#sansan fans are the best

[fromtheseventhhell]

I will say that it’s not surprising for book Sansa fans to dislike GRRM’s writing because he doesn’t write her coherently at all, and treats her as more of a camera than anything. Not to mention he pairs her with too many much older men (I hate Sansa’s ships but GRRM clearly write Sansan as romantic). I’ve always thought that GRRM’s writing for Sansa’s chapters is some of his weakest. He doesn’t know how to handle this character. But her fans can’t admit that because then they would be admitting that the parts they love from the books is all the headcanons they made up instead of just being like “yeah I made up someone more interesting and complex because the book is weak and shallow in this area”. That’s why Sansa fans actively get offended when people bring up canon moments and canon quotes from her arc that go against the delusional metas they’ve read.

I have to agree, although for me the issue is with Sansa's characterization itself rather than the quality of writing in her chapters. I think George has done a great job with writing the plot surrounding her and she offers an interesting perspective on things, similar to how we get Catelyn's POV on Robb's war. The issue is that George expanded her role but he doesn't seem to have a solid idea of what he wants to do with her character. She hasn't become more active with her increased story presence. She does have moments that influence the plot but most of those aren't intentional and come in the form of her revealing information to the wrong person (i.e. telling Cersei of Ned's plans and Dontos of the Tyrells'). She hasn't learned or grown as much as her "peers" have and a lot of her chapters do have her used as a "camera" to show what's going on with non-POV characters. I think her character gets overshadowed by the plots she's involved in. George uses her to introduce and hide the plotting of others which is interesting to read, but it also leaves Sansa in a position where she just isn't meant to grow and learn like other characters. If we knew about, say, Littlefinger's true intentions from the very beginning then things wouldn't be as interesting.

To me, her strongest characterization was in AGOT, which makes sense because her role in that book is the one George created her for. She got to be directly contrasted with Arya and overall, I think her relationships with other characters are where we've seen her grow the most. I hate how George has written her relationships with all of these older men, but I do think her relationships with them (platonic) are an interesting showcase of her character. With Sandor and Tyrion, for example, we see Sansa confronting her shallow ideas of beauty and knighthood. With Littlefinger, he uses her as a pawn and manipulates her, but he's also teaching her and potentially handing her the tools of his own undoing. The issue is that a lot of people don't look at how she's actually written and assign her growth she doesn't have. I can understand the urge and I genuinely believe that if Sansa had the same level of growth as others, she would be one of the best characters in the books. She will undoubtedly continue to grow in the last two books but for where the fandom wants her to be, George would need to give her four books worth of development in a few chapters which seems...unlikely.

I do agree that there's an issue with her stans getting angry when confronted with the book content. I've had people get upset with me for simply mentioning that Sansa was a part of LF's plot to poison SW. Her stans want her to simultaneously be the smartest character in the books while also being the purest, most naive character in existence. If you "insult" her intelligence then you're misogynistic but saying that she knows something that she was basically outright told is also bad. A really frustrating attitude that comes from her stans being unhappy with how she's actually written in the books. I think a lot of it comes from people wanting her book plot to line up with the show, but there's just no way that's happening. The sooner her stans come to terms with that and learn to like how she's actually written, the better.

[amplifyme]

Fannish Year Review - 2023

1. Your main fandom of the year: The X-Files, Beauty and the Beast 1987, A Song of Ice and Fire (specifically SanSan). Can't narrow it down to one.

2. Your favorite film this year: Barbie. America Ferrara's monologue on the rules women are expected to follow made me laugh and then sob. Been there, trying my best to no longer do that.

You have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but also you have to be thin. You have to have money, but you can't ask for money because that's crass. You have to be a boss, but you can't be mean. You have to lead, but you can't squash other people's ideas. You're supposed to love being a mother, but don't talk about your kids all the damn time. You have to be a career woman but also always be looking out for other people.

You have to answer for men's bad behavior, which is insane, but if you point that out, you're accused of complaining. You're supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you're supposed to be a part of the sisterhood.

But always stand out and always be grateful. But never forget that the system is rigged. So find a way to acknowledge that but also always be grateful.

You have to never get old, never be rude, never show off, never be selfish, never fall down, never fail, never show fear, never get out of line. It's too hard! It's too contradictory and nobody gives you a medal or says thank you! And it turns out in fact that not only are you doing everything wrong, but also everything is your fault.

