#pre-christian religion

[that-cunning-witch]

Ancient Celtic religion (Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc.) has been and is continuing to be culturally appropriated to absolute filth, but idk if y'all are ready to have that conversation yet

[irelandseyeonmythology]

I think that...you’re not off-base, necessarily, but this is getting into some very, very shaky territory given the nature of the Irish materials we have. I haven’t met any scholar currently in the field who believes there is any hint of a creation story in LGE or the Táin (I have spoken to one who believed that the remscél involving the two bulls was a reflection of the Gundestrup cauldron and had something to do with the constellations, but that was very much much an outlier experience.) These days, I’m lucky to find a scholar who is willing to call the mythological material “mythological.” LGE is overwhelmingly a product of a drive to understand Ireland’s place in the world, starting in about the 9th century with Historia Brittonum and continuing onwards into the 11th/12th centuries (and onwards, given, for example, Geoffrey Keating’s reliance on it). Again, it doesn’t mean that there’s NOTHING mythological in it or the Táin at all, but it means we have to be very careful as far as the context, that I don’t believe any of us are currently looking into them for a creation myth, and there are many, many scholars in the field at the moment who are inclined to disagree with us even on that. (Elizabeth Boyle of Maynooth being one, who is very well respected in the field.) I have gotten into borderline shouting matches with colleagues even in my own department (which didn’t descend *into* shouting matches but some very, very catty comments and death glares) about the validity of applying mythography to myth. This is not to say that I believe that those scholars are incompetent, don’t understand the study of mythology, or are even necessarily WRONG, they are all supremely intelligent and capable in what they do; it’s to say that this is something that is a hotbed in the field and most current scholars will not agree with you on it. As a mythographer currently working in the field, I *have* to be careful with how I discuss these things, because if I go a step too far, people will use it as a way of getting rid of my entire field. 

For an example of Indo-European elements in LGE, specifically relating to Donn and Amairgen, where he points out the Indo-European parallels to figures such as Ymir, Castor and Pollux, Romulus and Remus, etc., I recommend John Carey’s article, “Donn, Amairgen, Íth, and the Pre-History of Irish Pseudohistory”, but he does not necessarily even call it a creation story as such, rather a foundation story that might have some roots in the Indo-European creation myth. Something that myself and my colleague and friend @ad-ciu​ have discussed quite a bit when we’ve discussed the mythology and potential Indo-European connections, and something that Mark Williams brings up, brilliantly, in my opinion, in his book, Ireland’s Immortals, is that...many times, these figures appear to have been regional. Or several regional figures in a trenchcoat. Figures like the Morrígan, the Dagda...potentially did not exist as we know them now. That is to say, as John Carey suggests in that same article, the character of Íth appears as an ancestor to the Erainn people of Ireland, but he possibly (likely?) didn’t have any significance to anyone outside of those groups. The story of Donn and Amairgen, despite everything else...might be an origin story, with pan-Celtic implications (Carey points out some Gaulish cognates), but only for the Gaels. We’re inclined to see “Irish” deities or “Gaelic” deities running around...and they were Irish and they were Gaelic, but they might not have been uniform, and some figures might have fallen together or fallen apart in ways we can’t always account for. (It’s very troubling to look at the Ogham stones, which sometimes do maintain traces of theonyms, and see relatively few recognizable names, very likely regional deities who were either forgotten or merged in with the “big names” that might, in some cases, only reflect who was lucky enough to have some Christian literati living in their region.) All this is to say that caution is vitally important when doing this kind of reconstructive work -- we cannot account for all the variants that likely existed when Ireland was so incredibly regionalized (even moreso than it is now). (Like at least people in Cork and people in Limerick now can agree “fuck Dublin.”) (And at least you HAVE those massive urban centers now instead of túatha of various sizes and ranges of power.)

Do I think that there was an Irish creation myth at all? ...I don’t know, honestly. I don’t think it existed in any single form if it did. But also, at times, I think that we might be chasing after something that...if it did exist, it wasn’t important enough for it to be preserved. The Irish monks were meticulous about staying as true to what they believed the facts were as much as possible, even if those facts jarred with orthodox Christian values (see: The Tuatha Dé as “half fallen angels”, which nearly gave at least one English monk studying the Voyage of St. Brendan a heart attack) -- if they had knowledge of a pagan variation of the creation of the world...I think we’d have stronger evidence for it. We certainly do for the Scandinavian, which was also recorded post-Christianization. Do I think that everyone in pre-Christian Ireland believed the world came from nothing? Not necessarily, but I think that...it might not have been the priority for them that we think it was. Twins might have played a role in it, absolutely. Sometimes, I think that there are too many stories about cities buried beneath the waves across the Celtic literatures for it to be a total coincidence, that there might have been a flood story at some point. It might have involved big name figures like the Dagda, if the Dagda existed in that form. But I think that the Irish view of the creation of the landscape, from what we generally see...it wasn’t in a whole package, it was bit by bit, overtime. The rivers were generally feminine, associated with goddesses, but a rock might be something thrown by a hero (these stories are all over Ireland and Scotland). It feels like the landscape is constantly being invented and re-invented, as oppposed to any uniform creation. (And even with the Dindshenchas tradition, which I definitely believe contains mythological traces for the origins of landscapes...as Marie-Luise Theuerkauf discusses in her book on the Dindshenchas, they do also reflect an interest in the work of Isidore of Seville.) But I don’t think it’s really possible to know, even if I also don’t think it’s inherently unproductive to guess.

