#robert norberton

[no-side-us]

Letters From Watson Liveblog - Nov. 3

Shoscombe Old Place, Part 2 of 2

I like that even though Holmes and Watson aren't actually there to go fishing, they still brought a bunch of fishing equipment to sell the story. I'm also going to imagine they didn't buy anything new and it's all stuff from previous fishing trips.

Watson, you've seen, met, and grappled with countless murderers of all kinds in your time with Holmes, so why would it be so hard to believe that Norberton here has killed his own sister?

I feel like this confirms they've been on previous fishing trips before. And I know it's the early 1900s, but I can't help but imagine them in generic fishing gear. I'm talking bucket hats, vests with too many pockets, cargo shorts, etc.

I love Holmes' appreciation for dogs. Also, I guess this means Lady Beatrice probably has been killed, or imprisoned in some way if she's not actually going out anymore.

Nevermind. This story reminds me of those people who pretend their deceased relatives are still alive so they can collect on said relatives' pensions or other payments. Admittedly, it is very grim of him to move his sister's dead body and have someone pretend to be her. But hey, he didn't kill anyone, so that's cool.

I'm surprised that Holmes isn't being more lenient considering he did so with actual murderers before. Maybe the indecency of it all is too much, and Norberton doesn't exactly have a sympathetic reason for anything, he's just in debt.

And Norberton's fine. Overall, this was a pretty funny story in retrospect, in a morbid sort of way. All the shenanigans of moving a dead body, then hiding it in a crypt (which is pretty smart) but then having another dead body to hide. Having a dog take constant notice, needing an actor to pretend to be the deceased, etc. It's humorous, and I had a good time with it.

Part 1 - Part 2

[faithful-grigori]

”#honestly the desecration of the dead is not a huge value for me but this seems like bs”

[elinordash]

SHERLOCK HOLMES (1984 - 1994) ↳ 5x03 | Shoscombe Old Place

Mr. Holmes, I think Sir Robert Norberton has gone mad.

[mariana-oconnor]

Shoscombe Old Place full

First of all, in my head this story is either called Shoscombe Old Spot*, and is about pigs, or Is a repeat of the Boscombe Valley Mystery. I cannot call it the right name to save my life.

This is all I am going to see for every character in this story. I apologise in advance.

*There is a type of pig called a Gloucester Old Spot.

Sherlock Holmes had been bending for a long time over a low-power microscope. Now he straightened himself up and looked round at me in triumph.

"Since I ran down that coiner by the zinc and copper filings in the seam of his cuff they have begun to realize the importance of the microscope.”

And 100 years later it would be used in flashy, edited montages of pretty forensic scientists also identifying glue and threads from a tweed coat.

"Watson, you know something of racing?” “I ought to. I pay for it with about half my wound pension.”

Did Mary die, or did she throw him out for his gambling addiction and they both agreed to pretend the other was dead because it's Victorian Britain?

“It was when he horsewhipped Sam Brewer, the well-known Curzon Street money-lender, on Newmarket Heath. He nearly killed the man.” “Ah, he sounds interesting! Does he often indulge in that way?”

I would call that neither interesting, nor indulging, but you do you, I guess.

Sir Robert Norberton. Sounds like a great guy.

"He should have been a buck in the days of the Regency—a boxer, an athlete, a plunger on the turf, a lover of fair ladies, and, by all account, so far down Queer Street that he may never find his way back again.”

That took a distinct turn for the unexpected at the end there. Quite the euphemism there. Apparently it just means he has money problems (presumably because of being a horrible person and a gambler) but the joys of linguistic evolution strike again.

Is he... far down Queer Street, or has he just gone a few steps?

“There are the Shoscombe spaniels,” said I. “You hear of them at every dog show. The most exclusive breed in England. They are the special pride of the lady of Shoscombe Old Place.”

The spaniels are now also pigs in my brain. Everything is pigs. It's actually a long con that Lady Beatrice has been pulling for years. 'Most exclusive breed' = they're actually pigs in disguise.

...the firm, austere expression which is only seen upon those who have to control horses or boys.

This absolutely made me laugh. Excellent description.

“First of all, Mr. Holmes, I think that my employer, Sir Robert, has gone mad.”

