#so it's likely we're within similar fandom circles

[warlordgab]

Analysis of shipping: Found family and pseudo-incest?

Last year I was requested this rebuttal to detractors, but it took a long time to make because it was hard to pinpoint where these arguments came from

But, after one perceptive individual nailed it right on the head, I finally had something to work with

So, let's start with the argument: "These characters can't end up together because they're like family/siblings, so that would be incest"

This isn't unique to one single fandom. Antis had used this reasoning against NaLu and similar pairings in the past, based on the fact Natsu and Lucy belonged to the same guild, a community that treated its members as "family"

Needless to say, they stopped using it after seeing how Mashima made pairings like Gajeel and Levy, or Gray and Juvia, pretty much canon. Making it clear that romantic relationships between members of this particular circle or community were perfectly fine (That doesn't mean cheating is fine though!).

But, this argument still persists in other fandoms. One Piece is not the exception, where the anti-LuNa crowd constantly tries to paint all romantic potential between Luffy and Nami as "incest" because they're "siblings."

Let us address something first, what's incest?

"Sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry"

- Merriam-Webster, 2024

"Marriage or sexual intercourse with a relative within the prohibited degree of consanguinity. In other words, incest is sexual contact between close blood relatives"

- LII / Legal Information Institute, 2024

After 1000+ chapters worth of story, nothing implies Luffy and Nami are related by blood. So, where does the argument comes from?

In reality, antis are using a concept people don't often hear about: pseudo-incest

It's not a widely known term, in fact, it's not even in the Oxford English Dictionary (OEA), the Cambridge Dictionary, or Merriam-Webster.

However, we can still find some defintions that helps us to understad what do LuNa detractors mean with this?

"Sexual involvement between family members who are not blood relations (e.g., siblings by adoption, stepparents and stepchildren, in-laws)."

- Wiktionary, 2024

Once, again we hit another wall, since Luffy wasn't adopted by Nami's family, nor Nami was adopted into his. So, why do antis claim they're "like" siblings?

Let's go from the minor statement to the big one. The first argument is that "The have a sibling-like dynamic"

This is one is odd, because it can come from actual unawareness about the nature of relationships, or the malicious use of the common traits seen in all sorts of human connections

After all, all healthy relationships, either being with relatives, companions, or potential romantic partners, are defined by affection, shared values, support, and sometimes a little bit of discord and/or conflict

If we were to use these traits to label the connection between two characters as that of "siblings," we could describe a lot of official pairings (and potent relationships) from a huge lot of stories as "siblings" instead of lovers/spouses.

Let's use a potent relationship as example: Sabo and Koala feel affection for one another, share similar values, support each other, and may have an argument from time to time...

...does that make them "siblings"? What about Ace and Isuka? Does the combination of affection, support, and occasional conflict rule out any possibility of a relationship upgrade?

If we apply this "measurement" to official pairings from other series, we're likely to jump to similarly flawed conclusions about their relationships.

However, even if there are similarites, there are several differences. For bonds outside our family circle. we may see chosen affinity, sometimes a greater attachment and/or emotional codependecy, a strong passion, and even a deeper sense of compromise coming from the willing choice of those involved.

Potent relationships have all of this, even if they're yet to become canon. And due to their emotional chemistry, LuNa seems more like a deep companionship with the potential to evolve rather than a sibling-like bond

However, that was just the minor statement from western fans. We may deduce some say this because they can't picture a romantic relationship without one (or both characters) being a total simp; perhaps they're so used to the "loveable perv" trope, that their idea of romance relies how horny the characters act with one another; or maybe they just too enamored with the cool good-looking buff guy to acknowledge anything deep, but I digress...

Still, we're yet to address the elephant in the room, the bigger argument, which is a combination of two things:

Just like some anti-NaLu fans did ages ago, a lot of anti-LuNa fans take their "sibling" argument from the same place every other permutation of this reasoning came from, a misuse of another concept: Family of choice

Family of choice, Chosen Family or Found Family, all refer to a group of people who willingly stick together to provide each other with the sense of community and belonging, as well as a feeling of affection, joy and security inherent to a functional family, without being related by blood.

It's seen as an alternative to those who faced rejection from their biological family, or society itself, and even to people who lost their relatives to tragedies or disasters.

It's a useful literary device to develop characters due to how flexible it is, given that members of these groups don't need to fill particular roles for their relationships to work, which provides authors with a lot of freedom in terms of writing.

However, some detractors have been abusing the "family" part of the term to argue against pairings that have enough development and history together for a natural relationship upgrade. How?

By limiting each character to a specific role: Father, Mother, Sibling, etc.

This allows them to claim, that characters within "Found Families" cannot become couple because that would be pseudo-incest.

As some people already noticed, this makes no sense; it replaces the versatility of the trope with a far more rigid, static, and limited form of narrative; and goes against what the idea of "Found Family" was supposed to be, which is an alternative to "family," not a carbon copy of the traditional family structure.

So, how does this argument survives logic and reason?

Well, here's the elephant in the room: in the SBS Volume 48, Oda was asked the question: "If the Straw Hats really were an actual family, who would be the dad, and who would be the mom?"

The following was Oda's answer:

Dad: Franky (Thug)

Mom: Robin

First Son: Zoro

Second Son: Sanji (Punk)

Daughter: Nami

Third Son: Usopp

Fourth Son: Luffy

Youngest: Chopper

In the SBS Volume 50, Oda added Brook would be the "Grandfather" "If you Likened the Crew to Family".

Here we have another example of a quote taken out of context, because the question was 'if they really were an actual family', and Oda later framed his answer as "Position in the crew if they were a family."

It was never about the strawhats being "an actual family," it was merely mindless fun with a "what if." To drive that point home, Sanji still gets horny for both Nami and Robin, yet nobody in their right mind would accuse him of lusting after his "sister" and "mother," because they're not actual relatives.

And this leads us to a couple of plot twists: all of this started because of the song "Family" performed by the strawhats seiyuus which, while invoking the "Found Family" trope, includes the following statement:

"We're not relatives… we're not even siblings!" (親戚じゃなくて　兄弟じゃない)

Which pretty much kills the "they're like siblings" argument used by detractors to liken LuNa to pseudo-incest.

The second plot twist comes from the SBS Volume 99, Oda says that if the cew was an actual family Jinbei would be the "father," replacing Franky who would now be given the position of "pervy granny"

This proves two things. First, that such "positions" are neither "fixed" or "absolute," they're malleable and can be changed or altered at any given moment.

Second, that this "Family" thing amounts to a mere joke, it's just a silly little game with no real impact on the story and characters. Although the idea of Frobin Vs. Jinbin(?) sounds amusing, but I digress.

So, what's the conclusion?

Even if the strawhats are an example of "Family of choice," that doesn't make the greatest potential relationship upgrade within the crew problematic, it all depends on how the author handles the situation. And given Oda is a top tier writer, we got nothing to worry if he decides to pull the trigger

And, despite what huge players within the community said before, Oda never claimed the strawhats were "an actual family." So any accusation of pseudo-incest, whether subtle or direct, is just the result of general ignorance, misinformation, and/or personal agendas

BONUS

There are times in manga/anime when one character refers to another as brother/sister/sibling, despite not being related.

One example would be Winry from Fullmetal Alchemist, who claimed Edward is like a "brother" to her. However, given that they're not related, nothing stopped them from falling in love, ending up together, and having children...

If we rely on the same reasoning used by antis, we could conclude this relationship is problematic. However, even if they have some moments when Winry goes ballistic on Ed...

...nobody in their right mind would dare to say their relationship is akin to pseudo-incest.

Oddly enough, we have a case in One Piece, when one character (Kinemon) made a similar brother/sibling claim to Tsuru, using a similar reasoning to that of Winry's...

I'll give you three guesses on how these two ended up, the first two don't count

[kradogsrats]

Thinking about this scene, because lbr it just kind of loops in my brain constantly so there's probably a 70% chance I'm thinking about it at any given moment.

It's easy to make the assumption that everything in Viren's dream is connected to him healing Soren, because it's a convenient place to point to and say "obviously that is where everything went wrong." It's definitely a pivotal moment in his life, and deservedly has a lot of screen time in this sequence. In some ways, it is lurking beneath all the other scenes.

But it doesn't seem to be what Kpp'Ar is talking about at any point here, like:

I always knew you'd go far. But I didn't know how far you'd go to get there.

