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jinxedwood · 2 years

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The House of the Dragon: The Princess and the Queen. Part 1 of 2

I have so much to say about episode 1x06, I didn’t know were to start. So I decided to make my comments chronologically…I guess? (I tried to, I really did, but then I started hopping around to other scenes that I thought linked up…and things got chronologicalish?) .

Also, I’m going to post this in two parts over the next few days because this thing turned into a BEAST. Also, I’m quite blunt with my opinions here, so I have tagged everything with anti tags because I have something negative to say about just about everyone and I appreciate the fact that some days you just want to look at the pretty.

Please excuse the typos. I know they’re there. I can’t see them...but I can sense them.

The House of the Dragon: The Princess and the Queen. Part 1 of 2

We open with Rhaenyra giving birth to her third child. I was struck by how intimate, almost claustrophobic the scene is, but the smile, that moment of genuine joy on her face as she was handed her child was lovely. I also noticed she was attended by a Septa and I presume a midwife, and there wasn’t a Maester in sight and I wondered if they were specifically barred from the room. It would make a kind of sense. Aemma’s fate was sealed the moment the women were sent from the room and the Maesters took over and I’m sure that was lesson Rhaenyra learned well..

And then the doors opens, letting a chill light into the cocoon of joy, and Rhaenyra learns that the queen had commanded to see the baby at once. You can see the following scene in two ways. You could say that Rhaenyra’s pain and discomfort as she climbed the steps was all her own doing, that the Queen mere wished to see the baby and hadn’t requested her presence as well, but as this demand was clearly a power play, you could also say Rhaenyra couldn’t trust the queen alone with the child.

Personally - I don’t think she thought Alicent would physically hurt the child - at least not at this stage - but a sly comment here or there could do irreparable damage to the pretence that that Rhaenyra’s children were Laenors instead of Harvin Strong’s. One that Viserys is holding onto for dear life.

And it’s on this journey we meet Laenor. It’s strange, I see a lot of people saying Laenor isn’t properly supportive of Rhaenyra in this scene. I don’t see that at all. I see the real, organic bickering you see in any genuine family relationship. Rhaenyra is in pain and snippy. Laenor is stressed and his head is all over the place as a result. His mouth is literally running off before his brain can catch up and the expression on Rhaenyra’s face says it all.

I also think that what we initially see as his disengagement from Rhaenyra and the children ,is in actual fact the signs of a man newly in love again. I think this is why, although Rhaenyra gets exasperated with him and later snaps at him that he can’t go to war with his new lover, she also doesn’t try to squash the romance or contradict Laenor when he calls their third child Joffrey - although she complained about it afterwards - because I think this is probably the first time he’s been in love since Joffrey died.

Alicent has changed over the years. Always a little conservative in her thinking, this has hardened into self righteousness that reminds me a little of Otto’s. Of course, this level of righteous indignation has to come with a little self denial. Although I think we see this latter trait slowly stripped from her as the episode continues.

In this scene though, she finds herself partially foiled by not only Rhaenyra’s presence but Leanor’s , although she can’t help her parting barb to Laenor. I think the fact that the barb didn’t land as heavily as she thought it would is the moment Alicent’s frustration with the situation began to ratchet up. Alicent carries her prejudices around with her like they’re precious truths. She looks at Rhaenyra’s children and only sees bastards. She literally finds it difficult to see them as real human beings, never mind children and she genuinely can’t understand why Visery’s doesn’t see it the same way.

We can see other examples of the double think that comes with a rigid belief system . We see a scene where Alicent reprimands Sir Crispin Cunt (sorry not sorry) for calling Rhaenyra a cunt, but in practically the same breath voices her opinion that her children should be named bastards and Rhaenyra punished (in other words, executed) Alicent’s belief system allows her not to see any hypocrisy in this.

Also, for all we call Targaryen’s mad and wild, there is a hardocre pragmatism built into them that Alcent really can’t wrap her head around. Of course, Visery’s knows Harwin is the father of Rhaenyra’s children, and he really doesn’t give a shit. They’re still Rhaenyra’s children. Alicent genuinely doesn’t understand why Visery’s is getting angry at her rather than condemning Rhaenyra’s actions and outing his grandchildren as bastards. She really hadn’t got the memo yet that, while Visery’s wouldn’t say it out loud like Daemon would, he has as little regard for the morality of the situation as his brother. His daughter made a political marriage with little chance of issue and made other arrangements to make sure she had heirs. As far as he’s concerned the only problem is that his wife and her followers won’t shut up about it .

In this sense, Alicent is flying a lot closer ot the wind than she realises. After all, it was Otto’s blindness to this aspect of Visery’s personality that lost him his place as the hand. VIsery’s smiles and plays nice for the Maesters, and the beliefs they uphold, but in a lot of ways that belief is as paper thin as Daemon’s. The Targaryens conversion to the Seven had always been a matter of politics rather than faith.

[And this is one of those moments where I veer wildly off on a tangent, because I realised I went on and on about Alicent’s failings but didn’t bring up any of Rhaenyra’s -because, boy, does she have them! But her biggest one is her ARROGANCE.

Like her father, Rhaenyra hasn’t gotten the memo yet that things have changed thanks to the concessions Jahaery’s made during his reign. Not only did he choose to renounce his traditional beliefs and faith in favour of the Seven, he allowed the Maester’s to decide on his succession, something his wife never really forgave him for.

One of this things that is usually left unsaid about the Targaryens is that, while the people they ruled in Westeros were extremely Patriarchal, they were less so, and their views on sexual relationships were a lot more more fluid. Both men and women were dragon riders and went to war. Polyamorous marriages were accepted, and women held positions of great power before the rule of Jahaery’s In fact, while the histories (sic), describe Aegon as the king, and Visenya and Rhaenys as his wives, there is enough information there to assume that it was in fact Visenya who was the de facto ruler and Aegon her beard. This ambiguity around gender is reflected in the Valyrian language, which has not one, not two, but FOUR genders

Yeah, yeah, I’m getting to the point.

The point is,Viserys and his family are the first generation to deal with the fallout of Jahaery’s decisions, but they had deluded themselves into believing nothing had changed. They carried on as they always had, ignoring the Westorosian (?) customs they felt shouldn’t apply to them. In a sense, they remind me of the British Royal family after the Civil war, It took them a couple of generations to realise that they’d been neutered as well.

I mean, yes, I’m not saying that Rhaenyra should have forced Laenor to sleep with her to produce heirs (because - lets be clear - not having heirs wasn’t an option for her. She needed them to hold onto her claim to the throne.) but she could have at least picked a lover who looked a little like him! That would have been the clever thing to do.Instead she just did what she wanted and expected everyone else to go along with it - and a generation before, she probably would have gotten away with it! But the moment Visery’s married Alicent and made her queen, he let in Westeros behind the curtain, and closed the net tighter around the Targaryen reign..

Rhaenyra should have been smart enough to see that she didn’t have the absolute power her forebears had, that she couldn’t just browbeat the court into ignoring how she flouted Westorian culture. There is a definite culture clash going on here, but the Targaryen’s had never been on the sharp edge of that until now.

So yeah, Rhaenyra is suffering from an epic amount of self delusion here and, in that, she and Alicent are a pair - perhaps even intentionally? Are they supposed to represent the aspects of their culture, both the good and bad?

Anyways, tangent done. ]

[But also another - short - tangent. I’ve read a lot commentary that seems to conclude Alicent’s belief that her child should be on the throne, and her consequent actions, are vindicated and caused by the fact that Rhaenyra's children are bastards.

I think this conclusion tends to varnish over Alicent’s hypocrisy and the fact she already committed herself to putting her son on the throne before Rhaenyra was even married, never mind had her first child. Even if Laenor had been the children’s father, Alicent would still have striven to put Aegon on the throne. The Dance of the Dragons was always going to happen, only the outcome was in question.]

We cut to the dragon pit. I found this bit fascinating. But I had a lot of questions. What is the language the trainer is speaking? It sounds like Valeryian but I could be wrong. If it is, then something is going very wrong with these kid’s education if the language has to be translated for them. Another example of the Hightower/Maester influence, perhaps? Maybe as an Irish person I’m reading too much into this, but I always view a language dying out from one generation to the next as very sad. I can’t help but view it as one of the thousand cuts to what is left of the Valeryian culture.

(But - also - why the fuck isn’t Rhaenyra teaching them the language if the Septa/Maesters aren’t? Has she stopped speaking it? Has VIserys?)

The kids are being typical kids, even when they’re being cruel. I know they’re setting up a storyline for Aemond here, so I’m paying attention. The kid definitely has second son syndrome!

We cut back to Alicent and Helaena. Is it just me, or is Helaena coded as neurodivergent? It’s a fantasy world, and I ain’t a doctor, but I thought I saw a few indicators of autism in her behaviour. I especially honed in on the fact she didn’t make any eye contact with her mother, and flinched when Alicent touched her. I felt for Alicent here. She’s trying to connect with her daughter but doesn’t have the tools to do so.

Their moment is interrupted when Aemond is brought into the room, a little worse for wear.

Also, because of the Aemond comment, we now know Helaena is a dreamer. (Spoilers, sweetie)

And then we arrive at the scene I already discussed above, because I can never do anything chronologically, no matter how hard I try. It’s interesting that we’re back in the room they had their first conversation in, when she had been sent there by her father in her mother’s dress. We can reallly see how much the power dynamics have changed. Her frustration is already high here. She began the day believing that this was the day Viserys would at last see things her way but he’s (wilfully) refusing to engage.

Next she meets up with Ser Crispin Cunt (still not sorry) to vent, and perhaps got more in return than she bargained with. She reprimands him…but.

And here is the thing with Alicent, her frustration with VIserys is blinding her to the fact that while her husband isn’t listening to her, her vassals are. There was perhaps a hint of wisdom in Viserys’ words. She should be more careful of her words. The consequences of this conversation with Cristin is the first example of this, but there is of course more to come.

We cut to Daemon, and at first everything seems well in his life. He had a wife who is also a Dragon rider and of Valeryian blood, something he always hankered for. They have two daughters and a third child on the way, and he’s just been made a generous offer to settle in Pentos at the feast after his and Laena’s demonstration on Dragonback. He even seems to be discreetly propositioning one of the servers, at least that was the impression I got from the cheeky expression he got in turn. .(Daemon is officially bi. I’m calling it.)

But the feast is then done, and we begin to see the cracks.

I think it’s so sad Rhaena has equated Daemon’s lack of attention with love. Baela has more of his time, true, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. I genuinely think Daemon is depressed and just dragging himself through the day. He managed to summon the energy to help his oldest because he thinks she has the greater need because she has a dragon to bond to.

For that she needs training and knowledge of High Valeryian and Daemon feels it’s his duty to provide her with that because they don’t have Dragon pit trainers and Maesters at hand. He’s literally homeschooling her. (Also, interesting, in the light of my earlier my earlier comments on language and culture. Daemon is impulsive but he isn’t an idiot. He’s actually paying attention to his children’s education)

But the love and attention that both Baela and Rhaena probably need, the gentle rough housing, the silly jokes, listening to their tales and woes? Daemon isn’t present enough in their lives to give them that. Daemon isn’t present enough in any sense of the world.

We get the impression from Laena that this hasn’t been true the entirety of their marriage, however, and I can’t help but feel that one of the core reasons she wants them to return home is because she believes Daemon would fare better there. She’s worried about him. She’s trying to chivvy him out of his low mood.

It doesn’t work. He gives her the silent treatment and she’s familiar enough with the tactic to know what it means.

Again I’ve seen some weirdly negative commentary about this scene. Daemon may not be in love with Laena but i think there is genuine affection there. HIs disinterest in his marriage and life is not caused by his relationship with his wife but his depression.

And it is here that I’m going to sign off on part one. I’ll be able to post part two in a couple of days.

#house of the dragon #hotd #alicent hightower #anti alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #anti rhaenyra targaryen #viserys targaryen #anti viserys targaryen #anti criston cole #(no..just anti for crispin - I ain't loving him this episode)#daemon targaryen #laenor velaryon #laena velaryon #and all the targaryen kiddies #and fuck it #I posted this to the wrong blog!#ah well I'll reblog it

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nineteensixtieschikadee · 3 years

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Arya Stark & Femininity

This might turn into a mini rant, so bear with me here. A lot of times whenever I watch old GOT clips, (bc I hate myself) and read stuff about Arya on fansites, I realize that there’s been a lot of misconception about her and her character. Particularly about her being a woman. And a lot of times i see this sort of “justification” from her fans that the reason why she’s such a fan-favorite character in the show (and to some extent, the books?) is because Arya is esentially this “bad-ass ninja asassin tomboy who’s out for revenge against those who’ve killed her family.” And some of her fans and especially her anti’s will call her out expressing that “Arya’s only a child who doesn’t like girly things like dresses and boys and doing her hair. She “identifies” herself as a tomboy because she likes “boyish things” like sword play, and playing in the mud, and gore, wrestling, etc. I was scrolling through the Jonrya tag here on Tumblr, this is a comment I found regarding Arya:

The moment I read that I straight up just wanted to rant! Lol! Also, I’m sorry for the formatting, I’m writing this on mobile. :( Anyways, these people who make those claims about Arya, esentially only see her as this small girl who likes fighting and getting dirty. They completely disregard everything else that makes Arya, Arya. Pretty much just limiting her to her sex, understanding that because Arya likes boyish things, she’s NOT ALLOWED to inherit things, like the North, fall in love and get married, have a high position in the hierarchy and in politics. It’s because that these people see her as someone who hates needlework or everything that isn’t Sansa, everyone believes that she hates everything that makes her FEMALE. Everybody here knows that Arya’s my favorite female character in the books, so I just wanna talk about how the general public views her, and how their views tend to go against Arya’s entire character.

People have this view that she is the “exact opposite” of Sansa. And while that’s true in terms of their different characteristics, it doesn’t mean that Arya is against everything that makes Sansa, feminine. Now lemme elaborate here. Sansa is everything that represents “femininity.” Especially in terms of the inspired time period that ASOIAF takes place in. She’s very girly & lady-like, is mannerful, “soft-spoken.” She daydreams about boys and being a princess. She’s graceful and elegant. She knows her place in terms of society, and as a woman. AND YEAH, Arya is the exact opposite of that. Yes, she has this boyish nature. She’s wild and free spirited. Loud also adventerous. But that’s the thing: Arya has a lot of femininity in her. It’s just not the femininity that we’re used to. What society percieves as “normally feminine.”

Arya is not Sansa. And it’s because she doesn’t act like a “lady” that the audience sees her as this girl who “doesn’t want” or most importantly, should not want/get the same treatment as the typical noblewoman in Westeros should recieve. This idea was engraved into people’s heads because of the show, and that’s how we’re supposed to see her. As this cold hearted ninja assasin warrior who happens to be a girl, but doesn’t act like a typical girl. The audience pretty much places her in the “I’m not like other girls” trope. Which is honestly, so wrong to me. Because yeah okay, Arya isn’t like the typical lady. But god, she is far deeper than that, and is a much more complex character.

Here’s the thing, Arya does not reject being a female, and most importantly, she does not reject the typical ideals of what makes a lady feminine. Of course not. In fact, she actively encourages that women be included in all things, especially in things only made for men. She believes that women should not be held back or ignored because of their sex and femininity.