3. Your favorite book this year:  Wayward, Chuck Wendig's sequel to Wanderers. Read these! Chuck is the modern day old-school Stephen King. Not to be missed.

4. Your favorite album or song this year: Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit's Weathervanes. Every album these guys put out is better than the last, and they're all superb. Jason Isbell's lyrics are always a revelation. Best songwriter of his generation.

5. Your favorite TV shows this year:  The Last of Us. Humanity and inhumanity all wrapped up into a heartbreaking and uplifting package. Best show of the year. Long, Long Time will live with me forever.

6. Your favorite Tumblr community this year: Don't have one. I love all the different 'verses I move within.

7. Your best new fandom discovery of the year:  That's hard to say, what with the age of my favorite fandoms. They're all getting on in years, which makes new discoveries rare.

8. Your biggest fandom disappointment of the year: None, really. Well, maybe the weirdness of the SanSan fics I've seen posted lately. Hopefully that will soon pass.

9. Your TV/movie boyfriend of the year: Gotta go with Vincent from Beauty and the Beast. He never disappoints. And everything he does and why he does it is the epitome of what it is to be human. And to be alive. 🥰

10. Your TV/movie girlfriend of the year: Weird Barbie. She is me.

11. Your biggest squee moment of the year: Introducing @randomfoggytiger to the BATB universe through Nan Dibble's writing, and soon after that the show itself, and her getting it. Best feeling in the world, to bring a new fan into the fold.

I'm tagging @randomfoggytiger @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly @kateofthecanals @storybycorey @baronessblixen @littlefeatherr @enigmaticxbee @xxsksxxx @lilydalexf @ladytp @daisies-cats-and-spacemen @musingsofaquietmind @settle-down-frohike

No pressure. Only play if you want to.

[kimwexlers-brownhair]

what’s you opinion on the four satc ladies?

Keeping in mind that if they were real people I would lead them straight to the guillotine during the first wave of the revolution --

Carrie: I think it's fitting she looks a lot like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. Big treats her terribly, but it's no excuse to stalk his engagment party in practically a wedding dress or throw shit at him when he tells you not to move to Paris just for him. She's obviously addicted to drama and romance, in a far more unhinged way than Charlotte, thank you. Her projection onto Big is a terrifying example. And they end up happily ever after until he keels over?? I'd so much rather he just be arrested for a Succession-like cruise scandal, not unlike Chris Noth in real life. Team Natasha all the way, girl was lucky to escape their orbit.

Miranda: It sure sucks that she was pressured to uphold the comphet persona for so long. It made her act mousy and submissive way too often, since she wasn't naturally inclined to play the Samantha-like maneater. I'm less fond of Steve than a lot of fans. His blowing up at her making more than him was childish, and so of course was cheating on her in the movie. I suspect she settled for him because she was just tired of playing the dating men only game. That's probably a big reason why her and Steve's sex life died: "well, I did the hetero thing, got married, got a kid, bim bam boom. Onwards." Very relatable disaster of a queer woman in a world catering to the straight. She's definitely got some of the best lines on the show, and I wish she could have come out during the original.

Samantha: Flawless. No notes. "I love you, but I love me more." Fabulous. Kim Cattrall is a miracle.

Charlotte: My precious bean, my crazy-eyed WASP of a hysterical 1950s suburban nightmare Sansa, I love her more than anything. My obvious fave. The messier and more annoying she is, the more I give her my heart. Something about Kristin Davis is so intensely lovable, even if in AJLT Charlotte has some not-cute Karen moments. As Princess Weekes points out, Charlotte actually has the strongest character arc out of all of them. She and Harry are hands down my favorite couple (shades of the old SanSan fan in me rearing its head, although as I've gotten older that ship has lost some of its charm). Not to mention, she's soooo funny? And adorable? I mean:

How do you not fall in love with her?

So, in conclusion, my ratings for them go:

Charlotte

Samantha

Miranda

.

Natasha

.

Anthony

.

.

Carrie

[jackoshadows]

So as another Westeros.org veteran, I don't recall Jonsa ever being a thing on the forums pre-GOT and even after ADwD was released - at least for Jon Snow fans.

From what I recall, most Jon Snow fans who hated Dany - Apple Martini for instance - shipped Jon Snow with Val - a tertiary, non threatening character whom Jon Snow likes and at one point imagines marrying and having children with when Stannis offers him Winterfell in ASoS.

