#so i think we don't have to take it as ''this is in the silm so it's the only truth''

[pacificgasandelectric]

getting In My Feels about kol nidrei & the oath of fëanor....

[nelyos-right-hand]

Guys. Guys, we seriously need to talk about kidnap fam and all the arguments surrounding it.

Because the Silm fandom is easily the most peaceful fandom I've ever seen by far, and I love it, it's just so much easier when you don't constantly have to deal with fans bashing heads over their different takes. (To clarify, people do have different takes in this fandom, which is good and exactly how fandom is supposed to be, and sometimes heads do get bashed, which isn't great, but still happens far less than in any other fandom I've ever seen.)

Some people love Morgoth, and some people love the Valar, but they don't argue over it, instead they solve the problem by engaging in deep philosophical discussions or just in so much smut. And that's great. I'm not saying you shouldn't have discussions. It's such a big part of fandom to exchange different point of views, and sometimes people change their minds, and other times you agree to disagree.

And I think we all know that of all the different corners of the fandom, the kidnap fam corner is probably disagreeing the most, and that's alright! You can defend the characters you love, you can voice your own opinion, you can disagree on other people's takes, but please, PLEASE stop insulting the fans.

This isn't everyone, there are so many incredibly kind people in that corner who are always peaceful, but it's also the only corner where I've seen people using opinions on characters as a judge for the fans that have those options.

"People who hate Elwing are so stupid", "People who love Elwing are toxic" Just stop, okay?! Just stop.

Hating a fictional character is not morally wrong. They are fictional, you can't hurt their feelings, they don't care if you hate them or love them or ignore them. Hating real people is wrong. You can hate Maedhros, and you can hate Elwing, you can even hate Elrond (no, seriously, don't hate Elrond, or I will come for you).

Your opinion on a character doesn't have to be morally correct. Even if Elwing was a terrible monster who abused her kids, it still wouldn't be somehow toxic to love her. Why would you even think that? And even if Elwing was a complete saint, it still wouldn't be stupid to hate her. Your opinion on a character doesn't have to be rational. (Example: I dislike Arwen. I know there is absolutely no rational explanation, she's a perfectly written character, she's a strong woman, she's the perfect woman for Aragorn. If she were a real person I would have to get over my dislike for her, but since she's fictional I can keep disliking her, even if I can't explain it. Even if she's a great person this isn't somehow wrong or toxic)

This post isn't about my personal opinion on Elwing, or on how much Maedhros was involved in raising the boys, or whether they called Maglor "Atar". This post also isn't saying that you should stop defending your favorite characters or headcanons, or that you should stop criticising characters you dislike. I'm not telling you to stop saying your own opinion, or to make your post and fanfictions neutral so that no one is confronted with a take they don't like. Please don't do that! You can continue making 10 000 word long posts supporting your opinion, in fact, you should do that, because if it weren't for those posts I would still have all those boring, one-sided opinions that made eleven year old me hate Boromir. It's good to sometimes be confronted with something you don't agree with.

This post is about fans insulting other fans because they don't agree with them. This is about fans making opinions on fictional characters look morally wrong, and therefore make the people behind those opinions look like bad people.

Again, this is a minority of the fans. Most people in this corner of the fandom are great and civil and deserve all the love in the world. But I'm just so tired of all the arguments, I don't even care who's right anymore, I just want us all to get along. Fandom should be about having fun, about enjoying things you love, not about bashing heads with people who disagree with you. Cause you won't get very far in real life if you can't deal with different opinions.

[eri-pl]

Silm reread 18: Tears Unnumbered ye shall shed

So, we got here. But first, B&L get an epilogue.

First, a tidbit about reembodiment: B&L take their physical forms again in Doriath. I guess they go from Mandos to there in spirit. (It's all "allegedly", anyway). Everyone is happy and afraid when seing them (very reasonable reaction I think) and Luthien heals Thingol from (depression, more or less).

Melian looks in Luhien's eyes and is sad. She "realized they will be apart till the end of the world and after" (huh?) and again, we have Pengolodh's favorite stylistic tool: "nobody ever suffered more from any loss than Melian suffered then".

Oh, I found the quote in original: “But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there, and turned away; for she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour."

B&L go to Ossiriand, it vaguelly feels like they don't neet to eat anymore? But unclear.

Anyway, back to the proper plot Feanorians. Maedhros gained hope, because he saw Morgoth is not untouchable. He starts creating the Union, but the wording about him doing it … even without knowing the story, if I read it carefully, I would probably be worried about how it will go.

And we have a clear reminder of the Oath and all that. Orodreth doesn't trust the Feanorians because C&C (makes sense I guess) (Finrod would probably join the Union but anyway). Gwindor joins Maedhros, going against his king's orders… we know how this will end for Gwindor.

doriath. Mae&co had sent brash letters to thingol along the lines of "you will be our enemy if you don't give the Silmaril back" and Melian advised Thingol to give it to them! But he is angry at their tone and at C&C, and also B&L have suffered so much for this jewel…

Sidenote: If your main claim to a piece of treasure is "but I/someone have sufferred so much", keeping it is probably going to end badly.

Also thingol wants to keep the Silmaril, because it is this jewel's power…. wait what? "And every day that he looked upon the Silmaril the more he desired to keep it for ever; for such was its power." [original] WHAT.

Ok, that is new. So, the Silmaril is canonically addictive? Or is it only because it has been in Morgoth's crown?

So, anyway, Thingol sends Maedhros a dissing answer and Maedhros leaves him be, because the Union is more important. Yay, Maedhros, great job, you are doing well! (For now :((( )

Unfortunately C&C threathen Thingol with genocide, after they win the wart. Which they assume they will. So thingol fortifies and doesn't go to the war. (Mablung and Beleg go, but Thingol allows them reluctantely, so they end up better than Gwindor)

Bór! :) and Ulfang :(

Maedhros plays his hand a bit too early :(

Also, another mention of Morgoth's spies (plural) and traitors. So, I guess the fallen Men, enslaved Elves and shapeshifting wannabe-Saurons sabotage the Union as much as they can.

Battle, Fingon doubtful, problems, suddenly: Turgon! First good surprise of this battle (it will be a whiplash…)

The Noldor want to charge too quickly, but Hurin stops them, because he is wise.

Morgoth wants to kill Fingon especially. Why? Probably to break Maedhros. (Also, revenge for the rescue, maybe.)

Gwindor gets unlucky chance (that's what happens when you go to war against your king's orders, I suppose)

The Noldor get really motivated and almost win. Morgoth is trembling of fear XD as they bang at his door. This is pretty cool of them. But then they all die. :(

Another turn: the Noldor might have won, but Ulfang. :( [Maglor kills him and it's probably the only named character that we are told is killed by Maglor, which is interesting]

Also, Glaurung is there.

Fingon dies. Also, his banner is silver and pale blue, which I did not remember.

Hurin, Turgon, foreshadowing for Earendil. Maeglin hears it all, but does not comment, and he remembers it and I have no idea why the book tells us that, this line feels so odd. "Maeglin, Turgon's sister-son, who stood by, heard these words, and did not forget them; but he said nothing" It's apparently odd to more people because there's a reddit thread about it. huh, ok, makes sense.

So, Hurin is brave and great and I will need to make a post about how the story is an ecosystem and the benefit of one character's heroics sometimes lands to another character's lap and it's painful but also quite real. So. Hurin. But we'll get back to him later.

Morgoth is happy, because divides and betrayal and stuff like that. :/

Also this (Ulfang) is why the Elves don't like Men anymore (except the Edain).

Cirdan is besieged, allo we learn that there are Orcs who can use explosives, and orkish engineers and what not. Interesting. they destroy the ports, Cirdan&co escape to the sea and to Balar.

Turgon again sends ships to Valinor, again it doesn't work (again I suppose he didn't ask Ulmo about his opinion or ignored it), and we are told who kills those sailors: not the Valar. "Only one, Voronwe, was saved by Ulmo from Osse's wrath". So yea, it's the "not rebel, but not not-rebel" sea guy. Don't blame the Valar for this.

Turgon is the rightful king of the Noldor (says the book), Morgoth hates him, because Fingolfin, and because he's a friend of Ulmo, and because Turgon's vibe scares him. We have a wonderful line about how even back in Valinor Morgoth was anxious every time he saw Turgon and tbh this is criminally underexplored in fics (this whole period is) and must have been quite hilarious.

Hurin disses Morgoth, Morgoth curses him and his wife and kids, takes him high up, and curses him again for a good measure.

Results of that: in the next chapter.

[polutrope]

Just pure headcanons, what do you think happened during Maglor's reign as a king? I don't know if his reign was short or something but I remember it took some time before Fingon was able to save Maedhros and unite the noldor and there was still some division between the host of nolofinweans and feanorians. I wonder if he considered himself a placeholder until Maedhros returned or was he a reluctant king? Did the host respect him as a king, did his own brothers respect him as a king? I am so intrigued because, aside from Maedhros, I think Maglor deserved some shoutout lmao (No, this isn't a maglor-obsession-spree that I have been on, nu uh). Also, I feel like he would have some cordial relationship with Fingolfin, they could bond as the second sons having to take leadership because the eldest died/was abducted idk.

Oh no, starlitelwing. I hope you know the Pandora's Box you've just opened. King Maglor is one of my all-time favourite things to think about.

First of all: there's actually no canonical information on Maglor's position after the capture of Maedhros (in fact, we don't even know what Maedhros' title/position was after Feanor's death; all we know is that Feanor "claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor" in Tirion. Contested leadership is SO GOOD isn't it? anyway...).

The published Silmarillion glosses right over the question of who's in charge during the time between Feanor's death and Fingolfin's official assumption of the Kingship of the Noldor (which, if you ask me, Fingolfin effectively had been King since the time of Feanor's exile, and he was in any case Regent at the time of Finwe's death... he said he'd follow Feanor but the people following him were calling him Finwe Nolofinwe soooo... aiee, I digress again). The book gallops at such a breakneck speed that you don't really notice the gap in leadership. Or, I didn't.

But then you look at the Grey Annals (where Tolkien Gateway gets most of its First Age dates) and you see that there are 2-3 Tree Years and 5 Sun Years between Maedhros' capture and his rescue. Now, however you imagine time works in Tree Years when there are no Trees, that's still a long time. Maedhros was gone at a minimum 6-7 years, more likely closer to the equivalent of 30 "regular" years. (That's way longer, by the way, than the time between Feanor's death and Maedhros' capture, which was like, a day to a month, at most. Maedhros, if he even was King, was King for way less time than whoever followed him. And he sucked at the job, btw. But I digress. Again.)

