#shireen bolton

[greenerteacups]

oooh please someday tell us what you think of GOT

oh, no, it's my fatal weakness! it's [checks notes] literally just the bare modicum of temptation! okay you got me.

SO. in order to tell what's wrong with game of thrones you kind of have to have read the books, because the books are the reason the show goes off the rails. i actually blame the showrunners relatively little in proportion to GRRM for how bad the show was (which I'm not gonna rehash here because if you're interested in GOT in any capacity you've already seen that horse flogged to death). people debate when GOT "got bad" in terms of writing, but regardless of when you think it dropped off, everyone agrees the quality declined sharply in season 8, and to a certain extent, season 7. these are the seasons that are more or less entirely spun from whole cloth, because season 7 marks the beginning of what will, if we ever see it, be the Winds of Winter storyline. it's the first part that isn't based on a book by George R.R. Martin. it's said that he gave the showrunners plot outlines, but we don't know how detailed they were, or how much the writers diverged from the blueprint — and honestly, considering the cumulative changes made to the story by that point, some stark divergence would have been required. (there's a reason for this. i'll get there in a sec.)

so far, i'm not saying anything all that original. a lot of people recognized how bad the show got as soon as they ran out of Book to adapt. (I think it's kind of weird that they agreed to make a show about an unfinished series in the first place — did GRRM figure that this was his one shot at a really good HBO adaptation, and forego misgivings about his ability to write two full books in however many years it took to adapt? did he think they would wait for him? did he not care that the series would eventually spoil his magnum opus, which he's spent the last three decades of his life writing? perplexing.) but the more interesting question is why the show got bad once it ran out of Book, because in my mind, that's not a given. a lot of great shows depart from the books they were based on. fanfiction does exactly that, all the time! if you have good writers who understand the characters they're working with, departure means a different story, not a worse one. now, the natural reply would be to say that the writers of GOT just aren't good, or at least aren't good at the things that make for great television, and that's why they needed the books as a structure, but I don't think that's true or fair, either. books and television are very different things. the pacing of a book is totally different from the pacing of a television show, and even an episodic book like ASOIAF is going to need a lot of work before it's remotely watchable as a series. bad writers cannot make great series of television, regardless of how good their source material is. sure, they didn't invent the characters of tyrion lannister and daenerys targaryen, but they sure as hell understood story structure well enough to write a damn compelling season of TV about them!

so but then: what gives? i actually do think it's a problem with the books! the show starts out as very faithful to the early books (namely, A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings) to the point that most plotlines are copied beat-for-beat. the story is constructed a little differently, and it's definitely condensed, but the meat is still there. and not surprisingly, the early books in ASOIAF are very tightly written. for how long they are, you wouldn't expect it, but on every page of those books, the plot is racing. you can practically watch george trying to beat the fucking clock. and he does! useful context here is that he originally thought GOT was going to be a trilogy, and so the scope of most threads in the first book or two would have been much smaller. it also helps that the first three books are in some respects self-contained stories. the first book is a mystery, the second and third are espionage and war dramas — and they're kept tight in order to serve those respective plots.

the trouble begins with A Feast for Crows, and arguably A Storm of Swords, because GRRM starts multiplying plotlines and treating the series as a story, rather than each individual book. he also massively underestimated the number of pages it would take him to get through certain plot beats — an assumption whose foundation is unclear, because from a reader's standpoint, there is a fucke tonne of shit in Feast and Dance that's spurious. I'm not talking about Brienne's Riverlands storyline (which I adore thematically but speaking honestly should have been its own novella, not a part of Feast proper). I'm talking about whole chapters where Tyrion is sitting on his ass in the river, just talking to people. (will I eat crow about this if these pay off in hugely satisfying ways in Winds or Dream? oh, totally. my brothers, i will gorge myself on sweet sweet corvid. i will wear a dunce cap in the square, and gleefully, if these turn out to not have been wastes of time. the fact that i am writing this means i am willing to stake a non-negligible amount of pride on the prediction that that will not happen). I'm talking about scenes where the characters stare at each other and talk idly about things that have already happened while the author describes things we already have seen in excruciating detail. i'm talking about threads that, while forgivable in a different novel, are unforgivable in this one, because you are neglecting your main characters and their story. and don't tell me you think that a day-by-day account tyrion's river cruise is necessary to telling his story, because in the count of monte cristo, the main guy disappears for nine years and comes hurtling back into the story as a vengeful aristocrat! and while time jumps like that don't work for everything, they certainly do work if what you're talking about isn't a major story thread!

