#sol the Jedi meta

[sepulchralblues]

It’s remarkable how Sol keeps justifying his murder of Mother Aniseya sixteen years after it happened. He needs himself to be right, needs Osha to require saving, because it’s the only instance that allows him to walk away without a stain on his conscience.

Granted he feels guilty about murdering his padawan’s mom, but it would be so interesting to see what was going on in Sol’s head in the heat of the moment. Was it his “deep connection” to Osha that he believed was going to lead her to becoming his padawan? Did that influence his view on whether Aniseya was really a threat to Osha? Because she says it as she’s dying - she tells Sol she was going to let Osha go, and Sol can’t have that be true because if it is then what he did wasn’t in the defence of the innocent it was premeditated murder.

Sol can’t have it be true so he tells himself that it was a lie, that Osha was in danger, if not from Aniseya then from Mae, from Mother Korril, from everybody on Brendok because he needed her and believed with everything in him that she needed him too.

And for sixteen years he’s had the opportunity to recall that truth he buried so deep it never saw the light of day until they were back in Brendok. For sixteen years he’s lied to Osha and planted the seeds to destroy the potential relationship she had with the only other person who could have understood her. From her twin, her mirror, the other side of her coin.

So when Osha learns the truth, when she finds out just how much of her life has been a lie - how much of the past she was forbidden from healing from and grieving has been a lie. How the closest thing she has had to a father figure has spent every day of their relationship lying to her, she snaps.

And kills him.

[gffa]

I was initially set to go, "Wait, that's it? That's what Torbin was so torn up about that he retreated from the galaxy and felt so guilty that he killed himself for Mae?" but the more I thought about it, the more I found it to work. Torbin's guilt isn't about that he did something evil, it's that he did something reckless, for a selfish reason, and that he was warned about it ahead of time. Torbin's guilt was about allowing Aniseya into his mind (blaming himself instead of blaming the person who actively invaded his very mind), it was about wanting so badly to go back to Coruscant that he rushed into a situation that Indara warned him to be careful about, it's about how many people died not at his hand, but as what he sees as a domino effect of his actions. He got what he wanted, they were going back to Coruscant, but that little girl went through hell for them to get it, another little girl died (so he thought), a bunch of people died in that mining facility. It doesn't matter that they chose to do so by invading Kelnacca's mind and their own actions got them killed. It doesn't matter that it was an accident that Mae started the fire. It doesn't matter that Torbin fortified his mind so that Aniseya couldn't get in again or that he didn't kill any of the witches himself. Because he's a Jedi who cares deeply about other people, because it happened to someone so young and innocent, because other people's lives MATTERED to him, Torbin couldn't live with the guilt. His only crime was being reckless, but Jedi are aware of the powerful abilities they have and the responsibilities they have and how selfishness is a path to the dark side (that's just Lucas' worldbuilding, that's literally how the Force works) and that is why he was willing to give his life up for Mae's wish. Because Torbin felt responsible for his reckless actions that had unforseen consequences despite Indara's warnings and because he cared deeply about what happened to other people. The Council probably would have given them all library duty and had them relearn themselves, like that's literally what they did with Elzar Mann when he killed Chancey Yarrow because he mistook her for a Nihil who was trying to destroy the station, they saw that he regretted his actions and had worked hard on self-reflection and said they still wanted him to be a Council member. That is what the Jedi Council would have done for Torbin and Sol as well--but they couldn't do it because it would have crushed Osha's dream, so they sacrificed their own desires for her sake. They couldn't talk about it and it haunted them every day afterwards. Because they cared about other people.

[maidenvault]

The red flags are so blatant in what we see of Mother Aniseya’s coven, is it not registering for anyone else that Sol got too emotionally involved but his instincts might have been correct?

Mae and Osha don’t know anyone but this small community. No other children, no friends. Apparently they’re not even supposed to venture outside by themselves. They don’t have their own lives, brought up to basically think of themselves as one person.

Aniseya’s the only one who truly loves them and cares about Osha’s feelings. When everyone’s discussing her leaving, the others only talk about what it will mean for them and their future. They just want her power.

Aniseya singles out the youngest of the Jedi to control with her magic as a threat when they haven’t done anything hostile. It’s understandable they feel a bit threatened and I see why the Council says they overstepped, but Koril is ready from the time they show up to go to their camp and kill them all.

Why are they teaching the girls to fight like it’s so serious? If these women all just want to live here unbothered, what are they actually preparing them for? What was it going to mean when the ritual was completed with both of them, and was it going to do something irreversible?

