#satine critical

[antianakin]

Satine: Extremists can ALWAYS be reasoned with and anyone who believes otherwise is an extremist themselves!

Things currently happening to Satine:

Extremist group on Mandalore revealed themselves to be totally lying about having been reasoned with for TWENTY YEARS and Satine had no idea

Extremist group on Mandalore is actively trying to murder her

Extremist group on Mandalore is working with the Separatists in order to force Mandalore out of neutrality in the war

Extremist group on Mandalore infiltrated her own government in multiple areas and she had no idea and they're now about to blow up the ship she's on after murdering multiple of the clones on board

Things Satine is doing about her situation:

Never once attempts to reason with the extremist group on Mandalore

Ignores it until the extremists attack her planet with an organized crime mob and she immediately rolls over and surrenders to them

But sure. Extremists can totally always be reasoned with, that's a good strategy for her to have that definitely doesn't completely blow up in her face.

[2stepadmiral]

Maybe sort of a hot take? Satine Kryze was a terrible leader and kind of a petty tyrant. Like, look at what she actually did and how she did it and what the consequences were:

She committed effective cultural genocide against her own people by eviscerating a millennia-old culture/creed/tradition/religion, removing the at least 80% of it that she didn’t like and demanded that everyone else adapt it

Those who refused to relinquish their ancestral ways were exiled from their homeworld and even robbed of their cultural identity when she claimed that anyone who still practiced the warrior ways were not true Mandalorians

By enforcing this ‘my way or the highway’ policy, she created the environment where Pre Vizsla could form Death Watch and recruit all the followers he had out of the disillusioned she had branded as outcasts

By enforcing her strict pacifism, she disarmed her people and even her security forces, leaving the planet defenseless against both Death Watch and the Shadow Collective (imagine if the Yuuzhan Vong had invaded during this period)

Publicly belittled and insulted a high profile General in the Grand Army of the Republic/ Master and Council member of the Jedi Order in front of a number of Senators and her courtiers because he dared to point out that the Separatists might not let her remain neutral

Publicly stated that she didn’t want Jedi security present when traveling with a retinue of Republic Senators in the midst of a terrorism crisis that she was the main target of, in front of a number of people who would have been put at risk had she gotten her way

When Obi Wan pointed out that the Senators and likely her courtiers had requested Jedi security due to concerns for their own safety that she had disregarded, rather than acknowledging her thoughtlessness, she again insulted Obi-Wan and provoked an argument that she aggravated into a bickering session while Obi Wan tried and gradually failed at keeping civil

She seceded her world from the Republic rather than allow the slightest impression that she endorsed the Clone War (never mind that Alderaan and Naboo were prominent members of the Senate that opposed war and actively worked to end it peacefully and quickly without seceding), which forfeited the government aid Mandalore needed to survive in its damaged state and led directly to Prime Minister Almec having to use the black market just to keep the people fed

And in the end, all she accomplished was a maybe fifteen-twenty year period of relative peace before civil war broke out again, Maul took charge, the Empire forced fifteen years of relative obedience, and ultimately the planet was bombed and the Mandalorian people were decimated. The role of a good ruler or leader is to do what is best for your people, even if it’s contrary to your own preferences or interests, and Satine consistently made her own beliefs the order of the day, enforced from the top down. Had she moderated her approach, maybe tried to redirect the warrior tendencies into galactic peacekeeping, or advocated for a warrior second, hardworking builder/farmer/pilot/tradesmen helping to rebuild Mandalore first (sort of what Boba Fett did as Mand’a’lor in the EU), despite her personal disdain for violence and warfare, she could have been one of the greatest Mandalorian leaders who affected real change. Instead, she allowed her personal priorities to be the priorities of her regime and the guiding principle of her tyranny.

[kanansdume]

Of course, thinking about how Bo-Katan and Satine's father's treatment of them influenced Bo-Katan's terrible choices actually starts to shed some light on SATINE'S terrible choices, too.

Because as much as Bo-Katan would've dug her heels in and refused to compromise on her beliefs regarding traditional Mandalorian values and what their father would've wanted, Satine would've dug her heels in just the same and refused to compromise on her OWN opposite beliefs.

Which leads us to how Satine treats Obi-Wan and her disregard and dismissal of the Jedi and the situation they're in. There is nothing Obi-Wan could ever say that would convince Satine that the Jedi fighting in the war is a necessary evil. Nothing. He'll NEVER be able to convince her otherwise because Satine likely got completely dismissed by her father for her choice to be a pacifist or her arguments that Mandalorian infighting was supremely stupid. She was her father's EMBARRASSMENT and she likely knew it just as well as Bo-Katan did. I imagine she was asked to change her mind a lot or to just give up and compromise because she was the heir or something to that effect and she never ever allowed herself to because she knew that she was RIGHT.

