#rhato fans are just. well rhato fans

[aalghul]

jason fans with rhato 2016 or boy wonder 2024 icons tend to have some of the worst opinions on jason. unsurprisingly

[pluckyredhead]

“I have larger thoughts about how DC has kind of written themselves into a hole with Jason and now he's stuck in this limbo that's unsatisfying to everyone which is why so many Jason fans are mad all the time, but that's for another ask.”

🤓 Do tell…

Okay, let's see if I can do this in less than a thousand words!

So Jason, at his core, represents a challenge to Bruce's ideology, right? Bruce's #1 rule is No Killing, and Jason's basic idea is: "That doesn't work. Some villains are bad enough that they have to be killed for the greater good." (There's something very funny about Jason, famously undead, thinking killing stops ANYONE in the DCU, but we'll leave that aside for now.) This is a really interesting ethical quandary to throw Bruce's way, and by having it voiced by his beloved son, his greatest failure, his second most profound tragedy, it becomes a deeply thorny emotional problem as well as an ethical problem. That's all great.

The problem is, DC can't allow Jason to be right, for two reasons:

Batman must always be right and must always win.

...I mean, come on. They can't actually publish a story advocating for a traumatized 19-year-old with assault weapons to be the arbiter of who lives and who dies, that's nonsense. I love Jason but really.

The problem with that is, Jason is a major recurring character.

UTRH works great in a vacuum. But if Jason is showing up in a comic every month, or even just a few times a year, this central conflict has to be addressed, and the options for doing that are limited:

Bruce and Jason fight and Jason wins. DC will never let this happen. (And what would "Jason wins" even look like, honestly? He's not going to kill Bruce.)

Bruce and Jason fight and Bruce wins. They've done this a bunch (sometimes with Dick in place of Bruce), but Jason fans don't want to see him repeatedly getting his ass kicked while being lectured, and frankly it doesn't make Bruce look great either.

Bruce allows Jason to kill people. This can't happen either; it would be wildly out of character for Bruce, not to mention literally everyone in the Batfamily. They are all canonically pretty opposed to murder.

Jason continues to operate however he wants, but outside of Bruce's reach/jurisdiction. As wretched as RHATO was, I actually think it was a smart decision to keep most of the action outside of Gotham, because then we can pretend Bruce doesn't know what Jason's up to, just like we pretend Clark couldn't super-hear everything in Gotham and save Bruce's ass every single night without breaking a sweat. The problem here is that it means Jason is unavailable for the kinds of casual team-ups and crossovers that fans of all stripes crave - plus, every time he comes back to Gotham, he and Bruce have to relitigate their entire relationship AGAIN.

Jason compromises and agrees to follow Bruce's rules in order to have a relationship with the Batfamily. This is basically where DC has landed, and I understand why they did, because it's the option that allows them to publish the most comics with Jason in them, which they want to do because he is an immensely popular character who makes them money. However, it leaves him in this awkward position where instead of being a tragic villain/badass antihero, he's just...the sassiest member of the family, while simultaneously always being available to be treated like shit because he's Bad. He gets punished without even the fun of doing the crime anymore.

So what's the solution? I don't know. Theoretically, DC could try to do what Marvel does with the Punisher. People always get mad when I say Jason is DC's Punisher, but he kills pretty much indiscriminately in UTRH and RHATO, for pretty much the same reasons. ("Dudebros think it looks cool.") And Marvel heroes inexplicably let Frank just kill however many people he wants unless they're appearing in a Punisher comic, at which point they go "Frank, you naughty boy, I shall stop you!" and then Frank kicks their ass and makes them look like an idiot. DC is never going to let Jason do that to Bruce, plus it would put a real damper on the Wayne family Thanksgiving dinner.

Alternately, they could make him a Nightwing villain. Dick has spent 40 years fighting inconclusively with Deathstroke; he's much better suited to go endless rounds with Jason without either of them Always Triumphantly Winning than Bruce is. I don't personally want this option because I just don't care that much about Dick, but it could be really interesting, though it would limit Jason to fewer appearances and primarily in Dick's book. (Jason would have made a superb Red Robin villain 15 years ago for similar reasons.)

My vote, I think, would be for a really good (god, if only), really thoughtful Jason series where he has reason to seriously reevaluate his philosophy towards crime - something that reshapes him into a character who can still challenge Bruce's entrenched ideas without being so diametrically opposed to them as to make him a villain. He needs to be close enough to Bruce's rules to appear in crossovers, but far enough and specific enough that he's not just Meaner Nightwing. Jason is a passionate character; DC needs to find a new way to let his passion work for him, because right now he doesn't have anything driving him, and it's satisfying no one.

(900 words, BOOM!)

[roseworth]

who are the people you think jason actually cares about?

ohhh this is such a good question bc jason shows "caring" in so many fucked up ways <3 im only going off pre-52 canon because i do not like acknowledging rhato or anything that happened after that. so unfortunately i will not be going into an extensive rant about jason and rose 😔

so firstly and most obviously. jason cares about bruce a lot. everything in under the red hood and lost days and everything after that hinges on the fact that jason genuinely cares about bruce and cares what he thinks about him. if jason didnt care about bruce, none of it would've mattered. but the fact that he cares changes everything

with bruce, its not really care in the sense that he wants him to be okay and safe, but more that he wants bruce to show that he cares about him. he doesnt really give a shit about protecting bruce, mostly because he knows that bruce can protect himself so jason doesnt need to do anything. but even when he wants bruce dead, its still more about what bruce thinks of him than actually wanting him to die. its not main canon but the arkham knight comics show this really well since jason's only goal in that universe is to kill bruce, but every time he's close to death in the comics jason steps in to save him because he won't let bruce die if it isnt jason who kills him. then a good main canon example is ofc in lost days when jason puts a bomb in the batmobile, then chooses not to detonate it because bruce would die without knowing it was jason who killed him

red hood: lost days #2

also worth mentioning that jason actually explains what hes thinking In Depth to bruce. he wants bruce to understand him so he lays out exactly what hes doing and why. jason is so open about his emotions to Only bruce because hes desperate for his father to understand him. if he didnt care about bruce he wouldnt care what bruce thinks, but he openly shows everything to bruce because he WANTS him to understand. obviously this is not open honest healthy communication because its usually communicated by screaming while theyre punching each other. but its still worth something

another obvious one to me is talia <3 shes the only other person that hes ever really open and honest with, and hes not even screaming at her! he tells her what hes thinking most of the time, and he constantly goes back to her for help when he needs it.