“The Lannister’s are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

This excerpt is from Arya’s very first chapter in AGOT. It is also my favorite Jonrya moment, lol. And asides from the scene foreshadowing potential plot points for not only Jon & Arya, the scene introduces to us and examines Arya’s perception of society and more specifically, the women in society. In this scene Arya joins Jon in observing Prince Joffrey, talking about the Lannister/Baratheon coat of arms. Jon makes a point that while the Baratheon sigil should be enough to prove that Joffrey is of royalty, the Lannisters (Cersei) are a proud house, married into the royal family. So therefore Joffrey is of house Baratheon AND Lannister. That is why the Lannister sigil stands besides the Baratheons. Because they, specifically Cersei, should be seen as equal to the king.

And while Jon makes this seem like it’s wrong or not needed, Arya disagrees with him. She tells him that the women should not be forgotten, as they should be seen as equal to the men. That the women are just as important as the men, and that it would be of good conduct to not forget that. And with that being said, she never acknowledges that Joffrey’s mother is too lady-like or too feminine to be seen as an equal to the king. Nope. Although she does question later as to why if women cannot fight, why should they have a coat of arms. Though that is hardly the point of her argument.

Another point that makes people believe that Arya is not feminine or does not support femininity, is when she flat out says to Ned that she hates the idea of being a lady.

“Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.”

“I don’t want to be a lady,” Arya flared.

Alot of people misinterpret this as Arya not wanting to be a noblewoman, because she only likes to play with swords, and get dirty. Because acting like a lady is stupid and not her. This is simply not true. Arya has no problem with women, or being a lady. She is a lady. A highborn one. What she does have a problem with is that being a lady often means being trapped in the conformities of what society percieves to be the acceptable standard for women in this time period.

All of the acceptable standards is what Sansa is. And she is not like Sansa. She does not believe herself to be a lady like her sister or her mother. When she first reveals her true identity to Gendry in ACOK, he immediately apologizes to her for his behavior and calls her m’lady. :3 Arya unfortunately sees this as a form of mockery and an attack because while Gendry acknowledges that she is a lady, Arya doesn’t act like a typical lady or even look like one. That insecurity of not being a lady like her mother and sister makes her believe that Gendry is using her sex against her. Like a form of irony. But I mean, we all know that’s far from the truth, lol!

And Jon recognizes this too! It’s the reason why they are so close and tightly knit together. Because Jon understands Arya, and sees her insecurity like how she sees his. They are one and the same. Jon sees and understands Arya’s frustrations of sexism viewed in Westeros. He acknowledges that Arya is to become a lady. But he also sees that Arya is not the conventional type of lady wanting to stick to the norms. She is a different type of lady, and to him, that is okay. He may tease her for it once in a while, pointing out all the unfair limitations that women have to go through. But he accepts her for being this unconventional noblewoman, and often encourages her to pursue being different.

“Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Later when Jon and Arya say their goodbyes, Jon gifts Arya with the swords. Needle. This is his way of saying, fuck all them haters, be who you wanna be. Solidifying the idea that he supports her and accepts her for who she is. Kinda like how Tyrion told him to use his identity as armour, Arya should do the same to herself. It’s okay to be different than the rest. Fuck the rules.

It’s not that Arya hates the idea of being a lady. It’s a far cry from that. It’s the sexism that goes along with being the typical lady that infruiates her. Arya loves running around, riding horses, playing with swords, being loud and adventurous. She has a firery temper to her. And just because she likes doing all of that, and is all of that, it doesn’t mean, shouldn’t mean that she isn’t a lady. That she can’t be a lady. All of those things shouldn’t limit her to being viewed as a girl, a highborn lady. She is a woman, and she identifies as one.

“Listen to him, boy.”

“It was the third time he had called her “boy.” “I’m a girl,” Arya objected.

That is why, even though she sees herself as a woman, she often tells herself and other people that she is not a lady. Despite others telling her that she is one. Her insecurity and her frustrations do not allow her to see herself as a lady because she isn’t a “conventional woman.”

But the thing is, even though Arya doesn’t enjoy most of the typical lady-like things, she still has a ton of femininity to her. And people often ignore her more feminine traits in favor of her more “badassery” side, which unfortunately are most often occupied by men. People forget and downright ignore that Arya is really intelligent. She particularly excels in math. It’s one of the few things that she’s better at than Sansa. She loves flowers—like her aunt Lyanna. The very person who she’s said to look and act like the most. And a really important one is that she has motherly instincts. It’s what helps her protect other kids throughout her journey. Her ability to empathize enables her to be more social with outcasts and befriend others without judgement. She is well-mannered and kind to strangers. (An example of this would be when she apologizes to a common woman who lent her a dress to wear, and she accidentally destroys it because she and Gendry were playing by the acorn tree.) She can also cook and clean just like any other woman—or any other person. All of those are feminine traits, and are traits that make her more human. And the show opted to get rid of all that and gave us some cold-hearted, angry, ninja.

The audience perceives that because Arya is this ninja warrior who rejects the common standards of being a lady, it means that she can’t have these other more female traits. Nope. She’s not allowed to have or want more rights and power because that’s not her. She’s a warrior and nothing more. She can’t find love because she has to be this bad-ass independent woman who don’t need no man. That’s not her, that’s her sister. We can’t have Arya be any more female than she already is because she rejects the idea of being female. Leave all that crap to her sister! Sansa’s the princess—and we can’t have Arya being a princess or queen. Arya’s only allowed to carry a sword.

And it’s the audience’s perception of her that goes against everything that Arya is, and everything that she believes in. Because remember, Arya hates the idea that being a lady means being trapped in the societal norms. And it can be said vice versa too. Arya still respects those who want to be more of the conventional type. Arya may not have the more typical feminine traits that make her a lady, but to hell with it! It doesn’t mean that she’s not allowed to have the other things that the more conventional woman would/should have. That goes against all of her views and beliefs. The audience puts Arya at an unfair standard because she doesn’t act like a conventional woman.

It’s the same thing as the audience saying that Jon Snow doesn’t want a title or power, because he’s devoted his life to the Nights Watch and is unselfish. False. Very false. Just like Arya. Arya’s young. She still has time to grow, and no doubt she doesn’t think of all those things now because of other priorities. But she’s slowly getting there. And there is so much foreshadowing of her finding love, becoming a woman gaining power, etc, etc. She’s not there yet, but that’s a part of her growth. Just because she defies the typical female standards, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t want or wont want all those things later.

Like com’on. Everyone knows that Arya is the only legitimate candidate right now to inherit the North. Everyone knows. The Northmen know, the Nights Watch knows, the people in Kings Landing knows. Hell, even the damn wildings know this. And it’s because of this knowledge that formed the majority of the northern plotline in ADWD. People are going to war for her. She is the true key to the North, and that’s why the Boltons lied and said that they have her. It’s why Jon went to war and died for her. I don’t think Arya will truly believe it if/when she finds out that people are fighting for her because she holds the power to the North. Unless Jon’s gonna be the one to tell her himself. The fact that she is being set up to inherit all this power, and yet people deny it and believe that she doesn’t want it because it’s “not her” in regards that she’s not feminine enough, is seriously infuriating.

I mean look at the type of women Arya respects and idolizes. Where do you think she got the name Nymeria from? Nymeria’s name originates from the Princess of Dorne herself, Princess Nymeria of Ny Sar. Princess Nymeria was said be very beautiful, strong-willed, cunning, and full of wisdom. She was a “warrior-queen.” From that alone, her femininity clearly did not matter. She was a woman whose goals were not held back because of her femininity and sex.

Arya does not hate femininity or things that makes women more feminine. She doesn’t truly hate wearing dresses or being a lady. It’s being conformed to the general standards that she hates. It’s her sex being used against her that makes her angry. It’s not being able to be herself that she despises. And thanks to Sansa and her mother’s judgement of her, Arya’s insecurity only heightened. Despite looking exactly like Lyanna, Arya herself believes that she’s not beautiful enough to even be considered a lady. Only Jon and Ned allowed Arya to be Arya. Only they called her beautiful, and only they encouraged her to be who she wanted to be. Arya loves her fellow women. And yeah, she also loves Sansa despite her being such a pain in the ass bitch, lol.

Arya’s character encourages women to just be women. She encourages us the audience to just be ourselves despite all the conformities forced upon us. Her character explores the limitations of sex, gender, and especially the loss of identity. Arya not wanting to be a lady doesn’t actually mean she doesn’t want to be a lady. She doesn’t want to be held back by the standards of being a lady. Her question, her argument is that why should women be limited only to being this or that. Women are far more than meets the typical standard, and if society can’t accept it, then fuck that! Women can be knights and still be a lady. They can be fierce and passionate and emotional and still be a lady. Women can be warriors and still be a lady. Just because there are some women out there who don’t fit the ideal standards of what it means to be lady, it shouldn’t make them feel like less than one.

#Arya Stark #Arya Stark meta #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #jon snow #Gendry Baratheon #Jonrya #Gendrya #Arya is a feminist #When is TWOW come out?! I miss her!!#Also shes going through puberty in the next book so uh that’ll be interesting hm?#Ya’ll Dany may be going mad in the books too #But I mean Dany and Arya NEED to interact at least 1 pls George give it to me :(#Anti GOT

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butterflies-dragons · 4 years

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Hello! I love your blog. Your meta about women in Jon’s life and Lyanna was so good. Antis always try to ignore the Sansa and Lyanna parallels which is absurd because her story is so similar with Sansa’s... I guess they want to ignore those because they don’t want Sansa to be destined with a Targaryen prince (aka jonsa 🤭). So thanks for pointing them out. Are you planning to write a meta just about Sansa and Lyanna? It would be a good guide for our jonsa arguments. Have a nice day.

Hello Anon,

Thanks for your words.

Antis and haters gonna oppose and hate. That’s their thing. They questioned and denied every parallel that Lyanna and Sansa actually share, and proceed to attack anyone who dare to say they share those parallels. What’s knew about that?

Lyanna and Arya parallels are textual evident, they are easily spotted but they could be easily questioned as well, especially because most of the statements about Lyanna came from Ned, and he is not only an unreliable narrator, but his memories of Lyanna are embellished by love and trauma. If you contrast what Ned said about Lyanna with other sources, not so biased, Ned’s statements about her don’t look so evident and solid anymore.

Anyway, do you want me to talk more about Lyanna and Sansa parallels? Here you go:

Summary

Original Outline

Beauty

The wolf-blood

She-Wolves of Winterfell

Inner Strength

Sword & Armor

Knights protect the innocent

Singers & Songs

The Rose of Winterfell

Blue Winter Roses

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves

Targaryen Imagery

Dead before their time

Ladies of Winterfell

Bonus

LYANNA & SANSA

Original Outline & ASOIAF:

Sansa in the Original Outline:

‘Original Outline Sansa’ was very similar to Lyanna Stark.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. (...) Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

[Source]

As you can see, the ‘Original Outline Sansa’ shares parallels with Lyanna Stark and Elia Martel:

Romantically involved with the King/Heir of the Iron Throne

Mothers of their sons

Dead while protecting their children

Unwillingly caused the death of family members

Tagged as members of dubious loyalty to their paternal families

Regretted their doomed romances

But ¿How marrying the heir of the Iron Throne/King of the 7K is supposed to be an act of dubious loyalty? GRRM has stated that in high nobility there is no marriage without the Lord Father of the bride’s blessing. Furthermore, from the wedding the bride belongs to her husband’s house, that’s all the fuzz with the cloaking ceremony, going from the maiden’s cloak to your husband’s cloak. You left your paternal house to belong with your husbands house. Sansa’s loyalty was with her husband, and more important, Sansa’s love and loyalty was with her baby boy. So, how choosing his baby over her paternal house could be seem as an act of dubious loyalty then? And even if she wanted to come back to her paternal family, does she really get a chance without the risk of being captured, separated from her baby, accused of treason and executed, leaving her baby boy motherless?

But according to the Original Outline, there was an enmity between Starks and Lannisters. So, or Joffrey abducted Sansa, or Sansa eloped to marry Joffrey. How very Shakespearean! Romeo and Juliet all over again. Or even better, Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark all over again.

It is also implied by the fandom that this ‘Original Outline Sansa’ dies because the outline says that Jaime dethrones and kills Joffrey and “everyone ahead of him in the line of succession” (Sansa’s baby). Well, Sansa was not in the line of succession, but it’s probable that Jaime had to kill her to get to her baby boy, which reminds me of Elia Martell and her babies’ tragic deaths.

Sansa in Asoiaf:

Asoiaf Sansa never married Joffrey, never bore him a son, and she’s still alive. But she still shares a lot of similarities with her aunt Lyanna.

Both Lyanna and Sansa got infatuated by silver/golden princes, Rhaegar Targaryen and Joffrey Baratheon, and because of those romantic relationships, they unintentionally played a part in the deaths of their fathers and older brothers, Rickard and Brandon, and Ned and Robb. Later, both of them ended trapped in towers regretting their doomed romances.

According to GRRM, Asoiaf Sansa played a part in her father Ned Stark’s death. But I would say that Sansa’s fault lays more in trusting the wrong people than betraying Ned. The act of betrayal requires willful intent, and Sansa never wanted to betray her father. And we can say the same about Lyanna, she trusted Rhaegar over her family, ran away from her approved betrothal, lived a forbidden romance, and died after giving birth a son to her silver prince.

Sansa and Lyanna commit the same actions, but Lyanna gets more sympathy from the readers than Sansa, who is still considered a member of dubious loyalty or plainly a traitor to the Starks.

Also, as it was pointed out before, “Rickard Stark and Catelyn Stark both saw their firstborn sons murdered in front of them, while convinced that their daughters were far away being raped and abused by cruel princes, and then were brutally murdered themselves”.

Beauty:

Both Lyanna and Sansa are considered beautiful, but in different ways.

While Lyanna had a wild beauty:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.” —AGOT - Arya II

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. —AGOT - Eddard I

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

“The maid’s a fair one,” Osha said. —AGOT - Bran VII

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he [Kevan] recalled. —ADWD - Epilogue

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. —The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Sansa possesses a traditional beauty:

Sansa’s needlework was exquisite. Everyone said so. “Sansa’s work is as pretty as she is”, Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. —AGOT - Arya I

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily. —AGOT - Arya I

Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. —AGOT - Arya I

“I [Ser Cleos Frey] saw Sansa at the court, the day Tyrion told me his terms. She looked most beautiful, my lady. Perhaps a, a bit wan. Drawn, as it were.” —ACOK - Catelyn VI

Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was. —ACOK - Catelyn VII

“You are very beautiful, my lady,” the seamstress said when she was dressed. —ASOS - Sansa III

Ser Kevan told her she was beautiful, Jalabhar Xho said something she did not understand in the Summer Tongue, and Lord Redwyne wished her many fat children and long years of joy. —ASOS - Sansa III

“Ser Ossifer speaks truly, you are the most beautiful maid in all the Seven Kingdoms.” —TWOW - Alayne I

“Had we known such beauty awaited us at the Gates, we would have flown,” Ser Roland said. Though his words were addressed to Myranda Royce, he smiled at Alayne as he said them. —TWOW - Alayne I

The wolf-blood:

Lyanna:

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

“I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. “A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table,” she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. “She’s not a dog, she’s a direwolf,” Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. “Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.” The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” She scowled. “And where is Arya this morning?"

—AGOT - Sansa I

"It won’t be so bad, Sansa,” Arya said. “We’re going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we’ll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest.” She touched her on the arm. “Hodor!” Sansa yelled. “You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!” She wrenched away from her sister’s hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her.

