#people are jumping to say it's a queerbait and will never actually happen

[aceironwood]

Any time someone says that rwby is queerbaiting I instantly know they do not watch the show. Sorry that they chose in the no-win scenario of have a queer lead couple get together quickly or through a slow build up, to have a natural progression of a relationship over time

[ferhog]

If I may be so bold I think some G-Witch fans are overreacting a TAD bit.

Specifically the odd number of people saying that Sulemio has been "Decanonized" by this statement, or turned into "Retroactive queerbaiting". People, the company's social media saying that the relationship is "Up to interpretation" does not erase what the writers and artists put into the actual show. If you ask me the only sensible response is asking what substances Bandai is on that they consider THIS up to interpretation:

If future releases of the show start removing all this THEN we can panic, but I sincerely doubt Bandai wants to do that, otherwise they wouldn't have let it happen in the first place.

I may be optimistic here but I also don't think this means they're going to be shying away from the relationship in the future like many are fearing. Iron-Blooded Orphans was featuring blatant gay content half a decade before this show and that included confirming that two women were married in an interview after the show ended, so clearly the company isn't utterly terrified of this stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being a one-off incident (Which ISN'T to say that people shouldn't be angry about it by the way, I just think the wrong conclusions are being jumped to) especially since it seems to be receiving a negative reaction in both the English and Japanese spheres.

It's also worth noting that this stuff is almost certainly going on behind the scenes with a lot of franchises. Series like Nanoha and Symphogear are famously very sapphic but their lead couples have never kissed or verbally acknowledged their romantic relationship presumably because there's also men in charge who think there's more value in things being "Left to interpretation". Not saying that it being more common makes it okay. I just think that the people saying that they now want to drop the franchise over this should consider if that means they should give other franchises the same treatment. No moral consumption under capitalism and all that.

TLDR: I care more about what's in the show than whatever the PR team says. Ichirou Okouchi has been liking tweets of people praising the romance and art of the two kissing. He knows what he made.

[hislittleraincloud]

No, they didn't rob you of anything.

Two women were in charge of "Quid Pro Woe": Gandja Monteiro and April Blair.

Actually, three women were in charge if you count Ortega.

It's anti-Ortega for you kids to glom on to a characterization that is the opposite of what she worked so hard to craft for us, changing lines and admitting to changing lines in the script [for "Woe What a Night"] because she knew what Wednesday would and wouldn't say and do and is "very, very protective of her".

And it repulses me that a trans man would saturate the scene (and the entire book) with fanonist, anti-Ortega crap that never happened on screen to queerbait. LGBTQIA+ people who deliberately queerbait a popular franchise in the entertainment industry aren't doing us any favors. Queerbaiting has always been bad, but it's 2024 and we're supposed to be aware of it/be enlightened about it.

And more, a trans man shoving his hands into something women created and fucking with it so that the main female character is nearly unrecognizable in an officially published take is offensive to me as a feminist.

It is extremely disrespectful to their work, especially when women who write and direct still have to work harder in the industry to be seen, their work often overlooked in favor of what the men put out. You don't ever see anyone talk about Monteiro, this shitshow is always Burton's:

I'd tell you to stop it but I know you won't. It's like watching y'all run right into the pretty, rainbow-ringed Grand Prismatic Spring at Yellowstone. I keep telling you not to fucking jump in, that you'll get burned (and worse), but you're blinded by those cute little swimming goggles that you fully believe will protect you.

[marnz]

I watched tsn last year because my memory suddenly remember that i used to see photos and gifs of it in 2016 and i read someone blog analyzing the relationship of mark and eduardo (in 2016) but didn't know it was a fb film, so i decided to watch it, to be honest my brain is pretty damage from working corporate job and seeing how nasty capitalism is, so my first thought watching it wasn't really wow gay, eduardo was in love!!! but was more like wow mark is such a jerk, i didn't see anything gay that people were screaming about 🙃 and being reminded that this is zuckerberg and his old friend irl did not help, and i also read the story of what actually happened irl and understand how eduardo was also a jerk too so i just jumped into ao3 to read fanfic, i actually wish i watched it during highschool or college time more because i truly can't consume queerbait series or films that aren't obvious anymore, normal queer film/tv series is fine tho. This is just my own experience i'm sure there are many tsn new fans who watched it and also enjoy how "gay" it is like you guys in 2010 too :) i just have damaged brain i think

oh no friend I’m so sorry about your job! Let’s get you a better one. I don’t think your reaction is wrong at all, like I said, it was a different time and you had to be there. I got into it in college and exited the fandom in the mid 2010s; I would never in my life get into it now. I think you are right…it’s 2024.

However I have been thinking about this since I got your message and I also think the constant analysis and the fanfic contributed pretty heavily to the atmosphere, plus like I said the Andrew Garfield of it all. Honestly I think the fandom boils down to a couple things:

1) the film has homoerotic subtext mostly evidenced by Eduardo. There’s a lot of time spent on Eduardo’s feelings about Mark, like even during the bathroom blowjob scene the camera takes a moment to remind us that Eduardo is thinking about Mark in the next stall. There is almost no time spent on Mark’s feelings about Eduardo. So this subtext is like, there are feelings and they are unreciprocated. Isn’t this so tragic when 0.03% happens? Mark certainly talks a lot about his feelings for Eduardo, but words do not matter. Action matters. Contrast this with a more classic queerbait like Sterek where 1) there was queerbaiting market and 2) there was reciprocal homoerotic subtext that could never be acted upon.

2) I don’t think fandom is super good at dealing with an unlikeable or unsympathetic yet compelling protagonist! Which means this protagonist is rendered much more sympathetically in fic and people watch or read the media source with rose colored glasses. “He would not fucking say that” x1000.

