#slaver's bay

[thewatcher0nthewall]

Stormborn

[beyondmistland]

Could the Wise Masters still be made to work while laughably incompetent? Like could there be more emphasis on how other cities are aiding Slavers Bay rather then it being implausible that people like the Little Pigeon and the Clanker Lords could really pose a proper threat?

@warsofasoiaf had one solution I really like, which would be to make their incompetence a direct result of Dany setting them against each other by using her knowledge of their culture and history. As for the solution you're proposing, I honestly don't think it passes muster. The other members of the slavers' alliance aren't proper antagonists, just background detail. If you wanted to make the primary antagonist, say, New Ghis, you'd have to rewrite Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen as being dependencies. However, that still wouldn't explain the fact GRRM's (insulting) equivalent of the Mamluks and Janissaries fight like Greek hoplites when Westeros and the Free Cities are firmly in the Late Middle Ages/early Renaissance (sans gunpowder).

Thanks for the question, @cynicalclassicist

[rosaluxembae]

Daenerys' problem in Slaver's Bay isn't that she compromises too much or too little. It's that she has no real social base, no vision for the future, and no plan of how to effect change.

That doesn't change and it can't change unless a) she fully embraces feudalism with all its oppression, which would be very unsatisfing for the reader and also go against her idealism or b) she abandons her legitimist quest for monarchal rule, which is the core of her identity and life mission and would probably be pretty ahistorical

[horizon-verizon]

"My pleasure barge awaits, even now," Xaro Xhoan Daxos called out. "Turn away from this folly, most stubborn of queens. I have flutists who will soothe your troubled soul with sweet music, and a small girl whose tongue will make you sigh and melt." -A Clash of Kings, Daenerys IV

I truly did not remember this. Looks like he consistently fucks little boys because he finds them attractive, as well as the older ones.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#and not only 'what would they do' but how would they handle how actually genuinely difficult it is when trying to prevent mass loss of life #and while being like. 16 years old #because yeah sure fantasy magic solution just unleash the dragons and be super cool and badass except #do they have plans in place for the infrastructure and the crops that could be destroyed. #do they know what the punishment will be for slavers that will prevent further crimes but not inspire further insurrection. #do they know what they'll do with the slaves who don't want freedom. #like there is so much leftover after 'beat the bad guys who are doing bad things' and it's not glamorous or fun#the plot in meereen asks the question what IS peace with people who fundamentally refuse to accept others' humanity #because sometimes coming in with your chosen one status and 3 dragons is not enough to undo the racism and violence intrinsic in the system #sometimes you try to make concessions to prevent bloodshed and end up with the same regime all over again #but then when you choose to burn the system down. you do actually need a plan in place that will keep it from resurfacing #and you will not magically feel no guilt over the death and destruction wrought along the way because you're a human being (via @hylialeia)

the thing about dany youve got to understand to get what meereen and astapor and yunkai and her entire time in slavers bay is about is that she is fundamentally an answer to fantasy fiction that introduces slavery as a plot device but refuses to meaningfully engage with it in any way. what if the the self-inserty magical protagonist saw that the world they lived in was unjust and that people were being sold in markets and that everyone around her told them that was just how the world worked? what would they do? well im not sure but let me tell you what my buddy dany did

[sare11aa11eras]

Daenerys Missandei Irri and Jhiqui!

[Image Description: A full-length drawing of four people, Daenerys Targaryen, Missandei of Naath, and Dany’s two Dothraki handmaidens, Irri and Jhiqui. They are standing progressively farther back from the viewer. Daenerys stands in profile, walking forward, talking to someone. Missandei and Jhiqui have their bodies facing the viewer, Irri is angled slightly to the right side of the drawing. Missandei, Irri, and Jhiqui look at Daenerys. They are standing on a red carpet against a blank background.

Daenerys wears a purple tokar with a gold fringe. She wears her dragon crown, a gold bangle, rings of various materials, a gold vambrace with purple stones, gold earrings with purple stones, and an elaborate necklace with purple stones. From the necklace and the crown dangle long strings of red and black beads. She wears an anklet and leather sandals. A few golden bells can be seen in her hair.

