#post 14x13

[sirlancenotalot]

[that-barn-in-illinois]

so about 14x13 (lebanon) when sam and dean are saying goodbye to their father, john does say i love you to both of them. and there’s a moment where we’re not really sure if either of them are going to say it back. but that look on dean’s face, man….

in that moment i know he was thinking that if sam didn’t say it back, he would. he waited. and sam didn’t say it. so dean had to. because as much as john put him through—as much as he put both of them through—he was not going to let his dad leave without hearing that his children love him back, even if he didn’t necessarily want to be the one to say it. if sam said it, i really think dean wouldn’t have. but the way sam feels about john is complicated in a different way, so of course it was going to be dean. and that’s so eldest child trauma of him.

[soullessjack]

personally i don’t think we do enough about the fact that jack is narratively symbolized by snakes like five different times in s14. one of his few centric episodes is called ouroboros where the MOTW is a snake based monster who compares jack to a black snake in a fable, and later on in the same episode his soul-sacrifice to kill Michael is paralleled to both the ouroboros and the black snake simultaneously. both of his conversations with dean and cas in peace of mind are literally just, “okay clearly we’re both talking about me but we’re using snakes as a placeholder here to avoid the emotional baggage of what we really mean.” like there’s so much of it just Sitting there gathering dust and nobody ever talks about him like a functional person I’m gonna rip my fucking face off

[lebanon-wip]

[soulmates-for-real-tranquility]

14x13

Sam gets closure. He receives and grants forgiveness. I cry every time I re-watch this scene.

Jared hit this out of the park. His line reading at "And I think about you a lot" and at "I think about you...(hmm)...I think about you. On the floor of the hospital" is just heart wrenching and soul crushing.

The Yellow Draft of this scene from @spnscripthunt

It's not the final version and there are some changes in Sam's final dialogue which are small but significant. I wish I knew who made those changes.

[babyblue-mind]

the john that dean’s “heart desires” or whatever (when he wishes with that magic pearl) being the john from 2003 is So Upsetting to me.

because. thats when sam was at stanford. and the Only Time in dean’s life post-mary’s death that john actually favoured, outwardly, and especially inwardly, dean over sam. because dean is the loyal son who stayed and sam is just gone. it was Always sam over dean, except for that key four year period. that was the time john showed the most love to dean. in his whole life. his whole life.

[disabled-dean]

I just think we should have been allowed to see how Mary reacted when she heard Dean call John Winchester, "Sir"

[silver-stake-through-the-heart]

[walk-to-gallows]

Mary was too much. The show spent to much time in the past they didn’t need to drag Mary back into their lives for MORE FAMILY DRAMA. There were so many options for Amara to grant Dean some wish or some desire that he wanted there was no reason to dig into his rat nest of a life and drag Mary from heaven as some gift to Dean. To me that was as bad as 11 or 12 seasons later we had to put up with meeting Sam’s imaginary friend. They didn’t ring us dry of Sam pity enough? Do we need something more weird from his life to ring the tears from us?

While I didn’t sit at home hating or blogging about her in some crazy negative way. I think I only made one post about her right after she appeared but I was happy to see her go.

Yeah, you're getting the full rant; Mary was a reclamation.

Like most horror media, Supernatural has a bad habit of fridging its female characters to give its male characters a fighting reason. Up until her resurrection, Mary was only present in the past, she was just a memory rather than a person, the perfect mother, perfect wife, perfect woman because she was dead.

Of course killing off a family member is a customary trick of the trade, it’s strong stuff for motivating your characters, but when your pilot opens with not one, but two female characters being killed for the sake of their male partners arc, there’s a problem there.

Mary’s return is important for many reasons. Her presence parallels Jack’s, the ghost of the past and the hope of the future, the undead and the newly born. She represents autonomy being given to women in horror, like Kelly Kline, these women aren’t just hills for men to die on anymore.

Mary is the beginning, she’s the start of it all. Her return was hardly heralded in a way that made us expect her, but she’s not a random prize. Mary’s death has been the catalyst of Sam and Dean’s entire life, and as they move on to the future, there’s a need for them to reconcile with the past, especially with Jack’s introduction.

