#publishing discourse

[haru-kuneko]

@xiranjayzhao Yes, it makes me feel better! To me, I never saw it as discouraging when you shared your experiences about getting your book published. In fact, it was quite informative! I even tried playing it countless times to see what was wrong but there was nothing!

As an amateur writer myself, I'd consider heeding your advice knowing fully well you're a well-seasoned writer with much more experience than I. Whoever those authors are remind me of those young writers who'd get mad upset at you for speaking the truth. It is surprising to see these supposedly professional authors are missing the point of the video.

How is informing people about how difficult the publishing scene is considered preventing competition? Do they expect to hear something like "Oh, actually it's super easy for everyone to get published and become an overnight success! Just believe in yourself!"? Because a lot of authors would also tell you the same thing.

I decided to reblog this as, while I'm not trying to take away from the conversation, it reminded me of the time I once told my readers about the same thing and almost lost half of my audience in the process.

By the way, congrats on the movie deal! I can’t wait to see it on the big screen. Wishing you more success in the future ★彡

Got accused by other authors of trying to deliberately discourage aspiring writers to "thin [my] competition" by being too honest about my bad experiences with publishing and how it's a business first and foremost that does not hold book quality as its #1 priority so here's a generic "CHASE YOUR DREAMS!!" video I guess

[an-ruraiocht]

but what would I know I'm only a former bookseller and librarian who works in children's publishing and has multiple close friends who are authors (including YA authors)

[oidheadh-con-culainn]

i have so many opinions about how popular discussions about publishing misrepresent how it works but it's really hard to talk about them without saying more about my day job than i am comfortable doing on here

but the short version is that the idea that you have to be an influencer to get a (fiction) book deal is absolute 100% bullshit (nonfic is a different kettle of fish and one I'm less qualified to talk about). also a vast amount of it all is luck, but sometimes that luck is about being in the right place at the right time, which means yes, the whole system is biased towards people who can, for example, go to book launches and events and get chatting to editors who will later be interested in their work, which means there are major geographical biases as well as people needing to know enough to know those events are happening at all

and THAT accounts for way more selection bias than how many twitter followers someone has. given that a very large proportion of the published authors that i know didn't even have a twitter account when they got their book deal, or if they did, had <500 followers (the majority of them still don't have TikTok, either)

there are structural problems in this industry but the idea that you need 10k social media followers to get an agent (categorically untrue) ain't actually one of them, so stop talking horseshit and let's talk about the ACTUAL issues, like the median income for primary occupation authors in the UK being £7k/yr, aka less than half minimum wage

[malcolmschmitz]

So, there's a dirty little secret in indie publishing a lot of people won't tell you, and if you aren't aware of it, self-publishing feels even scarier than it actually is.

There's a subset of self-published indie authors who write a ludicrous number of books a year, we're talking double digit releases of full novels, and these folks make a lot of money telling you how you can do the same thing. A lot of them feature in breathless puff pieces about how "competitive" self-publishing is as an industry now.

A lot of these authors aren't being completely honest with you, though. They'll give you secrets for time management and plotting and outlining and marketing and what have you. But the way they're able to write, edit, and publish 10+ books a year, by and large, is that they're hiring ghostwriters.

They're using upwork or fiverr to find people to outline, draft, edit, and market their books. Most of them, presumably, do write some of their own stuff! But many "prolific" indie writers are absolutely using ghostwriters to speed up their process, get higher Amazon best-seller ratings, and, bluntly, make more money faster.

When you see some godawful puff piece floating around about how some indie writer is thinking about having to start using AI to "stay competitive in self-publishing", the part the journalist isn't telling you is that the 'indie writer' in question is planning to use AI instead of paying some guy on Upwork to do the drafting.

If you are writing your books the old fashioned way and are trying to build a readerbase who cares about your work, you don't need to use AI to 'stay competitive', because you're not competing with these people. You're playing an entirely different game.

[mxxnlightwriting]

I'd like to add to this discourse the weight TikTok and other social media are having on the way books are getting acquired by major publishers.

I have recently seen a trend on social media of books (mostly "spicy romances") by self-published authors who get very popular on these social media platforms and whose books quickly get agent representation and are acquired by major publishers.

Mind you, a lot of these books don't change that much between the self-published and the traditional published versions. What changes is sometimes cover details, some editing within the book, but that's it.

I want to make it clear that this post is not aimed at these authors (they should do what feels right for them, of course), but it begs the question of: what are these big publishers actually doing.

