#snw negativity

[isagrimorie]

I finally saw the SNW clip for season 3 — first of all why that clip — I was expecting a first look from the cliffhanger.

Second… that’s… that’s not how you do Vulcan. Vulcan emotional control isn’t a biological thing. It’s TRAINING.

Years of training from childhood to adulthood leading to the final step.

It took Tuvok years to master!

Vulcans without emotional training are just ROMULANS.

[croc-odette]

the way it took less episodes for tng to begin to humanize the borg the most inhuman trek villains who were actively built up as literally like faceless drones there wasnt much of an ethical implication about killing but literally their second appearance in best of both worlds already trying to imagine what it would be like to be a borg drone from picards perspective and next they show up in i borg where its like ok we take the normal star trek approach of seeing every living being as worthwhile and not inherently monstrous and so on that was fewer episodes than what theyre doing with the gorn its like crazy

Even just from a style perspective, the borg spent a few episodes like ‘oh no, scary!’ And then bc that would have been boring to just keep doing, they started to do eps like ‘what if we captured a borg, could we ethically send it back with a disease to kill all of them’ or even just some pure drama of ‘what if captain picard…. BECAME a borg???’ And then an episode following up on the guilt of that. And even then, I was surprised how few tng episodes were about the borg. Snw is hamstrung by having half the eps in a season, but instead of really packing new stuff in, they keep wasting time on ‘what if we had cool guns to kill gorn monsters with’. Which while fun or silly in its own self-aware genre, feels really out of place and boring in Star Trek.

I think it also is just an incoherent view of the gorn as a species. They’re instinct-driven violent predators with no intelligence; but they’re also smart enough to build ships and space suits? They’re cannibalistic, but they’re also able to work together to command ships. They’re animals who are just trying to eat; but actually they’re intelligent enough to be ‘pure evil’. It’s whatever is convenient in the moment to justify unexamined thrill in murdering them.

If they were animals with instinctive behavior, then I think the Star Trek precedent would be: let’s defend ourselves and get the fuck out of here, but also these are just animals trying to survive and reproduce (ie: picard wouldn’t develop a bloodthirsty vengeful hatred against all bears if a bear killed a crew member). There is no ethical behavior behind animals eating and surviving. A wasp is kind of gross when it reproduces by injecting its eggs into another insect, but it’s not ‘evil’.

But that would mean the gorn wouldn’t be intelligent enough to have spaceships, which creates the convenient problem that our brave heroes HAVE to keep killing them without debate bc the gorn are able to pursue them! So somehow the gorn are smart enough to build spaceships capable of pursuing starfleet ships. They are smart enough for their actions to be considered ‘evil’. But not smart enough to be considered a race with a culture or intellect.

I’ve already talked about how the ep where they say the gorn block telepathy, meaning spock can’t talk to them, is a deliberate way of writing off diplomacy as a possibility. Those nasty gorn are just so mean and violent (and capable enough) that they block telepathy! It’s their fault! Which prevents a devil in the dark Horta solution, and allows the show to shrug and keep using guns as a solution.

I say all of this crap not because I really care about the integrity of the gorn. Who cares, it’s a fun alien. But in a franchise that wants to claim political awareness and goodness, its unsettling to dissect repeated writing choices over and over again (not just about the gorn) that support classic conservative and jingoistic talking points. “The enemy isn’t human or even intelligent, it’s an animal operating on base instincts; except when it’s so smart it can outwit our brave soldiers. And when you kill them, you can ENJOY killing them, because it’s one more dead enemy.”

The borg, changelings, jem hedar, Klingons, romulans— they were handled, some more than others, in ways that should invite criticism and skepticism about the intentions of the show. But they were humanized and explored further than ‘excuse to hand everyone an assault rifle and swat armor.’ A new show would ideally be improving or challenging past shows’ failures or missteps, not taking a huge step back. The gorn problem is even more glaring because it’s a sharp and bleak turn from the themes of trek shows that precede SNW, and from the actual episode the gorn come from.