lost days #3

im not gonna sit here and say that jason and talia have a super healthy relationship but. its by far the healthiest relationship he has post-death! even though iirc we never see them interact again after lost days (🙂) he still cares about her a lot and shes such an important part of his life

moving on. dick

dick is one of the only people we see jason go out of his way to talk to without fighting (sort of. they do end up fighting but he still just wanted to chat). without going into whatever the hell is going on in brothers in blood (affectionate! its camp!) he just wants to find dick and talk to him. hes being an asshole about it because hes jason but he became nightwing because there was a need for A Nightwing so he filled in, then he goes "omg dick my favorite brother lets team uppppp 😁 itll be so fun 😁"

nightwing #119

then in outsiders, jason comes to dick just to give him information. they end up fighting again because they both suck but there was no secret plot or ulterior motive, he just wanted to help black lightning and tell dick what he could do

outsiders #44

once again hes an asshole so its hard to tell but he does actually like & care about dick

okay. now its time for a controversial one. in a weird way i think mia is one of the few people he cares about

LISTEN. listen. im a mia fan so this is not just me being a jason fan and making everything with her about him. and im not saying "everything he did was fine actually because he did it out of love ☺️" NO he did it because hes fucked in the head. and i love him

so heres the thing. we see him with people he doesnt care about all the time. he beats the shit out of tim for no reason and generally makes peoples lives harder for fun. but its so different with mia. in a way he sees her as an extension of himself because he recognizes how similar they are, so hes genuinely just trying to get through to her. hes fighting her because its the only way he can get her to listen and really drive his point home! again, he sees so much of himself in her so hes basically using this moment to tell her everything that he would tell his past self after everything hes gone through. hes not trying to convince her, hes trying to convince baby jaybin.

green arrow #72

i love this scene so much. there are emotions you can only unlock by being insane about jason and mia at the same time and reading this scene. he is projecting so much onto her in this moment that in a roundabout way he really cares about what happens to her. i am the only person on earth with correct opinions about the jason and mia fight btw

anyways moving on to sasha/scarlet

honestly i dont like talking about scarlet because i feel like everything in that story is out of character for him, especially the idea that he would take in a kid sidekick. but if im talking about people he cared about pre-52 i dont want to leave her out

batman and robin #4

he doesnt really show care like this a lot (which is part of the reason it feels out of character but whatever) and its so significant to see that he just. actually cares about her. he knows that shes going through something difficult so hes there for her. in a way the same feelings are there as when he talks to mia (he sees himself in her and wants to tell her everything he wishes he had known at that age) but shes a lot more receptive given that he was the first person that took her in after what happened. that is not a good thing because he took a traumatized child and got her to kill people but we've already established that hes fucked in the head <3 but he actually cares about her and wants to protect her, so its the most normal way he shows that he cares about someone

and now i NEED to talk about donna

if you notice a pattern you'll see that most of the people that he cares about are either people he knew before he died or people that he projects onto. and lucky for donna shes both!

countdown #48

he still looks up to donna like he did when he was robin, and after what she went through (im not gonna bother questioning why he knows all the details of everything that happened to her. comics) he sees so much of himself in her but she obviously went down a completely different path and he doesnt agree with her but he clearly respects her for it. and she is once again one of the only people who he goes out of his way to just! have a conversation with! without fighting her! he just wants to chat with his buddy donna :( not to mention idk who pointed it out but i once saw someone say that he specifically destroyed donna's statue in teen titans #29 because!!! he cared about her!!!! they got along when he was robin and he wanted to see her!!

and even throughout countdown jason was rarely mad at donna. he fought with kyle allllll the time and sometimes donna yelled at him because hes an asshole but he never tried to pick a fight with donna! which means that donna is the only person on this list that he has never tried to fight and/or kill <3 donna & jason #1 one-sided besties of all time

okay anyways ill stop yapping now <3 in conclusion: bruce talia dick mia sasha donna

[mysterycitrus]

Your opinions are sooo correct & sexy! I wanna know what you think about the switch of Roy being Dick's friend to (primarily) Jason's friend. Like in terms of both canon & fanon

(no pressure to answer though, just curious!)

ive talked about this before, so im not being facetious when i say that i don’t think there is anything remotely salvageable in the jason+roy relationship. i hate it.

when u consider current comic canon (that’s more or less tepidly reverted to post-crisis, pre-2011 canon), there is literally no reason why a freshly single father would be besties with his actual best friend’s 12yo brother. it’s profoundly unserious. even removing dick from the equation, in what world would roy be closer to jason than he is to ollie or donna or dinah or wally or jade or connor or mia or grant or vic or grace or literally any of the other titans?

i truly don’t think fans who like their relationship in that capacity care about roy, his history as a character, or his characterisation, because he is reduced to a demeaning, dehumanised depiction of any addict that is so totally divorced from his previous runs. how can u look at the roy harper that exists in rhato canon and not feel insulted that lobdell removed his family, his culture, his teammates, and his daughter in favour of making him swoon over jason? how is this a remotely egalitarian relationship when he exists to facilitate jason’s development and nothing else? how is roy treated with any respect by these fans?

the spiralling fanon vortex pulls everyone around roy in and ruins them by association. think about how unkind these interpretations of ollie are, or jade, or dick. how the actual important people in roy’s life, who love him and lian, are demonised to make room for jason. how unsympathetic the writing is to addicts, and how roy’s own addiction is switched as if different substances are interchangeable? how can u seriously engage with stories about sexual assault that posit roy as a slut-shaming, immature asshole who would seriously blame anyone for their own assault? it makes me so angry.

that’s even ignoring that roy would objectively not be cool with the things jason does, whether it be dealing, murdering people, or attacking roy’s own sister. roy has a moral backbone and isn’t afraid to be loud about it. there’s never been a team he was on pre-reboot where he hadn’t spoken up against shitty leadership or bad decisions — especially with dick. the difference in respect between dick and jason, where roy is allowed to be an adult with the titans and the outsiders and the league but is the team pet of the outlaws who can’t advocate for himself, is very stark.

it’s literally like if they decided to change kon to be damian’s best friend instead of tim’s, ignoring the age difference and their history together and any pre existing relationships. that’s how absurd the change was. that’s how much kon would have to be mischaracterised in order for that relationship to “work.”

jason could exist as an interesting contrast to roy, the same way he does to dick, but that would rely on roy being written well. it would have to mean they weren’t friends, that they weren’t close, and that jason wasn’t an actual part of his life, because that’s the only way they could exist together without roy being thrown on the fire to keep jason warm.