Everything going on in Kpp'Ar's dialog—"eager student," "elegant finery," "overcome the disadvantages of your upbringing," "I always knew you'd go far"—is about ambition. Not morality or necessity, just a pure skewer of you've never done anything for anyone but yourself, and you know it.

Viren, as is the theme(tm), protests, "I had no choice. I did what I had to do," to which Kpp'Ar, again, absolutely drags him:

You made the choice you've always made. The one that gives you power.

Which, like... you could twist this to be about Soren, and start asking questions about exactly what power Viren stood to gain from healing him—my money would be on the Staff of Ziard—but I actually don't think that's at all what this is about.

This scene in Viren's dream also cuts almost directly into the Twin Peaks scene, in which Viren is king, and which itself culminates in the battered and bloody crown, i.e. his death.

So I think there's a couple things going on, here: 1) the Kpp'Ar scene (and the Twin Peaks scene, but I'll talk about that some other time) is actually referring to everything Viren did that culminated in the events of s1-s3, and 2) we as viewers are being primed by that to look at his other choices in the same critical way.

Now, you'd have to be pretty oblivious to have watched all of s1-s3 hearing Viren's constant refrain that he's doing everything he does for the sake of humanity's future, etc. etc., and been like "oh yeah, that seems totally legit." So we're basically being explicitly told here something that we already knew: everything that Viren has done, he did on some level to secure or consolidate power for himself. Some of those choices are a lot more obvious than others, but pretty much all of them circle back to power, control, and/or the "narrative of strength."

Having framed all of Viren's choices that way—particularly after he has denied that they were choices—we are being implicitly asked to consider his choice to do anything to save his son within the same framework. Was it something he had to do? Was it worth it?

For some viewers, this is the first time they are encountering the revelation that Viren saved Soren from a fatal illness during his childhood. It's a choice that is very easy to sympathize with, and one that we the deep fandom have discussed to death—seeing it for the first time, a viewer is likely to be sympathetic, or automatically believe it was justifiable. In starting with the scene with Kpp'Ar and reminding viewers of all Viren's other choices, their motivations, and their consequences, the sequence is asking us to consider this critical choice, sympathetic as it is, in that context. It's similar to the way we are asked to consider Harrow's choice regarding the Magma Titan, though much less explicit.

So, then... what's up with this?

Viren's immediate response to Kpp'Ar's statement that his choices have always been about power is the first callback to his little mantra:

I've always done what protects my family. However dangerous. However vile.

Why does he say this, when literally nothing in this scene has been about family? Well, first of all, it's another priming device for linking Viren's s1-s3 actions with his healing Soren. It's also a fun little callback for those of us whose reaction to it first being dropped in s4 was "HOLY SHIT it's the thing he said to Kpp'Ar!" in that here he is, saying it to Kpp'Ar again. But we also get told exactly why, a couple scenes later:

We have Harrow—specifically Harrow in the context of his death, the inciting event of Viren's s1-s3 spiral—linked to Viren's concept of family, and his willingness to do anything in that context, in what is a kind of hilarious contrast with, y'know, literally everything Viren did after Harrow's death.

So, as with the rest of the sequence, it's all about Viren framing himself as having no choice while he makes the absolute worst choice possible at every turn.

[myfandomrealitea]

saw ur post about going incognito into spaces and stuff and i wanted to add my own thoughts about my experience of basically being stuck in places where proshippers r hated (not against wut ur saying! i definitely agree that theres no benefits and honestly its not that fun)

the fandom that im currently in is.. very toxic. someone got harassed to the point of having to delete their account bc they "supported" a proshipper (it was literally just them saying that u shouldnt harass this person just bc theyre proship-). a lot of my friends were very supportive of this person and agreed that ppl shouldnt be harassed over shit like that and many of them seem to have similar viewpoints as me (anti harassment and all that) but prefer to stay away from that stuff

the fandom is basically ran by antis. theres a small corner that some ppl have made where they talk about proship stuff freely (love those ppl so much theyre genuinely so nice) but overall its. not the best place to be if ur proship. which is interesting to me bc theres actually a shocking amount of proshippers that just... dont say anything. on my side blog ive had multiple ppl interact that i thought were anti (or at least just. not proship in some way) but would literally go and like all my posts about incest ships of the characters.

and sometimes i think about it and how theres actually a bunch of proshippers but we're so heavily harassed and silenced that we just- dont say anything. but the fandom is small and we cant exactly separate ourselves from it if we really like the show. and i feel especially bad for some of the bigger blogs that ppl love and adore bc i know wut would happen if somehow ppl found out and made some big post or wutever.

i dont pretend to be antiship but i dont outright say im proship unless i really trust that person

im currently trying to make my own lil space with some friends so at least if anything goes wrong i at least have a few ppl but its a bit scary to think about honestly-

Although it can be full of snot-nosed superiority complexes, I do recommend using the AO3 Subreddit in order to find likeminded people for your fandom. The very vast majority of the AO3 Subreddit is proship or at least proship neutral. Antis are generally eviscerated on sight whenever they try to poke their nose into it.

If you have any other fandoms that you are active in or have friends within, there's also no harm in introducing them to your small fandom.

From what I understand the Marvel fandom did kind of the same thing you're describing with the Starker shippers, but they flourished and supported each other anyway.

I know its easy for me to simply say 'do it anyway' as someone who generally could not give a fuck about anyone's opinion of me, but honestly. Do it anyway. Form your little collective. Support each other. Learn how to write and draw and make GIFs so you feed your own portion of the fandom. You physically do not need those people, it just unfortunately takes a bit of effort and means potentially a bit less content until you start really generating your own.

Fandom spaces do not start out from nothing. Promote the shit out of your fandom. Draw people in. Comb through the proship tags and send asks to blogs like mine asking other proshippers to check out the source material.

People in small fandoms are easy to bully because you're so enclosed into this circle of the exact same people. They happen to be the majority in the room and they're weaponising it.

Force them into a bigger room.

[childlikegoblinqueen]

SCOM Last Chapter Writing Notes: Affluence, Politics, Power.

Ahhhhhhh! I keep saying this but we're really getting close to end game! I hope everyone is still enjoying the story. I know the fandom's quieted down to a few of us on the couch, but I like it here.

Anyway, thank you all for your continued support. Your encouragement/comments etc are a huge help.

Hunter was "born" into an unkind world altogether. He had one "family" member who trained him to believe that his worth was contingent on how useful and obedient he was -- when in reality he was seen as disposable.

Willow had a loving family, but dealt with bullying. She was born into a world where the ruler seemed benevolent, but was really authoritative and planned on killing her and everyone around her.

They chose to bring a child into a world they thought would be kinder.

Aside from the parenting fears and Willow and Hunter struggling through health concerns for both Willow and their child, a lot of SCOM is about how easily trauma is exploited and how some folks just seem to say and do whatever they want with few consequences.

The New Isles Government was formed to contrast Belos' rule, but it struggles with those who actually AGREED with some of his ideals and those who seem to have no guilt over the aforementioned exploitation if it benefits them.

While Belos had the delusion of being the "savior of humanity", Osran is just the latest in a long of wealthy heirs that believes he is entitled to continuing the empire his ancestors built on exploitation.

There will be a little more on this in the next chapter. Hunter is going to come face to face with his granddaughter, Langwidere (who married Boscha...) and there will be a few surprises there.

But in general, the last chapter features a flashback to the Inner Circle Trials where Hunter overhears Eda lament that a rich guy will always get away with crimes.

Maybe this is a little TOO on the nose, but it's something I feel deeply.

After Hunter is able to fight off his kidnappers in Nommeking he finds himself (and his family) in a strange place where there seems to be Grimwalker History. And not just Golden Guard Grimwalkers.

But of course, Osran shows up before this and flexes his powers in a way that neither Hunter nor the others have ever seen from an oracle.

Of course we know that within disciplines there are different special abilities that can be developed. Darius' Abomination form for instance, which Dana suggested was acquired using unethical magic practices. Perhaps to get revenge for his Mentor's "mysterious" death?

Osran also has power granted to him by his species of demon. He uses a similar magic to Kikimora's sealing spell (they are related, after all) but his version is more brutal. He also is able to remove the life forces of his opponents leaving their bodies husks until he can rejoin the two ... or at least he says he will.

