#robert hanson harrison

[a-loose-collection-of-ants]

I'm sure he'll be fine

[ixis-stuff]

hi i thought i’d dump post my lams art (laureloch, just laurens + jemmy, and washington aides art there too)

@nerenight ‘s washington aide one shot fic inspired art for the one with their writing in it and the sketch of hamilton asking if du ponceau wants to try on his glasses lololl!

oh my god i need to draw some of their other chapters, i personally think they capture the aides as a whole in my favorite way of all time (i can ramble for hours but well..)

[john-laurens]

Another interesting component of John Laurens's left-handed letter is that it contains a fairly intact seal. The seal bears the image of a right-facing profile of a man. I am not sure who the man is supposed to be. It doesn't bear much resemblance to the extant portraits of John Laurens. It does remind me of the profiles of emperors featured on Roman currency, so perhaps it's some sort of Classics reference?

Additionally, I am not sure if this would have been Laurens's personal seal or a seal of someone in Washington's camp. While Laurens wrote the letter himself, the letter was clearly addressed by another hand. Perhaps it was addressed and/or sealed by Colonel Harrison (presumably Robert Hanson Harrison), who carried the letter to Henry Laurens.

[tricornonthecob]

today the question was asked "what if George Washington but actually pretty" and I gave myself psychic damage.

[icarusbetide]

hello is your goal in life also to be just like tench tilghman and weasel out of life's greatest hurdles? because that man somehow managed to be passed over by the vindictive little shits who called harrison, a man younger than tilghman, "the old secretary". yes they were only a year or less apart (Dec 1744 vs some date 1745) but can you imagine being harrison and making eye contact with tilghman while hamilton and mchenry go "yo harrison old secretary old man old old old"?

[almaprincess66]

Update on my Police Office Comedy Aide-de camp AU. We ahve fanart now

I couldn't decide on Tilghman's hair lenght. Actually couldn't decide on anyone's hair for that matter.

Also ignor the part where Hamilton looks like a woman. I also don't know how that happened. Like I want to twink him but not THAT hard.

Yes, Harrison got a little friend. He deserves it.

Maybe I will make up an actual season plot because I have ideas.

[floatyteabag]

Me? Publishing a fic? It’s more likely than you think!

[nordleuchten]

That is exactly the kind of deep dive that I signed up for!

TL; WR: Canon-era Lams sick fics about January 20th, 1778 and the days following are entirely plausible. Laurens didn’t work during the days following Hamilton and Gibbs’ arrival at Valley Forge and worked unusually sparingly until Hamilton returned to writing regularly on February 2nd. Gibbs, who isn’t an official aide and only occasionally writes letters for headquarters, wrote an unusually high number of letters (for him) during that time and might have been picking up Laurens’ slack for him. 

If you like very dense, highly informative, but debatably clear and probably boring and awful (but fascinating to me) data and statistics about all of the aides during this time frame for the sake of historical accuracy/potential accuracy from which one can draw various plausible conclusions, then the following is for you!

(skip to the bottom to see the vast amount of potential conclusions about the situation that I drew from the mass of data I collected if you don’t care about the nitty gritty and just want the various conjectures I developed out of incomplete information)

I got really curious as I was going through the Calendar of Washington’s Correspondance for my Meade research and ended up doing some obnoxiously tedious data compiling across a few platforms. We know that Hamilton and Gibbs arrived back at Valley Forge on January 20th. I discovered then that the only writing Laurens did from January 20th-February 2nd (which is about when Hamilton resumed his writing duties) was:

a letter to his father on the 23rd 

a really short message to his dad for Washington also on the 23rd

a translation of a letter written on the 20th that he didn’t receive and translate till some days later and wasn’t answered until the 26th (so it was probably translated between the 25th-26th)

the letter written on the 26th, mentioned above

a letter to his dad on the 28th, after which he left to attend the Continental Congress Camp Committee meetings with Washington

a copy of the Board of War instructions from the 31st that he could have done who knows when.