—AGOT - Sansa III

Jeyne yawned. “Are there any lemon cakes?” Sansa did not like being interrupted, but she had to admit, lemon cakes sounded more interesting than most of what had gone on in the throne room. “Let’s see,” she said. The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, and Sansa went to bed that night feeling almost as wicked as Arya.

—AGOT - Sansa III

After my name day feast, I’m going to raise a host and kill your brother myself. That’s what I’ll give you, Lady Sansa. Your brother’s head.“ A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head.”

—AGOT - Sansa VI

She-Wolves of Winterfell:

Lyanna is literally the she-wolf in the tale of “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”:

But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

"A wolf on four legs, or two?"

"Two," said Meera.

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa went from a “wolf girl” to the she-wolf that killed a king:

He smiled at her. "Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand’s daughter.”

—AGOT - Sansa I

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

—ASOS - Arya XIII

“May the Father judge him justly,” murmured a septon. “The dwarf’s wife did the murder with him,” swore an archer in Lord Rowan’s livery. “Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws.”

—ASOS - Jaime VII

“Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa,” said Pycelle. The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.

—AFFC - Cersei IV

What a kick-ass reputation: Sansa, the she-wolf that killed King Joffrey!

Inner Strength:

Lyanna:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

Sansa:

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel. —ASOS - Sansa V

Sansa lost her direwolf Lady, and with her, the possibility to develop her abilities as a warg. But GRRM has still made Sansa an skinchanger through poetry. Her skin has changed to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

Sword & Armor

While Lyanna might have carried a sword, Sansa Stark is a lady armored in courtesy and she polishes her armor with her wits. As Tyrion Lannister said:

My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind … and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." Tyrion tapped the leather cover of the book. "That's why I read so much, Jon Snow."

—AGOT - Tyrion II

Lyanna:

Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes.

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady’s armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, “I’m sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord.”

—ACOK - Sansa I

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say. “I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he … is he as great a knight as his brothers?”

—ASOS - Sansa I

“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?” “It will please me to please my lord husband.” That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.” “Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that. “I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.” “And my clothing?” “That too.” He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.”

—ASOS - Sansa III

He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy. Was that what made him speak? Or just the need to distract himself from the fullness in his bladder?

[...]

Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

—ASOS - Tyrion VIII

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”

[...]

A lady’s armor is her courtesy. Alayne could feel the blood rushing to her face. No tears, she prayed. Please, please, I must not cry. “As you wish, ser. And now if you will excuse me, Littlefinger’s bastard must find her lord father and let him know that you have come, so we can begin the tourney on the morrow.” And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt. She showed the Waynwoods a stone face as they blurted out awkward apologies for their companion. When they were done she turned and fled.

—TWOW - Alayne I

Knights protect the innocent:

Lyanna, as herself and as “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”, defended Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

“None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” “A wolf on four legs, or two?” “Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

(…)

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.”

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved Dontos Hollard’s life, a defenestrated knight turned fool:

The king stood. “A cask from the cellars! I’ll see him drowned in it.” Sansa heard herself gasp. “No, you can’t.” Joffrey turned his head. “What did you say?” Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn’t meant to say anything, only … Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm. “Did you say I can’t? Did you?” “Please,” Sansa said, “I only meant … it would be ill luck, Your Grace … to, to kill a man on your name day.” “You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.” “I don’t care for him, Your Grace.” The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only … kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please … not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck … terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so …” Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this. “The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.” His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she’d said, desperate to avoid punishment. Unhappy, Joffrey shifted in his seat and flicked his fingers at Ser Dontos. “Take him away. I’ll have him killed on the morrow, the fool.” “He is,” Sansa said. “A fool. You’re so clever, to see it. He’s better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn’t he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn’t deserve the mercy of a quick death.” The king studied her a moment. “Perhaps you’re not so stupid as Mother says.” He raised his voice. “Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you’re my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley."

—ACOK - Sansa I

Singers & Songs:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with singers and romantic songs.

Lyanna loved a singer and became a lady in a song, her own tragic romantic story:

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle.

—ASOS - Bran II

The wolf maid was Lyanna Stark hearing her dragon prince Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp.

And curiously enough, a blue eyed redhead man called Jon also wept while hearing Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp:

At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course.

—A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

Jon Connington was, of course, in love with Rhaegar Targaryen...

Sansa:

Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. “The man has played us every song he knows thrice over,” Lord Eddard told her gently. “I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come.”

They hadn’t, though, not for a year or more. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent.

But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

—A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

Bran and his brothers and sisters sat with the king's children, Joffrey and Tommen and Princess Myrcella, who'd spent the whole meal gazing at Robb with adoring eyes. Arya made faces across the table when no one was looking; Sansa listened raptly while the king's high harper sang songs of chivalry, and Rickon kept asking why Jon wasn't with them. "Because he's a bastard," Bran finally had to whisper to him.

—ACOK - Bran III

Later, while Sansa was off listening to a troupe of singers perform the complex round of interwoven ballads called the “Dance of the Dragons,” [sung in High Valyrian] Ned inspected the bruise himself. “I hope Forel is not being too hard on you,” he said.

—AGOT - Eddard VII

She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen.

—AGOT - Sansa IV

After the meal had been cleared away, many of the guests asked leave to go to the sept. Cersei graciously granted their request. Lady Tanda and her daughters were among those who fled. For those who remained, a singer was brought forth to fill the hall with the sweet music of the high harp. He sang of Jonquil and Florian, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and his love for his brother’s queen, of Nymeria’s ten thousand ships. They were beautiful songs, but terribly sad. Several of the women began to weep, and Sansa felt her own eyes growing moist.

—ACOK - Sansa VI

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.

—ASOS - Arya IV

Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.” “Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled. (...) “Why did she jump in the sea, though?” "Her heart was broken." Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.

—ASOS - Arya VIII

"Do you require guarding?” Marillion said lightly. “I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,’ I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her.”

—ASOS - Sansa VII

Lyanna and Sansa are also linked with the tale of Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell.

The Rose of Winterfell:

This is the tale:

According to free folk legend, Lord Brandon Stark, the liege of the north, once called Bael a coward. To take revenge for this affront and prove his courage, Bael climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad, and entered Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos. (“Sygerrik” means “deceiver” in the Old Tongue.) There, he sang until midnight for the lord.

Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked Bael what he wanted as a reward, but he requested only the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell’s gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon Stark presented him with one. The following morning, the maiden daughter of Lord Stark had disappeared, his only child, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night’s Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found Bael or the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her arms an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael’s bastard with Brandon’s daughter became the new Lord Stark.

Thirty years later, Bael was King-Beyond-the-Wall and led the wildlings’ army south, and he had to fight his own son at the Frozen Ford. There, incapable of killing his own blood, he let himself be killed by Lord Stark. His son brought back Bael’s head to Winterfell, and his mother who had loved the bard, seeing the trophy, killed herself by leaping from the top of a tower. The son was eventually slain by the Boltons.

[Source]

Jon’s first and only lover, Ygritte, told him this story:

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” “I am.” “Who was your mother?” “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?” “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.” “Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. (...) “Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider.” (...) “The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.” “North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’” “Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.” Jon had never heard this tale before. (...) “Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.” “Bael had brought her back?” “No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

—ACOK - Jon VI

This tale resembles Jon’s own story: Bael the Bard and Rhaegar Targaryen, both harp players, “abducted” a Stark maid, Brandon’s daughter and Lyanna, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’. Rhaegar also crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty with blue winter roses, and they procreated a “bastard” son, Jon Snow. Lyanna died after giving birth to Jon, and the memories of that tragic even haunted Ned, who remembers the Lyanna bleeding and the blue winter roses:

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Immediately after this chapter, comes ACOK - Sansa IV, where Sansa got her first period.

So after a chapter about ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’ it follows the chapter where Sansa Stark becomes a maid, Sansa literally flowered.

Next chapter is Jon again. There is a succession of Jon-Sansa-Jon chapters, that linked them thematically.

Also take note that Sansa was “abducted” by Petyr Baelish, a known deceiver, whose surname has a resemblance with the name Bael.

Blue Winter Roses:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with flowers, but especially with roses:

Lyanna and the blue winter roses:

Ned could recall none of it. ”I bring her flowers when I can,“ he said. ”Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

—A Game Of Thrones - Eddard I

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa Stark:

It was enough that she could walk in the yard, pick flowers in Myrcella’s garden, and visit the sept to pray for her father. Sometimes she prayed in the godswood as well, since the Starks kept the old gods.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst. To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. She inhaled the sweet fragrance of the rose and sat clutching it long after Ser Loras had ridden off.

—AGOT - Sansa II

—ASOS - Sansa VII

So we have Marillion, a singer, composing a song for Alayne Stone, Sansa Stark in disguise, that he meant to call “The Roadside Rose”

And Loras Tyrell, The Knight of Flowers, gave Sansa a single red rose. I will expand on this next, because Loras giving Sansa a red rose is an allegory in reverse of Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of blue winter roses.

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty:

Lyanna was a Mystery Knight AND was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree

Lyanna, as herself and as a mystery knight, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, defended the crannogman, Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists. Bran nodded sagely. […] “It was the little crannogman, I bet.” “No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.” […] “Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.” —ASOS - Bran II

Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Rhaegar Targaryen wearing an armor adorned with rubies (red) gave Lyanna a crown of winter roses (blue):

The Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

—AGOT - Eddard I

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa as a “Knight”

During the Tourney in honor of King Joffrey’s Name Day, Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved the life of Ser Dontos Hollard, a defenestrated knight turned fool, as I explained above.

Sansa as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Art credit: Loras Tyrell Gives Sansa Stark a Rose and the Hand’s Tournament by Jonathan Burton.

Sansa was the unofficial Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney of the Hand. GRRM wrote this passage as a resemble of the Tourney at Harrenhal, hiding hints and reversing colors.

Sansa attended the Tourney of the Hand at Kings Landing and met Petyr Baelish who told her that her mother, Catelyn Tully, was his Queen of Love and Beauty:

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. “You have her hair.” His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away. —AGOT - Sansa II

Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, wearing an armor adorned with sapphires (blue) gave Sansa a (red) rose:

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape. —AGOT - Eddard VII

During the second day of the tourney, Sansa wore the red rose in her hair:

The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. “Father, don’t let Ser Gregor hurt him,” she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well. —AGOT - Eddard VII

The Tourney at the Gates of the Moon

And at this point in the Books, Sansa, as Alayne Stone, is organizing a tourney to elect the members of Robert Arryn’s personal guard, named the Brotherhood of the Winged Knights.

Alayne Stone’s betrothed, Harrold Hardyng, known as Harry the Heir, is competing in the tourney.

Since her betrothed is competing in the jousting and since she is daughter of Petyr Baelish, Lord Protector of the Vale, Alayne Stone has great chances to be crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty of the tourney.

The Tourney at Ashford Meadows

Sansa has also strong links with the Tourney at Ashford Meadows, but this is a matter for another time.

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon:

Both Lyanna and Sansa were betrothed with a Baratheon, Lyanna with Robert and Sansa with Joffrey:

If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done. —AGOT - Eddard I

There is also this parallel between Jenny of Oldstones, Lyanna & Sansa [I wrote about it here]:

Note the parallels between Duncan Targaryen, his betrothed Baratheon and Jenny of Oldstones & Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark and her betrothed Robert Baratheon: A Targaryen prince breaking an engagement with a member of House Baratheon that then originates a rebellion.

And this: Sansa was betrothed with Joffrey “Baratheon” and the engagement was broken in the middle of a war with Robb Stark leading an army against King Joffrey, and Jon almost breaking his vows to join Robb’s army to avenge Ned’s death and rescue their sisters. All of which makes me think about these parallels: Sansa being a hostage in King’s Landing & Lyanna’s “abduction”, Ned’s death & Rickard’s death, Robb’s death & Brandon’s death. And that leaves Jon to possibly play the role of Ned Stark in the future.

Basically if Jon and Sansa happens, they will parallel two stories: Rhaegar and Lyanna, a Targaryen/Stark couple; and Ned and Cat, a Stark/Tully couple.

And right now in the Books, Sansa Stark, under the disguise of Alayne Stone, is betrothed with a Robert-like young man: Harrold Hardyng, also known as Harry the Heir:

Both orphaned boys

Both wards at the Vale

Both handsome and physically strong

Both linked to Jon Arryn and the Vale

Both fathered bastards in the Vale: Mya Stone // Alys Stone

Both involved in a conflict with a cousin: Robert killed his cousin Rhaegar and became King // If Robert Arryn dies, his cousin Harry will be new Lord Arryn.

Both betrothed to a Stark girl: Lyanna Stark // (Alayne Stone) Sansa Stark

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves:

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

—AGOT - Eddard III

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

—AGOT - Eddard IV

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Lyanna was pleading to her brother Ned to protect her son, while Sansa was pleading to her father Ned to protect her direwolf, Lady, part of Sansa’s soul. Later, Ned regretted failing Sansa…

Sansa’s pleading and repeating the word “promise”, triggered Ned’s trauma over Lyanna’s death. That also happened when Robert asked Ned to protect his children.

Targaryen Imagery:

Sansa’s chapters hide hints about Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Indeed, Sansa Stark has a very interesting imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire. I wrote more about it here.

Sansa’s Ivory silk dress stained with blood orange juice and ashes

“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.” She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

“You have juice on your face, Your Grace,” Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. “You’re horrible,” she screamed at her sister. “They should have killed you instead of Lady!”

(…)

“Arya started it,” Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. “She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I’m going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can’t stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.”

(…)

“Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. “I hate her!” she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night’s fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.”

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

When the king’s herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she’d had them dye it black and you couldn’t see the stain at all. She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa V

Take note that the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black” so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all.

Oh George! Your wording here is just genius!

Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her moonblood and fire

When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid.

But as she crouched there, on her hands and knees, understanding came. “No, please,” Sansa whimpered, “please, no.” She didn’t want this happening to her, not now, not here, not now, not now, not now, not now.

Madness took hold of her. Pulling herself up by the bedpost, she went to the basin and washed between her legs, scrubbing away all the stickiness. By the time she was done, the water was pink with blood. When her maidservants saw it they would know. Then she remembered the bedclothes. She rushed back to the bed and stared in horror at the dark red stain and the tale it told. All she could think was that she had to get rid of it, or else they’d see. She couldn’t let them see, or they’d marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him.

Snatching up her knife, Sansa hacked at the sheet, cutting out the stain. If they ask me about the hole, what will I say? Tears ran down her face. She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well. I’ll have to burn them. She balled up the evidence, stuffed it in the fireplace, drenched it in oil from her bedside lamp, and lit it afire. Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed, so she bundled that up as well, but it was big and cumbersome, hard to move. Sansa could get only half of it into the fire. She was on her knees, struggling to shove the mattress into the flames as thick grey smoke eddied around her and filled the room, when the door burst open and she heard her maid gasp.

In the end it took three of them to pull her away. And it was all for nothing. The bedclothes were burnt, but by the time they carried her off her thighs were bloody again. It was as if her own body had betrayed her to Joffrey, unfurling a banner of Lannister crimson for all the world to see.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

Even if the color of the bedclothes was not stated as white/off-white, it’s very probable that they were of white or an off-white color, like ivory. So, again, we find this very interesting imagery in Sansa’s chapters: white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire.

And this passage of a bed stained with blood that must be hidden makes me think about Ned’s dream of Lyanna’s death:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

So I think there is another pattern here: betrothal, marriage and giving birth.