Aniseya tells Osha that others don’t accept their ways so she wouldn’t like the outside world like she thinks. (A manipulation tactic in cults.) But with the Jedi’s perspective, it’s now clear everything they said when they interrupted the ceremony was basically a pretense for checking on the welfare of the girls and they don’t care about these witches practicing another Force-based religion or training kids. So if they’ve got this persecution complex it could certainly be because they’re actually doing something wrong. (Or just because they want to keep the power of this vergence all to themselves, all while saying they’re not like other girls 'cause to them the Force isn’t something you use or own.)

Most alarmingly once Aniseya’s dead, none of them try to get to the children in the burning building. They just keep attacking the Jedi for what they did.

Of course lots of viewers will say that many of these concerning things are problems with how the Jedi treat children, too. And that’s probably meant to be the point, that there are different ways of looking at it. But it’s telling how practically nobody’s even addressing them. This show certainly reads differently depending on the bias you come to it with.

And none of these things really give the Jedi the right to remove these children from their family. I don’t think Sol’s concern comes from nowhere, but whether Osha's safe here is a separate question from whether she should be a Jedi and not necessarily in their purview. But he’s not using clear judgment because of his feelings so he ends up just hurting Osha, surely worse than anything her own mother was going to put her through. Attachment is selfish love, it's not good actually!

[lamaenthel]

thinking about all the different hairstyles the younglings had in Sol's introductory scene and just how much that says without a single word. nobody has the same hair. more importantly nobody is old enough to do their own hair. their Crèchemasters got up early to brush and braid and style their younglings' hair before breakfast. they probably asked them what they wanted to do today and teased them about just putting it into a ball on their head like Master Oppo, and then their youngling whined and begged them to put the pretty rings in that sound like chimes when they brush together and they handed them a juicebox and went to work making them pretty. and then the youngling sat on their haunches with their juice and probably some space crackers and watched the Crèchemaster go to their next clanmate, who's been bouncing on their bed, the one who is so excited they can't sit still, with a hand stuffed with hair ties and ribbons and bells waiting for their turn and yeah I'm crying again

[lovegrowsart]

i need people to recognise that while osha was/is emotionally repressed, that doesn't mean she's innately passive in her personality?? passivity is forced upon her by other characters (primarily sol and the jedi) but since she was a kid she expressed a desire for action and adventure - she was the one sneaking out of the fortress to the bunta tree, desiring her own life outside of the coven and her relationship with mae, drawn to the jedi and their lightsabers, and even when she leaves the jedi order, she doesn't exactly settle down somewhere quiet but goes to the other end of the galaxy and takes up a dangerous mechanic job that's only legal for droids to do while hopping from ship to ship and getting tattoos on drunk nights out with her crew? even in episode five with yord trying to haul her back to the ship, she doesn't exactly go completely willing (sol has to force push her into yord!) and is then the one that convinces yord to go back (💀), and she also immediately latches onto the idea of rejoining the jedi when she thinks sol is offering that at the beginning of episode four, and once she does know the truth, she instinctively force choked sol and bled his lightsaber (even anakin needed more convincing/encouragement to go dark side than she did)

mae comes across are more active/aggressive because she's more emotionally open/driven and has the truth that osha does not (that sol killed their mother) so is therefore incredibly motivated by that truth and desire for revenge/justice - but she's also the one that was comfortable and content with her life in the coven, that seemed to only need osha in her life, that didn't like osha sneaking out of the fortress, that seemed to flourish under the coven's teachings whereas osha chafed against it, doesn't actually seem to like conflict all that much considering how quickly she's willing to give herself up to the jedi once she knows osha is alive and then when she seems content for sol's punishment to be facing the high council/the republic, she seems surprised when she succeeds in killing indara and then doesn't kill the shopkeep alien even though that'd likely (and does) make things harder for her, offers torbin the option of going to the council or taking the poison, and doesn't even kill kelnecca or sol, and generally is clearly not all that committed to the dark side/sith stuff qimir's trying to teach her and spends episode five running from him/pleading for her life over trying to fight him (in comparison osha manages to (temporarily) defeat him by siccing giant bat moths on him)

they're both more complicated than they might appear on the surface!!

[sol-insidious]

Bringing my two cents to the (in)famous Luke "Chanel Boots" Skywalker joke because I actually have weird thoughts about Luke and fashion tropes that go beyond haha gay blonde twink like luxury brand.

Thinking about Luke's characterization and fashion as a narrative device. The significance of Luke leaving Tatooine with literally nothing but the clothes on his back and donning Corellian Bloodstripes at the end of A New Hope.

Thinking about Luke's wardrobe gradually transitioning from lighter colors to black throughout Episodes IV-VI.

Thinking about the sheer intentionality of Luke having an all-black wardrobe in Return of The Jedi onwards. Is it to honor his father? To mourn him? To remind himself of who he could be and who he already is? All of the above? Thinking about the deliberate asymmetry of Luke's single black glove. Thinking about the white flap on his chest.

