#outsider is full of secrets :)

[purrfectlycontent]

thinking about all those years ivan spent learning about boundaries and how to maintain healthy relationships but then throwing that away (and, subsequently, his relationship with till) during round 6 by initiating that kiss

comic translations by @/whatafruit on twitter x (except for the last two, those are mine)

[sylvaneagle]

teeheehee goodtimewithscar in a silly little outfit (vaguely inspired by @aresonist and i decided i would credit them. so i will. tag be upon ye)

[yourlokalescholar]

So. That secret keeper guy looks pretty cool huh?

[projectjasper]

honestly shocking that people complain about romcom bls when we've literally still never had a classic mutual pining friends to lovers situation with the leads

[presiding]

I'm not a new follower and I've been here long enough but i do have a relatively bad memory

So I've wanted to ask, what's your opinion on "Dishonored: death of the outsider"?

Right now I'm replaying Dishonored games not in the release order, i already finished DH2 and started Daud dlcs. Maybe I'll go for vanilla DH later

But thoughts about going through death of the outsider again makes me feel something that i can't explain... 😬

It has some interesting ideas but antagonists are underused. Locations repeat a lot. And Billie herself deserved SO much better than whatever is going on with her character

I'm genuinely debating if i should revisit *this* one or pretend that DH2 is the last game. I know that some people love DOTO but i can't find strength in me

love to chat about death of the outsider, ty for the ask!

i feel your pain. it's the one game i struggle to revisit. but! i was thinking about your points and how DotO has the feel of budget cuts.

it's been about a year since my last DotO post - so, essay time -

a measured response to common DotO criticisms

(the thousand bugs of dishonored 2 I had borne as I best could, but when doto ventured upon sidelining billie and retconning daud's arc I vowed revenge*

*can't resist a cask of amontillado joke

criticism is easy and creation is hard, so, if this isn't the type of response you wanted, you can read my other DotO posts:

how i'd write death of the outsider

that post i did after trying to play doto a third time and couldn't make it past the opening scene (you might like my tags on this re: your comment "makes me feel something i can't explain")

billie lurk as a nonprotagonist & misogynoir (more on this below...)

gonna leapfrog off your comments cause I agree!

antagonists are underused/locations repeat a lot.

who is steering the boat?

let's start up at the top; everything stems from there.

DotO was caught up in ownership/transition issues. here's an article about harvey smith and raphael colantanio at that time. if you didnt know, colantonio is the main founder of arkane (semi-related but just for fun look his appearance up then go through arkane's protags and tell me what you notice...).

quote from harvey smith re: DotO -

���Then, just as I move back, [Colantonio is] announcing that he’s leaving. Going forward, I’ll focus more and more on the Austin studio and what we’re going to do there. Death of the Outsider is my wrapping up with the guys in Lyon – the first half of that we planned together while I was living there, but the second half was worked on while I was living in Austin. I’ve been communicating with them through video conferences and stuff, so they carry a lot of the load of the second half of it.”

so the founder jumped ship and the co-creative director has to step away from his usual position (over to sinking ship Austin). meanwhile, DotO is still in development. i'm a big believer in people making art, and not companies (even in this article Smith acknowledges much of their "secret sauce" can be traceable to specific devs but i digress)

$$$ kaching - some speculation

on the note of founders - past this point in arkane's history (ie. the main founder stepping back), arkane would have been being primed for sale. this translates to high scrutiny on project expenditure (such as hiring cheaper early career staff, hiring less workers, denying your best staff raises causing them to leave and hiring cheaper workers in their place, etc) to make the company's EBITDA look more appealing to buyers (briefly, its the piece of paper that proves you're profitable). based on speculative timelines, from a purely $ perspective within the first year of dh2 being released is when you'd be looking to slim down your capitalised expenditure (aka: cutting staff while the revenue is at a peak to make number go brr and make your company look like a better investment) because to maximise the profit of a company's sale, you really have a great track record for a few years.

this is purely speculation based on timelines. companies are very careful to hide when they're doing this, ideally they want ~3 years of a great track record (and staff that will keep working their hardest).

big goals and no money

DotO was meant to be a two-part DLC like the Dh1 DLCs, so shout out to what could have been made if their original pitch had worked.

On locations & antagonists & budget - this dev's site discusses the Conservatory level in game AND specifies it was budget constraints being the reason for cutting off traversable area from that mission. Great link for comparing the original level & the DotO version, especially re: your point about reused assets/levels.