But this leads to her refusing to see any kind of nuance in the Jedi's situation. It leads to a VERY limited definition of what it means to be a "peacekeeper" that doesn't take into account what you do what someone else attacks YOU. She claims she's not against the idea of defending herself, but cannot wrap her head around the idea that the Jedi fighting on behalf of the Republic IS them defending themselves and their people. Obi-Wan TRIES to argue his side of it, tries to make her see that refusing to fight would do nothing but allow the Separatists to kill and enslave and oppress everyone in the Republic, and Satine will hear NONE of it. She's completely and entirely convinced that she's right and refuses to budge on the topic to the point that she's willing to get into a screaming match with Obi-Wan about it in public.

This doesn't excuse or condone her arrogance and refusal to compromise or understand someone else's situation, but it at least adds some context to it to help make that unfortunate aspect of her personality make more SENSE. I know where it comes from now, and that lets me see it in a different light even if I still don't agree with her. Because while she was right about the Mandalorians (mostly), she was WRONG about the Jedi. She was wrong about the Separatists.

[bolithesenate]

Satine Kryze should not be a sympathetic character.

A complex and tragic one? Sure. Every day of the week.

But she did not 'have a point', neither in-universe, not outside of the sw framework. She isn't a hero, neither of her own story, nor of someone else's. There is no way she wasn't a tool. You should not look at her and think 'this woman has done nothing wrong and what ultimately happened to Mandalore was to no part her fault'.

Because guys. Friends. Strangers on the interwebs.

Pacifism doesn't work.

And it certainly wouldn't have worked in motherfucking Star Wars – the 'wars' is literally in the title – for a system or series of systems who wanted to stay neutral.

YOU DON'T STAY NEUTRAL FOR LONG BY JUST SAYING 'YEAH, NO THANKS <3' TO A LARGE-SCALE CONFLICT.

source: I am Swiss, we've looked at this in history class. Extensively.

Satine was a dreamer (thanks Obi-Wan) who was allowed to keep her delusions because they actively benefitted Palpatine's plans. And that's something you can quote me on. There is literally no other reason (apart from supremely bad writing but we'll leave that aside here) for her and her little friends' 'Alliance of Neutral Systems' or whatever to be allowed to exist.

Not that they were neutral in any way, shape or form, by the way.

So yeah sorry to the Satine stans, but you're idolizing a character that was written exclusively and specifically for Obi-Wan's manpain and who, in-universe, was a supremely bad politician. Because the level of mental dissonace needed to factually be a Republic System, have a seat in the fucking Republic Senate, rely upon their military for aid while actively proclaiming that All Violence Is Bad And Barbaric one sentence later AND THEN CLAIM TO BE NEUTRAL IN THE WHOLE CONFLICT – it's just mind-blowing. Even moreso that people actually look at this character and see something aspirational in her.

Again, I'll gladly dissect her character any day of the week. She is fascinating because of all the implications her existence as a head of state carries with it, as well as her deeply complicated family history and her relation to mandalorian culture.

But it just grates on me personally that that all gets ignored in favor of her being some sort of icon of white american saviorism (bc that's literally what she is) and her objectively bad political takes being treated like they are the only correct stance to be taken during the Clone Wars/Mandalorian Civil Wars.

If you think pacifism works and actually lets you stay neutral, I desperately urge you to open a history book. Because those two are mutually exclusive. Especially in the scenario that Star Wars paints.

[ominouspuff]

.

[hastalavistabyebye]

Canon mandalorian art and the Murals of Sundari

There's a very interesting thing about canon mandalorian art. Outside of Sabine's graffitis and armor paint, the only canon mando figurative art (that I have found) are the statue of Tarre Vizla -which go perfectly in star wars' long tradition of dead historical figures' statues, especially for Jedi- and the three murals of Mandalore. I said figurative because there is also the Memorial Shrine on Sundari that was bombed by death watch during the clone wars that is definitely not figurative. But that's another subject.

Of those two exemples of mandalorian sculptures that we know of, we have an old, historical, imposing rendition of a past Mand'alor (and in both medium and subject, what I personally headcanon as the favored type of art by Mandalorians) and a series of murals depicting one of the victories of the Mandalorians over the Jedi, during one of their war. And that mural is the only major art we see in Sundari, the New Mandalorians' Capital.

And that's what I'm going to talk about.