So someone had to be in charge for those 6 to 30 years, but whomst? That the leadership would pass after Feanor's death to the eldest son is logical, and that it would then pass to the next eldest is also logical. I see no reason to refute that, but note: it would not be uncanonical to have someone other than Maedhros or Maglor in charge at this time. You can make King Celegorm a thing and still be canon-compliant!

This passage in the published Silm is basically the extent of the activities of the sons of Feanor during Maedhros' absence:

Then the brothers of Maedhros drew back, and fortified a great camp in Hithlum; but Morgoth held Maedhros as hostage, and sent word that he would not release him unless the Noldor would forsake their war, returning into the West, or else departing far from Beleriand into the South of the world. But the sons of Feanor knew that Morgoth would betray them, and would not release Maedhros, whatsoever they might do; and they were constrained also by their oath, and might not for any cause forsake the war against their Enemy.

The sense here is that all six sons acted as a unit. But in the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion, the text on which this passage is drawn:

Morgoth held [Maedhros] as hostage and sent word to Maglor that he would only release his brother if …

To Maglor! Excellent evidence that Tolkien was also making the logical conclusion that Maglor, the eldest, was in charge. (My best theory for why Christopher Tolkien took that out is Too Many Names, but it's an odd decision.)

All that was to say: We don't know, canonically, that Maglor was in charge at Mithrim. But it makes a lot of sense, and it's my headcanon that he was.

Now. More interesting headcanons.

I don't think Maglor was called King until it was politically necessary.

I see him as someone who is comfortable in command (one meaning of Cano is "commander", after all) but who likes to command collaboratively. Double-edged sword: he values the input of others (admirable quality) and he does not like being fully responsible for the outcomes of a decision (less admirable).

Unlike much fanon I've come across, I don't think Maglor was a particularly reluctant or incompetent leader or that he hated it. He was miserable, yes, because his father just died and his brother was just captured, and he wasn't thrilled to become a leader on top of that, but he keeps it together.

So how do I imagine it all went down?

The problem with Maglor being in command is that his "collaborative" style of leadership is not appropriate for a time of crisis or for his family. While the Silm often talks about "the sons of a Feanor" as a unit, I do not think they were of the same mind on everything. At all. They need a firm hand, and Maglor does not have that.

But who does have a firm hand? Who would be a more martial ruler, someone who could get people in order during a crisis? Celegorm. And he knows it.

So why did the Feanorians "get nothing done" during those 6-30 years (sidenote: I don't actually think they got nothing done, but it does seem they didn't get anything BIG done)? Well, for one, they were fighting amongst themselves.

Maglor could not get his brothers to agree on anything, and yet he did not know any other way of commanding, and over time he becomes more and more miserable as a leader.

Celegorm, meanwhile, is chomping at the bit to "relieve him" of the burden.

Around them, everyone else is picking sides.

Curufin is an interesting case. I headcanon he actually was fully behind Maglor at the beginning, because he respects the orderliness of succession. But as Maglor proves himself unsuitable for the role, he aligns with Celegorm.

Outside the family, I headcanon that the Mithrim Elves were actually quite taken with Maglor, the poet-king. Their alliance hinges on him. But the Noldor, especially the army, would rather follow Celegorm.

As everyone knows, a rival for leadership with the army's support is Bad News. And yet Maglor manages to hold on. He should definitely get credit for that.

But why hold on? If he is hating this ruler job, why not just let Celegorm have it? Couple reasons:

It's Celegorm. He may be able to perform well, but Maglor knows he's the most like Feanor in temperament and, well, Feanor's kingship didn't end well.

If Maglor gives up that crown, he will have admitted to himself that Maedhros is not coming back. This is the same reason he doesn't give it over to Fingolfin when Uncle Nolvo shows up. He is hanging onto that thing for dear life because, to him, it belongs to Maedhros and only Maedhros. He is the crown's custodian, never its rightful owner (this bleeds into my headcanon that Maglor does not "in his heart" agree with Maedhros' decision to cede the kingship — he'll never be as vocal about it as the others, though).

Now we come to another piece. What did Maglor call himself? Like I said up top, I don't think he initially called himself King. He was "head of his House", or maybe, "Lord of Hithlum," or maybe King Regent, but never King. If one of the Mithrim got mixed up and called him that, he would always correct them.

That changes when Fingolfin shows up. Now there's another claimant to the title of King. Possibly a more legitimate one than even Maedhros (as Maedhros later says himself).

By that time, Maglor has been keeping that crown out of Celegorm's hands for years; he is not giving it up now. And Fingolfin is less likely to challenge his leadership if he offers no room for ambiguity. If he dons the mantle of kingship and pretends Maedhros is dead.

So that is what he does... Does Fingolfin accept it? Well: "Then there was peril of strife between the hosts."

For three years, on opposite sides of the Lake, they're at an impasse. Fingon doesn't go looking for Maedhros because he thinks Maedhros is dead (and other reasons: the mission is insane and desperate not the least, and contrary to popular opinion Fingon is not a rash idiot).

How does Fingon eventually learn the truth? You'll have to wait and read what @melestasflight and I are cooking up for Silm Epistolary Week ;)

ETA: Despite this, I do think you're right that Maglor and Fingolfin could have bonded over their similar experiences! There's the personal and there's the political, and I love the idea of the tension between these straining what could be an emotionally supportive familial friendship between Maglor and Fingolfin.

[imakemywings]

So Maeglin apparently was handsome af, popular, charismatic, and a close confidant of Turgon during his time in Gondolin. In fact, he was a lord and was close to Turgon's ear so he was heard more than Idril. I just wanna know why the fandom loves to portray him as this kid who was hated by everyone (he was not), whom Turgon hated (didn't Turgon love that kid so much?), and whose love for Idril was seen in a good light (when in fact, he was willing to kill earendil just to get Idril). I was honestly shocked when it was such a popular narrative that he was being abused and hated pretty much by everyone in Gondolin and he didn't mean to cause the fall of Gondolin because he was a poor mew mew when the real poor mew mew was Turgon for listening to him in the first place. Lmao I was just genuinely shocked when it was the other way around. I like his character, he's interesting and complex but it kinda takes away the complexity of his character when he is being woobify but that's just me. What do you think?

Anon, idk if you looked at my blog and could tell I would be receptive to these takes, or if you just happen to keep landing on things I agree with XD

But yeah, I have thoughts on Maeglin's reception by the fandom and it's mostly in agreement with what you said.

With Maeglin, he is sympathetic in a lot of ways, which makes you want to root for him. He did have a difficult childhood--Eol was a shithead spouse so it's not hard to imagine he was not a great father either. Maeglin grew up almost totally isolated from anyone but his mom and dad, who did not have a good relationship, thanks to his dad's abuse. When he and Aredhel make a run for it, we want them to succeed! We want good things for them (we've been rooting for Aredhel since the beginning of the chapter)! When Maeglin witnesses his father kill his mother in an effort to kill him, we want him to find peace and security in Gondolin.

The thing is--Maeglin grows well past his difficult childhood. As you noted, Maeglin does very well for himself in Gondolin. At the end of the chapter Of Maeglin, it is described how he "grew great among the Gondolindrim" and there are various indications he was generally trusted and well-liked.

"Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor..." ("Of Maeglin," The Silmarillion)

At this point, this is we want for him! We like the idea that he's shrugged off his past, that he's doing well, and that he's not like his creepy bride-abducting father.

We don't get much in Silm about what Maeglin's relationship with Turgon is like, but I talked here about why I can't buy that Turgon neglected or abused Maeglin.

"Then the King listened with wonder to all that Aredhel had to tell; and he looked with liking upon Maeglin his sister-son, seeing in him one worthy to be accounted among the princes of the Noldor. 'I rejoice indeed that Ar-Feiniel has returned to Gondolin,' he said, 'and now more fair again shall my city seem than in the days when I deemed her lost. And Maeglin shall have the highest honor in my realm.'" ("Of Maeglin," The Silmarillion)

The only fly in that pudding is that he and Idril get off to a bad start which never improves. He's into her, she's not into him, but he can't let it go. He lets it fester and generate anger, jealousy, and hatred, and in this way, he's like so many creepy guys who can't take rejection.

"But as the years passed, still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power." ("Of Maeglin," The Silmarillion)

But even so, Maeglin is trusted by Turgon! He's popular! He has his own craft and people who admire and follow his ideas! In almost every way, Maeglin should be happy. But he cannot stop obsessing over Idril, and he lets that spoil everything else that he's achieved, to the point where he's wiling to betray the entire city to possess her.

I think there's also a disconnect between those who've read The Fall of Gondolin and those who haven't, because TFOG expands on a lot of things only really hinted at in Silm proper. For instance, the attempted murder of Earendil (who, it should be noted, is seven years old during the sack of Gondolin). In Silm, we get this:

"Tuor sought to rescue Idril from the sack of the city, but Maeglin had laid hands on her, and on Earendil; and Tuor fought with Maeglin on the walls, and cast him far out..." ("Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin," The Silmarillion)

In The Fall of Gondolin, we get a much more detailed account:

"Messengers by great stealth he had dispatched to Melko[r] to set a guard about the outer issue of that Way when the assault was made; but he himself thought now to take Earendil and cast him into the fire beneath the walls, and seizing Idril he would constrain her to guide him to the secrets of the passage, that he might win out of this terror of fire and slaughter and drag her withal along with him to the lands of Melko[r]... Now then M[a]eglin had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of Earendil to the flames...When M[a]eglin saw [Tuor] he would stab Earendil with a short knife he had...the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see." ("The Original Tale," The Fall of Gondolin)

In TFOG, Maeglin's malice is even more apparent as we get a blow-by-blow account of his effort to force Idril to watch him kill her child and then drag her to Angband, but even looking exclusively at canon Silm, Maeglin clearly swings into the villain path. I don't like to criticize him too much for caving under Melkor's threats, because being threatened with torture by Melkor would be fucking terrifying and I don't think any of us can say for certain how we would respond in that kind of situation. Tolkien even tells us Maeglin wasn't a coward, but Melkor is Melkor. Not everyone can be Hurin "Noted Badass and Snarkmaster" Thalion. What I am happy to criticize him relentlessly on is that he allows Melkor's plan to move forward.

"But Morgoth sent him [Maeglin] back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within, when the hour came; and he abode in the halls of the King with smiling face and evil heart..." ("Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin," The Silmarillion)

He never warns the Gondolindrim of what's coming, and in fact he encourages Turgon to refuse Ulmo's advice and stay in the city (where Melkor expects them to be). In TFOG, when Melkor does invade, Maeglin and his house fight on Melkor's side.

Maeglin fucked up by selling the city out, no argument. But it's more than that--he could have tried to fix it. But he doesn't. Because? Because he doesn't want his treachery revealed, and because Melkor promised him possession of Idril if he helped.

"Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth, and to Maeglin he promised the lordship of Gondolin as his vassal, and the possession of Idril Celebrindal, when the city should be taken; and indeed desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor led Maeglin the easier to his treachery, most infamous in all the histories of the Elder Days." ( "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin," The Silmarillion)

People resist the narrative of Maeglin the villain I think because they are still in phase 1 where we want good things for Maeglin and for him to overcome his past. And he does...but then he chooses his own shitty path and throws away all the things he gained because he can't be content without everything that he wants, which includes Idril. Making all Maeglin's bad choices someone else's fault--Idril's for rejecting his advances, Aredhel or Eol for parenting him wrong, Turgon for not understanding him, Tuor for who knows--means not having to acknowledge Maeglin chose to become the person who betrayed Gondolin and tried to murder his family.

"Then the heart of Idril was turned towards [Tuor], and his to hear; and Maeglin's secret hatred grew ever greater, for he desired above all things to possess her, the only heir to the King of Gondolin." ("Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin," The Silmarillion)

Maeglin's story is a tragedy of someone consumed with their own malcontent, someone who had so much opportunity to be happy but chose to perserverate on the things he couldn't have, who became so obsessed with his own desires that he was willing to hurt everyone around him to get what he wanted. Maeglin's story is of a man who could not handle rejection by a woman he wanted, so he decided to ruin her life and kill her family. Maeglin begins the story as someone we are meant to sympathize with--but he doesn't end it that way.

[yashmel]

I have a really long LOTR-Silm AU fanfic about Dagor Dagorrat(with plenty of weird headcanons). Me and my co-autor are writing it for like ten years and completely rewrote finished chapters twice. And I don't know if we would ever finish it.

I would love to share it here, but it is written in russian and not translated yet, so

I'll just show you my recent illustration for one of its episodes, where Not-so-much-Glorfindel-no-way-disguised-Findarato speaks with Olórin, while being imprisoned in halls of Moria after meeting Melkor.

— He called me his apprentice, — Glorfindel said with a crooked smile, staring into the impenetrable darkness of the cave that had become their prison.

— And he made me remember of Samwise Gamgee, — replied Olórin with a similarly somber smile. — His words are filled with malice, Findaráto. They are not worth taking to heart.

The elf fell silent.

— I don't know, — he sighed. — I fear this is one of those rare moments when he is right.

— Right about what?

— That… — Glorfindel swallowed, breaking off in mid-sentence, — …that I am no longer Findaráto, — he finished dryly, and his face tightened.

— Master of Spirits did not agree, — the Maia replied calmly. — Whom do you trust more? Him? Or Morgoth?

— He is merciful, and truth is too cruel.

— Perhaps the resonance of your songs has altered your way of thinking, — Olórin's words carried their usual weight, but there was a hint of sadness in his blue eyes, — but not your heart. It is not truth, but yourself who is cruel with you, Findaráto.

— I merely accept things as they are, — the elf said dully, not lifting his gaze from his folded hands. — There is little left of Findaráto in me. For the most part, I am Sauron.

— You are innocent, unlike him, — the Maia paused, choosing his words. — And you are capable of love. Something he never knew.

— Am I? — the elf retorted bitterly. — Was it not me, who begged Námo for a different body and fled to Middle-earth with the Istari, saying nothing to father or mother? Was it not me, who avoided meeting Artanis until the last moment, fearing she would recognize me? And now, when there is no other way, I lie to her face…

— So why did you not tell her? — Olórin asked softly.

— Because she would not want to know that her brother has become a Morgoth's beast, — pain and anger echoed in the sharply spoken words, reverberating off the cave's walls. The elf lifted his head, shuddering as if shaking off a delusion.

— Because she deserves better than such a truth, — he said much quieter and more sadly. — I have told you this several times. Why do you ask again?

— To show you how much you love them, — the Maia said with a sad smile. — You went into voluntary exile, giving up everything you had to spare them pain. Do you think Sauron is capable of such sacrifice?

Findaráto stayed still. A spark of surprise flickered in his grey eyes. For several moments, he simply looked at his companion.

— No, — he said more warmly than before. — He is not. Thank you, Olórin.

[aipilosse]

I’d like your opinion if not too much of a bother: Do you think that in actual canon Sauron was somewhat initially sincere in his offer to help the elves improve middle earth? It reads to me like he was only interested in lying to the elves of Eregion for his own personal use, but I can’t get past the idea that it seemed so easy for him to fool them. Fooling men is one thing, but the elves seem to take stock of others much more accurately. The easiest way to deceive is to have some truth mixed in with the lies. There is somewhere that says something to the effect of his repentance might have been sincere initially at one time (though I think it was more because he was scared for himself).

Questions about Sauron are never a bother!!!

Short answer: Yes, I think Sauron was somewhat sincere in his offer to help the elves improve Middle-earth.

Longer answer: Yes, I think Sauron was somewhat sincere in his offer to help the elves improve Middle-earth and I have textual support!

The well known line that you referred to is from Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age in the Silmarillion, and is regarding Sauron abjuring his past deeds to Eönwë:

And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West.

Now, you can (fairly) make the argument that this is no true repentance if he's just doing so because he's scared, and that by the time he approaches the elves circa S.A. 1000, he was back to being 100% bad vibes, evil all day e'er day, bad news bears, etc. but I think his desire to work with the elves to improve the world was genuine.

This is slightly undercut by what comes next:

Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.

You might say, well there you have it, he has dark designs and hates the elves, case closed pack it up, but WAIT. Now, if you know me, you know I don't hold much truck with most 'biased narrator' bs, but I do think it's worthwhile whenever we are being told about a character's thoughts to consider the framing of the story and how those thoughts could possibly have been known. I think in this case and in others (for instance, Maedhros' thoughts right before he dies) we can assume that whoever is recording the story, whatever their motives, did not actually know what characters like Sauron are thinking.

'But Aipi, you filthy hypocrite,' you say. 'You've argued yourself that the 'single narrator' lens of the Silm that many fans take misconstrues what's going on, since the sources it pulls from have multiple in-text historians and bards or sometimes none at all, and because of that, you can't just chuck out the lines you don't like with no evidence.'

Fair, totally fair, but I have evidence!

The reason I think the "dark designs" bit is color added by a historian who did not actually know Sauron's thoughts at the time he came to the elves is because of On Motives.

If you are a Sauron fan, I highly recommend tracking down a copy of Morgoth's Ring and reading the chapter 'Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion'. I am resisting quoting the whole thing, but importantly we are told:

[Sauron] did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

On Motives gives us several important facts: Sauron has the relics of positive purpose, he has the virtue of loving order and coordination, he fell and then again relapsed (which means he must have achieved some sort of not-evil state inbetween the fall and the relapse!).

We also get this wonderful line comparing Sauron and Saruman:

Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker.

And there are other references to Sauron being capable of admiring minds outside of his own in On Motives. To me, all this points to Sauron not only coming to the elves with genuine aspirations to help, but also that at this point perhaps 'hatred of the Eldar' is a wee bit overblown.

The idea that Sauron falls, starts to walk a better path, and falls again is a key motif in the history of Middle-earth. It echoes Morgoth's arc, and then is replicated in miniature in a way in Gollum. He has some genuinely good intentions, but these are warped by his desire for control and the corrupting nature of power.

There's even more bits on Sauron and his fair motives in Tolkien's letters, but I think I'll wrap with this quote (another fave):

But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.

Perhaps Sauron was always doomed to fall again because of his need to control, but I think the elves of Eregion recognized a genuine kindred motive in him.

[and-the-times-we-had]

i don't know if you're still taking asks for the blorbo bingo, but i'd love to see your take on Fëanor!

Absolutely I am taking asks! :)

Feanor is my fave silm character. He's The Guy to me. He's so extra and every piece of dialogue he has is a fucking banger. Tolkien really created the Most Character with him. I am Rotating him constantly. There's so much going on in there.

A few of my Feanor headcanons for you (based on the version where Feanor was still a child when Finwe and Indis married):

1) I think that given how close Feanor and Finwe were after Miriel died, it must have been very difficult for child!Feanor to adjust to suddenly having Indis right there. It probably interrupted a lot of the routines he and his father had in their home and made him all the more adverse to Indis being there.

2) I think it's quite possible that, given the fact that we know Feanor married early and left home when he did, that Feanor also ran away from home (possibly multiple times) as a child/teen because home didn't really feel like home to him.

It doesn't sound like Finwe and Indis made their home a very comfortable space for any of their children tbh (consider that Finarfin also canonically dips out to go get married as early as possible and move to Alqualonde).

3) decent possibility that Feanor meets Nerdanel/starts his apprenticeship with Mahtan during one of these instances of running away from home.

4) I think that Feanor's relationship with Finwe, Indis, and his half siblings actually did improve once he was out on his own and especially once he had his own children. Until Melkor got released and fucked it all up.

Ok hope you enjoyed! Thanks for asking about my favorite guy lol

[swanmaids]

Hmm. Trying to word this properly… I’ll always advocate for fictional positive relationships between women in canon and fanworks because a world with no female friendships is a world that suggests all women are either awful catty bitches, or just don’t have any interesting inner lives that make them worthy of being friends with. And I love the female friendships we get in silm canon (Morwen and Aerin, Galadriel and Melian etc) and many popular fanon friendships (Idril and Elwing, Finduilas and Nienor etc). However, the idea that all the ladies automatically get along is one that I’m also not a fan of - it prevents female characters from having a level of complexity that male characters are awarded. So, my personal headcanons for the Finwean ladies who are unfriends:

1. Aredhel and Galadriel. Nothing super deep here - I don’t think they hate each other or even necessarily dislike each other, they’re just not friends lol. They don’t move in the same circles or have many similar interests, and when they were younger may have chafed at being placed together by the adults because they were the only girl cousins. I can see them respecting each other’s determination on the Ice, though.

2. Eärwen and Nerdanel. No, what happened to Eärwen’s people is not Nerdanel’s fault, however, she’d have to be extremely generous to totally dissociate Nerdanel from her family’s actions (which led to the slaughter of Eärwen’s people and the loss of her children) in her mind, and I personally think it’s more realistic if she can’t do that, especially when she’s undoubtedly in such a traumatised state after the Darkening. And from Nerdanel’s point of view, Eärwen is being unfair to blame other people’s actions on her, especially when she’s already separated herself from Fëanor and has just lost her own children. In addition, I don’t know that they were very close pre-darkening - Anairë and Eärwen are friends, as are Nerdanel and Indis, but there’s no mention of Eärwen and Nerdanel. So there’s not much of a pre-existing relationship that either are motivated to fight to save.

