#ser gregor clegane

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Prince Rhaegar as a character often gets some deserved criticism - and a lot of underserved hate. And one of the things that I think he unfairly gets blamed for is Elia Martell's tragedy. Elia's death is one of the primary objections people have towards Rhaegar and Lyanna being depicted as a romance, with readers believing that if they were just tragic lovers, then that diminishes Elia's own tragedy.

I...disagree. It is understandable (and honestly right) that readers would rally behind Elia. Not only was she horribly brutalized and murdered, but her children suffered absolutely terrible fates as well.

However, in trying to center Rhaegar and Lyanna's doomed dalliance in this, a lot of readers are missing the answer that has been already provided to us within the narrative. Not only that, but this line of thinking also ignores the key context in which Elia's senseless murder is portrayed.

As far as the text goes, Elia’s death is laid squarely at the feet of Tywin Lannister and his men, Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch. It's House Lannister's burden to bear.

Doran for one, Elia's brother, directly blames Tywin Lannister:

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.”

The Princess in the Tower, AFFC

Even Oberyn agrees:

“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer’s show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that.” He smiled. “An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?”

Tyrion IV, ASOS

“Is that the game we are playing?” Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. “There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch.” “How sad for him,” said the Red Viper. “And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?” “I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.” “What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?” Oberyn smiled coldly. “Your father gave the commands, yes?” “No.” He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should. The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. “Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister’s children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks.”

Tyrion IX, ASOS

“Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne,” the Red Viper hissed. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children…“I came to hear you confess.”

Tyrion X, ASOS

Varys and Tyrion both understand that House Martell (but more specifically Doran) hates the Lannisters.

“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” “All this is obvious,” said Tyrion. “The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.” “My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition … and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black.” “A council seat is not to be despised,” Varys admitted, “yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister’s murder?” “Why forget?” Tyrion smiled. “I’ve promised to deliver his sister’s killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure.” Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a … certain name … when they came for her.” “Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands. “This secret is your lord father’s sworn man.” “My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog.” Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed …” “Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end.” “Robert was not at King’s Landing.” “Neither was Doran Martell.”

Tyrion IV, ACOK

Really, all the nobles know where to look at when assigning blame for Elia's murder. Tywin.

“Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation,” Lord Tywin said calmly, “not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, “But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?” None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.

Tywin, for the most part, quite shamelessly tries to disassociate himself from his own moral failings; this is nothing new, because he follows this same MO with squarely blaming the Freys for the Red Wedding even though he played an integral part in planning for it.

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape … even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of … two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?” “I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.” “Ser Amory Lorch is dead,” Tyrion said flatly. “Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell.” “You may call that justice …” “It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

Tywin tries to alleviate himself of any responsibility by blaming his men, but the narrative actively calls bullshit on this (through Tywin's own son no less).

So the narrative shows through multiple POVs that Elia's murder is contextualized exclusively as a failing on Tywin Lannister and his men; not only was it a moral failing, but Tyrion also questions if it was politically necessary in the first place. It's also important to note that ASOS is when we really dive into the matter of Elia and her children (mostly through Oberyn), but we also have to remember that this is the same book as the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding, another one of Tywin's senseless massacres that he tries to postulate as politically necessary.

So, we have agreed that the blame and context for Elia's (and her children's) murder is presented through the lens of Tywin as an immoral politician who often makes politically unnecessary moves. But then we ask ourselves, can the responsibility of this tragedy be extended? Well, yes it can. And it has been in the text.

Ser Barristan extends this tragedy beyond Tywin and his men

...to King Robert.

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Ned Stark does as well.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Eddard II, AGOT

And so does Tywin, who uses Robert's tacit approval as justification for this senseless act.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

So if we can't extend the blame to Rhaegar, because the narrative doesn't do so either, what can we hold him responsible for? Let's take a step back and look at Rhaegar's culpability in this whole thing.

Was Rhaegar (and Lyanna) responsible for starting the war that would eventually lead to Elia's murder?