We could pick other examples here but this post is already long so -

Billie herself deserved SO much better than whatever is going on with her character

i would forgive this game anything if there was any good billie storywriting.

:')

its never just the writers

after revisiting articles to fact-check for this essay, i've seen a lot of articles blaming writers by name (you didn't do this anon which i love <3)

games are made by teams, and decision making is generally done top-down, so blaming individual contributors is shit. 1) writer's pay isn't good enough to cop this kind of abuse. 2) it's rarely in their control - you can write a beautiful scene only to have that level cut due to costs (etc), and then you need to work out how to make the story make sense. ideation & decision-making are separate and i guess 'this idea was [X]'s' should not be mistaken for 'this is the fault of [X]'s.'

on hiring fans (& imm-sim writing strategies)

the new writers [...] already had an idea of the world, as they’d seen it from the outside, as fans. “These are all people that knew this world we had created and they took it as canonical, as the gospel. Whereas, for us, it was bits and pieces we’d made up along the way.”

as someone who used to hire writers, and i promise this isn't in bad faith: don't hire fans unless your priority is cost then, sure, fans are likely to put in overtime (and not be in a position in their career where they can ask for higher remuneration - they'll pay the passion tax to be involved).

writers (esp new career writers) have to be open to receiving feedback assuming healthy/functional processes, and being a fan makes that harder because you care more. and, as a fan, you know what loose ends exist and that's where you'll naturally jump to, even though writers should start with target audience and branding, and build from there. if i expand on this i'll get offtopic so let's keep going!

DotO feels lifeless because it doesn't add anything to the DH universe, it only takes away by closing storylines without the satisfaction of closure. sure, stuff was added - the cult subplot, locations, some NPCs/enemies, etc. but they feel like part of the objectives, not part of the dishonored universe. you can feel the decision-making process when you play: there's a feeling that the priority was to finish the assets required for missions, instead of writing a story that feels immersive.

compared to standard videogame writing, where you can generally get away with "everything you touch and read relates to your objectives as the protagonist", as an imm-sim writer, you need to focus on:

how does this text build the universe so that the player feels like they're only seeing a small part of the world?

of course - this is difficult with budget/time concerns. i've said it before but this is part of why we rarely have games as rich as dishonored 1 & 2, because imm-sim design philosophy flies against the current videogame industry trends of microtransactions & cheap-to-make addictive mobile games. given a tight budget you focus on the high level story, but player immersion is a function of details.

most likely, dh2 was the end of an era. typing that out makes me sad.

what did the devs say about writing billie

*breathes deeply*

the death of the outsider protag was originally pitched as being about a regular human, someone not related to emily and corvo but instead an overseer or a brigmore witch. daud was also pitched.

this could have worked! really cool to have a nobody, or a heretic, or an overseer, be involved with the death of a god. and i've mentioned before that storywise DotO's protag could have been anyone (i think i made a joke about wyman? hah) and wouldn't change the story much, bar some daud bits.

quote from the same article:

eventually Arkane settled on Billie Lurk, Emily's companion from Dishonored 2. [...] Bakaba tells me that because Billie had already received her redemption arc in Dishonored 2, Death Of The Outsider's story could be about something more than that.

welp.

so there's two things here - a redemption arc claim, and DotO's actual story.

in addition to not being the first pick, the view was that billie's story was over. i question the 'redemption arc' claim - sure, billie helps the protag in dh2 but after her confession, if you tell her she's changed, she brushes it off and you part awkwardly without forgiving her... does that count? if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound? if a character redeems themselves but the story never tells you, are they redeemed?

billie's role in dh2 isn't really that different to the dlcs, where she follows you around being Mr Exposition while withholding a LOT of information that could have actually helped the protag. given DotO's plot, going after the killer who shaped her doesn't scream 'reformed' either. ludonarratively speaking, the lack of chaos implies billie never changed from being a callous killer - which i'm not against, it would have been a cool story.

and! contrast this with daud who already had his redemption arc!