As I said before, the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei; and, as Sansa stated, the bedclothes stained with her moonblood was a proof of her having reached her womanhood and thus able to do her duty and marry Joffrey and bear his children.

Moreover, after Sansa’s first moonblood, she had this conversation with Cersei:

“I don’t blame you. Between Tyrion and Lord Stannis, everything I eat tastes of ash. And now you’re setting fires as well. What did you hope to accomplish?”

Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.”

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.”

Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I … I thought it would be different.”

“Different how?”

“I don’t know. Less … less messy, and more magical.”

Queen Cersei laughed. “Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough … and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.” She took a sip of milk. “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?”

“It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.”

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

An ivory silk dress, a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black”, so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s betrothal to Robert Baratheon being “stained” by Rhaegar Targaryen. And then, of course, of Jon Snow hidden in the Wall as a Black Brother/Black Knight of the Night’s Watch.

Again, Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her flowering blood and then with fire to hide the stain, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s bed of blood after she gave birth Jon Snow, the baby that had to be hidden so his Targaryen identity couldn’t be seem at all.

A white wool cloak stained by blood and fire

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII

Out of the three passages with this imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire, this one, the one you asked for, has the more evident references of Jon Snow’s true parentage as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Here we have Sansa huddled beneath a white kingsguard cloak stained by blood of the death during the Battle of the Blackwater and wildfire.

I think most of the readers get distracted from the Jon Snow’s true parentage hints here, because they romanticize this scene and believe it foreshadows some romantic future events for her involving the Hound, based in the fact that Sansa had covered herself with “the Hounds cloak” twice. But the relationship between Sansa and the white cloaks is -by far- larger than that; it has more to do with the ideals of knighthood and chivalry, than with the men wearing them.

As you can see, GRRM has plagued Sansa’s chapters with hints of Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Dead before their time:

Lyanna:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

And so many others were missing. Where had the rest of them gone? Sansa wondered. Vainly, she searched for friendly faces. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Lyanna and Lady (part of Sansa’s soul) both died in the south, before their time.

Lyanna’s ghost has haunted Cersei over the years, Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar but ended married with Robert. Both Rhaegar and Robert loved Lyanna.

Lady is mentioned in the Books as a “shade”, a synonym for ghost. And after Ned’s death, Sansa became a ghost at the Red Keep’s court.

Sansa and Lady also haunt Cersei, as she remembered them both during her walk of atonement:

The queen began to see familiar faces. (...) She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf.

—ADWD - Cersei II

At the end, only the remains of Lyanna and Lady returned home, to the North, to Winterfell.

Ladies of Winterfell:

Lyanna’s and Lady’s bones are buried at Winterfell, what makes them literally Ladies of Winterfell:

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. “She deserved more than darkness …” “She was a Stark of Winterfell,” Ned said quietly. “This is her place.”

—AGOT - Eddard I

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice. When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.” “All that way?” Jory said, astonished. “All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”

—AGOT - Eddard III

Bran felt all cold inside. “She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

—AGOT - Bran VI

Lady’s death and his return to the North to rest in Winterfell is linked with Lyanna’s death and her own path back home. I wrote about this before:

Now, back to Lady’s death. We know that this event is a turning point in Sansa’s arc, but other than that, the paragraphs leading to the direwolf’s execution are laden with symbolism and foreshadowing, not only for Sansa, but for Ned as well.

During the “trial”, Ned decides that he will take Lady’s life himself, in order to avoid having a butcher like Ilyn Payne do the execution. Then, before he struck, he pronounced her name in the same fashion Robb and Jon called the name of their direwolves before they both died. This for me foreshadows Ned’s own death. Also, before Lady’s death, Ned pleads King Robert to change his decision on putting down the direwolf, appealing to the memory of Lyanna, the woman Robert loved. Similarly, before Ned’s execution at the steps of the Sept of Baelor, Sansa pleads King Joffrey to spare her father’s life, appealing to the love he has for her. As we know, both pleas fell on deaf ears and both Lady and Ned lost their lives; bringing the story full circle, as Ilyn Payne himself cut off Ned’s head.

Another interesting thing is that before Lady’s death we have direct and indirect references to Lyanna Stark. We have the direct reference when Ned appealed to the love Robert Baratheon bore Lyanna, in order to save Lady’s life, and the indirect one when he ordered Jory to choose four men to return Lady’s body to the north, to bury her in Winterfell. This order Ned gave to his men alludes to his own decision to take Lyanna’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypts, after her demise, brought on by her doomed love affair with Rhaegar Targaryen.

And to finish this post, here some gifsets that illustrate some of the discussed parallels:

Sansa Stark and Lyanna Stark + parallels

Pleading

She-wolves of Winterfell

Beautiful, Captivating Child-Women

Hidden Metal ft. hair parallels

Broken ‘Baratheon’ Engagements ft. more hair parallels

Fair Maidens

BONUS

Lyanna and Sansa in the first Show pilot:

In The Original, Terrible ‘Game Of Thrones’ Pilot That Never Aired, there was a scene where Cersei burned the feather that Robert left at Lyanna’s statue in the Winterfell Crypts:

The Cersei scene that might ruffle some feathers

Let’s begin with a defining scene between King Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypts.

The scene that aired on HBO is slightly different from the scene in the Cushing script, but the gist is the same. Robert asks Ned to be his new Hand of the King, a position left open after Jon Arryn’s death. That’s when Robert places something small but highly symbolic on a statue of his onetime betrothed, Lyanna Stark: a feather.

And that pretty much sums up the sequence you saw in Season 1

But in the script found in the Cushing library, Queen Cersei plays a pivotal role in this exchange’s aftermath ― so much so that her involvement would have changed a Season 5 episode, the recent Season 8 teaser and possibly more.

The following scene is written into the pilot script found at Cushing and involves Cersei visiting the crypts right before the feast at Winterfell:

Cersei exits the crypts, crosses the courtyard and walks into the antechamber between the kitchen and the Winterfell great hall. The celebration for the king’s arrival is underway, and servants are rushing past her with food. The queen’s handmaidens make adjustments to her outfit and remove her heavy fur.

Then Cersei reveals something she has inside her sleeve:

“A word with the Stark girl”. I have no doubt this meant Sansa.

We didn’t get to watch this scene, Cersei never came down to the Winterfell Crypts, and she never took the feather Robert left there for Lyanna. But a few seasons later, we got to watch a scene of Sansa at the Winterfell Crypts, next to her aunt Lyanna’s statue, where she found the same feather that King Robert left there years ago...

...And Petyr Baelish told her the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar at the Tourney of Harrenhal.... I wrote more about it here.

I hope this is enough.

Thanks for your message and good night.

#Sansa Stark #Lyanna Stark #parallels #anon ask #Sansa & Lyanna parallels #Lyanna & Sansa parallels

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asknightqueendany · 5 years

Note

Hi, I saw a screenshot of a talk on Instagram on a fanpage I follow on my main and it basically said “the way sansa talks about ned umber and alys kastark (children) about giving their homes to loyal families. lmao, when Sansa basically talked for three seasons about how winterfell was given to the Boltons for being loyal to the crown and how it was her home (1/2)

She went and took it back and now wants to kick out the kids for fighting alongside the Boltons, when everyone has to be loyal to the crown, not just the starks” and then someone else added on “so the Tarly's were right for being loyal to the crown” and then another said “that means Dany had no right to execute the Tarly's and was in the wrong” Is that argument right? Was Dany wrong? Sorry I know you must get this question a lot, but is it true?

I’ve written many a meta about this but I’m having trouble finding them. Damnit, I need to tag my shit better. Sorry anon.

Anyway...

Antis like to argue in circles. They’ll fuck up their own arguments, just to make an argument against Daenerys. So jot that down.

Antis want Sansa to always be right. So, according to the Sansa Always Right Logic, Sansa was in the right to try to kick Alys and Ned out of their homes as punishment for their fathers siding with Ramsay.

However, Roose Bolton was given Winterfell by the Lannisters and made Warden of the North. To go against him would be treason ,because it would essentially be going against the crown.

Now, some antis say that Roose marrying Ramsay to Sansa nulled his allegiance to the crown because she was wanted for Joffrey’s murder. It’s one of their “loopholes.”

Another “loophole” is that Robb was named King in the North and therefore that nulled allegiance to the Lannister’s/the crown of the 7K. Meaning anyone who had ever sworn allegiance to Robb and named him King was bound to him for all time even after his death and anyone who went against the Starks was committing “treason.”

But you see how these arguments are so flimsy, right?

However, I have one simply solution to all this:

Everything the Starks say is correct.

Let’s go with this anti logic, shall we? The Starks are always right. Whatever the Starks say, goes.

So, in Season 1, Robb called his banners when Ned was taken prisoner in King’s Landing. Keep in mind, no info about Joff’s parentage had reached them yet. They just knew Robert Baratheon was dead, and that Ned tried to stage a coup. This is very important. So far as what they’ve got to work on, the Starks only have suspicions that Ned has been taken prisoner under false accusations. They have no proof that he’s innocent and really have nothing to go on as to why he may have done what he actually did - which was try to seize power from Joffrey.

When Robb calls his banners, he gets into an argument with GreatJon Umber. Umber tells Robb if he can’t lead the vanguard, he’ll just stay home and not help Robb go south to rescue Ned.

Remember, the North at this point hasn’t declared independence. They’re still technically loyal to the crown. Robb at this point just wants to get Ned back.

When GreatJon tells him he won’t go, Robb says that Umber is welcome to stay at home, but if he does, when they’re finished with the Lannisters, they’ll march back North and hang Umber for a traitor.

So according to Robb, loyalty to a bannerman trumps loyalty to the crown. Treason against a bannerman is more severe than treason against the crown. A bannerman MUST follow their liege lord even when said lord goes up against the crown.

By this logic, the Tarlys were traitors. They went against their liege lord. Not only did they disobey Olenna, they flat out betrayed her and had a hand in her murder and the destruction of her entire household. They’re like, double traitors.

Now, Dany doesn’t hang people. She burned them alive.

But if Robb Stark had a dragon, he’d do the same damn thing.

Dany doing to the Tarlys is what Robb would have done to Umber, had Umber betrayed him.

Keep in mind also that the Tarlys had way more information on the Cersei situation than Robb had on the Joffrey/Ned situation.

It was common knowledge Cersei had had the Sept blown up, murdering Margaery and the rest of the Tyrells. Cersei didn’t even have a claim to the throne at all. By Westerosi succession laws, it should have gone to Jaime. Jaime was stripped of his King’s Guard duty. He’s male. He was Tommen’s heir. So not only is Cersei a murderer, she’s a usurper as well.

Some of that can be chocked up to D&D’s abysmal understanding of canon and idiot logic but, whatever. It’s still a thing.

And also keep in mind, no one knew Olenna had a hand in Joffrey’s murder. So Cersei killing Margaery wasn’t “justice” for Joffrey because she didn’t know about that yet. Cersei blowing up the Sept was straight murder.

And the Tarlys sided with a murderer over their liege lord.

They’re traitors.

Dany did nothing wrong in killing them.

#dany burning the tarlys #again #daenerys targaryen #daenerys defense squad #anti sansa stans #anti idiot logic

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apiratecalledav · 5 years

Note

Is there other stuff that makes you think hbo messed with gendrya?

Oh, man, I’m probably gonna be thought of as the Murray Bauman of the fandom…. But yeah, there’s actually quite a bit that makes me think that it’s possible. When season 8 first aired, I thought that maybe executive meddling shot them down for some reason, most logically to protect spinoff potential. They might have let the show “test the waters” but ultimately wanted them left ambiguous.

I thought it was… interesting… that Gendry and Arya had by far the gentlest, most amicable breakup in the entire series— and that it was over Gendry’s lordship that he straight up said wasn’t worth anything without Arya—when HBO UK made a cryptic tweet that made me wonder if someone high up was leery of the pairing/fan reaction. If they wanted the option for an Arya Stark spinoff someday, I could see why they wouldn’t want her to end in a relationship they thought might be poorly received.

I also thought that maybe since Gendrya went so far out of the show’s usual M.O. (to the point that it was one of the very few things about season 8 that I was wildly off about) that their thought process might have plausibly been something like, “Gendrya can’t be endgame? Well, fuck it. We’ll go all out and have them do pretty much everything else: Make out, spend the night together, save the world, say, ‘I love you,’ and get down on one knee to propose.”

I also thought that I was probably just a tinfoil-hat-wearing weirdo saying, “My OTP wasn’t definitively endgame! It must be a conspiracy.”

But I rewatched the whole season a little while ago and I noticed some things that I think are… interesting. Although, you should keep in mind that it was during two VERY long and VERY boring days at work where I had nothing to do.

I could just be shipper trash, seeing what I wanna see. Maybe not. I’m just saying that I’d believe it if something was up. From the way they portrayed Arya and Gendry, in general and especially in comparison to Jon/D-ny (I’ve anti tagged but if you don’t have blacklisting enabled, this is your fair warning), I could believe that the writers like the ship. And while Arya is certainly not the poster child for perfect mental health, there isn’t anything to suggest she would be toxic in a long term relationship. She isn’t selfish or cruel. I also don’t think that she hates herself the way that Sandor and Jaime did and that she believes she deserves to be “punished” or alone. She didn’t say anything to Gendry about not wanting to be a wife, just not a lady.

They’re consistently portrayed as a healthier/more favorable foil to Jon and D-ny:

In 8x01, D-ny swoops down on Winterfell and is cavalier as fuck about resources. She has no comment about food except that dragons eat “whatever they want.” The next scene, we see Gendry running to catch a chunk of dragonglass that was about to tumble out of the wagon. He tells everyone to be careful because they need every last bit of it. He then goes on to climb up the wagon, much like Arya did in the pilot episode. I think it’s even in the same spot. If not, it’s very similar.

Also 8x01, D-ny tells Jon, “keep your Queen warm” and while they are kissing, Jon keeps opening his eyes and freaking out because scary dragons are eyeballing him. And D-ny is pretty much like, “Don’t worry about it, it’s cool.” Even though she’s already made a few jokes about how if they decide to roast Jon then he’s shit outta luck and she threatened Sansa. Then the very next scene is Gendry and Sandor just before Arya finds them. Arya teases Gendry as well but she also defends him from Sandor, compliments him, jokes he should “keep close to that forge” if he’s cold and tells him not to call her Lady Stark. They laugh and banter and all awkwardness fades away and they’re both grinning like dorks. Arya actively wants Gendry to see them as equals; D-ny subconsciously wants Jon in his place.

Even as the dead are practically in their backyard, D-ny keeps obsessing about the throne. Meanwhile, Arya’s station doesn’t bother Gendry anymore because he knows it doesn’t matter. He also signed up to help Jon immediately without asking for anything in return.

Arya and Gendry each seek the other out in 8x02 but Jon spends a lot of it trying to avoid D-ny until the last moment

8x02 Arya and D-ny find out Gendry’s and Jon’s parentages. It makes no difference to Arya, she loved Gendry when he was a barmaid’s bastard and she loves him when he’s a king’s son. Jon’s bio father shatters D-ny’s whole world.

Most of Jon’s family (this includes Sam) distrust and fear D-ny. Jon and Sandor like Gendry and Sansa and Bran have no complaints at least.

Their ~love scenes~ have a few shots that mirror each other, too. But we see the buildup for Arya and Gendry, their conversation, their first kiss, undressing each other. We see Jon and D-ny and in the middle of things, during a montage explaining how they’re closely related and narrated by Jon’s little brother. Not exactly sexy. Then it cuts to Tyrion lurking nearby looking troubled and finally ends with an ominous shot of the Targ flagship in the dark and gloom. Meanwhile, Arya and Gendry are alone, not related, and are the sole focus of the scene. There’s not even music.