now put aside whether or not all these meandering, unconcluded threads are enjoyable to read (as, in fairness, they often are!). think about them as if you're a tv showrunner. these bad boys are your worst nightmare. because while you know the author put them in for a reason, you haven't read the conclusion to the arc, so you don't know what that reason is. and even if the author tells you in broad strokes how things are going to end for any particular character (and this is a big "if," because GRRM's whole style is that he lets plots "develop as he goes," so I'm not actually convinced that he does have endings written out for most major characters), that still doesn't help you get them from point A (meandering storyline) to point B (actual conclusion). oh, and by the way, you have under a year to write this full season of television, while GRRM has been thinking about how to end the books for at least 10. all of this means you have to basically call an audible on whether or not certain arcs are going to pay off, and, if they are, whether they make for good television, and hence are worth writing. and you have to do that for every. single. unfinished. story. in the books.

here's an example: in the books, Quentin Martell goes on a quest to marry Daenerys and gain a dragon. many chapters are spent detailing this quest. spoiler alert: he fails, and he gets charbroiled by dragons. GRRM includes this plot to set up the actions of House Martell in Winds, but the problem is that we don't know what House Martell does in Winds, because (see above) the book DNE. So, although we can reliably bet that the showrunners understand (1) Daenerys is coming to Westeros with her 3 fantasy nukes, and (2) at some point they're gonna have to deal with the invasion of frozombies from Canada, that DOESN'T mean they necessarily know exactly what's going to happen to Dorne, or House Martell. i mean, fuck! we don't even know if Martin knows what's going to happen to Dorne or House Martell, because he's said he's the kind of writer who doesn't set shit out beforehand! so for every "Cersei defaults on millions of dragons in loans from the notorious Bank of Nobody Fucks With Us, assumes this will have no repercussions for her reign or Westerosi politics in general" plotline — which might as well have a big glaring THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT stamp on top of the chapter heading — you have Arianne Martell trying to do a coup/parent trap switcheroo with Myrcella, or Euron the Goffick Antichrist, or Faegon Targaryen and JonCon preparing a Blackfyre restoration, or anything else that might pan out — but might not! And while that uncertainty about what's important to the "overall story" might be a realistic way of depicting human beings in a world ruled by chance and not Destiny, it makes for much better reading than viewing, because Game of Thrones as a fantasy television series was based on the first three books, which are much more traditional "there is a plot and main characters and you can generally tell who they are" kind of book. I see Feast and Dance as a kind of soft reboot for the series in this respect, because they recenter the story around a much larger cast and cast a much broader net in terms of which characters "deserve" narrative attention.

but if you're making a season of television, you can't do that, because you've already set up the basic premise and pacing of your story, and you can't suddenly pivot into a long-form tone poem about the horrors of war. so you have to cut something. but what are you gonna cut? bear in mind that you can't just Forget About Dorne, or the Iron Islands, or the Vale, or the North, or pretty much any region of the story, because it's all interconnected, but to fit in everything from the books would require pacing of the sort that no reasonable audience would ever tolerate. and bear in mind that the later books sprout a lot more of these baby-plots that could go somewhere, but also might end up being secondary or tertiary to the "main story," which, at the end of the day, is about dragons and ice zombies and the rot at the heart of the feudal power system glorified in classical fantasy. that's the story that you as the showrunner absolutely must give them an end to, and that's the story that should be your priority 1.

so you do a hack and slash job, and you mortar over whatever you cut out with storylines that you cook up yourself, but you can't go too far afield, because you still need all the characters more or less in place for the final showdown. so you pinch here and push credulity there, and you do your best to put the characters in more or less the same place they would have been if you kept the original, but on a shorter timeframe. and is it as good as the first seasons? of course not! because the material that you have is not suited to TV like the first seasons are. and not only that, but you are now working with source material that is actively fighting your attempt to constrain a linear and well-paced narrative on it. the text that you're working with changed structure when you weren't looking, and now you have to find some way to shanghai this new sprawling behemoth of a Thing into a television show. oh, and by the way, don't think that the (living) author of the source material will be any help with this, because even though he's got years of experience working in television writing, he doesn't actually know how all of these threads will tie together, which is possibly the reason that the next book has taken over 8 years (now 13 and counting) to write. oh and also, your showrunners are sick of this (in fairness, very difficult) job and they want to go write for star wars instead, so they've refused the extra time the studio offered them for pre-production and pushed through a bunch of first-draft scripts, creating a crunch culture of the type that spawns entirely avoidable mistakes, like, say, some poor set designer leaving a starbucks cup in frame.

anyway, that's what I think went wrong with game of thrones.