I’ll leave it on this note by John Carey on that article I referenced:

“After all of this, what are we left with? A handful of names, a few attributes and sketchy narrative associations, and no certain conclusions. We are, and will almost certainly remain, a long way from being able to reconstruct an archetypal myth of Gaelic origins - even assuming, and this seems to me unlikely, that some single definitive doctrine on this subject ever existed.”

Current brainworm, none of the Celtic cultures' creation myths have survived, even though they almost certainly had one. The closest we have is the Lebor Gabala Erenn from Irish mythology, but it isn't a creation story, it records the various settlements of Ireland, ending in the Gaels. However, it is thought that there are reflections of an earlier creation myth in the LGE and in the Tain, and there are similar themes that validate that the Gaels at least viewed the creation of the landscape in this way from various other stories. Additionally, we can compare other Indo-European creation myths to figure out what elements the Gaelic creation myth almost certainly would have had. These include:

Before creation, there is a void of some kind

In that void, fire interacts with water/ice to create the first life

A primordial bovine, most likely a cow (bulls were more common in IE cultures that emphasized pastoralism over crops. The Romans had a she-wolf, because they had to be edge lords)

One primordial being or possibly a set of twins who are sustained by the milk of the cow

One of the twins/the primordial being is dismembered to create the physical world

So already we have the makings of a general creation story, and if you're familiar with Norse mythologies, you might recognize it. In fact, it's thought that the Norse creation myth has retained the most elements of the original IE myth

However, scholars point out that the primordial being that is killed is called *Yemo, meaning "twin", which means there was likely originally two first beings. In the one sacrificing the other, the act renders the brother doing the sacrificing as the First Priest, who creates the concept of death, but in doing so turns that death into the living world. The sacrificed brother is then typically rendered as the First King and Ruler of the Land of the Dead. By setting up this order for the world, the First Priest establishes that life cannot exist without death (whether it be harvesting crops or butchering livestock), and typically, these myths continue and establish the role of the priests in society, who's job it is to ensure the continuity of the original sacrifice and maintain the living world

Now, here's where we get into my speculation;

I think it's likely that the Irish creation myth involved a set of twins. Off the top of my head, I think that possible reflections of this can be found in the brothers Amergin and Donn and in the Donn Cuailnge and Finnbhennach from the Táin. With Amergin and Donn, Donn insults the goddess of the land and is drowned. In doing so, Donn becomes a god of the dead and all the souls of the dead have to gather at or pass through Tech Duinn. Amergin however, secures the support of these goddesses and is able to go on and give order to the Gaelic rule of Ireland by deciding who will rule what and serves as the Chief Ollam (bard) of Ireland. In the Táin, after the main Plot has gone down, the Donn Cuailnge and Finnbhennach fight and the the Donn Cuailnge ends up killing Finnbhennach. As the Donn Cuailnge passes through the landscape, pieces of Finnbhennach drop off his horns and form/name part of the landscape. I think it's also interesting how in both these stories, one of the duo is explicitly associated with the color white (Amergin is called "white knees") and the other one is dark, but the opposite one dies first in the stories

Also, if we look at myths like the creation of the Shannon and the Boyne rivers, where in the goddesses Sionnan and Boann, respectively, die in the rivers' creations, we further see that the death of one figure to create an element of the landscape is a relatively common one, so a creation story similar to the one I hypothesize the Irish had wouldn't have been outside of pagan Irish belief

Additionally, if we look at the duíle, kind of like the Irish elements/natural features, we see that the nine elements/features are each explicitly associated with body parts. Stone is associated with bones, the sea with blood, the face with the sun, ect. I think this could be a call back to that earlier creation myth

Off the top of my head, that's what I've been mulling over. Idk, I might be completely off the mark, but if anyone wants give their thoughts, I'd love to hear them. I'm certainly not an expert in Irish mythology and there may be some key factor that completely sinks this idea

[yrrtyrrtwhenihrrthrrt]

I think my favorite difference between the comic and movie is that in the movie, they live in an isolationist fortified city and their only concept of religion is regarding Gloreth. They treat her like a God, all the way down to using her name as an expletive.

Meanwhile in the Comic they live in just. A regular medieval (albeit sci-fantasy with modern elements) city 😭 and they celebrate Christmas and it is CALLED Christmas, and they say "God" as an expletive which means that Christianity, and by extension Jesus Christ Himself exist in the canon of the Nimona Comic Universe

[wytchwyse]

Witchcraft Supplies & Occult Publishers

A growing list of resources for Magic.