Really? How could you tell? He seems like such a level-headed and calm person with absolutely no emotional issues whatsoever.

No really, how could you tell?

“Well, sir, when a man does one queer thing, or two queer things, there may be a meaning to it, but when everything he does is queer, then you begin to wonder."

😐😐😐

They did say he was pretty far down Queer Street, my dude. That's probably what the issue is.

This story is already one of the most unintentionally hilarious we've read. I hope it doesn't end with the deaths of horses or children. Or some woman marrying the abusive arsehole. That would ruin the joy.

And ah, we have reached the casual antisemitism. Because of course we have. Money lenders were mentioned, clearly there was going to be some.

"Then there is his conduct to Lady Beatrice!” “Ah! What is that?” “They have always been the best of friends. They had the same tastes, the two of them"

Does she also enjoy whipping people almost to death? Family dinners must be a riot!

“And a bitter, savage, spiteful quarrel at that. Why else would he give away her pet spaniel that she loved as if he were her child?"

"But then, again, what is master doing down at the old church crypt at night? And who is the man that meets him there?”

...I mean... Do we really want to get into that?

There's a haunted crypt? Excellent. Ghost pigs abound.

"So we up when Sir Robert was gone and pretended we were just having a walk like in the moonlight..."

Just a casual moonlit bro walk at midnight in the hook-up graveyard. Like bros.

What even is this story? I don't need to provide commentary, it's all in the text (apart from the pigs).

‘Hullo, mate! who may you be?’ says I. I guess he had not heard us coming, so he looked over his shoulder with a face as if he had seen the devil coming out of hell.

You were in the haunted graveyard. He thought you were a fucking ghost my friend. And if he didn't, he should have done and I will be very annoyed.

"From Dr. Watson's description of Sir Robert I can realize that no woman is safe from him."

Or man. Or non-binary person.

“No, sir, and there is something more that I can't fit in. Why should Sir Robert want to dig up a dead body?”

I feel... like you could have opened with the grave robbery? Maybe. Could be important. Seems relevant, if not to the case as a whole then just to... general interest, honestly.

If he dug up a grave at the haunted hook-up graveyard on Queer Street, man's going to be haunted by all the queerest ghosts. It's going to be Queer Eye for a Live Guy all over that place. Though I suspect Sr Robert is beyond their undead assistance.

"It was all in order, sir, except that in one corner was a bit of a human body.”

A bit... Which bit?

"It was just the head and a few bones of a mummy. It may have been a thousand years old."

Oh wow, is this the thing where people ate mummies for their health or something? There was a massive fad where people were just like 'I guess eating this person who is dead will stop me from dying, that makes logical sense and isn't disgusting at all' nom nom nom. Please tell me one of these people is a cannibal. Not like cannibalism yay, obviously, but that's pretty much the last thing this story needs to become completely epic.

"The creature was howling outside the old well-house, and Sir Robert was in one of his tantrums that morning. He caught it up, and I thought he would have killed it. Then he gave it to Sandy Bain, the jockey, and told him to take the dog to old Barnes at the Green Dragon, for he never wished to see it again.”

Ways in which Sir Robert Norberton is better than Sir Eustace of The Abbey Grange fame: instead of covering the dog in petrol and setting it on fire, Sir Robert just sent it away. The bar is so incredibly low for Holmesian villains.

Also, there was something in the old well-house. Probably a horse. Dog was giving it away so dog had to go.

But he didn't kill the dog. So proud. He can whip men half to death, but he draws the line at hurting dogs, apparently.

“It's the upper condyle of a human femur,” said I.

Hey. Look! Watson did a doctor thing! And it wasn't brandy.

And now they're going undercover.

Part 2

"...refuses to stop at the stables to greet her favourite horse..."

This makes me feel like it's not her favourite horse. We've already been told the horse has a doppelganger. Did the real horse die and now he's got a problem because all his money is on the horse winning the race, but he's only got the rubbish one? Or was there only ever one horse in the first place and it's rubbish? But the bone is a human femur, or so Watson says.

"Let us suppose, Watson—it is merely a scandalous supposition, a hypothesis put forward for argument's sake—that Sir Robert has done away with his sister.”

Did not see that coming. I think I missed that no one at all had seen her other than the maid. I guess it makes sense because if she dies, the estate goes to someone else and then he has no money at all. I have been distracted by horses.