Those three murals have obviously been inspired by Picasso's Guernica. I'm absolutely not a Picasso specialist nor do I wish to be (he was an asshole first category, thank you very much but ew). But. What I do know is that Guernica was commanded to Picasso to illustrate the city Guernica's bombing and denounce fascism, and later on was a symbol of the horror of the war (especially the world war 2 which started two years after the realisation of this imposing painting). The blatant difference with Guernica in those murals is that the violence isn't denounced at all. It's highlighted. The Mandalorians Crusaders have halos, they're bigger, standing, orderly, majestic. Opposed to that are the Jedi, distorted, chaotic, small, at the feet of the Mandalorians. This is obvious propaganda in favor of the victors of the battle. (Of the battle only because it's the Jedi who won that war.)

Using Guernica was an interesting and easy way to show "A War" even if the soul of it is completely reversed (which is really interesting too) but yeah, that's a smart and quick way to send a mood to the person watching those episodes of clone war, without needing to focus on the art. You see the style, you understand roughly what's the meaning of it. End of the parenthesis.

What is interesting is that this is the only figurative art I've found for the New Mandalorians. More than that, that last mural was right under the speaking balcony, above the royal platform of Sundari's palace. Satine Kryze talked about her ideals just over the graphic depiction of Jedi being decapitated. This, added to the cultural genocide the New Mandalorians were making, paint one hell of a picture.

For that last part on the New Mandalorians, @/fox-trot made an amazing explanation of it, in some of their tags once but I can't find the post again :( roughly, they were highlighting how, notably in Legends, the Mandalorians used to be a vastly diverse people, different colors of skin, different species.... But with the arrival of the New Mandalorians, not only we can't see any art but those ones, not only do they want to erase entire parts of their traditions and culture (armor doesn't mean war, you could change the warrior and blood culture without taking the armor out, cue Jedi and their weapons lightsaber), but they also are all human, white and rich. Boba and Jango Fett aren't seen as Mandalorians at all. The Wren are Death Watch so traitors and terrorists. The New Mandalorians are good and safe and refuse any way of protection, are more passive than neutral in that regard, and are a white, human elite.

That elite have hid/erased/we-can't-even-know-because-it-can-only-be-seen-in-it's-obvious-absence all of their traditional art but those murals, depicting the massacre that was one of their victorious battles in a war they ultimately lost. This is one hell of a propaganda and rewriting of History.

You can read it in many ways, two I can think of are :

-the New Mandalorians Government want to send the message "See how bloody and terrible and not-good mandalorian culture is. We need to be pacifists to not-be-like-that"

-but what it can look like is the symbolic reality of what they're doing : a cultural genocide painted in glorious light.

Anyway you want to look at it, with such a critical light of the new mandalorians or not, that those murals are the only art display in Sundari's palace still send one hell of a message.

[antianakin]

So Satine's likely going to win this one and I do get why, but I also think that there's some solid evidence Satine isn't nearly as good of a leader as the narrative would like us to think she is, and some evidence that Cody perhaps has some interpersonal management skills Satine does not.

Satine's history, as told to us in TCW, lets us know that she took a population just out of a very destructive Civil War and (mostly) got them all to agree to move towards a more peaceful society for about twenty years. This would've required an insane amount of interpersonal skills between people who literally went to war against each other just because they could not that long ago. This would've required a lot of creating new ways of governing things, new committees or organizations that allowed people to find jobs that had nothing to do with fighting or war. It also seems to have required handling the fact that their planet was now quite literally uninhabitable and they all had to live under domes to survive at all.

This SHOULD mean that Satine is an incredibly competent leader who has things like creativity and patience and understanding in spades. There doesn't really seem to be a way for her to have accomplished what we're told she accomplished without those things.

But almost as soon as we meet her, we see her show a lack of understanding towards the Jedi and she condemns all of them for fighting in the war. Instead of understanding that their situation is DIFFERENT from hers and therefore might require a different solution, she just decides they're wrong and have lost their way from being the peacekeepers they purport to be. She never changes her mind from this stance for as long as we know her, no matter what Obi-Wan says to her about it. This exhibits a lack of willingness to meet people with different views from her own halfway, a lack of willingness to understand where people with different views might be coming from, and honestly a little bit of arrogance. None of this makes sense coming from a person who theoretically brought together hundreds of different clans who would've had radically different views from her own and radically different views from each other.