In 8x04, at the funeral, Gendry and Arya are initially a good distance apart. Then after they light the pyres, you get a shot of Arya with (an admittedly very blurry) Gendry visible over her shoulder. Meanwhile, Jon and D-ny stand together while lighting the fire and then they part.

Gendry’s “I love you” to Arya is enthusiastic and happy and D-ny’s to Jon is coming from a place of mourning at best and it’s straight up manipulative at worst. The words “I love you” are rare in this show. I can only remember Jorah saying it a couple of times, Littlefinger to Cat and Sansa, Joffrey pledging to wed Margaery, and Robb to Talisa. The only times it’s not sad or creepy are Robb and Gendry.

These two scenes are the most glaringly obvious. But to summarize, Arya tries to set Gendry “free” when his life changes in a direction she doesn’t want for herself and D-ny tries to put Jon into a corner and make sure his life CAN’T change into one that she doesn’t want.

So with that stuff in mind, I could buy that maybe they wanted Arya and Gendry to reunite in King’s Landing and try to save civilians together. Or maybe have Jon ask Gendry to take Arya as far away as he can before Jon goes to that throne room to do what he has to do. Hell, look at Arya’s final scene as is: She’s on a ship and then you see her Stark sigil on the sail against the sunlight… If Gendry was with her, that’d sure look like a happier version of D-ny and Jon’s scene from the end of season 7… While probably a bit too on the nose for GRRM’s books, I could see the show implying that Gendry and Arya are the second, more hopeful verse of the Song of Ice and Fire…

Other Season 8 Subtext-y things:

Marriage imagery; Arya under Gendry’s cloak. Bonus points for it being shown during these lines from Jenny’s song: “spun away all her sorrow and pain/and she never wanted to leave.” “She spun away and said to him, ‘no featherbed for me.’”

Pretty much all of Gendry’s scenes in season 8 are with Arya or he’s with Sandor, talking about her. The small handful of times he’s not with either of them, he’s with her siblings and other people connected to House Stark like Tormund and Davos and even Sam and Edd. After their “breakup” he virtually disappears. Pretty much the ENTIRE reason they brought him back was for Arya and to be tied strongly to House Stark.

Beric and Melissandre, who once wanted to sacrifice Gendry for “the greater good” and caused Arya to turn towards a darker path, sacrifice themselves to defeat the dead, not only saving Arya’s and Gendry’s lives but guiding Arya further into “light.” To the point where she literally ends the Long Night.

Gendry tells Arya that she’s beautiful and he loves her and gets down on one knee to ask her to marry him… Which is so wildly uncharacteristic for this show that I still can’t believe that it’s real. It’s by far the most traditional romantic moment in the entire series. I suppose it could just be fan service, but 8x02 would have sufficed on that front. Not to mention that “fan service” in this show has never been something so wholesome.

They could have done the proposal differently. They could have had Gendry say crap like, “Now we can settle down and live a boring, respectable life” or something else that would have been really unappealing to Arya. It actually would have been another connection to Robert/Lyanna, where Robert only loved his idea of Lyanna. But nope. They could have framed it as Gendry trying to do the honorable thing or “they’re gonna marry us off anyway, at least we like each other.” But nope.

Gendry could have been put off by Arya’s combat skills but he was turned on by it. She even used her “game of faces” voice on him and it didn’t send him running for the hills.

They also could have easily had Gendry be too “tame” for Arya but nope. Her face at this part just kills me.

They made a thing out of Gendry being “forever loyal” to D-ny after she legitimized him but he had jack shit to say about her at the Great Council and was all too happy to vote for King Bran, even after Arya had turned him down.

A follow up to that other post in regards to a Gendry-ish looking guy grabbing Arya and asking if she’s seen his wife, Alanna: Magaery’s cousin with the same sounding name gets a GRRM-esque weird spelling: Allana with two Ls and one N. As opposed to the more traditional spelling that looks more like Lyanna….

One of the surviving lords at the Great Council is specifically from the Storm Lands. He’s probably who has had Storm’s End for the last few years and maybe he doesn’t deserve to get kicked out by a boy who doesn’t have any idea how to be a lord and doesn’t even want to be a lord without Arya. He even has a name: Lord Une. The Dornish prince doesn’t have a first name but this guy does?

Also, Une is a very unusual name. It’s not from the books and it doesn’t really sound Medieval Europe-y, either. Maybe there’s an inside joke or something? That’s definitely not a name you just pull from the air.

Arya lights Beric’s funeral pyre but if Sandor didn’t have issues with fire, I think he probably would have done it as Beric’s last surviving friend. It kind of gives us the sense that Arya can do what Sandor can’t—which of course, she ultimately does when she decides to leave Cersei while Sandor, who has missed so much being hurt and angry, can only have peace/forgive himself is if he stops Gregor forever.

In the very next scene after the funeral, we see Gendry and Sandor talk about Arya. Sandor basically says that normal, living people have emotions and hormones and it’s not a bad thing. Sometime later, we see Sandor scare off a girl who makes a pass at him. The next scene is Gendry and Arya. Arya also ‘rejects’ her love interest but it’s in an infinitely more thoughtful way. We already know that it’s easier for Arya to be close to other people than it was for Sandor. Arya just has a little bit more to go until she’s completely ready for something serious.

Episodes 1 and 2 establish a pattern of “Sandor then Gendry.” It’s how they arrive at Winterfell. It’s how they reunite with Arya. It’s how Arya visits them towards the end of 8x02. Sooo again, I could see at one point the intention was for them to reunite in King’s Landing. Possibly during that bit where it keeps cutting back and forth between Sandor and Arya; “hateful” Gregor grabs Sandor up to throw him around and “loving” Gendry lifts Arya to save her from getting trampled. Nora, the name of the kind stranger who does help Arya, is essentially the “female equivalent” of Gendry’s name.

According to the leaked outline of season 7, Gendry was originally supposed to be rescued by Benjen beyond the wall. In season 8, he has scenes with Jon, Sansa, and Bran, and even Edmure and Robin. ALMOST LIKE THEY WANTED HIM TO MEET *ALL* OF ARYA’S FAMILY. I’m pretty sure only Tyrion has met more Starks and Tullys than Gendry.

The “Ice battle” was at Arya’s childhood home and the “Fire battle” was at Gendry’s. And yeah, I think it’s pretty damn weird that a capable, uninjured soldier who has knowledge of King’s Landing isn’t there.

They gave them a reference to The Princess Bride: “As you wish.” Comparing them to a beloved couple from a modern classic is a good sign. Comparing them to most likely a childhood favorite? Even better. Comparing them to a couple where their other famous line is “Death cannot stop true love. All it can do is delay it for a little while.” And Arya and Gendry are still alive. Actually, it might be a coincidence but they do have a SHIT-TON in common with The Princess Bride. GRRM is a fan, too, so maybe it was discussed at some point. It’s certainly uncanny if it wasn’t at least partially intentional. But that’s a different post.

Sandor knows about Gendry and Arya and he doesn’t rip Gendry’s head off. Gendry basically got a blessing from Arya’s last legal guardian.

Their outfits reflect each other’s houses, Gendry’s clothes having some very Stark direwolf-like scratch marks and Arya’s scabbard is yellow and black aka Baratheon colors.

I haven’t listened to it yet, but apparently in the leaked audio commentary for 8x06, they talked about how Joe wanted Arya to notice how hot Gendry looked.

Other stuff that makes me think that the writers like Gendrya:

They gave them a lot of time and focus. Even in season 8 where they had very limited time. And objectively speaking, that time probably should have been spent with Arya and her siblings.

They had Arya befriend Gendry earlier and easier than she does in the books.

In behind the episode of 8x02, Benioff talked about how you choose to spend your last night on earth says a lot about you. The very first example he gives is Arya wanting to be with Gendry.

They are always depicted positively: They trust each other; they respect each other; they make each other laugh; they protect each other. Even during their “breakups” in season 3 and 8; they are honest and accepting of each other’s decisions. These two are young and inexperienced but they manage to be more mature and healthier than 95% of the other couples. Their relationship also doesn’t doom them the way that Robb and Talisa’s did.

They changed stuff from the books to make it– not more romantic per se given Arya’s age– but certainly shipping fuel that fit more into romantic tropes: How they meet, how Gendry discovers that she’s a girl, how Arya blatantly checks him out when he’s shirtless. Their long one-on-one and emotional “goodbye” scene where Arya says, “I can be your family.”

They changed/added lines to foreshadow “My Featherbed,” aka where Gendry is legitimized but gives it up for Arya: “I have a son, you have a daughter. We’ll join our houses” but leaving out how Robert specified Joffrey and Sansa. Changing “you’ll marry a king” and “no, that’s Sansa” to “you’ll marry a high lord” and “no, that’s not me.” Davos telling Gendry how he became a lord to help his son and it actually got Mathos killed in battle.

The main bullet points of season 8 were largely what I was expecting and I was at least in the ballpark about a lot of the details. Like did I predict King Bran? No, but I knew he belonged in the south because he named his direwolf Summer. I knew the king or queen would be a dark horse and I was fairly certain Tyrion would be Hand. The few things I didn’t anticipate still seemed to validate the main themes and messages I thought that GRRM was going for. Like King Bran. Now I can’t believe I didn’t see it. Who better to “end the game of thrones” than someone who doesn’t want to play and also can’t be plotted against?

Gendrya is the one major thing that tripped me up. Seriously. I would have bet my fucking car that if Gendry didn’t die, he’d walk away from a lordship and be with Arya on her ship, even if the nature of their relationship was ambiguous.

So I could believe that they wanted or at least expected Gendrya to be endgame since season 1 and someone told them no. It could have been GRRM but I must admit that I have a difficult time believing that.

I guess I could see GRRM having the point of their relationship be that Arya is upfront and honest about what she wants and Gendry respects her decision and doesn’t turn into a bitter/mopey drunk. Or that Gendry dies and Arya doesn’t wallow in it forever… But there’s so much that makes me think that Gendry is meant to be the “sweet” part of Arya’s bittersweet ending, and at least be her True Companion. Not to mention they’re still too young to really have a relationship in the books. Well, at least Arya is. And those particular parallels to Robert and Lyanna fall pretty flat in my opinion if they’re not romantically involved. I mean, come ON. How the hell could it NOT end with the possibility of Lyanna’s niece/ Jon’s sister and Robert’s son/D-ny+Rags cousin???

Possible HBO Shenanigans:

I thought it was kinda funny that HBO UK–not Game of Thrones but an official HBO account– made a tweet shortly before 8x02 aired implying that Arya is eighteen… when she’s more likely sixteen (lots of reasons, not to mention that Maisie has even said that Arya is sixteen.) And sixteen is the age of consent in the UK anyway. As far as I know, that was the only public attempt by HBO to quell controversy in an already hugely controversial season. Like, after The Bells, I don’t think anyone at HBO tweeted about “Ideally, good rulers don’t commit 2.5 times the amount of war crimes as the Night King.” So I do have to wonder if there’s a reason that they’re particularly invested and protective about Arya’s reception…

There was a huge shitstorm when Tommen and Margaery got married and pretty much most of that stuff was off screen. Sure, Arya’s a bit older and Maisie was in her 20s while Dean-Charles was still in his teens… but people do tend to get much more outraged when it’s a girl with an older guy than vice versa.

There was also a big shakeup when AT&T acquired HBO and they got a new CEO early in 2019, a couple of months before season 8 aired. The former CEO seemed to have been championing Bloodmoon, that prequel that got canceled recently. He might have been pulling more for a potential Arya show back when the season was still being written… the new people at AT&T also seemed extremely upset over what the budgets for GoT and Big Little Lies did for their bottom line.

While HBO has stated emphatically that there are no current plans for an Arya spinoff, they were sure to tack on a “right now, a sequel […] doesn’t make sense for us.” I do believe that this is something they want to have in their back pocket. There’s a lot of interest in the idea and if House of the Dragon does well, I won’t be shocked if five+ years down the line we get at least a movie or a limited series about Arya. It’s by far the easiest, since her character can be isolated from everyone else and there are tons of cool places to explore. Hell, if they were really desperate, they wouldn’t even need Maisie Williams to come back. They could just recast and say she’s wearing someone else’s face to hide from mercenaries or something.

GRRM gave an interview talking about how certain characters who have “a high Q rating” (popular) get pushed into more screen time. Bronn is almost certainly one of those characters. He’s always been a self-serving asshole, but the things that made him feel more like an affable rascal—his funny lines, his genuine and open fondness for Podrick—are all but gone in season 8. Not to mention that there’s the implied possibility he’s dying from some “pox.” In the outline for season 7, he’s much closer to “Season 8 Bronn.” Like, he was the one who was originally going to ask Jaime about Widow’s Wail and call Joffrey a “See-You-Next-Tuesday.” When Olenna said it, it was pretty funny. But coming from Bronn, it was a real dick move. I could believe that their “treatment” of Bronn in season 8 was a bit of a middle finger to him. The same way I could perceive Gendrya’s portrayal as being a “fuck you” if they weren’t allowed to actually be endgame.

TL;DR: Gendry and Arya are one of the very few healthy couples in the entire series, and it could be argued that they even get “special” treatment. Both of them lived and while Arya certainly has been traumatized, she is not a walking dumpster fire who wouldn’t be good for him. It would have been only too easy for them to be portrayed as incompatible or worse but they weren’t. Their breakup is over a virtual nonissue. So it’s not out of the range possibility that they were a victim of executive meddling.

And please spare me any “bUt D&D aRe ToO STuPId tO dO tHis.” I’m not campaigning for them to win Pulitzers any time soon, but the notion that they’re complete nitwits is just silly. They both have M.F.A.s from very good schools and their scripts/outlines that I’ve read have a lot of really clever and really well-thought-out references, ranging from history to poetry to literature to even The Rolling Stones.

I’m not saying that they intentionally did all this stuff but they certainly could have if they wanted to.

#gendrya #gendrya positivity #arya x gendry #gendry #arya stark #anti jonerys #anti daenerys #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire

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ansheofthevalley · 6 years

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I’m coming for the Salt Throne™, so watch out.

I’m sorry but I’m afraid I must interrupt my joyous broadcast of Stark goodness brought by the last teaser because I have encountered this on the sansa tag.

At first I wasn’t going to engage, because I was really fucking happy about the teaser. But then I thought, you know what, fuck it, some people need to know some facts and I’m gonna give it to them. Also, I stayed up till 4 am writing this shit but tumblr wouldn’t let me queue it, so now I’m writing it all over again. Second also, this person has been commenting on my posts that I clearly tagged “Sansa Stark” and “anti targ restoration”, so they’re stalking the tags, and since they’re doing that, there’s a high chance they’ll read this.

So let’s start, shall we?

First things first

Imagine being this pressed. At this point, you’re just grasping at straws, my friend.