No. GRRM doesn't think so. The war actually started when King Aerys murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, a bunch of other northern nobles, and then called for the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lord of Storm's End) and Ned Stark (the new Lord of Winterfell). Aerys broke the feudal contract, and so Jon Arryn declared war.

I don't think I would have stayed loyal to the Mad King. Do I think they were justified? Yes, and no. [...] There was no doubt that the Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and he was abusing his power. And Westeros has no Magna Carta or anything like that. There was no way to handle this within the rule of law. But was what they do justified? Especially when you consider that it was triggered by a personal grievance. The execution of Ned's father and brother was really a thing that radicalized Ned and put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and didn't like the fact that he'd lost his girlfriend. So you know, the personal informs the political.

source

Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance was merely the spark - it led to a misunderstanding that caused Brandon Stark to ride to Kingslanding. What really caused the war was Aerys' Targaryens subsequent actions as the king. So if we want to blame someone for causing the chain of events that led to Elia's death as well as her children's, the author himself says to blame Aerys; even though I don't think this is right either because we once again stray from the necessary (and sole) context of Elia's murder - Tywin's bloody hands.

Fine. Rhaegar was not responsible for the war. But surely he is responsible for leaving Elia in King's Landing, right in the clutches of Mad King Aerys. Well, this again, is not true. As far as Rhaegar knew, Elia was in Dragonstone with Aegon and Rhaenys where he left them.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

At some point, Elia was called to King's Landing. And it was Aerys who kept her hostage there as insurance against possible Dornish betrayal (remember, he was paranoid).

Side Note: Aerys kept another important political hostage in King's Landing along with Elia - Jaime Lannister; this is to deter anyone from trying to blame Jaime for doing nothing. He was a teenager and a hostage himself!

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Jaime V, ASOS

Ok, fine. So Rhaegar did not abandon her with Aerys then run off to Lyanna. But he should have done something when he came back, right? Why didn't he leave more Kings Guard with Elia and the children?

Well....this is a war. The knights of the KG are important assets on the battle field. Kings Landing, at the time, was not the most dangerous location. The KG were better off at the Trident, as a victory there would protect those who were left behind in KL.

And it's not that Rhaegar didn't do anything. Beyond going off to lead the battle himself, he tried to make moves that would help those who were back in KL (Elia and the children included).

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

Jaime V ASOS

And Jaime's POV once again shows us that Rhaegar banked on victory at the Trident, and was fully expecting to come back to KL and amend the fraught political situation.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.” Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.” Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.” “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Jaime I, AFFC

So Rhaegar wasn't leaving with no care about what happened back in King's Landing. We don't know what he wanted to do with Aerys, Elia, Lyanna, and the aftermath of the war because he died at the Trident. But we do know that he, at the very least, was planning to do something.

So we can't blame Rhaegar (and Lyanna) for starting the war and we can't blame him either for abandoning Elia in King's Landing with no care about what happens next. So, again, what can we blame him for?

“It's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.”

SSM, 09/11/1999

GRRM states that Dorne was angry about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. What is this treatment, though?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

Eddard XV, AGOT

Specifically, Rhaegar riding past Elia to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Yes, that is a humiliation. And it's undeniable that no one was happy.

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause…Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor…Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

But, humiliating Elia is not the same thing as being responsible for her death. The narrative never equates these two things in any way. Elia's death is about Tywin's immoral and blood thirsty political actions. It's about Dorne's desire for justice (or is it vengeance?) which they know they will not get from the Lannister regime. House Lannister's downfall in King's Landing will be brought about by Prince Aegon's rise - Aegon who is proclaiming to be the long lost son of Prince Rhaegar, and who is being supported by House Martell as of now.

We can criticize Rhaegar for some things, but Elia's death is surely not one of them.

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

Low quality pic of me as Ser Gregor Clegane vs Aegon Targaryen II . I saw two HoTD cosplayers at con 😊

Centuries apart yet still clashing swords.