There were ~45 letters total written for Washington (so not including Laurens’ letters to his dad) by the aides during the 14 day period between Hamilton’s arrival and his return to regular duties (20th-2nd). According to the Calendar of Correspondance and some additional hunting on Founders, the breakdown looks something like this: 

Tilghman wrote 16 (despite also possibly attending the Continental Congress Camp Committee Meetings with Laurens and Washington)

Harrison 10.5 (Harrison and Fitzgerald share a letter)

Meade 5 (Left on the 31st to meet and escort Mrs. Washington)

Gibbs 4

Laurens 3-4

Fitzgerald 3.5 (Left on leave on February 1st bearing letters from Washington to deliver while away.)

Hamilton 2 

This was, obviously, a rather lax time at headquarters. ~45 letters written in total in 14 days is hardly a dozen more than the volume of letters Tilghman would write by himself in busier sets of two weeks. This is in part because the 29th-2nd were sparse in the letter department, potentially because of the Committee meetings and Washington’s absence from Valley Forge while attending them. Only 8 letters in total were written from the 29th-2nd. 3 from Harrison, 2 from Gibbs, 1 from Fitzgerald, 1 from Tilghman, and 1 from Hamilton. (Fitzgerald’s on the 29th, Harrison’s across the 30th-31st, Tilghman’s on the 30th, Gibbs’ both were on the 1st, and Hamilton’s was on the 2nd)

Gibbs’ contribution through all of this is somewhat striking. He only writes letters occasionally because he’s Captain of the Life Guard first and special aide-de-camp second. His handwriting generally only shows up about 2-4 times in an entire month if it shows up at all and probably only when everyone else is too busy and they need an extra pen. Two in one day for him is a rarity and he wrote both of the only letters written on the 1st. Since he was accompanying Hamilton on his mission, his absence from the calendar for November-January is explainable. But writing so many letters in a small span of time is unusual for him. Gibbs’ contributions were on the 20th, 22nd, and the 1st. (and one on the 3rd, which was one of only 3 letters written that day). Laurens didn’t contribute the 20th-22nd, 24th~25th, 27th, and was attending meetings the 28th and 29th and potentially ‘till the 31st. Washington was writing from Valley Forge on the 1st after ordering Meade to go out and meet Mrs. Washington the day before. Washington was writing from both Moore’s Hall and Valley Forge on the 31st, so they were probably back at camp that day. this means that, ~7 out of the ~11 days that Laurens was at headquarters during Hamilton’s ‘recovery’ period were spent not writing and doing other things instead. (Side note, He also didn’t contribute the 18th-19th). Laurens only writing/translating 3-4 letters for Washington in this time period is an irregularity for him because he usually writes twice that plus whatever extra letters he’s writing to his dad (but it can’t be dismissed that this was a lax time). Before you say that it’s not fair because he was attending committee meetings with Washington ~28th-31st so it’s not very representative of him against everyone else, factoring out the 8 letters that came out of headquarters during that time period and shortening the judging time frame, it’s still an unusually low amount for him and an unusual distribution amongst them. We only have concrete evidence that Laurens was at the Committee meetings because he wrote his father about Washington having him to attend them with him, but Tilghman was also absent from writing for almost the exact same amount of time that Laurens was (save a single letter Tilghman wrote himself). I hunted around in the financial series of the Washington Papers and found a bill written by Tilghman on the 2nd about the reimbursement to him of “money paid for the family” [x x], referring to the Military Family, and potentially in reference to money he paid for Laurens, himself, and whoever else was on the Committee Meeting trip with them (like Hamilton) a few miles out of camp for some days because Aides are required to be reimbursed for all of their travel expenses. This is the reasoning for my deduction that there is a chance that Tilghman was at that meeting as well. But, on the other hand, that money could have also been a reimbursement of money owed back to Tilghman since November. There is a line that Tilghman crossed out on the document where I can just make out “Whitemarsh” somewhere in there, which is where they were camped out in November and was while Gibbs, who was in charge of the cash, was gone. So it could really go either way. With no concrete evidence that says one way or the other, Tilghman was either there or he wasn’t. I don’t know that definitively as of yet. It’s just weird that he only wrote one letter during this time while Gibbs wrote several. Washington’s letter to the Continental Congress Camp Committee was written by Hamilton and read by the committee on the 29th [x]. It’s almost 13k words long. Washington made some corrections to it before taking it with him to present to the Committee 3 miles down the road at the Moore House. There are two unfinished drafts of it that Hamilton numbered 21 and 22 and that Washington had a hand in as well. Those numbers could either represent dates or numbers, it’s unclear. It’s also uncertain how long he spent working on this letter and how long it took him to write it but it contains 16 sections and details the reformation of the different war departments and the way that things are done. Days of work had to have gone into it and weeks of thought and collaboration into its development, and months of build up to it meaning that Hamilton’s absence from contributing to headquarters writing upon his return was probably a result of his work on this specific, incredibly-important letter in preparation for the Committee meeting (which he may have also attended).