They're not going through major edits. (People already know the story.) They're not making a cover from scratch. (The cover already exists.) They're not even marketing these books. (There's already an audience built in when they are acquired!) I know these publishers are now supporting the costs of distribution/printing and probably getting the book translated and all that, but do you see where I am going with this?

The authors are probably not benefitting from this as much as they should. By the time these books are acquired, they probably already recouped the costs of self-publishing (I hope), but I doubt that the money the publisher would have spent with editing/marketing/design costs is being paid to these authors. This is an assumption on my part, obviously, as I have no insider knowledge of how the publishing industry negotiates these kinds of contracts, but I can't help but be worried for these authors (who, I hope, have agents who have their best interests in mind) and also all those authors who are querying to get an agent to represent them. Correct me if I am wrong, though.

Yes, a lot of these authors do get a deal to publish one or more books traditionally that haven't been published yet, but the publishers have very little to worry about. These authors are already known! They have a fanbase that will buy whatever they put out. They won't have to market whatever the book is as aggressively because it will sell.

This is an issue on so many levels because if this is how we'll see most books get acquired by these major publishers, then this is a problem for diversity, representation, types of stories available and so much more.

Besides, it's not just books that are already self-published that are getting picked up by agents in this manner. I was following an author a while back on Insta whose book that they were going to self-publish was on pre-order on Amazon and was getting major traction on Twitter, Instagram (and I assume TikTok), all because of the feedback people were leaving in these places from ARC reviews of said book. The author went radio-silent for a while, took down their pre-order campaign, and a few days later announced the books (they sold the one they were going to self-publish and another new one) would be published by a major publisher sometime in the next year. All because of the buzz and engagement this book was having from ARC reviews.

Now, as I said, these books tend to be "spicy romances", so I don't think this should be generalised to other genres. However, I think this opens a huge precedent for the publishing industry, especially if other genres start to catch on to what is happening with this specific genre. If agents start to look for self-published books that are already successful to try and sell to big publishers, then what does this do to all the authors who are querying and who want to get traditionally published? Or authors whose voices are often unrepresented and whose stories are not easily marketable on social media?

Is the underlying message "self-publish your books and market them yourself until you grow an audience (and hype!) and then we'll consider representing you?" I hope not.

I seriously hope not.

me making sure i shake my head in disgust as i walk past booktok tables in bookshops

[amywritesthings]

writers! do not! owe you! updates!

this is not tiktok. we are not content mills. we are posting our stories -- oftentimes short story or novel-length -- for FREE.

free. adverb / without cost or payment.

you get these stories (not content, they are actual stories people write out of their own blood, sweat, and tears) without having to pay a singular fee or monetary transaction. these authors often have day jobs or university or both. they even have families! children! pets! social lives! if we have other things going on or simply do not have the brain power, then we do not owe you our time nor our energy for updating our stories or wips or ideas we throw onto the dash or ao3.

i am fortunate that i haven't gotten a demanding anon in a minute, but i am so sick of watching my mutual writers get harassed about their update schedules. the ironic part is that you're only making us not want to write said update when you demand more. not ask, not hope, but demand.

learn some empathy, and above all else: learn to be less of an anonymous coward demanding someone's free time for yourself.

[frances-kafka]

For much of my life, so much media was made by men. Men with working class and military backgrounds. Chain smoking war veterans and high school diploma engineers and sleaze writers. Journalists who were 20th century journalists and not 21st century journalists. Men who were actually pretty familiar and relatable because they're like guys in my family.

This made me think, you know what would be great, if women made some of this stuff too. One day, feminism will win. We will get to be in the public sphere just like these same men. And now women do all of these things! Women with MFAs.

[nevermeyers]

There's absolutely no way people are now saying that all the gege-hate train is just an internal joke of the fandom. There's no way you're this out of touch with what has been happening.

I've been in the fandom since 2020 and it doesn't take a lot of smarts to see there's been a change in tone in the way some people say that in the last year. Since this new arc of history began, destructive criticism, massive hate and threats have overflowed into hundreds of profiles. It's no longer "oh, I hate Gege akutami" now and for a while now it's "I hate Gege akutami - his manga is horrible I'm gonna drop it (they never do) - he doesn't deserve popularity - he doesn't know how to write - he pretends to have an illness."