[stannis-the-freaking-mannis]

some asoiaf character bracelets ive been making :)

[depvotee]

On the Iphigenia wikipedia article

im cackling

[catofoldstones]

Ohhh my god Davos is not going to kill Stannis after he finds out that Stannis burned Shireen. One, Davos is going to be very, very far away when that happens. Two, Davos is not that kind of a character. He feels extremely indebted to stannis for raising him from a common sailor to a noble lord in a systemically oppressive society. Davos is busy feeling too beholden and obligated to Stannis for supposedly up jumping him out of the kindness of his heart that he doesn’t even realise that stannis is one of the strongest perpetrators of that systemic oppression. Davos barely blamed stannis for killing four of his sons, I don’t think he’s going to kill stannis for Shireen. Davos is a simple-minded, kind ass, unknowingly hypocritical fool and we love him for that in this house. Killing Stannis is very ooc for Davos for various reasons sorry.

[selfproclaimedunicorn]

21. Have you ever deleted an entire scene after spending hours laboring over it? If so, why?

If nobody got me, I know the most beloved mutuals got me, lmao

Not in SOTF, but I feel like I have to have done this with some of my unpublished stuff.

Surprisingly little has gotten left on the cutting room floor (so to speak) with this one, actually. There were some scenes that had initial passes I simply didn't like, but they got cut relatively early in the drafting process/never finished & rewritten without enough fuss for me to really remember. There's also been small section of scenes that got cut just to help the flow, but generally speaking, the stuff that took hours almost always stays.

Truthfully, if anything "major" gets cut, it's likely that happens before it even gets put down. Either because it was idea building, or because it was a silly little imagined scene that I entertained myself with to fill time that I always knew would be "off screen" or I realized wouldn't fit long before the place it would have needed to go

[laurellerual]

Top five Winds of Winter must haves?

Arya reclaiming her identity at the Uncloaking of Uthero. 🎭

Bran getting out of that cave. 🍁

Jon Snow resurrecting and getting a new Bloodravenish look. ❄️

Dany makes it to Westeros. 🔥

Stannis burning Shireen at the Wall trying to stop the Others but failing. 🧊

Bonus: die Bolton die! 🩸

[leupagus]

A Gale of Wolves

Chapters: 24 out of 24 Wordcount: 71,276 Warnings: Author Chose Not To Warn Rating: Teen and Up Pairings: Sansa/Winterfell, Dany/Democracy, Jon/Doing The Right Thing Even Though He Makes The D: Face About It, Stannis/That Stick Up His Butt, Shireen/A Goddamn Break, Tommen/Competent Ruling, Myrcella/Surviving, Arianne/Existing, Brienne/VENGEANCE!, Tyrion/Wine/Complaining, Boltons/Beheading, Rickon/Shenanigans, Selyse/Backflipping Out Of This Whole Mess, Melisandre/The New Mess Selyse Is Backflipping Into, Ghost/Begging Shamelessly, Davos/Being Right, Drogon/Pyramids

x

[goodqueenaly]

How do you think Melisandre will react when she discovers that Stannis isn't actually Azor Ahai reborn? What about the Queen's Men?

Perhaps the better question to ask - although it might amount to about the same thing - is what Melisandre and the Queen’s men (not to mention Selyse herself, and Shireen) will do as TWOW opens - namely, in light of both the bombshell news (or purported news) from the pink letter that Stannis is (again, supposedly) dead, as well as the assassination of Jon. If, as Ramsay’s letter to Jon so bluntly asserted, Ramsay had slain Stannis after seven days of battle, then the hopes of both Melisandre and the Queen’s men might seem, perhaps to use an apt turn of phrase, snuffed out: Stannis obviously could not be the hero chosen by R’hllor to save the world if he was already dead, and at the hands of so mundane and temporal an enemy as Roose Bolton’s bastard son. That Stannis isn’t in fact dead, as I very much believe is the case, does not really matter; so far as anyone at the Wall knows, the would-be apocalyptic champion of the Lord of Light is currently lying dead in the snows around Winterfell.

Melisandre, in her sole chapter, had already faced the trouble of vague portentous guidance on Stannis as Azor Ahai. More to the point, Melisandre had also already received at least some indication via her fiery visions that the identity of Azor Ahai was indisputably linked to Jon Snow. Consequently, I think she may realize or believe she now understands, as TWOW opens, that she had been focusing on the wrong person as Azor Ahai. Stannis was clearly not “the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire”, as she put it to Davos, since the apocalypse was still nigh; clearly, what R’hllor was trying to tell her was that the person to look for was Jon. Now, the fact that Jon had also recently been killed may not seem as big a stumbling block to Melisandre as it might objectively, in terms of the identity of a universal savior; Melisandre may not have ever brought anyone back from the dead (so far as we know), but as Thoros and Moqorro demonstrate, the ability of R’hllor’s priests (and presumably priestesses) to defy even death in the name of their god is a substantial power indeed. I have a feeling Melisandre is going to move quickly to return Jon to the land of the living via her fire magic (with the unconscious bonus, perhaps, of having Jon’s “soul” still be preserved in his wolf in the interim).