[dearemma]

2.10. was another episode which under-used and undermined una in every scene. she was either supporting spock emotionally (which i appreciated, to be honest, it shows their long-standing dynamic), but she fails to do much more. she can’t come up with something to help, but erica can (conveniently erasing the fact una used to be helmsman before). she doesn’t... do a lot to try and save the cayuga crew? the lack of rescue efforts for people on the ship once they get sensors bothered me.

this has been my opinion since the first episode, and its never getting better. una is never well-used, never gets the chance to be clever or save the day. she is there to give a bad opinion and for someone to suggest something better and to support pike, spock and la'an emotionally.

which is criminal. she was such an excellent character in the cage. so interesting and dynamic in discovery, and here, she lost all her edge and mystery. at this point, i'm honestly hoping rebecca wants to quit, and they give the job to la'an (who basically acts as first officer already in most episodes).

[green-blooded]

if you want to know one of my major issues with s2 of snw, compare under the cloak of war with ds9's episode duet

[captainofthestrangestship]

I don't know why I'm completely fine with the Enterprise being way bigger in SNW than it was in TOS but every time they show a shuttle, I'm like, why is it so big, that shuttle is way too big, why is there so much space between the seats????

[conflictaverse]

feel free to ignore me having a little mental breakdown about my favorite unloved character

okay no but imagine being sam and seeing one of your closer friends not at all worried about why you're upset and bonding with your brother over how "unreasonable" you are and then add in your boss who treats you like shit that's cool that's very cool that's neat love how this show does not give a shit about sam at all

[nursc]

subspace rhapsody canon divergence

i really enjoyed the ep. i love musicals episodes, the good ones and the bad ones. and there were great moments in this one - the first song, christine and uhura’s solos, the pike song moment which made me yell out loud. it was not perfect, there were some cringe-ass moments which i felt could have been written better, but on the whole, i can’t wait to have access to the soundtrack so i can put some of these songs on repeat.

however, we do have something... weird going on here with christine which i'm not sure i like, or will be acknowledging.

let's go back to spock amok, where we get christine's line about relationships:

You're supposed to put her ahead of your duties. That's what being in a relationship is, it's mutual sacrifice. Pretty much why I avoid them.

we see that she keeps her relationship with the lieutenant from the other ship light, and runs away the second he tries to make it into something real.

by keeping the relationship not very serious, making it a long distance thing, based on physical compatibility rather than emotional one, christine could stay safe. which is the opposite of the relationship that was being built with spock.

she talks to him, listens to his problems, becomes involved in them, shares personal things about herself. we see that she is building there a relationship based on trust, that she is actually invested in.

when they finally enter into a relationship, it is after she acknowledges she has serious feelings about him, that go way beyond friendship. she puts saving him before the fellowship, forgets about the interview. it's m'benga who has to remind her.

we see she is struggling with the relationship, trying to take it slow in the next episode, and that using a convoluted metaphor, she is able to explain herself to spock and they seem to be in a very good place by the next episode from background shots.

boimler scares her with his knowledge about the future. how she is not a part of it (let's take a second and appreciate jess right here, and the way christine tries to smile for a second because she can't let someone see her shatter but fails and looks away from him):

but they are working on their communication problems! at the end of the episode, we know that she talked to spock because he confronts boimler about it:

her fear of intimacy and letting herself get hurt. his vulcan emotions, they are making it work by communicating with each other.

in the next episode, which deals with war trauma, once again we're hit with a wrench but the??? context?? is so specific? this is about christine's war trauma, the probable promise she made to m'benga never to tell anyone about what happened on the moon and what he did. she can't be open about it because the wounds are fresh, and it is not just her secret to tell. which makes sense, and even couples with excellent communication skills would probably end up having some troubles within this context.

however, the writers used this problem as a pretext for what happens on episode 9 which i think is completely different. this is about work. three months back on earth to work on a fellowship.