3. Idril and Aredhel. I think Idril was greatly traumatised by everything that she experienced on the Ice, in particular the loss of her mother and her own near-death experience. I don't see why Idril would have any more of a charitable opinion towards the Feanorians than her father afterwards, though Idril may have been better at holding back her emotions. While I think Aredhel and Idril were probably close on the Ice, I don't think Idril would cope well seeing Aredhel reconnect with her cousins who Idril feels are partly responsible for the death of her mother. While Turgon and Aredhel maintain a close sibling bond, I see Idril and Aredhel's relationship essentially falling apart at Mithrim and never recovering. Idril probably tried to hold a lot of her feelings inside as she does quite often, but I'm sure she argued furiously with her aunt at times, with both of them saying things they can't take back - perhaps especially right as Aredhel departs Gondolin. Later, Idril may have blamed herself for her aunt's death. If only she'd held her tongue, Aredhel would have stayed, right?

[elluendifad]

Hi!! Could you talk a little about what following Tolkien elven religion is like for you? (Only if you want, of course.)

I'm a very newly awakened elf and I've just started reading the silmarillion. I haven't even gotten that far yet, but already it's the most connected I've felt to any religious system/religious lore before. I'm considering practicing Elvish religion, but idk. I feel a little strange saying I want to practice a religion from a work of fiction, y'know? (Please don't take this as me saying your beliefs are strange— I think they're incredibly cool. This is very much just a me thing.)

Anyway, I guess my question is something along the lines of How did you realize this was the religion for you/What do you believe wrt Tolkiens work being or not being fiction?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, and doubly so if you choose to answer! Have a nice timezone :))

Alatulya, welcome kin! this one is a little long so there is a break. i also accidentally hit publish early, so we will see how editing it works lol.

table of contents: 1. my personal history and variety of practitioners 2. dealing with fictional mythology + my fave paper on this 3. specifics of tolk elven religion

Eldarin religion has been my primary religion (buddhism and my eclectic animistic witchcraft also there and co piloting) for seven years. I have been working with other eldar on our own group experience of this religion for two or a bit more years. I have taken a bit of priestly service role of collecting and organizing materials and keeping track of the calendar, which we call Loa and which assigns different holidays and themes in order throughout the year. i suspect this role is agreeable and natural for me as minya, but that anyone could do it. the degree of demand differs depending on the person, and i would say that much of my time is set to thinking of or practicing our religion. others have less involvement, and some of us feel our cosmology and philosophy is more cultural than religious the way humans might think being a member of a religious group should be. as for my own journey of getting here, i have been otherkin for most of my life and many years of that was 'generally a nature spirit type thing.' which became 'an elf but i am not sure what kind.' which then became 'oh god… am i one of those hoity toity tolkien elves?' bc there is a cultural expectation among elfkin that tolk elves are more dour and care what color clothes you wear or something… turns out that is not true! or, at least, i have not met these grim arbiters of what is becoming of the firstborn! reading the silm and other texts in the legendarium to fill in what i had absorbed from the hobbit and lotr (books and movies) was the lightbulb in the dim cellar. i use a mixed spiritual and psychological theory of origin and function for my several theriotypes and elven kintype, and this experience filled in some gaps i had just been sitting with. i personally feel that i am living one continuous eldarin life--awoken at cuivienen among the minyar, lived and died, spent my time in mandos, and was reembodied here. my sense of memory is dim, and i generally assume that is just a sign that memory is not necessarily important for this part of my life the way it was in arda. it is a great honor to live this life and to find other eldar and folks of all kindreds to share my love of life with. it was natural to transition from my magic and religious work with nature spirits to a cosmology centered on the legendarium-some of the spirits i still work and live with admit they are maiar, others are not maiar and are of the many kinds of spirit and sprite that entered into ea after its foundation to explore. our working relationships and the techniques i use for magic have stayed much the same. so how i do it is just one example in a variety.

2. i will answer first on dealing with the fictional aspect and wrestling with the nature of constructed or pop culture or modern mythology spirituality-the individual beliefs differ there, too!

for my part, i do not think the legendarium is a factual history of this actual world we currently live in. i do think jrrt was channeling something, and may or may not have been kin himself of arda reembodied here.

i think ea, like most faerie realms, is both here and not here and you have to open yourself up and step into it. once most people have experienced the enchantment of an otherworld, they are never fully able to drop the sense of it. i do feel that the legendarium makes a suitable mythopoetic 'history' for powers and themes that apply to both this world and ea and where they overlap, and that the legendarium becomes more historically factual the closer you move into ea and the further you go from current earth.

there is a lovely paper that i surely have annoyed everyone with titled the tolkien spiritual milieu by Markus Altena Davidsen of the university of leiden that really gets into the anatomy of constructed religion and what is present in certain medias that lends itself to that anatomy, which he calls 'religious affordances' in the text. it details a number of groups of many varied beliefs in the tolkien spiritual sphere, some active and some long gone, and i feel that it is a great way to expand one's vocabulary and mental concept of constructed religion and the wide variety that is possible in such constructions. the pdf is available from the university website here

if you check out mr davidsen's other published papers on that website, there are several others also relevant to fiction sourced mythology and spirituality including some by other authors.

3. that being said, there are religious affordances for the eldar in the texts, but not necessarily enough for a fully fleshed out practice as is prepared and given to new members of various world religions. it will take a bit of crafting, but we elves do love to craft! most of us blend legendarium cosmology and philosophy with practices or philosophies we are previously familiar with, like neopaganism or judaism or etc etc.

we have developed some structure in the forms of: a multiply layered observational calendar for the six seasons, eight holidays, twelve months, and seven days of the week; the fourteen valar and several named maiar associated with certain valar; the panentheistic experience of the creator Eru; and the use of witchcraft, meditation, devotional or worship activity, enchantments, glamor, and arts like music poetry painting crochet etc.

most of us practice our own personal flavor by ourselves, and group rituals or ensorcelments are rare at the moment. we are all exploring, and i would be thrilled to hear about your own explorations and what calls to you!

sooo… basically i have a worship and work relationship with our gods and supportive spirits, and give observation on the schedule of the loa. i have daily practices, like offering of beverage an thanks or an oil anointment of my body, and then weekly practices like an eruhini veneration and well wishes for the dead. and monthly practices on the full and dark moon, which is focused on the vala of that month, where i usually do spellwork for the constellation. there are holidays at the start of each season and at the solstices, where i will sometimes do magic for the group but is usually about the personal journey. the one time another elf was physically with me i did do some small rituals including that elda. my herbalism work is inherently religious to me and i also count both learning and practicing herbalism as a devotional activity, same with going on walks or drumming.

i invite you very earnestly to reach out any time and through any means you are comfortable with, and i wish you a very blessed full moon of winds. hantanyel ar namarie!

[iridescentoracle]

Hello! I am here to ask about your Dior headcanons re: the political cohesion of Doriath. 👀

Oh man, I didn't expect anyone to actually take me up on that!

(Okay so I got partway into writing this and then realized I should probably note up front that I tend to stick to the Silm (& LOTR/the Hobbit where applicable, but they... aren't, here) as the most authoritative version of canon, and I can get into why and where the nuances/exceptions are there (I do say tend to stick, it's not hard and fast!), but that's mostly a side note here: the point is simply that I don't really factor other drafts or the poetic Leithian into my take on Doriath, Thingol, Dior, etc, just what we're told in the actual Silm. I also read the Silm as an in-universe history text compiled by in-universe scholars, who, being people, are going to have their own biases and blind spots, even when they're doing their best to be accurate!)

So, this is a two-part thing: #1, there's the political cohesion of Doriath before & at the time of Thingol's death, which i talked about in the tags of the post that prompted this ask but is kind of necessary as context for the Dior part to make sense, and #2, there's the actual Dior headcanons. Both of these parts are very long because I've never really seen anyone else suggest any of this stuff and I want to explain where I'm coming from thoroughly enough that it actually makes sense to people who aren't me, but the TL;DRs:

TL;DR 1: I think Doriath was probably a hot mess politically after Thingol died, with tensions between various groups of Sindar and Laiquendi in the leadup to Thingol's death & Melian's departure, and more political tensions afterwards between those who wanted Beren & Lúthien to come be the new rulers, and those who thought they should stay gone, with someone still in Doriath taking over.

TL;DR 2: I think Dior became Eluchil, potentially at the request of some portion of the Iathrim, hoping to help prevent Doriath from devolving into civil war, and saw dealing with the Silmaril-Fëanorioni situation as a lower priority than stabilizing Doriath's internal political situation until it was too late.

1. The political cohesion (or rather, lack thereof) in Doriath prior to Thingol's death

So, okay, the thing about Doriath is that we don't actually have any real idea of like... how much the Iathrim liked being the Iathrim? We're never told about any intra-Iathrim conflict, but a) the Silm was probably compiled mostly by surviving Gondolindrim or their descendants, so they wouldn't know about anything liike that unless surviving Iathrim told them, and after the Second Kinslaying I don't imagine many Iathrim would've been eager to talk about how things had actually been tense/messy/etc when they could remember everything as having been perfect until it was ruined by the Fëanorionrim, and doubly so after the Third Kinslaying, so why would anything like that make it into the Silm?

and b) what we do know about Doriath is that it wasn't really Doriath as we know it until Morgoth came back to Middle-earth, and everything went to hell.

At the start of the first age, you suddenly get Doriath (the fenced land!) being the one protected area of a continent that used to be totally free and open. How many Sindar actually didn't particularly care for Thingol's style of leadership, or simply preferred to live nomadic lives, going basically wherever they pleased, until suddenly that wasn't safe anymore, and you were only guaranteed survival if you were close enough to Menegroth to be within the Girdle when it went up? ditto how many Laiquendi had no interest in swearing loyalty to Thingol right after their own king had just been killed, but again, made it to safety and stayed there over taking their chances on their own in the outside world?

I think it's entirely possible that there were always potential political tensions under the surface in Doriath that just... never got written about, because they never boiled over into actual political conflict, and so it was never the sort of tension that had any bearing on the historical record.

Except then Beren & Lúthien happen to the world, and a few years later the Narn, and in the blink of an eye suddenly the only king Doriath has ever had is dead, and the only queen Doriath has ever had is gone and the Girdle with her—and more than that, the only rulers the Sindar had ever had for three thousand years before Doriath existed.

And where a few years earlier I think the Iathrim would probably have turned pretty universally to Lúthien, now she's abandoned them for her human husband—and while she's my favorite character in the entire legendarium hands-down and I don't blame her, I think that's another place there might have actually been some very mixed feelings among the Iathrim that nobody wanted to admit to later because how could anyone have been upset with Lúthien—and on top of her abandoning them for him, I think it's extremely probable most of Doriath did not actually get over their xenophobia about humans in general or Beren in specific when Thingol did (we know for sure at least some of Doriath didn't, cf. Saeros insulting Túrin's mother & sister to his face), but again, who's going to admit to having had a grudge against the holy couple of Middle-earth after the fact, you know?