Various Potential Conclusions that can be drawn about the Aides during the period of January 20th-February 2nd with the above Information (some situations more plausible than others):

Caleb Gibbs

Gibbs picked up Laurens’ slack while Laurens was helping Hamilton since he wrote on the days Laurens did not.

Gibbs was tasked with helping out at headquarters in Fitzgerald, Meade, Laurens*, Hamilton*, and Tilghman’s* absences.  (*Maybe Hamilton and/or Tilghman as well depending. Laurens also, depending on the day.)

“Gibbs has gotten out of writing letters since November so he should do it” “That’s not fair, What about Hamilton????” “He almost died, remember??? You were there.”

All of the Above, any combination of the above, or none of the above. Regardless, he was also sorting out all of the finances since November. Like reimbursing Tilghman $68 because being in charge of the headquarters finances was one of his jobs as Captain of the Life Guard. (Exciting, I know.)

John Laurens

Laurens was absent from writing because Hamilton was back.

Laurens was absent from writing the 18th-20th because Hamilton could be back any day now

Laurens was absent from writing because Hamilton was ill and needed to be watched over and only worked every few days or so so that he didn’t neglect his duties.

Laurens was absent because he was helping Hamilton with the Committee letter which led to Washington asking Laurens to go with him instead of Hamilton, who was just recently back and recovered from illness and should take a break now after putting all that effort into that letter.

““ ““ Washington asking both Laurens and Hamilton to go with him to the committee meetings. (He was often accompanied out of camp by at least 2+ aides, I’m pretty sure. Might need to look more into that, though)

Laurens was just doing other aide duties that weren’t writing for Washington because those exist and him not writing for several days isn’t entirely uncommon. It’s just Tilghman not writing for a few days that is uncommon.

Laurens was told to take a break from writing the 31st-2nd because Gibbs’s got it and there’re only a few letters to write anyway. 

Alexander Hamilton

The two numbered drafts were Hamilton’s failed attempts at doing work on January 21st and 22nd before Laurens discovered him and made him stop and go back to resting. Washington looked over the unfinished drafts anyway to provide his opinion/alterations on what was already there. This is an important document.

The numbers on the drafts aren’t dates, but something else.

Hamilton wasn’t sick at all because it’s more likely that he was pretty much fully recovered before he left his final sickbed in Peekskill.

Hamilton wrote the final draft of that letter in anywhere between 2 and 8 Days. 

Hamilton worked very closely at headquarters with an agitated Washington on that letter from the day of/after he got to Valley Forge until it was done.

Laurens may have served as the wall for Hamilton to bounce ideas off of while he was writing the Committee Letter.

Hamilton appeared healthy when he returned to camp but then relapsed by the end of the 22nd, hence the unfinished drafts, and was bed-ridden. Laurens indulged him and debated/discussed, in small doses, the topics that Hamilton would end up writing about fully in his letter to the committee in preparation for his actually sitting down and quickly writing it in just a few days once he was recovered enough to do so or could no longer delay doing so

Hamilton does the above and then retires to rest and fully recuperate. Laurens goes to the committee meeting and Hamilton does not, staying behind to stay in bed. When Laurens returns he goes to tend to him if he needs it until he fully recovers from the small relapse he got from overworking himself on the letter.

Hamilton goes to the meeting despite his relapsed health because it’s not a major relapse, just a minor one.

Is entirely healthy on completion of the letter and goes to the meeting

Hamilton going to Moore Hall for the meetings along with Laurens (and potentially Tilghman for a time) during the 28th-31st in combination with a lack of letters to write is why he didn’t resume his writing duties until the 2nd.

also potentially in combination with him being mildly sick again and having to recover a final time being why he didn’t resume his duties.

Caleb Gibbs being like “I got this, you just relax” and writing all the letters for the 1st because Hamilton wrote the committee letter and should take a break.