We also see Satine showcase that she's entirely capable of becoming a tyrant if pushed hard enough. During the episode with the poisoned drinks, she threatens an innocent man with imprisonment TWICE for not doing as she asks immediately. She also threatens a man (who IS guilty) with torture if he doesn't answer her questions. Not only does this demonstrate a lack of patience, it also goes to show just how willing Satine is to throw away her pacifist ideals when it benefits HER or when she's pushed hard enough. Padme is standing right there when she threatens torture and even Padme seems taken aback and tries to say something and Satine shuts her down. The second time Satine threatened the innocent man with imprisonment, she does so because he doesn't want to blow up a warehouse full of evidence about the poisoned drinks. He just fought against the smugglers and nearly died to stop them, and it doesn't matter to Satine. He questions her ONCE and that's enough for her to threaten to accuse him of having been a collaborator with the smugglers.

And it's not even helpful! Satine then has to turn around and call in the Jedi to help uncover the corruption in her government and her own teenaged nephew and his friends end up having to do all of the work and rescue HER from her own Prime Minister after this. We'll never know for sure, obviously, but it's possible that she might have had an easier time uncovering the people behind the smuggling if she hadn't quite literally blown up the warehouse full of evidence of the smuggling. There's never anything to indicate that blowing up the warehouse actually does anything useful for her or anybody else on Mandalore. It's JUST performative.

So not only do we see Satine show an immense lack of patience (and a curious lack of pacifism) during this arc, we also see how her lack of creative problem-solving actually causes MORE problems and puts more children in danger as a result. The similarity between Satine's actions here and "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy" are a little eerie.

Also, the entire reason the smuggling HAPPENS is because Satine had insisted on neutrality which cut them off from all trade with any planets aligned with either the Republic or the Separatists, something that's completely devastating for a planet that literally cannot grow its own food and is theoretically more dependent than anyone else on trade for survival. Not once does Satine actually acknowledge her own culpability in this or address that the root problem here is the neutrality, NOT the "corruption" in her government. Yes, Almec turns to black market smuggling as a result, and it doesn't go well. Yes, he doesn't discuss this with her. But instead of recognizing the difficulty she'd put him in with her choices and actually try to find a REAL SOLUTION to the trade problem, she just imprisons Almec and never appears to do anything else and then is surprised when she keeps having problems with "corruption." Her unwillingness to recognize the part she played in her planet's problems doesn't make her look that good.

And then there's the attack by Maul and Death Watch. Satine sees Death Watch come in to save people from the crime syndicates and immediately decides that she's lost to Death Watch. There's no real attempt at any kind of negotiation, no attempt to see if she can regain the people's love, no attempt to even expose Death Watch and remind the people of the terrible things they've been doing the last year or so. She just immediately rolls over and surrenders. Again, this is an astonishing lack of creativity from someone who is supposed to have managed to bring together most of the clans of Mandalore after a really nasty Civil War. Where is her backbone now? Why is she so quick to surrender? Why doesn't she bother to even TRY to fight back, even if she thinks she might get killed for it?

(It's never actually mentioned, but since we know from the poisoned drinks arc that trade is an issue they are dealing with, it's entirely possible that the Mandalorians are going hungry as a direct result of Satine's insistence on neutrality and they know who to blame. If Satine is aware of the growing frustration towards her over the trade issues, that might explain why she thinks there's no point to trying to win the people back over, but this is pure speculation and a headcanon on my part, it's not actually ever addressed in the episodes themselves.)

And of course none of this touches the weirdness that is "the warriors" getting "exiled" to Concordia. People have gone back and forth over that for years, about whether it was the right thing to do or not, about whether it was cruel or not, about what her intentions actually were with that choice, etc. It's weird and I don't think it's written well, but regardless of WHY she made that choice, it's canon that there's an entire group of people that Satine THINKS she's made peace with but who are actually planning to kill her and have been doing so for years (and probably have been lying about being loyal to her this whole time). So while Satine is said to have made peace among all of the war-loving clans of Mandalore, she didn't ACTUALLY make peace with all of them and there's a fairly significant chunk of them that either got exiled or just laid low planning treason the entire time. So it's pretty clear that her skills at managing groups of people with different worldviews isn't anywhere near as good as she might have thought it was or as good as the narrative wanted US to think it was.

So, the CONCEPT of Satine? She's a good ruler. The person that exists in the history we're told about her MUST be a good leader because there's no way for her to have done the things we're told she's done if she isn't. But the reality of Satine as we see her on screen, the version of her that we see dealing with different crises? That person is a genuinely incompetent leader who seems to teeter on the edge of being a tyrant without a lot of effort and can't show a lot of understanding or acceptance towards people with different ideas to her own.

And then there's Cody. So, for obvious reasons, we barely know what Cody is like as a leader and we don't really ever get to see him forced to do any problem solving on screen. BUT, we do have the Bad Batch.