Nommeking is a micro government within the Boiling Isles that rules by affluence. Of course everything eventually has to go to the New Isles Government, but first, crimes committed in Nommeking must go through the Magistrate who chosen from a pool of suggested candidates chosen from a group of Electors made up from the Houses that bring in the most Snails per year to the city. From these candidates, the Magistrate is appointed by the High Oracle.

Osran himself. And before him it was his mother, and her grandfather, and so on and so forth.

Osran doesn't particularly give away the hand he's playing though... but he certainly doesn't believe he will lose. After all, he's an aristocrat.

He also believes he's entitled to something that he was denied a long time ago.

[ghxsts-haven]

Our system was fakeclaimed by those awful subreddits. A bit ago and even a few weeks ago. We didn't see the one from a few weeks ago. But like. It's made us seriously paranoid of posting anything about our tbmc, programming, ramcoa. That we feel constantly watched. When those accounts were made as safe spaces for that shit.

That now if we dare utter it, we just get so paranoid of being watched. Terrified that our programmer will see it and find us.

But we NEEDED that safe space to be able to process it. And it makes us feel so isolated and alone. We aren't experiencing worse denial or anything. But it triggers our paranoia so bad. Especially since we have a history of harassment online, unrelated to things, most useless stuff like fandoms and all. But still. We've been fakeclaimed a lot for too many disorders, for being a programmed system, for having our fictive alters be the main Frontera and venters for this shit. Yeah. Cause every non-fictive alter is extremely personal and often more related to our tbmc and shit. The fictives are the easiest to front because they're more of a representation of our trauma and don't hold any actual trauma most of the time.

And just. Being posted and fakeclaimed, misconstrued and made to seem like we're saying every single possible alter we have is programmed, and other bs like that. While also being infantilized as just a seriously messed up probably autistic person led down the DID rabbit hole has fucked us up. It has given us worse issues and worsened our silence. When we have no professional help. When we are reliant on online safe spaces to vent and rant.

Even though it's passed largely, it forever triggers our paranoia. And as we deal with our programming, it leaves us feeling trapped. Unable to talk about it, but needing to. I fucking hate those assholes. And I fucking hate how much it has damaged our system online. When we are trying to heal our fear of online spaces and have a place to be able to vent and open up. We never reveal too much cause of our paranoia, but the fact that we have no choice and can't stop those subreddits triggers all kinds of other issues with harassment and bullying we've had growing up. And knowing damn well trying to stand up for yourself will just yield more mockery. So ignoring them is the best. I'm just so hurt and angry. Especially since it has worsened us a lot. During one of our most vulnerable times especially with a lot of other irl struggles too.

It makes us so fucking mad. And we hate that it's just a reality for systems online and especially ramcoa and programmed systems.

I'm so sorry that's happened.

We had a similar experience being fakeclaimed for our splitting- but never our RAMCOA and Programming (thankfully).

Knowing that people out there seek out people's blogs and posts, just so they can post it and laugh at horrific abuse. At torture. It's very understandable it causes paranoia. It does for us too. The people finding these though, often stumble upon them a few times then move on to the next person to be despicable to. It doesn't change the damage, but they DO move on and forget.

I'm glad it's lessened for you, but I understand the scar that can leave.

I want you to know that even though you get posted to these spaces, if you have Internet safety (never sharing your face, name, etc) your programmers cannot find you. I know it's a terrifying thought and we've dealt with it ourself, but it's not possible to find someone without a LOT of work and knowledge.

Whether you're free of them or not, you'll be safe from them online as long as you keep what may make you vulnerable within safe circles.

I hope that one day you can feel free enough to speak more openly, and you deserve that.

Fakeclaimers cannot take your lived experiences away from you. A small bit of advice I can offer is staying far away from checking those spaces- we used to, to check if we'd been posted again, but it isn't healthy to have a hypothetical in the forefront of your mind, when you should focus on healing.

This will always be a safe space for you, I hope you know that. Anon you're always welcome to come back here.

[piastrinorris]

can i ask why you ship steve and chrissy? /gen just because there's nothing to suggest they'd ever be into each other?

that's all the fun of a crackship, friend! i've spent my entire life-in-fandom crackshipping either within a fandom or as crossovers, it's just fun to use your imaginations! none of it is real so why not play around with it?

that being said, since they are pretty much my fave crackship at this point, i will take any and all excuse to ramble about them hahahaha

so first, the similarities to their home life vs school career balance. both chrissy and steve face insane amounts of pressure from their parents setting impossible standards, and try to maintain a top social standing at school (whether this has a direct influence from their family, it's not canonically confirmed). they could have easily run in similar social circles even while both in school.

both also show that they find it easy to be their more authentic selves around people who don't fit those social circles (steve with dustin, chrissy with eddie), which if you take into consideration how chrissy doesn't tell jason about her interaction with eddie, it can be argued that chrissy could benefit from watching the example of steve's "loserification" (i.e. how he's found more genuine connections with the party + robin once he stopped trying to win societal approval) because she's not being honest/authentic with jason. (to me, her and jason's relationship appears way more performative, jason seems to care more about acting out to play the hero/vigilante rather than actually grieving the loss of his girlfriend. that's total interpretation, though)

i think they would just be a really lovey-dovey couple. like, when i first heard about them as a concept my first thought was literally "cheerful golden retriever meets clueless golden retriever". they both have a lot of love to give (i'll get into that) and they deserve to receive that same amount of affection and outward love.

more specifically, if you think back to steve's "six little nuggets" line. i've always said that the only acceptable reason he'd say that is because he went from being someone who constantly sought his peers' and parents' approval, to someone who was able to give and receive genuine love from the party. his six little nuggets. the only way that i'll interpret him saying that in canon is because with the kids growing up (and him having no idea where or in what condition mike, will and el are), he's scared he's going to lose that kind of love. based on how quickly we can see that chrissy falls back into not only remembering the fact that she and eddie were friends in middle school, she remembers specifics. she's got a big ol' heart, as does steve.

the MULTIPLE ways you can include eddie here. maybe he plays wingman. maybe he sets them up blindly. maybe he has no idea because they sneak around him. maybe he has no idea because "we're all just best friends hanging out! and sometimes those two make out! best friends!!! :D" every trope is good.

similarly, robin. especially as a comfort to chrissy that even though robin is a Band Kid and chrissy is a Cheerleader, that has no actual effect on who either of them are fundamentally as people, and i'm sure robin would love her for who she is right off the bat. and that'd help with the whole unlearning thing. i also really like the idea of lucas being glad that she's found someone better than jason once chrissy meets the party.

i mean. they're hot and i'm bi so. there's that too lol

[acourtofthought]

Hey bestie!! So I was lurking in the Reddit (which tbh, has been improving massively…I actually saw one of the people who was nasty to me in the past terminated their account which was comforting lol but anyways)

I saw someone post about how they see similarities between Mr. Darcy and Azriel and I was like…..where? 😭

Darcy is socially awkward and aloof…Azriel is socially intelligent and calculated. Like am I tripping? What are the similarities? Besides, I suppose, the surface-level one that they’re both quiet—but their motives for being so are sooooo different. 🙈

And before you ask, yes, they do sail that way 😂

🧼💖

Hello my dear friend!!! ❤️

Isn't it nice to enjoy your online experience without being worried about being attacked by certain people in the fandom? Even though those interactions shouldn't matter, they can cause a very negative physical reaction (stress, anxiety, etc.). At least they have for me in the past.

I guess if you want get technical, Az and Mr. Darcy are both a bit arrogant at times.

But you know what? So is Rhys. So is Cassian. So is pretty much every single fae male in SJMs books. And the ways Az is arrogant versus Darcy are not remotely comparable.

Yes, Mr. Darcy is withdrawn and aloof because of struggling in certain social situations as Az can be but like you said, they are that way for very different reasons. And around his friends, it seems Mr. Darcy is forthcoming with his thoughts and emotions (given that he at first expressed his concerns to Mr. Bingley about Jane's affections towards him and later when he corrected his error). We're told by Rhys and Cassian than Azriel is closed off even with them. Az is also full of rage whereas Mr. Darcy is not.

And honestly? I think Az is calculating but I don't find him emotionally intelligent or logically intelligent at times (or even well read). He's a bit of a loose canon and I think when you're somewhat unhinged in your approach to things, it comes across as not thinking things through.