Conversely, there could've been a sizeable faction of Sindar who had been totally loyal to Thingol until everything happened with Beren & Lúthien, but who found his actions towards them and/or Finrod to be where they drew the line, and while (unlike B&L themselves) that faction stayed in Doriath, there could've been a new, additional tension on that front.

Finally, for all we know there were multiple factions within the Laiquendi of Doriath, with political tensions stretching back to before their king died, rooted in who-even-knows!

2. Dior

All of that, of course, sets up a very, very messy political situation for Dior to walk into.

The Doriath stuff is arguably more speculation than actual headcanon, but here's where the unambiguous headcanons come in: I don't think "Dior Eluchil set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath." Obviously that's how it got written down, but bluntly, I can't see Beren and Lúthien having a kid that stupid or, like, power-hungry and arrogant?

What I can see is a situation where the messenger that brought word of Thingol's death and Melian's departure asked Beren & Lúthien to come take over as the new king and queen, we promise we're not mad about you leaving and we won't be xenophobic to your husband anymore we swear it's fine now pretty please, Beren & Lúthien said no, and the messenger either asked Dior as a second choice, or said "okay fine none of that was actually true but Doriath is falling apart and we need a leader ASAP and there's about eight different contenders* (mostly kinsmen of Thingol or Laiquendi) being backed by various factions and it's going to devolve into civil war any minute so if you care at all—" and Dior said "would I do?"

(* Ask me about my Galadriel headcanon)

I don't think Dior necessarily wanted to be king of Doriath, and I don't think he saw the throne as his birthright or anything like that; I don't think anyone involved, from Thingol to Lúthien to Dior himself, ever considered the possibility of Thingol dying and needing an heir! I think it's possible he was asked, or at most that he offered, and either way, I think he saw becoming king as taking on a responsibility for the sake of others.

(Which, like, "well here's a potentially impossible task that I'm going to take up even though probably no one thinks I'm actually capable of it, but it's my duty to help others as best I can" sure does sound to me like an attitude one might develop when raised by Lúthien "I kicked Sauron's ass cast a sleep spell on Morgoth and persuaded the Valar to find a loophole in the fabric of reality" Tinuviel and Beren "I stayed by my father's side as an outlaw to give my mother time to lead the rest of our people away hopefully to safety knowing I would never see her or any of them again (and then spent several years being a giant thorn in Morgoth's side for good measure)" Barahirion, where "apparently my grandpa I may or may not have ever met died, guess that makes me the king of a place i may or may not have ever been" does... not.)

I also think he either took on the epithet Eluchil, or was given it by whichever factions of the Iathrim accepted him as king, when he actually became king. Obviously he's going to be referred to as Dior Eluchil even before that in retrospect because that's how he's thought of later, but that doesn't mean it was actually a name he always had, you know?

The final thing is, I think if Dior essentially walked into a political situation five seconds from devolving into civil war, it makes his inaction regarding the Silmaril prior to the Second Kinslaying make more sense: the Fëanorioni have been sitting around doing nothing about the Silmaril in Doriath / with Beren & Lúthien this whole time, the letter saying "hey that's our Silmaril give it back now" is probably just a formality, and Dior's only been ruling for a couple years, there's still plenty of people dubious about whether he should be king at all, he might well be subject to at least some of whatever xenophobia remains about humans in Doriath, and in general all the work he's done on stabilizing the kingdom will absolutely come undone again if he screws up; he's trying to keep a kingdom from falling apart, the Silmaril thing can wait.

Of course, it wasn't a formality, and it couldn't wait, but why would Dior have known that?

[doodle-pops]

Careful What You Summon

Manwe x reader x Melkor

Kinktober 2022: Wild Card (Angel and Demon AU)

A/N: For some time I've been wanting to do something like this for the Silm elves, but here we have Manwe, Melkor and Irmo starting us off instead. Credit to @edensrose since this may bare some similarities to her Incubus AU should anyone thinks so. This started off as a short 2k fic and look at what the power of editing did >.<

Warnings: fembod, Manwe being absolutely jealous and mean, Guardian Angel! Manwe, Demon! Melkor, Irmo makes an appearance to escalate things a bit (he does interact with reader as well), I wouldn't consider this a threesome even though it would have been a great idea as a wild card, implication of breeding and impregnation kink, Melkor being a dick to his brother, competing against each other ughh

Word Count: 3.5k

Synopsis: "Would you ever fuck an angel?" "Ew, no, why would I do that. Angels are just so...just. Demons, however, are more fuckable," if only you understood what you had just said, because there's always two ways to learn: the easy way, and the Order of the Deity way.

Random grimoire found in your backyard, check.

Candles lit and seals drawn, check.

Dress in all black and dimly lit room, check.

The appearance of the summoned demon, check.

The appearance of your guardian angel and another divine creature...no, that wasn't a part of the plan. It never was from the start.

“Can you tell me who’s fucking so good right now mortal?” the delicate whisper of your guardian angel, or perhaps it was a demon or maybe the other divine creature who appeared in your room alongside the others, floated in your ears. The voice was far too stable to think it was the same person making you insane.

Your face was planted into the mattress and tears and drool were soaking your bed, while your precious satin sheets were torn and destroyed and shrewd across the floor. A quick plough of your contender’s hips and your body went flying further up the bed before steady hands gripped your shoulder, pressing you into the bed to prevent any escape. “Ah, ah, ah, not so fast love. We don't run from a good fucking, do we now?” you could pinpoint the exact moment when his cynical laughter howled into your skin, tongue slipping past his lips to lick at your sweet mortal flesh. How long has he desired to taste the nectarine of the flesh of the living? You were simply sinfully delicious and he truly wished to devour you in that instant, perhaps just to piss the other growing darkness in the corner of the room.

“But it's okay if you wish to run away, we can go someplace...private,” Melkor's perfectly pitched voice didn't shift in the slightest as he hovered over you, pushing more of his weight onto your fragile mortal body, choking you into the mattress while tantalizing his brother. Had it not been for Irmo's governance over the situation, Manwe would have flown out of his seat and torn Melkor to pieces, but it was law.

Section 4 of the Order of the Deity Act 1: Should the same mortal be favoured by an angel and demon, they would compete for the claim under supervision. The supervisor would suggests the form of competing.

His thrusts were silent and deadly, not even a faint gasp or moan escaped his lips just his disgustingly pleasant words, giving you no clue about who was rearranging your guts so perfectly. All that mattered was the sound of his cock sliding in and out of your heat and squelching and squirting your release all over his thighs.

The heavy, rough hands on your ass, groping and slapping the flesh as though he was kneading dough told you this person was overly rough and aggressive…and an ass lover, hence the reason for your position. Over the course of the hours gone by, he’s introduced you to positions you never thought you’d attempt; even going as far as to take you anally. At first, you were against it, but when you felt his heavy cock sliding along your heat, the slackened jaw and eye roll told him to continue.

You had lost count of the number of rounds he tumbled you in and out of pleasure, tossing you around like some shiny toy. All you knew was that one was either your guardian angel, who was far from pleased when he watched you from the shadows attempting to summon a demon of unspeakable powers, his brother who had once fallen from grace. And the other was, of course, the demon you had summoned because your foolish self didn’t for a second believe that the spell would have worked. Little did you know that your so-called demon had been watching you for nights and days in hopes of stealing you from his brother’s precious grasp. It was he who threw the grimoire within your grasp for you to summon him, what he didn’t expect was for his brother to be so reluctant to let you go without a fight.

Your third contender who joined the session alongside your guardian angel or demon was the unknown figure. The last thing you had seen before you were flipped face-first into the bed was another pair of silver wings and the most divine voice questioning the situation, but you were wise enough to know that both divine creatures were always made to appear godly in the eyes of mortals. You weren't sure if he was having a turn with you since one of them decided it was best to blindfold you and have you choose (unfortunately, he wasn't). Thus, you couldn’t tell if he had good intentions or bad, all you knew was that one of the three was drilling their cock’s into your drenched heat at the moment and you were forced to concentrate and answer the impending question dangling above your head.

Taking so long to answer, the hands of someone a lot more tender and caring reached to tug your blindfolded head upwards to meet their torturous smirk, pleased with the condition you were being brought to. The longer his hands rested upon your skin, the greater the tidal wave of pleasure grew. He was contorting your pleasure, fluctuating it as he pleased with the most sickeningly sweet laughter following whenever you cried out. The excessive volume of tears that had spilt from your eyes from the start to the current could fill the room and still, it wasn’t enough, not for your contender whose delicious hips drove forward and bullied your soft spot aggressively. His laughter entered your body and leave shivers and goosebumps across every expanse.

“I don’t think they’re able to decide who’s giving them undeniable pleasure right now,” mocking and laughing at your fucked out state below him, the endless chuckles easily made your body cave into them more. “Come on now love, didn’t you summon us for a good time? I think it’s only fair that you tell me who’s fucking you right now.”

“B-But I d-don’t know your n-names – ngghh, fuck,” dropping your head from his grip on your chin into the mattress, you cried into the sheets as you felt your body convulsed as the coil snapped and your orgasm flooded your body. Not once had you felt his hands on your clit and yet, he made you cum untouched. Was it a God instead fucking you and not another divinity? Melkor was reluctant to leave your cunt, not when you were still clenching around him like crazy, attempting to milk him for all he's worth. Wiggling his hips and grinding his tip against your soft spot earned him a series and wails and mewls; the best music to his ears. His body was still stuck to yours, sweaty and hot. You could feel the immense heat surging off him; was it possible for someone to feel that hot during sex? His hands were bound front, rubbing your punch where his cum and cock rested and was whispering words foreign to your ears.

“I should keep my seed in here so that I may return a few months later, and then I'll fuck another one in you; keep you as mine and away from my audacious brother.”

It was then, Manwe flew out of the chair and stormed over to his brother, flaring his wings as if he was going to war. In response, Melkor simply ignored his brother with a scoff knowing that Irmo wouldn't allow him to interrupt his little aftercare bliss. Standing at the bedside glaring at you and his brother still wrapped up together, Irmo stood between him and the bed, preventing him from attacking. “I know you're not pleased, but just let him be,” pausing to take a quick glance at Melkor before continuing, he spoke in a hush-hush tone, “I will assist you with winning them over. For now, just relax.”

Manwe didn't even bother with looking at Irmo once, instead, choosing to grind his teeth at the scene unfolding before his eyes. Melkor was still buried in your cunt, whispering some devilry, but Manwe understood each syllable clearly. As much as he knew his brother was riling him up, he was still fearful of losing you for good. He's been at your side since you reached maturity and guided you through every step of the way, to see you turn to his demon of a brother for pleasure sickened him to his core.

