men, and lesbians- but again, hilariously does not apply to me. and it groups straight people with gay people and that’s weird.

this way of thinking often coincides with people thinking gay men, lesbians, and straight people cannot be attracted to nonbinary people or date them, when in reality a heterosexual person can be interested in a nonbinary person, so can a homosexual person- because there is not ONE singular nonbinary experience and nonbinary people are not a monolith. nonbinary people are included in every sexuality.

THUS MAKING EVERYONE MSPEC. it's just useless.

[pantasticpans]

So if bisexual doesn't mean attracted to two genders or attracted to people within the supposed gender binary. What does the bi I'm bisexual mean then?

Hello! This was probably not sent in good faith, but this is a great opportunity to talk about bisexual and etymology. Strictly linguistically speaking, the prefix “bi” does mean two. However, that’s not the full story. English and other living languages are subject to linguistic changes; words fall in and out of fashion, new words are created, and meanings change. This last one is known as semantic shift and it’s quite common! In the case of bisexuality, the semantic shift made its definition more inclusive (this is specifically called broadening), changing the original definition of “sexual attraction to two” to “more than one/two or more” as nonbinary people gained recognition. Bisexual can absolutely still mean two, and many bi people are only attracted to two genders, but it’s no longer the case for everyone. I think it’s also important to note three things: 1. Bisexuality’s inclusiveness is not new. For proof you can check out the 1990 Bisexual Manifesto that says to “not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have "two" sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders.” 2. This is a common phenomenon in language.  A great example is to look at the names of some of our months. The “sept” prefix in September means 7, and was named that because it was the 7th month in the original Roman calendar. Then Julius Caesar showed up and added more, so suddenly September was the 9th month and not the 7th one. Its prefix still means 7, but its meaning has changed. Likewise, the “bi” in bisexual still means two, but its meaning has changed. 3. This is especially common in lgbtq+ language. Many of our terms are modified from their original meanings. Here are two examples: “gay” meant “happy” a century ago, and up until around the 1970s, “lesbian” was an action: women who did sexual actions with other women, so mspec women were INCLUDED with lesbians. This is obviously not the case anymore. In conclusion: Bisexual’s definition has widened and shifted over time. You cannot let yourself get bogged down with strict linguistic meanings because language is more complicated than that, and bisexual people’s definitions and experiences mean more than that. 

[bi-lesbian]

okay so if u think the term ‘lesbian’ can be used for people atracted to men then what are lesbians supposed to call themselves when they are only attracted to women(and nonbianry people) as the word gay is kinda an umbrella term involving mspec people

i do not like the vibes of this ask, but its not outright hate and asks a question ive seen people say before and so id like to adress it anyways.

the answer is to just use lesbian: because when a label is an umbrella term, that means it states what their identity includes not what it excludes. which is how the lesbian label was always used! when a man says theyre gay, yes gay is used as an umbrella term and doesnt always mean Exclusively Homo, but it states nothing else about their identity other than they like the same gender. there should not be any assumptions made on their identity. they said theyre gay, so all the info you have is same-gender attraction, so thats all it should be left as, unless they specifically state otherwise.

theres nothing wrong with words being umbrella terms, we just need for people to actually understand what that means when theyre used as such. when a woman says theyre a lesbian, someone should not hear that and think "so they could like men" because thats not what it means. sure, maybe they COULD, but thats absolutely not something that should be assumed. lesbian means you like women, thats it. when theres nothing else stated and no modifications to the label like "bi lesbian," nothing else should be thought of their attraction.

thats the thing we need to spread, not continuing to have bi women forced out of the label they always belonged in.

[radiqueer]

I’ve been trying to figure out how to contribute to the “born this way” conversation, but I’m not fully sure how to articulate my ideas. For me I feel like my identity... like I feel I was “born this way” like I’ve had intermittent dysphoria for as long as I can remember. But also as far as mspec labels go I could ID as pan, or poly, or Omni, but I’ve always felt bi fits and that’s the identity I choose. My partner tho, feels that they, more than anything, chose to be bi (1/2)

My partner feels that they had no inclination towards being anything other than a straight man until well into their thirties, when, due to a lot of factors, they decided any company was good company and decided to see if they liked being with men. They had a good experience, and they feel they could have left it at that but CHOSE to continue to pursue their attraction to men, and then much more recently, in doing their own research about gender identity and being around me (2/3 oops)

They chose to question their gender identity (which as of right now is inconclusive), and my partner feels happy as a bi questioning person, but also felt happy as a straight man and could have remained so but chose to be happy a different way. Idk it’s complicated/messy and I don’t really get it but it’s how my partner feels and I believe them. And then Political lesbianism is a thing. Idk it’s hard for me to wrap my head around I wish I could contribute more. It’s def not one size fits all tho

this makes a ton of sense, thanks for sharing!