I remember being on there discussing Jon Snow - mostly his arc at the Wall, the Freefolk, prophecies, R+L=J etc. - but Sansa hardly ever came up in his threads because she didn't have much to do with his story.

Haven't been on there for a while but I am sure that even today Jonsa as a theory would be rightly laughed at and ridiculed. There were a few Sansa fans - like Rose of the Red Lake - who turned up after the TV Show and started peddling Jonsa and Dany hate and all I saw were other readers mocking her nonsense.

For Sansa fans, there was not any Dany hate going on - Dany and Sansa have nothing to do with each other in the books and so their stans mostly liked both characters or stanned for one and didn't bother much about the other. Instead most Sansa stans hated Arya - this is where Arya got twisted into some kind of dark, evil, sociopath who is destined to die and warg into Nymeria who would then become Sansa's direwolf.

SanSan was the most popular Sansa ship for and by Sansa stans on Westeros.org in those days. GRRM was more interactive with fans those days and SanSan was an acknowledged ship. I didn't talk or discuss much about the character in those days so I have no idea if she was shipped with Loras and Willas and similar types. I remember coming across Sansa/Gendry fanfic one time and being like WTF! That was the first inkling I got that Sansa was the fandom bicycle for shipping.

As they do now, back then as well Sansa stans were rewriting Sansa's relationships with Arya and Jon. Sansa and Arya were just siblings being siblings, all that bullying and betrayal is no big deal. Jon loves ALL his siblings the same. Sansa was 'subconsciously' basing her pretend bastard persona on Jon Snow - despite there being no evidence of all this in the books. They were not shipping Jonsa - just that Sansa was their favorite character and they wanted her to have the same strong sibling relationships that Arya had, they wanted her to have Arya's direwolf, Arya's narrative importance in the text etc.

[PS - Benioff and Weiss being big Sansa fans, it was not surprising they did they same thing on the TV show, appropriating Arya's subplots and narrative themes and handing them off to show Sansa.]

So as a Jon stan, there was never much discussion of Sansa. As an Arya stan her threads were full of Arya vs Sansa discourse.

Many Jon Snow Stans on Westeros.org were also house Stark stans, which included Sansa. I doubt she was ever shipped with anyone on there because she was seen as 'passive' - there were entire 'Pawn to Player' threads making up all these headcanons about how she was very smart and was going to be best political player of the series.

As a veteran of westeros.org, it's so funny that Jon and Dany being together is now considered by many as a stepdown for Jon.

Back in the day, if you suggested Jon and Dany get together, most people used to accuse you of being a rabid Jon stan trying to make him into a Gary Stu who gets everything, claims and dragons and the love of the most beautiful woman in the world.

And from my observations from then till now (my personal observation, there might be outliers), there are mainly two types of jonsa shippers that used to exist then (and evolved in number now):

1) those who are actually Sansa stans and want her to have the best guy possible. In-universe there are many great guys like Willas Tyrell, but at a narrative level, Jon is one of the big damn heroes who is also able-bodied and likely good-looking

2) A extreme type of Jon stans who really don't want Jon to get together with a woman who is his equal. On westeros.org and reddit back in the day, they used to really hate on JonxDany and their rhetoric would make it clear that it was because that would mean Dany wouldn't be the villain whom Jon will defeat and from whom he will take everything. Instead, she will be his equal or even his superior, who has equal or more narrative importance and messianic potential in the story. That they both might be Azor Ahai and not Jon alone. Many such stans much preferred Jon get together with a more "passive" and "safe" woman who would always be secondary to him and that Dany would be a villain instead.

[kateofthecanals]

Love love love love the Birdsong short film you made! One of my favourite scenes ever in the books so I was ecstatic when I found your film! I’m a big big shipper of sansan and have been since I read the books. This was so long ago, I went on the internet after I finished and was surprised by the vociferous resistance to sansan (and Sansa for that matter, people were determined to blame her for everything). I joined the fandom recently and discovered your blog and other sansan/blogs and Sansa resources and I’m so happy that there’s a loud and proud sansan community! Thank you ♥️

Awww thanks so much for the kind words about “Bird Song”, I’m glad you enjoyed it! And YAY for new SanSans!!! Welcome to our amazing little community! The SanSan fandom is literally the best and that’s not an opinion that is an objective fact! ☺️ I know it can be jarring to discover the vitriol out there directed not only at the characters and the pairing but at the fans as well. Luckily, Tumblr is a place where you can efficiently curate your fandom experience and drown out the haters. Here be a safe space to let your SanSan Flag fly! 🫡🫡🫡