Thinking about Padmé and how she was molded into fashion since birth, the extravagance of her outfits and makeup as an Amidala. Thinking about how Luke seems to mirror her regal anonymity with his cloaked grim reaper fit. Thinking about Luke's disconnected relationship with his late mother and wondering if he ever felt the same level of restrictive empowerment she did when she wore her gowns.

Thinking about the nuances of queer fashion and how it can equally be as empowering and restrictive to the wearer.

Thinking about the white and orange prison uniforms in Andor and the colors of the Rebel Alliance.

Thinking about my old Modernist Literature professor who wrote her thesis on the colors of stockings in D.H. Lawrence's fiction and how women characters chose to wear bright stockings under their long, billowing skirts that no-one else but themselves could see. Thinking about the color pink in Legally Blonde. Thinking about reading dress and fashion as a legitimate pathway to literary analysis. Thinking about the utter significance of Luke's entire outfit. All of his outfits.

Thinking about those damn Chanel Boots.

[mayhaps-a-blog]

OK so the thing is

The path to the Dark Side isn't just kriffing up. You don't just go "whoops!" one day and start murdering people for fun. You make decisions. You make choices. And when those choices go bad... instead of standing up and admitting your mistakes, you double down.

Sol's Fall perfectly hits the beats that I think many people lose track of with Anakin - his first Fall wasn't with Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, but with the Tuskens in Attack of the Clones. Anakin goes from sobbing in Padme's arms that he killed the women, and the children too - he killed them all - to screaming that they were monsters and they deserved it. Instead of facing his mistakes - the lives that he took in anger, in rage - he insisted that you know what, he was right to do that. He did the right thing. He's glad he did it. And he'll do it again.

Sol kriffed up. He was too emotional on Brendok - Indara called him out on it, and she was right. The witches DID love their children, he DID get the wrong end of the stick, and however weird they were and worrisome the bits they saw with the kids were, the answer to that is to find out more information or, I don't know, wait one kriffing day, not charge in, lightsabers drawn.

(I don't blame Torbin, really. He was also totally out of balance, but he was the Padawan learner - the student who needed guidance, not the Master supposed to deliver it. Mother Aniseya had gotten into his head and thrown him for a loop, and Indara needed to sit on him a bit more - but if she'd been on a speeder instead of Sol, I think things would have worked out very differently.)

Instead it was Sol, who dragged Torbin into a dangerous situation without thinking of the consequences - without even considering that he might be wrong.

Honestly, I'm not even sure I blame him for swinging at Mother Aniseya. Mae had said some pretty worrisome things and was literally dissolving into midair. I blame Sol for being there in the first place, where he had no place, and for putting everyone on edge so far that Mother Aniseya felt the need to move to protect her children, and he felt the need to retaliate unthinkingly.

And then. And then.

Hard to say if Indara did the right thing. She was thinking about Osha, and I don't think she was necessarily wrong. She gave Osha a chance to have the life she dreamed of, a chance she would never have had otherwise.

But Sol.

Sol should never have taken Osha as his Padawan. He was too close; the hurt was too painful to hide. He couldn't tell Osha the truth, so he buried it, papered it over with justifications and excuses - he'd done it for Osha. For the girls. To keep them safe. It was the right thing to do. It was the only thing to do. He did it for Osha. And that gave him the means to look Osha in the eyes and smile, and pretend everything was fine.

But of course, he couldn't let her go, either. He'd done it all for her - he couldn't fail her now. Couldn't admit that he'd failed her. He had to make this right - (but it was right already it was it was) - but the closer he bound them together, the harder it was to let go of his attachment to her. After all, if he told her now... what if she hated him?

Sol loved Osha too much from the very beginning. He couldn't let go of his attachment to her: to his idea that he could save her, could train her, to be the master he wanted to be for her. He couldn't face his own failures, so he refused to see them; insisted that they were correct, right, justified, to the last. And in the end, that's what poisoned Osha - and himself.

He was afraid. Afraid for her; afraid for himself. And his fear led to anger - at the Master, at himself. And his fear led to anger - Osha's, at him, for papering over his fears with lies, lies to her. And anger led to hatred. And hatred? Led to suffering.

No one walked away from Brendok without suffering. Not Osha; not Mae. Maybe Qimir; maybe not. But definitely not Sol.

Sol had to make a choice. And he made one. But he didn't just make one choice; he made many choices, over and over again. And no matter what excuses he gave, what justifications, he could never bring himself to admit that maybe, just maybe, he'd made the wrong choices.

Sol's lightsaber may not have been red. But I think, if he'd finished that swing on Khofar? It might not have been all that far from it.

[groove-on-boogie-down]

According to Qimir, Osha loves people “who can only go so far” but not deep enough. Not as deep as she can. So for her to seek love, it not be reciprocated, then hear Sol almost confess he loves her after lying for 16 years SURELY must rattle Osha’s perception of love and connection as taught by jedi.