I’m going to go point by point, since this person took the time to do the same about an anti sansa stark post but posted it on the sansa stark stark nonetheless

Point number 1: comparison with Jaime

I’ll give you that this parallel works, given that both characters start the series at a very good point: Jaime is a Kingsguard and Sansa has just gotten betrothed to the Crown Prince. But let’s examine their journey since then. Jaime ends up season one as a war prisoner of Robb Stark, the Young Wolf and King in the North after Robb won in battle, while Sansa ends up being a political hostage in King’s Landing after watching her father die. It doesn’t get any better for any of them, Jaime, in a secret exchange with Cat, promises to deliver Sansa and Arya, so then it begins his adventures with Brienne in the Riverlands, while Sansa is humiliated and assaulted in front of court. Then, while he got out of the Starks cells and thinking he could make his way to King’s Landing all on his own, Jaime loses his right hand and that’s a low point for him, actually, that’s his lowest point. Meanwhile, Sansa finds confort in the arrival of the Tyrells and her betrothal to Joffrey is put aside in favor of Margeary and there are even hints of a new betrothal between her and Loras, it’s starting to look good for Sansa, until Tywin puts a halt to those plans and brokers the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa: now she’s married to the enemy, the enemy that would ultimately kill his brother and mother. If it were possible, it gets worse for both of them: just as he arrives to King’s Landing, Jaime bears witness to the murder of his son on his wedding day, something Cersei was quick to blame Sansa for. So now, Sansa is a presumed kingslayer and a fugitive. Jaime, now changed by his experiences, tasks Brienne with finding both Stark girls, to keep his promise to Catelyn Stark. Season one Jaime wouldn’t have done that, just saying. Sansa escapes to the Vale under the “protection” of Littlefinger. There she realizes the want for home, for Winterfell, the place she wanted to leave as a teenager. Now she realizes the value of home. Both have to fulfull the role of head of the family: Jaime when Tywin is murdered by Tyrion and Sansa after Robb’s death. They are both tasked with the reconstruction of their houses: Jaime in a military way, Sansa in a political way. As Tommen ascends to the Throne, Jaime has to demonstrate that the Lannisters still are a force to be reckon with, even without Tywin. Sansa comes back to Winterfell to marry Ramsay, to reconnect with the North and its people and to find a way to avenge her family. By the end of season six, they both fully embraced their roots: Jaime is a Lannister and Sansa is a Stark. And we see that in season seven. Jaime is loyal to his House and Cersei till the end of the season and Sansa will defend the best interests of her people. It took them a lot to get where they are now, but that’s what happens with characters like them. They are perceived as perfect by everyone around them, but they have their insecurities and they go through a number of trials and tribulations before they evolve and become better than they were.

Point number two: Cersei vs. Sansa. Two (very) different people

Cersei is very much her father’s daughter, capable of lying and manipulation. This is pointed out throughout the seasons, by various characters, and is the biggest compliment you could pay Cersei. She always believed to be the best bet to take House Lannister to new heights, but always overlooked by her father, in favor of her brothers.

Now, the scroll Sansa was forced to write. I’m going to repeat that. Sansa was forced to write that scroll to his brother. She was forced to do it by Cersei because she truly believed it would save her father’s life. You also wildly misinterpreted Maester Luwin’s response (what a shocker):

Robb: Treason? Sansa wrote this? Maester Luwin: It is your sister’s hand, but the Queen’s words

It’s after this exchange that Robb decides to call his banners and declares himself to be in open rebellion to the Crown, until they release his father and sisters.

But let’s go back to Luwin’s line for a bit. You’d know, especially if you read A Game of Thrones, that Sansa doubted in this moment. She had doubts about writing that letter. But she did it anyway. Why? Because she thought Cersei was good and someone worthy of trust. She really thought she was doing the best she could in saving her father’s life. Like worst case scenario, he’d be sent to the Wall, but he’d be alive. Also, let’s not forget she was thirteen years old.

Point number three: Sansa and her love of stories and the disregard for femininity

Sansa is an idealist. She loves tales of knightly valor and romance, the story of Jonquil and Florian the Fool being her favorite. She appreciates and favors all that is femenine: she sings, she draws, she embroiders, she plays intruments. She’s a lady through and through. And there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the way she was brought up. Being the Warden of the North’s eldest daughter, both of her parents knew she would have to marry someone important, not some minor lord. And with those prospects, she would be educated to be a proper lady.

I won’t get into Arya’s line since this post is getting long enough, but it shows how the show itself views women with femenine traits as inferior to women with more masculine traits. After all, we all know the GA, at that point prefered the likes of Arya and D@ny to the likes of Sansa and Catelyn.

When Sansa says she’s a stupid girl with stupid dreams who never learns, she’s chastising herself. She came to the capital a girl full of dreams and hopes, only to find people that would lie, use and abuse her, while she had to remain the perfect little lady if she didn’t want another beating. She’s chastising herself for having dreams, something every thirteen-year-old should have, but in her case, she’s been stripped from them. And she blames herself for that, when in reality, it isn’t her fault. It’s the fault of the adults that use her as a pawn to their games as she were a thing.

So no, Sansa isn’t stupid and she certainly isn’t like most girls. She learned to navigate the turbid waters of court in order to stay alive. She never gave up hope or sacrificed her kindness.

1 extra point for trying, tho

Point number four: The moon door and Lysa Arryn

Tyrion’s experience with the Moon Door was under a sham trial for the attempted hit on Bran, which means it was public. We know from season seven that it was Littlefinger who orchestrated the assesination, in hopes to frame the Lannisters and thus creating more friction between the two houses and drive away any suspicion anyone could have that Lysa and Baelish killed Jon Arryn.

Sansa’s experience with the Moon Door was private, it was just her Lysa, and then Littlefinger. Lysa was growing paranoid of Sansa, she accused her of sleeping with Littlefinger (in which she wasn’t entirely wrong: Littlefinger was grooming Sansa and kissing her without her consent). Let’s not forget that Lysa has been in love with him since he was fostered at Riverrun. At this point, Littlefinger had married Lysa; she thought it was out of love, but he did it to secure power in the Vale. Ultimately Littlefinger interferes, getting Lysa away from Sansa, and then he threw his wife through the Moon Door proclaiming he only loved one: her sister.

So again, two very different situations. But I’ll give you points for trying hard.

Point number five: Cersei vs. Sansa part deux. Sansa and Cersei are not parallels, they are foils

It doesn’t take a genius to understand that those two lines are there to illustrate how different they are. Sansa can’t sleep, worried and tormented by the loved ones she cannot safe. There’s not a single thing in her manner or face that shows any trace of vengance, just sadness and grief. The only time we get to see Sansa get revenge is when she killed Ramsay. That was personal. She endured months and months of abuse at the hands of that monster. He killed her little brother. His family took part in the Red Wedding, killing many on the Stark men and bannermen, his brother, his sister-in-law and their unborn child and her mother. He was hers to kill. It was in name of all of those he hurt and killed. Cersei, on the other hand, is completely consumed by vengance. Her line demonstrates that she won’t rest until she had killed everyone that wronged her and her family. She’s been asking for Sansa ever since she fled King’s Landing, she tried to hunt down her own brother (not that she had much love for him, but still), she blew up a whole part of the city just to get rid of her political enemies. She drank wine and smirked while that happened. She killed a young woman in front of her mother, and had her watch as her daughter died. She had the septa from the walk of shame tortured and abused by the Mountain repeatedly. There’s a level of darkness in her actions, a level of monstrosity that rival that of her son’s.

Again, extra points for trying reaaally hard

Point number six: Cersei vs. Sansa part tres (since you insist on drawing parallels between the two when actually they’re foils, but whatever). The matches that never came to happen: Cersei & Rhaegar / Sansa & Joffrey

When Tywin was Aerys’ Hand, he promised Cersei that one day, she would marry Rhaegar and be Queen. We know from the flashback scene with young Cersei and Maggy the Frog, that she wanted to be Queen. She wanted the power the crown brought, something she undoubtedly learned from her father. Unlike Cersei, Sansa wanted to be Queen, yes, but it was all a childhood dream. It was her love for songs and stories that led her to believe that fair Queens ruled the Kingdoms and were loved by the people. She never wanted power, she never even grasped at the real implications of wearing a crown after her father died. She learnt the hard way that Queens weren’t fair and loved, that they could be fearsome and cunning. There’s actually someone more fitting for the parallel you’re trying to draw between Cersei and Sansa:

Both Cersei and Margaery want to be Queen for the power the Crown brings: it’s a way to give power to their House, it’s a way they can influence and shape the country in the way they want (though Margaery was more graceful and a better Queen that Cersei could ever be).

Since this got a little long, I’ll leave you with this book quote that finishes to paint Cersei and Sansa as foils:

Cersei: “The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.” Sansa: “I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.”

And yes, Sansa is a Direwolf that grew up between Lions. But that doesn’t mean she grew up to become one. She grew up and survived them. I’ll leave another quote from ACOK, after Sansa is humiliated at the hands of Joffrey and his Kingsguards:

Sansa: “I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey.” Tyrion: “No doubt. As loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves.” Sansa: “Lions, she whispered without thinking.”

#damn I had to let some things out #this is what happens when I don't go to my box training #I get salty af #I opened the gates of hell #and now I'm ready #come at me #i s2g i'm so fucking tired #nobody disrespects Sansa Stark on my watch #nuh uh #Sansa Stark #sansa stark defense squad #anti daenerys stans #anti jonerys stans #anti aegony stans #fandom wank #got discourse #got

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sxpiosexualx · 7 years

Text

GoT Preferences

I was tagged by @tiny-little-bird tq for the tag <3

Do you watch the episodes when they air?

Unfortunately they air at 9AM for me, so I catch them online once I have the time. I woke up to watch the finale last season live though just so I could live tweet my reaction along with everyone else!

How often do you rewatch it?

I was on my second rewatch but I sort of forgot where I stopped so I’m definitely going to have to rewatch it one last time before S8. But there are certain episodes I’ve rewatched like four times, namely the final two of Season 6 because I was between flights a lot that year and they had those two showing. I love love love those episodes.

Do you rewatch the previous episode before the next one airs?

Nope! Not unless I plan to really absorb what happened for meta purposes.

One character that everyone seems to like that you don’t care much for:

Tyrion Lannister, I’ve dated someone like him and it put a sour taste in my mouth. Since I watched before I read, I admired him as much as anybody but after meeting him in the books I’ve since been disillusioned. Daenerys too, for obvious reasons that I’m sure I’ve made clear.

Your 3 favorite pairings:

Jonsa

Gendrya - I know people think they’re just a cute shippy pair, I did too but there’s more substance there than people give credit for.

Robb x Sansa - this is crack but I am a sucker for pre-asoiaf works on this pairing. Sansa grew up believing in knights and gallant men of valour because she had Ned and Robb to look to and it k i l l s me. There’s not much platonic works out there on this pairing but I don’t mind either way. Anything to fuel my Robb x Sansa depression hours are great lol. We love crack.

also Ned x Cat because it’s practically the only healthy ship we’ve seen on screen.

Favorite scene:

A tie between the Jon x Sansa reunion glomp, Sansa riding in with the KoTV when all hope was lost, and the forehead kiss. BUT, I very much love the entire wildfire sequence during Cersei’s prosecution, the music and cinematography is amazing! Sam seeing the Citadel library with Maester playing in the background was stunning too. Basically, the final two episodes of season 6 were packed with well-shot scenes, no thanks to Miguel Sapochnik. (I really couldn’t choose just one huh)

One character you wish got more appreciation:

Sansa Stark. I don’t blame people, when she’s first introduced to us there’s this bias because we’re seeing her through Arya’s eyes and we all know how Arya views her. But throughout the series I’ve had enough of people complaining that she’s done nothing, and yet come season 6 and 7 once she’s really standing up for herself and making decisions she thinks are right - people call her bratty and “out for herself” like can you give her a break?

Also as much as I adore her on the show, and agree that had she been put through the Ramsay plot, it’s only natural she come to this progression: I very much wish people would have a read of her POV chapters. She’s not some “cold” power hungry bitch, she’s never been and never will be. Sansa’s a sweet young girl that got caught up in everything and yet despite it all, she’s still going. I admire her a lot and hope she survives and proves important to the endgame so all the disgusting victim blaming misogynistic haters can suck it once and for all.

Fanfic or nah?

I fuck with that. I’m still waiting on my AO3 account tho wyd AO3 lemme in I’m finna spread love to all the fanfic writers.

Favorite quote:

lol one quote? here are a few:

“Power resides where men believe it resides… It’s a trick, a shadow on the wall.” - Varys.

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.” - Jojen Reed.

”We look up at the same stars and see such different things.” - Jon Snow.

“Their dreams were full of songs and stories, the way hers had been before Joffrey cut her father’s head off. Sansa pitied them. Sansa envied them.” - Sansa Stark.

”When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” - Tyrion Lannister.

“Words are like arrows, Arianne. Once loosed, you cannot call them back.” - Doran Martell.

Do you avoid spoilers?

Depends. If it’s brought to the Jonsa community for speculation then I consider giving it a look, otherwise I stay clear of YouTube suggestions because they’re always so... final? It’s like “Jon Snow’s death CONFIRMED,” or “BLACK WEDDING S8 CONFIRMED,” like shut up lol. Also the reddit script leaks... I don’t know? Sometimes they just seem completely like fanfiction, and not the good kind.

Favorite house words:

“Growing Strong.” - House Tyrell. It’s flowery, easy to be overlooked and underestimated and yet even roses have their thorns. Scheming, but with grace. Not allowing themselves to appear threatening so that they may make friends, and yet all together, the very words of “Growing Strong” alludes to a growing threat.

One character you’d bring back from the dead:

Robb Stark, definitely. He’s a powerful military man, he showed promise as a ruler and he’s not a total dolt. I remember reading somewhere that George had to kill him off because he wouldn’t have fit into the natural progression of the story, he’s made him too invincible. And look how many factors had to come to play to bring the Young Wolf down. He’d be a valuable asset, though that would mean sacrificing Jonsa. But I love him so <3

One character you’d kill, or kill sooner than they were killed:

Daenerys Targaryen, but even I understand she has a part to play in all of this as they all do so there’s really no point in this. It’d only disrupt the plot and I wouldn’t have it any other way(than what GRRM intended, not D&D).

Direwolves or dragons?

Direwolves, they’re loyal. Dragons can’t be tamed and are a threat.

Which was more satisfying: Ramsay dying or Joffrey dying?

Ramsay. They gave a satisfying wrap up by Sansa’s hands. Each punch Jon gave him felt so good too.

Wildlings or the dothraki?

Wildlings, but only because they follow no king and I can respect that. Their way of life, seeing each individual as a free man - I fuck with that.

Favorite Lannister?

Jaime, definitely. I quite like his chapters. He’s never been the quickest and I truly hate whenever that’s been used to snub him. I’ve heard it been said he can be considered as Jon’s foil, and I agree(actually I’d go as far as to compare him to Sansa’s romanticised ideas of the world, though Jon is the better fit in this case). They both started out naive, and Jaime never struck me as innately cruel. For instance, he thought he was being honoured by King Aerys with a white cloak only to later find out that it was to snub his father and rip him of his heir. He believed Cersei truly loved him, only to realise that’s not the case(Cersei’s infatuation with him is a tale of Narcisus falling in love with his own reflection, or rather what Cersei wishes she was). He saved the city, only for people to dub him “Kingslayer.” His tale thus far has been tragic, and out of all the three Lannister siblings, I think he’s most worthy of a redemption arc especially considering how Tyrion is headed to a darker path and Cersei is, well, Cersei. He’s quite the anti-hero.

To be completely honest I’m not sure I read his arc as a “redemption story” either, it’s more like finally getting a POV for us to better understand how he came to be so jaded.

And me, that boy I was... when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

- Jaime, ASOS.