Hamilton’s absence from writing was him taking a break when he got back because he generally knows how to take care of himself and knows when it’s time for him to take a break, which is why he didn’t start writing any other letters until the 2nd after having to rush to complete the massive Committee letter sometime before the 28th.

“I just wrote 13k words so I’m not writing again for, like, a week.”

Harrison was the one that made Hamilton not work on anything until the 2nd, where Hamilton wrote the only letter for that day and got back to writing regularly from there on out.

See some of the options above in the John Laurens section for other alternatives

Tench Tilghman

Wrote 3 letters on the 27th, 3 letters on the 28th, no letters the 29th, 1 letter signed by his own name the 30th, no letters the 31st-2nd. (fact)

Didn’t go to the Committee Meetings

Went to two of the Committee Meetings before returning to camp

Was coincidentally sick and needed a break at the exact time the committee meetings were happening and for the exact same amount of time that Laurens and Hamilton were absent from writing as well (minus the one letter on the 30th).

Hamilton was actually sick, in the last stages of his recovery, and when the Committee meetings rolled around and he didn’t go, Tilghman volunteered to help him out in Laurens’ place.

Harrison made Tilghman take a break the 29th-2nd and told him that he and Gibbs would take care of it all, but didn’t stop him from writing the one letter on Washington’s behalf. Otherwise, Tilghman was just chillin’ and takin’ a break for several days because he usually doesn’t ever stop.

Robert Hanson Harrison

Was holding down the fort while everyone was gone.

Went to 28th-29th committee meetings because he often attended important meetings with Washington and was back by on the 29th because he wrote both letters for the 30th (probably not)

Didn’t go to any of the committee meetings at all because they were outside of camp and he was the one that usually ran headquarters during Washington’s absences from camp. (more likely)

Richard Kidder Meade

Left on the 31st to collect Mrs. Washington and escort her back to camp because Washington ordered him out as soon as he got word [x]. 

Went to the meetings (unlikely)

Didn’t go to the meetings (most likely)

Didn’t write letters the 28th-31st because there were pretty much no letters to write.

Might have been doing his numerous non-writing aide duties because him writing infrequently for Washington at headquarters was not uncommon in his case. It wasn’t his main duty to write letters.

Gibbs gave Meade $130 for the expenses of his Mrs. Washington trip and Meade returned $110 back him. [x]

Meade was broke and needed money for the trip

Meade was not broke, it’s just that he spent $317 out of his own pocket for all of the family’s expenses in Gibbs’ stead back in October while Gibbs was with Hamilton on their mission [x] and Gibbs was like “I’m giving you money for this trip.” “No. I can handle it. You already paid me back.” “TAKE THE MONEY. IT’S MY JOB TO GIVE YOU MONEY FOR THIS SHIT.” “Okay but I’m giving back everything I don’t spend.”  -only spends $20 because Meade lives like he’s poor even though he has money-

Gibbs gave him the money because they are supposed to reimburse all travel costs anyway, so why not jump the gun and give Meade the money to start with.

John Fitzgerald

Didn’t go to the meetings

Wrote the only letter on the 29th, which signed in his own name because Washington wasn’t there.

Left on leave the 1st with Washington’s letters for some people in Virginia to drop off while he was out [x]. Didn’t return until mid-May.

In General

The 28th-7th just didn’t have a lot of letters. It was a really ‘relaxed’ time and there weren’t a lot of letters to write in comparison to some other times so there was more free time to do other things and letters from headquarters could be taken care of by a couple people on their own and there was no significance to the distribution of letters at all and none of this matters.

It might have all been business as usual-just less of it.

I don’t have a life.

Laurens definitely went to the meeting

Hamilton and Tilghman might have gone, Hamilton more likely than Tilghman.

Harrison and Meade probably didn’t go but there is a slim chance they might have

Gibbs and Fitzgerald definitely didn’t go

I am way too focused on that unimportant bit of information over who went and who didn’t, honestly.

I spent way too much time on this (like, 45+ hours)

Hamilton had an incredibly important letter to write between the 20th-28th regardless of how healthy he was when he started.

Laurens wrote fewer letters than he usually did and Gibbs wrote far more than he usually did.

So, there are a lot of different conjectures that one can make based on this incomplete data set and a variety of different ways that one can view said data and then piece it together to come to several different plausible conclusions/scenarios, but the most important one is:

Canon-era lams sick fics of Hamilton’s return on the 20th and the days following that are entirely plausible based on cold-hard data. And, Caleb Gibbs might have stepped in to write letters for Laurens so he could help/spend time with Hamilton with recovering and writing a 13k word long letter pass it on.

