#poc elphaba

[raven-curls]

Nicola Espallardo's debut at West End.

X

[gaywitchesthemusical]

was anyone gonna tell me that both the current broadway and north american tour principal elphabas (alyssa fox and lissa deguzman respectively) are asian or was i supposed to find that out by checking wickedthemusical dot com myself?

[agir1ukn0w]

ok so…I’m a little bit torn. because obviously I agree 1000% that fiyero should have been cast as a poc/Romani person, like that’s not even up for debate.

…however…

I think you all know how I feel about Jonathan Bailey☺️

[lillifaba]

I think I realized what makes me dislike what I'm seeing of the Wicked movie so far and it has to stem from the musical aesthetic vs the movie's aesthetic. It's the over compensation.

So much of the movie is overdoing small things that don't need to be. For example, things such as the grimmerie, the broomstick and Elphaba's glasses. Why did they feel the need to make some of these things overdone? What does it accomplish?

There is nothing wrong with how the broomstick looks in the musical, yet John Chu decides "let's add more details on the broomstick to make it more whimsy." or the new shape of the grimmerie. Why does it need to be in a triangular shape? There's nothing wrong with either of these things are in the musical. I understand wanting to make your adaption look unique, but if you were to ask me what needed improvement in the musical, it certainly isn't with any of the props.

In fact, some of it makes it look worse. I can't get over that platform that Ari stands on inside the bubble. Why does she need that in the bubble? She has magic! She doesn't need a DUMB PLATFORM to stand in a magical bubble! SHE CAME DOWN IN A BUBBLE DOUG! I hate to say this but even that awful Oz The Great and Powerful movie did a better job with Glinda's bubble and even the backgrounds :/

Another example of overdoing it is Elphaba and her green contacts. There's no reason for them. Cynthia's eyes are just fine the way there are and dare I say, look way better than what she has on now. The contacts don't flatter her. It's a common trope I hate when giving POC brightly colored contacts. They feed into the "exotic" stereotype and are too distracting and borderline give her the light skin stare (iykyk)

Stuff like this is what is giving me and others doubt about the quality of the film, no matter how much John and the rest of the cast try to hit us over the head with how great it all turned out. Sometimes simplicity is key. Based on the teaser, you should've made the two main leads acting the first priority over small things like props.

I'm expecting this movie to end up like many Oz adaptations that try to live up to the 1939 movie. When will Hollywood understand that trying to get on it's level of innovation and uniqueness isn't what made it the timeless classic when know and love today? Even looking at the Wicked musical which follows the Wizard of Oz's timeline, it became it's own thing and doesn't hit you over the head with "Do you remember this? We're referencing it! Do you get it?"

Anyways, my ass will probably be seated in the theater and I'll be bringing my notebook to write down my thoughts.

[aarontveits]

My thoughts about the Wicked trailer no one asked for. I'm generally trying really hard to reserve judgement as I know it's going to be different from the stage production and I welcome some of the opportunities that can give such as how much more they can do with the plot, and I'm actually not mad about them splitting it into two movies as the more run time the better as far as I'm concerned. However.

➳ I don't like the colors they've picked for Glinda, they're doing Ariana dirty. A warmer shade of blonde, not bleaching her eyebrows, and less pastel pinks would really stop her from looking washed out and kinda sickly. ➳ I like Elphaba's costumes (except the TikTok glasses) I am concerned how much older Cynthia looks next to Ariana considering they're supposed to be the same age. Same with Jonathan, his Fiyero looks like the fully grown ass man that he is which is fine for act 2, not act 1. I have a lot of issues with Fiyero's casting anyway though as he's the most important character that should have been POC as is canon ➳ The aesthetic is giving YA novel, I'm not sure how I feel about that ➳ I hate the Defying Gravity riff. Not just that it's different, it's just not performed well. It's Elphaba's battle cry, she's supposed to sound angry yet triumphant, and that is neither. Also - is that how the movie is gonna end?? ➳ Is...Glinda getting married? ➳ I like the design of the silver slippers and the homages to the Wizard of Oz ➳ Jeff Goldblum as the Wizard is literally my dream fantasy casting, and I'm just about to lose my damn mind knowing that I'm going to actually get to see it

Generally right now my feelings are could be better, could be worse. I was expecting worse.