The jedi teach a love that is to be released, non-possessive, truthful. However, Sol was possessive and lied which kept Osha at a distance and was contrary to their teachings.

On the other hand, Osha loved deeply and could not let go of her hate or grief. So her feelings would be considered dark and dangerous by jedi standards.Yet, Sol is the one who let “dark side” tendencies slip in and it ruined him.

The love Osha learned from her family was passionate and raw. Sacrificial. Communal. And she likely sought that in everyone she met after being taken from Brendok.

Sol’s love was lies, death, and self aggrandizement.

Imagine being told that the foundational love your family raised you on was wrong? But your teacher betrays you in the name of his “correct” version of love?

Sol’s irresponsibly created a cycle that now Osha has to live with and process. She does what he does, kills after he kills, and it is his failure, like he says in the show.

But Osha is left to pick up the pieces of this hypocrisy and come to terms with the dissonance.

She can neglect the example her father figure left and instead embrace emotion and the displays of love her mothers taught, by connecting with Qimir who offers the depth she desires and by fighting for her sister, Mae.

She has a lot of emotional work ahead of her as she confronts how her feelings led to the violence she was told to reject. But perhaps she will love and emote freely again, and realize she’s loved back just as much.

End.

——

TLDR: Osha was taught showing emotions is wrong by the jedi who raised her and killed her mother. Which led her to emoting and killing him. This must feel conflicting as Sol was wrong!! But was Osha also wrong for getting revenge? According to the jedi yes. Does it matter now, though? This is what she must process. Additionally, yearning for love that isn’t reciprocated and being taught certain behaviors are wrong only for your teacher to exhibit these behaviors and betray you in the name of love, then you yourself do those behaviors and kill him, must be an overwhelming whirlwind of emotion! I want to know what processing that will look like for Osha who now is connected Qimir who offers her the understanding and reciprocation she’s been longing for.

[cross-d-a]

I wonder if one of the major purposes of The Acolyte is to show that the dark side is everywhere and it is in everything and it is in everyone. It is a constant battle, a constant fight. A consistent echo of “choose the right thing choose the right thing choose the right thing this time.” Bc it feels like the show is leading up to the big Reveal of whatever Sol has done. Sol, who is kind and gentle and fatherly. Sol who seems to encompass the epitome of the Jedi. We’ve really only seen him through the eyes of his friends/comrades and the eyes of a lonely, traumatized child.

The overarching “unreliable narrative” of the show is Fascinating. As the audience, we view the story through so many opposing viewpoints and are forced to work mostly with both the characters’ and our own interpretations of events. We have multiple Jedi viewpoints of course, who largely view themselves as a benevolent entity. And then of course we have the Sith who view the Jedi as oppressive but also perhaps naive as they force themselves to work within their own self-governed rules. And we have the people, who so far have seen the Jedi as friends, strange neighbors, hands of the Senate and nuisances. And then. THEN we have Osha and Mae who have inside perspectives of these opposing viewpoints but are also Other, both by nature of their existence and their experiences.

We can choose to make the wrong decision, or the right one. But who determines what’s wrong or right? And how do you navigate that choice when you don’t have the full story? How can you trust that your decision is the right one, when it may be right for you but wrong for someone else?

There are so many layers to it and it really feels like The Acolyte is trying to explore that. Because the Dark Side is wrong to the Jedi, but it’s right to the Sith. And what do you do when you think you’re a good person but make the wrong noice? How do you navigate that? How do you recover? How do you right your wrongs? And should you even do so?

This got away from me a bit but I think The Acolyte boils down to this. Nobody is inherently Good or Bad. There are decisions and how you deal with the consequences. Not to say you can’t consistently purposefully make choices that hurt others, but I think The Acolyte is trying to show that the Jedi are just- people. They’re people who have this amazing power and live within a complicated religious organization with a complicated relationship with the rest of the Galaxy. And the Jedi may have power but they’re just people, too. And they have good in them, and they have bad in them. And what makes a Jedi a Jedi is that they’re constantly fighting against the dark in them, and maybe sometimes, they make mistakes, because after all they’re just people, too. And sometimes, they just give in, for any number of reasons, but maybe most of all because they think they’re doing what’s right. (But who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong?)

[space-blue]

jedi thoughts

One thing I like about the Acolyte regarding the fight before Jecki's death, is that you can FEEL and SEE the exact moment Sol would have said something to curtail her and order her to calm down and not let her feelings take over.

When she leaps past him :

I'm sure it's more to do with establishing her arrival into the shot, but his look, paired with her reckless attack, her being alone in the fight when she unmasks a dangerous opponent, and the way she's screaming and whailing with too much feeling into each stroke...