[thebluelemontree]

Not a question just wanted to say how much I appreciate you and the time you take to give careful, considered answers. I love your analyses and you’ve made me appreciate asoiaf anew and reevaluate many of my initial impressions. Thank you and I hope you continue this wonderful blog ❤️

Thank you so much for this lovely message!!!! That makes me so happy that I could play a role in your enjoyment of asoiaf, my favoritest thing in the world. Trust me, this blog isn't going anywhere and, of course, I will continue to keep on blogging. Slowly, but surely, and as I find time. That's my problem. It's just hard to find time and energy these days to do all the fandom things I want to do. My drafts folder is ready to burst. I got WIPs in my google docs. I sure do appreciate your very kind words. It's very encouraging.

[jackoshadows]

It’s so weird isn’t it that they see Sansa’s canon ships as ‘punishing’ the character. If that is so then they need to take that up with the author instead of attacking readers for acknowledging her canonical ships.

The fundamental theme of ‘Beauty and The Beast’ is basically - ‘ Don’t judge a book by it’s cover’. Sansa in AGoT to even AFfC is written as a character who does judge everyone by their external appearance: Joffrey - good, Jon - jealous, Tyrion/Sandor - bad, Arya - unsatisfactory, Margaery - best sister etc.

Jory Cassell for example is a loyal captain of the household guard, there to protect them and these children grew up around him. And yet Sansa finds him lacking because of what he wears compared to the others.

Jory, Alyn, and Harwin rode for Winterfell and the north. “Jory looks a beggar among these others,” Septa Mordane sniffed when he appeared. Sansa could only agree. Jory’s armor was blue-grey plate without device or ornament, and a thin grey cloak hung from his shoulders like a soiled rag. - Sansa, AGoT

Or when she blames Arya for what happened to Lady because Joffrey was 'too beautiful to hate'.

It's a consistent theme in her plot and that's why we have the Hound with his face half burned off and Tyrion with his nose chopped off and most possibly Brienne of Tarth showing up to demonstrate to Sansa what an actual true knight looks like. What stands out in the text is the number of times GRRM refers to these characters as 'ugly' and that Sansa interacts with them in meaningful ways or will interact with them in the future. She is imagining kisses with Sandor Clegane and thinks that she would flee LF and go to Tyrion if she knew where Tyrion was.

And finally, this idea that Sansa is shipped by her haters with Sandor/Tyrion to punish her - I could not care less about Sansa, I don't ship her with anyone, I wish I could stop writing about her instead of responding to the nonsense on the Jon and Arya tags from her vapid, classist, sexist, bigoted fans espousing their neoliberal tradfem nonsense in the guise of intellectual discourse.

The only thing I do is acknowledge that the author has actually dropped in those hints of a relationship for both SanSan and Sanrion. And point that out when Jonsa shippers in particular spew their toxic shite all over the tags, twisting and mutilating Jon Snow's character into this unrecognizable OC.

Most of the backlash towards Jonsa is because it’s a Sansa ship that elevates her politically and narratively. An Arya’s stan said that Sansa falling in love with a handsome young man would ruin her arc because her arc is most definitely not about agency. No no no, Sansa’s arc is about a pretty teenage girl learning to love ugly and much older men who terrified, belittled, or tried to rape her. Sansa is always depicted by the Jonsa fandom as a female characters having the choice, being on equal ground, in her relationship with Jon. She is not a frightened little girl forced to be the nurse/emotional punching bag of an abusive, misogynistic, and bigoted man wronged by everyone here, so it must definitely rub them in the wrong way. There’s also that fact that Jonsa is a Sansa ship that doesn’t punish and degrade her for the crime of being a CHILD who always liked really feminine things, tried to be all that a lady “should be”, had sweet unrealistic dreams, and couldn’t see how harsh the real world is because of how relatively sheltered she had been.

You're right in that Jonsa as a ship definitely considers Sansa Stark. I'd argue it considers only Sansa Stark.

However, that's not all it does.

My backlash against Jonsa is because:

Jonsa completely ignores the agency/tastes/preferences/and characterization of Jon Snow to put Sansa on "equal ground" in a romantic relationship with Jon. Jonsa rewrites Jon to be a totally different character, a support character for Sansa Stark: the central character of A Song of Sansa and Sansa.