3) I’m not that much older than you I think but…there was this period in tv where there were canon gays who were as interesting and dynamic as a pool noodle and, meanwhile, in subtext and/or queerbait land, there were relationships that consistently got a lot of time and attention and so were sooooooo compelling. And those are the relationships that I, and fandom, tend to gravitate towards. Plus growing up there weren’t a ton of happy gay stories so instead it was like, you have Brokeback Mountain, you have Dead Poets Society, you have What Happened to Lani Granger? You have, for some reason, Glee (boring except for faberry and Santana). Thank god we are not there anymore.

4) I have bad taste <3

Anyway sorry for rambling here, your asks got me thinking because it very much was like hmm well yeah it IS completely inexplicable huh but I think a lot of fandom is like that.

[epickiya722]

Random ask....Do you think anime like Free, Sk8, Jeweler Richard and Yuri on Ice are queerbaiting or at least have semi canon couples? I mean I love those anime series and my fav otps are from those series, but what do you think? Also, why do you think shounen series like bnha, haikyuu, and naruto has the largest shipping fandom compare to canon romantic BL series?

Hmmm...

Okay, off bat, I'll say that "queerbaiting" is a lose term to me. People use it so much that most of the time I feel like they say it just to say it. (Not directed at you, Anon.)

And I actually never watched Jeweler Richard. I've heard of it, but I didn't watch it... because I forgot about it. I also, never watched all of Free!

Now to answer the first bit... I'm leaning towards "no" here.

Queerbaiting to me is if the promise of some queer rep happening is marketed just to draw in the audience and then the people who made said show switches it up at the end like "oops sorry, actually these characters are totally straight and they're dating people of the opposite sex" and erase all that rep or just never touched on it.

Yuri On Ice, I wouldn't consider it queerbaiting because we get some same-sex romance. It happened. Even if the gay romance in there was used in marketing, it still happened. Sure, it did lure in the audience, but promises were not broken. Yuri and Viktor are a thing.

Same for SK8, I don't consider it queerbaiting either.

BONES never promised us that Reki and Langa were going to be a thing by the end of season 1. We also gotta remember that SK8 isn't a strictly romance. It's a SPORTS anime just like YOI. So the show focused more on skateboarding and the purpose of it for the characters than actual romance because it's not necessary.

It's why I really disliked how some people treated the ending as if it was the worse thing in the world. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get mad at it because I just wanted my boys happy and skating together again.

Just because Reki and Langa didn't kiss, it didn't mean that we were queerbaited. They weren't promised to be a couple. Surely implied, maybe yeah, but explicitly promised? No.

Also, just because a couple doesn't kiss at the end doesn't mean they're not canon. A ship doesn't have to kiss to be canon!

Kida and Milo didn't kiss at the end of Atlantis: the Lost Empire, but guess what? People were aware they're a couple by the end of it. They held hands and that was it.

Kissing isn't the only romantic gesture. There's hugging, cuddling, holding hands, words and even jumping in front of someone to protect them.

And just like how all that can be romantic, it also can be platonic, too. It depends on the context of how that action or those words are being used to show romance or just platonic feelings.

We really don't know if a relationship is a canon romantic one unless it's confirmed.

Back to SK8, at best, the relationship between Reki and Langa is an explicit close one. They trust each other, they want to skate together, they're comfortable around each other, they are friends.

And with a season 2 apparently coming, Reki and Langa may just happen. It was probably built up the way it was for a chance to make it canon, just in case they could do a second season. But just in case they couldn't, they ended it on a safe note, let the audience interpret how Reki and Langa feel about each other but made it clear that they are indeed close.

Now for the second part!

I think those animes have the largest shipping fandoms over BL series because they are some of the most popular animes. A lot of romantic series slide over the radar because series like BNHA and Naruto have a wider reach. There's games, cons where the VAs show up, movies, collabs, etc. They're also the "less risky" series.

People wouldn't clutch their pearls if someone says "Oh this anime is about superheroes" or "this anime is about ninjas".

However, if you say "Oh, this is about a romance between two boys", you're probably going to get someone homophobic.

I also figure because even without gender or sexuality involved, people don't care for an actual romance anime. With a romance, it's like... because it is a romance you know who is going to be with who. You can be happy with the choices, but maybe the thrill isn't there. You know the clichés and whatnot. The characters are the same characters you see in any romance.

However, let's say with BNHA. There's a thrill to shipping... I'll take DabiHawks off the shelf for this. There's a thrill because DabiHawks, it's a variety to it. You don't get the "boy next door" or "the better guy but not the choice". You get two enemies that fans turn into lovers in their fics. People dig the enemies to lovers trope and characters like Hawks and Dabi have fans drawn into the series. They're "cooler" than the male love interest of a romance.

And fanworks are there to create something that you can't possibly get in canon.

Some people may feel this: what's the point of writing a fic of a ship that is already canon?

[dulcewrites]

omg you're so right about people blindly putting up book!laenyra's relationship on the pedestal and falsely claiming it as a better wlw representation, this has been driving me nuts for Ages!! they looooove to bring up rhaenyra's and alicent's book ages and their stepmother/stepdaughter status any time they're asked to explain their reasoning, completely disregarding that in the show canon they've never had that sort of dynamic and that she obviously had been rhaenyra's friend first before being forced to marry viserys. which was of course tragic for both of the girls (more for alicent for obvious reasons) but then they talk about it as if it was a conscious choice she had made to specifically ruin nyra's life hfjjdjf as if she could have gone against the KING and refused??? like baby, that's a whole victim you're talking about.

they're so blinded by their hatred for anyone in the five meter distance of team green they're jumping through hoops to make something out of nothing, even going as far as calling alicent abusive 💀 i can stomach them calling rhaenicent a bad ship and a rulebook queerbait because they're allowed to their own opinions (and i know most of them are just coping) but when they try to pull stuff out of their asses in favour of their 'lesbian' rep consisting of a guy preying on his two younger blood relatives oh my blood just starts boiling. anyway sorry for ranting about this in your ask box but i just have a lot to say about this, especially as you've said most of them could care less about laena in any other setting 😭

They use the dig of “oh it will never happen on screen” as if we aren’t talking about two medieval women, one of which being the queen regent and the other being the princess and supposed heir. The last canonically gay character we had on screen was miserable to the point of literally leaving his family… DUH we know it probably won’t happen. The fact that the writers and multiple actors see rhaenicent is enough.