To me it feels like an iconic "control yourself/your feelings" or "stay centred" rebuke moment. But he doesn't. He doesn't want to distract her, it's dangerous, and it's happening right now. There's no time for it.

And then she's dead. It felt real, and that last leg of her fight, while beautiful, has a grim quality to it. A live demonstration of why you don't want to be overconfident.

I could almost hear Obi-Wan yelling at Anakin for this. In the Clone Wars Anakin would fight like Jecki, get hurt, get told off, and live another day to be more reckless. But Jecki didn't have plot armour, and she shows us why such recklesness, against a poorly known enemy, is terrible.

[justanothersailorscout]

Osha's failed Padawan Trials

(I already posted this thread on the former bird site, but I wanted it here, too)

What happened on Brendok this and what happened on Brendok that.

What I want to know is what happened in Osha's Padawan trials

So, we know the Padawan trials were a set of five, and consisted of the Trial of Skill, the Trial of Courage, the Trial of the Flesh, the Trial of Spirit, and the Trial of Insight

I personally think it makes the most sense for her to have "failed" the Trial of Spirit

"To pass the Trial of the Spirit, apprentices have to look deep within their souls, on a quest of self-discovery. This test was designed to pit a potential Knight against their most dangerous enemy: the darkness within themselves"

This was, unsurprisingly, highly traumatizing to many Padawans.

Padawans would essentially go into a meditative state to try and combat their inner fears and demons.

Because it was a highly personal trial, the Padawans were the ones that scripted out what was going to happen, and a Master would supervise them.

Anakin was said to have, unconventionally, passed this trial when he had that force vision of himself as Vader on Nelvaan.

Luke's version of this trial was on the cave in Dagobah.

So what happened with Osha?

If she was the one to script out what was going to happen, it might make sense for her to think to face what happened to her on Brendok

But we know that Sol (or someone) has fucked with her memory

And we can assume that Sol was the one supervising

Would it then also make sense for Osha to have almost seen what actually happened to her there, and then Sol interrupted/sabotaged the trial???

Osha putting on Qimir's Cortosis helmet is a redo of this trial. She's going to face (and accept!) her own darkness once and for all.

[anthony-crowleys]

Ok but I can't stop mulling over this exchange in ep. 6 between Mae-Posing-As-Osha and Sol, "I had to lose a lot of myself in order to become a Jedi. [...]" And him responding "I'm sorry if it felt that way."

Like.

Number one, did he not felt this way too, even just a little?

I think that abiding to that strict moral code, trying to rein in strong emotions and finding balance would take a toll on almost everyone, more or less (some people are clearly more inclined to a lifestyle like that and are very proficient at it, like Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda etc., but clearly it's not for everyone, see Luke and Anakin and now Osha).

Is this an indicator that no, he was perfectly fine within the set rules of the Jedi lifestyle and what transpired on Brendok was just a natural slip up that could have happened to every other well-meaning Jedi.

Or… That he didn't felt like he had to change at all and never really did?

He grew up and remained an emotional man, prone to be led by his gut feelings, and nobody had a problem with that because he is a gentle and warm person that doesn't create problems and kinda decided to let it slide until it blew up in their faces but they don't know that yet?

(But the council acknowledged that he was still not mature enough to have a padawan, at least that is what I gathered in that conversation with Indara in ep. 7. They knew he wasn't ready. I also wonder how the whole "We don't think you are ready but oh look you now have a child you say you feel a strong connection with sooo ok you can be her master let's see how it goes!" thing went down.)

And then after Brendok he didn't felt that he needed to change that much, just "lesson learned now I'll be more careful" and that was it? And maybe being responsible for Osha is what helped him become more wise and controlled?

That line makes it seem like it's a foreign concept to him, having to shed and set aside things about your character in order to fit in a somewhat thight mold like the one the Jedi code requires. He was quick to confide that he left home when he was younger than her and that he felt different from his family, so I guess that if he also shared this sentiment, he would have said so.

And number two, worded that way it seems like this is news for him? Did he not notice that Osha struggled too much?

I mean, we don't know how/why she left the Jedi order yet, and that fact alone must have been a strong indicator that she was not in the right place, but still, how is Sol taking in these words?

As a further confirmation that she was unhappy there or as a surprise, because he thinks he failed her by not being a good master and that it's solely his fault that she didn't thrive in the Jedi order? This could tie in neatly with that "Perhaps I wasn't a very good teacher." line from episode two, that there is an underlying sense that he thinks he was not good enough and failed at the one thing that he cared about more than anything that defines this character.

And, at least to me, it's still unclear whether or not Sol knew at this point if this was Mae or he thought he was talking to Osha, because if he knew, this was just a "Let's give a vague but somewhat fitting answer even though I know this is not true" kinda thing and my time thinking about this whole exchange is being wasted ig.