From this ask and your next, I'm guessing you're much more a fan of Dean than Sam, and I won't lie, my preferences lie that way too, but I fear that you're letting your biases cloud your judgement.

Mary's return has much more to do with Dean than Sam, Dean was four when Mary died, he actually remembers her. Her return spurs a whole new arc for him where he has to come to terms with her absence in his life and the glorified version of her that he grew up with as a result of his young age, Dean feels abandoned by his mother both in the past and in the present.

And once again, with Jack's introduction and Dean's role as one of his parents, there's more for Dean to move through. Dean was incredibly involved in Sam's childhood, and yet now when he's an adult he find himself often emotionally unavailable like his own father was once.

Not to mention, Sam and Dean's lives have been tightly intertwined beyond what is normal for most siblings, they've spent years apart, but they've often only had each other to rely on. Most things that concern one of them will also concern the other. Yes, Mary's return gives Sam a chance to know his mother the way he was never able to, but it also gives Dean the opportunity to reconcile with his childhood, to say things to his mother he never thought he'd be able to say, to resolve a part of his life that has been an open, festering wound.

Dean lost his father to hunting, it's something he struggles to reconcile with (which is why 14x13 is so important but that's another rant). It's part of the reason he's defensive of Sam's criticism of John, because Dean remembers a time when John was attentive and gentle, and not the soldier he regressed to.

In season 1, we see Sam learn that side of John, the part of him that put away money into a college fund for his boys, that hoped for a future free from bloodshed, and he comes to terms with the loss of a father he had never gotten the chance to know.

This is what Dean gets with Mary, the chance to know his mother as she was, as a person and an individual. The resentment that Sam carried for John is comparable to that which Dean carries for Mary, it's a one-dimensional view of their parents, anger at what they weren't just as much as what they were. Dean blames Mary for his childhood, and while I don't think the culpability rests on her, it is that unresolved anger that brings his mother back to him.

Mary gets a second chance at life, Dean gets a second chance with his mother, and he brings her back to him. I really find it difficult to understand how so many people dismiss this plot line, because not only does it parallel the way Sam and Dean slowly lost their father to the hunting life, it is a direct result of Dean's lingering anger and grief that makes Mary their mother again. She avoids them, throws herself back into hunting because it's what's familiar in this world that has aged beyond her, and the guilt of seeing her boys, who have grown despite her absence, is too much to bear. Dean forces her past this guilt, he allows her to forgive herself because he hates her for being gone, but he loves her too, and her knowing that her absence now counts as much as her absence then is what changes everything.

The character writing in supernatural is something that can be so good, I hate to see the hate-train on Mary coming at full speed because she didn't live up to audience expectations (never mind that those expectations were based on snapshots of her from her grieving husband and sons, or the younger and "innocent" version of her). Anyway, you're free to dislike Mary, at the end of the day my opinion is my opinion and yours is your own, but the fact of the matter is that Mary's return was incredibly significant for the overall plot, and Dean's character arc and growth.

[dryaddean]

i have some thoughts about the finale. i don't hate it, i just find it hilariously stupid and nonsensical.

Cas helped. let's suppose Cas is out of the Empty and powerful enough to be working on restoring Heaven by the time Dean is dying on the rebar. Cas doesn't lift a finger to help him, in my opinion, selfishly because this is how he gets Dean to "come home" to him. i'm just trying to follow the writers' logic: Cas is around + Cas lets Dean die = Cas is fine with Dean dying. Dean is now literally in Cas' sandbox. yay?

let's suppose Jack had decreed that angels don't meddle in the affairs of humans, including Dean. when was the last time Cas, the indomitable Mr. Crack in His Chassis, was shown to be any good at following orders, especially where Dean is concerned?

Cas let Dean go on believing he was in the Empty, unreachable. ergo, i'm inclined to believe that that same Cas actively chose not to get involved in Dean's final death. it's very selfish but also very funny.