The “oh I can’t ship rhaenicent bc Alicent ruined Rhaenyra’s life” argument is hilarious bc it’s not like Rhaenyra was a perfect angel towards Alicent. We have to fill in the blanks bc there is no scenes showing this but it’s assumed that Rhaenyra begins to pull away after Alicent is forced into that position. I don’t blame Rhaenyra for that, she’s young but it truly spirals from there. Its the same logic of them being like “they are step daughter and mother” while shipping the people who are actually related. Just pulling shit out of thin air bc they hate Alicent, and can’t stand they still care about each other. I know they are gonna be sick to their stomach when she pardons Alicent 💀

It really pisses me off when people only talk about laena and her kids to uplift daemon and or Rhaenyra. Either come correct or let my girl rest easy

[mynameisnowwyrm]

I genuinely need to know if this is an actual thing or if I'm just talking out of my ass so if you have something to add please do.

Hypothesis, thesis statement, whatever you call it: mainstream shows approach sexuality as if it is fixed in place with no fluidity.

Either a main character is gay from the beginning and out and proud, or a main character is gay from the beginning and in the closet and they're gonna do a whole self acceptance coming out storyline. Either way, the audience knows the characters sexuality.

Specifically (I'm thinking of 2010s shows) when a show starts off telling you all the sexualities of the main characters. Straight character, straight character, gay character, straight character. A lot of the times there will be a significant queer ship among the fans between the straight characters (bc people don't usually write good relationships for their queer characters but that's another story) but you get the feeling this is never going to be a thing bc the unspoken logic of the world regarding sexuality of the main characters is that the audience always knows. They already had this one queer character from the jump who everyone knows is queer so they aren't going to ever do a storyline where one of the other characters has believed they were straight their whole life and the whole time has been shown to the audience to be straight but is going to discover that's not the case, bc the sexualities of the characters are fixed in place.

I'm thinking specifically of 2010s shows here bc it's an interesting point in time. 2000s shows, if they had any gay characters at all, you get the feeling that "there's already one gay side character, quota filled" from the writers so you don't expect more. Coming into the 2020s were seeing a diversifying of queer characters in TV, with different sexualities and gender identities being represented. Im not saying there's a a hard line of linear progression in representation and we are far far away from perfect representation but its better than in previous years.

The main one that comes to mind for me is teen wolf. The show is set up so that homophobia is not a thing, therefore all of the queer characters are out and stated to be queer on screen, leading you to the conclusion that if one of the main characters was queer, it would have been brought up. I know they made jackson queer in I think the last season where he cameos for two episodes but that happened entirely off screen after the character had been gone for five years, none of that development had been done where we could see or with a character that was still a main character.

Quick aside, a lot of the time I see the question "is this queerbait or is this just a slow burn romance between two people of the same gender?" And the answer is usually queerbait. I have never seen a mainstream show do a queer slow burn romance because of the fixed sexuality thing. No matter how strong the character's bond is, how much relationship coding there is, unless writers start diversifyingtheir view of queerness, both characters in the ship need to already be explicitly queer for it to be a possibility. So 1. you need two established queer characters, 2. they need to both be in the show at the same time 3. they need to both be significant to the story, so main character x side character we see only occasionally doesn't count. Name one mainstream show that has all three to begin with, let alone a will they won't they style slow burn romance instead of immediately putting the characters in a relationship. That's why I feel like if a show ever does do this it will be incredibly ground breaking, they will literally be breaking the mould.

I feel like I've tapped into a whole branch of queer theory regarding how queerness is seen in society that I'm not equipped to adequately explain.

[mangodestroyer]

Also, in season one, there are so many things pointing at them being a couple that it's actually pretty insane. How the fuck can people overlook this? This is a far more well-written romance than most love stories because it actually has substance and isn't just them kissing/hugging/doing not-so-angelic things to "show" that they're in love. In fact, I'd say that Anathema/Newt are an excellent foil to their relationship because yeah, they did the deed and it's pretty undeniable that they're a thing, but it feels so hollow in comparison to the husbands.

I'd say it's a beautifully written romance even if it turns out they aren't ace. Despite the lack of intimacy shown in season one. Because it had a nice build and there's so much more to Crowley and Aziraphale than s*x and kissing. It's not just people crying "queerbait!" I think it's also people not understanding a good romance when they see one. It's such a shame that this genre often ends up with so many one-dimensional dynamics because it's commonly accepted that love can only be expressed through a kiss or s*x. Even though having those intimate moments with another person doesn't actually prove anything on their own.

I wouldn't like Good Omens nearly as much if Crowley and Aziraphale came off very strong right from the start. It doesn't fit the story at all. It doesn't suit them as characters. Maybe it's time for people to learn that others experience love differently. Some of us take longer to fall in love. Some people don't need a lot of intimacy to feel happy in a relationship. Maybe it's hard for some people to do those more intimate things with their partner when they're going behind their boss, saving the world, and trying to keep their forbidden romance a secret.