[wickedlyqueer]

How do you feel about the fact that the most POC-cast (idk the term) role in wicked is usually nessa? I think it’s odd… that of course the SMALLEST female role goes to the POCs and also… evades actual disability rep? Of course we have many amazing Nessaroses, but it’s strange that Elphaba doesn’t have more as the allegory for racism is quite strong

Statistically, I'm not even sure it's true Nessarose is the most played role by women of color? But maybe my perception is skewed bc when i think musical!Nessa I think Catherine Charlebois lmao.

A lot of what you're talking about I actually discussed in the second half of my Wicked is Gay video. And it took me 40 minutes to discuss it, so there's no way I'll do the topic justice in a tumblr post, so if you want to hear my full thoughts, best to watch that.

Though one nuance I'd like to make, is that Elphaba isn't just an allegory for racism. You can certainly read it that way, but back when Wicked first got put on stage, witch imagery (and therefore Elphaba) was far more associated with Jewish stereotypes, and I do think that played a role in casting, hence why Idina Menzel was the very first Elphie.

That has been quite an interesting shift in the public perception of Elphaba. I don't think it's coincidence that Cynthia is going to play Elphie in the movies. bc in the culture discourse we are in today, people associate Elphaba way more with racism than antisemitism. Though both still work. In fact, you can project any sort of bigotry on Elphaba and it still works (That's also immediately kinda the problem with Elphaba. Any outcast can relate to her, and frankly, who hasn't felt like an outcast at least once in their life?)

But again. I discuss this in much more detail in the video.

[cto10121]

Broadway: “We want Black woman!Elphaba for progressive reasons!!!11”

Black Elphaba: *exists*

Twitter: “Black woman!Elphaba is actually problematic for progressive reasons!!1!!1”

So there is an obvious problem with the Elphaba=Black/POC allegory. Namely, that Elphaba is uniquely green. Even in Oz people just aren’t born green. There is no “green people” that Elphaba secretly belongs to by virtue of genetics or culture. The closest creature who is green are elves (hence that hilarious scene with Melena shouting at Nanny, “I would not have sex with an elf!” in the book).

Elphaba is the daughter of Melena (royal white-coded tall Munchkinlander) with the Wizard of Oz (white Irish-American). She is then raised by a fundamentalist Protestant preacher of the Unnamed God, Frex. If anything, Elphaba is by genetics and upbringing white-coded.

That said. Her being played by an ethnic minority still makes sense. The Wizard is Irish at a time of extreme anti-Irish discrimination and racism. More than that, in moving to Oz he is de facto a foreigner/immigrant (well, more like colonizer, really). Elphaba being the daughter of a foreigner and raised by a fundamentalist preacher is a sad but common analogue to many ethnic minority’s experiences being adopted by an ethnic majority family and having to deal with the baggage of prejudiced expectations. The film people deciding to cast a Black woman to play Elphaba is following that particular strain of logic.

…Except that the musical just gets rid of all the nuance of the books and decides to have Glinda as the framing device, thus privileging her POV and flirting with white savior trope, something the much better novel never did. Oh heavy burden.

[scarfacemarston]

Holy SHIT The new Wicked trailer looks like garbage. Also, CAN WE STOP HAVING ACTORS WITH NO ACTING EXPERICIE BE IN MOVIES. It rarely works. Why can't they just cast Broadway people. So sorry it's not "big names".... Also, it sounds like Glinda is singing the beginning of Defying Gravity AND they spoiled the end note of the song....it sounds AWFUL.

Just delete the whole movie. Please. Also, for those mad that a woman of color is playing Elphaba, you all do realize that she is GREEN and is meant to portray the experiences POC face everyday...right? My only issue is her age.