Of course, other situations are just as entirely plausible as that one and even that scenario has a wide variety of variables that can be applied to it based on the data, so take it as you will.

[a-loose-collection-of-ants]

The Boys

[spacing-history-queer]

Robert Hanson Harrison?

More like Robert handsome Harrison

[icarusbetide]

this is even better if you think about harrison, tilghman, meade being in their thirties like "yeah fuck it let's play truth or dare with the frat boys"

have we ever considered. Washington's aides playing truth or dare..

[icarusbetide]

connection between wartime administration & federalist-lean?

There's an argument that wartime service and experiencing Congress' failures firsthand as Washington's aide de camp pushed Hamilton further into the ideals that would later be seen as Federalist: a national instead of state outlook, a permanent military power, and a strong, efficient government.

I was wondering if that argument can be applied on a broader scale: is there an overall connection between revolutionary wartime administration and federalist-leaning political beliefs?

I'm by no means qualified but for my own curiosity's sake, I tried to find the political inclinations of former leaders in the war as well as members of Washington's family, who arguably should have seen the same inefficiencies as Hamilton.

Major Generals:

Washington: Tried very hard to be nonpartisan, but pretty federalist when all's said and done. Especially in 2nd term as president and in last years of life Horatio Gates: Supported Jefferson's presidency, so assuming he was leaning Democratic-Republican? Henry Knox: Federalist Philip Schuyler: Federalist William Alexander, Lord Stirling: Not sure John Sullivan: Federalist, led drive in New Hampshire for Constitution's ratification Thomas Mifflin: Federalist according to Wikipedia (was also aide to GW from June to August 1775) Arthur St. Clair: Federalist. Governor of Northwest Territory, removed by Jefferson in 1802 due to political party differences. Benjamin Lincoln: Federalist, strong policies and presence in Massachusetts Thomas Conway: Unreliable source says Federalist William Moultrie: Some sites say Federalist but he had falling out with Washington because of his pro-French actions towards Genet. Possibly nonpartisan.

Washington's family (Aides, Culper, Life Guard. If they died before we can quantify as "Federalist", then not included):

Note: I tried to include length of service and timeline, arguably important (there during Valley Forge or good period?), but it's difficult in consideration of leave and such. Used Wikipedia's dates.

Edmund Randolph (August - November 75): Wiki says Federalist but I know enough about him that he was often the swinging vote in Washington's cabinet, and that he didn't sign the Constitution because he thought it too strong. Tench Tilghman (August 76 - June 80 | June 80 - Nov 83): Died in 1786. I shouldn't include him but raise a glass for our hardworking Tilghman. Robert Harrison (Nov 75 - May 76 | Military Sec May 76 - 81): Died in 1790. Wikipedia says Federalist. John Fitzgerald (Nov 76 - July 78): Couldn't find John Walker (Feb - March 77): Unreliable source says Federalist Samuel Blachley Webb (June 76 - Jan 77): Couldn't find William Grayson (Assistant Sec. July - August 76 | Aide August 76 - Jan 77): Leader of Anti-Federalist faction with Mason, Monroe, etc. died in 1790 Alexander Contee Hanson Sr. (Assistant Sec. June - Sep 76): Federalist according to Wiki Alexander Hamilton (March 77 - April 81): Is this even a question? Stephen Moylan (March 76 - June 76 | Sept. 76 - Jan 77): "Firm Federalist" according to Founders Online James McHenry (May 78 - August 80): Federalist, GW's Secretary of War in 2nd term when cabinet members were much more partisan. Richard Kidder Meade (March 77 - November 80): Couldn't find. I know that he was very close with Hamilton, which makes me think it possible that their politics had some similarities? But entirely speculation. Hodijah Baylies (May 82 - Dec 83): Federalist. According to Founders Online, Gallatin was advised against Baylies because he was a "decided and we believe a sentimental federalist”. David Cobb (June 81 - Jan 83 | June 83 - Dec 83): Wiki says Federalist Peregrine Fitzhugh (July 81 - Oct 81): Not sure if same Peregrine Fitzhugh, but in a letter to Jefferson in 1807, said: "It is true I have been called a Federalist, and feel a pride in being so: but my Federalism is firmed in those principles which dictated the correct and memorable declaration that we were all Federalists all republicans" William Stephens Smith (July 81 - June 82): Federalist (member of Congress as Federalist in 1812) David Humphreys (June 80 - Dec 83): Federalist. He was part of the Hartford Wits and wrote the poem The Anarchiad. "In 1802, Thomas Jefferson...decided to replace Humphreys...Historians speculate that Humphreys's closeness to the Federalist Party motivated Jefferson’s decisions." from Mt. Vernon Richard Varick (Aide & Priv Sec May 81 - Dec 83): Apparently Federalist and later mayor of New York Benjamin Walker (Jan 82 - Dec 83): Federalist, elected to Congress as Federalist