Also, have more faith in Neil! I'd have a hard time believing he'd try to hurt marginalized groups on purpose, and I'm sure he'd feel awful if he did so on accident. People out here are acting like he's queerbaiting us out of malicious intent and whatnot, and that just isn't like him at all. I understand we've been disappointed in the past, but that's no reason to jump on every writer, artist, creator, ect. the moment they don't do one thing to your liking.

And no, I don't think this is queerbaiting because of the points I've already stated. As a member of the LGBTQ+ community, I feel like I've been appropriately represented in Neil's works and find comfort in them, and I'm sorry if not everyone feels the same way.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make this reply so long. There's always going to be someone out there whose got something to bitch about. The relationship between Aziraphale and Crowley just means a lot to me and I'm shocked by how much of their chemistry is being overlooked. I'm also getting really tired of all the policing that happens with LGBTQ+ content. Like, there are so many different ways in which these relationships can be represented because everyone is different and experiences their queerness differently. There is no single "right way" to be queer, and yet, people treat this like an exact science where if one element of a queer relationship falls "out of line", the work is suddenly bigoted trash. Even if the work is written by someone who is sharing their queer experience through fiction. This discourse is obnoxious, counter-productive, and unwanted.

There is never going to be representation that is "perfect", "pure", or "relatable" to every single person in that demographic. No matter how well thought out or written it was. If these people are so bothered by the way in which Crowley and Aziraphale express and experience their queerness, they are more than welcome to find another work that speaks to them more. Queer relationships are becoming more common in the media and we all know the fanfiction community has tons of queer individuals within it writing some amazing representation. And there are other creative outlets on the web where queer people hang out as well. Yes, there is work to be done, but there has also been some progress. We have more options these days and it's easier to find people and art you relate to.

I keep seeing people on TikTok say Neil Gaiman is trying to queer bait with Good Omens by responding to asks with “wait and see.” Like season 2 has not come out yet. He can’t spoil it. There are ndas and stuff. 🤦‍♂️

[daisiesonafield-blog]

Hi! I tried looking if you posted something similar to this but didn’t see it, apologies if this is a repeat question for you. I saw all the positive tweets throughout the day regarding the movie and was really looking forward to the full reviews. Based on all the full reviews posted so far it seems the consensus is the movie is either average or not good (and Harry’s acting especially seems to be described this way). Do you know or have you heard whether this type of contradiction is common (meaning the contradiction of tweets vs article content)? Hoping there are more positive full article reviews posted in the coming days!!

Hi dear,

I think there's a stark difference between press reviews from film critics, and reviews from those attending screenings. Although many of them are people with media or industry passes, not all of them are "film critics". Film critics are notoriously well, critical. But they can also be snobby.

I'm not using that to dismiss negative reviews. In fact, The Guardian gave a very well constructed review - it just happened to be an *incredibly* negative one, practically putting the nails on the coffin on Harry's acting career.

However, the majority of these "reviews" haven't done much actual reviewing. Instead they've used this opportunity to willfully judge, and crucify Harry, not for his acting, but for their perceived image of Harry as a queerbaiter. Variety themselves straight up calls him a queerbaiter in the 1st paragraph.

So there hasn't been much actual movie reviewing, and the other actors are barely even acknowledged when many "critics" spend the majority of the time harping on Harry's image in the press, jumping on the Harry hate train, and showing they didn't watch the movie closely by calling Patrick "Richard", and somehow thinking the story is of a bisexual man as opposed to a closeted gay man. And that that is somehow a diss on bisexuality as whole?

Of what I read, the consensus seems to be that the jumping back and forth between 50s and 90s is confusing and muddles character development, and makes the story hard to follow. The story is mellow when it should be heart wrenching, and the acting is tepid and subdued, so understanding the depth of emotion in the characters is hard. They were also bothered bc the story only shows Marion's point of view - which they say did a disservice to the story itself, and left it lacking.

That is my understanding of the view from these reviews so far.

However, it is important to note that these reviews nearly all brush of the governing theme of the movie: homosexuality and homophobia. So it sounds like they're mostly, if not all, coming from a very ignorant and heteronormative point of view. From people who are likely not homosexual, so can never understand the hurt and level of oppression the movie is trying to show. So they brush it off as a 'tired concept', and a 'soap opera' theme. As if we're not currently still struggling through similar homophobia and oppression in present day.

The industry as a whole is incredibly homophobic, and any and all queer media is always attacked, dismissed, not taken seriously, ignored, snubbed and downright misinterpreted.

I'm having trouble finding many more reviews, which is weird.

[diamondcitydarlin]

but yeah I guess one of the great things about OFMD and more specifically the Stedward relationship is that it DOES follow all of the beats of romantic slowburn, yes, but also (interestingly) it follows the beats of all the queerbait-y pairings we've watched intently over the years, except it actually delivers on what it's been building up to, and in doing so confirms to anyone that has ever seen these tropes/story beats with a pairing they were told were "NEVER GAY" were actually on to something in what they were seeing. It doesn't just give us representation of queer romance, it gives us a romance that seems carefully written to validate our prior interpretations of other things over the decades, as if to say 'all of these pairings were absolutely on a track to fall in love and the only reason they didn't, openly, is bc the people making it didn't want them to and that's it'

Because that's the other part of the trauma that we've been talking about, isn't it? It's not just a matter of shipping things that never went canon, it's about people in positions of power that we looked up to (often at very vulnerable stages in our lives, like when we were KIDS trying to figure ourselves out) telling us that even our interpretations are fundamentally wrong simply because making the characters queer was never an option in their minds ("like it's fine if people want to write that in fanfic but I, a cishet wasp man, would NEVER imply ANYTHING gay between two men so that was NEVER there OKAY"). And it gets worst past the point when someone figured out fandoms are lucrative and planting beats/tension that could be read differently by enthusiastic fans is beneficial to profit. At that point we're getting intentional suggestion of queerness, often encouraged and egged on during the run of a show via vague comments from creators/writers/actors, and then thusly waved away as something that never existed after the show concludes (or sooner, sometimes). At best, I mean often they just jump straight to ridiculing and sometimes harassing queer fans and anyone who liked that interpretation.