Jonsa turns Jon Snow into a garbage human in deeply misogynistic ways and completely disregards his arc all in the interest of securing Sansa's safety/desires and elevating her character. Jon is turned in Sansa Stark's Prop Prince lapdog, using his penis to sexually abuse, use, manipulate, and dispose of -- you guessed it! Dany.

And speaking of, Dany is often turned into the favourite villainous punching bag by Jonsas to play as the Disney (often braindead) evil queen to the Jonsa princess Sansa and her bodyguard husband prince Jon Snow, essentially flattening ASOIAF into a cardboard cutout fanfic fairytale Jonsas try to push as actual ASOIAF speculation.

You talk of "a pretty teenage girl learning to love ugly and much older men who terrified, belittled, or tried to rape her" yet Jonsas have discounted a 13-year old Dany being sold to and raped by a 30-year old Drogo because Dany ended up falling in love with him. If that's not bad enough, Jonsas ship a late-40s to 50 year old Euron Greyjoy with a 16-year old Dany because ViLlAin rOmAnCe. The hypocrisy is giving me a bit of a headache, sorry.

Jonsa the ship certainly will punish Arya for not being feminine or classist enough -- she's blamed for Mycah's death because she was playing with a boy below her class. She's said to not qualify for being a Lady or Lady of Winterfell because she's not ladylike enough or not "class conscious" enough. She's eliminated from any romance arc or having children of her own because she's not conventionally feminine. Jonsas punish Dany for her Targaryen bloodline, claiming Dany is a "blood purist" when she was overjoyed to carry her half-Dothraki baby and dreamed of his birth; has a Tyroshi lover; married a Meereenese noble. Where are Dany's blood purist thoughts again? That Targaryens have "madness" in her blood.

Some alarming views on femininity.

There’s also that fact that Jonsa is a Sansa ship that doesn’t punish and degrade her for the crime of being a CHILD who always liked really feminine things, tried to be all that a lady “should be”, had sweet unrealistic dreams, and couldn’t see how harsh the real world is because of how relatively sheltered she had been.

Nice strawman. Nobody is disliking Sansa because she's feminine or because she was dreamy. There are other feminine, girly characters in this series who don't draw the ire Sansa does. Those who dislike Sansa dislike her because of some character traits she demonstrates. The bullying behaviours she demonstrated toward Arya, the lack of concern she demonstrated toward Arya, the classism with which she viewed the world (looking down on Jon for his bastardy, looking down on bastards and smallfolk in general, looking down on Mycah). Sansa does hold to Westerosi's prejudices, which can be hard to take at times. These are canonical traits Sansa has.

Sansa is also fairly superficial sometimes and doesn't demonstrate a great care or concern for the people (ie. planning a gigantic feast while the country starves) so it's frustrating when Sansa stans and Jonsas try to push Sansa as the ideal, caring queen and leader while bashing Dany, Jon, and others to prop Sansa up. Characters who have real leadership experience in a series where leadership is meant to be difficult and truly explored.

And just a reminder: Jon, Arya, Bran, and Rickon grew up in the same home Sansa did, just as sheltered. They've been facing how harsh the real world has been from day 1.

[thesilentsisterspodcast]

Look at our SUPER ADORABLE silent sister logo art by the FABULOUS @mundongo​ !!! 

We just love her sassy expression and her cute little mic and headphones! 

[mllekaren]

Thank you!

To all the Sansan fanartists and fanfic-writers (old and new) that appear on my dash.

It is greatly needed, especially this week. Like a balm to my heart.

[elegantwoes]

I don’t like Jonsa, I headcanon Sansa as a lesbian, but I really like Jonsa shippers and I follow a lot of them because they’re respectful and accepting plus they genuinely like Sansa & don’t like pedo ships.

I am glad you like us despite not shipping Jonsa yourself, dear anon. Like the previous anon said, there’s a major difference between a Sansa fan who doesn’t ship Jonsa because it’s incest and Jonsa antis. I appreciate and respect my fellow Sansa fans who don’t ship Jonsa because you guys are consistent. You guys don’t want either the pedo ships or Jonsa. The majority of the Jonsa antis aren’t like that. Their dislike of Jonsa is rooted in their hatred for Sansa rather than an aversion to incest, even worse, they often ship Sansan & Sanrion. They hate Jonsa because to them Jon wouldn’t humble Sansa enough like Sandor and Tyrion. There’s a reason why both those ships are popular among Sansa haters. 