christine's first thought is how excited she is. her second one is that she needs to tell spock and talk to him.

but... they never do. somehow she has time to tell sam??? but she doesn't have time to tell spock?? yes, they are working on something, but i don't believe that she couldn't have stolen a moment away between meetings to tell him about the fellowship.

instead, we get several instances of miscommunication. it is not even problems in communication, it is simply the show doesn't even allow them a second to try and talk about it. we get spock seeing korby's name on the communication log and then walking in on christine celebrating. two improbable, probable moments which felt forced in order to make this work.

the thing is, christine, always, always, sacrificed herself until now. we see that for spock, for something that's serious and matters, she is willing to put herself on the line. at the end of spock amok, serene squall, we get moments of them talking through the problems of the day, or christine giving him the out he needs. when he is ignoring her at the start of the season, in charades, she does call him out on it, showing that she is hurt by his actions. during all those who wander, we see her chasing after him when he is hurt in order to provide him comfort.

christine is not good at communicating because she has intimacy issues. but christine is always willing to work, and put other people's needs ahead of her own. she did not want to face her feelings for spock until his life was on the line (charades). so her hurting him this way? the way the song ends on a callous note and she doesn't try to find him like she's done multiple times before? feels out of character.

christine can hurt people with her intimacy issues, but never this way. she knows herself, she knows that when she is in a relationship, she is the one who makes the sacrifice, the one who puts the other person ahead of herself. so now that she is with spock, she wouldn't just accept the fellowship and not tell him immediately.

i feel like the events of this episode were contrived for spock to have his song about being an ex, instead of letting it develop naturally.

in my interpretation, she would find a way to tell him very quickly. not because she is afraid he'll hear it from someone else, but because she is excited and wants to share it with him. her song is all her excitement that she's gotten the fellowship. why wouldn't she want to share it with her partner.

again, if she had time to tell sam, she would have time to tell spock.

christine can never be callous. she can be emotional, and angry, and determined, but callous? if the song is about her truth, it should have been about wanting to talk to him, while also wanting to explore her passions.

tldr. christine talked to spock before her song and told him she wanted to do the fellowship, but that she would be able and they'd stay in touch ( if that's what he wants, she would add ). she would fight against her own instincts of keeping everything bottled up because she could never hurt him in such a callous, stupid way. at her core, she is someone who would rather hurt herself than hurt another.

[uncertainlogic]

as someone who lived near a military base in the aftermath of 9/11, this new episode of snw is by far the most disgusting star trek episode i've ever seen and i'm so angry right now that i'm shaking.

[lostyesterday]

To be completely honest, I personally find Michael Burnham to be an infinitely more interesting character than Christopher Pike, and I have difficulty understanding why so many people seem to have the opposite opinion. Burnham has a well-developed arc over the course of Discovery, going from uncertain and traumatized ex-convict who doesn’t know who to trust to commander desperate to redeem herself to successful and self-fulfilled captain with a circle of close friends and an unwavering hope for the future. Over the five seasons of the show, she deals with intense feelings of guilt and responsibility, and her perfectionism and at times unhealthy commitment to her mission. She makes mistakes and comes to new understandings about herself and the world. I absolutely admit there are flaws in the writing of Discovery and issues with Burnham’s arc, but I found her story very compelling in every season and I think she’s a fascinating character.

Meanwhile, Pike’s major arcs so far have been concerned with: 1. An ableist storyline about how horrifying it is that he’s going to become disabled in the future, and 2. Figuring out how to balance personal/romantic relationships with being a captain. Obviously from my phrasing I take major issue with that first arc and I think it’s been handled about as poorly as it possibly could have been in both Discovery and SNW – depicting becoming paralyzed as a fate at least as bad as death without any nuance or self-awareness. In theory, I might find a character arc centered around questions about the inevitability of fate interesting, but SNW does extremely little to explore such questions and instead just reminds the audience over and over how terrifying it is that Pike is going to become disabled and there’s nothing he can do to stop it. And his eventual acceptance of his fate has nothing to do with realizing that being disabled isn’t actually a fate as terrible as death, but rather realizing that if he changes his fate Bad Things will happen, and therefore he just has to accept it. I do not find this interesting. As for the second arc, and I admit this is a personal preference, I find it to be the most boring possible arc for a Star Trek captain. I don’t care about his relationship with Batel (I frankly don’t think SNW has given me any reason to), and I don’t find the idea that both of them being captains makes it so hard for them to spend time together at all interesting.