So like okay blah blah "it's just a tv show it ain't that deep" or whatever- or we could follow OFMD's example and stop ignoring the ways capitalism uses the queer identity for profit while exploiting but not in any prioritizing queer fans or their experiences or desires. It really doesn't take a lot of analysis to see how this pattern of behavior in mainstream media towards queer fans, over decades and decades, could be extremely harmful and communicate an attitude of 'nothing about your identity or wishes is important to us in any way, nor is it valid, in fact we find it funny and will make fun of all of you in multiple interviews and tweets :)'. Like, just that. Over and over and over and over again.

So anyway I think it's important that OFMD doesn't just subvert expectations here, but it seems to very intently use those tropes we've lived off of for years and INTENTIONALLY brings them to the conclusion we knew always knew they were reaching (ed and stede falling in love and kissing on screen) as if to say yeah yall were always on to something, you were never wrong or invalid, this is a thing that can happen and should happen and I just think that's neat.

[nakedmonkey]

I'm so excited after reading Paul and Lucia interview, but also really afraid Ava and Deb won't end up together as a couple after this talk, because they suggest she just seeks attention. What do you think?

Hi Anon!

(No real spoilers ahead just FYI, very very minor ones if at all)

So, in my post after watching eps 1 & 2, I realize now, I come off pretty Negative Nancy about the whole thing, and I want to be clear about some things: I LOVE this show. It runs through my veins at this point. I take issue with some of the narrative/technical/creative choices they made in the first 2 eps of season 2 because, in my opinion, those choices divert from the characters as we've come to know them, and I also feel they've sacrificed a lot of the emotional weight we were left with in the finale in favor of this supposed reset. I know most people loved it tho, and that's cool, we don't all always have to agree!

HOWEVER, I think there's a conversation we need to have, especially with season 2 premiering so soon for everybody who didn't get to see it in advance. So, I'm pushing through this retrograde-induced depressive episode to talk about some things because I do think it's important, especially given that a lot of us are just off this Killing Eve train-wreck of a series finale.

Alright, here we go!

The most important thing we need to keep in mind when jumping back into the show is that JPL have NEVER promised us Ava/Deborah endgame, nor has the show ever directly or explicitly pointed toward that being the intent of the plot. While it's employed every romcom trope already, they have NEVER given any indication that Deborah and Ava will ever canonically be romantically involved. The repeated mantra of "Hacks is a love story" is true and genuine, and in my opinion can remain so without having Ava and Deborah ever actually get together. It's important that we don't confuse fanon with canon because that's the easiest way to disappoint ourselves.

Now, I'm obviously not JPL so I don't know what their plans are for the show, but as it stands, and take it from someone who has listened to every podcast & watched every interview with JPL because what goes into making a show fascinates me, I have never, ever felt as if they're trying to sell us Deborah and Ava as an actual couple who get together and hook up and fall in love. This is not queerbait. I repeat, this is not queerbait.

(the rest will go under the cut as I discuss some spoilers from the JPL interview)

As far as that interview, and the comment about Deborah loving attention, I mean...I think that's been pretty clear from the very beginning. She even admits it herself when she says "You know I hate attention". She is an attention whore and we love her for it! I don't know if they really are going to allow Deborah to explore her sexuality on the cruise in the way I hope they do, but if that's a thing that's going to happen, in my opinion it makes perfect sense that it happens while she's surrounded by women who want to fuck her lol

That being said, we should also prepare ourselves for the heartbreak of Deborah being like "well, I tried that and it turns out I'm pretty straight" because it is a possibility. JPL don't owe us a queer Deborah Vance, especially if that was never their vision for her in the first place, and ESPECIALLY when they've given us so much queer content already. Literally everyone else in this show is queer, played by queer actors, written by queer writers, this show is still our queer unicorn. That they've given us Ava's dream already and that they'll give us (at least that's what it sounds like) Deborah potentially giving some lucky girl a chance is gift enough.

Look, we're lucky enough to have some incredibly talented writers in our little fandom. Writers who are so good they've convinced us Ava and Deborah are actually on the road to ending up together lol. That's what fanfiction is for, kids! All I'm saying is, let's be realistic about what we're watching and let's just enjoy this show for what it is and not for what it isn't because honestly? It's still like nothing I personally have ever seen and I'm not willing to discredit it that easily.

[mimymomo]

I don’t know how, but somehow Stranger Things 4 Vol. 2 managed to make me feel overwhelmed, underwhelmed, satisfied and unsatisfied all at the same time.

Like, I overall enjoyed it (Vol. 1 is still better imo) and I would still rank S4 somewhere at the top of my favorite seasons, but at the same time, it feels like I have to put major asterisks by the things I enjoyed:

I don’t ship Byler (or Mileven. You couldn’t pay me enough money to care about a ship involving Mike Wheeler) so I had no stakes in what happened there. I didn’t think it was gonna be canon and I loved the two scenes with Will between Mike and Johnathon. BUT I absolutely HATE how Will was sidelined this season and how the show didn’t fully dive into Will’s queerness outside of using it to propel Mike and Eleven’s romance. LET WILL ACTUALLY COME OUT AND SAY HES GAY!! I’m not one of those people who thinks the show queerbaited them (I mean come on guys, 70% of Mike’s dialogue is him raving and moping about El. Will’s feelings have felt one-sided), but I do understand the vitriol towards using a queer character to help push your straight ones. S5 better give Will some real showstopping shit. He deserves better than what he got (let’s be honest Will and El deserve better than Mike but that might just be me…)

Truthfully, I didn’t care about Eddie that much. He was a fine character and I wasn’t too broken up by his death. BUT I have to say this: DUFFER BROTHERS/ST WRITERS, PLEASE STOP INTRODUCING NEW CHARACTERS EVERY SEASON AND THEN KILLING THEM OFF IN THE SAME SEASON!! This is the third time this has happened. It’s predictable. Stop it.