[thebluelemontree]

Thank you so much for your generosity, @kimberlite8​, and sharing this beautiful artwork with the Sansan fandom in the spirit of the season! You are a lovely soul and deserve all the good things. :) MWUAH!

As usual, Bubug just killed it! We are so lucky to have such an incredible artist in the fandom. I’m speechless at how gorgeous this is! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Happy Yule, happy solstice and happy Christmas, Sansan fandom! This is the holiday card I commissioned from Bubug. I sent out 51 cards this year to Sansan fandom across the Americas, Europe, India and Australia. Hope you enjoy receiving yours and it gave you the sense of community that it gave me.

I'm looking forward to the end of the Trump presidency, the rollout of the COVID vaccine and the return to normalcy. Wishing you all safety, the lessening of struggle and a little bit of light as we transition to 2021.

[hisyetisgirl]

Sansan fanfic authors...

*taps screen* Due to the influx of new stories, writers, updates & posts... I'm a bit behind on my reading! I hope to get caught up soon! I feel giddy & excited to have such a dilemma... 🤭 Thank you, thank you for all you do! ❤️

[thebluelemontree]

Look at this lovely Sandor Clegane / Peter Steele headcanon edit from @mermaid-reverie​!!! Brilliant work! (posted with permission)

[branwendaughterofllyr]

branwen please share with us some more BNFs/JoLa tea ☕️ thank you kindly x

I’m probably going to regret this but I couldn’t resist lol.

I actually feel bad for a lot of the BNFs, including JoLa. The end of GoT wasn’t really fun for most of them, and most of them have left the fandom. JoLa has pretty much abandoned her tumblr, and good for her honestly. I think she’s a very silly, even over sensitive person, but she genuinely believed that she was going to be right. She hates being called a BNF and denies she ever was one, which is par for the course for her. She would alternate between denying she was invested in jonerys as a ship and commissioning jonerys fanart.

Her takes on Dany were honestly pretty hilarious in their tone deafness, which led to a lot of joking about her in my circle. She was really, really into Tyrion, which, uh, okay. The “curtain of light” theory has become pretty infamous now, and I cannot emphasize enough how seriously it was taken by some of the BNFs on tumblr. Big BNF poorquentyn (is he still around? Didn’t he convert to Jonsa at one point?) responded a lot to JoLa and nobodysuspectsthebutterfly back in the day.

I’ve screenshotted some of my favorite posts, most of which are from like 2015-2018.

I mean come on, Dany and Jon bang and have baby Drogo to save the world beyond the curtain of light? SPECTACULAR. I wish I was on those drugs.

And it’s amazing because on one hand I’m like “yes! The power of love as humanity’s greatest strength is a theme of ASOIAF!” And on the other hand I’m like “and where do Dany and Tyrion come into this at all????”

Beloved, read a single Sam chapter, I’m begging.

My personal favorite is how she justifies Dany ditching Meereen after she’s wrecked the place. Look, slavery was an inherently unsustainable system, and Dany did everyone a favor by wrecking everything and then flinching off.

Which, like yes, Dany did a good thing by trying to end slavery but also it’s a millennia old system??? It’s pretty stable, and Dany hasn’t really done a great job implementing change, and things are going to be way worse after she leaves, and any positive changes aren’t going to come at her hands. (and also has she really ended slavery? really, really?)

The Titanic comparison????? AMAZING. 

Dany is the lifeboat come to save the entire world. 

The best part is by far the tags

NEVER SAY THE BNFS DIDN’T GIVE US ANYTHING.

I loved these tags so much that one of the lovelies on the Jonsa discord made me this back in the day.

SHE’s SHOOTING STAR<3

THERE ONE MOMENT, GONE THE NEXT BUT FOREVER WONDEROUS TO BEHOLD

Who needs permanent political change, long lasting growth, and tree planting when you could have her <3

She can’t stay and actually fix any problems, she has a continent to set on fire and a curtain of light to fuck under. 

It’s crazy how such wildly different interpretations can come about from the same text, and it’s rather satisfying to me personally that I am in fact not crazy and what I was seeing the narrative is actually there.

The Tyrion humping and the refusal to acknowledge that maybe magic nukes bad actually are what cracked me up to no end.

Yes, the real enemy is the cold, but also maybe Fire and Blood is not the end-all be-all solution???? Like, just think about it for more than five seconds. Did the chapters about the destructiveness of fire mean nothing to you? Did WF, the home of the heroes at the heart of the story, going up in flames ring no bells???? Did Arya’s escape from a fire described like a dragon, where she desperately kissed the mud when she realized she was still alive not set off any alarms???? Literally anything that has to with trees??? No? Okay.

