#papyrus theorizing

[forgettable-au]

As someone with an AU that's SUPER focused on Papyrus' misteries and all the weird things he hides for some reason

I thought this post might be useful for some of you that want to see some of the weird things about him !! Hehe

I know not everyone has time to scroll for hours on tumblr searching for theories and I think this power point has very solid stuff about some of the weird things about him

(+ this has all those screenshots about things Papyrus says that I can never find online 😭😭lmao thank youu)

THE PAPYRUS POWERPOINT HAS BEEN UPDATED!

now including harrowing new information and up to date info from the legends of localization book and the newsletter Q&As!

[forgettable-au]

You said that one day in Sans’ eyes, papyrus just started acting different. So what extent about Gaster go before he became Papyrus? Is it just personality, or does he have any other memories, and how does what he knew before Papyrus was Papyrus format in his brain for it to make sense?

Papyrus does not remember anything about ever being Wingdings, for him it's like an overly complicated amnesia.

He definitely has a feeling of something not being quite right but there's nothing but emptiness.

Back when it all started that was all there was, an empty shell. Core parts of his personality still remained, but nothing more.

Papyrus' own personality developed around that actually, he feels forgettable and lonely, but mostly empty, that's why he tries so hard to make an impact in the world and make friends, look for something to defines him.

Papyrus is this and Papyrus is that, people would know who he is! Then obviously he would know who he is!

He could be a royal guard, undyne's friend, a body guard, a king.

He's looking to be something that people would like, the only reason he's so obsessed with spaghetti is because he makes spaghetti with undyne, so he made it his mission to know EVRYTHING about pasta to be closer to undyne, to have a friend but mostly to have a chance at joining the royal guard. Papyrus "A member of the royal guard!" Everyone likes the royal guard.

He's desperately looking for things to fill that emptiness.

The thing is he does have his own things that he likes and is good at and are a part of him, he is very artistic, he like making puns (not the one's sans makes), and he likes making things! Like puzzles!! (Also machines, that bridge, his snowman). He definitely reads a lot and knows a lot of stuff, but he pretends that he doesn't and lies and doesn't want to be associated with labs, or hotland or the core.

That was a lot, but basically, to the core Wingdings and Papyrus are very similar, but they both drift in very different almost opposite directions, according to their experiences and some other stuff.

Papyrus tries very hard to be a good, kind and positive person even if he has to lie to himself and others.

Wingdings, I really need to start this comics so you can see.

[alpacacare-archive]

Not to post knight papyrus on main or anything but

[lynxgriffin]

Since we've got plenty of time to reflect, who do you the Knight is? (I'm very much hoping it's Papyrus)

Okay! So! 

While I uh, think that Jaru is super wrong on almost all his theories, I've got one major exception where I think he is correct, and that’s the identity of the Knight:

(This is kinda long, so going under the read more)

Namely, that the Knight is Gerson’s soul tied to a particular object and brought to life in the Dark World. Although for me personally, I’m going to tweak that idea quite a bit because I think it can actually tie in really nicely with my current theories on Ralsei’s identity and nature. 

We keep getting little references to Gerson brought up here and there in both chapters: there’s a drawing of a turtle monster in the abandoned classroom, done by Alvin. It’s presumably either Alvin himself or his dad, Gerson, and I’m guessing it’s the latter. We have books written by Gerson in multiple places, a memorial bench for him, and then Alvin’s conversation about him in the graveyard by his headstone. Alvin also mumbles something about “did I do the right thing?” to Gerson’s grave. As long as you initiate a conversation with Alvin, the game makes sure that you don't miss that extra bit, which is a little telling.

We know that Gerson was originally a historian, and then later turned to writing fiction, and wrote a beloved fiction series that fans still send his family letters about after his death. 

What do we know about the nature of the Dark Worlds? They’re basically imagination and fantasy brought to life. While they certainly seem to have a full history outside of what we experience, with characters that remember each other even from other Dark Worlds, they’re only “given form” when a dark fountain is opened. Any Lightner with determination can stab the earth, and a dark, inky substance can spew from it and give a world of fantasy its own form. The Darkners frequently talk about how Lightners give them direction and purpose in their lives.