Az has prejudices against the Illyrians and Darcy had a certain opinion on those he considered "inferior" but I don't know that was so much a prejudice as being due to the fact that there were very defined classes and social statuses during that time and those of wealth normally traveled within certain circles. Which sounds a lot more like Lucien in book 1 when he had a similar mindset regarding the fae and humans (credit to SJM for addressing Lucien's past opinion of humans by having him develop a friendship with two humans (three if you count Feyre) and living in the human land for a spell. Which is sort of like Darcy correcting his mistake with Mr. Bingley and Jane, acknowledging that he misjudged the scenario and making amends).

Az may know how to behave in social settings because he's observed it and is playing the part but it doesn't read as completely sincere to me versus Mr. Darcy who is a consummate gentlemen by nature (exactly as Lucien comes across).

I get that E/riels want their pairing to be comparable to Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy but I don't see how anyone could reasonably make them more fitting of that comparison than Elucien would be. Yes, Lucien is better in social situations than Mr. Darcy but beyond that he embodies P & P. Looking over the books you see where he incorrectly judged the humans, where he acknowledged his mistakes, where he's living his life in a way that shows he's made amends. He's well spoken, well dressed, holds in his emotions even when angered as there's a proper way of handling things (and not hiding intense rage behind a façade the way Az does). He respects formality and not because he thinks it's important to others.

Anywho.....what you said 😂

I hope you're having a good week so far!!! It's nice getting a message from you ❤️

[rainbowangel110]

I know things are absolutely shit in the tags rn. I know that we might possibly lose (we still got 5 days so maybe we can turn it around) but I need to make things clear. This is a long post so bear with me.

Yes I like Alphyne. They were my first queer ship ever. I remember seeing the cheek kiss in the end credits and being so happy for them.

Speaking this as someone who was, and is still a little bit of an Undertale fan.

Y'all really can do better. Reading the tags is so infuriating as there's so musch hate from y'all. I have never in my life seen this much salt and toxicity. And I know the controversies that have happened within the fandom. I thought you guys learned something from them but apparently not.

I'll address some of the hate.

No, Huntlow isn't just a straight ship being tossed at the lesbians (for Christs sake, Alphys is bisexual y'all, it was confirmed in game with the fact she had a crush on Asgore. Get it right.) A massive portion of us HC them as bi, some HC Hunter as trans, there's loads of us who think that Willow is pan, there's some out here who HC them to be a-spec. I know the explicit cannon confirmation isn't there yet, but if you looked, you would know. To us, it's not hetero.

Not it isn't ablelist. Hunter literally cannot do magic by himself, it's part of his arc. He stated it in the third episode he appeared in S2E6. (Spoilers: I know he has magic as of S3E2 but it's not close to what the Boiling Isles "magic" is. He can't cast any spell circles, like how everyone else does) I also saw someone talk about how the "half-a-witch, makes a whole" is also ablelist. My guy, those are parallels in their respective arcs oh my god.

About people calling it a rushed ship and stuff similar to it, no it wasn't going to be if Disney didn't shorten it so hard that we literally have 3 episodes for the final season. There is art about those two from the crew that they've been holding onto for 2 YEARS. Dana has also stated that she's also had some art, but hasn't releases it yet. Meaning that if we weren't shortened, we could have had time. Development. An actual buildup similar to Lumity and Raeda! But no we only have an EPISODE LEFT OF THE SHOW. How can we possibly fit something in for them while wrapping up the plot?!

Thought so. Undertale had the advantage of not being bogged down by a multi million dollar corporation, and yet here you are.

I've seen someone say vote for Alphyne instead of the other ship cuz it sucks, and then in the next fucking tag say they've never even watched the show. What?

And just because they're not seen as queer representation doesn't mean you can't shit on the physical representation. A chubby Asian gal with two dads, self esteem issues and was bullied. A teen with cult trauma and was abused, and has the scars to show. So many people find themselves in these characters. I do so too.

I'm not here to restart a war. If I do, I take full responsibility, no need to attack anyone who defends me. You got any complaints about this reblog, take them to me. Anon asks are open.

Sorry if I pissed off anyone, I truly am. I'm just sick of the hate, the fact that people are receiving full on death threats for not voting Alphyne, people hoping that one of the characters die.

Vote who you want. I don't care. If you hate the ship, I don't care about that. You don't know us, that's fine too. But please, please, I am begging you, let everyone have fun. OP himself has come down to tell y'all to chill out. That hasn't happened with any other poll. So why here? Let this be fun. Don't spread shit, don't send death threats to people for liking what they like. We're not attacking you so why come after us?

Be civil y'all.

[astronomy-is-cute]

me wanting to post the drawings of fursonas i made for my irl friends vs the fear of them finding my tumblr: fight

[everythingispirates]

watching a video essay abt misinformation rn and it's making me think many thoughts so like. sorry in advance but I'm gonna have to do some serious talk now, if very rambly.

the whole gay pirate divorce thing is like. it's funny I've very much settled on it being funny but it has also really opened my eyes to how misinformation spreads online. like believe it or not a lot of this was very carefully planned. I had ppl peer review the screenshots, I made sure to post it when I knew ppl were gonna be online and I recruited a bunch of friends outside the potc fandom to spread the post once it was done bc I knew it wasn't going to convince anyone within this blog's "circle". and the whole thing to begin with was very much like. shameless opportunism with ofmd trending like it did, I like to think I've made that clear. I was definitely shocked at how much traction it got which was why I freaked out a bit, but it was also in one way the exact reaction I had planned on, just on a larger scale.

and like a lot of people have gotten kinda pissy when I say they should have been wary of there not being sources and I do get that but also like it's definitely something to keep in mind for the future if you got tricked by the post. like, what ppl will say is that oh it's just a disney movie it's no big deal and that's def true but at the same time it's worth reflecting on which claims we consider worthy of fact checking you know? like if something feels like it should be true, or if it's something we want to believe in or just something we don't care enough abt to question like in this case we're def more likely to just take it at face value and pass it along. and in this particular case the debunked version of the post is definitely the most popular which is kind of a relief, but like it's common knowledge that debunkings or retractions of viral misinfo rarely get as much traction as the original claims.

the thing about me is like. I'm not particularly clever or anything. this wasn't a difficult scheme to pull off, all I needed to do was keep an eye on what tumblr was into right now, remember what they'd been into in the past and do some light photoshopping. like, the whole thing was very much designed for tumblr and it was honestly kind of fascinating watching tumblr take the bait so hard. and the thing is I might have fallen for something similar for the reasons I've already listed! like that whole dinosaur king post that showed up after mine is definitely something I might have read in passing and not questioned, I'm not writing all this to point the finger at people. I'm just trying to remind you how like. incredibly easy it is to get this stuff out there. like all you need is to know the platform you're on and its userbase decently well and have some creativity, then boom you're absolutely set. like not to rattle my own bones but need I remind you that pirates of the caribbean trended, if only for a short while? and once again that was after the post had been epically debunked but at that point it doesn't really matter anymore. if I were, say, paid by disney to do this for some reason which like for the record I was absolutely not, it wouldn't matter to them that the post got debunked bc people would still be talking about potc and thinking about potc and maybe even rewatching potc like do you get what I'm getting at here? when misinfo goes gigaviral it's gonna get whatever it's about a lot of attention, even when the original claim has been proven false.

anyway my point here is like idk trust no one I guess? or at least like. the next time you see a post that sounds reasonable but has no sources remember the time I out of all people managed to trick a good chunk of the tumblr crows into rewatching pirates of the caribbean

[troped-fanfic-challenge]

Dearest Writers,

Our very first Bridgerton Event, TROPED Smut: Bridgerton, begins in just a few days and we are positively bursting with excitement! We hope that you'll join us to share your most scandalous smut fics! As this is our first Bridgerton event, we'd like to go over how TROPED works, so the newest members of our illustrious social circle can be prepared for the event of the season!

Dates:

Writing Period Begins: April 10th at 12:00am! Writing Period Ends: April 20th at 3:00am PST/6:00am EST Voting Period Begins: April 21st at 12:00am Voting Period Ends: April 23rd at 11:59pm Winners Announced: April 24th!

All times are Eastern Standard Time unless otherwise specified!