[chasingthedragons]

Kingsguard armor through the ages

Ser Harrold Westerling, Ser Criston Cole and the twins Ser Arryk & Erryk Cargyll

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning & Ser Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy

Ser Meryn Trant, Sandor Clegane the Hound, Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer, Ser Gregor Clegane the Mountain & Ser Barristan Selmy

[tronodiferro]

House Clegane of Clegane's Keep

GameOfThronesFanatic-Knjiga

[super-sootica]

I've done a lot of these polls, so let's get ahead of a few things.

His name is Ser Gregor Clegane - Yeah but The Mountain sounds cooler

Why not use the actors name? Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (one of the actors who played The Mountain) - because he seems a nice man so I'd rather Bruce Lee hurt The Mountain

Of course you're supposed to assume both are alive, in this reality and in the prime of life-ish

'OP you know nothing' Well duuuh

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

all I think about is House Clegane core

続・ついろぐ

[sare11aa11eras]

Okay to further the argument: Ser Robert Strong/Gregor Clegane is both the worst Kingsguard and the pinnacle of the Kingsguard. He’s assaulted a Princess and murdered three members of the Royal Family (let’s leave aside the fact that the current Royal Family is not the same). He’s a serial killer. He is presented in Book One as the fundamental deconstructed truth of knighthood, the reason why the Hound exists and why Sandor can never be a knight. Gregor is the embodiment of the Lannister army in book 2. But then at the same time, he is the Kingsguard ideal— completely obedient, completely without thought, agency, interest, motivation, or qualm. Ser Gerold Hightower says that the Kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, not judge him. You know who will never judge the king? A brainless zombie. You know who can never object to a king’s order? A brainless zombie. You know who is really good at singlemindedly killing all physical threats?? A SEVEN FOOT TALL BRAINLESS ZOMBIE. Arys Oakheart almost got his charge killed because a hot girl told him to. Criston Cole started a civil war. Jaime Lannister killed the king to save the city. You know who’s not doing any of that? Robert Strong.

Visenya Targaryen had many legacies. Her son, Maegor the Cruel, bears a certain resemblance to Robert Strong, both being massive, strong, brutal, and cruel men with multiple wives, both probably the products of dark magic— which I find fitting because Robert Strong is the final essence of perhaps her most enduring legacy: the institution of the Kingsguard.

[cjbolan]

I agree Aegon was reckless with Sunfyre and basically got his beloved dragon greviously wounded in a fight. He was irresponsible and poor Sunfyre paid the price.

But still, kind of a stretch for some to say that he never saw Sunfyre as more than an expendable tool? I mean, heaven forbid that even an objectively bad person can have a few nicer and more endearing traits even if they don't justify his actions. He's not some one-dimensional Saturday morning cartoon villain who gloats about how evil he is.

Completely agree. There's very few one-dimensional villains in Westeros, and so far Aegon II is not one of them.

Interestingly, all the more one-dimensional villains are in GOT (Joffrey, Ramsay, Ser Meryn, The Mountain, Craster, etc.)

HOTD in comparison has more morally gray characters. I can see why some GOT fans don't like HOTD.

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

Braids on Ser Gregor Clegane are best. Long haired Clegane brothers aaaaaa

10/31 “Pattern” Inktober 2019

Ever wonder how Ser Gregor Clegane got those whip scars? I know, I know, creating content nobody asked for, I am.

[wildfirefruitjars]

Guess I wasn't completely done with family portraits, for here is house Clegane! Though this time I made it more difficult for myself and didn't just draw siblings, but also parents, and because I hate myself I also drew said siblings as kids... I had fun, tho! It was fun playing around with how much or little I wanted them to look like each other, and it was of course quite the challenge to "babify" the characters!

Oh well, first of course have Daddy and Mommy Clegane! We know very little about either, but I like to imagine they hate each other <3

Gregor I took great pleasure in giving freckles as freckles are adorable and Gregor is anything but! Also I wanted him to look around twelve as a kid, but he looks older... but that's fine, we know he was a huge preteen anyways!

The Piss-puppy himself, Sandor. I've drawn his scar on his right instead of his left as I usually do, as somebody (Sansa) is very confusing/inconsistent about what side it is! -_- Also babby Sandor is supposed to be around seven (again, looks too old, but Cleganes just grow quick, ok!) I was just gonna draw him post-burn, but then I was struck by the powerful urge to give him a bowl cut, which just wouldn't work well when bald on one side!