As far as the queen’s men go, the death of Stannis may seem more like a political tragedy than a cosmic one. The true devotion of the queen’s men to R’hllor is a mixed bag: some truly converts to the new religion (like young Devan Seaworth), some devoted only for the cruelty the exercise of that religion allows (like Clayton Suggs), and some converts only in name (like the late Alester Florent). However, whether or not any given pro-Stannis aristocrat at the Wall feels a sense of cosmological devastation at the news of Stannis’ (supposed) death, all of them would know that their political prospects were now far from certain. In the patriarchal, misogynistic world of Westerosi politics generally, a preteen girl might have a very hard time asserting herself as queen in her own right; as a result, the queen’s men at the Wall might be pretty uncertain about what to do without the strong male warrior-king figure of Stannis behind whom they could rally.

And of course, that’s without the immediate problems at the Wall overtaking them all as well. Jon’s assassination was the acme of a chaotic day at the Wall: not only had Jon dropped his bombshell news regarding the letter from Ramsay, his planned march on Winterfell, and the planned mission to Hardhome, but Ser Patrek had taken the opportunity to challenge Wun Wun the giant to seize Val - which ended about as much as anyone might have expected. With Jon murdered out in the open, the Wall is going to be, to put it bluntly, a mess: anti-Jon conspirators with his blood quite literally still on their hands, pro-Jon brothers potentially retaliating against those conspirators, queen’s men rushing about to rescue and/or avenge Ser Patrek from Wun Wun, free folk realizing that their pseudo-leader at the Wall is now dead. Any questions of Stannis’ death, and the apparent failure of him to be Azor Ahai, may be subsumed in something like a miniature civil war breaking out at the Wall, and them being caught in it.

[agentrouka-blog]

do you think the meereenese blot guy is right when he says that jon will come back darker and might not care about civilians deaths?

The Meereenese Blot Essays are excellent reads and I recommend them so much!

I don't think that what you describe is necessarily the conclusion/prediction presented in the final Jon essay. It's more of a very potential path that heavily depends on how Jon will react to several potential variables (the situation at the Wall, Melisandre's influence).

My personal take is that GRRM will probably not veer too far into that direction.

The essays give three factors that might influence a dark turn: 1) conditions at the Wall becoming catastrophic, 2) a turn toward prophecy, 3) Ghost's influence.

We can't yet know how 1) will turn out, but Jon has been investing in institutional structures outside his own person even if the wildlings have sworn their oaths to his person. They are manning castles together, training people together. The assassins do not represent a known large mutinous faction that Jon has been oppressing all this time. Like with Caesar, the "liberators" may soon discover their act to be unwelcome by the "masses". The destructive chaos may not be as huge as the essay anticipates. We're likely to see a mirror to Meereen in Dany's absence.

Regarding 3), Ghost specifically is a remarkably chill direwolf with a pronounced solitary streak and a gentleness with various humans. The human-eating exploits of Summer and Nymeria specifically mirror their human counterparts rather than negatively influencing them. The same went for Grey Wind. Ghost represents escapism rather than abuse of power but probably also a strong reminder of his wolf and human families.

Regarding 2), Jon already knows that Melisandre has magical and prophetic powers (Mance's glamor, the murdered rangers), so the mere fact of the correct prediction of his assassination attempt will not suddenly make him trust her. He already took steps based on trusting her and learned to question the reliability of her predictions/interpretations of her visions.

Jon's ethical troubles have always been tied to concepts of identity, rather than destiny. Always "Who am I, who do I want to be", rather than "this is a goal I must inevitably achieve, no matter the cost". So given his always ambivalent relationship with Melisandre and Stannis, I don't suddenly see him outsourcing his ethical grounding to a prophecy.

He'll more probably be torn between harmful personal desires (impulsive wrath, the peace of freedom as a wolf) and competing frames of identity (man of the Night's Watch, a Stark, a human) and through those pick a path forward that will likely culminate in leaving the Watch and fully engaging in Northern politics against the Boltons who threaten the Watch and the North and the wildlings combined.