How it Works:

TROPED Smut: Bridgerton will be one of our TROPED: Choice Events! You will be tasked with selecting your favourite combination of a theme + four tropes, and writing us a scandalous, salacious smut fic for your favourite Bridgerton Pairing! Modern AU, Canonverse, Fantasy, Western, our Smut Event Masterlist is your oyster! Here's what to do:

Choose a theme for your fic from our list of themes! Any theme is permitted except for Young Adult! The themes have been well defined, but if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Choose four tropes from our list of tropes! You can, of course, use more than four tropes from our list, but only the four tropes you list will be included for voting! For this challenge, at least one of your four tropes must be a Smut trope, which are in a separate section on our masterlist! Any tropes that needed it have been defined, but if you are confused about any tropes, definition or not, let us know! We're here to help!

Pick a Pairing! For this event, any couple from the Bridgerton universe is permitted! This can include show canon couples (such as Theo x Eloise), book canon couples, or fan canon! You are not required to include an actual Bridgerton, so if you're taken with the idea of Edwina and Prince Fredrich, for example, we would love to see it! If you select a pairing that are not yet 18+ in the show universe (for example, Hyacinth x Gareth or Gregory x Lucy), you may still use them, as they are adults in the books, please be sure you make it clear that you aged them appropriately!

Write your fic! Make sure you put what your theme is and what tropes you used in your fic summary, or in the notes at the TOP of your fic, so we can keep our eyes peeled for them as we read them! If you are worried the tropes/themes will spoil your fic, you may put them in the notes at the bottom, but please let us know at the top if you choose to do so, and be sure that all of your tropes and themes are in the same place! And don't forget to have fun with it! Part of what we love about TROPED is seeing how a dozen different writers can each make a trope their own, so do what speaks to you, and if you're not sure if something will work, shoot us an ask!

Don't forget to follow our Rules! For this event, we ask that you remember: yes, this is a Smut event, however, it is not anything goes. We do not allow rape, incest, or underage. We also encourage a careful approach to pairings with significant power imbalances, so if you'd like to write teacher/student or something similar, please be careful to ensure consent is clear within your fic. (Teacher/student is NOT permitted for character in HS.) You can find a more in depth look at our rules here!

Post your Fic! A tutorial for how to submit your fic can be found here! For this event, you will enter your fics into the collection "Troped_Smut_Bridgerton"! If you have questions, let us know!

Now, here's the fun part. All TROPED Events are Anonymous!! Until the event has ended, your fic will be labelled as anonymous, and we will not share any identifying info about the authors prior to when we announce the winners! This is to ensure that fics are judged on their own merits, and to try to avoid making our event feel like a popularity contest, which can sometimes happen in a fandom! We welcome new writers, old writers, and everyone in between! (We’ve even had some people write their first EVER fic for Troped, which is so cool!!)

Voting is simple! We will make a poll with all the fics written for the event. You will vote based on the use of the chosen theme, the combined use of the four chosen tropes, and the combined use of the entire selected prompt! We also always include a few bonus polls! This event will have Best Smut, Most Creative, and, a TROPED staple, Most Unique Pairing!

For Bridgerton, Most Unique Pairing, book canon couples (Saphne, Kanthony, Benophie, Polin, Philoise, Franchel, Hyreth, and Grucy) will NOT be included! Writing a Unique Pairing is not required, your fic will still be included in all other categories for voting if you write a book canon couple, so there is no pressure, just light encouragement from us to go for it, if it’s calling to you!

After the voting, we reveal the winners and the fics, and that's that! Once the event is over, all fics will (of course) be revealed, and we are always thrilled to share any moodboards or art you may create in relation to your fics, so don't forget to tag us!

The Themes and Tropes List is now OPEN! Happy Writing!

[variousqueerthings]

alright alright, did a post as an introduction, and then also the post on "times fraser is hit on in s1 and isn't about it," which i guess we'll talk about a bit here in terms of what it is i looked out for in fraser when i read him as aspec (I don't teeechnically put any specific labels on him, but more just "the door is open to put aspec reads onto these behaviours, feelings, ideas, because they are very aspec in nature, especially when read all together" with some being more specific)

i do have things wot i often focus on in aspec reads generally, but also they don't really have to apply, i have headcanoned hawkeye pierce as aroace and that man has sex all the time earlier on in the show. the aro is actually really readable, especially because M*A*S*H does a lot on breaking down normative relationship structures and "correct Behaviours"... but that is another post for another show.....

i veer wildly into different specific ideas within each of the points, so there's a bit that's more ace-based, some musings on lovelessness and aplatonic theory, obviously a ton of aromantic stuff, a bit of nd-fraser and how that often overlaps. didn't dig into all the aspec ideas that probably could be poked at with this character, but for sure... there's a lot

SO. with fraser things i was noting was:

obviously the aforementioned getting hit on. that was probably the first thing that struck me, and then the sheer amount of mileage they've been getting out of that joke. it's very reminiscent of the famous episode in bojack horseman: "todd (who is asexual) meets his (also asexual, closeted) girlfriend's family who are all connected to the sex industry in some way, and it's a comedy of errors as an asexual tries to navigate a world that seems to be obsessed with sex in a way that is both comical and surreal - the POV is asexual for once, not allosexual trying to parse asexuality." similarly, because it's fraser's pov we're (mostly) getting it's a very aspec joke in nature, and it keeps you thinking about it by reiterating it over and over again

i have a whole thing i called "the jessica rabbit paradigm," that is, characters that are considered hot within or without a story (like jessica rabbit, and in fandom, say, the tenth doctor or seven of nine) are considered allosexual, because of projected desires from other characters, from makers, and from fans. this doesn't mean a character isn't allosexual necessarily, we see with characters like irene adler that it can mean a character is taken from the story they're in and made far more "sexually appealing" in later iterations of the same story (at least, to the makers of that later iteration). (see, every story where irene is desperately in love with sherlock and he bests her and also maybe she's a lesbian dominatrix who has the hots for him) (but also see sherlock holmes who goes through similar, if slightly more subdued, versions of this treatment) (again, elementary sherlock holmes adaptation is an outlier, because it does some veeery interesting things with sherlock, watson, adler, and moriarty with a lot of intentionality). anyway benton fraser is literally. so textbook this in canon constable benton fraser: you're jessica rabbit. an incredibly unself-aware jessica rabbit

(put fraser in a red dress stat! she'd do it and enjoy it. probably not as revealing as that one though, she's a more buttoned-up lady)

3. fraser's musings and ongoing journey of parsing out "love" is a fascinating plot-point and puts him at odds to other characters around him, who may have opinions on how to express love and be in a (romantic) relationship, but don't doubt that they have loved/do love, or question what love means to them personally. it's a thing i'd be so into continuing to poke at, probably once ive seen the next two seasons, especially as it pertains to fraser's widening circle of People Who Care For Him and how it relates to fraser's ideals of Caring For The Well-being Of Everyone. but the fact that he is having these thoughts and consciously having to parse through love-as-concept is a very aro-often-loveless experience

4. (victoria part 1): his relationship with victoria is based in Things. one of which is definitely a desire within the writing to affirm a certain degree of hetero-ness, not necessarily in order to no-homo (i assume it wasn't really occurring to the writers that fraser and ray might be shipped, idk, also i heard that paul gross heard about slash shipping and was like "great, let's do more of what the people want in future seasons, so that'll be interesting to see), but because at some point your lead simply has an opposite-sex relationship, that is simply how Stories Work still today -- although today there is a widening into Any (usually binary cis, always peri) Gender Relationship As Long As There Is A Romantic Monogamous Relationship, which speaks to some of the amatonormativity that we have yet to unlearn and the absence of language that is what queer reads have often been based on (basically, how can you Know if you don't Know. let's explore that blank space over there!)

5. (victoria part 2): so there's a lot in fraser that comes from big gaps of personal knowledge. he hasn't had any close friends in his life except for diefenbaker, who is not human (mark fck you), he's clearly very naive about sex in many ways, like i bet he's read books about it, and he may have had it (and he may have had sex with victoria on that final night), but on a personal note he shies away from talking about sex, initiating sex (at least so far we only have the one time to go by), having sex offered to him, even light flirtation is a step too far, the application of the idea of sex to the self seems to be missing a lot of the time. and then victoria happened...