His chapters to me, serve to humanise him, and I’ve decided I like Jaime Lannister.

Favorite stark?

Sansa, obviously, but I admired Robb and will always weep at how we lost him too soon, a boy who showed so much promise. Also, Bran is my baby boy and I love him dearly.

Would you rather be able to be resurrected anytime, but gain scars and all like Beric, or become a faceless man?

If I had to choose, I suppose resurrection though I don’t think I’d be fond of it at all. I don’t fuck with the faceless men because I don’t fuck with this idea of living life in servitude. I suppose we all do, but I’d hate for it to be that direct.

Would you rather have the rebellion tv show or the conquest tv show?

You’re asking me to choose between seeing the younger versions of Ned’s generation on screen vs. more Targaryen propaganda? Robert’s rebellion, anytime.

I tag @nutellaninja0001 @lilbreck @starkkingss @vivilove-jonsa @occupyvenus @lostlittlesatellites @riahchan @asilentfrenzy @hbicstark @twilight-sparx @qinaliel @fedonciadale @ladywolfmd @myrish-lace-love @viking-hel @trinuviel @itwasmycroftbbc @jonsasnow @thatfictionalgal @eximperial @thewindsofwolves @thecrowandthelittlebird @visenyastargaryen

and anyone that wants a go, really! Tell me I’ve tagged you either way because I’d love reading just about anyone’s preferences haha x

#jonsa #gendrya #jaime lannister #anti-daenerys #if this pops up in a tag and u have a problem with it then mate idk what to tell u but u shouldve blocked the tags u hate

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viking-hel · 7 years

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GoT Preferences

I was tagged by @sxpiosexualx. First time I’ve ever been tagged! <3

Do you watch the episodes when they air?

Well, first I did not get into GOT right away because I didn’t have the channel. I binged Season 1-3, watched Season 4 when it came out on DVD, then since then I have watched them when they air. For me in the UK, that’s nine pm on a Monday

How often do you rewatch it?

Not very often actually. I may be taken by the urge to go from the beginning by August this year. I rewatch seasons with my mum so she can remember what happened last time before the next season starts.

Do you rewatch the previous episode before the next one airs?

No, I remember what happens in more or less every episode. I can do that really well with most shows I watch for some reason. Have nothing better to do clearly.

One character that everyone seems to like that you don’t care much for:

Hahaha, seeing as my top tag is anti-d//nerys, I think it’s clear! But, I am not the biggest fan of Tyrion. He’s cool and all, show!Tyrion is very different from book!Tyrion. I did not like Catelyn much, but that changed. Ygritte wasn’t a favourite either.

Your 3 favourite pairings:

Oh wow, let me think actually. Well, I was not originally Jonsa. I am first and foremost anti-d//ny, but they’re in there. Jaime/Brienne and Tormund/Brienne - HE MAKES ME LAUGH TORMUND HAD BETTER LIVE OKAY??!! - are joint second maybe. My third pair…books it’s Ashara/Ned. TV, it’s Gendry x Arya.

BUT I have two crack-pairings! Cersei x Oberyn, all before marrying Robert! And Sansa x Jaime - I found a really good fic on FAnfiction(.)net.

Favourite scene:

Hands down, has to be when Jon unsheathes his sword with the oncoming galloping horses in Battle of the Bastards. To be honest, that entire battle is my favourite scene.

One character you wish got more appreciation:

Sansa for obvious reasons. I was rather ambivalent for a while, annoyed in some regard, kinda how I was with S1 D//ny, felt bad for her situation, but didn’t feel much else.

Now this isn’t appreciation, I just wish the show did it differently, but the Sand Snakes and Ellaria. I hate what the Dornish arc became because IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LIKE THAT.

Fanfic or nah?

I love reading it. I write it, but for myself. I don’t think I’m quite good enough to write well enough.

Favourite quote:

- “ Jaime smiled knowingly. Men will read all sorts of things into a knowing smile if you let them “ - Jaime, ASOS

- “ Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it “ - Tyrion, GOT

Do you avoid spoilers?

I try to. Because GOT airs a day later here in the UK, I’d avoid Facebook and Tumblr in order to not see anything. This is the first time where I have looked at leaks too.

Favourite house words:

For some reason, I love House Arryn’s words, “As High as Honour”. Not sure why, it just sounds so elegant and honour is important even today, how you conduct yourself, how you speak to others etc.

One character you’d bring back from the dead:

Oberyn. He’s smart, witty and deadly. He challenged a lot of Westerosi social beliefs. He was an interesting man that met a very sudden end and I am sad he had to.

One character you’d kill, or kill sooner than they were killed:

Oooh, none really? D//ny plays a part. I don’t need her offed yet.

Which was more satisfying; Ramsay dying of Joffrey dying?

Ramsay. I had the most sadistic grin on my face when his dogs ate him and realised GOT has perhaps really desensitised me. But, he got what he deserves.

Wildings or Dothraki?

Both. Though I’m not much for Dothraki destroying people’s homes, livelihoods and enslaving them. But they ride horses awesomely as we saw. Karsi of the Wildlings though….love.

Favourite Lannister?

Jaime. He is more than he appears. Has a very warped sense of honour which we see from the very first episode of S1. He was wrong to push Bran from the tower, but I get why he did it. I understand, not condone. Jaime has progressed and developed; he has been given that chance to really. And it has been an incredible change to read/see.

Favourite Stark:

Much like he is to Sansa, Jon is a Stark to me. Though they were the family I rooted for from the beginning as a unit. So all of them in truth.

Would you rather be able to be resurrected anytime, but gains scars and all like Beric, or become a Faceless man?

Hard. I wouldn’t really want to come back alive, but Faceless man if I had to choose.

Would you rather have the rebellion tv show or the conquest tv show?

Rebellion, because it was not built on a lie. Conquest would just piss me off because Aegon conquered because he freakin’ felt like it. Nuff said.

I tag @jonsasnow, @thelawyerthatwaspromised, @sophmounty @alczysz17 @athimbleful @asilentfrenzy

#jonsa #anti-daenerys #got question time

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occupyvenus · 7 years

Note

Great post - "about why Jonsa of all ships is so bitterly thought about" and I think your really nailed a lot of the key factors, especially how the San/San people like Sansa, are more likely book readers and can accept the Jonsa ship maturely. There is definitely a pathological hatred of Sansa that drives the fanaticism against her being with Jon. You really captured a lot of the thinking (if you can call it thinking!) on a tv forum I've been following for about a year. People literally (1/2)

will dream up any reason to keep Sansa away from Jon. There is essentially a subculture that allows the Jon/Ary@ ship and the Jon/D@ny ship to coexist. Even kind of support each other. Dany might die and then Arya and Jon will raise the Targcest baby together. Pretty crazy stuff. Anyway thanks for writing so clearly on this topic. (2/2)

First of all … that was supposed to say FOUGHT ABOUT!!! NOT THOUGHT ABOUT!!! WHY JONSA OF ALL SHIPS IS SO BITTERLY FOUGHT ABOUT!!!

I lower my head in shame, while contemplating my bad habit of never proof-reading the stuff I write. But as the previous anon so correctly pointed out my spelling isn’t exactly top-notch. Most of the time it’s honestly p r e t t y bad. If words sound somewhat similar, by stupid brain assumes they’re interchangeable. Seven hells.

Though I think this - Sansa being regarded as a side character or at best, the least important main character - also explains why Jonsa isn’t seen as a possibility by the general fandom, not just the radical antis. People look at the infamous original outline, believing that Sansa never gained any real importance as a character since then, like she was just allowed to tag along with the “real” key five (Arya, Bran, Dany, Jon and Tyrion). She was supposed to marry Joffrey and die at some point and the crazy folks think she’ll not even survive but also get THE MALE LOVE-INTEREST? I suppose, to people who don’t realize (or don’t want to admit) that Sansa was “upgraded” to key-status (GRRM always includes her when talking about the most important characters nowadays), any serious theory that claims she could be Jon’s grand love interest sounds as implausible as if it was … idk, Arianne or Brienne or whoever. Those two are great and all, but Jon Snow is on an entirely different level when it comes to significance to the narrative. Why would he of all people end up with some puny side-character? Shouldn’t that “honor” go to one of the real heroines? Makes sense. It’s not just the people who actively hate on Sansa, but also those who simply don’t care much about her character.

I guess you call this hypothesis “Why Jonsa of all ships is so bitterly FOUGHT about and/or not taken seriously”.

I’m honestly not an expert on what’s going on between the other camps (ie the general attitude between J0nry and J0nerys shippers), but according to my experience these two subgroups (together with the Sansa/P€tyr shippers) make up the majority of devoted jonsa-haters and put forth the most obsessed ones as well. If I remember correctly, a few years back before canon!jonsa gained so much momentum those two groups weren’t getting along nicely either. There was a lot of bickering about who’s more important (Ary@ is grrm’s fav!, D@ny has dragons and all, so shut your piehole!), mixed up with some shipping wank and as far as I can tell (as I said, I have a very limited perspective on this. I don’t really interact with either group), that has gotten a bit better since Sansa entered the stage as another key female character. What do people say? The enemy of my enemy …

I don’t think that shipping is super important to asoiaf, I care about the story first and was pretty indifferent to it before I jumped on board the Jonsa ship, but I do think that we’ll get one “main” romance between two “main” characters. It would simply make sense to me, Grrm was never shy about including romantic love in his works, even if it was never the main focus. Now, this will more likely than not end in tragedy, but since asoiaf can be read as a coming of age story for at least 5 of the key six, and settling down with a spouse and a couple of kids is one common way to end such a story, maybe that will belong to the “sweet” part of the bittersweet ending. Idk, anything’s possible. (Btw, I don’t count Sansa and Tyrion’s marriage as a “romance” for obvious reasons.) If you don’t subscribe to the idiotic assumption that Jon and D@ny are the “real” real main characters and assume that all six are of equal importance … why is shipping either of them (other than the biological siblings, perhaps, that would be a bit weird even by grrm standards), less legit than the other? (Of course, if you do subscribe to this assumption, there probably only exists one “legitimate” pairing in your opinion. In which case, no argument about this could ever be solved until finding a common denominator to this question of principle, so why even bother…)

If one of the male characters can be seen as the “romantic lead” it would be Jon (grrm even sorta confirmed this in his “fake” -lol- medusa interview), simply because Bran is just a kid and Tyrion, well some people will accuse me of ableism, but I don’t get any “romantic lead” vibes from him. Not because he’s a dwarf, because he’s the only “grownup” of the key six. So everyone can keep any accusations to themselves. I also don’t think that Grrm will stride away from hetero-love, to be honest. HE COULD. But I don’t think he will. That leaves us with the three possibilities mentioned above: Jon and one of the leading ladies. I think it’s rather inevitable that that will happen.

But when it comes to the ladies … things simply aren’t as clear. They’re all similar of age, neither of them is closely related to Jon (at least, not THAT closely related), they could all work. I obviously don’t like J0nerys, but I can totally understand why so many people believe in it. I would maybe even ship J0nrya a bit, if it wasn’t almost impossible to find shippers who don’t hate on Sansa/Jonsa. And I would never call either of those groups “delusional” because it basically comes down to personal preference and a couple of other factors, most notably how you judge the future projective of these three characters.

I also hate the assumption that J0nerys is the only pairing with solid foreshadowing in the books. I read the books a few times, all j0nerys meta I could find, plenty of J0nrya ones and, well, I don’t have to talk about all the jonsa-metas I’ve consumed xD. Trying to remain as unbiased as possible, there’s an almost equal amount of foreshadowing for all of them. I simply came to the conclusion that Sansa is the most likely candidate because a) I’m pretty sure D@ny will go dark and there will be a targbowl of sorts. She could just as easily be a love interest, as she could be an adversary. b) The age-gap between Ary@ and Jon is a bit too big for my liking. Especially at their current canon age. Also I love them siblings so much. And c) Sansa’s upgrade and the drastic change in her narrative must have a reason. Martin liking the idea of tormented pseudo-incest, and the reveal of Jon’s parentage making such a relationship “proper” but deciding to emphasize the brotherly bond between Jon and Ary@ and “using” Sansa’s character as the love interest instead simply makes sense to me.

But I only came to this conclusion because I consider Sansa to be of equal importance. It’s more or less a precondition of even consider Jonsa, even more so to ship it in a canon kind of way.

Now, to put an end to this little rant and get back to the original topic, D@ny and Ary@ stans regularly accuse Sansa of “stealing their narrative” or at least “Sansa-stans want her to have it all”, so it’s no surprise that they a) don’t want her to be key player and b) subsequently don’t want her / can’t see her ending up with Jon. There are a few very great posts out there dealing with the issue why Sansa is hated so much, but I think it comes down to (to get off topic one more time, because it’s my speciality)

Misogyny. Feminine characters always attract a lot of unwarranted hate (female characters and general, but at least on tumblr … one can undeniably see a certain trend), more so the ones who don’t take off their clothes. There’s this really nice post going around that as a female character you either have to a) be a sex object or b) act like a man. I would link to it if only I could find it. I’m not going to add much to this, it has been talked about many times.

You can’t live vicariously through her. Sansa’s narrative often is … very frustrating. Nobody “wants to be Sansa”. People want to be the rebellious, fighting girl who doesn’t take any shit, they want to be the mother of dragons who goes around the world freeing slaves, they want to be Jon kicking some White Walker ass, they want to be the future three-eyed-raven (though Bran is seriously underappreciated by the fandom), they want to be a smart ass know it all, like Tyrion. They don’t want to be the girl stuck in situations she has almost no means of escaping. The sad truth to this is though, most people, if they found themselves in the same situation, “would be Sansa”. Most people aren’t active heros who fight against the unjust system all the time, most people aren’t geniuses, or brave enough to put themselves in harm’s way for the sake of other all the time. I actually fell in love with Sansa’s character because of that. (Though I have to admit myself, I was rather indifferent to her character for partially those exact reasons myself). It’s refreshing and a honest take on human nature to have a heroine who mostly has to resort to endurance and passive resistance. Mostly, not always. I don’t subscribe to “Sansa is weak and useless” weekly. Don’t get me wrong. She’s awesome and badass in her right, it’s just a bit harder to notice and appreciate. In this aspect she’s probably the most “realistic” character of the key six and people don’t like to read the truth about themselves. They wanna read about what they want to and could be.

People are projecting. HARD. I spent a lot of time wondering why Sansa gets so much shit for her “evil deeds and traits”, in a series where people kill other people, shove children out of windows, burn people alive, rape a slave prostitute, and so on and so forth. And you know what? It’s easier to “forgive” those things because they are so absolutely horrendous. All these things are so far removed from our everyday reality (for most people at least), that it severs our emotional connection to it. Don’t get me wrong, we can still judge their behaviour, we can still emphasize with the victims, but we have no personal experience to connect to. But Sansa’s “villainous characteristics” (especially those of s1/agot)? An ignorant, privileged white girl who is mean to her little sister for being different, is caught up in some naive classicism, does stupid shit because she has a crush on some asshole everyone else could sniff out a mile away and always has to be so fucking perfect all the time. NOW THAT IS A “BAD GUY” WE KNOW! That’s a “villain” we all encountered in real life. To put this in different terms: I’ve never been pushed out a window for witnessing a incestous relationship between two people of high social standing (nor has anyone close to me), but have I felt victimized by my sister being the pretty, perfect girl, while I was the loud, unruly, unattractive tomboy? Yeeeeeeeeeeees. Have I ever actually lived through the experience of my elder sister getting nicer gifts than me, because “I would just break them”? Yeeeeeeeeeeeesss again. I grew out of it after elementary school, of course (okay, to be completely honest here, I might have still struggled with it during puberty, but thank god that’s also behind me). This also works the other way around: I have never been in the situation of “having” to push a kid out of a window, because it witnessed my incestous relationship and I, my sister-lover and our three children would lose their heads if he told anyone. I’ve never had slave master nail 163 children to crosses to piss me off. Idk, man. I have no idea what I would do. I never had to deal with shit like this. Who am I to judge? But then people look at the “mean” things Sansa did and go I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER. (though they probably did at some point in their life).