Dying at the comments.

[slut-and-falcon]

My predictions for the wicked movie knowing Hollywood if they include elements of the book (which they should!!!):

-queer bait the shit out of Elphaba and Glinda

-they hired a white guy to play Fiyero so I’m betting they may attempt the whole subverting the race power dynamics thing instead of yknow sticking with the very clear allegories in the book. They also won’t let Fiyero wear his cultural clothing, instead sticking with a very boring suit or shirtpants

-make Elphaba very feminine…I swear the god if they don’t give her a too big man’s coat she wears in the book I will fight someone

- more of a tiktok thing that will happen: ‘Blue diamonds on a green field’ romance trend

-either they will focus too much on the Time Clock Dragon or not at all despite it’s importance to the plot

-if Crope and Tibbit are included, they either will not verbally queer but will either wear leather or have colored hankies (cuz the costume department knows what they are doing), or they will be the opposite of yassified

-they won’t show Tibbit (I think it’s him) in hospice dying of what is implied to be HIV/AIDS (which omg is such a large part of the plot and culture of which it was derived from! The whole ‘friends of Dorthy’ + queer women having to step up and care for queer men during HIV/AIDS crisis in the 80s and 90s and still to this day!!! There is so much subtext in that few pages!)

-the genocide of the Quaddlings for their land’s rubies won’t be mentioned or if it is they will ‘holocaust’-ify it and it will be very disrespectful

-they won’t make the Wizard like ale enough. The whole point in the musical is that he is so charming that even Elphaba is tempted. A fatherly actor, Tom Hanks??, should play the Wizard 🫢

-the Animal animation will either be extremely bad (like the Lion King remake), which is most likely, or they won’t use it at all. And tbh I want to see something like that is in Narnia.

-they will market it like they did the Hunger Games (I honestly don’t have much of a problem with this because I found that fascinating when that happened).

-it’s gonna be so straight. And that’s really sad because this book was written by a gay man, and has sooooooo many references to queer culture and most of the characters are canonically queer in some way. And honestly as depressing as the book is, I read it as a cathartic image of what LGBTQIA+ and POC go through. I think that is why I love it so much- I see myself and my pain and my community’s pain represented in a nuanced way.

-the only thing I can rely on happening is the violence against women 🙄 it’s in everything

I just really want a wicked series that is similar to Game of Thrones (with better writing) mixed with Pose and MASH, and be a political/action/horror thriller like Kingdom (K-drama). I know that’s complicated but it all plays out in my head lol.

I’m holding out this much 🤏🏻 hope.

[sleepyfoxbooks]

Wicked

By Gregory Maguire

Hello again! This is going to cover the college years of Elphaba, her meeting Galinda and the insanity that ensures during her time at Shiz. Oh my God, this is a lot. There is so much to discuss in this part of the book. It feels like so much happens in this chapter and at the same time absolutely nothing at all. I’m trying really hard not to just summarize the whole thing so please bear with me. (I pretty much summarize the whole thing 😅)

⚠️Warning! Spoilers for the book and it’s musical counterpart! ⚠️

⚠️Content Warning! This story contains explicit language, mild violence, and racial issues! Read at your own risk!⚠️

Gillikin part 1

This chapter covers a lot of stuff in the span of 146 pages. I gonna try to skip the stuff I don’t have a whole lot to talk about. This chapter skips directly to Ms. Galinda on her way to Shiz University, which in the book is an all-girls school. On the train, she meets Dr. Dillamond, the Goat professor (love him). During this time we’ve learned The Wizard of Oz came to power via hostile takeover, and is rolling back the rights of Animals. Animals with a capital A refers to Animals with souls, and the ability to speak. Galinda is incredibly bitchy to the Doctor, strictly because he’s a Goat. Galinda is a shallow, classist, naïve girl that has no concern or care for anything outside of herself. No surprise there. She gets saddled with Elphaba as her roommate because her chaperone (named Ama Clutch) was late and couldn’t vouch for her. There is continued discussion of the rights of Animals and all. We are introduced to Boq, who is smitten with Glinda and attempts to get close to her with the aid of Elphaba (who finds the whole thing absolutely hilarious).