And your mom and dad... they got a place over yonder. omg let these people get away from each other. John and Mary-once-risen-twice-died are completely different people from who they were when they last were together (discounting 14x13). the fact that the line is delivered by Bobby when this Mary and AU-Bobby got it on close to her death is pretty rich.

and have we forgotten this (5x03)?

CASTIEL What about you? DEAN What about me? I don't know. Honestly, I'm good. I can't believe I'm saying that, but I am, I'm really good. CASTIEL Even without your brother? DEAN Especially without my brother. I mean, I spent so much time worrying about the son of a bitch. I mean, I've had more fun with you in the past twenty-four hours than I've had with Sam in years, and you're not that much fun. It's funny, you know, I've been so chained to my family, but now that I'm alone, hell, I'm happy.

he had just once let himself be unburdened of the duty to family drilled into him by his father. he had in Cas a shining example of defying conditioning and paving one's own way. It's been a long time since I've laughed that hard. It's been more that a long time. Years. are we supposed to believe he was happy post-15x18? over and over again, he kept falling into the same rut of carrying the weight of the whole world on his shoulders, of assuming the burden of responsibility, of familial duty. whose idea of heaven was it that the same man who had once expressed feeling chained to his family is now chained to his family for eternity? it's sickening.

lastly, considering that we know families are confined together, let's remember that Sam was married, with a son. i think this is something a lot of people who celebrate the brothers reuniting in Heaven tend to overlook, that soon enough Sam will be joined by his wife and son and perhaps his family too, and so it goes. who actually thinks Dean will care to stick around these virtual strangers?

i think he'd rather be off with his angel who has the power to carve out their own little piece of heaven. <3

[idjits-areus]

Dean and the post office lady scene reminds me of the Cast scene in 6x3 | The Third Man

The scene in 14x13:

Sam goes to ask about Max and the post office lady goes “you want me to give you the address of an underage girl.” As soon as Dean shows up, they talk about her grandkids, he puts a hand on hers and then it's “I can tell you how to find her mother.”

It is safe to say that Sam is once again not happy with how easily Dean does stuff like that.

This is the scene from 6x3 that it reminded me of:

Sam: "Hello?"

Castiel: "Y-yes."

Sam: *imitating Castiel* "'Hello.'" *now his normal voice "'Hello'?"

Castiel: "Uh, that is still the term?"

Sam: "I spent all that time trying to get through to you. Dean calls once, and now it's *imitates Castiel again* "'Hello'?!"

Castiel: "Yes."

Sam: "So, what, you -- you like him better or something?"

Castiel: "Dean and I do share a more profound bond. *Turns to Dean* I wasn't gonna mention it."

[sirlancenotalot]

[ani-coolgirl]

what episode are you excited to write the first time part for

Oooh, there's a few:

Sacrifice (8x23): THEY GET MARRIED! Need I say more?

Dog Dean Afternoon (9x05): I just need an excuse for Dean to hump Sam's leg.

The Purge (9x13): Dean in a hair net and yoga!Sam delight me.

Soul Survivor (10x03): Okay, so I already wrote almost 40k of demon!Dean being a creep, but the world could always use more!

About a Boy (10x12): Sam being embarrassed that he used to have a crush on this dork (and still does).

Just My Imagination (11x08): More exploration of Sam's childhood crush.

Red Meat (11x17): Do I really need to explain?

The Chitters (11x19): I strongly suspect this one will turn out Very Soft.

Regarding Dean (12x11): amnesia!Dean hitting on Sam. Practically writes itself.

Stuck in the Middle (With You) (12x12): I'm thinking of trying to parody a different Tarantino film for the fic, which might be fun.

Scoobynatural (13x16): Scoob! And I can't wait to make @jinkieswouldyoulookatthis happy. :3

Exodus (13x22): For some Sam suffering after being alone with Lucifer for an extended period of time.

Mint Condition (14x04): Specifically for the end scene.

Lebanon (14x13): Something about them coming together for the first time after seeing their parents torn apart again is both heartbreaking and very weird.

Atomic Monsters (15x04): Sam's visions reveal a little more than what was shown on TV... ;)

Carry On (15x20): I basically already have it worked out.