So…question! How many of you have used a fountain pen?

I have used those before. They’re quite sharp, and using them very often feels like scratching or stabbing the paper. Black ink spews forth, and from this black ink…you can create whole worlds of fiction! Worlds that other people can interact with! 

We know that Gerson wrote beloved fiction well into his old age. What if he knew his time was coming, but still had stories to tell? What if he didn’t want to stop? Alvin says how his dust was sprinkled on a hammer and buried in the earth, and that this is considered the appropriate monster cultural ritual for helping a soul pass to the afterlife. But Alvin also appears to have done something that is still really troubling him. Maybe Alvin, either at his father's request or based on his own wants, didn’t actually follow the appropriate cultural funeral rites, and somehow helped his father’s soul attach to a different beloved object…a fountain pen that he’d use to write down his story ideas. And if that object gets brought to life with a dark fountain, you could get the Knight: the soul of a writer, filtered exclusively through their favorite writing tool, unwilling to stop creating.

I think it would make sense on a few logical and thematic levels:

It explains how the Knight is able to get around and open the fountains: the same way that Ralsei is able to do the weird things he does. They’re both Darkners carrying Lightner souls, so they can bend the rules.

It explains Queen’s insistence that Lightners are the ones that can create fountains, while King hates Lightners but seems to fully trust the Knight…a Darkner with a Lightner soul can meet both those people's expectations.  

It sets up the Knight as a foil to Ralsei: they’re both the same kind of special Dark World being, both believing that they are fulfilling their roles and serving the Lightners, but coming to vastly different conclusions about how to do that. 

It explains the Knight’s motivations: not that he’s actually trying to destroy the world or anything, but that he’s trying to serve the Lightners. He knows very well how much joy and positivity his fiction has brought to Lightners in the past. How could more of that be anything bad? This is his purpose, what he was made to do. Not doing it is virtually unthinkable.

And I think that in turn keeps him following in the footsteps of how Toby usually writes his villains…rarely if ever fully malicious, but utterly convinced that they’re doing the right thing, or that they have no choice in the matter. 

And of course that ties in with one of Deltarune’s themes: the balance between reality and fantasy. The Knight has no more ties with reality, and therefore is focused exclusively on creating more fantasy and having it supplant reality, upsetting the balance between them. 

And this is extremely speculative, but I've been thinking about how Toby mentioned that chapter three will be a bit of an odd one out, that it's more about trying weird things than advancing a lot of plot. Kind of an interesting thing to note since Kris just made a fountain that should take us into chapter three. If the Dark Worlds are in some way shaped by the will of the Lightner that makes them, then chapter three indicates that Kris's will manifests more as just...trying out stuff rather than something purposeful. Kris makes a fountain because they really want to keep up this special hangout with their friends. But the Knight? He's making narratives.

[jesterable]

ive been watching some undertale video essays and i made myself think so hard about the game again.

did you guys know one of the only circumstances of the word "Howdy" in the game is by papyrus. all of the other ones are by the dreemurs. this is right after the alphys date. papyrus calls you and says "HOWDY!". and right after hes incredibly.. odd. towards you.

"IF IT ISNT MY GOOD FRIEND, WHO TRUSTS ME."

"THIS IS PAPYRUS. YOUR ALSO MUTUAL FRIEND."

etc etc.

I know its vaguely obvious that like. ohh flowey was telling him to say that! but. no one but flowey says howdy.

and we already KNOW flowey can do impressions, because of that one echo flower after you kill toriel.

so..???.........

[atwas-meme-ing]

I just thought it was sweet, is all.

[ruu-stuff]

AU where Papyrus has a YT channel called "Theory of Games".

Lol but really I am so happy to see more Papyrus Q&A. The Flowey friendship, the fact Papyrus has a detective costume (i assume/hope it's a classic Sherlock Holmes look?), something about him skateboarding? Clowns?! This update was great!