In comparison to the musical, Boq and Elphaba strike up this very interesting friendship. During the summer months the two build an unlikely friendship (along with a gay couple that I desperately want to see in the movie, but know I probably won’t) as they attempt to help Dr. Dillamond provide validity to his existence. Boq works in a library that is barred to Animals and women alike. Galinda goes to a summer lake house one of her friends own.

Moving on from the summer, Elphaba and Galinda are roomies again and for the start of their Sophomore year. Then, the worst, most terrible thing you could ever think of happens.

DOCTOR DILLAMOND IS MURDERED!!

I wanted to scream so bad when I read this scene. All the poor Goat wanted was rights and he was murdered! The murder is so gruesome and bloody! Like no one is gonna believe this is anything other than murder. And it gets worse! Ama Clutch saw the murder from Galinda’s and Elphaba’s room! The head mistress (Madam Morrible or Horrible Morrible which I agree with very much) had her servant do it! This bitch made Ama Clutch go insane to cover up the murder!

With their chaperone out of commission, Horrible Morrible has Elphaba’s old nanny (conveniently named Nanny) come up to Shiz to take over as chaperone to the two girls. She of course has to being Nessarose with her as she is responsible for her. The thing about Nessarose is, she doesn’t have arms. She was born without arms, and struggles with balance and in turn walking. More can probably be said about this but I’m not exactly the person for that. Nessarose is much like her father, very religious. She is also the father’s favorite, so she’s very spoiled. Which honestly breaks the middle child stereotype (yes, they also have a younger brother named Shell, but he’s not important). Nessarose is described as stunningly beautiful, with her only flaw being said lack of arms.

Without a professor for the girl’s college, they connect the boys and girls college, letting them take classes together. This is where we are introduced to Fiyero.

Now Book Fiyero and Musical Fiyero are incredibly different. For starters, book Fiyero is explicitly a POC, and it is integral to his back story. Before I say anymore, I feel I must preface this with the fact that I’m very white, so I will not analyze these parts of his character as I am not equipped to do so. I ask any POC that feel comfortable in giving their insight on the character please do so. I’m gonna go through really quick and give all the information about Fiyero that is in the book but completely written out of the musical. I also should mention at lot of this reeks of “written by a white guy in the 90’s” so please approach this with caution.

Book Fiyero:

is married at the age of seven (he does reassure us that he hasn’t done the “mariatal duties”)

is often described as Ochre-skinned

has blue diamond tattoos all over his face and body

he is the crown prince of his tribe during his entrance

his clothes are described as strange and all other characters act like they’ve never seen a POC before.

Right now, Fiyero is a little more of a background character at this moment. He comes into class late and is attacked by a pair of sentient antlers (which my favorite gay couple saves him from). A side character, yet for some reason still friend to the rest of the main characters (named Alvaric) makes blatantly racist comments about Fiyero. Elphaba comes to his defense and that’s kinda it for now.

Now this class they share is run by a professor Nikidik, and this man is a menace to society (and not in a good way). This man kidnaps an orphaned baby lion, who is too young to speak, if it can. He plans to hit this baby lion with a mallet to see if it can feel pain (like what?!). Everyone freaks out (and rightfully so), and two girl students grab the lion off the table and run out of the classroom with the baby in their arms! (The cat distribution system at work!) And this man is so confused why they’re so upset. I imagine this professor’s face to be very punch-able.

Final thoughts

I didn’t know where to put this in the overall review, but Imma tag it on at the end here. Just like in the musical I think Galinda changing her name after the death of Dr. Dillamond to be pretty shallow. I understand what the attempt was here, and it definitely comes off better here than in the musical. Glinda sees that she was a really shallow person and begins to understand the world outside of her own head and the privileges she comes from. It just feels like she flipped a switch instead of ever having any kind of character growth that the readers can see. What might’ve fixed this would be instead of Galinda spending her entire summer break with her snobbish friends, she goes back to the school early and helps Boq and Elphaba with their research. This would give Galinda the opportunity to experience more in the injustices of Animals. I can just see her asking “why can’t women go to the library? Not like I’d want to of course, but just the principle?” during one of the meet ups.