It’s not that I take issue with any individual person liking Pike as a character (people can like whichever characters they want, of course), it’s just that I personally struggle to find anything of interest in how his character has been written so far. And of course I know that racism and sexism play a large part in general fandom preferences and white male characters are almost always going to get preferential treatment on average, but I will never not find it confusing that a giant bunch of the fandom looked at a character I find to be one of the most boring in all of Star Trek (and certainly the most boring captain), and decided they liked him more than the character I would easily call the best in NuTrek.

[mai-komagata]

more sneak peak speculation

ok no more being defensive about this jam, gonna talk about things that i think are interesting/could go places. Feel free to reply with your own theories, just no outright negativity? pls? (I dont mind saying you don't like certain things in the context of analysis, just maintain the basic assumption that the writers are trying to tell a story in good faith).

1. In Charades, Spock learned that being fully human would not solve his problems. Any gains he got in connection with his crewmates, or greater emotional availability had tradeoffs: losing who he fundamentally was. Him not being able to connect telepathically with his mother must have felt like losing a limb if that limb was a childhood memory.

I'm seeing how the crew is seeing all these supposed benefits to being Vulcan. But I think faced with the prospect of being Vulcan forever, greater work efficiency is gonna take a huge backseat to completely losing your identity and sense of self.

2. I commented before on ethan peck's acting, but I love how he always does these subtle things in the vulcan centric episodes. Like in Spock Amok, how he became Gia Sandhu with changes in micro expressions. In this one, it is amazing how he goes from feeling extremely vulcan in his demeanor to just "switching" a vibe and feeling so much more human. His exasperation at his colleagues being rude fucks that think they know more about Vulcan than he does was incredibly well played. Can't wait to see how he unpacks it for them and teaches them to do better -- im sure they will get backlash from other humans, too. He is like the only Vulcan "acting normal" in a room of other Vulcans that don't do it right.

3. I love La'an especially how she looks in askance to the things she does to spock, like "am i doing this right?" sorta how spock looked for his crew on tips about how to behave like himself in "Charades". I need to rewatch it, but it feels like they are all play acting what they think Vulcans should act like, and not quite getting it. People are right, they are playacting Vulcans, because that is what they think is expected of them.

4. I love the depiction of the increased sensory perception, almost like they are tripping. I love these investigations into neurological differences, as a person with a lot of sensory overload/sensory seeking behaviors, I appreciate those being displayed in characters. The neurological differences not being "just culture" is what I loved about aliens being portrayed as aliens. How does culture evolve from the material realities?

5. I do like that Pelia and the rest of the bridge crew didn't expect them to complete tasks faster. But they do. The purpose of them being vulcan was not to be hyperefficient. It was a side effect that is tempting to this workaholic crew, but not the purpose of the transformation. I especially want to see how La'an reacts to this long-term.

6. WTF is up with the lirpa? Why do they have one? How is it required to contain radiation? I mean it looks badass but I need more context to their mission.

7. bonus: scotty is so cute. we are so lucky he got added to main cast. This has nothing to do with the episode. I was just so happy to see him.

8. secret bonus thing: I mentioned this in another post, but the fact that their hair grows/is braided/is different is such an amazing visual language. I like them being willing to play with costuming to tell a story here, instead of just having ears/eyebrows. It is a very novel storytelling technique. It reminds me of the end of "These old scientists" where the cartoon aesthetic is used to depict the feeling of orion drinks. SNW being willing to play with the medium of the message is so unique to modern sci fi.