[galaxymagitech]

jayroy for the ship ask thing??

So…unfortunately I don’t ship it. But I tolerate it—it’s not a dealbreaker for a fic.

(The following is just my opinion! Anyone can feel free to disagree politely, but I’m not claiming to be any more correct than JayRoy shippers.)

1. Why don’t you ship it? A couple reasons. I feel like every JayRoy fic I’ve seen is all about Jason, and that kind of just bothers me to the point where I have no interest in the ship. I also feel like they’re at insanely different points in their lives. Jason is, at most, 3 years older than Tim, so he’s 19 or 20 right now. He’s still in his angsty teen phase. Meanwhile, Roy has a daughter and is stuck in my head as older than Dick—so in his late 20s. They’re both adults, but I’m just not super sure how they could relate to each other, given that they’re in such different places.

I’m just also not sure Jason would have a fulfilling relationship with someone who struggles with drug addiction. Not Roy’s fault, but I feel like it could lead to some messed up stuff where Jason is paranoid and Roy feels like he isn’t trusted. Or if Roy does relapse then Jason might freak out from his own trauma. It feels kind of like “yeah let’s totally throw these two people with the least compatible pair of issues together in a pressure cooker and watch them explode!” Some people might like that ship dynamic, but I’m personally not a fan.

2. What would have made you like it? A better RHatO. Seriously. I tried so hard to read that comic, but the characterization of Koriand’r just killed any enjoyment for me. And they made Roy into an idiot. If Jason and Roy shared a really good comic (maybe they do and I just haven’t found it), I think I’d be a lot more interested in their dynamic and inclined to ship them.

3. Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it? I think, excluding the issue of drugs, there’s a lot of potential for a supportive relationship here. Also, Jason would be great with Lian, and I would be interested in seeing him interact with the Arrowfam (especially after the incident with Mia). And if you think DickRoy was a thing, idea that Jason keeps stealing his brothers’ love interests is hilarious (Roy, Kori, …Rose, sort of). Plus, Roy has a lot of leadership experience and skills and I think he and Jason would work well together if they were treated as equal partners. Adding romance into that dynamic could make it closer and more intense.

[ultimate-marysue]

I’m hoping you can answer a question for me. I need a Jason Todd expert, and you seem like one.

I’ve seen two big posts recently. One argued that Jason and Tim can’t stand each other, don’t trust each other, and can barely work together (if at all). The other says that in the new canon, Jason and Tim are basically best friends, and Tim is Jason’s favourite sibling. Both posts cited a bunch of different runs and authors/artists, and called the other side misinformed.

So, I ask you: what is the actual relationship between Jason Todd and Tim Drake? Are they close friends and brothers, friendly/neutral acquaintances, or enemies?

I hope you can answer me, or if not point me in the direction of somebody who can. Thanks!

Hey! I wouldn't call myself the Jason expert (that's @glitter-stained ) but I'm currently writing a fic about the relationship between these two so I feel like I can explain the two conflicting versions.

The most important take away is: people are really unhappy with current canon for a variety of reasons, one of the most notable ones being Jason's writing in general (RHATO specifically). This means canon has lost a lot of power after New 52 because characters act, well, out of character and fans point out how it doesn't make sense.

As for canon: yes, they are good siblings that get along pretty well with varying degrees of sassiness depending on the run. This happens after Jason "makes amends" with the family at some undisclosed time in new 52. This new canon is way more wholesome and it shows the members of the family getting along way better than their pre-New 52 counterparts ever did. My favorite comic depicting this good relationship is Knight Terrors: Robin, but the most canon option is RHATO (which has plenty of moments between the two) as pictured below or even Chip Zdarsky's Batman run where everyone gets along pretty well.

So, it's canon right? Yes, but what is canon if fans don't accept it? The first thing I said is how people are dissatisfied with New 52 and RHATO specifically, which happen to be where the examples of these two getting along come from. I'm not going to get into why they think Jason or Tim are out of character cause that's its own post, but in the relationship between them it's pretty easy to point out: it's just not earned.

Tim and Jason have genuine gripes with one another and opposing morals most times. We don't get to see a moment where post Red Robin, Tim decides maybe sometimes killing is the answer, even if not for him. We don't get to see him learn that Jason wasn't an idiot disobeying Batman and that he was tricked by his mother. Jason doesn't know about Tim's 16th birthday and thus assumes that he just blindly idolizes Batman. He thinks his Robin run was just like his own and doesn't understand just how much shit Bruce put him through, thus assuming he's a bit spoiled.

Fans don't think either of these characters could just turn around and suddenly start liking each other the second Jason gets admitted into the family (something that also happens without much of an actual explanation?? At least not a satisfying one). It's not even that they necessarily have a personal vendetta (at least not Jason, and Tim is a very forgiving character), so it's not something out of the picture. A lot of their problems with each other stem from Bruce and his teachings and the language around Jason after his death.

In conclusion: it's not like the characters can't overcome their differences and come to find friendship or siblinghood in one another, it's more so that it requires more development. This has always been DC's weakest point, relationships and characters changing suddenly to suit a new direction disregarding their actual personality and values. So, it is canon, but a lot of people argue it shouldn't count if characters don't behave like themselves. There's a dissonance between the original characters and their current iterations that has not been bridged with character development.