6. (victoria part 3): i talked so much about the victoria's secret episodes and i think they're very interesting episodes in that they're not wanting to totally commit to anything, which initially frustrated me but now i'm leaning more and more into it, because you can sort of do what you will with what's happening onscreen. i don't personally buy any of the "Love Of My Life" stuff, i go into the version where victoria is a very good reader of people and understands a lot about fraser that he doesn't (and may also love him in her own way, but also... fraser is just a very manipulatable person, for several reasons especially with her). you kinda get this from early on when it looks like she's testing his boundaries and where he's at to see what she can get away with and then of course it becomes obvious that she can get away with everything, because this man has no boundaries, except for when someone crosses his ideals (you see this with ray too, in "juliet is bleeding")

7. boundaries: fraser is soooooooo good at Ideals and soooooooo bad at personal bodily autonomy. thank goodness ray is demanding better boundaries of him. but yeah, victoria absolutely took advantage of him, which is an interesting Thing to read into him alongside things like "lack of language," "not understanding love," because the further away from normative structures one is, the easier it is to fall prey to hermeneutical lacunae/injustices. which. is exactly how i read fraser's relationship with boundaries generally and victoria specifically. and it's a very aspec experience. it's a very queer experience generally, but considering fraser-and-sex-and-relationships, it's interesting how he doesn't initiate things, but lets things Happen To Him instead. abdicates agency, as it were. when you don't know what you don't know then how could you possibly know what your boundaries are, when what they are is perhaps so societally invisible/abnormal that it's like you're chasing something that doesn't even exist, even in the context of queerness? (like, fraser is not shopping at the local queer bookshop for asexual 101, if the bookshop even had that in the 90s) and, in addition to that... well, fraser is written as.... so submissive. so: you like a thing. you don't know how to express you like a thing. the thing is usually tied to sex. you don't want to let anyone down. you want to please. smthinsmthin body-and-self-and-agency-and-kink. it's all tangled together (which, next point) (save him BDSM club-goers)

8. kink: whatever it is they put in the water of Constable Benton Fraser, he clearly likes serving/pleasing/being useful/being pushed around, that's an interesting recurring pattern in how he reacts to certain women (victoria and meg) and has a massive overlap in terms of just who he is as a person (minus the being pushed around. not everyone is allowed to just do that. fuck you zuko). lots to still dig into here and ways to interpret how that relates to his being in the world, his idealism, his lack of introspection outside of said ideals, his scripting, his need for clearly delineated structure, etc. I also think there's a very interesting case to be made that he views what is sexual in very different ways to normative society. kink doesn't phase him, striptease doesn't affect him one way or another, and crossdressing is not a deviant act. all of these are things that normative allosexual people would see differently, more or less depending on how queer your space is. if i read fraser as kinky (and i do), then how that comes first and the potential for sex second (that is, if there is sex included in kink, rather than if there is kink included in sex) immediately puts him in an ace-sphere. basically, i could read fraser as having sex in a submissive/serving context, but not, personally, as having sex just for the sake of having sex

9. also, whilst many nd people are allo in all the ways of course, there's also a big overlap in nd'ness and aspec feelings, because once you view the world differently in big ways that obviously encapsulates love, romance, sex, bodies (your own and others, and i am interested in how fraser views his own body, but i may wait with talking about that until im through the whole show), friendships (and what constitutes a friendship), boundaries -- the general Ways Of Relating To Others. when fraser isn't "getting" that he's being flirted with, that screams nd, which overlaps with a very aspec-readable lack of understanding of the same (and also, the ways it can be unclear when he Sincerely Doesn't Notice and when he uses this trait in order to get out of a situation... what a mood, is all I can say. fraser shifting the frannie question onto ray, because he can't deal with it... what a mood). basically he's giving nd aspec where the two are intricately connected/cannot - to me - be read as separate parts of him

9. a lack of distinction in how he treats people: there's some very interesting theory, especially in loveless and aplatonic spaces, around how removing love-based hierarchies opens up the possibilities for treating people with equal dignity, regardless of how you "feel" about them personally. fraser will put frankie zuko before ray, because he knows that it's the right thing to do and nothing about his personal history with either of these two men stops him from first and foremost going by what he believes to be Right -- that's his way of interacting with the world. not personal loyalties/friendship, not cop-cult-thinking, and on the other side not personal dislike/disgust. fraser will put his life/job/friendships on hold (and sometimes in jeopardy) to help a stranger, because that is what he believes in. his strength doesn't come from love and neither, for that matter, do his weaknesses (at times they come from not knowing how to identify love and being willing to accept someone else's definition of it, see again "boundaries"), which is an interesting place to begin with a character whose raison d'etre is to save everyone one step at a time (one could argue it's what inspires people to love him, but that's a separate idea)

10. i do also think it's interesting to see how meg and ray react to him, and there may be a whole specific post for them, so here it'll just be a little nod to the fact that he is an oddity to them both (although i think meg especially is a wonderful little freak herself, just differently) and they both seem to have an instinct around him (with ray it's to stop him hurting himself in pursuit of What Is Right, taking him places, giving him rides, helping out in his cases, but it's also that recurring theme of telling him that he makes for a really bad cop) (with meg it's probably to bruise him up a bit i've gotta be honest (but consensually), that woman is like The Good Victoria and oh boy do i want to write a fic with those two women meeting), but in either case it's like fraser is one of those very cute endangered animals that looks like a jim henson creature brought to life, like, his very Self is not sustainable in the world, but there are people that will be there to help out (and i do think to be fair by end S2 he's compromised a bit more in terms of allowing himself to not be an object for Justice and knows himself a bit better and could be more of an anchor in an interpersonal relationship, rather than spreading himself so thinly that his interpersonal relationships suffer) (we'll see) (but yeah, the way he'd be dead several times over without ray)

11. at the end of the day the main thing that was a recurring pattern for me when reading fraser, as i mentioned in the previous post, is that he is very much an Other in a way that is not immediately visible, but becomes clear after like. one conversation with him. he's an attractive, capable white guy from canada, is the first impression, he's kind and polite is probably one of the next ones, and then it's that the way he views the world is incongruent with what all other people around him naturally see, do, and desire. he may express a wish to know what love is (as the song goes), or to not be lonely, but he's not out there looking for romance, sex, or friendships. he takes kindness that's offered to him, but that's not a prerequisite for handing it out in the first place. quite simply, the big thing about him is that his worldview does not appear to come from an allo set of life-goals and wants

fraser as an aspec read is like. An Ideal practically. the ability to walk through life as wholly Other and have that Otherness be a possibility -- not necessarily accepted by all, but by enough that the rest can work itself out. and to be an almost mythical figure wherever he is, because his whole self is bent towards trying to make people do what is Right. he's like a walking manifesto of what it means to exist in the world with a set of ideals that i see more in pamphlets like the aromantic manifesto or socialist anarchy than in tv-writing

now all he needs is the ability to Balance that with. not getting himself hurt so much. emotionally and physically

(there's also a whole separate thing about reading fraser as a fairytale figure that also leans into aspec reads of chaste knights and non-human beings and the like, which so often applies to aspec-coded characters, but in this case ofc he's not actually being dehumanised by the writing itself. but youknow. galahad. joan of arc. or data).

am shocked that ace!fraser seems to be a not-so-common take, he's literally one of the most asexually written characters ive ever seen on a tv screen, he's up there with bojack horseman's todd.

[thehollowprince]

Those words are trap words. They’re emotionally triggering, forcing whomever they’re accusing to take a step back, to pause and reassure people that they’re not... accusing people without actually accusing them so that they can “win the argument” / you mean like you calling and your camelotpark buddy calling Derek and Stiles "rapists" and "dangerous" and throwing the "racism" word around to harass non Scott fans and deflect any criticism toward Scott's abusive actions and behavior? We been knew

This is in response to this post I made yesterday, with this ask being quickly followed by a submission. I'm not going to post the whole thing, because it's literally just them quoting what I wrote and then writing their own little bit.

So I'll put that here

Putting aside, of course, that neither I nor @camelotpark have ever called Stiles or Derek a rapist (I'm actually confused as to where the Stiles accusation comes from), but this is a clear representation of what I was referring to in the post I linked above.

Not only are they demeaning people who have suffered SA by mocking it (the use of quotation marks is giving me sarcastic mocking of real victims vibes), but they're again trying to make it seem like racism isn't an actual thing in fandom. Which, I have to say, if you believe that at this point, you are willingly burying your head in the sand, but I digress.