The Bad Batch are canonically IMMENSELY prejudiced towards the clones, to the point that they've come up with their own special slur for the clones that they use REGULARLY. But the one person they seem to like, respect, and even trust? Is Cody. They don't even just seem to respect Cody as an equal, they seem to trust him as a LEADER. Rex ultimately ends up earning their respect as an equal, but they never look to him for leadership or treat him like a leader. But they do with Cody. And that says SO MUCH about Cody's ability to take people who probably didn't agree with him on much of anything and approach them in a way that actually WORKED long term.

He literally earned their trust SO WELL that when Crosshair is still DEEP in his loyalty to the Empire, the first person to really cause him to doubt that loyalty was CODY. Crosshair doesn't obey Cody on everything, but he's not upset at being put under Cody's leadership, either, and it's Cody's words that seem to plant that first seed. As much as Crosshair bonds with Mayday, I'm not sure that Mayday's death would've actually spurred him to defect from the Empire if Cody hadn't already started that process.

And when Cody is still (presumably) struggling under the chip, we see him attempt a peaceful resolution with an enemy and SUCCEED. Crosshair kills that enemy and so Cody's attempt at peace goes nowhere, obviously, but Cody himself is able to speak to a woman who has no reason to trust him and who has been actively hostile towards the Empire already and he seems to convince her towards a peaceful surrender within a few minutes. So it's not even JUST the Bad Batch that he's able to have this kind of management with, he can do it with complete strangers with no connection to him, too! He's genuinely shown to be REALLY GOOD at handling people with different worldviews than his own and earning their respect and their trust, and KEEPING IT.

So while we never see Cody having to manage an entire population of people who don't agree with each other, we DO see evidence that Cody's probably actually pretty good at managing interpersonal interactions with people who don't agree with him or are actively hostile towards him, while Satine showcases a pretty extreme lack of patience and understanding towards those with different opinions to her own or who dare to question her. There's pretty solid evidence to show that Satine DOESN'T actually manage to convince people with different opinions to respect or trust her, while Cody DOES. I'm willing to believe that Cody could learn to expand his skills to larger groups of people, while Satine is an already proven failure.

ROUND THREE: MATCH-UP ONE

Remember, this is NOT about who would win in a fight. This is about who makes the best leader for Mandalore as a whole.

Explanation post

Seeding

Propaganda below the cut! You can submit more on this post and I will reblog it back to here!

SATINE KRYZE

Anon: Satine because she served. Mandalorian fashion week would love her. Manda'slay.

Anon: Satine Propaganda: Was supported by the STRONG MAJORITY, led Mandalore to be in peace for NEARLY 20 YEARS, didn't ban mando'a or armour or any part of the culture like fandom claims, is a good fighter, considered EVERY Mandalorian a Mandalorian and didn't discriminate

@lightsaberwieldingdalek: Satine propaganda: she actually ran a functioning government. Not a mercenary band, or a death cult, or a terrorist extremist organisation, an actual functioning government. Yes there was corruption, corruption she did her best to stop to the point of personally getting in firefights with smugglers, but she took a planet devastated by civil war and by the end of her rule she had schools, public works, and a justice system. - Sure, the rest can run military operations (and we don’t know Satine couldn’t, only that she *won’t*) but can they make the bins get emptied regularly to go to the recycling plants?

COMMANDER CODY

Anon: Propaganda for Commander Cody: - Cody was a student of Alpha-17, who in turn had been personally trained by former Mand'alor Jango Fett, giving him a strong training lineage claim to the title - Cody's service as Marshall Commander in the GAR gave him a lot of the diplomatic, organizational, and military experience needed to govern a planet like Mandalore

@spacetime1969: This man has led more people at once than anyone on this list.

Anon: Cody should be Mand'alor because it would be unspeakably sexy

@cha0s-cat: Cody has experience with negotiating from accompanying Obi-Wan, he leads a massive amount of his brothers already. Can recognize when there is a need for negotiations vs a need for violence. This would balance out the majority of the two factions (pacifists/traditionalists) excluding the extremists on either end. And with the amount of chaos that he has to deal with when it comes to Obi-Wan and Anakin, this would probably be relaxing.