Caleb Gibbs (May 76 - Dec 80): Couldn't find Nathaniel Sackett: Couldn't find Benjamin Tallmadge (1778 - 1783): Federalist, part of minority in Congress during Jefferson & Madison administrations

Other aides who might've had administrative work, although I'm not sure:

Aaron Burr: Very short run with Washington, and Israel Putnam's aide. Technically Democratic-Republican, but some historians have noted his politics did not always align with a party.

James Monroe: Aide to Stirling, Republican-Democratic

Concerns:

First concern: I'm not sure if the other major generals' aides would see as much administrative work directly with Congress as Washington's aides. I'm under the impression that other generals would report to Washington, than Congress, but I'm not sure.

Second concern: I also want to add that other factors would have most definitely played a role, such as familial and economic interests, which may or may not have been influenced by the war. Still, I thought it would be an interesting exercise.

Third concern: A lot of this is very shallow research as I did not have the time or energy to really dig into all of them. Please let me know if there is any inaccurate information (even Federalist or Democratic Republican is a very broad term and I'm sure their beliefs varied).

Please let me know if you see any inaccurate information, or anyone/some branch I did not consider!

[almaprincess66]

Okay, so this is slightly cringe of me but I have been making this Actor AU for George Washington's office for abouth half a year now. And I kinda wanna talk about it because it consumes my every waking thought.

To clarify the acting au is that I made up fictional actors who would play the historical figures in some sort of adaptation of the revolutionary war. Most of them have names and personalities too that I made up.

So I will introduce all of you to the following people playing our favorite aide-de camps:

Alexander Hamilton as: Natalie Neumann, actress musician and queer icon, wrote a 36 page long psychological analisis on Hamilton to get the job and killed it.

John Laurens as: Stephen, Two times married 26 year old with a love for horror and the personality of a golden retriver, originally wasn't even in the top three choices for the role but the person they casted quit four weeks in and he spoke french.

Tench Tilghman as: Taylor, tired ex-nurse turned actor and everybody asks him about their medical problems instead of going to a doctor, he had to overwatch every single of Natalie's and Stephen's bullshit and also fluent in french.

Richard Kidder Meade as: Richard, his significant other (they/them) works for the Tax Man, originally was on the audio team because he is a voice actor but Natalie and him had so much fun figuring out the Hamilton voice that the director asked him to get an on-screen role.

Robert Hanson Harrison as: Reggie(Regulus), father of four but you could not tell, got arrested on set for breaking the arm of the murderous ex of their director.

John Fitzgerald as: Felix O'Connor, Singer is a curch choir with three parrots, got married during the shooting and told it to literally noone.

James McHenry as: Liam, got famous with a serious police drama role actually is a sweetheart, got hit in the face with at least three books on set.

Caleb Gibbs as: Ivan, was a croatian child actor before his family emigrated to the US, appeared on the infamous and hillarious pancake making advertisment program for the screen project where they got literally the two people on team who wasn't born in the states.

Joseph Reed: Noah, the phisically healthiest person with occasional emotional breakdowns, is the reason everybody has everyone's phone number because he got lost in the forest for three hours and could have died.

George Washington as: Benson Herrera, has the vibe of a father of four and shamelessly late from everywhere, got a 28 minute long video compalation of him titled "Benson Herrera getting screamed at by Italian women for 28 minutes and 36 seconds" and all the recordings are from this one project alone.

This was asked by nooen and I never done such a thing but here you go. I hope at least someone will apprechiate it because I could talk so much about them.