Though the fact that Holmes is saying this implies to me that it's not the case. On the other hand, this is only a two parter, so there can't be that much more plot to go.

“My dear Holmes, it is out of the question.” “Very possibly, Watson. Sir Robert is a man of an honourable stock."

There is so much wrong with this exchange, I don't know where to start.

"Never mind me. I shall stand behind this holly-bush and see what I can see.”

By which you mean whether the 'spaniel' wants to go to its mistress.

Aw, he's such a good boy.

Then they stop in the suspected murder investigation to have a fishing day. That's the thing about the Holmes stories. ACD isn't afraid to say 'and there was nothing that could be done right then so we just had a jolly day out'. Crime fighting is such a leisurely business.

“‘Fore God, Mr. Holmes, it's all right,” said he. “Appearances are against me, I'll admit, but I could act no otherwise.”

A surprisingly reasonable response here from the man that we have been repeatedly told by multiple people likes to punch first and ask questions never.

"Mrs. Norlett, under her maiden name of Evans, has for some years been my sister's confidential maid."

The maid is married!? and her husband's a character?! That Sir Robert knows?! Plot twist!

So she died of natural causes. That's kind of nice. If it wasn't for all the antisemitism, this one would be pretty good.

Except for how the violent gambling addict magically makes good in the end and turns out not to be so bad after all. Though I suppose I should be happy he turned his life around. Maybe a little anticlimactic, but it's a good twist that I didn't see coming because I was too busy thinking of horses.

And pigs.

[monocordum]

Well, there's this suspect, Sir Robert Norberton, who's SO FAR DOWN QUEER STREET, and EVERYTHING HE DOES IS QUEER, and he never married but it's JUST AS WELL, considering his PROSPECTS--there's no way he's not up to something, isn't it, Holmes?

Out of context, and a bit anticlimactic as far as last stories go.

(From The Adventure of Shoscombe Old Place, April 1927 issue of The Strand)

[amypihcs]

Hello my friends! Shoscombe old place, by pure coincidence also the granada episode i'll show to my GF tonight! Let's see what our favourite victorian husbands are doing!

Microscope stuff! aaaaaa i miss the lab! I have a feel that we'll have some really competent Watson in this story! Also, Holmes just projecting a conversation with Watson in his mind and finally replying aloud. It's so cute!

Now in fact Holmes explains, he's doing a favour to a policeman who's a friend, so nice! But NOW is he coming?

I hate it, when people are late! Feeling for you, Holmes! Now, time to make good use of your husband's knowledge! Now he's your handy guide to the turf! Holmes gave Watson a little kissy here!

They go over Mr Robert Norberton and the place he lives in, Watson does know it and yep! He gives his hubby a nice thumbnail of the man. FINALLY, the client!

yes, sit down, and now EXPLAIN. I don't like you. You explained little in your letter and also got here late.

My man. You're talking to queer.jpeg. Holmes' sarcasm is deserved. I love this scene in the granada serie, lol! Holmes turning to Watson, who mouths the word 'horse'. It's FANTASTIC!

You kidding? OF COURSE it won't go beyond the room. Give it a couple of years and it'll end up in the Strand! So -clears throat- yes. Guy NEEDS to win this race. Got it. And is this driving him crazy?

LMAO, You're talking to SHERLOCK HOLMES. Wasn't it for his husband, he would sleep a night yes and two no! WAIT! Mistreating his sis? -growl-

GAVE AWAY HER DOG??? And she, old lady with a bad heart, took to DRINKING?? Maaan, as we say in italy, qua c'è qualquadra che non cosa.

AND AN OLD CRYPT?

Holmes, you're already vibrating, stop, please. Calm down, i get that you're starting to like him, but some bit of control! Now back to the case

Ah. Eh! AAh.

This is an entire conversation. And how i would deal with such a bomb. Well, they start making theories, but the visit doesn't want to fit!

Well, time to light my favorite pipe! -groan- No, Holmes, PLEASE. Not that! -puff puff puff-

-pu.. COUGH COUGH- BONE?? Where did you get it? Well, dear doc, examine that, if you please, darling?