But the thing that needs mentioning is that they're doing exactly what I talked about previously. They're throwing out as many emotional buzzwords out as they can "logically" fit into whatever they're ranting about, in the hopes that either those of us who get these messages, or those that read them once they're posted, are going to be confused and off balance, hoping that our emotional response to those words will outweigh the cold hard facts of the show that we're talking about. That's why they also try to drag our personal lives and character into the conversation, in a way to "discredit" us. It's a tactic you see often used by lawyers, discrediting the witness to have their testimony thrown out as biased or false.

That's why they continously mention aspects of @princeescaluswords private life, using the fact that they admitted that they were once a registered Republican (don't know if they still are) and the reputation that party now has in an effort to get people to ignore them when they call out racism within the fandom.

It's smoke and mirrors.

It's that old razzle dazzle.

It's a distraction technique and nothing else. And they will cling to it with the desperation of a drowning man because they know that they can't back up their accusations against Scott (or Deaton or Braeden) or their absolution of thr actions of Derek (or Stiles or Peter) with the show itself.

I'll conclude this by circling back to the "point" they thought they were making in these submissions. I have never called Derek Hale (a fictional character) a rapist. I have merely pointed out the predatory nature of his recruitment of three vulnerable teenagers, and how such actions are similar to not only Peter, but what Kate personally did to him.

Watch the show if you don't believe me.

[gffa]

I know I've brought this up before, but how much of the fandom reception of the prequels do you think stemmed from the genre dissonance? That the prequels, genre-wise, are closer to high fantasy, while the OT is more an adventure/space western/underdog triumph story.

The prequels also have elements more reminiscent of a romantic period/court drama/Shakespearean tragedy, while if you consider the underdog angle of the OT, the OT also seems kinda similar to some of those inspirational movies about sports teams or something, or a shonen anime with the "Power of Friendship".

I'm just saying, these are rather disparate genres that tend to attract different demographics of people.

And not many people tend to be... great about understanding why they don't like something, much less putting it into words, or understanding that they can dislike something without that something being actually bad. (For example, instead of "I just don't really like [thing]," the usual statement is something along the lines of "[thing] absolutely sucks.")

So the usual response is trying to find (and gather) solidarity while putting down or being condescending towards any dissent, and trying to justify their own dislike. (*gestures vaguely towards pineapple on pizza*)

And historically, it's not uncommon for people to... react strongly towards things they find... different or abnormal, which they judge based on themselves, their emotional response to something, and what they're used to.

Looking at kids, this behavior is... fairly normal. "You're weird," "ew, why do you like that, that's gross," "that's stupid," and so on. A lot of kids/teens/young adults also get defensive really easily. And let's face it--adults are basically just older, taller kids who've had to deal with more of life.

(To be honest, I also get defensive really easily. A lot of people do, and it's... it's normal. The defensive reaction can be lashing out, denial, or just being passive-aggressive or staying silent and tuning it out or mentally rolling your eyes at it. But I'm trying to work on it, because just because it's normal doesn't mean it's a good reaction.)

So, what I'm wondering is whether some fans dislike the prequels simply because it's a different genre...

...but instead of realizing that, they try to defend and justify their dislike by pointing fingers and criticizing whatever stood out or looked different from the OT or cherry-picking details/taking things out of context or making negative conflations (that can be refuted).

Because it's not about logic, it's about how they feel. And people want to feel justified and validated, and we want to feel like we're right and we enjoy staying in our comfort zones. So... yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LOL, okay, this response is going to be really disjointed because I went off in like a dozen different tangents and even then it's not enough to cover everything, so just kind of read this in a Scattered Thoughts Nerd kind of tone, where I'm staring off into the distance because Navel Gazing Gets Me Going Sometimes. 😂 In my experience, it's sort of a mix. I don't hang around a lot of people who dislike the prequels (in the sense of dismissing them/not being fannish about them) because, well, that's the heart of my interest in Star Wars, so our areas of interest basically don't really overlap that much, so I don't have a chance to talk to a lot of people and find out their reasons or even how they dislike the prequels, in the bigger trends of fandom. I do think there's an element of what you're talking about, that sometimes people can't just dislike things because it's not their genre of choice, that's absolutely a part of it. Mostly because that's how a lot of people react to anything they don't like (and it's something I and literally everyone else has to work on), there has to be a reason for it that it's objectively bad and, like, I have experienced a lot of people getting mad because I like something in a different way than they do. And I don't mean just in Star Wars fandom, but in almost any given fandom--if someone likes something in a way someone else doesn't, if they talk loudly about it (even within their own space), then there's always a contingent of people who have to find a reason why that person is objectively wrong (or even try to make them morally wrong), rather than just shrugging and going, "We see things differently, my view on things doesn't overwrite theirs and their view on things doesn't overwrite mine." It gets more complicated in instances where fandom attitudes genuinely can be hurtful, especially when they're overlapping into the way real people are treated, likes/dislikes don't 100% exist in a bubble, especially when it comes to queer fans, fans of color, disabled fans, mentally ill fans, etc. But that there are a lot of instances where fandom culture has always been--and is increasingly so--contentious and it's hard to chill out when someone is always screaming at you, when the atmosphere of the fandom is always so intense. Further, there's also an element of how fandom has always been--and also is increasingly so--about personal resonance, personal emotional investment, interpretation, and meaning. That sometimes we identify with something so deeply that we feel attacked when someone else likes or dislikes something we feel so strongly about, something that we feel is a reflection of ourselves, and I see a lot of that as well. And this, too, often crosses over into lines of how the context of how we treat characters can be reflections of how we treat real world people, but that there's no monolith here as well. For example: I make fun of Anakin, this angers some people, because how dare I not take this fictional victim 100% seriously, despite that I have repeatedly said that Anakin is the character I most identify with, that things I make fun of him for are ones that I resonate with personally. I'm not disrespecting mentally ill people, especially considering that Anakin is not bound to a single interpretation on this front--he is not canonically mentally ill, no matter how easy it is for us in fandom to map much of that onto his character or, in my case, feel that so much of what I see in him are things I struggle with myself. By and large, the majority of the people I see (at least on tumblr) who make fun of Anakin are doing so within the same vein, that they're being silly about him on things that they personally relate to. (My experiences on this are not universal, I cannot speak for the whole of even any one part of fandom, only my own sphere of experience, but this is what I've seen.) As always, it's fine if someone doesn't vibe with my style or they find that it's not their thing because they do take him more seriously, but that preference does not make my jokes

suddenly not have the context that I relate a lot to what I see in Anakin. In contrast, the way some of the fandom treats Mace or Finn isn't just personal all the time. Not liking their characters isn't inherently racist, but the way they're consistently, consistently treated sure as hell speaks to a larger pattern of racism in fandom and doesn't come without that context. It's the same with Rey--is there a huge vein of misogyny when it comes to her character? Abso-fucking-lutely there is. Things Luke and Anakin get a pass on, Rey is raked over the coals for. Is everyone who dislikes Rey a misogynist? Not even close. Some don't like her because Finn was used as a prop for her story. Some people don't like her because she got sucked into Kylo Ren's story too much. Some just don't care for the way she was written for other reasons. Some just don't vibe with her. It's fine. Nothing is a monolith. And to circle this back around to what you're talking about--it's hard to judge, both because no part of fandom is a monolith in their reactions, but also because we're only hearing from a selection of the fans. How do you know how many people who aren't fans of the prequels, who just don't care for them because it's not their genre, but just go about their day? You don't hear from a lot of them because they moved on to things they do like, so it seems like they must not exist--except, they do, and they're just out there doing things they like more. We only hear from the people who feel the need to tell others they dislike the prequels for this reason or that reason, some valid, some less valid, etc. Ultimately, I do think there's probably a fair amount of genre dissonance for why people dislike the prequels and channel that into "they're objectively bad" and get defensive when people like them and say they were great, but only because that's true of anything anywhere. But that it's only one small slice of the bigger picture (and there's a lot of stuff that I had to eschew in the writing of this response as well because it can be a pretty sprawling topic), where there are tons of reasons and reactions that people have, as well as they're perfectly free to dislike the prequels for whatever reason they do or don't have, it doesn't really affect my opinions, unless they're trying to shove it in my face or are being a dick to those who disagree with them.

[mcpiejeff27]

How to Scale the Popularity of a Fandom or Media

Written by: Me!

DISCLAIMER

This is not scientifically proven nor is it objective. I made this up because I thought it would be funny

Source: Bro, trust me!