[gffa]

When Sol said that he felt a connection to Osha, when he felt that she was meant to be his Padawan, Indara's response was to make sure he wasn't confusing what he wanted with what the Force wanted, and that's it, that's exactly it! Sol's statement isn't criticized because that kind of destiny doesn't exist--it pretty clearly does, sometimes people are meant to be Master and Padawan, they're drawn together by the Force, that's a thing the Force does in Star Wars, that's part of the worldbuilding that exists. It's criticized because Indara isn't sure that he's not bringing his own baggage to this, as that's something that often happens. The Force is not separate from a Jedi, it's not a tarot card that you read, it's a mystical energy Force that works based on your emotions, that's why the Jedi strive to be as selfless and careful and calm as they can, so that they're not putting their own feelings into the Force and saying that's what the Force wants. Who knows if Sol was right that the Force was pulling him towards Osha, I tend to think he was feeling something very genuine there, but that tragedy struck and it all went horribly wrong, dealing Osha a wound that she could never quite recover from. But also he did desperately want it and was reckless in going about it, he was unbalanced in a deeply understandable way, a way that he could just spend some time looking inward and rebalance, it's not like he was in grave danger, just a misstep that happens to any Jedi, it's normal, it happens, you recover and you find your footing again, that's what Jedi do. And that's why Jedi have to be so careful, because it's so easy to confuse what you want with what the Force is guiding you towards. It's so easy to center on your own anxieties and think the Force is warning you of a danger, when it's just your own thoughts. It's so easy to think this person was meant for you, because you care about them, and you move too fast and people get hurt. Which got me thinking about how often Masters choose the Padawan in canon, because that makes sense, too, with how hard it is to really center yourself and to be able to perceive what is what you want versus what the Force is guiding you towards. How a younger Jedi may not have the same amount of experience at that Perceiving Yourself that a Master or even a Knight would have. That Indara doesn't say Sol can't be drawn to Osha, the Force doesn't work that way, says a lot about how the Jedi and the Force work, but also the show really nailed that you have to be careful with that, it's not a magic crystal ball that you can read with impartiality no matter what mood you're in or what you wish would happen. But you need to understand yourself and what you want is something that's at the root of Jedi philosophy and action.

[maidenvault]

The Jedi didn’t throw Osha away. To suggest that it wasn’t really her choice to leave the Order because she couldn’t live up to a supposedly unfair expectation of what a Jedi is supposed to be is, well, “semantics.”

Even in this series that has implied there’s a power imbalance and some coercion when the Jedi come to Brendok to test the twins, that’s told us Sol is hiding something truly awful and probably worst of all let Mae take the blame, that suggests masters and padawans aren’t supposed to love each other when they obviously always have…it just could not be more clear to me that Osha was the problem.

She’s mostly been a really passive, avoidant character so far. Years after leaving the Order she’s still that way, not held back by anyone, but not letting herself face the pain of her past and just drifting in her life. The strongest we’ve seen her is in the flashback when she tells her mom she wants to be a Jedi. But like Anakin, now she just can’t bring herself to confront her trauma and anger and actually try to accept what happened and move on, which would be concerning to the Jedi for obvious reasons.

Some viewers are taking this as “The Order was a bad environment for her because it’s emotionally repressive so her grief just went unaddressed and festered.” And maybe the show is actually going for that and trying to make a totally wrong parallel to Anakin in doing so. But it’s read completely differently to me from the beginning. Osha tells Jecki “I couldn’t accept death like a true Jedi,” and given the context of Jecki’s kind of naive and overzealous words about the beauty of death maybe we’re not supposed to take that at face value. But she’s had a long time to mourn her family and still can’t even deal with facing Mae at first, it makes complete sense as the reason she failed.

She has to put on that helmet with sensory deprivation properties and sit with herself. Which we’re reminded in the episode is similar to helmets Jedi use in training as well. It’s the same thing that she could not do before, and it hopefully will empower her to see how Qimir may be sexy af but he's manipulating her because he just doesn’t want to be alone in his misery.

[monathedefiant]

there's so much about the acolyte that i find really fresh and interesting -- esp in this latest ep. it's such a cautionary tale around concepts that i've never seen interpreted this way. . .

sol and torbin allowing their emotions to drive them down a destructive path. they're not rewarded for their impulsiveness. rather, everything goes terribly wrong because of their failure to check themselves and regulate their responses to the world around them.