Post-Series: This one too.

Okay, so that's more than a few... But making it through the average episodes are worth it when I hit the ones I'm looking forward to! I will admit that in the past my excitement has backfired on me, though, when I've hit a big episode and then gotten choice paralysis because there's so much to work with. But fingers crossed these all work out when I get there.

[soullessjack]

pouring out a cold one for steve yockey for trying his best to make jack an actual person and nobody else in the writers room or the fandom picking up on it . I understand you girl

[monstermoviedean]

inspired by @soft-pine's post, i'd like to try to break down the tight timeline between the end of 14x17 (mary's death) and the end of 15x03 (cas leaving).

short version: it may be as little as two weeks, and is likely no more than 3 weeks.

longer version: i've been trying to track the timeline of spn all through my rewatch. there are some points where it's very easy, and some where it's not. this is a maddeningly unclear timeline.

however, there are two confirmed bookends. one, 14x13 is conclusively stated to take place on february 7, 2019. two, 15x04 is conclusively stated to take place in early november 2019 (november 5-7, to be exact). so everything has to take place between february 7 and november 5.

my original thought was that 14x19 was taking place around april 18 - there's a poster that shows a book talk based on a book that has been recently launched (according to the dialogue). and all the other posters are from past events. however, there's a throwaway line in 15x02 - chuck mentions the game of thrones ending, which aired may 19, 2019. so 15x02 most likely takes place after that.

the thing that trip me up the most is the fact that there's snow on the ground in 14x17 and 14x18. that's what makes me think this is taking place in late spring, but there's no way to know for sure. and i'm actually okay writing this off as "feature of our world that doesn't apply to their world." same with the indicators of summer in early season 15. most of the time, with some exceptions, episodes take place in the spn universe around the same time they air in our universe (this is true for 14x13 and 15x04, our bookends).

while i can't state when this takes place in terms of months and days, i can give you the number of days it takes place over. just know that those days could be a stretch in april or in august - anywhere between february 7 and november 5. ***update! in 15x11 the sheriff references sam starting an fbi file on jack "last spring." this would make the most sense when he was soulless, so april/may would make sense here. this does, of course, mean that atomic monsters takes place months after the rupture.

so what is the timeline? here's the best i can do, pieced together from scripts and transcripts. i'm not going to cite evidence for each day line-by-line, but you are welcome to take a look at the transcripts or ask me to clarify if something is confusing.

i'll refer to mary's death as day 1, and all other days will be numbered accordingly.

14x18 absence: starts soon after the end of 14x17, maybe a few hours. it begins at night on day 1. when jack arrives at rowena's, it is the next day - day 2. jack trying to resurrect mary happens on day 2. they drive her body back to the bunker and burn her the next day - day 3. so she's burned within 48 hours, give or take.

14x19 jack in the box: this is the big question mark: how much time passes between burning mary's body, and her wake? there's no obvious answer. i would estimate at least a day (to call the hunters back to the bunker and prepare for the wake), and no more than a week because i'd imagine dean and sam would want to get the wake done relatively quickly, because they wouldn't want to let jack run around killing people, and because at the beginning of 14x19 jack is shown to be still in the same warehouse he was in at the end of 14x18.

i'll put 3 days on the clock here, meaning if they call everybody on day 3 after burning mary's body, mary's wake is taking place on day 6. less than a week after she died. the rest of the episode takes place over at least three additional days. end of day 6/beginning of day 7 is dean crying alone. day 7 involves dean and sam talking about mary, cas going to heaven, and dumah appearing to jack and then them both going to turn the professor into salt (this is where the poster with the april 18 date comes in). day 8 begins with cas returning from heaven, runs through dean, sam, and cas finding out about the professor, and ends with jack bringing the church group to heaven and filling the pastor with worms. day 9, dean, sam, and cas go visit the pastor in the hospital and say they want to talk about "last night." everything else through the end of the episode happens on day 9.