None of those options tie him to Azor Ahai or to a sudden disregard for innocent human life. That one is (to me) likely to remain Stannis's story, all the way up to the senseless burning of Shireen, which will end the influence of that storyline in the North for the foreseeable future and release its focus over towards what the Essosi slaves see in Daenerys.

So that would be my opinion. 😊

[greenbloods]

Literally every single thing we know has to happen in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring, plus a bunch of things that will probably happen:

(according to me); post below cut

In the East

In the Battle of Blood at Meereen, Dany's forces against the Ghiscari armies will prevail in a costly victory

most likely: Barristan will die in the Battle for Meereen, though Daenerys' forces will prevail; most likely, Victarion's Dragonbinder will be blown, causing confusion and a false charge in Barristan's forces, leading to his death, while the blowing of Dragonbinder will have unexpected consequences for Victarion

I have no idea with Dany tbh. All I know is that she has to fulfill Quaithe's prophecy and the House of the Undying prophecies somehow and come to Westeros, and probably fight in the War for the Dawn. (maybe kill Khal Jhaqo, fly to Vae Dothrak to fulfill the House of the Undying Visions and "to reach the west you must go east", fly to Asshai to "pass beneath the shadow", fly to Meereen and Volantis and Pentos and return to Westoros, maybe even with Victarion's ships, and meet Maester Marwyn in Meereen?? who even knows)

Dany will find out what Quaithe's deal was

the Tattered Prince will get somehow get his price of Pentos

Lynesse Hightower being the consort of a Triarch of Lys will become relevant; perhaps: she uses her influence in Lysene politics to cause Lys to side with Dany (parallel: Johanna Swann in the Dance of the Dragons)

the ailing old Sealord of Braavos will die, and Tormo Fregar will become the new Sealord as Arya predicts, and will come out in support of Dany

In the North

the Night's Watch will disintegrate into chaos in the aftermath of Jon's death, similar to the Republic after Caesar's death

the corpses in the cellars of Castle Black will rise

the free folk will sail to Hardhome

the Wall will fall at least in part, and the War for the Dawn will finally begin with the crossing of the Others

Jon will be resurrected from warging into Ghost (probably only after the Wall falls); will be resurrected either by Melisandre (likely) or Lady Stoneheart (less likely)

Jon will find out that he is the heir to Robb's will

Jon will find out the truth about his parentage

Howland Reed will finally appear on-page

the Others will seize the freefolk at Hardhome and march upon the Wall, as the freefolk and Night's Watch (remnants) rally Stannis & the Northern lords to beat back the Others' forces. as the Wall crumbles and the North is consumed by the forces of the undead

Davos will find Rickon in Skagos

Stannis will defeat the Boltons in the Battle on the Ice, meet with then take up the Northern alliance to beat back the Others; he will die

Hodor's name origin will be revealed as he "holds the door"

Jojen and Hodor and Meera and Summer will die ("One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds...")

Shireen's greyscale will infect others, perhaps spread by Patchface biting ("I have seen that one with his lips dripping with blood"), waking the stone dragon of grey plague at the Wall, fulfilling Melisandre's and Patchface's prophecies

Bran will leave the cave to join the war against the Others

Robb's crown will come back into importance, probably given to Jon by Lady Stoneheart [???]

the Starks will reunite

the heart of winter in the far North will be explained and perhaps will even be explored

the "dragons can't go beyond the Wall" Chekhov's gun (Queen Alysanne and Silverwing) will fire and the dragons will go north ("I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one.")

(In the Riverlands)

Arya will leave the Faceless Men with Needle & reunite with Nymeria in the Riverlands

Jaime will escape his Lady Stoneheart execution (somehow)

Blackfish will continue to resist Lannister rule as an outlaw, and might reunite with Lady Stoneheart

Lady Stoneheart will die a final death

Walder Frey will die and his children will squabble for succession (Frey civil war, possibly Red Wedding 2.0)

In the South

Myranda Royce's knowledge of 'Alayne's' true identity will become important; she will tell her father Nestor Royce that Alayne is Sansa, and Nestor's supposed siding with Littlefinger against the other Valelords will be used for Littlefinger's downfall

Sansa will play the game of thrones and gain the support of the Valelords, outplaying and killing Littlefinger ("and later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow")

Young Griff + Joncon will win Storm's End and the Stormlands "by guile" (probably involving Edric Storm)

Young Griff will form an alliance with Dorne by marrying Arianne (who wants to be queen), and will march on King's Landing

Quentyn's death will affect Dorne; most likely, Doran will hear of it and refuse to ally with Daenerys, siding instead with Young Griff

(In Oldtown)

Euron will unleash 'krakens from the deep' in the Battle of Blood off Oldtown and destroy the Reachman fleet