I cannot even begin to unravel her Bran takes, so I’m not going to try. 

And lest I forget, JoLa also supported Sansan and even Creepyfinger at various points, sooooooo. I took her assertions that she’s a big Sansa fan with a pile of salt.

But nobody go harass JoLa’s account please. The only reason I’m talking about this is because it was literally years ago at this point, and she’s moved on and I’m reminiscing about the horrible old days. JoLa was actually a pretty civil and nice person (I think it was nobodywhosuspectsthebutterfly who was the combative one), if very silly and wrong. 

[supernovadragoncat]

I wanted to ask you about this since I find you to be one of the more understanding people in this fandom... I'm not writer but I can't help but feel these pointed comments about dark fics (BTW: not talking about Littlefeather's posts; 100% think she's right and fully support her decision) can discourage and alienate writers and readers who do enjoy reading fucked up dynamics and themes. I don't want to enter a fandom that is already made out to be some 'freak fandom' by the larger ASOIAF fandom only to find people lowkey judging others for enjoying darker aspects of an admittedly fucked up canon ship, you get me? I feel like there's SOME policing going on and I just don't see the need to look down on people for enjoying these fics if they are properly tagged or make these little comments about how we somehow we don't truly get the dynamics. Sometimes I want to read about Sandor being a creepy stalker and sometimes I want to read about Sandor having a secret affair with his Queen lol. Why limit the pool? Am I being sensitive?

Hi Sweet Nonny!

First of all, you’re not being sensitive at all. There will always be a place for you and everyone in this fandom. I don’t mean that in a kumbaya way. I mean that in the sense that fandom and shipping should be a fun and enjoyable experience. It shouldn’t be mired in negative feelings. Not for you, not me, not for people who like drastically different things. No one.

Your preferences and triggers, the things that make you squeal with delight and the things that make you “nope” out immediately—they are all valid. Everyone deserves to feel included and safe to explore this ship however they like. That doesn’t mean, of course, we all align, but just that there’s a spirit of respect and understanding extended to others, whether or not they enjoy the same flavors of the ship.

I'll put the rest under the cut since I've apparently written you a novella, but I want to say that I value you in fandom, whoever you are, and thank you for coming to me with this ask! ❤️

The topic of dark content versus light content is one where I do honestly see both sides of the discussion. This is also a complicated discussion because it’s not just a matter of preferences, but very often there needs to be parallel discussions about triggering content as well as kink shaming. That’s where it can get unwieldy—trying balance these facets in a fair and reasoned way.

When discussions of fandom trends come up, it can create a sense that parts of fandom are being ostracized. I empathize with that feeling and I have felt it when these topics are raised. When you’re on the receiving end of “why is this trend/thing happening in fandom?”, it can feel like your preferences are being policed or that you’ve been voted off the island, so to speak.

In 2013/14, there was the great Sandor woobification debate where the fandom tendency to show the softer side of Sandor was hotly debated. After Game of Thrones brought in a lot of new fans in 2011 and 2012, there was the show!sansan vs. book!sansan debate. There were many debates about “how sexy is too sexy?” re: Sandor headcanons (there was bearded insta-thotty Sandor; then that time when several of us fell down a WWE rabbit hole). The rise of Modern AUs. The debates about dark fic and kinks.

All of these were discussions where people undoubtedly--myself included in more than a few--felt like they were not shipping “correctly.” Of course, that’s silly. It’s a ship. You can do whatever you want as long as you’re kind and you tag things properly, which most people are and do. And yet, the best of intentions can still go awry.

In these discussions, sometimes the topic becomes a monolith where, for example, something like Dark Fic™️ encompasses not just the content itself but the writers, readers, and artists who exist in that part of fandom. I think most of the time this isn’t intentional but is where the discussion can become hurtful. This is why Littlefeather’s post was so bang on—it tactfully decoupled the creator/consumers from the content itself, such that there were no value judgements being passed.

If I can offer a perspective from the flip side, imagine you’re scrolling the sansan tag on AO3 and you see an influx of sansan fics that are tooth-rotting fluff or domestic bliss sansan. If this isn’t your jam, it’s perhaps, at worst, annoying or eyeroll-inducing. However, imagine you’re scrolling the sansan AO3 tag and you see an influx of darker fics, especially fics that deal with a topic that is triggering to you. Even if you don’t click on the fic, it very well could still elicit a feeling that the ship isn't a safe space anymore or a general sense of unease.