(side note: i understand they thought the children were in danger. and if that were the case, their actions would be heroic. in this situation, tho, it's just giving "social worker assumes the worst about a family's cultural practices they don't understand so they decide immediate removal of the children is the only option." which is wild considering the (inaccurate) children snatching allegations against the jedi. but go off kings??)

indara being ignored or talked over while giving good advice being equated with why things go so wrong. she's not framed as a staunchy jedi too obsessed with protocol to take necessary action. instead, the narrative frames her embracing the jedi way as a source of reason. which makes me sad about her death all over again because she got put in such a tough situation and was really doing the best she could with the mess before her.

mother aniseya is ready to let osha go even though it breaks her heart. the show presents this as her honoring osha's wishes over her own desire to keep her daughter at home. meanwhile, mother koril's unwillingness to let go puts mae in a position to cause a level of harm that she quickly loses control over. it's a very jedi concept experienced through non-jedi which i really enjoyed.

all that mixed in with the show's format is just so fascinating to me. like we knew from jump that Something Bad happened. but the buildup and the payoff really sells the whole story for me.

also i don't think the acolyte leans toward being anti or pro jedi. but it does lend nuance to the story of the jedi in a way that they're usually robbed of completely. the jedi aren't perfect and the show has shown time and time again it's willingness to explore that. plus, i would argue that the acolyte has the most compelling jedi fight choreography of any of the new star wars projects.

(disclaimer: i'm just going off of my own interpretations. i haven't read interviews with the cast, creator, or writers because i care more about how the show makes me feel then i do what about their intentions so🤷🏾‍♂️ and i care even less about what haters of the show have to say.)

this show has given me things beyond my wildest dreams. i can't wait to see how this story concludes ^-^

[raleighrador]

I think there is 2 different lines of thought here but this is too long anyway so I will only respond to the first:

Is it a "No True Scotsman" to claim Sol and Sifo-Dyas are not representative of the Order and therefore cannot be used as example to illustrate flaws in the Order?

My response to the specific examples of flaws in the order (I cannot speak to anyone else but I do get the general theme of "Jedi critical" you are alluding to). This response is already too long so I won't respond to these for now.

On the first point:

As I understand your point it is quite literally a no true scotsman fallacy. You are saying that criticisms of specific Jedi (and pointing out by example that these Jedi don't live up to the assumed ideal) don't work as criticisms of the institution because these individuals aren't representative and no true Jedi (one acting in line with the code and the council) would do so.

There's a few issues with that: Sifo-Dyas was a very senior master, Sol on Brendok is clearly at least a knight, Indara is also a master. These are - according to the Jedi - very qualified and senior representatives of the institution. They have gone through years of training and promotion. Post Brendok Sol goes on to receive more promotions. So even the Jedi think they are good representatives of their own institution.

I find it interesting that you think Indara is one of the good Jedi, who presumably is representative of the Order. It in effect relies 1) on believing that she lied for Osha and not the Order and 2) that this was a good decision. That would mean Indara still fulfils the criteria of being selfless & wise.

On 1) we have no real reason to believe Indara. She hasn't supported Osha's "dream" at any other point, in fact she has been loudly sceptical of its existence and challenged Sol to make sure it wasn't HIS dream. We also, textually, have just been shown a whole episode of Jedi making bad decisions for selfish reasons dressed up with justifications. Sol was worried about the girls and the Force told him there was a bond. Torbin wanted evidence of a Vergence. Why do you think Indara is any different?

On 2) we know, explicitly, the cover up was a terrible decision. It didn't do much to help Osha become a Jedi seeing as she left anyway, it resulted in a bunch of Jedi dying, and it has somehow contributed to the reemergence of the Sith (and presumably leads to this emergence being covered up given the Council aren't aware of them in Episode 1).

FWIW I also think Indara is a good representative of the Order - I just also think she is as flawed and problematic as the Order as a whole.

It is also not clear to me that any of these people are actually acting counter to the Code or the will of the Council.

When the Jedi believe Sifo-Dyas ordered the army (btw I see in your tags that your understanding is that Dooku/Tyranus ordered the Clones. I agree with you on that - my understanding of events is Sifo-Dyas working with the recently ex Jedi Dooku placed the order, Dooku then killed Sifo-Dyas and co-opted the plan, and from that point onwards was directly in charge of the project in his Tyranus persona. That is why Jango was recruited by Tyranus, and why the Kaminoans were in on the chips basically from day 1 - but in Episode 2 the Council still believe that Sifo-Dyas placed the order, based on what Obi-Wan hears from the Kaminoans. The whole Tyranus thing only emerges later in the TCW tv show, about 2.5 years after Episode 2) they don't actually seem to disagree with his decision or criticise it. Windu confirms that whomever placed the order for the army didn't have the authorisation of the council, and Yoda warns Obi-Wan to assume nothing but they don't actually condemn the decision. They seem unhappy about it, sure, but they don't do anything about. More than that they later go on to assume command of the Army - which is an explicit endorsement. More than that - while they know that they didn't order the army, and didn't even predict it, the Senate DOES believe the Jedi used their magic power to foresee the need for an Army. So they not only endorse the deacon they co-opt for their own benefit (the benefit being they maintain their position of influence and get to assume direct control over the army). In what way then did Sifo-Dyas act counter to the Council or the Code if they post fact legitimise his decisions? They clearly ultimately decided that the decision was fine/acceptable/tolerable/creditable. I am happy to agree that they were not mega happy enthusiastic about it but they did literally zero to distance themselves from the decision. They ultimately publicly endorse it.