Trapped under your Godly creature, you could feel the buildup of pressure in your hips as he was grinding his and vigorously rubbing your puffy clit, coaxing another orgasm from you. Fighting him was impossible because he was greedy and relentless. The grip he held on your body forced you to sink deeper into the mattress as he continuously pinched and slapped at the abused nub. Within seconds, he tore another orgasm from you and finally released his grip to let you slouch into the bed. His cock slipped from your cunt with a trail of cum spilling out after. You couldn't believe one person was capable of releasing so much cum, but he wasn't just a person. The thought was something you wished to assess but not when you felt a different pair of hands resting on your hips. These hands were soft as clouds but held you with venom.

Easily, you felt the hands on your hips turn your body over to now let you rest on your back. You felt as if you were airborne for just a short moment before your legs went airborne and settled on the shoulders of your next contender. This time, you felt his chest rumbling against yours as his caramel voice rang out above, “Our names are Irmo, Manwe and Melkor. Manwe is your guardian angel, the most displeased of us three and brother to Melkor, the demon you summoned, and Irmo…well, he’s a mix between both worlds. He’s a half angel and half demon you can say.”

In some way, there was a bit of relief knowing their names but you didn’t couldn’t tell who was the angel or demon fucking you, they all took you the same – hard, rough and aggressive. You understood that your guardian angel was the most displeased so obviously, he’d fuck you the hardest, but then you had a pleasure deity in the mix, it was obvious he’s fuck you just as demonical as the others (sadly he wasn't going to). Not to mention, the actual demon sitting in the room who probably snatched your soul already. Nothing was truly helpful and all you were able to do was babble nonsense as your body was pressed into the mattress, basically sandwiching you between him and the bed. The unholy chuckles resonated above you as your hands reached out, scrambling to grip his biceps, ghosting your soul. Whomever he was, he was taking you to heaven and hell in the same thrust. His cock felt unlike any other you had before. The previous contender had weight and girth, but this cock had everything perfect to it. Every thrust, even if it wasn't overly aggressive, knocked the air out of your lungs.

At first, you thought it would be best to make a guess and if you were wrong, then you would narrow things down to just two contenders, “...Irmo?” At the name, Manwe sent a harsh thrust followed by a resounding slap to your thigh. His eyes glowed in anger, while his face contorted to reveal just how disappointed he was at your feeble attempts. Grunting when your wails slipped from your lips, he lifted his eyes to meet with Irmo and glared at the fellow half-angel. Irmo simply responded with a charming smile at the superior creature and arched his brow, causing a greater surge of pleasure to flow through you, making your walls spasm and clench undeniably tight around Manwe's cock.

“Wrong name darling, you have one more guess, or the wrong person gets to keep you forever,” you knew this voice was different from the person taking you at the moment. It was more smooth, like savouring the finest wine of a lifetime. The creaminess of his voice melted all your barriers and prompted more juices to flow freely. But there was a deep vibration in the tremors of his words. Manwe's cock was now covered in cream and cum, but he wasn't pleased with the effects of others when it was he who was fucking you.

Manwe wasn’t sure if he wanted to be tender and loving care with you or rearrange your guts before his brother to show him that you always belonged to him from the start. The way his body easily covers yours, excluding his silvery wings that still remained folded behind his back, occasionally fluttering at the increasing intensity of pleasure throughout the course of the night. A firm hand travelled up your body, over your sweaty skin, aggressively tugging and pinching your nipples before settling around your neck to give a fierce squeeze, sucking the air from your chest. “Ngghh – ah,” scrambling to break free of his clutches as he sucked the air from your lungs, you fought tirelessly and hard, but to no avail were you ever successful.

He was your guardian angel you were fighting against for crying out loud; it was his job tasked with protecting you from any negativity and evil. Yet, not too long ago, you decided to play fast and attempted to summon a demon because ‘demons are way more fuckable than angels; angels are just…just’. Those words didn’t fly over Manwe’s head in the slightest form of acceptance and urged him to show you just how performance-worthy an angel was capable of being over any demon. He was stung deeply by your cruel words since after all, it was he who covered you with his wings in the shadows and protected you with his life. To say such profanities within his unknown presence was a slap to his pride when it came to his ability to perform and satisfy.

“To believe that you preferred a demon to fuck you right now; do you still want that? Do you want me to stop?” slowing his hips and inching himself out until just the tip sat at the edge of your entrance, the hauntingly terrifying chuckle he released when you cried out for him to not stop. He laughed in your face, howling at how pathetic and easy it was to conform you to his will. It was laughter that ghosted your soul when you felt his eccentric eyes boring into your covered one. “You know, whether you want for me to stop, I can’t, not when your pussy tells me you like this. You should see the way she's gripping me,” casting a longing glance at where his tip rested, he fucked himself back into your heat like a frantic man, bruising your soft spot in a series of turbulent thrusts.

“Look at you, going to cum all over an angel’s cock and not a demon…shameful. Do you think my brother would want your cunt again when I’m through with you...because I know he's never going to?” he chuckled at how wildly your cunt spasmed around his cock at the filthy comments he was spewing. The legs resting over his shoulder were pushed into a deep stretch as he pressed more of his weight atop you, sinking your smaller frame into the mattress. Manwe couldn’t help but shine in glee the excitement of having your smaller frame pressed under his, sandwiched into the bed.

“M-Manwe?…oh God...p-please…” whining the name with a gasp that he revealed to you recently, he was beginning to regret it since you weren’t worthy enough to speak it for your tongue.

“Now that’s just cheating brother, you just broke the rules,” at the end of Melkor’s disgruntled matter-of-fact question.

“Be quiet, you of all people shouldn't speak of cheating!”Manwe flashed his brother a harsh glare that made him shut up with a smirk and raised hands before he returned his focus to you.

“You too should hold your tongue and not speak my name. Doesn't deserve to fall from such...a dishonourable mortal,” the anger in his eyes was enough to shut you up had his words not done the trick. You felt embarrassed for a series of events you hadn’t been aware of. Summoning a demon, having a guardian angel and then being fucked into the mattress out of…jealousy, possessiveness, and self-worth? Irmo and Melkor couldn’t help but howl at the noteworthy performance Manwe was putting on for them. Irmo was on Manwe’s side and did his best to alter and control your pleasure in hopes of showing you that your angel was far more capable than the demon you summoned, but Melkor was an entirely different breed of demon. Cut from the same branch as Manwe, only exceeding in power when he fell off the good side, Melkor could pull the same pleasure from you just as his brother and even better.

“You are quite the pathetic mess for such a…virtuous and beautiful creature Y/N. To believe a demon, my brother, would have had you like this, under my watch forever…you must be fucking joking,” his growling was growing with each passing second as his hips dug deeper into your thighs. Babbling some incoherent response to his demonical thrusts while he was growling in displeasure, a hand lifted to slap across your mouth, shutting you up. Manwe was growing irritated at your responses because they made no sense. For someone who he admired for their wisdom, you were surely making him question your logic.

He was beyond displeased with everything. Having to watch you love of his brother and then be fucked by him for the sake of the law, made his temper grow in volumes and soon nature reflected his displeasure. The wind howled outside, knocking the tree branches against your window, the skies were no longer clear, instead, they carried blackened clouds that brought rain and lightning. Thunder echoed in the distance and pleasingly, they struck loudly whenever Manwe rolled his hips harshly against your delicate ones. Any stronger and he'd snap you in half. He had forgotten about this being a competition and that he needed to perform to win your interest, instead, he chose to fuck you like a jealous lover.

“Hmmm – pwlease…I ant um…” fighting to moan and beg through his sweat-covered hand, your feeble attempts were met with a silencing stare.

“What was that; you want to cum? Speak up a little louder darling, just like when you were reading that spell,” his eyes lingered on the contortions of your face in all forms of pleasure as his teasing continued and he ignored your orgasm. The hands around your mouth gripped your cheeks to squeeze them firmly, “if you desire to cum all over my cock, you best start showing some respect, yeah.” His thick cock couldn’t help but bully the gummy walls inside of your cunt, enjoying the tightening every few minutes. A silent 'thank you' was said to Irmo. Your mind was hazed from the terror folding you into your bed and claiming to be an angel when he fucked your cunt like a demon. He was disgusted by his brother's cum covering his cock and being stuffed like cream back into your cunt with ease. A burst of sickeningly sweet laughter and low guttural moans were slowly building up behind the laughter. Manwe knew he was close to filling your walls and removing any trace of his brother, and this time, he was claiming you as his. His brother could go find someone else to sleep with, you belonged to him. Always and forever.

“Maybe I should let you cum and then fill you with my seed, ward off any unwanted visitors. Claim you as mine with a child...hmm. I bet you'd love that; bind us together...” his voice could help but trail off as he analyzed every possible outcome to keep you as his forever. What was the best way to keep his brother away from you? Knowing Melkor, you carrying his brother's seed wouldn't even stop him from attempting to come around, but it was worth the shot. He was a demon, after all, they never abided by the rules.

“Gwod, pwlease et me cum,” still muffled by his hand, you begged as your orgasm was being played with. You were so close to the edge, all you wanted was the extra push.

Snapping his eye over to your blindfolded ones, he dragged the hand off your mouth to yank the cloth off, wanting you to view the actual God that was the reason behind your pleasure, and then returned it to your throat and squeezed tightly. The starry twinkling in your eyes from all the buildup of tears gave you an angelic look. At that moment, Manwe couldn't help but scoff at how pure you thought yourself to be, “Let this be your last warning mortal, don’t ever try to make a fool out of your guardian angel. I won’t be so nice again.”

Masterlist

Taglist: @spidergirla5 @someoneinthestars @eunoiaastralwings @lilmelily @aconstructofamind @mysticmoomin @edensrose

Kinktober 🏷: @rain-on-my-umbrella @something-about-twilight @hoshinokurasa @wandererindreams @aconstructofamind

[nelyos-right-hand]

I've been reading post-reembodiement fics lately, and Fëanor trying to fix his relationship with his sons/ making amends for his mistakes is a pretty common occurrence in them.

Whenever that happens Curufin is almost always the first to forgive his father, and if Fëanor starts to make stupid choices again, he is often the first to support him.

And I see why many people see it that way. In the Silm, Celegorm and Curufin are their father's strongest supporters and the most ruthless when it comes to following their oath. Curufin is also described to be Fëanor Junior and they probably had a very close relationship.

But what if that changes after the first age?

Through the entire first age, Curufin continued to believe in the oath and their father. Sure, the others followed the oath as well, but I don't think that any of them did it because they actually believed in it.

Maedhros did it because Fingon was dead and he had stopped caring. Maglor, Caranthir and the Ambarussar did it because the oath was driving them. Celegorm did it because he was no longer sane and wanted revenge and bloodshed. He did it because he was hurting and now it was time for others to hurt.