My point here is that this topic is more complicated than just “don’t like, scroll on” or “dead dove, don’t eat.” Triggers are deeply personal and many times don’t manifest in ways that make sense or are predictable. This is why I personally espouse the mantra of “better to tag liberally than not enough, spoilers be damned” for dark fic.

“…Only to find people lowkey judging others for enjoying darker aspects of an admittedly fucked up canon ship, you get me?”

I get you completely and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head of what the divergences really boil down to.

First of all, no one—I don’t care how long they’ve shipped sansan—gets to lay claim to understanding the dynamic better than anyone else. Only GRRM gets to say that and, 10+ years from the last ASOIAF book, I’m not even sure he gets to say that anymore.

Everyone is drawn to this ship for their own reasons. For some, the darker aspects drew them in—a deeply traumatized man and a girl whose dreams were ground to dust. For others, the canon dynamics are fascinating from a psychological perspective. For some, it’s the BaTB dynamic. For others, it’s envisioning a happier, kinder future for two characters who’ve suffered so much.

There are many sansan shipers who are or were victims of abuse, domestic violence, and/or sexual assault and something about the ship is their way of working through the trauma. Someone once said that they were drawn to the ship because Sandor was the type of protector they wish they’d had when they were being abused. As the saying goes, you never know what battle someone is fighting or has just survived but is still healing from. Fandom may very well be their port in the storm.

However you ended up here, it’s valid. There isn’t a VIP entrance to this ship. We all get here how we get here, and it doesn’t really matter other than it’s cool that this ship means different things to different people. That should be cause for celebration, not division.

When there are people who come to this ship to escape dark things that’ve happened in their life or just to enjoy the love and romance, it’s probably hard to understand why some of us like and want to explore the darker, angstier side of the ship.

When you like and are attracted to the ship because of the complicated, fucked up aspects (I think we can all acknowledge the fucked-up parts of canon sansan), it can feel a bit disingenuous when others are baffled that this ship attracts people who appreciate the darker side.

Whichever side of the ship you like, you don’t need to explain yourself. You don’t need to justify to anyone why you enjoy what you enjoy. This is especially true of the darker side, which can be subjected to kink shaming. If you like creepy stalker Sandor, you never need to explain why you do and why that's valid. If you write creepy stalker Sandor fic, you don’t need to justify yourself to earn your place in fandom. If someone doesn’t like it, there are 4,000+ fics in the tag. I’m sure they’ll find something they like or they can write the fic they want to read.

Fandom dies without diversity. We need diversity of voices, interpretation of the ship, the identities and histories we all bring to the table, tropes, headcanons, themes. If we have one flavor, guess what? No one’s coming to the popsicle stand. It's amazing that the fandom keeps trucking on with the absolute breadcrumbs GRRM and GOT has given us. I credit that to fandom diversity and a willingness to accept new approaches to the ship.

Write shamelessly what you want to write (just tag it). Read shamelessly what you want to read. Draw shamelessly what you want to draw. Podcast shamelessly what you want to podcast. You get the idea...

If anyone intentionally makes you feel bad about it, block and carry on. I strongly believe in creating a bubble in fandom to exist in if you need to.

I hope this helped, nonny, and my ask box is open to you or anyone, anytime. Take care of yourself! Much love to you. ❤️

[thebluelemontree]

Couple of things: 

Hi! To the anon who sent me an ask last week, I will answer today after I get home. Things have been crazy with work.

Over the last couple of days, Kallielef got a pretty nasty wave of anti harassment and accusations of you know what over on Twitter. Kallie is one of the sweetest and most talented people in the Sansan fandom, and we’re extremely lucky to have her. It’s laughable when they try to say drawing characters as consenting adults is still you know what. Kallie only draws romantic content between obvious adult characters, and she doesn’t even do anything too risque; however, they dug up one particular piece of art with a very young Sansa that was taken entirely out of context and tried to use that as proof. And the context of that art was for a protector!Sandor AU where Sandor serves the Starks and had nothing to do with shipping at all. 

I really hope that kinda thing doesn’t get her too discouraged about posting her Sansan art. Today, my queue is full of Kallielef’s work because it’s awesome, it’s always worth reblogging, and I just wanted to show a little love and support.