In smaller ways I think Sol and Indara's decisions are effectively coopted and legitimised in the same way. Indara explicitly endorses (not privately or personally, she clearly is unhappy, but publicly and effectively) Sol's decision and helps cover it up. She protects him from any consequences. If what Sol did really was so counter to the Code and Council (or higher Jedi authority at lower levels) that it is basically totally foreign to the institution then it shouldn't be possible or acceptable for Indara to internalise what he did (and its consequences) and fold it into BAU. That she was able to suggests to me that there is massive lack of credulity that smacks distinctly of deliberately constructed plausible deniability in the Jedi Order. The sequence of events from the Council's perspective is: Indara messages us to tell us about the coven and how Sol wants to take the 2 girls. We say no. The next thing we hear is that all the women died, so did one of the girls, in a fire the dead girl started. The Jedi team was close enough to rescue one of the girls, but no one else, Torbin sustained meaningful injuries. Why wasn't the Council's reaction: wtf? How do you know the dead girl started the fire? How did Corbin get injured? How do you know no one else survived? Why do you all have smoke and ash on your outfits that make it seem like you were in there for a while? We are going to send a team to investigate and establish what happened. Wait why does it look like there was a lightsaber fight, why does this witch have a saber wound through her chest? Holy cow the dead girl isn't dead at all! Instead their reaction seems to have been: damn that's crazy and so sad anyway good job everyone. Kelnaca disappears into the woods and Torbin takes a vow of silence that lasts for 10 years and still no one questions what happened on Brendok? That is just an astounding (and I would argue deliberate) lack of interest. We see more of this when Vernestra deliberately decides to not reveal the investigation to the Council, instead to deal with it themselves, and this decision (and the logic that if we tell the council they have to tell the Senate and that is bad) is accepted by a room full of other Knights and Masters. When bad stuff happens, senior Jedi keeping it a secret from other more senior Jedi so we don't have to report it is clearly a relatively normal/unsurprising thing. That looks like a culture of silence and cover up to me. That looks like - deliberately designed or organically evolved - mechanisms for an institution to selectively shield itself from decisions it doesn't like but co-opt ones it does.

And again - Vernestra is meant to be a rock star Jedi, the other Jedi in that room are Knights and Masters. These aren't random Palawan's who don't get it, who haven't fully internalised what it means to be a Jedi, who don't understand the Code, who have no idea about how the Council makes decisions or the sorts of decisions it would make. Vernestra specifically is clearly some kind of local authority by context and Ki-Adi-Mundi later joins the Council. These aren't randoms, these are some of the best and brightest, future leaders of the Order, many of whom are already in positions of significant authority.

This kind of behaviour clearly IS in line with that the Code and Council teaches and demonstrates on a systemic level, what these Jedi have learned from other Jedi, if it is so endemic.

So either Sifo-Dyas and Sol are actually behaving in ways that are reconcilable with the Code and Council, acting in ways that can be internalised without creating an insurmountable contradiction, and so are effective representatives (and therefore examples that illustrate a critique) or... they aren't true Jedi but neither are Indara, Bernestra, Ki Adi Mundi, Mace Windu or Yoda.

the inadvertent reference mother aniseya makes when she says it will get all the jedi killed eventually is not to qui-gon taking in anakin leading to the jedi's fall, but to SIFO-DYAS. sifo-dyas canonically has the gift of foresight and sees that a war is coming and wants to commission an army and the jedi council is like girl what the fuck no. we aren't a fucking army, and kicks him off of it. he goes and commissions it in secret, gets killed, and dooku and sidious then take over the project without anyone knowing. and anakin himself does cause the jedi's fall - having the Chosen One on his side is helpful for sidious, but he already had the Order 66 chip situation in motion from the jump before they even FOUND anakin. much like sol in this episode, it is sifo-dyas with good intentions working OUTSIDE the jedi's rules and without his colleagues approval, on his own feelings through impulse that causes others' downfall.

and i know there's a lot of jedi critical analysis out there about how their "arrogance" led to their downfall but i always find it reductive and this episode really nails that home. the jedi as an institution and belief system, at least in these cases, were in the RIGHT. it was 1 jedi working on his own, with his own interpretation of what the force is telling him, that fucks everyone else over. this isn't to say they don't have their faults that made them easier to manipulate, but that's true of any group.