@skykind: - Has resisted fascism and its attendant police/military state at great personal risk (Bad Batch 2.3), which is apparently necessary to successfully govern Mandalore so long as Death Watch is fully armed and also backed by someone more cunning than their usual leadership (Clone Wars 5.15). - Possesses exceptional leadership and organizational ability from his time as one of the highest-ranked Clone officers of the GAR. The Clone Wars and Bad Batch narratives furthermore present him as Obi-Wan’s peer, so he should be interpreted as equally skilled, wise, kind, and unhinged-in-battle as Obi-Wan. Jury’s out on the sarcasm. - Turns to diplomacy before fighting (Bad Batch 2.3). - Has caught a Jedi’s lightsaber mid-battle at least two times (Clone Wars 1.20 and Revenge of the Sith). This is a very useful skill to have as the prospective or current leader of people who keep chucking the darksaber about. - Has returned a lightsaber to a Jedi at least two times. This is a crucial skill to have as the prospective or current leader of people who should stop selecting said leader via darksaber acquisition.

@antianakin: [From the Boba vs Cody poll] So in a very practical sense, if I'm just looking at it with the question of "Who actually has the skills to be a good leader of people" [between Boba and Cody] then the answer is undoubtedly Cody. Cody was trained his entire life presumably to be a Commander in a large army and seems to do that very successfully for three years. He seems fairly humble, has good teamwork skills, he's kind and understanding and merciful, and he's a very skilled fighter. All of this would serve him exceedingly well if he chose to take on a leadership position, on Mandalore or otherwise. - The one downside to Cody is that Cody shows exactly zero interest in Mandalore at all. Cody does not identify as a Mandalorian at any point and never seems like he'd want to, let alone LEAD the Mandalorians. I do not personally see Cody actually being WILLING to lead Mandalore if offered the opportunity, even if he'd definitely have the skills to do so. I feel like if it were offered to him or fell into his lap somehow, he'd just pass it off immediately to the next most qualified person who was interested in it. Mandalore is not his problem or his responsibility and he's not about to change that.

There was a lot of discourse on the Bo-Katan vs. Cody poll, but it was largely "this is why the other character is a bad choice" rather than "this is why my fave is a good choice," so there isn't really a good way to include it.

[impossibleprincess35]

When the first words out of someone's mouth about why they hate Satine includes the claim of genocide:

[marvelstars]

I do like TWC cartoon because it felt like an oportunity for us fans to see more of our fave characters in a day to day basis and it gave great and individualized personalities to clone troopers to let us know they are people under their armor but I agree with some fellow fans that in some chapters the show takes shortcuts and instead of delving into Anakin´s character when he makes decisions which should by all rights affect him emotionally, they play it for a joke because he will be "Vader"so it doesn´t matter or the show adds extra trauma that should be explored, see the Queen of Zigerria or his rescue of Jabba´s Son or the microchip in clone soldiers heads(the only difference between them and child slave Anakin was that Anakin´s had a bomb while the troopers are forced to obey or the chip makes them more obedient to the Jedi or members in the military) but TCW only shows Anakin mad in general at all those events while the other characters act as if he didn´t had a reason to get mad or he is exagerating because he is a "bad Jedi" tm because aparently his main problem is that he "cares too much" but it isn´t wrong to care and he isn´t wrong that they probably should be doing more for those situations that they are currently doing but the show doesn´t show it and this flattens Anakin´s character and I believe it also flattens the characters around him.

For example Satine and Obi-Wan

This moment is played for laughs while Satine and Obi-Wan seem to have next to zero reaction to Anakin´s action because after all, the man killed was indeed ready to kill them and all the people on their ship with a bomb and if he keep himself hidden he probably would have tried to murder Satine until he managed to do it.

Still I am not a fan of "good guys" who don´t want to kill or have doubts about the idea of murder but are totally fine with other characters who are their allies doing it for them so they keep their hands "clean". In the show Obi-Wan does this with Rex and Anakin. Neither when shows use this trope as a joke.

That makes them hypocrites because they are involved in the murder by accepting or ordering it even if they didnt do the deed themselves. The fact this doesn´t bother them shows they didn´t personally care that much about the act of murder itself, just about the fact they had to do it because it´s distateful for their self image of being a "good person" it´s fine for their allies, already used to violence to do it for them, they are already "grey" but not for them because they are "good". So imo they are also in denial about their personal responsibility in the whole issue.

Obi-Wan didn´t have a problem to cut off a guy arms for speaking rude to Luke in ANH which is the first time we meet him as a character, I don´t think he would hesitate so much in this instance just because Satine is there, he is in canon a pretty pragmatic guy and Satine is a planetary leader who probably had to order the use of force to tackle security with death watch involved in many confrontations with her goverment and if we include the years in which Mandalore was under civil war it´s possible she had to use force to protect herself or her family.