Max and Lucas were easily the highlight of the entire season for me. Stupid Vecna/Henry/001 is racist and hates redheads cause that dumb bitch Jason was RIGHT THERE but nooooo he had to screw with Max! And Max better wake up and go on that date with Lucas in S5 (I 100% think she will except she may be blind now). Like I said in a previous post, killing Max would’ve ruined what episode 4 had excelled at portraying: a depressed person finding the will and strength to live through the trust and binds she has with her friends and loved ones. But that fake out death scene between her, Lucas and El was cruel and I don’t appreciate it! Like my favorite character died and my other favorite character has to watch the love of his life die in his arms. GIVE SADIE AND CALEB ALL THE EMMYS! AND LET THEM GO ON THEIR MOVIE DATE! Fuck, never plan dates in this show, you just end up dead I stg… Was this whole last bullet just an excuse to rant about Lumax? Yes! They’re the best ship in this show and I will scream about them until S5 let’s them be happy!

(And yes, El restarting Max’s heart is not as much of an asspull most people seem to be treating it as. Literally in S1 she caused multiple people to experience organ failure and their brains to explode/bleed from the eyes. Using her powers as a telekinetic defibrillator to perform essentially CPR on Max is not the big a logic jump).

Sorry this post was dumb and long, I just needed to vent. I’m not quitting the show nor do I regret watching Vol. 2 or anything, I’m probably one of the people who enjoyed Vol. 2 more than most, I just wondered if others felt similarly to me.

[mikewheely]

i just HATE the fact that people discredit mike’s feelings and often manipulate them into not even loving el but ACTUALLY having been in love with will the entire time… i hate twitter—it’s all i see there :c i have been muting and blocking accs.. and even if, and only IF, that were true (but i mean let’s be serious…), why do you want by*er together so incredibly bad that it would destroy el in the process? the guy she fell for was ACTUALLY in love with her brother the whole time. like…..why do people want that to be true? also, people can respond to that with “El’s existence or feelings shouldn’t surround mike…..blah blah blah” ok,, so how is that different than forcing mike and will into this corner that their characters are solely revolved around each other 🤨 i swear most of these people NEVER make any sense by regurgitating this shit. i’m sorry if i made absolutely no sense and i was just rambling. i felt like ranting because i think y’all would get what i’m trying to say

No, you made complete sense and I get it! They condradict themselves all the time. And also, I think most of those fans just watch ST because of their ship and for finding gay subtext. They would say they really care about Mike, and about Will, but they want El to die even though they know how much Mike loves her (they don't accept it though) and how much Will cares for his sister (like we saw in ST4).

I am sorry but if you want innocent people to die so that your ship can happen, that is really sad and messed up. You will hear a lot of terminologies from them like "representation", "queerbaiting" and all, and just see how all of those have been twisted by them to fit their narrative. Idk but is a person (who happens to be gay) being in love with another person who is already in a relationship, and him being unable to say it to that person is queerbaiting?! If you consider a straight relationship, even Steve's love is also unrequited. What about the fact that Will is scared, is just 14-15, IN THE 1980s, worried that it might ruin his friendship with Mike, his relationship with his sister El, and reveal is identity to everyone that he is not very comfortable with? So worried that he couldn't even say it to his brother? How about we give him some time? How about we consider the basic human emotions and see how heartbreaking it is before we jump to conclusions like it was 'queerbaiting', and that they are implying gay people don't deserve to be happy? They ignore Robin's storyline in the process, because, well, she is not a part of this ship. It's so sad when people reduce the emotions and struggles of a character to just a marketing tactic to attract LGBTQ audience. They won't see that he is struggling to accept it himself, they won't see the time period we are in, they won't see what scares him, that he cares about the feelings of people around him, and that he feels like he is a 'mistake'. All of these struggles and people are here like "oh god that was queerbaiting, let me write a Google doc on that." All they want is Mike and Will to be together. And many of them are just simply disgusting where they would reduce this to seeing them make out and wouldn't even mind sexualizing the whole thing. I'm so done. It's almost like pseudo supporters. Like they learnt some new things and they would apply it everywhere. Like the pseudofeminists who believe women should do ANYTHING to gain power, like 'using' others for their own benefit. It's the same for many of these people. Like no matter what, no matter how, what they want needs to happen, because THAT is true gay representation.

[rigginsstreet]

ummm i’m SO confused by people saying the duffel bags queer baited with steddie.

when did they hint towards them becoming a reality? when eddie was pushing the gross stancy narrative that nancy jumping into the water was “true love”? when eddie was just surprised that steve’s not a pos? come awn. whether someone cares about them or not, look at will’s storyline if you want to see some het bs. look at billy. steve and eddie? no. i’m sorry i’m just being honest.

steddie. what is this? icarly?

People let themselves get queerbaited by b*ler so like…. The intelligence is not there in this fandom to begin with. There’s not gonna be any good gay representation on this show you stupid sluts 😂

But yeah to think st*ddie was ever gonna happen…. Delusional.

Be very clear I never expected steve and billy to actually start jumping each other’s bones. I just…wanted a fucking enemies to reluctant monster fighting partners to friends storyline 😫 can’t even get that god dammit

[wigglebox]

saw an annoying take on twitter so instead of doing my school assignment i’m going to vent

i’m very happy they waited until the very end to tell us, unequivocally, that destiel was basically real. Notice how I said unequivocally but then ‘basically’, which would contradict each other — but I say “basically” because Dean never got to speak on it. But at least one half did. 