I hope we get to see him in the next Deltarune chapters. I'm just curious to see what he's going to be like, especially considering the idea of Deltarune was apparently conceived before Undertale. Whether they end up being connected or not, I'm excited about what's coming in the future!

[solidwater05]

There... there's no grass in the Underground is there? Only in Flowey's areas and maybe [maybe] Asgore's garden but he didn't live there.

Where is he from [where is he from]

[stunfiskz]

also the fact that there’s virtually no news or updates abt the upcoming chapters this newsletter…. please this was the one thing i was holding on to to get through this week

[azzydreemurr]

everybody overanalyzing papyrus' answers from the newsletter interview is actually kinda killing the mood for me

[the-unrelated-theorist]

I just want to go back to the

,,, as if he’s reacted badly to something Flowey did before,,,,

part.

one of my favorite headcanons is that Papyrus and Flowey planned out nearly all of the true pacfist route, from meeting Frisk all the way up to calling everyone to the barrier to stop them from fighting Asgore

i very much like to think that the one part they didn’t plan out was Flowey taking all the souls, which is why this happens

(you literally can’t convince me that his arm isn’t super broken)

because they didn’t plan this part out, Flowey takes extra precaution with Papyrus, because he wouldn’t know how he’d react,,, as if he’s reacted badly to something Flowey did before,,,,

idk lol, this is just something i like to think about every now n then

[abandoned-quiche]

I've seen it theorized that Papyrus might be an amnesiac, but I haven't really seen anyone point this out:

To me this feels like he's struggling to remember. "There was green grass" is really vague, not to mention being completely irrelevant to the question - like he only has images of it in his head but can't remember what his life was actually LIKE.

And...

Papyrus can't remember the last time Sans was able to celebrate the holidays with so many friends. At first glance that's just kind of sad, but it could be more significant than we think. The last time Sans would have celebrated the holidays with so many friends would have been before he came to Snowdin, right? At least, probably.

This whole idea of Papyrus only having vague memories of his life before could bring new context to a lot of different lines of dialogue from him. Him knowing what the sun is (as is known from his date), yet apparently not recognizing it when he sees it on the surface (which I initially assumed was just him making a joke, but it might not have been.) Him saying "ARE YOU IN A TOILET?" immediately followed by "ALSO, WHAT'S A TOILET?" like he knows that's something with lots of water but can't remember anything beyond that.

I'm not sure if there's enough here for me to fully believe he can't remember his life before yet. But it's definitely something to keep in mind.

[floofanflurr]

I! Am so tired of the infantilization of Papyrus. I'm so tired of the infantilization of autistic people, and autistic traits. I thought we were past this in this fandom... but NOPE.

I am absolutely NOT going to name any names, (especially because I don't think ANY of this is intentional!!! I don't think people are doing it on purpose!!! And I don't want to hurt people. And also because it's SO many people now. I see it all the time from so many different places. It would be impossible to list them all.)

But??? I am getting increasingly uncomfortable with the casual ableism in Papyrus fans, bloggers, and writers who don't even realize that's what they're doing. People who say they are against the infantilization of Papyrus.

(Sticking the rest of this under a cut so I don't clog any feeds)

I just!!!! It's all well and good to have your headcanons about Papyrus! He's a really mysterious character that we don't know a lot about! I'm not denying that! But I see SO many people just… saying things like:

"Papyrus would NEVER do (insert autistic trait here) because he's an ADULT! CLEARLY it was a joke."

or

"People take him seriously or at face value when he does (insert autistic trait here) but he's not stupid???? Clearly it means something else-"

And so freaking many variations of that.

Just. Have your headcanons about what Papyrus means or doesn't mean. That's okay! If you think he's joking that's FINE! But PLEASE don't shit on other people and be so casually ableist by saying that he could never be these things, or that these things would mean he was stupid, or childlike if he ACTUALLY meant them or did them.

ITS LIKE. Taking the initial infantilization of Papyrus in fandom and spinning it on it's head so far it goes right back into infantilizing autistic people by just. REMOVING PAPYRUS'S AUTISITC TRAITS AFTER LABELING THEM STUPID OR CHILDLIKE.