I LOVE COMPETENT WATSON SO MUCH! And so does Holmes! Well, deep and dirty waters. Indeed. Well, at least it wasn't sir Robert, the one burning corpses -phew-

Well, Mr Mason...

W-what? Mr Holmes? -Watson trying not to die of laughter in background-

Ah, perfect!

We coming then, up for a lil trip, Watson? You love fishing! Bye mr Mason, we shall get in touch with you!

[thefisherqueen]

I fell a bit behind on Letters from Watson, time to read Shoscombe old place today! :)

Sherlock Holmes had been bending for a long time over a low-power microscope. Now he straightened himself up and looked round at me in triumph. 'Holmes is not human' confirmed, but only in the sense that it is inhuman to be bend over for a long time without developing extreme back pain

“Is it one of your cases?” “No; my friend, Merivale, of the Yard, asked me to look into the case. I don't know if it just my terrible memory for names, but Merivale does not sound familiar. Which is a bit odd, a 'friend' of Holmes we don't yet know. Also strange that Watson is referring to this case as 'your case'. As a result, this case feels rather old? Like it happened long ago, when Holmes and Watson were much less intimate

Actually, more things point in that direction. Like Watson receiving a wound persion

Norberton nearly came within your province once.” “How was that?” “It was when he horsewhipped Sam Brewer, the well-known Curzon Street money-lender, on Newmarket Heath. He nearly killed the man.” “Ah, he sounds interesting! Deranged reaction from Holmes here. I love it. Also, being almost beat to death with a horsewhip sounds extremely painful. Definitely a sadist at work here. Probably only got away with this torturous attack because the dude's rich

And here, I expect, is the man who can tell us.” The door had opened and the page had shown in a tall, clean-shaven man with the firm, austere expression which is only seen upon those who have to control horses or boys. Very amused by the implication that boys behave just like horses. Also slightly bewildered by the sudden appearance of a page. Whom makes up the domestic staff of this household? We've seen occasional references to a page, maid and cook, but they pop up so irregulary that it seems like mrs. Hudson employs them to only almost immediately sack them

He bowed with cold self-possession Watson what does that mean??

“First of all, Mr. Holmes, I think that my employer, Sir Robert, has gone mad.” Holmes raised his eyebrows. “This is Baker Street, not Harley Street,” said he. From wikipedia: "Since the 19th century, the number of doctors, hospitals, and medical organisations in and around Harley Street has greatly increased. Records show that there were around 20 doctors in 1860, 80 by 1900, and almost 200 by 1914."

He thinks of nothing but the horse and the race. His whole life is on it. He's holding off the Jews till then. If the Prince fails him he is done. Always charming, jewish people being referred one to one as money loaners. I guess that makes the Robert's attack on Sam Brewer antisemitistic in nature

And she takes it to heart. She is brooding and sulky and drinking, Mr. Holmes—drinking like a fish. A large part of why I love reading older books and books not written in my native language. Expressions are sometimes so suprising and delightful - drinking like a fish is so vivid

It's all changed, Mr. Holmes, and there is something damned rotten about it. But then, again, what is master doing down at the old church crypt at night? And who is the man that meets him there?” Holmes rubbed his hands. “Go on, Mr. Mason. You get more and more interesting.” Excited autistic hand rubbing time again! :)

So, in summary, so far we've got a man who's violent, mistreats his sister, creeps around at night on some secret business, is severely in debt and utterly reliant on one outcome of a gamble to solve his financial problems. Sounds like a good cocktail for a major interferrence plot to secure the gambling outcome. Torture, murder and abduction not excluded from the possiblities

It was on that second night. Sir Robert turned and passed us—me and Stephens, quaking in the bushes like two bunny-rabbits, for there was a bit of moon that night. This makes such a good image

“There is her maid, Carrie Evans. She has been with her this five years.” “And is, no doubt, devoted?” Mr. Mason shuffled uncomfortably. “She's devoted enough,” he answered at last. “But I won't say to whom.” “Ah!” said Holmes. “I can't tell tales out of school.” I will forever be amazed by the amount of vagueness one can employ and yet for it still be understood as saying 'my master is fucking the maid'. Such creativity

We can't fit that into our plot.” “No, sir, and there is something more that I can't fit in. Why should Sir Robert want to dig up a dead body?” Holmes sat up abruptly. Way to drop a plot twist, my man