But by all means, it is actually canon! People just have genuine gripes with how current canon disregards the previous canon. It's like getting attached to a character but suddenly it becomes this unrecognizable caricature that has barely anything to do with the OG but you're meant to acknowledge it as the same person. So, yeah, fans aren't happy, but I guess everyone gets along now.

Again, not a lore expert, but I hope I could explain why you could find two post with plenty of evidence arguing for opposing points.

[forlornmelody]

Now that the poll is out, I think I'm leaning towards having both. Cause Donna would be a great tie in to setting up ARGUS as the employer of the Outlaws, BUT, Rose needs more people to flirt with (and I feel like Artemis would flirt BACK) also Artemis awesome and we could always use more ladies in universe.

Speaking of, if you have any reading recs for Artemis content, lemme know. I'm mostly familiar with her through RHATO.

[meili-sheep]

Genuinely disgusted by how people keep victim blaming Diluc, saying Diluc is the source of all of kaeya's problems. And some of the people slandering Diluc are Diluc fans themselves!

Don't get me started on the "jokes" this fandom writes about him. I personally don't think physical violence or 'characters getting blamed for something they didn't do' are funny jokes.

I'm so tired.

Wish people would realise how shitty of a person kaeya is. It doesn't help that Genshin rewrote kaeya to make him likeable.

(Kaeya and collei are friendly with each other, Kaeya babysitting klee when she already has albedo)

Sorry for rambling. I'm sick of how terribly Diluc is getting treated. And I am avoiding most of the fandom, but I still end up running into these people.

Honestly, like Diluc low-key has been getting shafted for a while. In the fandom and in canon.

And the only reason I think that he's been kept in Mihoyo's basement is because his lore is just so end game heavy. So that's why he hasn't popped up again. I think Mihoyo realized that the traveler could just ask Diluc shit, and he'd be able to solve like 70% of their problems.

As for the fandom. I personally am both fascinated by fandom as a method of looking at people's social interaction and as a method of studying their interruptions of media in a creative way. But also holy cow does it suck to be in here sometimes. And I feel I am desensitized to people's shitty takes on Kaeya and Diluc. Partly because well. I'm a Jason Todd fan, so I've been having the shit beating out of me since like 2014 (when I got into superhero comics). And I do see a lot of parallels between fan interruptions, Bruce's relationship with Jason and Kaeya and Diluc. Like Bruce has deeply wronged Jason. And I'm not talking Under the Red Hood, I'm like talking RHatO #25 and whatever the hell was happening in Gotham War (I'm honestly trying to forget that). And so has Kaeya. Like Man is not that stupid, his decision to tell Diluc that was entirely selfish. You have to have like no emotional intelligence to do what Kaeya did. And Kaeya had consistently proven he does have that. He had a great moment of weakness and now continues to be too weak to actually apologize. He's also dense in a way I'm not a fan of. Because if you really think he's gonna be a spy and betray Mondstadt I would ask you to take a literature course to expand your critical thinking and analytical skills. Because it would make no sense. Like he might for like half a second, but then he's gonna turn around.

Anyway. If you want a piece of advice, the only advice I can give you is to not engage and let it roll off your back. You're welcome to come here and bitch if you want. As I am the Hate Crepus corner. And I'd say I'd warmed up the Kaeya but honesty I think I've just warm up to how *I* write him which is different.

On a positive note, I'm working on a theory that Jason Todd and Diluc Ragnvindr are Lesbian Wraith characters. No, I will not explain at this time.

[sporkberries]

Hello! Do you have any recommendations for Roy Harper reading? I'm not bothered about which continuity or where, just if you had a suggestion for where you think he's best 👀

If you wanna go back to some older stuff you can check out the silver age green arrow comics and Teen Titans 1966, I'm not the BIGGEST fan of TT 1966 but it does have some cute and funny moments. I mainly read Bronze Age to Modern age so we'll go with that moving forward. Green Lantern(1960) #85-86 This is Snow Birds don't fly and Roy's most iconic story, It introdcues Roy's struggle with heroin and is pretty sympathetic to addicts which was QUITE the big deal at the time. I also think its important for to me say Ollie is not the best parent in this one, he reacts out of anger and is incredibly upset with both Roy and himself for Roy's addiction. OLLIE DOES LOVE ROY AND IS USUALLY QUITE A GOOD PARENT, THIS IS ONE MOMENT THAT DOES NOT DEFINE HIM OR HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ROY. MUST READ not just for Roy but for comic book history in general Action Comics(1939) #32 This one is a small one shot thats post snowbirds. Roy is on his own but it shows that he and Ollie still care about eachother and that Ollie really misses Roy. The New Titans(1984) #20-21 THE REVEAL OF LIAN'S EXISTENCE !!!!! ALSO JADEROY!! also itty bitty robin Jason is in this story. ABSOLUTE MUST READ Action Comics(1938) #613-618 I LOVE THIS STORY I LOVE THIS STORY I LOVE THIS STORY. It hurts me but i love it... Jade and Roy and Lian... It also shows how Roy ended up getting Lian. other than that I will say no more... ABSOLUTE MUST READ Titans(1999) #1-2 Lot's of Cute content with Roy and Lian here. I wouldn't consider it an absolute must read but again its fucking adorable so i recommend it. Titans(1999) #6 Donna Kyle and Roy beat up a Nazi with a tragic backstory or whatever, meanwhile Lian is being babysit by someone her mom has personally affected.

Titans(1999) #8-13 JADEROY!!! JADEROY!!!! LIAN!!!! Deals with the aftermath of the previous rec. Also some DonnaRoy which is admittedly cute. This story kinda covers all the moral complications of Roy and Jade and Lian. How Jade's crimes affect them all, as well as how Roy feels about Jade. I would consider this one a must read. Titans(1999) #21-22 Aftermath of previous rec, Chesire is being held to be tried. I realize a lot of these recs are relate to JadeRoy and Lian but they are so important to his character. If you enjoyed the previous story read this one, but i wouldn't recommend it in a vacuum. Titans(1999) #30 More JadeRoy, I am predictable. This is Jade's trial. If you like the previous two storylines read this. It makes me sad it makes me emo I love Jade so much and she went through so much and it doesnt excuse here actions but it still hurts. Roy makes a decision. Roy appears prominently in The Outsiders but i haven't read it all yet so i can't speak on it. Green Arrow(2001) 1-10 This is an ArrowFam MUST READ. Ollie returns from the dead, mia is introduced, Ollie and Connor, and Ollie reuinites with Roy and Dinah. It's very good. Green Arrow(2001) #16-21 General ArrowFam goodness. Ollie and Roy Goodness. Just,,, emotions.... Ollie is Roy''s dad... I weep...