When first conceptualising Death Of The Outsider in around 2014, Smith and Duval knew they wanted two things: Billie Lurk being used to get to The Outsider himself, and closure for Dishonored villain (and later ally) Daud.

in the two DLCs, as we know, he comes to realise his actions sucked, and as the player you actively make things right (related: my post about ludonarrative dissonance in dh2). so if billie had "already received her redemption arc", why was this another daud story?

imo this isn't a budget issue but a misogynoir issue. "we want this story to be not about the protagonist so any random NPC will do, how about we go with billie lurk and get a black woman as a dishonored protag?" this logic, which is what i'm reading of the above two quotes, feels frustratingly tokenistic when she's an established character with a rich background. it's an example of surface level diversity because DotO is not about her by arkane's own admission. it's a similar vibe to the companies who say they have a diverse team but you check their staff page and all the people of colour have 'assistant' in their title and the board is all white, so it's not people of colour who are driving the business. maybe this was entirely by accident but these accidents add up to systematic failure - billie gets her own game but never her own story. it feels like she got assigned the caretaker role for these two guys. great.

for fairness, let's compare to dh2. corvo & emily are relatively hands-off protags in terms of their ongoing thoughts about their surroundings and the lore placement about them specifically is sparse, and this style continues in DotO. the issue is the core narrative: corvo & emily are both the protagonists of their story in the sense that dh2's story reflects their goals ("take back what's yours"), whereas Billie is an established character who has arguably little reason to go along with each mission. worse, the main plotline she's literally forced into going along with. in the opening scene billie gets assaulted and still helps the guy who assaulted her.

fundamentally, DotO's narrative is not about billie but about daud and the outsider, and this article makes clear that was by design.

whats the takeaway

DotO is the weakest entry in the Dishonored series for most people, and blaming budget & a corporate changeover makes me feel... uh well it doesn't really help me tbh but your mileage may vary. it does interest me to think about what we could have had!

for me, my opinion is that if writing billie was a priority (link to my own post where i describe the feeling of playing doto as someone interested in billie) arkane would have made it a priority, even amidst constraints. billie's redemption arc was not resolved imo, and putting her in a game without a chaos system feels like as much a backwards slide for her as daud's plotline to kill the outsider was for his arc.

we absolutely 🤝 on not being in a rush to play the game again.

on the upside. dishonored 2 is a really wonderful game and i love it very much.

[itsabirbe]

and its here! not the most proud of E!Owens hair but its fiiinnee.

(this was made before hooks death during the kidnapping so pirate owens just kinda bored)

[wasabikitcat]

I think it's interesting how Spamton and Jevil don't have dialogue portraits despite being pretty important characters. I might be looking too far into it, but I kinda wonder if the implication is meant to be that they were never meant to be important characters, they were initially just regular NPCs that stumbled into something they weren't supposed to. This is more noticeable with Spamton, since we see multiple other Addisons that also don't have dialogue portraits, and he was supposedly just like them at first, so it makes sense he wouldn't have a dialogue portrait in that case. This might be why Spamton and Jevil had such negative consequences for whatever happened to them; maybe bad things happen when a background NPC is forced into a role they weren't meant for against their will. They are anomalies, glitches in the program, and glitches tend to cause instability. It only makes sense that this would cause major psychological (and some implied physical) instability to the characters affected by the glitch.

[coronangelic1]

christmas is always so shit for me. another year of constant fights! another year of giving and receiving last minute gifts to / from someone who i havent seen in years! another year of ungrateful parents!

[spookyfemboy]

Don't tell anyone about this band 👀

[lemongogo]

[sonics-loyal-dog-muttski]

the Archie Werehog arc is SO superior for actually doing something beyond a shallow reskin transformation for Sonic, and actually leaning into the whole WEREWOLF thing. I remember reading those issues and losing my mind bc it was literally everything I had ever hoped for ever since I had played Unleashed. bc I mean like. He’s running on all fours he’s going AWOOOOO and he’s got a growling and more aggressive voice and effect (even if he’s not intending it). and ur gonna tell me ‘nah he just Wasn’t Affected by the Dark Gaia energy even though he fucking transformed and got a direct fucking exposure’. not even A LITTLE different??? ur telling me he’s not even a little feral, it doesn’t even have to be NEGATIVE man just let him start barking. Archie version said ‘yuuuuuup he went fucking UNLEASHED for REAL this time’. I mean it started to lean further into the game version where the Werehog just made him look different and not fast anymore and nothing else but those first few issues were fun (also the Wise Old Mystic Man teaching Sonic the art of Honing His Energy or whatever was lame imo. They should have struggled with it longer). If nothing else I feel like in any version Sonic should have been written to be a little more upset and out of his element to have TOTALLY lost his speed, yknow the thing he bases his whole outlook on. I don’t want it need the whole thing to be like that just yknow. sprinkle some inner conflict in there instead of only at the beginning and end

[ratatatastic]

when i say that forsblad ring picture has law firm vibes this is what i mean

[antimony-ore]

You guys ever wonder if you summoned a demon trying to do love magic in middle school or did they already cleanse the internet of all the truly occult by the time you got to it?