There is no quantitative data to back up my claims. All of this are based on experience and bias.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who wants to know the popularity level of the media we enjoy or take part in. Usually, this things are measured by the amount of active users, fan contents, interactions, and publicity. However, those factors rarely have a definitive group and I don't think there's an official scale to measure it (if there is, then I apologize for my laziness in reading). So, I made up my own scaling system to measure how popular a certain fandom or media is. Completely subjective and utterly disagreeable. But hey, it works for me. In what aspect? I don't know! You may see this as a schizo post, but to each there own. So, there are seven tiers:

OBSCURE The basis of them all. No matter what media you consume or what fandom you take part in, it will always start at this level. If a media is at the Obscure level, it means that the said media is almost non-existent or very slept on by the masses. The people who participate are the ones who have heard or known the existence of the media prior to their official release (i.e. through a trailer or closed beta gameplay). These people are what I like to call "The Progenitors": people who was there when the media was in development. Numbers of fan contents and fanbase interactions are close to none, but not zero. From here on out, is up to the fanbase and the creator of said media to rise up the ranks.

NICHE A media would enter this level when it has already established a definitive fanbase. Even though the numbers are miniscule and the media itself is still heavily slept on, at least it can be at peace knowing that there are genuinely interested in it. The member includes the Progenitors from the previous segment and new recruits are from those who have VERY specific tastes that the media somehow managed to cater. Fanbase interactions are limited to the fandom's inner circle. The number of fan contents and content creators are very few, but very dedicated. For instance, there could be, like, 20 creators (fanartists, fanfic writers, etc.) in a fandom, but when they create a fanwork of that specific media, they always go all out.

WELL-KNOWN Now we're getting somewhere. Once a media reaches this level, the number of members and fan creators starts to gradually increase in size. The fanbase discussions and interactions are still within the circle, but is very vocal. So much so that people from outside that community can hear them clearly (mostly by accident such as from memes that contain inside jokes from that media or fandom). At this point, those people would either join it or simply not interested in it. It doesn't matter. The main point is that the voices are heard and they would only get louder.

RELEVANT Similar to Well-Known, but even bigger and better. The number of fan contents and creators are considerably plentiful. The group interactions are not limited within the fanbase, but people from outside the fandom or don't consume the affiliated media directly can easily enjoy and actively participate. However, it is at this level we are introduced with the toxic side; the 1% of loud minority who are very vocal on expressing their toxicity. But remember, even though they seem loud, they are still manageable.

POPULAR The cream of the crop. All media and fandom strive to be in this tier. The active members are at a comfortably high level and are well fed with the bountiful amount of fan contents. Overall, it's a perfect level to feel content with. The downside? The number of toxic members also grow along with the fandom, which sucks but it's the consequence of population growth. Just hope and pray that the fandom or media doesn't overachieve or do anything drastic or else that 1% toxicity might get reeeaaaaaalll big.

MAINSTREAM The golden age for a media. Being in this tier means that the fandom or media in question has a VERY high count of active members internationally and there is almost no outsider who hasn't heard about or recognize it. However, this cause immense pressure to be able to cater the billions of fans and to not make a single mistake that can be their self-destruct button. Not only that, the number of toxicity is almost close to half and more vocal than ever before. But hey, price of fame.

IMPURITY OF MEDIA When a media or fandom became too popular or when the ones responsible for creating and maintaining set media pressed the previously mentioned self-destruct button, they belong to this tier. The toxic side is far from a loud minority anymore, thus silencing the people who actually care for the media. Not only that, the outsider will only know and recognize the toxic side of the fandom without even giving the good side a chance. The only way to revert from this state is to purge it thoroughly, cleansing the fanbase and the media itself back to its former, obscure state, by all means necessary. (Also, I did not base the name from Library of Ruina btw please play Library of Ruina)

That's all for my 10 PM delusional post, I guess. Where do you think you fandom belongs? Let me know!

[toy-powerhouse]

I'm not entirely sure if I'm the intended audience for this post. In some ways, I'm a fan of Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, but on the other hand, I'm very critical of the series. I can definitely relate to and agree with the three issues you have with this adaptation of TMNT.

First, the majority of the series is definitely too fast-paced and unfocused. "Wacky" quips and pratfalls are prioritized above all else, often leaving little room for world building, plot, story arcs, character development, etc. Albeit, it does become somewhat more focused by season two, but it's too little, too late by that point.

Second, Leo's personality is a huge departure from most other adaptations of TMNT, and it can take some getting used to. While there was a lot of potential to take this new personality in an interesting direction, that never really happens (please refer to the first issue as to why that's the case). However, if you do want to see his characterization at its peak, the season 1 finale and season 2 opener are the best examples.

Third, I'm really sorry that your experiences with the Rise side of the fandom were hostile. It's awful that anyone would make you feel unwelcome in a space that should be more accepting. For me, at least so far, the Rise of TMNT fandom has been pretty welcoming and accepting of different, more critical opinions about the series. Even if the fans were less accepting of dissenting takes, there's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion about media even if it may seem unpopular within certain circles of the fandom. Good luck with future fandom engagement, and stay safe out there.

I'd say that if you're struggling to watch the series past the first 10 episodes, it's totally fine for you to move on from it and stop watching it. Just because you like a franchise, you don't have to force yourself to consume or like every bit of content associated with it. It's always perfectly fine to have a least favorite or even disliked installment in a franchise. However, if you're like me and, while put-off by the series but are still intrigued by it, its flaws, and its untapped potential, you can keep watching to form a more well-rounded opinion about it. Rise of the TMNT is a very fascinating installment of TMNT in how messy and unsuccessful it is as a whole. There is good in it, absolutely. However, the bad or just plain mediocre outweighs much of the good. Personally, I'm invested in continuing to examine the series, how intricately flawed it is, and why it failed to connect with most viewers while also gaining a very devoted cult following. If you'd like to see more of my thoughts about Rise of the TMNT so far, please see my review of it here: Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Disappointments: A Brutally Honest Review of Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Honestly, I'm just excited to see another TMNT fan who had a similar experience as mine with Rise of the TMNT. Within the fandom, I feel like there are so few of us who are vocal about our discontent, and it's nice to see that we're not the only ones.

Also, if you're struggling with watching the TV show and getting used to Rise Leo, the movie is actually, somehow, much worse. Leo's insufferable in it. Would not recommend the movie for good or even decent Leo characterization.

Rise of the TMNT fans, I need your advice. I'm a huge TMNT fan from the early 2000. I've watched and loved every single movies, shows and comics in the franchise (yeah, even the strange one like the 90s TV show and the Bay movies. I just really love the turtle bros)

The only one I haven't watched in its entirety so far is ROTTMNT. I started watching it when it came out in 2018 and I thought it was so good! It is different from other iteration, as expected with every new TMNT shows. This is what I love with this franchise, and Rise follow up right in its predecessor's path. But three things kept me from going past the first 10 episodes:

1. This show is overwhelmingly fast to me. The brothers are trowing jokes and quips so fast and it never really stopped to breath for 10 seconds. The lack of clear storyline didn't help this feeling, since it didn't give me an anchor to focus on while the other stuff is being thrown on screen as fast as Sonic throw himself at a chilly dog. 2. I know it's more of a ''me problem'', but Leo is SO different, it's literally difficult for me to think of him as the same characters as his other iterations. I love when the writers change things with the turtle's personality since it keeps the franchise fresh, but it was never to THIS extend. Watching rottmnt felt like entering a room where everything has been shifted a little bit to the left, as expected, and then you realize that someone has replaced the couch by a huge ping sofa. I'm still not sure how to deal with the pink sofa. I've never had one before. Also the sofa has the same voice and personality as Dewey from my favourite 2010s show, which is probably 50% of the reasons why it's hard for me to love him now that I think of it.

3. Terrible interactions with people in the fandom that were quite mean (I've felt Now, here's my question to rottmnt fans: should I give this show another go? Will it get less overwhelming and more focused with time? Will Leo grow into the character he's supposed to be, while keeping the traits that make this version of him so unique? Is the fandom welcoming, or treat me like garbage because I like, praise and critique most of TMNT medias, including some that are really different from Rise?

I really want to like this show. I don't want it to be the only one I don't like. Maybe I need to watch it in French so I don't get thrown off by Ben Schwartz too much