"You're infantilizing Papyrus! CLEARLY he could never actually MEAN these things or do those things for real because he's an adult-" AND LIKE. BABE. THOSE THINGS ARE JUST AUTISTIC THINGS.

And just.

It's really really upsetting to see the traits that I personally relate to in Papyrus have people saying "he could NEVER actually mean/do that! CLEARLY it was a joke, or subterfuge or insert something else here-"(the very strongly implied "because only Children do that" is so clear it's nauseating) (And often stated, but just in slightly different language. "It's clear." or "Of course Papyrus wouldn't-" or "He's smart!" or "He's an adult!")

Most of the portrayals I see of Papyrus are wonderful. While I've seen this a lot in fandom, I don't think it's the majority of people who create or write, or blog Papyrus content. But it's a big enough chunk that it is incredibly worrying and upsetting.

I'm also not trying to wave away any level of subterfuge, or mystery that Papyrus has. Because he has a lot! And!!! He's a grown ass adult! (A HILARIOUS one who cracks a shit ton of jokes and is witty as hell.) Someone who is very sneaky about many things, and masks a lot, and is clearly hiding SOMETHING. Have fun theorizing about him, because there sure is a lot to theorize about! Sneaky, sneaky skeleton...

Just. While I'm not trying to change anyone's headcanons... It might be worth it to see if the Papyrus you create has been removed from all of his autistic traits that are deemed undesirable (a level of social ineptitude or not understanding others, routines like bedtime stories, and so much more) while only leaving the ones you think are quirky or fun (things like masking, or stimming with big, flailing gestures, special interest in puzzles, etc.).

And if that's true, why might that be?

If the answer is "because Papyrus is too smart/mature/clever/etc. to mean or do this seriously." then that is no longer an innocent headcanon. That is saying that people who DO have those traits aren't smart/mature/clever/etc. That is infantilizing autistic traits. (And yes! Autistic people can also do this by accident! I used to fall victim to internalized ableism that I didn't even realize was there, and I've seen other people do it, too.)

I was going to get into a more in-depth list of Papyrus’s traits that are autistic traits or could be caused by being autistic, and basically write an entire fan essay on the whole situation, starting from the beginning infantilization of Papyrus in fandom (equally as bad) and ending with where we're at now as Papyrus fans. (This right now is not an essay. It's a vent, and a plea. When I say essay, I mean with cited sources, properly structured... An actual ESSAY that would help people.)

But… I’m tired. I know it’s an accident in most cases. I know that most people probably don’t realize they’re calling autistic traits “stupid” or “childlike” or “papyrus would never because he’s not a child—“

And I know that this one simple post isn’t enough to explain how autistic peoples’ brains frequently work, or why these things don’t mean someone is stupid or childlike.

I know that without a thorough explanation there’s so many people that won’t realize that they’re doing this. And it’s certainly not as gentle as I wanted to be. I want to be kind, because I know that it's an accident, and that people aren't trying to be cruel or harmful.

But I’m just… tired. I’m so, so tired. It’s hard to gently explain to people that are actively harming you and your community why what they’re doing is hurtful.

Maybe someday I’ll actually write that essay, and I can include helpful tips on what autism can look like, or how Papyrus's differing things COULD be (not necessarily ARE) an indication or presentation of autism, and also some more tips on how to integrate some of Papyrus’s characteristics in different ways in a fic that keeps his wonderful autistic swag if that's what you want to do. Maybe I can delve into some more of the nuance of this discussion, of which there is much.

But right now I can’t.

If you're worried you might be doing something like this but you really do need an essay or more structure and specific writing breaking it all out, then. Well! I want to help people. If you have questions about what I said and genuinely want to learn, I can do my best to answer and help in an essay if there's enough questions, or in asks if its just a one off question.

(Though absolutely no promises. The entire discussion is draining and triggering, so... It's hard. Please don't be surprised if I'm unable to keep conversation about this going.)