I feel like - in a lot of ways, being queer and identifying as queer changed me as a person. it changed everything, from the way I think about and approach new topics, the way I see myself and the world, my politics, my tastes in books and art. queerness is fundamental to me, but I can conceive not being queer. if I didn’t know it was an option to identify this way, if I didn’t grow in a home that encouraged me to question and pursue new avenues, I would be a different person. and I cannot with any certainty say that I would definitely identify as queer at some point, if not at 14 then at 17, 19, 25, 40. I think I am happier for being queer, because it is relieving to share an experience and a community (things which have been difficult for me in the past) with people who love and support me. I like having a voice and an opinion on issues. I like my politics. I don’t like being discriminated against, but who does?

there are so many ways to have a fluid identity. you can be the same person all your life with the same experiences and label yourself differently over time. like your partner. one could be happy in one’s assigned roles but happier in a different set that they sought out and choose (kudos to your partner for keeping an open mind and allowing themselves to be happy in a non-normative way, btw), you can have a fluid identity that changes with time, you can be one thing and identify as another, you can refuse a labels on principle, you can be a political lesbian (or it’s equivalents, I suppose? I don’t know if we have something analogous to political lesbianism in other queer subgroups. I think certain parts of the ace community are the closest we’ve come) 

the problem is the idea that there’s only one way to be and feel about queerness and identity and labels. which, IME, is what the BTW crowd seeks to do - normalise us because we are an expression of naturally occurring human diversity. we deserve equality because we are people, just slightly different, and we didn’t choose to be this way any more than you did. it’s not our fault! give us some money! [/s]

people who are written over by this narrative, in no particular order:

questioning people who don’t even know whether they’re straight - they may or may not be

nb people who are often told we are special snowflakes, a symptoms of the excesses of liberal/left wing politics. that we wouldn’t exist if not for the internet [true of me if not for you / ymmv]

bisexual and mspec people

people with fluid identities

people who choose to present a certain way

political [orientation]

people who are choosing to not labels themselves out of fear

people whose identity is informed by trauma

etc

the problem is the dichotomy that seems to be essential to this debate - that you can only have one or the other, that people on one side keep trying to erase the opposing narrative. I frankly don’t know. I’ve only been a part of this debate for a few months and all my thoughts about BTW are informed by personal experience and what I have stumbled across on tumblr. not a comprehensive start by any means. but ime it’s always the BTWs who are trying to shove differing narratives away, and not the choicers. maybe @korrasera and i have different experiences! in fact, I think we have very different experiences 

The problem I’m trying to highlight, the whole reason I made this post, is that I’ve never seen someone suggest that only BTW is valid. In fact, the only times I’ve ever seen people discussing BTW was to specifically suggest that we have to do whatever we can to erase it as an idea because they perceive it as being inherently exclusionary, as though the existence of people who were BTW meant that people could not be queer, gay, lesbian, or trans without having been born in that state. I think it’s a reasonable assumption to consider such intentions as being somewhat noble, since they’re meant to criticize and deconstruct social constructs of legitimacy, but I literally never see the topic raised without it being ‘let’s get rid of the idea that BTW people exist, it’s not true and it hurts the cause’. 

[emphasis added all mine; taken from this post]

I have a different experience. I’ve seen BTW discussed as the only right way to be, and not only by exclusionists (I wouldn’t be able to find receipts on this - I remade my blog recently, and lost all my likes and the people I was following). even when I talk to people irl, I’m forced to resort to a narrative I don’t have any stake in to get my point across, a narrative that doesn’t help me. it’s frustrating and alienating. and I still don’t think we should do away with BTW. I think we make room for people like me to exist and talk, and define clearly what it means so more people can figure out whether or not they fit.

I read around some while I was writing this post, so here’s some stuff tangential but essential to my thoughts:

this post about the relationship of radfems to what constitutes essential womanhood

this post by the same user about why some people may choose a certain labels

another post by the same user

this post, which possibly everyone has read, but I was thinking about this part (emphasis mine)

My girlfriend Marna has been a queer activist since the late 80s. She’s told me about the incredible deliberation and debates LGBTQ+ activists had, in the late 90s and early 00s as the community began to see past the AIDS crisis and immediate goals of “surviving a plague” and “burying our dead.” There were a lot of things we wanted to achieve, but we had to decide how to allocate our scarce reserves of money, labour, publicity, and public goodwiil. Those were the discussions that decided the next big goals we’d pursue were same-sex marriage equality and legal recognition of medical gender transition.

From hearing her tell it, it seems like it was actually a wrenching decision, because it absolutely left a lot of people in the dust. A lot of people, her included, had broad agendas based on sexual freedom and the rights of people to do whatever they wanted with their bodies and consenting partners—and they agreed to put their broader concerns aside and drill down, very specifically, onto the rights of cis gays and lesbians to marry, and the ability to legally change your sex and gender.

As a political tactic it was terrifically effective. […]

Activists of 20 years ago chose to sideline and diminish efforts to blur and abolish the gender binary. Efforts to promote alternative family structures, including polyamorous families and non-sexual bonds between non-related adults. Efforts to fight the Christian cultural message that sex is dirty, sinful, bad, and in need of containment. Efforts to promote sexual pleasure as a positive good.

I couldn’t tell you why these posts stuck out to me while I was writing this, but they do a better job, by and large, of contextualising what I’ve said here