I do understand this was done in jest and to involve Vader´s theme but this definitely wasn´t a Vader kind of situation imo and I believe its interesting to analyze the character deeper motivations and this scene deserved more depth than the one given.

This is also why I regret the show never showing Anakin´s first years as an active general in the war on Bespin, that was a formative moment for Anakin as a leader and warrior and it explains so much about his characterization later in the war but also his trauma over death, the reason why he is so protective of the clones, his master, Ahsoka, Rex, Padme, Palpatine, etc.

[antianakin]

I feel like I've seen a lot of "Empress Padme" or "Sith Padme" stories where Padme's gets pushed to a breaking point and becomes evil or convinces herself into doing evil things in the name of justice, and while that's all entirely valid, I feel like I need more Empress SATINE stories.

Because Satine is, canonically, someone who is absolutely willing to go for torture and wrongful imprisonment when pushed far enough. She is someone who will performatively destroy things just to prove that she's "against corruption." Satine is someone who will see the consequences of her own choices happen and refuse to take an ounce of responsibility for it.

So I can absolutely see Satine becoming a violent tyrant while convincing herself and telling everyone else that she's just getting rid of corruption, she's just doing what has to be done. She will purify the world and anyone who tries to get in her way is just part of that corruption and will be eliminated.

Like maybe this is in an AU where she doesn't die during the attack by Maul and Death Watch, she manages to survive, but then she lives through the rise of the Empire and instead of being deposed by Gar Saxon, she fights back and fights back hard enough that Mandalore gets glassed early. And that pushes her to a breaking point because she REFUSES to let her people just... scatter, she WILL hold them together if it's the last thing she does, and she WILL get vengeance on the Empire for what it's done to Mandalore.

And poor sweet pacifist Duchess Satine just spirals further and further into her own darkness, convinced that she's just doing what she has to, swearing that it's necessary in the name of justice. But if her own people start questioning her, if they try to stop her, well they're probably spies for the Empire and she's promised to take out the Empire as vengeance for what was lost.

[airasilver]

Ah, I couldn't remember for sure how many Jedi survived so thank you for that answer. (I did remember only Jango survived of his group.)

I forgot about the Children of The Watch! I love Din and can't believe I forgot about his faction. (I wonder if it's because there is a fnaon theory that Pax is actually the son of the Commander of Death Watch during TCW, I forgot his name.)

So us calling them True, New, etd isn't fanon only. I probably have it on my blog somewhere but good to know if I don't.

Thank you for the resources on Satine. I could probably like her...if they had done her correct and not make me hate her for how she treats everyone, except a certain few, around her. Bo-Katan is worse and then just the same to me.

There's a poll that is Satine vs Cody and Satine is winning and people seem to hate us that are critical of her. Even though a lot of us have good reason to be.

It's just like people saying deaths should not be celebrated but then celebrating some anyways. Or saying the Jedi is nevwe wrong, not a lot mind you, but Anakin can't be redeemed, ever.

I guess it is just us humans being humans.

So question..how the fuck are the clones not Mandalorian when Boba is? When Jango is? Or did Disney decide that they aren’t anymore (Jango and Boba)?

I thought they had made Jango Mandalorian and then took it away and then brought him back in. So wouldn’t the clones, who hold his DNA be Mandalorian?

If Boba is Mandalorian, the others should be also.

Wait! Does this mean Jaster isn’t Mandalorian either?

[bosooka]

every so often i open the satine tag to see another post that starts "umm maybe this is a hot take but i don't like satine" followed by a take that could freeze hell over

[kanansdume]

It's interesting to look at all of the ways in which the Kryze sisters are just... so SO hypocritical in just about everything that they do and believe and how similar they are in how that hypocrisy colors their choices and beliefs. They're both such incredibly arrogant people who refuse to really compromise on much of anything and stand so firm in their beliefs that they will condemn others for having different beliefs or making different choices without trying to be understanding or accepting of differing circumstances.

Bo-Katan's now had so many more decades to live with the consequences of her choices and to recognize where she went wrong and to start to compromise a little and change her beliefs to something more similar to what we know Satine believed.

Satine didn't quite live long enough to get to the same place. We'll never know if Satine would've been able to meet Bo-Katan halfway or compromise on some of her own judgments down the line or if she would've stuck to her own arrogance no matter the consequences.

[fanfic-obsessed]

Hi! Hope your August is off to a good start. Could I send a prompt for Talk Shop Tuesday?

Feel free to ignore the prompt if not!

Some or Several of the trainers look at the babies with their alor's face that said alor wants them to train for a war and go "we think the fuck not.

@somestorythoughts Sorry I did not answer yesterday, it took me a bit to get my thoughts in order for this.