Missandei wears a knee-length light orchid-color dress. It hangs loosely around her. Her dress is trimmed at the hem with purple and blue beads of different lengths. She wears sandals similar to Dany’s. She wears a large V-shaped piece of jewelry similar to a collar around her neck and over her collarbones. It is gold, mostly decorated with purple stones, and a blue butterfly design. Missandei wears earrings with blue butterflies and purple, pink, and yellow stones. She wears a bracelet of alternating pink and yellow stones. Her hair is in braids to pull it away from her face, but is otherwise in an Afro-type style. She holds a tablet and writing utensil in front of her chest. She has an interested expression as she looks up from her writing towards Dany.

Irri wears Dothraki clothes. She wears long trousers, which are blue fabric with a fringed panel of leather along the inside of her leg and groin. She wears leather boots with green, white, and purple painted swirls on them. She wears a dark leather belt around her middle and a belt of gold discs over it. The central gold disc has a green stone. More blue fabric wraps around her chest, either pleated or wrappings. Over this is a painted vest, primarily decorated with blue, green, and white. On her upper arm is an armband with an illustration of a horse galloping in grass. She has leather wrappings on her wrist and opposite upper arm. She wears one visible ring. She wears a leather necklace with a triangular gold pendant and gold triangular earrings. Her hair is in at least three braids, tied off with gold beads. She has bangs. She wears a woven headband of green and blue, with jade stones. Her face is neutral.

Jhiqui also wears Dothraki clothes, although hers do not look practical for riding. Her clothes are primarily fabric of a deep raspberry color. Along the outer side of her trousers is a stripe of leather, fringed at the end, painted with pink and pale purple flowers. On her chest she wears a beaded brooch shaped like a flower, with pink petals and a green “stem”. She wears slippers, in the same material as the rest of her outfit, with a decoration of pink flowers on yellow around the heel. Her vest is laced closed over a green and gold under layer. Her vest is trimmed at the hem with gold discs. Around her middle is a dark leather belt, with a thin belt of gold discs over it. She wears a leather necklace similar to Irri’s, with a circular gold pendant with a garnet stone. Her earrings match this pendant. She wears two rings. Her arm band is gold and garnet. Her hair is worn similarly to Irri’s. She has a bracelet with chips of green jade set in silver on a leather cuff. She has a nose piercing with a gold chain that leads to her earring. She appears to be wearing rouge. She looks mildly interested in whatever is happening. End ID./]

[atopvisenyashill]

i totally get not shipping jonerys but i think there's too much potential for george not to explore. i do think jon is going to be critical of dany’s methods and they’re doomed, but they have a lot in common too? like wanting to impose their beliefs and world view on others, and they can bond over having really bad pr too! i just hope that it’s more interesting than the show, for my own sanity.

I do think there's potential to explore but I just do not see the romantic potential. Their commonalities are not the sort that would make them get along. Jon's bad PR is he's a reclusive dick running off bad advice (from another Targaryen to boot) who won't explain his long term plans to people he doesnt like, sends every single one of his allies away, and is trying to break down long held prejudices in the span of a few months. Dany's bad PR seems similar except on top of "breaking down long held prejudices" she trusts violent, shady ass men at every turn (while Jon just straight up executes Slynt! Do you see Jon misstep wrt Alliser and Bowen? Yes, but he is not sitting here justifying their violence the way Dany justifies men like Daario), compromises in ways that completely undermine the prejudices she's trying to break down, and has now simply accepted that her dragons killing innocent people is an acceptable loss. Dany takes a profit off the selling of slaves and I simply do not believe Jon would react so cavalierly to Dany telling him about how she burned her slave alive to hatch her dragons, especially after whatever shenanigans Melisandre and Stannis are going to be getting up to in TWOW. Not for nothing here, but Jon does not use Ghost as a killing machine; anyone or anything Ghost has killed has been in defense of Jon while Drogon is very much a weapon of war.