Since this is tumblr, I have to note something: I don’t think this applies to everyone who dislikes Jonsa. I don’t think that everyone who dislikes Jonsa also dislikes Sansa. I’m not even saying that everyone dislikes Sansa for the reasons listed above. Before you accuse me of any of this, make sure you didn’t fall victim to a logical fallacy. I had enough of those lately. Those are just a few of my personal observations and conclusions, that I think, apply to quite a few people. If your reasonings and opinions are completely different, great, I’m not arguing, just don’t give me any shit about it.

So to draw some final conclusion for this long ass post: Jonsa of all ships is so bitterly fought about and/or not taken seriously, because a) Sansa attracts a lot of hate for several reasons, b) Sansa is considered to be too unimportant to be the “romantic lead” kind of main character grand love interest.

Shipping Jonsa is not “delusional” if you a) consider all three lead ladies to be of equal significance and b) don’t dislike Sansa. (Though since this is Tumblr, I might point it out one more time: This does not mean that anyone this applies to also ships Jonsa. This does not mean that this doesn’t also apply to people who don’t ship Jonsa. This does not mean that only people who stan Sansa hard ship Jonsa - I myself actually started shipping it because I staned Jon so much and I need my baby to be happy. Some people who fulfill both a) and b) might still believe that Jonsa shipper are “delusional” simply because it’s the common narrative of a big portion of the fandom.)

… Now that I think about this, the entire question could have been answered with the last paragraph alone, but you know how we do, go big or go home.

#caitnan #jonsa #anti-jonerys #shipping of got #meta #kind of #sansa stark #sansa hate #long post #really long post

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occupyvenus · 7 years

Text

On why Dany should be an antagonist ( ≠ villainy villain )

Season 7 is right around the corner and I have some thoughts, opinions, speculations and theories I have to get off my chest. I will try to keep any book-specific analysis out of this discussion. This is (as much as possible) show only.

Something that always struck me as odd was the existing controversy sorrounding Daenerys’s character in the fandom. With all other characters, the audience can generally agree on where they fall on the “morality-spectrum”, so to say. Jon Snow is an unproblematic fave, if there ever was one, Joffrey and Ramsay are among the most evil characters to ever grace our TV screens, the Hound made a text-book antagonist-to-protagonist transformation (even receiving in-show absolution via Arya taking him of her kill-list) and show!Stannis - before the daughter-burning incident - was clearly planted in the middle. People liked him and even rooted for him, but no one’s arguing that he was involved in some very dubious, evil, amoral shit. Show!Cersei was ripped of most of her book-counterparts cruelty, but the fandom generally agrees that she is one of the clear antagonists / villains of the series.

The point is that the audience - minus some radical stans or antis - can generelly agree on where characters are on the good-evil, protagonist-anatgonist chart at any specific time of the story or during a particular arc. If not on the exact point, at least on the general vicinity.

But Daenerys? Her placement jumps all over from divine saviour to unreedimingly mad queen depending on who you ask, unlike any other character on the show.

In the end what’s really important isn’t to wether a character’s behaviour is 100%, 75% or 50% evil/good but wether we - the audience - root for them (protagonist), root against them (antagonist) or aren’t really sure about it.

If there are any clear protagonists, or hereos if you will, in GOT and ASOIAF it is the Starks. There is nothing they could do that would actually turn the audience against them. I know I promised to keep any book stuff out of this, but there is a reason A Promise of Spring’s original title was A Time for Wolves. The Starks are the heart of the story.

A little sidenote on starkbowl and Sansa becoming an antagonist (which I really can’t see happening): Sansa turning into a villain also comes at the cost of her being a Stark, just like Tyrion tuning into a good guy severed him from the Lannisters. When talking about “the Lannisters” you mean Cersei, Jaime and Tywin. Tyrion and his family have become two separate entities in the collective mind of the fans and show watchers. If Sansa really were to team up with Littlefinger and turn into an antagonist/villain she wouldn’t be ‘a Stark’ anymore. Even now, with her clearly being a protagonist of the series, anti’s will always fall back on the ‘she isn’t a real stark anyway’ rethoric. A Stark simply cannot be evil. (grr martin and D&D might let me fall straight on my face with this prediction, but I’d say that its veeerrrrryyyyy unlikely.)

But Daenerys? There is no other character in GoT who’s ultimate and inherent good-ness or evil-ness is so bitterly fought about. While misogyny definitley plays into it, I think it would be false to see it as the sole or main source or reason. Her character is set up to be ambigious. I disagree with those who accuse her of being a ruthless tyrannt, willing to do anything to achieve her goals and those who see her as a benevolent messiah who can’t do anything wrong. She is - at the same time - both of those things and neither.

To the general audience she is very much set up as a protagonist. It’s easy to root for her when she overcomes her abusive brother, fights for agency in a partriarchal world, destroys slavery or is on a subjectively honourable quest to restore her families legacy and reclaim her home.

But what happens when her goals and desires clash with those of our other protagonists? If the Starks are our heroes and her enemies/rivals, what does that make Dany to us, the audience?

But why can’t she just team up with the Starks and be a good guy ???

Two reasons: Drama and avoiding a clear good vs evil dichotomy. Going into season 7, our main-ish characters are set up as follows:

The Protagonists / Camp “Good Guys” Team Stark (Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, et al), Team Targaryen (Dany, Tyrion, Theon et al)

The Antagonists / Camp “Bad Guys” The White Walkers, Team Lannister (Cersei, Jaime et al) & Euron, Littlefinger

Has Game of Thrones really introduced us to some of the most sympathatic villains, problematic heroes and placed almost every character somewhere in-between only to have it end with various constellations of Camp “Good Guys” batteling differing fractions of Camp “Bad Guys”? No, I don’t think so. (Unless D&D stray faaaaar from grr martins original plans and intentions, which could happen, sure....) In order to prevent merely explicit good vs evil fights one or more characters/parties have to move towards the opposing camp. In my opinion, the most likely candidates for that are The White Walkers turning more good-ish -or less less bad-ish, if you prefer - and/or Dany expiriencing a similar shift in the opposite direction.

The show already laid the groundwork for the first option by revealing that the White Walkers originally were first men, who were turned into ice monsters by the children of the forest. [ The Youtube-Channel “A Theory of Ice and Fire” has some really good videos on the Origin of the White Walkers and the True Colors of the Children of the Forest. I recommend everyone to watch them and his other videos. His analysis and theories are very insightful and definitly worth a watch.] But humanizing the White Walkers can only go so far. It will be really hard, if not impossible, to make us actually feel any kind of remorse over their demise. They are such big threat to all of humankind, that any moral ambiguity about destroying them is lost and any question wether our heroes should oppose them becomes obsolete. Comparisons that come to mind are eradicting a virus or putting down a rabid dog. The dog isn’t responsible for the state it is in, but ultimalty it is for the best.

I will go into Daenerys transformation from pro- to antagonist at the end of the post.

To make for some interesting drama we also need tension and conflict between characters that are on the same side. Finding possible sources for this within Camp “Bad Guys” is pretty easy. Jaime is probably going to turn on his sister at some point and every alliance with Euron is going to be fragile at best and will turn into chaos for one or both parties at worst.

What about Drama within Camp “Good Guys” and it’s individual fractions?

Jons parentage is going to cause some tension within Team Stark, yes, but I don’t see any of the remaining stark children ‘throwing him out Winterfell’ because of it. I don’t see Jon discarding his identitiy as a Stark neither, especially after Arya and Bran come back into the picture. His relationship with sansa is so controversial that I don’t want to touch on it, but he isn’t going to go full Targaryen with his little sister and brother around. Can we at least agree on that? They will insist that he still is one of them and so will he. (I stand by my opinion that R+L=J and more importantly Jons reaction to it will cause a rift between him and Dany, not him and the starks).

The Dothraki and their way-of-life are probably going to cause some conflict within Team Targaryen. Dany isn’t as ruthless as some parts of the fandom make her out to be and she will be conflicted about bringing so much destruction to “her lands and people”. She might try to silence her conscience, because the ends justify the means, but she and her allies will have to face some really difficult choices. Tyrion might feel just a bit bad about attacking his home as well.

It’s as good as impossible to predict or speculate on Bran’s or Arya’s story line, since they are kept top-secret, but I don’t think they involve one of them turning bad.

Sure, Sansa and Littlefinger could team up and cause some drama in camp ‘Good Guys’, but they simply don’t have enough influence to put the stakes sufficiently high. Seriously, against a Jon&Dany tag-team, what could they - or anyone really - do to oppose them? What use is an antagonist if he doesn’t pose a vital threat to our protagonists?

Daenerys turning into an antagonist ( ≠ ultimate evil villain) simply makes the most sense from a storytelling-perspective. Both to cause tension between our protagonists, shake up Camp “Good Guys”, color our final conflicts in a nice shade of grey and lead us toward a bittersweet ending. Why is Dany the best character to “break bad”? She is the most powerful human character right now. (With the threat of the White Walkers looming over everything, any secondary antagonist/”villain” will have to bring a lot to the table to form a interesting, engaging plotline. I think it’s safe to say that Dany’s help against the army of the dead will be crucial. Keeping her allegiance unstable or it coming at a great cost would be substantial enough to stand on it’s own, while still being connected to the bigger arc surrounding it.) She is allied with some shady characters (As stated above, the Dothraki aren’t going to magically turn into peaceful people. Bringing an army whose entire culture revolves around raiding and raping and pillaging could be seen as a questionable move. Also, I do not think that her alliance with the Greyjoys is a coincidence. Yes, we all need to put our differences aside to face the White Walkers, but the Iron Born have caused so much havoc in the north, so recently, that their presence NOT causing any issue for a Dany-North alliance is hard to imagine. Specifically putting established enemies of the North - including Theon with his very complicated relationship to House Stark - on Danys side has to have some significance. As for the rest: I honestly believe that Olenna is going to kick the bucket very soon, she’s only still around because she’s so good at sassing people. I refuse to waste any more thoughts than necessary on the Sandsnakes, but murdering your family in cold blood isn’t exactly nice? Tyrion might be the only person on Team Dragon that has any kind of positive connection to the Starks. show!Tyrion, at least, does have a rather agreeable relationship with both Jon and Sansa.) Her political goals stand in direct conflict with those of the Starks (The Seven Kingdoms vs Northern Independece - and yes northern independence is actually important to numerous characters on the show) Jon’s parentage will cause some tension between them (some people believe that she’ll see him as a potential rival to the Iron Throne. I disagree. I believe the reason for Dany ‘turning against’ Jon won’t be him being a Targaryen, but him not wanting to be one. I am pretty sure that Jon’s initial reaction to R+L=J will be to utterly reject his Targaryen heritage, to get through this majore identity crises. And Dany will, understandebly, feel utterly betrayed by that. She won’t see him as a threat, she will try to persuade him to become ‘the man he was always meant to be’, she will want him to be a Targaryen and she will want him by her side -wether in a romantic way or not- when she takes the Seven Kingdom. And this is something that Jon will not give her. He will choose to be a Stark and that will be a hard blow for Dany. Her beloved brothers, Rhaegars son calling the “usurpers dog” his father. I don’t know who much this will influence the overall plot but it will definitely strain the relationship between Jon and Dany.) The North, Vale and - presumably- Riverlands allience (Having the same regions rally behind Jon/House Stark “against” a Targaryen queen smells of Rebellion 2.0 ~with a twist~ this time opposing a conquerer, not the established ruler. I admit that this leaves out the Stormlands but with Gendry coming back, who knows? He has a friendly - possibly romantic, *wink* *wink* -relationship with Arya and if he’s put in any position to make such a decision he will ally with her side.) She has shown the compasity for cruelty & violence (You can argue wether or not her opponents had it coming - yes for Kraznys mo naklos , no for the randomly crucified & burned masters of meereen, mayybe for the khals; but the fact that she’s willing to use such questionable, violant measures while having giant fire-breathing dragond at her disposal opens her up for a very dark path. Someone with nothing but swords going a bit too far wouldn’t have the same consequences as the mother of dragons stepping over the line. Speaking of dragons) Her dragons are a ticking time bomb, she can’t properly control (At one hand they will play a crucial part in defeating the army of the dead, but on the other hand they are fucking dangerous and Danys ~varying~ inability to control them is a well established plot point. Reducing their final role to being magicals weapons bringing down the big evil would be so chliche and go against many of the problematic themes concerning them. Btw when has one person having so much power ever ended well?) There will be no Iron Throne or Targaryen Restoration (I don’t believe that ASOIAF or GOT is about Dany restoring the Seven Kingdoms to it’s “ideal” previous state of absolute Targaryen rule. Not only would this render Roberts Rebellion meaningless, it would portray it as a mere temporal disruption of the rightful order which is just... no. The rebellion was a justified uprising against a tyrannical king, it’s the event that started the story and it should still have significance at the end of it. Sorry, not sorry, but Dany isn’t simply going to press the ‘reset button’ on Westeros. The Iron Throne is doomed, so is House Targaryen and so is Daenerys - unless she peacefully settles down as Lady of Dragonstone, which is ... rather unlikely.) The controversy about her character is exactly what grr martin wants (This whole long-ass post started with the extraordinary discrepancy concerning Danys position on the evil-good spectrum. People can’t seem to be on the same page when it comes to her. And you know what? That’s the point. No ones objectively ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Characters are on opposing sides for their own reasons, not because they are inherently evil or good. Everyone can either agree or disagree with those reasons and form an opinion accordingly. Having the audience “choose sides” between two fractions we both rooted for when separeted, once their stories collide would be an appropriate ending for the story.

I propose the theory that this contradiction (rooting for the Starks and Dany) and Danys role reversel when switching from her own separate to the shared storyline (from protagonist to antagonist) is already in full effect within the more obsessed part of the fandom (who loves to speculate and “think ahead”) and will hit the the casual viewer in season 7.

Last, but not least having all of our protagonists team up after meeting for the first time and descending on the evil dudes with immense force just feels so ... boring, predictable,anticlimactic, lord-of-the-ring-sy? Everyone coming together and defeating the White Walkers after having some serious beef with each other (sometime mid to end seaon 8) would be way more dramatically satisfying. I think that Daenerys will take a clear antagonistic role against the starks until the very end when she comes around to save the day.

Since I know someone is going to bring it up: I am not saying that any of this would be an impregnable obstacle for any romantic relationship with Jon. It would complicate things, yes, but also make them a lot more interesting. Neither am I saying that Dany will turn bat-shit crazy and burn down all of Westeros just because.

In the end, these are only my thoughts and opinions. Maybe I’m wrong about all this and the show will move into a completely different direction. We won’t truly know until the last episode, will we?

Thanks for sticking with me until the end, you’re a champ, and tell me what you think.

#game of thrones #got speculation #got season 7 #got meta #daenerys targaryen #meta #my stuff #my opinion #got #loooong post

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