14x20 moriah: picks up on day 9. jack's truth spell is cast on day 10, and the entire rest of the episode takes place on day 10, transitioning to the night of day 10 after chuck kills jack.

15x01 back and to the future: picks up on day 10 right where 14x20 left off. takes place over the course of the night and through day 11.

15x02 raising hell: there is a clearly stated two-day gap - one of the harlan residents mentions they've been at the school for two days. the teaser takes place on the night of day 13 (48 hours, give or take, after the end of 15x01). the episode proper begins on the morning of day 14, with day 14 closing with dean and belphegor meeting "jack the ripper." day 15 opens with harlan residents trying to plan their escape and rowena's arrival. dean and ketch meet kevin at the end of day 15. the rest of the episode takes place on day 16.

15x03 the rupture: begins on a new day. i'm guessing day 17, but it could be day 18. probably not much later than that, since the warding is failing at the end of 15x02 and it seems very urgent. i'll say day 17 but know there's a little wiggle room here. the entire episode takes place in the course of one day, with the episode ending at night back at the bunker. the script says "some time has passed, at least half a day" between the closing of the rift and the end scene at the bunker. so it's late at night on day 18, maybe early in the morning on day 19.

the minimum timeline here, according for no wiggle room and assuming everything happens back-to-back, is 18 days. 2.5 weeks between mary's death and the rupture. you can add a few extra days here and there, but it is unlikely that this stretch of episodes took place over more than 3 weeks.

do with that what you will.

[winpocalypse]

I saw you post about wanting to know what episodes to bother with as you are getting irate of Supernatural, so I’m not a wincestie, but I’ll do my best. There tends to be overlap in brother/wincest feels, so …

Wincest-Adjacent / Good Brother moments:

10x04 - good brother talks, kinda lame monster of the week

10x12 - a bit of fun brother banter, Sam slamming a guy's head into a bar because he’s trying to find Dean.

10x23 - okay brother moment

11x04 - Baby

11x16 - brothers are paralleled to a couple or parent/kid, depending how you look at it.

11x17 - Romeo and Juliet bros

11x19 - Sam and Dean compared to gay couple, but otherwise so-so episode

11x23 - excellent brother hug

12x06 - separated by a door (Jody features and party of random hunters, so use your judgement).

12x07 - Sam and Dean look hot, otherwise a meh episode

12x09 - Sam and Dean being very badass and preferring to die than be separated

12x11 - Dean focus (no kidding, lol), but some tidbits of bro/atguable wincest stuff

12x22 - please watch this one. Very good brother stuff, and both brothers each have something to do

13x04 - Sam and Dean have therapy �� briefly.

13x12 - kind of dumb, but one could argue romantic brother jealousy .. maybe

13x21-13x22 - some crap to wade through, but also some solid Sam/Dean-ing

14x04 - Dean wants to wear couples costumes with Sam for Halloween

14x10 - Dean focused, but only Sam gets through to him

14x11-12 - some stupid moments, as most late seasons episodes have, but also excellent brother/wincest moments

14x13 - please watch this one!

15x5 - a couple of cool Small scenes (that’s all)

15x11 - the brothers play pool? It’s not really wincesty, but it’s one of the few not-terrible episodes of Season 15

15x13 - if you like funny, do yourself a favor and skim this one for Sam/Dean moments

15x17 - Sam is most important to Dean .. again

15x18 - there is like one good brother moment

15x19 - fingers brush, brothers keep each other standing

15x20 - Domestic Winchesters, 7 minutes of incest and a hug

Bonus: Sam gets to do something semi-interesting:

10x17

10x18 - Sam on how he feels about hunting/Dean

11x02

11x08 - young Sam insights. Sam gets his flowers for once

11x09 and 11x10 - - more good Sam stuff

11x17 - Sam is the shit.

11x01-11x02 - Sam whump

14x15 - in which Jared has fun being ridiculous

For brother/wincest stuff, p. And just in general quality, I strongly disike Seasons 13 and 15, but they have a few moments.

MY FRIEND MY FRIEND

this is lovely, thank you so much for going out of your way, and even adding some sam bonus, i love it!

🤍