And then we have the sister, whose tooth was definitely knocked out by Gregor! She is supposed to be around five as a kid.

The sister is actually the reason I drew them as children as well as adults. All we know about the sister is that she died young under queer circumstances, which is rumored to be Gregor's fault. We don't even know where she lays age wise in the sibling order! But by dying young, I assume she probably died while under ten, but I originally didn't wanna draw kids, as I wanted to draw facial features and young children are just round-faced, button nosed blobs, so I just drew her as an adult! But then I decided I ought to challenge myself, and I drew babies!

If anybody somehow was bored enough to read my whole ramble, I'm sorry... as a bonus you can get to hear my headcanon names for the unnamed Cleganes!

I like to call daddy Clegane for Rolder and his father for Caspor (whom I might draw one day) Mommy Clegane I've decides to name Tanda and for the sister I've chosen Lynora :P

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

⚔️🐕 The Hound 🐕⚔️

Undressed.

Armour .

Armour witch tunic and cape.

Fully geared.

Now comparison between brothers ⚔️🏔️🐕⚔️

I'm so proud of this one.

Brothers comparison came out well. 🐕🐕🐕

[crazy-dane-art]

Is it really a family photo if there's no chaos

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

Love love love

Ser Gregor Clegane, “The Mountain That Rides”, from the “A Song of Ice and Fire” series.

[allovesthings]

I've been thinking about of the double standard in this fandom and it's so aggravating sometimes.

This post started because I was thinking Rhaenyra and house of the dragon (the tv show) so I'll talk about her and that show first, with the videos calling her "the mad queen" for *checking note* turning around and looking mad at the camera because her son is dead while we never hear the same thing when Aemond ask his nephew to give his own eye out and then chase him with a gigantic dragon through a storm. Or Crispin bashing the head of someone at a Banquet because he was mad...

I feel like the most obvious one is Dany but this is a problem of GOT portraying Dany as "the mad queen" and the fandom applying it to the books when someone else very obviously have parallels and foreshadowing for it and it's not Dany (hint: it's start with a C and end with Ersei) and it really bother me especially considering people like Tywin Lannister who sacked King's Landing, ordered the murder of children, plotted the red wedding, destroyed two entire houses or the Boltons who were also part of the red wedding AND are known to flay people alive or even the Freys (who while not liked by the fandom are not called mad either) also part of the red wedding as a response to an offence that was repaid with the wedding of Edmure or the Mountain who has done more horrific things than anyone else and they are also never being called "mad" for that.

And then we get to Arya being too far gone and leaving on a boat out of society because she is being trained as an assassin (as if her part of her storyline was not about her finding a place in society as a gender-non conforming girl and not being able to lose her identity as Arya Stark through everything ), when there are men like Jaime or Sandor Clegane (or even Theon) who have killed children (or tried to for Jaime) and lost theirs identity to some extent and still seen as sympathetic and there no doubts in the fandom's mind that they are not too far gone and have a chance to come back from the horrors they"ve done.

Which leads me to Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart. While I do agree that she might be different as Lady Stoneheart (being killed in an horrifying manner after watching her oldest dies also in a horrifying way would do that to you), this is not really criticism and more of an open-ended thing that's been going through my mind. If we compare the theories on Lady Stoneheart and Jon post resurrection, both of them being more vengeful seems to be the main theory but only Cat is getting killed again by Arya because "she is too far gone in her vengeance". Part of it is actual foreshadowing that could be there (not sure if I believe it but I think the hints could point to it) but part of it feels like it's not.

[first-of-her-nxme]

I was rereading agot and I think that maybe Jaqen could have tried to kill Gregor? At the tourney where he is basically competing with Loras his horse is acting up. I remember from the chapter of Arya at the HoBaW with the poisons lesson and there is one used in animals too, to make them mad or something. He heard maybe how Ser Hugh was killed so he tried to use the tourney the same way to kill him. Idk it’s interesting to read the first book bc I feel like there are so many clues and esp when you read theories then everything starts to feel kind of insane thinking it’s actually something. Grrm we need the books please..😭😏

What a great question! You are very observant.