[krispiecake]

you know when you get those adverts for like protein shake meal replacement bullshit products and people say shit like ‘im just so busy with work i never have the time for breakfast or lunch or dinner or snacks, so this horrible brown powder milkshake is a huge life TIMEsaver!’ and ‘its so convenient! i just swallow a glass of tasteless powder to meet my basic vitamin needs and then i have all the time my employer wants from me!’ and then you have to keep watching the unskippable ad only for the person not to become immediately radicalised by what they were just forced to say. I genuinely cannot fathom how people write these scripts, say them out loud, film these videos, edit them and publish them and nobody involved in that process is going insane. are you even listening? are you reading those words? cant you see the exploitation of workers is forcing you to stop performing even the most necessary of tasks like eating real food? and cant you see we have been so convinced that is normal that there are entire businesses and ad campaigns based on it?

food, actual real good normal food, is a human right, but also part of your culture, your family, your community. Its a source of joy, health, fun, love and creativity. please dont let these fucked up companies convince you its just time that could be better spent slaving away for the rich monsters that hold your contract.

[loveoaths]

since we are all in agreement that zabraks are like, cat-lizard-alien people, then they should have an aversion to water (or some kind of chemical) due to their biology, and an affinity for a different chemical, like how cats love wool and sheep because wool is full of lanolin, an oil produced by nursing cats that induces nursing behavior in kittens and adult cats alike.

adult zabraks are reduced to kittens when they smell a certain kind of fabric/a certain alien species that naturally produces lanolin/its space equivalent. because in a galaxy that large, it has to be possible. even funnier if iridonia is home to a second native alien species that evolved to produce space-lanolin so ancient zabraks didn’t eat them.

AKA… maul/the zabrak of your choice doing this:

[introspectivememories]

For your mess is mine who are the people Bernard is close with? Is it people who were in the cult and are now out? Is it the groups of guys we saw in one panel? And what do they know more about than Tim?

okay first of all, thank you so much for the ask!!! i'm always sooo fucking excited to talk about these fics even if haven't written a sentence in like a month.

who are the people Bernard is close with? Is it people who were in the cult and are now out? Is it the groups of guys we saw in one panel?

in mess is mine, i just made up new friends for bear. we never really see him hang out with anybody and he is soooo isolated compared to tim. i didn't really like those 3 guys we saw in urban legends so i just... made up new ones! and bear deserves to have people who love him and take care of him.

so if you've been on my page for long enough, you know i have like a reoccurring oc?, i guess you could call it, called mori. he's in like everything i write, when i want someone connected to bear. alongside mori, there's khadija, chinna, and jam. but i'm still developing those characters.

after writing data analyst!bernard, i've been playing with the idea of putting jimmy and tyrone in there too. but i know my own strengths and putting that many characters means a lot of them are gonna get sidelined. (maybe i can put them in as a throwaway line? much to think about.)

i know that him being isolated is probably what made him so susceptible to the cult in the first place, but isn't there something so real about watching your friend slowly destroy themselves? isn't there something so tragic about being able to do nothing but pick up the pieces after each event? of wanting him to stop hurting himself but it seems like he doesn't know how to live unless he's hurting? mori, chinna, 'dija, and jam love bear, but it's not enough.

And what do they know more about than Tim?

everything. in urban legends, they've just started reconnecting. and i've taken that to mean that there was no contact after the shooting. so if we do the math, let's say they were both 16/17 during war games and i've always hc both of them as being around 21 when they meet up again, that's about 4-5 years that tim has missed. people change a lot in just 1 year! to miss around 5??? yeah tim barely knows this man anymore.

and yeah, bear still smiles the same and he still makes outlandish conspiracy theories but bear is so unfamiliar to tim these days. he might as well be a different person. and i think for tim, who is having all these new feelings at seeing bear again, would feel uncomfortable. where is his bear who laughed with his mouth open? where is his bear who didn't have scars on his arms and back? where is his bear who took up the whole room with his personality? tim doesn't know.

the story takes place in the hospital after the attempted sacrifice as tim deals with bear's friends, who are complete strangers to him, just knowing exactly what to do while he fumbles around. one of the scenes that i first wrote was tim sitting in the waiting area struggling to fill out the paperwork. and then bear's friends come in and do it effortlessly.

i hope this answers your questions!! i feel like i got so excited talking about this, it came out a little incoherent lol.