For those of you who followed me for a while, you know I was always Destiel positive, but I also never wanted a declaration of feelings until the end. I had guessed a few times, or hoped, or prayed, that if it were to happen then it would be at the end. 

the twitter take i saw was a screenshot of a former TVD writer saying it was a cowardly moment to put it at the end of the show. 

This is why I get annoyed when people who don’t watch SPN or had written for it actually try to give their opinions.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but this one has the same air as all the other non-spn watching or engaging-with people who tried to have hot takes on 15x18, 19, and 20. 

This person obviously hasn’t seen the few instances in the last year where Misha pretty much said that this was a hard hard thing they fought for and even just 5 years ago probably couldn’t have happened. 

This person was a writer for TVD and a former showrunner for Roswell NM on the CW — I’m saddened by the fact that they are seemingly not taking into account the reasons as to why 1) this happened at the end and 2) why it couldn’t be followed up. TVD started three years after SPN did, so this person should understand how homophobic TV can still be. This was all on the CW. 

but anyway — 

The reason why I was happy they waited until the very end was because this show was full of enough drama, enough hardships, enough everything without the need to throw this relationship into the mix. 

By this, I mean they, Dean and Cas, really had to figure themselves out before any real exchanging of feelings could happen. Cas’s whole confession was also him telling Dean he changed because of Dean etc etc learned to love because of him etc etc. They needed character growth. Dean had some in season 15 too, but they prevented him from making that final jump — because again — homophobia. 

I’m not one to believe in a lot of CW conspiracies anymore, I did at first because I had nothing else to believe in but now I really only believe in this one: They did not want Dean Winchester to vocally state his queerness. 

The writers and those involved with the show got by with what they could — there’s a difference between queerbaiting and queercoding. The show queercoded and tried to push through that final barrier but in the end, only one got through — and it was their third lead, “non human” character. And if that was a struggle getting it done, then you can imagine the struggle when it comes from your white male lead you’ve had since 2005 who has fans from right-leaning other white males to queer women and enbys. 

But the reason why I wanted them to wait until the end, barring any CW interference, was because, again, they had to figure out who they are. Dean had to start to get a handle on his anger issues [though he was still scared by the end] and Cas had to go through and figure out who he was as a being. 

This show is dramatic, emotional, and stressful for its characters. No romantic relationship lasted very long. I usually hate it when pairings get together so early in the show because then all that i’m going to be subjected to is relationship angst. For the most part. Boy Meets World? The epic highs and lows of the Cory and Topanga relationship but it was set in a sitcom world so even the dramatic bits like Cory cheating on Topanga I knew would get worked out. But Shawn and Angela never did and I’m still sad about that lol. 

But The West Wing? Josh and Donna finally got together halfway through the final season though it was a ramp up since season 1. Because that show is stressful and dramatic, I was grateful that by the time they got together, Josh was on this new journey being involved with the Santos campaign, and Donna seemingly found herself as well with the help of Josh [and Josh helped find himself as well and admit he missed Donna etc etc] 

On SPN — the bad guys already used Dean and Cas in a sense against each other. Him or us. Your boyfriend first. Attatched at the... everything. Villains would use Cas’s closeness with the Winchesters against him and them. I didn’t want that to be even worse with a romantic relationship. We’d spend every season with a problem happening and to me, it would have clouded their relationship for me and I feared I would have ended the show thinking maybe they shouldn’t be together. 

But by waiting until the very end, if the show ended correctly, it would have launched us into a sandbox world where we the fans could dream up of endless scenarios and events for them, good and bad, and we could control them. It would leave us off with the show ending, but this overwhelming sense of happiness that their relationship was finally realized on equal ground with them and we last see the characters excited and interested in figuring everything out. 

So when this writer says that waiting until the end of the series was ‘cowardly’, i get it, i totally do, I get where they’re coming from — however to me, I don’t need 12 seasons of this relationship to be QUEEEERRRR REEPPPPPPPPP because I would rather see them develop around each other, see their feelings grow for each other, and then end on a happy note — rather than have them rush getting together, and then have their relationship be put through the meat grinder.

But Jen! (you may ask) They DIDN’T end happy together! (if you don’t believe they’re all in heaven like me). 

Yes well — that’s where we get to the Dean problem. Cas’s moment was just fine — however they needed a few more episodes to button it up and have Cas get rescued and then Dean also be able to complete this emotional character arc with Cas. But he didn’t get to do that, and again, I’m going to blame the CW on that. I’m not blaming Dabb, I’m not blaming Bobo, I’m not blaming anyone but the CW and maybe a little bit of Singer. 

It’s why I am trying to manifest hard, every day, a continuation effort by jackles or someone for 6-8 additional episodes to sew it all up. 

So yeah anyway thanks for reading this rant — I haven’t done this in a while. I just don’t like it when people who don’t watch the show, didn’t really see the full 15x18 episode, etc etc, try to act all knowledgeable about it and then try to give a take like this. 

[h50europe]

Why the ending of the series finale felt off for many of us (and what PL could have had really in mind) - Aphorisms

As you can easily see from the photos, season 11 was a safe bet, as was a new team member, McCole. What could have been, it says, written by Justin, the wife of Alex stunt/stand-in double. I'm going to play the advocatus diaboli.

In the penultimate episode of H50, Lenkov created a new character. He was sort of based on Steve, but also not. As it turned out in the last episode, Cole and Steve also had a mutual friend: Catherine. Why does that not really surprise us? The rumor mill was really churning, and it was a given that PL was definitely going to bring her on board. So, without further ado, he made her a key person. She was the one who cracked the ominous code that Doris had left for her son. Question, couldn't Jerry have done that just as well?