Justice Leauge of America(2006) #1 Roy and his Uncle Hal :). Also Roy joins the JLA

There's more probably but this list is getting pretty full. These are also all in chronological order so :333. as a sort of anti- recommendation if you want to read an absolutely awful roy that is horrible in every way and want to be mad about it read rhato. its awful!

[damianbugs]

For the ask game, #3 for Jason Todd??

3. Least favorite canon thing about this character?

now i do want to preface this by saying my least favourite canon thing about jason isn't entirely jason's fault, and can be better explained of writers just doing whatever the fuck they want or using him as a device to extrapolate a very simplified view of another character (usually bruce) (more on that later). unfortunately however, since it's a character trend that has been repeated so many times, and the question is specifically about canon, it is a big part of his character.

and so my least favourite canon thing about jason is that... he's still around. what i mean by that is: time and time again, the story sets up a problem, a conflict, one that puts jason at odds with batman and/or gotham (two things that are connected whether you like it not) — and then a massive fight. a huge fallout. hurtful words are exchanged, a couple fists, maybe an exploding building or two.

you think woah, that was harsh and unhealthy, surely we won't see them hanging out with each other anytime soon.

then, it happens again.

next story, next conflict, next fight. jason usually gets the short end of the stick, because a batman who loses to his "greatest failure" is not a batman editorial want to sell, and also because in a lineup of characters were the worth of their existence is based on the moral conjugation with other characters, its very easy and usually not a emotional problem to kick the odd one out. red hood is cool enough to fight batman and really mean it, but not cool enough to win the actual battle.

it's come to the point where just the leak of jason in a new bat story makes me roll my eyes. even today, with the leaks of batman #145, all i could think was well, here we go again i guess.

so the most irritating thing is that jason still kicks around with the batfam. if you ask me, this unfixable break between him and bruce should have been established in Under the Red Hood (i have a really long essay post about that... somewhere tumblr tags will not allow me to find). if not then, then Battle for The Cowl (as horrendous of a story that it was) should have solidified the conflict between him and the others. it's because jason is still a character with (alleged) bonds to batman and nightwing etc, that dc gives us repetitive moments like the ones in Rhato, Batman and Robin (2011), Gotham War etc.

his character has remained annoyingly stagnant for this reason. he can't ever be a character cool enough to win the battle if he's always used as the Batman Your No Kill Rule Sucks also You Made Me This Way and I Do What You Can't (proceeds to not do anything all that different) conversational piece.

i don't say all this without some irrational hope that one say someone who actually likes Jason Todd enough to think about his character in any emotional capacity takes over. i do however say this with the acceptance that the one tweet that said "Nothing fans say about Jason Todd was actually ever written on a piece of paper published by Dc comics" was very correct.

to end happily, Red Hood: The Hill is his solo series away from the others! so! here's to hoping!

[aalghul]

Nice post about Roy I like how kind your response was. But yeah as a Roy fan I find the idea that he would hate anyone but the man who killed his daughter to be silly. Cause like thing is Roy has a line till he doesn’t. Like you said Roy draws a line for himself with Cheshire but he never ever 100 percent commits. Even after the bombing and her holding a gun to Lian and threatening to shoot her while trying to escape prison, in his time with the League he still is hinted to love her and still lets Lian visit her. Flash forward to now they are still on again off again lovers/enemies. The old Titans ‘Roy breaks up with Cheshire’ story was written like it was the full end of their relationship but DC loves that concept and in comics they will always come back.

With Mia or people hurting his family Roy would not care at the end of the day unless that family member died sorry. Roy forgave a woman who babysat Lian and helped terrorists kidnap her and then broke his leg in an attempt to kill Cheshire. No he didn’t just forgive her he offered to let her keep babysitting Lian saying he didn’t think he had the right to judge anyone.

People other than Roy say he belongs in the light but Roy kind of hates that about himself and actively denies and resists it because he thinks the dirty work is the real important work. He worked in fantasy superhero CIA for years and even killed for them, left and made the Outsiders, initially didn’t want to leave and basically stayed till the last second till his mental health gave in, joined the League and didn’t actually have a great time with the group or ever really believe he belonged, had a horrible ending with that group and became a straight up villain after the ROA fiasco and worked on a team of villains all of whom except Slade he expressed some sort of sympathy for.

Roy just doesn’t give up on people and kind of really wants to do antihero work and tries to again and again. The age/maturity thing kind of gets it but that only matters where you connect Roy and Jason, they are peers and work together in some fashion off screen for a year in Outsiders, put a ROA recovering villain Roy with really any post UTRH Jason save Morrison Jason and you could write an intergenerational friendship arc easy.

People forget but before 52 first started a lot of people wanted a Jason Roy book. It was floated around as an idea for ages and rumor was even Winick made a pitch but can’t confirm. When 52 was first announced a lot of people thought not only that RHATO made sense and only Kory didn’t belong but thought the comic had real potential. And really it might have since Roy and Cheshire at one point would not have made sense for either character and notably everything about their relationship happened off screen. We give things a pass because of how well the stories are written. I think most issues with comics are people moralizing about the characters and saying they would never do this or that when 9 times out of 10 the writer just shat over the execution of a concept and the writing as is was shit.

-- i’m just going to include my thoughts down here --

I agree with everything you said about Roy just not being the person who holds a lot of hatred for people. He comes off as strict and even angry sometimes, but at heart, he’s one of the most understanding characters.