I must say I don't really subscribe to the horse theory because I think it takes a lot more to kill Gregor. Though maybe it was a warm up? :) You are right though: Jaqen's goal is to kill Gregor as well. Moreover, it has already been established in the books that he will kill him.

I suppose the original plan was that Oberyn would kill Gregor. Oberyn was older, at the time he must have been stronger than young Jaqen. Oberyn also had a history of beating the seemingly stronger opponents. And, as we know, he wanted the revenge badly.

Oberyn succeeded but he also got killed in the process. And Qyburn managed to revive what was left of Gregor and turned him into an even worse monster. And that monster will be eventually killed by "Jaqen". Perhaps, GRRM wanted both, Oberyn and "Jaqen", to have their revenge on the one who brutally murdered their sister/mother?

GRRM here makes a nod to the legend of Ragnar. When Ragnar was captured he promised that his sons would one day come and avenge his father:

How the little piggies will grunt when they hear how the old boar suffered.

The old boar is Ragnar and the piglets, his sons. They did avenge their father, killing the king who sentenced him to death.

Here is how GRRM incorporated it into ASOIAF:

Robert Baratheon was killed by a boar. The hunting scene looked similar to Robert's and Rhaegar's duel at the Trident. Robert seemed fatally wounded and about to fall but he still managed to kill the boar. So, the boar here stands for Rhaegar. Then, Rhaegar's son, Aegon/Jaqen, arrived in King's Landing with his plan of revenge. Aegon then went to Oldtown and assumed the identity of the "little pig" - Pate called Pate the Pig Boy. So, we have a killed boar, Rhaegar, and his son, the young pig boy, Aegon/Jaqen, and his revenge.

Robert was called strong. Now, when Qyburn revived Gregor, they called him Ser Robert Strong. So, he is not only Gregor, he is also symbolically Robert Baratheon. The pig boy will return to kill the murderer of his mother and also, symbolically, the killer of his father, Rhaegar "the old boar".

There is another reference to a duel between Jaqen and Ser Robert. It's in A Dance with Dragons, in Jon's POV, when Shireen meets the giant, Wun Weg Wun. It's tremendously important to remember that Shireen and Patchface are foils for Arya and Jaqen. And this little scene is loaded with foreshadowing for them, not for Shireen.

"Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun." The giant's voice rumbled like a boulder crashing down a mountainside. He sank to his knees before them. Even kneeling, he loomed over them. "Kneel queen. Little queen." Words that Leathers had taught him, no doubt.

Princess Shireen's eyes went wide as dinner plates. - ADWD

The giant calls Shireen little queen even though she is a princess. GRRM wrote it like that because the little queen title refers to Arya's future plot. Patchface here is dressed like a king so we have a royal couple in the room. The giant takes interest in Patches and it frightens "the king". Patchface is dancing but he eventually lands on his bottom. And we get this riddle from him:

"In the dark the dead are dancing." - Patchface, ADWD

This little scene is another hint at the duel between the giant, Ser Robert Strong, and the rightful king, Aegon/Jaqen.

Dancing stands in for fighting. The dead means that they are both assumed dead, Gregor was killed by Oberyn and Aegon was supposed to die in King's Landing. It might also mean that they both will die though not necessary both during that duel. Them dancing/fighting in the dark means that A/J will have to put his blind training to use. As you know, all faceless men learn to fight while blinded. Oberyn lost the fight when Gregor blinded him. I do hope that Ser Robert won't blind A/J. However, Ser Robert never opens his visor so perhaps there will be a demand for A/J to fight with his visor closed as well. The duel might take place in King's Landing during the trial by combat, so some authority might force their rules on the fighters.

I hope it sheds a little light on the events to come.

Thank you for dropping by, Anon!

[enterprise420patriots]

Game of Thrones: Episode: “Mockingbird”