Anyway, PL set up Cole and Steve. But the chemistry - for us - wasn't really there. They could have just as easily put anyone next to Steve. PL built on the military past of the two (what else) and finally the common denominator: Catherine. Oh, how original. NOT. If you look at this constellation, you can already guess where this was going. But there remained this one obstacle: Danny.

Well, no problem, Lenkov thought and had him kidnapped without further ado. All planned because of all the great McDanno moments we got to see in season 10. So appropriately for lulling, even if these moments did not have nearly as much heart as in previous seasons, but hey, the fans would swallow and relish it, PL thought.

Then came the obligatory threatening call from Daiyu Mei (note the clever pun ala Yoda: die you may...), and the drama unfolded. The whole thing was further clarified by the words of Wo Fat's ex: "I have the person you care about most in the world." Bummer, as she is not talking about Catherine but Danny. Queerbaiting at its worst. Then comes the usual. And during the escape attempt, Danny, who is already half-dead, gets shot. So far, so good, or not.

Danny's injuries could have easily been fatal. So now I'm going off the premise and just claiming that this was PL's original plan. Why? PL did mention at one point that he could imagine H50 without Steve or Danny, but he certainly wasn't stupid enough to believe that. It was nothing more than a smoke grenade. But what PL had wanted for a long time was the end of McDanno. He preferred another ship. But while McDanno sailed blithely across the seven seas, PL's fav ship never left the harbor. But now, he had the ultimate opportunity with a new, equal partner at Steve's side (Book'em Cole), who also pulled Catherine out of a hat.

PL's heart did somersaults. What a great plan that was. Alex didn't say anything about really wanting to quit, even after the series ended. While he had been open about his departure after season 7, there was no need to hide this fact now in season 10. And as you can easily see, all signs were pointing toward season 11. What PL didn't count on was the massive resistance from CBS.

In contrast to PL, they had no problems with Scott/Danny or McDanno. They knew that this was the heart and soul of the show. And PL's protector Moonves was no longer available because he had been kicked out of the network. So PL's back was against the wall. And nothing and nobody could change that. Too bad, because actually, PL had everything perfectly planned.

Danny would either die on the way to the hospital or later in the hospital. This would lead Steve to a massive revenge attack, which should have ended in a brilliant showdown (brilliant for PL, not necessarily for the fans), but Daiyu Mei escapes eventually. Then, Steve would have been driving around aimlessly. We were possibly shown some flashbacks, only to end up at Casa McGarrett, where Catherine would have already been waiting for him. Nice reversal of the goodbye scene from season 6.

The conversation between Steve and her would have been similar to Danny's, except that it wouldn't have been about his parents, but about Danny and that he just can't take it in Hawaii any longer. Too much reminds him of his dead friend. Steve also wanted to pay his final respect and bring him back home to Jersey. Of course, Catherine suggests joining him. What else? Now that one ship sunk, PL could easily replace it with HIS fav ship. And because Cole has done so well, Steve also entrusts him with the task force's leadership. Before Steve leaves to accompany Danny on his last journey, he hands Cole his credentials.

Steve and Cath stand next to each other at the airport and watch as Danny's coffin is loaded onto the plane. Then they board the plane together, ending with them holding hands as we know it. Fade out, season 10 ends.

How would it have continued in season 10? Danny's funeral would have happened off-screen, like so many other pivotal scenes. Steve would have maybe spent an episode or two mulling it over and then returned to Hawaii to hunt down Daiyu Mei with Cole and the team, which now included Catherine.

So much for Lenkov's wet dream, um, plan. However, because CBS knew that McDanno was the heart and soul of the series, they found this idea more than lousy and turned PL down. We could imagine that Alex also threw in that he would certainly not continue without Scott. There was a short back and forth, and it was decided to cancel the show. So we've come full circle to the sloppy, heartless execution of the last episode and the absolutely meaningless words PL put in Steve's mouth as a result. Due to lack of creativity and apparent lack of time, the deadline seemed to be predetermined, considering how quickly the soundstages at Diamond Studios were obliterated.

The crew was equally surprised when PL succinctly informed them that there would be no season 11. See the post from an angry crew member on IG.

Can we prove any of this? Nope, but it's the only reasonable explanation for why the show ended the way it did. Namely, completely illogical, with a Steve who was more than just off the rails. At the very beginning of the series, Steve gives completely different reasons for staying. If you do a rewatch, you'll see.

Everybody knows that you don't solve problems by running away. You don't get rid of the weight that you carry around with you. Steve may be a stubborn mule, but one thing he has never been: self-centered. And if Danny was really the most important thing in the world to him, as Mei said, then he wouldn't have dumped him in the end. Because that's what you do when you really love someone, you stay and fight against all odds. Especially when someone is in a bad place, like Danny, who has just jumped from the brink of death.

You don't suddenly go on a self-realization trip and kick the person who's already lying on the ground. But that's exactly what Steve did. At least the way PL wrote the part. The man must have really lost it when he wrote those lines. I'm sure he was enjoying pure schadenfreude.

And if you take a close look at the two protagonists, you can clearly see the reluctance with which they shared it all with the audience. There was no more room for any affectionate ad-lib actions that we knew from before. They could only stubbornly reel off what was in the script. PL would have done well to sit down with Scott and Alex and find a common solution instead of imposing his version on them and the audience. That's what people with integrity do, but the man never any.

In our opinion, the show's ending ranks among the dumbest and most unimaginative of all time. Rarely a person manages to drive a show against the wall in such a way and at the same time assassinated the main characters. PL shouldn't be proud of it. He should rather stand in a corner and be ashamed of himself.

And now you can go ahead and bash us, or just ignore the whole thing and keep on scrolling. Thank you for your time and for letting us share our thoughts with you.