Beyond that, Dany's identity is very tied up in the being the last dragon. She's going to be ten times worse in the books about finding a dragonseed in Westeros, especially if Rhaegar found out Elia was killed and married Lyanna, thereby legitimizing Jon above Dany's own claim. She's going to kill Aegon VI and destroy KL, maybe even Casterly Rock and parts of Dorne as well! The thing I think everyone overlooks here though is that she is not getting to Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest! She's going to have wracked up a kill count higher than every other character on page, probably a kill count higher than the Conquerors or the Dance or the Redgrass Field. Regardless of any similarities they have in their backgrounds, what Jon is likely to feel when she lands is horror, and a fair amount of nerves. Do I think he will feel guilt for having a hand in his aunt's death, in ending the line of Targaryens? Yes, absolutely! It doesn't mean his guilt will drive him to side with a woman who lands with a slave army and then sets fire to half the continent.

And to be completely honest, if they do hook up, if she lands and she's lauded as a hero after destroying the city states of Slaver's Bay, after slaughtering the khals of the dothraki, after taking a profit off slavery and engaging in collective and cruel & unusual punishment, if murdering Aegon VI for *checks notes* being lied to about who he is and having a better claim than her but not "earning" his ending, and finds some sort of happiness with Jon, I'm saying that's 100x more misogynistic than what the show did, not to mention nauseatingly imperialist and classist. The reason I am very firm in saying Dany will go dark is because it is my opinion anything less is a betrayal of the themes of non violence, the costs of war, and the punishing of the poor. Like, Robb's murder is a tragedy but the book does not shy away from the harm he does! Dany will not (should not!) be treated any different just because she's a woman; that's like the basis of feminist theory!

[sunnysideaeggs]

If Rhaenyra married Daemon while Laenor was still alive and gave birth to Aegon and viserys, wouldn’t they be bastards too?

And if they are then Daenerys’ line shouldn’t technically inherit the throne. The next legitimate heir would have been Rhaena’s or Baela’s children but nobody knew

exactly anon, the show wanted to avoid the ‘bury your gays’ trope, but accidentally made bastards of all of rhaenyra’s children. or they could be legitimate: my personal pet theory is that the little rowboat that laenor escaped in was unfortunately ambushed by a mercenary ship, courtesy of daemon.

daenerys shouldn’t inherit the throne because the kingdom was rightfully conquered by robert, so she doesn’t have a claim to the IT by succession anymore. the targaryen line was replaced by the baratheon line. if we go by ‘lawful’ inheritance the rightful king is stannis and his heir is shireen, but again, the throne was (kinda) conquered by the lannisters, so now the baratheon line was replaced by the lannister line.

daenerys can win the 7K by conquest, and the ‘rightful heir’ thingy will only be a way to make her reign be accepted more easily. one big thing in asoiaf is that no one has an inherent right to the throne, and often the kingdom is gained by bigger army diplomacy. robert admitted it: he came and won the war, now he’s king. maesters brought up his grandmother rhaelle as a way to give him more legitimacy, but what could they do really? try and get him out of the throne and start another war?

if daenerys wins her conquest war the lords will make many excuses about her being ‘the rightful queen’ because she’s the last targaryen, but the truth is that no one can keep her from taking the throne even if she wasn’t. until another dude pops up and takes the throne from her and arguments about this new person being the rightful heir if we go by this tradition or blah blah come up again.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#my irl oomfie is reading them for the first time and i can’t explain or justify it lol #i like dany the character but whew. george needed to go to sensitivity training (via @visenyaism)

#oh god this is me right now reading it 😭 #“their dark almond-shaped eyes giving no hint of their thoughts. Is it only the plunder they see?” #please george ☠️ (via @wolf-saint)

#it honestly does lessen the quality of the entire series and bogs down Daenerys as a character which is unfair because she doesn’t deserve #that but like :/ come on (via @wlwocprincess)

#its especially bad compared to jon chapters where he sincerely tries to humanize the wildlings too (via @goldcrescent)