I don’t know if it’s just me but there are things about the way Elphaba is written that I read as autism-coded. I don’t know if anyone else had that reading, if you did, I would love to compare notes on the subject!

Overall this chapter really packed a punch with its content. I hope to do a full character analysis when I’m done the book. If I skipped anything you wanted me to talk about please let me know. I admit I’m rather nervous to keep reading. Coming off of Good Omens, I had really not expected a deep dystopian conversation about rights and the injustices of the systems that revoke them.

[the-bafflement-of-scotland-yard]

Okay you know what

I am actually okay with Ariana Grande playing Glinda in the upcoming Wicked movies

But it would have been so amazing to have her Elphaba be Elizabeth Gillies

(this is nothing against Cynthia; I am in fact very happy that they got a POC for Elphie cause it’s sadly very accurate; I would just have loved to see Ariana and Liz do this together)

(or alternately just let the two of them play them on Broadway or a tour together)

[borrowthemoonlight]

Are you excited about the Wicked movie? We just got our Fiyero!

okay so my thoughts on the movie (with what we have so far):

cynthia erivo as elphaba:

honestly couldn't be better. she's talented, i've seen her performance in the colour purple and damn she can sing, and her being poc will add an additional layer to her performance. not sure who else can top her though, and tbh my only qualm is how she's gonna look as a teen/young adult in the first movie (same goes for ariana) but that's pretty minor

ariana grande as g(a)linda:

um. contentious. as an ex ariana grande stan i regret to say i'm interested in watching her in the role but. i hope her pop star persona is kept separate from her performance because that would end up really cringeworthy. her singing is good but same thoughts as with her acting

jonathan bailey as fiyero:

hot. that's all i'm gonna say. i haven't watched bridgerton but i am seeing some similarities between the viscount and the winkie prince so there's that. good to know he has musical theatre experience though!! but i do wish a poc could've been casted too

the movie in general:

please for the love of god don't overuse cgi or use any autotune the actors are more than adept at their job. sad it got pushed back but if that works in the story's favour then i shan't complain. BUT WHY TWO MOVIES

[chaossmagic]

Fiyero isn’t white. A white actor shouldn’t play him

Fiyero is blue in the book, but that has never translated to him being PoC on-stage. The concept of race in Wicked is slightly different to how it is in real life, because you don't have typical races/ethnicities. Elphaba's race is never stated, only that she's green. It's true that in the book, Fiyero is a different race within Oz because he's a Winkie, but that doesn't map on to modern, real-world race/ethnicity perfectly.

Would I like to see a black or brown Fiyero? Absolutely. But his character in the book is very different to the musical, rightly or wrongly, and unfortunately that's what they're going off of.

Johnny is a brilliant choice IMO, and he's gonna smash it.

[thediaryofatheatrekid]

YOU CAN NOW WATCH THE ENTIRETY OF THE POC ELPHABA ROUNDTABLE AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! #BeAMango

[poc-dreamcast]

Wicked Movie Dreamcast

Emmy Raver-Lampman as Elphaba Thropp

Ashley Park as Glinda Upland

Daveed Diggs as Fiyero Tigelaar

Alysha Deslorieux as Nessarose

Alex Thomas Smith (they/them/him/hers) as Boq

Andre De Shields as The Wizard

Amber Gray as Madame Morrible

Marlon Wayans as Doctor Dillamond

[mossandfable]

Wicked needs more Glindas of colour.

She’s blonde and all but I feel like she doesn’t need to be, you know? No she’s not angry, she’s just done with your shit. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.Also to everyone who’s kept up with my blog here, I’m studying Musical so my life is full of dancing, singing and acting since September and it’s the best decision I’ve ever made