“What is the name of that inn you spoke of?” “The Green Dragon.” “Is there good fishing in that part of Berkshire?” The honest trainer showed very clearly upon his face that he was convinced that yet another lunatic had come into his harassed life. Lol. That poor man. I'm getting my hopes up for another cozy inn scene, it feels like a while ago we were treated to some good, intimate Holmes/Watson room sharing

Thus it was that on a bright May evening Holmes and I found ourselves alone in a first-class carriage So I read this fic on AO3 where Holmes and Watson also were alone in a first class carriage and they - ok, nevermind, my AO3 history is between me and my browser only

“Let us consider our data. The brother no longer visits the beloved invalid sister. He gives away her favourite dog. Her dog, Watson! Does that suggest nothing to you?” “Nothing but the brother's spite.” “Well, it might be so. Or—well, there is an alternative. Hm, let me do a poor attempt at considering the data. My best guess is that the brother - sir Robert - wants the dog out of the way for something. What do dogs do? They dig things up and like bones, which might be inconvient if you're digging up dead bodies? They bark when strangers enter the grounds at night? Considering that a stranger did enter the grounds, it might be just that Robert was concerned about the dog raising alarm on that

“But the crypt?” “Ah, yes, the crypt! Let us suppose, Watson—it is merely a scandalous supposition, a hypothesis put forward for argument's sake—that Sir Robert has done away with his sister.” Ok that does make more sense as to why the dog had to go! Of course, a dog would not be fooled by an impersonator. Nor would a horse

My dear Holmes :) :) :)

So the stranger who Mr. Mason saw was the one who's now impersonating the sister, I gather. Gods, the 'man in dress for means of evil deception' trope is old

“How far is this crypt from the house?” asked Holmes.“A good quarter of a mile.” “Then I think we can disregard him altogether.” “I can't afford to do that, Mr. Holmes. The moment he arrives he will want to see me to get the last news of Shoscombe Prince.” “I see! In that case we must work without you, Mr. Mason. You can show us the crypt and then leave us.” Always love Watson and Holmes sneaking around at night

“But why in the world would anyone want to burn the bones of a man who has been dead a thousand years?” asked John Mason. “That is what we are here to find out,” said Holmes. “It may mean a long search, and we need not detain you. I fancy that we shall get our solution before morning.” Are they actually going to open up coffins? That is some gothic shit and I'm here for it

Then, as Holmes returned no answer, he took a couple of steps forward and raised a heavy stick which he carried. “Do you hear me?” he cried. “Who are you? What are you doing here?” His cudgel quivered in the air. But instead of shrinking Holmes advanced to meet him. “I also have a question to ask you, Sir Robert,” he said in his sternest tone. “Who is this? And what is it doing here?” First: oops. Second: Holmes, for your own and Watson's sake, please avoid becoming the next corpse in that crypt

“How came you to know of this?” he cried. And then, with some return of his truculent manner: “What business is it of yours?” “My name is Sherlock Holmes,” said my companion. “Possibly it is familiar to you. In any case, my business is that of every other good citizen—to uphold the law. It seems to me that you have much to answer for.” Holmes' confrontations just are the best. Imagine being this large man with a fearsome reputation, pulling a weapon upon a stranger you find in your own crypt at night, and he just calmly confronts you with what filth he has dug about you. Scary levels of confidence there. I would be taken aback too

“‘Fore God, Mr. Holmes, it's all right,” said he. “Appearances are against me, I'll admit, but I could act no otherwise.” Wondering what excuse this violent villain will come up with

“Well, Sir Robert,” said Holmes, rising, “this matter must, of course, be referred to the police. It was my duty to bring the facts to light, and there I must leave it. Glad that Holmes will not hush up this case. That man may not have murdered his sister, but everything else he did was still out of all bounds, and only done for purely selfish reasons