But Curufin still did it for Fëanor. Because yes, right now things were looking pretty bad, but in the end everything would turn out fine. They were going to get the Silmaril, and then they were going to defeat Morgoth, fulfill their oath and make their father proud. Things were still going according to plan. Curufin himself might be unable to see it right now, but that's just because Fëanor was a genius. He had planned for this because he wouldn't have made them swear the oath if he hadn't, right? Everything was gonna be fine, all he had to do was trust his father.

But then suddenly he turned around just in time to see Dior drive his sword through Celegorm's chest. And he didn't even have time to process that because in the next moment he was hit by an arrow, and another, and another, and another.

Curufin didn't live very long after that, maybe two or three seconds. But in that time he realized something.

Things were not going according to plan. They couldn't because there was no plan. Fëanor didn't have any idea what he was doing when he swore the oath. And he most certainly didn't have his sons' welfare in mind at that moment.

They wouldn't get the Silmarils, not even one of them. They wouldn't fulfill the oath and they wouldn't defeat Morgoth. They wouldn't even survive.

Celegorm was dead and Curufin was dying and their other brothers would die soon too, and it would all be for nothing. He had spend the last five-hundred years believing in and fighting for a purpose that wasn't even a real purpose but the fantasies of a dead madman.

He had been betrayed by the person he loved most and now he would die for him.

(Hint-Celebrimbor-hint)

(Alright, so Fëanor didn't actually betray Curufin because that would mean that he did it on purpose or that he had any ill intentions towards him. That, of course, wasn't the case because Fëanor did love his sons dearly, he just, you know, went absolutely mad after Finwë's death. Curufin just feels betrayed because he is dying and stuff.)

So back in Valinor Curufin has the most trouble forgiving his father. That surprises Fëanor as much as the rest of the family cause it kind of contradicts his actions in his previous life but maybe death does that to people.

In the end he does forgive him of course, but it takes some time to fix their relationship and it takes way longer for him to trust Fëanor again then it did for the rest of his sons.

These are just some loose thoughts cause it's the middle of the night and I'm bored but I think it's interesting because it's different from what we usually see of Curufin.

[eri-pl]

Silm reread 16: Beren, Luthien, and the fourth wall,

through which Pengolodh needs to be punched a little. Or at least frightened.

So… This chapter is a lot.

First we get a remainder that we are in a narrative frame: there are many stories but this one is the best. So I, Pengolodh, will make sure it sounds proper.

Also, why is the Lay of Leithian… I thought "Leithian" was some variant of Luthien, but it's "Release from Bondage". What. Why. I guess it's that one scene where she takes Sauron's island?

Before I proceed: I wanted to say that writing a love story dedicated to your wife and overloading it with meanings is an absolutely valid thing to do. And beautiful.

Yes, this is an opinion I will stick with. No, it doesn't mean that I think everything in B&L is coherent or well-written. Most is, but there are places that stick out.

So we start with Beren. He lives with his fatherr and a band of outlaws and… they worship a (lake? river? translation unclear.) because Melian had hallowed it.

They are so competent that Morgoth tells Sauron (his 2nd in command) to kill them all.

Again we have a character with unprocessed grief (nor surprising, as he doesn't know whether his wife is alive or dead) and it is the entry point for the forces of evil. So, Gorlim. Sauron pulls the Dune-like thing on him. I wonder which was first. Jirt didn't like Dune, but had read it.

Beren sees Gorlim's ghost, in the (hallowed?) water, which is an interesting place for a ghost to appear. good for him I guess?

What is the thing with hands? Beren attacks the orcs and grabs his dead father's hand with the ring of Barahir. Unclear which hand was that. Also, he becomes vegan.

Beren is so competent that he gets a "wanted" poster Morgoth offers a prize for his head. As high as for Fingon. OK, so Morgoth gives money for killing important people? Or at least offers money? We aren't told if he ever actually paid anyone. But the orcs still prefer to run away, so he sends Sauron + a whole army and his werewolves.

How competent can one guy be?

Also, we get an explanation of what werewolves are. Terrible ghosts imprisoned in wolves' bodies and posessing them. This chapter has more on werewolves then the whole rest of the book.

So, Beren has to evacuate through Spider-land. Which he manages to do. (Seriously, how many Fate Points does this guy have?)

Luthien is so beautiful that he falls in love instantly. I would be more comfortable if Tolkien didn't show falling in love as simultanously a) totally uncontroleable result of beauty, and b) impossible to not turn into action. But Beren is a good guy so he is polite, he just admires her and stuff.

Also, she's got the exact same poetic colors of hair and eyes as Elrond, which makes sense. Or, more precisely, Elrond as her.

Fate this, fate that, I get the point but don't like the language.

Beren gets kind of sick, because he has to gain more Fate Points pays for the great destiny he is going to get.

I am not going to repeat that part I complained about already. Let's just say there's a lot of "she/they were the most X of everyone in all times" and this sounds, well, poetic but not factual. (Also, they are "the most happy anyone has ever been". )

Daeron snitches on Luthien (part 1). Thingol is sad and confused and asks questions. Beren says "I found what I didn't seek, but as I found it I will never give it up" and that is a really good line.

Thingol, of all people, complains of having made a hasty oath. :D

Beren would take death before dishonor. Also shows Finrod's ring and Thingol isn't very impressed. (I think this may be used as a counterargument to "Finrod should have written to Thingol" — Beren has already shown the credentials he could get from Finrod. What additional things could Finrod tell Thingol?)

We get a description of the ring of Barahir.

Melian tries to calm het husband down, but he is upset and resentful at Beren. And he says that he desires the Silmaril (does he? Did he desire it before he said that? Unclear)

At least Thingol says that with the Silmaril he will give Luthien to Beren if she will want to, which is very proper of him. Also he mentions the "fate of Ards is tied to the Silmarils" thing. Everyone realizes that he just wants Beren dead (so I guess it is a fact?)

Beren is very chill. He says "bye" to Luthien, bows. And then he moves the guards and just walks away ignoring them which is an awesome way of leaving.

Melian is worried, Thingol says that Beren will not return, and if he (thingol) believed that there is any chance of success for him, he would kill Beren, promise or not.

We have a lot of "Lay of Laithian says" so I guess this is suposed to be a later edition... I should do a reread (well, first read tbh) on the Lay one day. But it's hard to read with focus.

Beren goes to Nargothrond, and (so that the guards don't shoot him) yells often that he is Barahir's son. Which must have looked quite funny.

Also, Turgon isn't the only one with "shoot the intruders" policy, but Finrod's one seems less strict.

Finrod talks with Beren behind closed doors (I think it's because C&C. Finrod isn't naive, he's just… idk. Anyway this is a smart move.) Also he is surprised and sad and heavy-hearted because he realizes he's going to have to die. At leats he doesn't try to weasel out of his fate.

Also, Finrod says a lot of interesting / strange things:

the Oath is on again. So, we are in the "oath is an active thing" situation. Probably.

there is a "curse of hatered" on the Silmarils. (Huh??? Who cursed them? I don't remember Fefe cursing the jewels, he cursed many other things…)

who speaks their name with greed, awakens poweerful forces (WHAT? So… Thingol is greedy about the jewel? And it triggers the Oath? Or what? that's… a whole new conceptual area to explore)

the Feanorians would rather destroy all lands then let anyone else have a Silmaril (I'm not sure how true this is but him saying this tells us something about C&C)

the Oath "rules over the princes of Noldor" (What. Finrod, my guy, you are a Noldorin prince too. Also, what. What about their free will?)

C&C are a problem but Finrod won't break his word to Barahir, so we all are deep in trouble

Finrod makes a speech, expects support from his people. It's not said what kind of support. He doesn't say he is going to attack Angband directly.

Celegorm takes out his sword and quotes the Oath. That's pretty metal, but also definitely not good. Curufin is apparently more polite now (iirc he was brash some chapters earlier, I guess he learned. Or it was Celegorm too?). Citizens of Nargothrond are scared of war, they get sneaky, start using poison and generally turn Nor Great from this time on. Huh.

The Doom of Mandos awakes in C&C's hearts and gives them evil thoughts. This is a very close paraphrase. Excuse me, what? Pengolodh, what have you been drinking? something made by Namo (or one of his Maiar, which I find more likely, but anyway) makes them think evil things? Go home and check your phrasing, seriously. This sounds so off. Unless it's the translation again?

Finrod appeals to pity and gets ten guys to follow him. I agree that this speech of him doesn't sound great and … I think he just feels sad and abandoned and does some emotional blackmailing here. and Finrod is awesome but not so awesome to never do anything wrong. It's not terrible, but, yes, I think he would be better without it.

[Which implies that if it was just him and Beren, Sauron would not try to kill Beren earlier. Which… makes some sense. When you have 12 prisoners, killing one as an example isn't a lot. when you have just two, you need to use subtler means of persuasion. (sorry for a bit of Sauron PoV ;) )]

Still, Edrahil is pretty cool here. I like him. Yes, those two opinions can coexist and it is an important point.

The song duel. Finrod picks "Of secrets kept," as his starting line, which makes sense in the context (keeping their disguise) but also, considering what kind of secret had Finrod been keeping (mostly from Thingol, who is btw associated with this quest) for many, many years, I would say it does have a weak point.

So it leads to "In Valinor, the red blood flowing" and we're out.

Luthien feels that things are bad and asks mom and mom tells her that Beren is captured by Sauron. Which she knows. Because she's a Maia, probably? But still, to see into Sauron's dungeons is quite an achievement. Maybe fate was a factor too.

Huan! The dog that is under the Doom of the Noldor! It seems as if this was the reason he later dies at all, that without the Doom thing Huan would be immortal. What even is he. [A lesser Maia. I don't care it's no longer canon, it makes the most sense.]

Also, he never sleeps, his sight and smell can't be deceived and he is invulnerable to magic.

C&C capture Luthien and we have their reasoning explained. So, C&C's logic as told by the narrative:

Finrod and Beren are as good as dead now

so let's let Finrod die

also let's force Thingol to let Tyelko marry Luthien

we will be the most powerful princes of the Noldor

the Silmarils, yea, so let's wait. first we will rule all the Elven kingdoms and then we can work on reclaiming the Silmarils.

No, it doesn't mean that someone else may take them!

Yes, it is explicitely about political power. (But also, Luthien pretty and Celegorm is into her.)

Also, Huan (like Celegorm) understands all creatures.

Finrod dies. Pengolodh edits it heavily. Seriously, I hereby accept this fic as my canon for what finrod said, because the book is lying. Oh wait, no. It is the translation. In the Polish version Finrod literally says "it will be many ages before the Noldor see me" and he says it without "probably" or anything, he says it like a foresight. And we know it is not true, because he got reembodied very quickly.

The original is not that bad. Anyway, it is lacking. It reads like something Celegorm would say in the situation (no offense to Celegorm who had actually been in this situation in early drafts).