I don't want to write the essay if it's not going to help anyone though. So… let me know. Maybe in reblogs. Just please not in my DMs. I'll turn on anonymous asks for the next month or so, and if people use them to be cruel, or confrontational, I will be taking that away again.

If you've made it this far... Thanks for reading.

...And, you know what? Shitty TLDR:

Papyrus is a grown ass man who can say fuck and be a bad ass bitch, and who can also be an autistic adult. These things are not mutually exclusive to each other.

Edit: Someone sent me a wonderful essay written by the-irken-pony about Papyrus and autism that was written in the earlier days of the fandom and Papyrus infantilization. (I have no idea how I haven’t seen this before.)

It’s not the current issue of “wow you became the thing you most sought to destroy (infantilization)” in Papyrus’s fan base, but it’s a wonderful breakdown of autism in Papyrus. It’s a good thing to read with this. You don’t have to accept the various headcanons as yours, but please take note of the various things that could be caused by autism. And then make sure that you aren’t calling those things childish.

[sunny-knight]

Do you guys think when skeletons have kids they are like, so excited to find out what font/name their kids have. it's like a huge milestone, like taking their first steps or saying their first words

Then when Papyrus and Sans were born and they had these silly ass fonts their parents were like

Obsessed with skeleton lore Toby please Toby you gave us Boss monster lore now give us silly skeleton lore please Toby, ANYTHING, Tobias Radiation Lupus Deltarune kinda gives me hope with the whole THIS situation

Like the acknowledgment of that gives me hope by maybe its just a little joke but IDK YOU CAN NEVER TELL WITH THIS MAN

I remember when I first played Undertale in like 2016 cause my sister said she “thought id like it” (this is all her fault)

She told me about Sans and the fact that Humans and Monsters were the 2 races, my immediate ask was “Oh was he a human before and turned into a Monster?” and she said “…I mean some people theorize that-“

THIS IS A LONG WAY OF SAYING I don’t personally believe that, but I am interested in if there is any cool reason for a Monster to be SHAPED LIKE A HUMAN and technically be a part of one. Or if its just cause Skeletons are a popular type of “classic Monster”…

Okay Ive restrained myself from talking about Forgettable for… checks watchless wrist….long enough.

IMAGINEEEE AUGH imagine their parents reaction to one of their kids having a dingbat font like “oh boy- this kids gonna have a rough life”

Since S n WD are fraternal twins, do you think identical ones would have the same font? gimme an AU where Sans also talks in wingdings

hehehehe I still vaguely remember how big it was when Deltarune Sans said “little brother” and everyone was like YEAAAAAHHH ITS FINALLY CONFIRMED!!!!!! Like I completely forget there was a time when we didnt know who the older one was/if they were twins

Anywho. Tangent over until I think about more cool/funny skeleton lore headcanons

[maxladcomics]

When this symbol was brought up early on in the fandom I dismissed it as useless and proceeded to forgot all about it and the choice to dismiss it.

However, with Papyrus missing from the next game, and with context from said game, this specific detail might be important. I'm not saying Papyrus is a starman, or that he might have anything to do with the roaring, BUT, since that detail is there anyway:

I'm pointing it out so I can say I did because that's all that theorizing is for

[forgettable-au]

has papyrus ever accidentally spoken in wingdings?

Well, not really

He can't, he lost the ability to do that

Within my own personal headcanons a font is a defining trait for skeletons and is usually related to who they are

They can change their fonts for a little while:

(Taking these as examples of why I have them being able to change fonts temporarily as a headcanon, first one is Sans obviously not speaking in comic sans and second one, we all theorize that's Gaster but that's not really Wingdings is it?)

But they can't change it permanently

So Papyrus gets a whole different font because he's a whole different person

I want to add that even though they can change fonts temporarily, he wouldn't be able to change to Wingdings since it's a symbol font. Let's say it would be very difficult, unless in special circumstances

One thing I do see Papyrus doing is accidentally writing in Wingdings but that's it, an habit like that stays on the body