It is generally known now that this singular episode ended upon a happier note than Sir Robert's actions deserved. (...) Both police and coroner took a lenient view of the transaction, and beyond a mild censure for the delay in registering the lady's decease, the lucky owner got away scatheless from this strange incident in a career which has now outlived its shadows and promises to end in an honoured old age. A rather dissapointing ending to this story, in my opinion. I guess that 'debts should not bring about personal ruin' is a rad point, just as 'don't believe all scandalous gossip', but all the rest just reads like the result of class privilege. Looking for actual work instead of just gambling to gain his own income was of course not even considered. His near deadly attack on Sam Brewer was not adressed, nor are his violent ways. Possibly Doyle considered this a realistic outcome in his time? I love, however, that both Holmes and Watson still made their contempt for this man clear

[kierrasreads]

The Adventure of the Shoscombe Old Place (The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes #11) by Arthur Conan Doyle Review

Plot

Head trainer John Mason from Shoscombe Old Place, a racing stable in Berkshire, comes to Holmes about his master, Sir Robert Norberton. Mason thinks he has gone mad. Sir Robert's sister, Lady Beatrice Falder, owns Shoscombe, but it will revert to her late husband's brother when she dies.

The stable has a horse, Shoscombe Prince, who Sir Robert hopes will win the Derby. He would be out of debt if that actually happened. Mason is not quite sure what he wants Holmes to investigate, but a number of odd changes have happened at the stable: Why has Lady Beatrice suddenly forgone her usual habit of stopping to greet her favourite horse? Why does she just ride on by in her carriage? Why has Sir Robert become so wild-eyed lately? Why has he given his sister's dog away to a neighbourhood innkeeper?

Why does he go to the old crypt at night, and who is that man that he meets there? Why have burnt human bones been found in the furnace at Shoscombe?

Discussion

Now this one was interesting! That poor sister, she wasn’t properly put to rest because of her brother’s greed. Thank goodness for the dog revealing the whole thing! And shame on that brother. I don’t think justice was met, and the ending left me feeling irritated.

Rating

3/5

[oldfashionedbooklove]

Random notes while reading Sherlock Holmes according to @skyriderwednesday, part 3: The Shoscombe Old Place.

- I find it very amusing that Doyle didn’t bother with a date or introduction but jumped right in.

- Has it ever been mentioned Watson was interested in the turf before? Interesting.

- Love the thumbnail sketch of Norberton. (He doesn’t deserve the “sir.”)

- John Mason sounds a very interesting fellow in his own right.

- I find it hilarious when people say they could swear to someone, when it is constantly proven memory is singularly faillible, specially in startling experiences.

- The way Mason tells his story, progressively startling and interesting Holmes, is delightful. 😁

- I don’t care how often I do it, I love reading Sherlock’s comments as he ponders cases.

- I’m 99.99% sure that spoon-bait for jack was not forgotten accidentally…

- Clearly, Sir Robert has had too much of his own way and needs more Sherlock Holmes types to check him, and that oftener.

- The bit about the heritage and crypt are morbidly fascinating. The paths of glory lead but to the grave… 

- Sir Robert is really disgusting. All the more so because he doesn’t seem to realize or accept this. His victim mentality is strong: “…I was compelled to horsewhip…” I find it interesting, though, that the story ends with not only tolerance but almost approval… I believe in second chances but also in justice… there’s a lot to think about here.

[no-side-us]

Letters From Watson Liveblog - Nov. 1

Shoscombe Old Place, Part 1 of 2

I feel like this is the first time in a long time Watson's wound has come up, and it's from horse racing of all things! This is also another new facet of Watson's life outside of Holmes, which always interests me.

So no matter what, Norberton won't get the estate. I had initially thought Norberton would be trying to get into his sister's will or be blackmailing her in some way, but if she can't give it to him, then I guess that's not what's happening.

I feel like it's a bit dirty to use a horse's identical, albeit slower, brother to make people bet against it, though it is clever.

Also, it took me a second to realize that last sentence there is referring to a Jewish stereotype, so that's unfortunate.

Taking someone's dog seems like such an unnecessarily mean thing to do. At least he didn't kill it, which wouldn't be surprising based on what else we've learned about him.

A haunted crypt‽ A shame this story wasn't sent in October, it would have fit the time much better.

This story has everything: horse-racing, haunted crypts, possible melodrama, and now mummies. I don't know how archaeology worked back then, but hopefully in a real situation it would have been properly studied.

Always nice to see Watson's expertise come into play, even if Holmes seemingly already knew the answer, having him have Watson confirm it is a good show of camaraderie.

Part 1 - Part 2