[HC time: I imagine Pengolodh as very much the kind of guy to get offended by and cut out anything that looks too strange and … I don't know how to call it. Difficult? He's not terrible, but very insecure after returning from the Exile. He really doesn't want to offend the Valar again and isn't taking the best approach to it.]

And, speaking of Pengolodh and his additions, "so died Finrod, the most beloved descendant of Finwe". Beloved by whom? Certainly not by Finwe. Maybe by the people, but it does depend on which people exactly. Most beloved on the average? Most beloved by Pengolodh?

Pengolodh, my guy, I actually agree with you that Finrod is the loveliest Finwean, but please, could you refrain from using "loved / beloved" and comparisions?

Anyway, song-rescue. This is something even Pengolodh can't mess up describing. Also, Valacirca (Sickle of the Valar, that is: the Big Dipper) mentioned, and … it's a sign of Morgoth's fall? I thought this one was a threat to him. (Yes, let me remind you: there is not one, but two different seven(ish)-star constellations that Varda put in the sky specifically as a threat to Melkor. Also, of all the weapons, a sickle.)

Sauron seems to have a thing with "standing on a high place and smiling/laughing just before he gets wrecked". (Later he does it as Numenor is falling). I hereby HC that just before he noticed the Ring being in the Crack of doom, he also stood high atop his tower and laughted (because Aragorn's army was losing).

I'm tired. I'll cut B&L reread into two parts.

[polutrope]

By the way, do you have the impression that Turgon and Thingoil are characters that I think Tolkien liked and admired much more than most people who write fanfics, that Tolkie really admired them and has better opinions of them than many people in the fandom in relation to fanfic about them.

Hi Anon!

I am probably not the most knowledgeable about fandom-wide opinions because most of the opinions I'm exposed to are from people on my dash that I've chosen to follow, and I read fic by and recommended by that community of people. That being said, I try to branch out and remain open to various interpretations. My experience participating in fandom this way has actually led me to a lot of people and writers with quite nuanced, generally favourable opinions on Turgon and Thingol! It's only from those people that I have heard that this is not necessarily the norm 😔.

Based on what I have heard and occasionally encountered, I do think Tolkien "liked and admired" Turgon and Thingol more than many readers in fandom, but, crucially, I don't think he was approaching them with the same mindset as most of those fans who take an unfavourable, even hostile, view of them.

I'm not an expert on Tolkien the Man, i.e. who he was as a person and how that was brought into his writing, but I do know that he was a scholar and enjoyer of literary traditions that did not follow the conventions of dominant contemporary storytelling. Many of the stories that inspired Tolkien were about legendary, epic heroes who were violent, fallible, selfish, etc... but still heroes -- basically because the genre said so. I didn't study Norse and Anglo-Saxon culture and traditions like Tolkien, but I did study Homeric literature a bit and the stories and heroes of the Silmarillion have always reminded me of those legends and characters (it's why I love it!).

I think it's impossible to reach a conclusive argument about the morality of or a verdict on the actions of e.g., Homer's Achilles or Odysseus. It can be diverting, an interesting mental exercise, creatively fulfilling, but I think the storytelling is ultimately incompatible with that kind of analysis. The characters just are what they are, and if the text says they are Great then they are. That's that.

I believe it's that way with Thingol and Turgon. We are told they are glorious and wise kings but a lot of what they actually do doesn't seem very glorious or wise. (Feanor is like this, too -- big time lol.) I think that's because the genre/traditions the Silm is inspired by do not necessitate that the story back up a character's "quality of excellence." We are just invited to accept it.

My sense is that that is not satisfying to many people (works for me though!). It is interesting to judge characters for their actions. It's what contemporary novels/TV/film/etc invite us to do, and many like doing it (again, not really me, but I'm strange).

(Tolkien's later writings, like LotR and some of the post-LotR writings, do invite this kind of reading, and I think that Tolkien at that stage was taking pains to show as well as tell us that X character was noble/wise/brave/etc. Which brings me to an issue that I think is at the root of so many interpretive disagreements about the published Silmarillion, namely that it's compiled from a selection of drafts written over decades and those drafts are not always compatible with one another in terms of genre and tone. Christopher did his darned best, and anyone who has read through HoMe will appreciate what an impressive job he did, but while he could iron out inconsistencies, without extensive rewriting -- which he was determined not to do -- I think incompatibilities like this were unavoidable. So we get Tinwelint from the 1917-19 Tale of the Nauglafring blended in a soup with Thingol of the 1950s Narn i Hin Hurin and the result makes for a bit of a strange aftertaste. There's even some full-on characterisation whiplash for those who are looking very very closely, as us fans like to do. Turgon is another character whose story is drawn from disparate strands of the Silmarillion's textual history, hmm... maybe something there.)

So, I have been theorising that all this is possibly why there seems to be a disconnect between Tolkien's presentation of characters like Thingol and Turgon and how much of the fandom receives and interprets them. Storyteller and reader are looking at things through incompatible lenses. Which is interesting! I think the problems (and vitriol) arise when people are not recognising that their opinions are filtered through a particular lens.

Probably far more than you were looking for with this Ask, but this issue has been circulating in my mind. I hope it makes some sense. I am trying to articulate half-formed thoughts through the fog of a head cold.

[imakemywings]

Hey, were you the one who posted how Maglor himself thought the oath and kinslayings were such evil acts? If so, how come there are those who still believe the second and third kinslaying is justified when Maglor himself thought it to be such an evil deed? I really need like a solid reasoning cause I was talking to someone who still believes the kinslayings were justified/needed and doesn't take my "murder is wrong" thing as a reason lol

That was indeed my post! If we're thinking of the same one. I've definitely made a post like that.

I mean I don't really know what to say besides "murder is wrong" lol If we can't agree on that um. I don't really know where we go.

The argument in favor of the kinslayings that I've seen usually boils down to property rights. Because the Silmarils are the rightful (and that's honestly debatable) property of the Feanorians, anyone who keeps the Silmarils from them deserves what they get, basically.

Which is. Kind of bonkers as a moral philosophy, even if you DO buy that the Feanorians have an uncontested right to the Silmarils. #1: We're punishing theft or conversion with DEATH now? That's acceptable to us? #2: The harm the Feanorians caused went far beyond the individual who possessed the Silmaril (Dior in the Second Kinslaying and Elwing in the Third). Even if Dior had taken that Silmaril right out of Maedhros' hand and spit in his eye on the way out it wouldn't justify the wholesale slaughter of an entire kingdom. They literally murdered children over things. Items. Stuff. Magical cool stuff yeah--but they valued it over lives. Does anyone honestly think Tolkien would have written a story agreeing with that as a moral view?

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." (Thorin's final words, The Hobbit)

I don't know how you look at Maedhros and Maglor--the ONLY two of SEVEN sons to survive through the Third Kinslaying--and think THEY think they did the right thing. Five of their brothers have now died in assaults on other Elves which they began. Maglor argues for breaking the oath there, he resists Maedhros' drive to the Fourth Kinslaying (until he doesn't), and at the end of it all, he throws his precious Silmaril into the sea. Maedhros kills himself over it. These are not the actions of people who feel GOOD about where their lives have gone and the actions they've taken. Tolkien is so blatantly obvious about the Feanorians being in the wrong it's always a little wild to me that the KINSLAYINGS get defended.

On the note of the Fourth Kinslaying, let's not forget that: That after everything, after the War of Wrath is over and everyone is ready to go home and see their families and be at peace, a whole group of Elves get murdered by Maglor and Maedhros again over the Silmarils. A group--Eonwe's guard--of people who had survived a war with MORGOTH die because Maedhros and Maglor weren't willing to break their oath.

An oath which Tolkien casts as wicked from the very start--something that was always likely to bring them to evil acts.

"Then Feanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords...and many quailed to hear the dread words." ("Of the Flight of the Noldor," The Silmarillion)

Furthermore, as Dior points out in some versions outside Silm proper, at the time the Second Kinslaying is committed, Melkor still has two of the Silmarils. Even if Dior had handed over Luthien's Silmaril--to the people who had kidnapped and attempted to forcibly marry and presumably rape his mom; and also tried to murder her and his father later on--the oath is still not fulfilled, because Melkor has two.

The fact that the Feanorians choose to pursue Luthien's Silmaril with violence and bloodshed rather than make a go at the two that Melkor has has always revealed their hypocrisy to me. They chose Luthien's Silmaril because they knew it would be easier to get than the ones that Melkor has. Easier to kill other Elves if they don't give you what you want, than to attack or infiltrate Angband. Even now, when they know it's possible--because Beren and Luthien did it, and they had FAR fewer resources at hand than the Feanorians (and for the record, Fingon also successfully infiltrated Angband; Gwindor and others have successfully escaped from Angband)--they choose to slay other Elves instead. Say again the Second Kinslaying was "necessary"?

This is how Tolkien describes the attack on the Havens:

"And so there came to pass the last and cruelest of the slayings of Elf by Elf; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath. For the sons of Feanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them." ("Of the Voyage of Earendil," The Silmarillion)

Does this description sound like people taking justified action? And let's not forget, in this battle, the Feanorians' own troops are so horrified by their actions that they turn against them.

"In that battle some of their [the Feanorians'] people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords...Too late the ships of Cirdan and Gil-galad the High King came hasting to the aid of the Elves of Sirion; and Elwing was gone, and her sons." ("Of the Voyage of Earendil," The Silmarillion)

Members of the Feanorians' own people find their actions so terrible they cannot simply join those who stand by and refuse to attack the Havens, but they actively join the fight on the side of the Havens. Moreover, the heroic Gil-galad arrives intending to stop the Feanorians and aid the Havens. Sure, he arrives too late--but his intent is made clear: the Feanorians are the villains here, who need to be stopped.

And I don't think it is uncontested that the Silmarils belong to the Feanorians. For one, they were created entirely and only by Feanor; none of his sons had anything to do with it. And for two, the universe itself has deemed by the end that the Feanorians no longer have a property right in them, when the Silmarils burn the hands of Maedhros and Maglor because of all the evil they've committed. The jewels themselves will not be touched by these people who have done so much wrong. Eonwe tries to warn them about this before they even commit the Fourth Kinslaying.

"And they [Maedhros and Maglor] sent a message therefore to Eonwe, bidding him yield up those jewels...But Eonwe answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Feanor had formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens." ("Of the Voyage of Earendil," The Silmarillion [emphasis added])

Like...I don't know how the book could be more clear that the Kinslayings were wrong and that Maedhros and Maglor were in the wrong.

I think fans are so invested in the Feanorians they're willing to bend over backwards to find some view where they didn't actually commit horrific war crimes and were in fact in the right. But that's just not the story Tolkien wrote. Also, you can like them and still admit they did horrible things. You are allowed to like characters who are in the wrong!