I always took Roy’s failed attempts at being an anti-hero as proof that it’s not what he’s meant to do. He keeps trying because he sees his sympathy and desire to do more as a sign that he needs to get his hands dirtier, but each time leaves him with the realization that he can’t be doing that type of work. He was reluctant to leave the Outsiders because he didn’t want to abandon them, that’s why he does leave as soon as Ollie provides funding for them (which he also does specifically because he knows Roy wouldn’t leave, no matter how much he wanted to, otherwise). The Outsiders did end in Roy himself realizing he couldn’t stay there.

I think Roy has always worked best in the various Titans teams he’s been part of. Unfortunately, Teen Titans (2003) set a new status quo with enough of the original Titans leaving and the team working under the leadership of younger members even when more experienced Titans were present. So we could never really go back to the titans as they were in any of the iterations prior to that.

I don’t think Jason and Roy worked together for a whole year; it was just Jason reaching out to Dick, and then subsequently teaming up with him and Roy to give them information of Black Lightning. Which definitely worked to let Roy know the type of person that Jason is (i.e. not a villain), but it was also very much through Dick, so it would again be a reminder of the time that Jason, as a child, teamed up with Roy and the others. Roy’s affinity to taking a guiding role when he works with team members significantly younger than him is just such an important part of who he is that I can’t get past it. I don’t mean to say that Roy’s going to treat Jason like a child, but that there’s going to be a significant gap between their friendship as compared to the friendship that post-flashpoint gave them. Roy is just at a completely different stage from Jason, who is essentially just beginning to catch up on life as a teenager. That difference can’t be ignored easily.

I didn’t read comics back then (and was also a very little kid lol) so I didn’t know about that being something people wanted back then! It must be disappointing to see how it’s turned out.

At the end of the day, I personally think that Roy and Jason could work together very well short-term, and then it would have to end in them walking their separate ways because Roy can never stay in the dark too long, whether he admits it or not. I get what you’re saying about good execution making all the difference, though! I just want to stay as consistent to Roy’s character as possible, so Jason and Roy as best friends/a long-term anti-hero duo never quite works out.

[spiritsglade]

15 and 16 for dick or bruce?

[character ask game]

15 & 16 are the fav/least fav ship questions and. well.

i'm gonna be so for real i don't really know that much about dick or bruce canonically outside their relationship to jason (because i sure have a favorite) and the immediate batfam. i don't engage with dc ship content very often. so i'm just gonna speedrun vaguely the ships i have opinions on off the top of my head, based on what are mostly first impressions.

bruce

batcat - they're fine. cute. the part where bruce reveals his identity to her in hush was very nice!! made me care about them for a bit even though i was only reading that comic for jason lol. unfortunately i like a different 'i am the vengeance of the night' vigilante and his catgirl girlfriend better. im sorry selina kyle and bruce wayne you have nothing on those like... 3 panels of marc spector and greer grant nelson i am rotating around in my brain daily

brutalia - very interesting to me!! particularly from talia's side where she has to choose between loyalty to her father and how much she cares about bruce. the fact they can't ever have something stable and long term is what makes them compelling. i am ignoring whatever the fuck morrison did to talia

superbat - fun. they're cute. think it's the bruce ship i've seen the most fan content of. i think i like clois more but i am capable of multishipping.

i saw some funny panels of him failing to date vicki vale once. that was entertaining

batjokes - someone tagged a post of mine that was not even about them with the ship one time so now i just hate them regardless of justification. i don't know what the appeal is i assume it's some unhealthy fucked up corruption arc thing. good for you i guess but personally i am blowing up the joker forever and killing him with hammers.

dick

birdflash - i have read a couple fics with them i think but it's been several months at this point. they're cute. i feel like i know nothing about wally after all of those fics. victim of a bat-centric fandom i fear

dickbabs - i like them in a 'they were never gonna work out in a long term' way. i think that's interesting. the love was there but they have changed so much that they can't be together in that way anymore. it's a special kind of bond you develop after that, i think.

him with kori - don't know much about them. kori misses him in rhato and it made me feel emotions beyond deep and unabiding hatred for the writer, which is more than the writing in that run usually does for me. i've seen enough that i'm curious enough to check out more.

read a couple dickroy fics that i liked once. they have something complicated going on, from the looks of it. good for them.

i do not ship him with catalina just to be entirely clear. but i did actually read the nightwing comics post 93, unlike the rest of his canon content. his absolutely horrendous mental health during this era was so interesting and i wish it was explored further. i feel like with comics it is so easy for the reader to just go along with dick's 2 billion facades over his real feelings. i wish we saw those real feelings a lil more. as a treat.

[roseworth]

You are both an Arrowfamily and Jason Todd fan account so I thought you would be the best person to ask this but: What do you think the Arrowfamily members opinion on Jason are?

ooooh i love this question.. i think a lot of people jump straight to "they would hate him" because of his fight with mia but!!! i don't think thats entirely true!!!!! some of them would hate him but not all of them </3 i feel like the people that claim they would all hate him have a fundamental misunderstanding of the arrows and what they stand for, not to mention deliberately misconstruing what the the jason & mia fight actually was and pretending it was a lot worse than what actually happened. but thats just my opinion

ollie absolutely would hate him though lmao. he would never get over the fact that jason kidnapped, fought, & tried to blow up his daughter. no forgiveness ever. if jason HADNT fought mia though i think ollie would like him or at the very least tolerate him. ollie very clearly has no issue with murdering bad guys (as seen in ga88) and would be completely on board with anyone who goes out of his way to fuck with batman constantly <3 also in my humble opinion ollie shouldve been a cosmic mistake in countdown due to him coming back to life because parallax put him back together, which would have been hilarious and would absolutely have ended in them getting along (until jason goes through like his fifth breakdown in that book, because he would absolutely lash out at ollie after watching that one version of bruce die. but thats a whole separate tangent)

dinah also would hate him for trying to kill mia, but probably not as intensely as ollie. but even without that issue i dont think dinah would like him, mostly because hes the worst and i dont think dinah would have the patience to put up with him. she wouldnt have a huge problem with the killing (she wouldnt NOT have a problem with it but i really dont think it would be an unforgivable issue for her), but she would just think hes kind of an asshole about it and she wouldnt like him at all. i also think theres a panel somewhere where jason says that dinah told him she hates him personally?? idk ive only seen screenshots of it but i think its funny so im incorporating it into my belief system