revisiting daenerys chapters

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

It's so so disingenuous to claim that Dany should have taken the time to separate xyz privileged persons in Meereen because "not everyone sanctioned the murder of those 163 children 😞". Oh ok. So that very wealthy, very influential man did not personally give the order. Maybe he doesn't even have slaves. But riddle me this: Where did their wealth come from? What are the historical foundations of their political power? In a society that continues to practice oppression (and a society where wealth and status is defined by it), how is it that they continue to hold as much influence and social capital as the "direct evil"? None of this is happening in a vacuum. And like....this is a society where the dehumanization of slaves is systemic. It runs policy and economics. And the people in power obviously know each other and support each other (considering the fact that they can keep wealth and influence!!!). So does it matter if xzy didn't give the order? Does it matter if they were not the ones nailing those kids to the posts? What matters is that they saw oppression, did absolutely nothing in the face of it, and continued to benefit from it. They are not innocent. Evil isn't just related to the guy pulling the trigger. The devil is also the one who's standing in the back, watching, and counting his coffers. And it terrifies me to think about what some of you would be saying in the real world, in the face of oppression. "I cannot be held accountable because I wasn't the one who pulled the trigger"....but you continued to benefit from the privilege afforded to you by the oppressive system AND DID/SAID NOTHING. By turning a blind eye, you have taken the side of the oppressor. So I'm sorry sweetie but you 👏 are 👏 part 👏 of 👏 the 👏 problem 👏 big time!

[daenerysoftarth]

it’s one thing to call the targaryens colonizers and imperialists (true), but it’s a whole nother thing to call daenerys this. she is a teenage girl who overthrew slavery in slaver’s bay and then married a nobleman from one of the cities there. canonically, that’s it. daenerys currently has dreams of ‘reclaiming’ the iron throne, but what that looks like and if she will actually go through with it are up to speculation. she is not a colonizer

[ladyaryawolf]

What show only fans will never understand its true importance:

The house with the red door

Needle

The direwolves

The dragon dreams

The wolf dreams

The birth of Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal

Dany ending the slavery in Essos

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#that’s when u know you’re about to hear the worst Dany take of ur life (via @melrosing)

#dany with her one (1) state-city and no imperial core to speak of being called a colonialist #lmao (via @femrobespierre)

#dany isnt a colonial power shes not extracting the wealth and resources of the places she conquers to a central state #dany is a warlord #and maybe reconstruction #see: the economic dependency on slavery (via @rooses40stepskincareroutine)

#co-signed by ur local indigenous asoiaf blogger #people describe the conquest as colonialism and I immediately am like. oh! you’re stupid! got it! #if the conquest was colonialism every single house in westeros would be speaking some variation of valyrian. and the faith of the seven #and the old gods and the drowned god #would all be put to dragons flame with their practitioners being hunted for sport #westerosi culture would have been brutally stripped and oppressed and only practiced in secret #colonization occupation and conquering are three different things #and while they can overlap they aren’t interchangeable #the only colonial force seen in asoiaf is old valyrian and even that is like #the Romans. and not colonial England. (via @maekarlargenaturals)

I die a little inside every time asoiaf fans don't know what colonialism is or use the word colonialism to describe every single military takeover or conquest that has ever happened.

[rosaluxembae]

I think people interpret any criticism or questioning of Daenerys in Slaver's Bay, either in terms of reader interpretation or authorial narrative, as a kind of lack of revolutionary commitment but it's worth noting that what she's doing isn't revolution; it's Liberal Interventionism. Sure she's genuinely idealistic and acting in good faith unlike real world Liberal Interventionists but at the end of the day she's a foreigner (the Westerosi, Valyrian and Dothraki aspects all give it a slightly different character but regardless) coming in to change things from above. Plus she's ultimately using it to build her own power to take back the Iron Throne. I think the criticism of Daenerys (and especially the "mother" scene) as a white saviour is overblown but not entirely unjustified and to a certain extent even a textual theme.

On the other hand, The Brotherhood Without Banners descending into common banditry (according to Thoros) within months of Dondarrion giving his life to resurrect Catelyn is genuinely a cynical and anti-revolutionary thematic arc.

[horizon-verizon]

What now remains of the once-proud empire of Old Ghis is a paltry thing—a few cities clinging like sores to Slaver’s Bay and another that pretends to be Old Ghis come again. For after the Doom came to Valyria, the cities of Slaver’s Bay were able to throw off the last of the Valyrian shackles, ruling themselves in truth rather than playing at it. And what remained of the Ghiscari swiftly reestablished their trade in slaves—though where once they won them by conquest, now they purchased and bred them.

A World of Ice and Fire, pg. 14

[racefortheironthrone]

could you link your take on the meereenese blot essay? read it a long time back, would love to read another take on it, cant seem to find it on here

Sure thing. The reason you can't find it on tumblr is that it's hosted on Tower of the Hand.