Look there is never a bad time for me to receive a prompt,  a question, or a random message.  It brings me great joy.

Now For the Prompt:

Some or Several of the trainers look at the babies with their alor's face that said alor wants them to train for a war and go "we think the fuck not.

My first thought, before anything, is that Mij is the ringleader. There is no doubt that the medics would be the ones to spearhead this and Mij, of all of them, best remembers both Jaster and little Jango.

I also think that the medics do not really know what the babies are really there for at first. If we think about the Psychology of Jango Fett- Orphaned twice over, a leader too early, the death of his people (that he 100% will not face is partly his own fault-as he shot first) and his own enslavement, semi forced addiction to Spice from the aforementioned enslavement. While none of these things makes Jango evil, they do make him a bit broken. I do believe that in this one he is lying to everyone. 

He is telling the Kaminoans that he is training what will be the GAR (it does not matter if they know the full plot or not, Jango thinks they don’t). He is telling Dooku that he is honing the clones into a weakness for the republic and a wake up call for the Jedi while knowing Sidious’s actual plan for the clones. Of the trainers, he is telling some that the clones will be a trap for the Jedi, others that they will be getting some enormous payment, while telling still others (like Mij) that he is planning to steal the clones to rebuild the True Mandalorians, assuring the interested groups that he is working for the best of Mandalore. 

Most of all Jango is telling himself that he has not become worse than any of the crimes committed against him. 

It is all lies. 

For the first year, this house of cards remains standing. Jango has convinced most of the groups he is lying to that he is lying to everyone but them. Not that all of them care, but some do.  

It is such a small thing, in the grand scheme of things, that tips Mij off. Jango has managed to explain away the numbers (to give the clones a chance to name themselves), the lack of armor (that much armor is expensive), and other such discrepancies as necessities for ‘tricking’ their employer. 

It starts with a single look. A microexpression when Mij asks Jango to hold the toddler A-17 during a routine check. Disgust. It stuck in Mij’s mind all the harder, as he had just witnessed Jango with Boba not 10 minutes prior. 

Mij started to, discreetly, poke around. It takes him all of a week to find the chips. The slave chips embedded in the heads of babies. The babies with Jango’s face and slave chips in their heads. 

Mij has made an error. Mij.exe is also experiencing an error.

Everything is an error. 

Now Mij has a choice, and both those choices involve breaking a vow he swore so many years ago to Jaster Mereel, and later to Jango Fett. He could choose ignorance, and follow his Alor, convince himself there is a good reason for what he is seeing; pretend that there is any good reason for slave chips. And thus dooming untold children, untold babies, breaking his moral code irrevocably. Or he could choose the babies, could undermine his Alor, betray the trust that Jango had in him. Be one more person to abandon Jango, the boy that Jaster had adopted and loved. 

The choice was not an easy one, and it hurt. It hurt worse at how careful he had to be, gathering allies. The remnants of the True Mandalorians were bound by trauma and shared hell. It was excruciating, having to keep secrets, but Mij knew that not everyone would make the choice he had. Not everyone would choose the babies. He could not begrudge them, but he could not trust them either.

It took another month of wrestling with their choices before Mij and his allies, 14 other former True Mandalorians, came to a decision.  There were not enough of them to wrest control of Kamino, not enough to take the 10s of thousands of babies away and keep them safe. They debated going to the Jedi, having realized that the Jedi ordering the Clones was just another lie, but the Jedi were bound to the Republic. They could not protect or free the babies. 

There is only one group that could, politically, if not physically. One that Mij did not want to go anywhere near. Knew that he would have to give up what made him Mandalorian; that he would have to give up the Mandalore Jaster Mereel had envisioned.  By the end of the month, all 15 were in agreement that there was no other way.  

Though it took time, and careful planning, Mij makes sure to be holding a now toddler A17 when his call finally connects to Satine Kryze. He can feel her gaze slip to the baby in his arms as he pleads his case to the Duchess of the New Mandalorians. As he agrees to whatever hoops she wants them to jump through, if it would mean that the children are safe and loved. 

His Ancestors who marched ahead would be angry that he would give up their culture, but they would despise him for abandoning the babies to their fate.

[sherlockholmeshound]

whenever ppl try to come up with some version of 'romance and love isn't forbidden by the jedi, on this one novel-'

i'm just...

[azurecanary]

So if the Jedi's practice of zero attachment was what led Anakin to the Dark Side, then why didn't Obi-Wan go all Vader-y when Satine died?

Is it maybe that Obi-Wan understood the Jedi Way? And wasn't into committing genocide?