It is imprtant that we support our occult shops and publishers. but also all relevant supplies are helpful as well.

[talesofwhimsy]

I'm 100 pages into Moby Dick and they just got on the goddamn boat

This book actually kinda fucks hard it's great?

[borealopelta]

wanted to bother my sister with my Folklore Thoughts but she's asleep already. who will listen to my ted talk on the folk tales & myths mashed up in the Altináj books and why they're narratively interesting aside from being generally neat easter eggs :(

[loptrcoptr]

Hi! I'm part of a Norse Pagan group and we(I) were wondering if you would be willing to share your thesis? One of my very good friends is doing a book about the 12 and it would be great to have more information on them, which I know you've mentioned at least one is in there. No pressure and thank you for your time 💜

Of course! My mphil thesis on the ásynjur (in Gylfaginning, specifically) is accessible for anyone on academia.edu and should be free for anyone with a free account. But I haven’t dealt with that site in a while, so if you have any access issues let me know, I’ll see if I can find a way to send you a pdf :)

[magnoliamyrrh]

im always so apprehensive to get into convos w ppl abt religion bc like yes im muslim and yes i was more orthodox for yrs and yes i am very well aware of orthox doctrines and know them but my beliefs are more similar to some wondering sufi going on abt universality and oneness and the truth in all religions. like less muslim like a youtube sheiks less muslim like what your local masjid would accept more muslim like i like to spend my time reading abt saints which traveled countries and peoples wrote about love practicing plenty of religions and cultures and then wrote something abt the oneness of god and were declared heretics.

[wodenscild]

Gods I love stories where the world is destroyed by devotion <3 I love where the religious leaders trying to bring good only brought about pain & suffering to their people <3 I love gods & beings seek selfish ends at the cost of their subjects <3 forever inflicting pain unknowable by those outside the clergy & the church <3 & then there is just an unspeaking protagonist that is like “yep” [slaps knees & gets up] “time to commit heresies, iconoclasms, & blasphemies here before never witnessed”

[july-19th-club]

like ummmmm. one thought that im having. and this is specifically the way i read books about magic. but i am not imagining this as a great struggle between christiandom/romanization and 'old britain'/the green man/enchantment. but the CHARACTERS. at least some of them. are. and i think those are the characters who are most often drawn to the magic, whose lives have been shaped by it, but who have been taught and told that true virtue lies in God and The New World. collum, bedivere, arthur - all a bit out of place by being so determinedly christian despite how easily they fit into, and function within, the world of gods now so faint that in our own era people can pretty much make up whatever they want about them and there's nothing to disprove it

[pagesofkenna]

i want to make some more posts about being mormon now just to be obnoxious about it but i really dont have much to say. i babysat kids at my mormon church today. i talked to other mormons today about the weather. i forgot to wear my rainbow necklace to church because im exhausted and overstimulated from an otherwise busy weekend but multiple people have complimented my rainbow jewelry this last month while at my mormon church

i wear pants instead of a skirt to my mormon church because im not a woman but i also dont wear a tie with my white shirt to my mormon church because im not a man, and no one seems to have a problem with it. no one ever walks up to me at my mormon church to say 'ew, youre different than me? vomit emoji.'

sometimes i wake up on a sunday morning and think 'i dont wanna go and no one can make me', but then i think about all the kids and teenagers whose families drag them to church and who will see me, sitting in the front row (because i dont want to see mormons chewing gum), flat chest and undercut, they/them button on my bag, chatting amicably with the mormon adults in my mormon church, and i make myself go anyways

they gave me a brownie on mothers day just for being a woman but they also gave me a cookie on father's day, and they didnt know it was because i'm also a man, because no one at my mormon church wants to offend me by asking me what the deal is with my whole situation, but i am also a man and i did score the father's day cookie and maybe that's a gift from the universe or maybe that's just a fun happy gender coincidence, and either way i'll take it ✌

[the-sslimmest-shady]

How would yall feel if I started insane posting about my batshit self-made religion

[navree]

........lowkey wondering exactly how much research went into isaac newton for this episode tbf

[soulfireblue]

as a biblehead in my personal opinion tubbo might be interested in the story of david and jonathan <- who said that

[wytchwyse]

Egocentrism, The Ego, And The Self Within Sorcery and Occultism

This is a simple read, and it gives a simple but profound understanding of our ego, now the author seems to be a businessman but if you look past the slight business centered focus of the article you will find what is said applies in all facets of our life. and for those of us who study the arte it is important that we stay committed to self development, we have a long continuing history of being very ego driven, and it can happen to all of us.

As a side note I hope I don't come off as condescending when I post things like this,  often I will see or experience something and I come here to share, express myself, to hold space for accountability (my own included) , to remind, and to call in if need be. I care about the occult/pagan/magical/pre-christian religious community a lot.

[borealopelta]

they should not allow me on wikipedia