Euron's magic will be resisted by Hightower sorcery and by Alleras' glass candle

[??] Sam's warhorn will be revealed as Joramun's Horn, and Euron will blow it, triggering the fall of the Wall

the dragonlore that the Faceless Men stole in the AFFC Prologue will be used, either by Euron or by the Faceless Men themselves

Gilly and Dalla's babe will find a home, either in Oldtown or at Horn Hill

Sam will go back North to fight for the war for the dawn (Marwyn: "A time will come when you'll be needed on the Wall")

(In King's Landing)

Tommen will die, and Myrcella too ("gold will be their shrouds")

Joncon, hearing the bells of King's Landing, will go mad and attack wildly, setting off the wildfire caches under the city

Jaime will choke Cersei to death (valonqar prophecy), dying together ("we were born together and will die together")

the words of House Dayne will be revealed

the true identity of Azor Ahai's sword Lightbringer will be possibly revealed (probably Dawn)

the Sword of the Morning will be wielded in battle against the Others in the War for the Dawn

Darkstar's actual motives as part of the Dornish intrigue will be revealed

the reason for Ashara's death will be revealed

Tyrion will join with Daenerys and bring fire and blood to Westeros, confronting his siblings one last time before they die

Edric Storm and Gendry will return to the narrative

Loras will reappear, with his injuries likely recovered or non-existent

Illyrio and Varys' full plot and their full relation to each other will be revealed to us

Joncon, hearing the bells of King's Landing, will go mad and attack wildly, setting off the wildfire caches under the city set by Aerys' orders seventeen years ago; King's Landing will burn

[windriverdelta]

Jon Snow - King in the North?

One of the open questions of TWOW/ADOS is whether Jon Snow will ever become King in the North, as in Game of Thrones and in Robb's will. Now the KitN point in the show was extremely sloppily done - Jon didn't really accomplish anything with it, and some people suspect that the show simply gave Jon Stannis Baratheon's book function - and unlike "Stannis burns Shireen" or "Bran becomes king" it's not one of the moments-from-the book we know of, but given the show's tendency to write "moments" without a solid foundation just because they occur in the future books it's not ruled out. There are also some references by Mormont's raven and elsewhere that compare Jon to a king.

That said, I find it improbable. The first big problem is Stannis Baratheon. He's never going to abide a new King in the North, as he makes clear to Catelyn and Davos in ACOK. Jon Snow is effectively a Stannis supporter in ADWD, as we can see from e.g the way he calls him "the king" without qualifiers to Alys Karstark and tries to warn him about Arnolf Karstark. I doubt that he'd try to usurp Stannis. And crucially, Stannis has a lot of plot armour/guaranteed survival going in to TWOW/ADOS - unlike the show, Shireen has been left at the Wall and there is no way she could reach Stannis at Winterfell before his army starves to death, so we know he has to survive. And while we've seen with the Edric Storm affair in ASOS that Stannis is prepared to sacrifice a child to stop the Long Night, until the Long Night is actually underway I doubt that he'll give his only child to stop it. Lastly, Stannis being Azor Ahai is one of the lies Daenerys must slay, not the Boltons or Jon. Him dying before ADOS is an exceedingly unlikely prospect.

Second, there are a lot of political obstacles to Jon Snow becoming King in the North. While Robb's will almost certainly legitimized him, there is no evidence that a written copy of the will survived the Red Wedding and the Grand Northern Conspiracy is not a thing. All what he'd have is Maege Mormont's and Galbart Glover's word, since all other witnesses are trapped south of the Neck/in Iron Throne ally custody - and oh yeah, they are with Howland Reed who knows that Jon is not Ned's son. Also, the will assumed that Bran and Rickon were dead and Sansa in the power of the Lannisters; they aren't, and this is going to come out in TWOW between Davos' mission and Bran revealing himself in the crofters' village, complicating Northern politics as all these candidates have advantages and disadvantages over Jon. It's also unclear whether Northern independence is actually strongly supported in the North after the Red Wedding - we don't have much evidence of patriotic fervour in ACOK and ASOS, let alone in the history of the North during the Targaryen dynasty, and the current movers-and-shakers in the North mostly weren't around for the war council in Riverrun where Robb's acclamation took place. Their attitudes might be very negotiable. And as for the notion of Jon being acclaimed like in the show after defeating the Boltons - that's extremely unlikely in the books for sundry logistical and thematic reasons.