with roy... i feel like there are so many people that see rhato and swing to the opposite side of the pendulum and say that roy would hate jason but i dont think thats true at all. im a rhato hater because that is Not Roy so we're disregarding that, but i still think they would get along tbh! given that roy is deeply in love with a serial killer i think that the people who say he would hate jason are misunderstanding who roy is. i think when theyre both in character they actually have personalities that would mesh well together and they COULD get along really well. i dont see roy having a Big Problem with jason killing people (he would try to stop him from doing it but murder wouldnt be a dealbreaker for roy) so i think its fair to say they would actually get along!!! but i bitch and complain every time they show up in the same panel because now the damage has been done from rhato so i dont want them to interact in canon. only in the secret world in my head. in regards to jason fighting mia, i dont know how to say it but,,, i dont think roy would have a huge issue with it. he certainly wouldnt be happy about it but also he wasnt there so i feel like all he would know about it was that jason kidnapped mia one time but mia was fine. honestly i think that he would be more interested in brothers in blood bc dick would def mention that jason murdered people in a nightwing costume then turned into a tentacle monster and tried to eat someone but dick forgave him anyway. and once he hears that suddenly the mia thing seems inconsequential in comparison

with connor... i cant lie im a little biased because connor is a member of my dream outlaws team but i really think they would at least kind of get along! connor is not the type of person to hold a grudge at all so once mia forgives him (which ill get into in a sec) connor wouldnt have a problem with him. he WOULD have a problem with jason killing people but he's close with eddie so clearly he doesnt have that much of an issue with working with people who have killed before as long as they dont kill in front of him. and i think that jason has a healthy respect for anyone who can beat him in a fight and because of that he would not kill anyone when hes around connor. i also think that connor and jason would never fight because connor would never throw the first punch and jason would never start a fight that he knows he cant win (but thats once again a whole separate tangent). basically i dont think they'd be besties or anything, i dont think theres a world where they'd ever even consider themselves friends. but i do think they'd get along well enough to not hate each other

okay now finally mia. kind of a controversial take but i really think she'd forgive him for kidnapping her! she absolutely would not forgive him IMMEDIATELY because it fucked her up so she would be pissed about it for a while, but also? i think she completely understood what he was trying to do. he wasnt really hurting her specifically (like yeah he hurt her but he made it a fair fight and he wasnt beating down on her or anything. she also hit him so it evens out) and he was actually trying to talk TO her and relate to her. and it was working!!! he didnt force her to do anything except fight (in a fight where he untied her and gave her her weapons), so once she got some distance from the event i think she'd forgive him. it would take a while for her to actually forgive him enough for them to actually get along, but i genuinely think they would. theyre extremely similar people and i think they would really be good friends if given the chance, but it would take a looooong time for mia to be comfortable enough to be around him enough to consider him a friend since the fight definitely fucked her up. but it is possible for them to eventually be close, and i think they could be really good friends

honorable mentions: - i dont know emiko well enough to know for sure (i havent read new52 or rebirth green arrow so i havent read much with her </3) but from what i know i think they would get along - lian would have no opinion of him whatsoever. at most she sees him as her uncle's brother. i truly dont think she'd care enough about him to form a positive or negative opinion about him - i dont like sienna so i dont want to acknowledge her but for the sake of the post. she doesnt like jason because dinah doesnt like jason and she says "i hate everyone that black canary hates <3" - cissie is not a member of the arrowfamily but she wouldnt like him because she absolutely would have an issue with any murderous vigilante given that she almost killed someone one time and had a huge breakdown, so anyone that kills people for the Greater Good and continues to do so would not sit right with her - i have absolutely no basis for this but shado would hate him for no reason. no specific beef with him about his morals or his actions, she just wouldnt like his vibes. sorry to talk about rose (no im not) but she would see rose hanging out with jason and go "im so happy for you and your ugly fucking boyfriend im serious" - eddie and jason would get along like a housefire. there is not a doubt in my mind that they would bond instantly (ok not instantly because they both hate everyone and would probably start with trying fight each other. THEN they would bond) and it would be catastrophic for everyone involved 🫶

ok i think thats everyone. or at least everyone that matters. never forget that all my opinions are 100% correct at all times

[thequiver]

You know more about the arrowfam than I do so I hope you don’t mine me redirecting this question. I recently met a person in class that also likes DC and we started talking about opinions on characters, designs, ships, etc. I said they I didn’t like RHATO especially the characterization of Roy and Kori. They were shocked to hear that I didn’t like Jayroy cause in their opinion it’s a well written friendship that benefited both characters and it leading to a romantic relationship seems like the natural course. I explained further and when I brought up what Jason did to Mia they said “Well isn’t that hypocritical? Cheshire has hurt more of Roy’s family members and I don’t hear you complaining about their relationship.” I don’t know much about Roy, only what I’ve read in the Green Arrow (2001) and I don’t think I know enough to answer that. I do know that his relationship with Cheshire is much deeper and complicated than his with Jason and her being the mother of their child is likely playing a role in all this.

So the question is, what is the difference between Cheshire and Jason and the things they’ve done, and why is one ship in character but the other isn’t?

Well one ship doesn’t rely on a characterization that is based entirely around painting Roy as an idiot and making his entire character revolve around his addiction…… so that’s a start.

But like so genuinely I would LOVE to know what members of the Arrowfam they think Jade has hurt because like she’s interacted with like……. Dinah and that’s IT aside from Roy and Lian. And Jade has tried to become a civilian in order to be a better mother and is often the target of explicitly racist writing (hi Gail Simone, I hate you so much Gail Simone).

Like I’m just not following their logic-

Jade and Roy have a complicated past and Jade has been shown ON PAGE to want out so that she can be the mom she wants to be- her dreams are of domesticity and of being with her daughter (and son). She is not without a code and we can see how Wang Chen uses her and seeks to control her. And they do pretty successfully coparent.