[isagrimorie]

@tamoline: And that's the best case scenario - given apparently Vulcan techniques to suppress emotions don't work on full humans, it seems logical to suggest that human methods of emotional control wouldn't work on Vulcan emotions. Romulans at least have a lifetime of dealing with them, however unstructured!

Yeah! I want to know how the crew would handle all that raw emotion! Maybe that's what will happen in the episode. I don't know, I think I really am just gonna hold SNW softly and consider it a different timeline from the rest of the prime timeline.

I want to know why SNW is so bad with Vulcans.

A Vulcan without emotional control training is a Romulan.

[croc-odette]

"During the Berman era, Star Trek gradually outgrew this very insular view of the future. It is interesting, for example, to compare the dinners that Pike hosts in Strange New Worlds to those that Sisko (Avery Brooks) hosted on Deep Space Nine. Sisko’s dinners were a genuine melting pot, bringing together Starfleet officers with Bajoran militia members like Kira (Nana Visitor), unaffiliated law enforcement like Odo (René Auberjonois), and civilians like Jake Sisko (Cirroc Lofton).

In contrast, Pike’s dinners feel more insular. There are no truly diverse viewpoints. When Uhura arrives at dinner unsure about whether she wants to remain in Starfleet, that isn’t a perspective that is worth considering. “Still haven’t decided to stay?” Pike rather directly asks at one point, a loaded question from a superior officer that implies there is only one right choice for Uhura. “All Those Who Wander” cannot conceive of life beyond Starfleet. Even Noonien-Singh’s return is assured. [...]

“All Those Who Wander” lacks that introspection. For all that the eponymous monster is an unstoppable killing machine, the Alien franchise is frequently wary of the human organizations that come into contact with the creature. There is a solid argument to be made that Weyland-Yutani is the real villain of Alien and Aliens and that any attempt to homage Alien by reducing it to a simple creature feature misses a large part of the franchise’s appeal.

In contrast, “All Those Who Wander” embraces a weirdly jingoistic and militaristic view of Starfleet as a largely human-led organization that fights aliens in the darkness. “All Those Who Wander” might not be Alien after all; it could just be an unironic Starship Troopers."

-Darren Mooney

[smallblueandloud]

on a much brighter note, i'm thinking about trying to write SNW-era spirk and it's difficult to do, because i cannot fathom a spock and kirk who don't already know that the other is very important to them!

like no wonder the 2009 reboots had to have a character who'd seen the old timeline (much less ambassador spock himself). can you imagine the torture of watching spock and kirk interact without knowing? without being aware of the relationship that would define them and their source materials? like goddamn no wonder you need someone to tell both of them to give the other a chance.

i try to think about SNW-era spirk and my brain immediately wants to either expand on 1x10 a quality of mercy or some sort of soulmate au. but even a soulmate au doesn't scratch the itch, because a soulmate au doesn't even manage to communicate to these characters that they will be very important!! and i can't imagine a spirk without the knowledge of their power.

[green-blooded]

i'm going to die angry about what they did to m'benga

[owedfavors]

today on 'katya gets back on her anti-snw soapbox...'

just thinking about character arcs and the way that... even while I hate una's snw character arc as being poorly handled and also a direct undermining of everything her character promised to be... at least she has a character arc?

because on the other hand, there's marie, whom canon couldn't even be bothered to give enough three dimension to for me to ever have a sense of her values and motivations. she's just canon's pawn to yank around on a chain however the writers need, and I just hate it so much they could have done such amazing things.

and I dare anyone to tell me 'oh but she's not a main character' because I'm sorry... take one look at una in discovery and tell me snw couldn't have done better with marie.

[conflictaverse]

ooc;; imagine if at the end of 2.06, uhura stood up for her friend sam and pulled in the theme of the episode by saying maybe sam needs jim to listen to him, but no we had to make a nod to nostalgia instead of developing the snw characters who never got a chance in tos