Speaking of, I think it's somewhat thematically unsound for a story where per GRRM the "true conflict is north of the Wall" and where Osha tells Bran that Robb is marching in the wrong direction, to suddenly champion the cause of Northern independence. Stannis, not Robb, is still alive at the end of ASOS. A coalition between wildlings, Starks, Team Stannis and small-o others - later joined by Daenerys and Tyrion as future dragonriders - is way more likely in my opinion.*

Vis-a-vis Jon Snow, there is also the question of how KitN fits into his character arc. He has already declined Stannis' offer of Winterfell in ASOS, making a tilt in TWOW might be repetitive. His story in TWOW is likely going to head to a resurrection, the Stark Family Reunion, the R+L=J reveal and (eta: in ADOS - see conversation with @jackoshadows) becoming a dragonrider (two of them must be Targaryens), probably also an identity crisis - KitN seems more like a detour, especially as the timeline does not leave much time for anything else. Abandoning the fight against the Others for political games in the North only to return to fighting the Others would be questionable storytelling.

Credit to @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly @poorquentyn @turtle-paced for inspiration/citations.

*Or a very dark possibility: Northern separatists try to force Jon's (or someone else's) accession by fighting with Stannis ... only to be taken in the rear by the Others when the Horn of Joramun brings the Wall down and their attempt to end in catastrophe as their armies are smashed between Others and pro-Stannis troops. The fiefs of the most pro-independence Northerners we've seen - Lyanna Mormont (OK, she's way down the Mormont succession order), Greatjon Umber and Robett Glover - are also the closest to the Wall, discounting the mountain clans, and thus closest to the "firing line". That might be a set-up to such a tragedy.

[rhaenyrastark]

ships i like from got and hotd

i am very much a multi-shipper when it comes to the universe GRRM has written, i do have to say however there is one ship that i really dislike and will NEVER read; Jonerys (Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen), i always stop reading when this ship is mentioned in fanfiction and i will unfollow blogs that ship it. i ship people that i think would be good or interesting together (or if i just like both characters and would find them cute together)

got (game of thrones)

Jon Snow/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Ygritte

Samwell Tarly/Gilly

Khal Drogo/Daenerys Targaryen (i know this one is a bit controversial but i found them so cute by the end)

Sansa Stark/Tyrion Lannister

Jorah Mormont/Daenerys Targaryen (more tv show than the books)

Margaery Tyrell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Ellaria Sand (just make Ellaria her season 4 characterisation or book ver because she is so weird in the tv show after s4)

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark/Ellaria Sand (in a triangle type polyamorous relationship, i dislike reading v-shaped relationships)

Bran Stark/Meera Reed

Rickon Stark/Shireen Baratheon

Gendry Waters/Arya Stark

Sandor Clegane/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Arya Stark

Jon Snow/Robb Stark

Myranda/Ramsay Bolton (i love evil people with evil people that enable them to do more evil)

Trystane Martell/Myrcella Baratheon

Tormund Giantsbane/Brienne of Tarth

Talisa Maegyr/Robb Stark (i love Talisa, i thought their love story was such a cute thing from the show)

Arya Stark/Tywin Lannister (give me grown up version of Arya with Tywin, especially if they make the harrenhal scenes canon, *chef's kiss*)

Arya Stark/Jaqen H'ghar

Missandei/Grey Worm

Missandei/Daenerys Targaryen

Jaime Lannister/Cersei Lannister (toxic but they died in each others arms, tv show only)

Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth

Mirri Maz Duur/Revenge (Mirri deserved her revenge even if it inconvenienced Dany a bit)

Catelyn Tully/Ned Stark

Elia Martell/Rhaegar Targaryen/Lyanna Stark (i can only get behind Rhaegar/Lyanna if Elia is there with them and they all survive, otherwise its just shipping 2 people that started a rebellion because they didn't tell anyone what they were doing or a guy who stole and raped a women. Elia basically deserved better)

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Sansa Stark

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Arya Stark

Robb Stark/Roslin Frey

Loras Tyrell/Renly Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon/Davos Seaworth

Sansa Stark/Theon Greyjoy

hotd (house of the dragon)

DAEMON TARGARYEN/RHAENYRA TARGARYEN (i will ship this until the day i die)

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Rhaenyra Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Harwin Strong/Daemon Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

BASICALLY IF YOU COULDN'T TELL FROM THE ABSOLUTE LIST ABOVE I SHIP THE 5 (Rhaenyra, Laena, Daemon, Laenor, Harwin) IN ANY COMBINATION POSSIBLE BUT I CAN'T THINK OF ANY MORE COMBINATIONS RIGHT NOW

Aegon II Targaryen/Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen

Aemond Targaryen/Helaena Targaryen

Baela Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Jacaerys Targaryen/Cregan Stark/Baela Targaryen (again in a triangle not a v)

Baela Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Aegon III Targaryen/Daenaera Velaryon

Aemond Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon (only in very specific circumstances; (1) when Aemond turns to team Black/doesn't fight for team Green, (2) when Rhaenyra is guaranteed to become Queen in the fic or (3) non-canon compliant e.g. no killing Lucerys, etc.)