Jason has a bag of heads and treats Roy like shit. Roy met him like ONCE Preboot and barely knew his name and was focused on Jade and finding out he was a dad the whole time.

Also as a Jason fan- who are you interacting with that thinks RHatO is good Jason writing? Or good writing in general?

[rolling-in-guano]

31DOD Day 7

I've been reading fan fiction for so many years in so many different places that is hard to track down all the good stuff. Here is a sampling of fics I've enjoyed more recently:

1. "Got Stepped On All Over" by whaleofatime

Probably one of my favorites of all time at this point. This story feels like it could be a one shot that really exists within the DC universe. The story focuses on Dick and Bruce's relationship and is told from Bruce's perspective (also done really well). The story also has a tight plot that involves solving a mystery (more mysteries please!) that is wrapped up in a fun way. I also love a little bit of Carmen Sandiego in all of my stories in the way that I want characters to go to a place an learn something cool about it's culture/geography/history and then use that to save the day or make the story more interesting. This has that! GIVE THIS STORY MORE LOVE!!!!

2. "New year bets" by Fleur_de_Violette

I love this fic because it really shows off Dick's workaholic nature in a way that feels very true to the comics and his Bludhaven days. It also has a fun relationship between him and Jason. I felt it put the characters in a direction that could lead to character growth if this were a oneshot in an actual comic. Loved it!

3. "i was not born to drown" by daringyounggrayson

Dick Grayson's poor skull has been abused pretty badly. This fic takes a look into the aftermath of Dick getting shot in the head by Dr. Hurt (which really was glossed over) and how he deals with the healing process. The way daringyounggrayson depicts chronic pain and disability was really heart wrenching because the frustration coming from everyone was hitting home. Overall, the fic deals with accepting a new normal and I enjoyed it.

4. "Picture Me Better" by Led_Sneakers

This lovely work shows the friendship (and romantic/sexual tension) I have been missing between Dick and Roy. Their relationship was always incredibly interesting, especially in the Titans and Outsiders era. I love their old married couple vibe. Whether they end up lifelong friends or partners, their relationship is way interesting. The RHATO series really did him and Kory dirty. I think Rose Wilson and Jason should hang out. I also didn't hate the Dark Trinity but they put the kibosh on that too quickly for it to really go anywhere.

5. RedAlert98

For you Young Justice cartoon fans, this was one of my favorite authors when that show was coming out. All the fics are fun and are about friendship! RedAlert98 appears to be retired from the DC fandom, but their work is still pretty awesome so I encourage you to take a look.

6. "And Just For Tonight" by Mashpotatoe Queen

Another Young Justice cartoon fic that was my favorite back when it was first published. It's just a sweet little fic that gives Dick and Roy a more brotherly dynamic.

Well those are my top picks for this post :)

[geekthefreakout]

Thank you for your "we need to combat people's black and white views in media” post. It’s nice to see someone have a reasonable opinion about something. I feel like a lot of DC comic spaces have the most bizarre takes and honestly think it’s why the state of comics is so bad right now and writers are afraid to take chances or write things that are so generic.

Do you have any unpopular opinions about Babs or Jason? Or anything you would like to see in future comics? You said you enjoyed Jason as a character but what’s your ideal Jason and how do you think he should be written?

Wow, what a lovely ask, thank you Nonny!

First, cuz I know I'm gonna ramble on about the other things- yes, DC is a goddamn mess and at least 48% of the reason is that fans feel especially entitled these days, which makes writers either overly cautious or extremely defensive of anything they try. Fandom spaces can get very toxic very quickly cuz of the whole black-and-white morality thing and the aforementioned entitlement that makes people feel like they get to dictate the direction the art they consume takes. You don't get to do that, people! Stop it.

For Babs- idk if I have unpopular opinions. Like most people, I think she was wonderful and *important* as Oracle, and I wish they would do more than pay lip service to her disability. On the other side of that, I understand that DC Editorial is a mess and that if a writer ever DOES decide to follow through on that "chip in her spine won't work forever" thing, they will need to cut through a lot of red tape to get permission to do so, so I don't really get mad when writers have her as Batgirl still, or have her bounce between Batgirl and Oracle. If she ever does become a full time wheelchair user again, I hope it's done in a respectful way that supports her agency, rather than how TKJ did her. The Young Justice show had an interesting take on that which I didn't mind.

My unpopular Jason opinion is probably that I liked the All-Caste stuff from RHATO N52 and I think letting Jason have a niche as a Bat that deals with mystical stuff and with the nitty-gritty of the criminal underground is a good way to set him apart and give him his own stuff to do outside of Bat Events. Also Generation Outlaw was a cool concept and I enjoy the idea of Jason reluctantly inheriting Bruce's tendency towards "Debatably Accidental Child Acquisition."

That said, my ideal Jason functions as a foil to Batman. I don't want them to be enemies, but I do want them to push each other and challenge each other. I want Jason to poke holes in Bruce's crime fighting philosophy, but to also still have a good relationship with his family. I want Jason to struggle with his own philosophy, as he did in Zdarsky's "Cheer" story, because the way he does things IS riskier than how Bruce does things and sometimes the ends don't justify the means.

I think Jason (like Damian, but Jason is more mature) works wonderfully in stories about redemption and self-discovery as well. Task Force Z had appeal for me in that sense, because I also think that Two-Face (who Jason has history with in his first post-crisis story) ALSO works well in story lines like that.

In the future... Well, my opinion is that there are just too many Bat books and Bat Events. I want DC to let their other characters breathe. My ideal set up would be Batman as a solo series and Tec as a team book, like it was when Tynion wrote it. Then Urban Legends for miscellaneous Bat stories. Nightwing of course with his solo (and please, PLEASE, let that boy stay in Bludhaven and take care of business, stop dragging him back to Gotham every time a rogue sneezes, he has his own shit to worry about). The rest of the Batfam can pop up in Tec and Urban Legends and then be with their respective teams. Titans, YJ, Outlaws, Outsiders, etc. (ETA BoP to this potential team book list of course!)

And then pls no huge Bat Events for at least a year and a half. Let them BREATHE, for fuck's sake!!!!

So... Yeah! Thanks Nonny!