And yet, it's not normal to make jokes about wanting to kill someone, hon. Go check yourself if you find that funny, you're no better than let's-joke-about-sensitive-issues reddit incels

[bookwyrminspiration]

It's fun to bemoan the odd lines and such, and I was gonna make a joke, but I do think it is genuinely sad how much of Unraveled's promo is leaning so heavily into shipping.

Not because I hate sokeefe or Keefe, but because this is such a massively popular story that has so much to offer outside of a single ship, and it's such a disservice to the years of work Shannon has put in to crafting these characters' stories and world. And to the countless fans who adore the story and characters outside of this single ship.

Both Sophie and Keefe are more than sokeefe, and the way this story about injustice, and rebellion, and loss of self, and grief is being overshadowed by a relationship? See the kiss scene! sokeefe art! foster-related quote! These things themselves aren't bad, but there's no balance; they should be part of more, not the whole thing. KOTLC deserves to retain its complexity in marketing! The readers, including young, deserve to have the story not watered down for them when it's being pushed!

There's also something about how publishers told Shannon KOTLC wouldn't sell because Sophie's a girl, and she pushed through that, only for Sophie to become almost an accessory to Keefe's story here? Making appearances that focus on what Keefe thinks of her instead of Sophie herself. I don't have this fully articulated, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at

Shannon's said for years she hates love triangles, didn't mean to write one, and tries to stay firmly Team Sophie. And I believe her, which makes it worse seeing how despite Shannon's efforts, her story about a brave, stubborn, reckless, passionate girl trying to find herself and do what she can to right the wrongs she sees in the world is getting pared down to a love story.

Now we do have six more weeks to go, so we could get some variety in the future. it's just frustrating so far, and as fun as it is to make silly little jokes about it, I do think there is a genuine critique here of publishing and marketing and treatment of female led stories (yes, unraveled is about keefe, but Keeper is about Sophie), and I wanted to say something

[renthony]

Sometimes I have to forcibly remind myself that I have been keeping up with the publishing & entertainment industries since I was 13, and that I started writing freelance for extra pocket money when I was still in high school. I was reading industry news, I was talking to industry professionals online and in-person, I was taking every possible step to become a worker in the field.

"How do people not know this [niche industry thing]?!" Well, sweetie, not everyone has been paying attention to the industry for over half their life. You read the goddamn trades. Of course you know shit.

Impostor syndrome so strong it makes you forget that you've been working your ass off for your entire goddamn life. Lord.

[xiranjayzhao]

Some truths about the publishing industry because I certainly got blindsided when going in. Now I'm so broken by this industry I struggle to encourage aspiring writers lmao

[an-ruraiocht]

okay. well that's not really a matter of what YA should or should not contain, is it. I am entirely sympathetic to wanting more books without sex but that is completely separate from the issue of what an entire publishing category should or should not contain or how the business works on a market level. in fact relegating non-sex-focused books to YA and sex to adult books only perpetuates the idea that sexual interest=maturity and i just don't think that does anyone any favours on either side of the equation

people will complain about the adultification of YA and then repeatedly misidentify books published and marketed for adults as YA

like no shit this book that was written for adults seems like it was written for adults. that's uh. that's because it was

[chiropteracupola]

guy who doesn't have anything to regret.

[cjlouwho]

I'm personally loving the "He's a Trump supporter" with no proof either. Saw someone mention that his dad and friends are. That's not how that works, if friends are an indicator that someone is a Trump supporter then we definitely have "proof" about who else on the cast is a Trump supporter 🙄.

Will never be over someone telling me Lou was a racist bigot because he kept his father’s name, as though it’s not HIS NAME TOO! People are crazy!

[captainjonnitkessler]

"But don't you think it's insulting that people can just generate some AI slop and call themselves an author?"

Man there's a NYT best-selling author making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of claims that a ghost from the future told him that celery juice cures cancer. On the list of "people who don't deserve success" amateurs fucking around with AI don't even crack my top hundred

[queermania]

the thing is that i used to think the jokes about dean being #acab were funny until i realized people were serious about it. he may not be the bootlicker sam is but he is very much not acab. his issue with the police is not that they're law enforcement. it's that they don't know what he does and often make it harder for him to do his job. the reason i know this is true is because he is fine with cops that are in the know (deacon, victor, donna, jody, etc). that being said, i also find the discourse about dean and sam being cops themselves lacking. i understand where it's coming from but it is missing a crucial point and that point is that sam and dean don't have the authority of a badge and the government behind them. now if you want to have a conversation about the huntercorp!winchesters being cops................