Alicent Hightower/Criston Cole (they deserve each other, both sexually repressed and doing things for 'duty' sake)

Corlys Velaryon/Rhaenys Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Joffrey Lonmouth

Laenor Velaryon/Qarl Correy

[adarkandmagicalforest]

ais thought process is very fun

[atopvisenyashill]

NOW HOW ABOUT HOW STANNIS CAN BEAT RAMSAY BOLTON (shireen lives edition) WHAT ABOUT THAT PROMPT

[catofoldstones]

The thing about arya fans' argument that arya comes before sansa in the line of succession because robb disinherited her because of her forced marriage is the underlying misogyny and victim blaming of it, and their assumption that grrm thinks the same. We don't have jon [you know the actual person robb chose over sansa, and i think its time we start talking that the will specifically was about sansa and jon and that shit means something narratively] asserting that winterfell belongs to sansa despite everything and him not falling to the bait of stannis calling her a lannister, to just assume that according to grrm what robb did was OK. If people actually think grrm wants to show robb was right and girls truly are not important and thus his disinheritance of his sister's rights will be upheld, then they need their heads checked. Its not like he showed us that jaehaerys's sexism was what led to death of the dragons and downfall of targaryens even though grrm considers him a good ruler. Ultimately, catelyn will be validated when brienne saves either sansa or arya with oathkeeper and sansa will become lady of winterfell/qitn DESPITE robb's will. He [and arya fans] can suck it.

Hi soulmate anon,

Before we start, I have to let you know that one our previous posts was screenshotted and circulated in the arya stans circles because “we’re spreading our agenda on a neutral public platform” or something along those lines. Idk if you’ve seen that or not but I had to let you know before we go off kicking another hornet’s nest lol.

Anyway, that out of the way, to the Arya stans who are so hellbent upon removing Sansa from the Stark succession, Robb declared Jon as his heir, pushing Sansa further down the line (not disinheriting her jesus fuck) because through her Tyrion may lay claim to Winterfell, landing it in the hands of the Lannisters, exactly what Robb and Cat are trying to prevent. Robb didn’t “disinherit” Arya because he thought she was dead. Hope that helps.

WAIT!

the will being specifically about Jon and Sansa and that we need to start thinking about that narratively

SCREAM

Okay, I have now moved on (I have not). Though please feel free to talk about this more, I wanna know more. Guess I’ll now have to add jonsa tag to this answer hehe :P

I mean Robb did come from a place of “authority over the female members of his family” here with the will and that’s exactly the kind of thing we have to side eye. Taking it at face value and uncritically thinking about it is not a fair way to engage with the text I feel. You’re right when Jon himself reiterates Sansa’s claim over Winterfell, we are supposed to think twice whether Robb’s action was equitable or not. Stannis calls Sansa “Lady Lannister” to coax Jon into staking a claim over Winterfell so that Stannis gets a good reason to march to Winterfell and attack the Boltons (which he will anyway, but Jon’s, a member of the Stark family, support would mean political backing and reason). If we fall in the trap that Stannis thinks Sansa is now a Lannister, and therefore she is now a Lannister with no claim to Winterfell, then we’ve lost the plot and are coming from the same misogynistic hypocrisy (he wants Shireen on the throne if he dies but calls Sansa a Lannister, how does that work old man?) that destroys Westeros (your Jaehaerys example). And are no different from a crusty medieval era middle aged man btw.

It’s so fucking funny when the readers start emulating the same sexism that the author wants them to critique, and then start calling themselves feminists because they’re supporting a woman’s rights! Which woman’s rights besties? Because the one that clearly has them, you’re actively against her staking her claim. Wait till they read the books with their eyes open and realise that Arya comes at the end of the heirs to winterfell list, despite Sansa getting “disinherited” lmao. And I love Robb, he’s just a boy trying to do his best, but he truly made mistakes, especially with not listening to Catelyn. We also cannot deny the undercurrent of misogyny and chauvinism that Robb demonstrated with the will. Re Sansa’s rights and Jon’s decision to be with the Nights Watch. I will patiently wait for Catelyn to be validated and Sansa to be the Lady/QiTN not only because that subverts reader’s expectations and Westerosi patriarchal standards but because I want to see Sansa antis have a grand old meltdown.