#orestes and aegisthus

[katerinaaqu]

Others: Hahaha Hollywood has the best catchphrases of cheeky or sneering heroes

Aeschylus: *Orestes to Clytemnestra over the body of Aegisthus like a hunter over a deer*

Orestes: I was looking for you! This one here has had enough already!

(Translation by me)

Like...DUDE! 😆👌🏻 "he has had enough"! Dude! And gets even better!

Clytemnestra: Oh no, my beloved Aegisthus! You have been slain so violently!

Orestes: Oh, you love this man? Then you will lie in the same tomb together so death will never do you part!

(Translation by me)

Dunno about you guys but THIS is the real stuff! Don't tell me you don't imagine Orestes pointing at the body nonchalant while saying that!

[katerinaaqu]

I don't remember the source in which it says that Agamemnon and Menelaus killed Atreus can you please remind me? Thanks in advance!

But boy oh boy you are up for something here! Yeah, the whole story sounds so intriguing and messed up in so many different ways and not just about the story of the trail of murders and such!

Taking it from where you left it; the possibility of Aegisthus looking insanely like Agamemnon for example makes you think when Clytemnestra also fell in love with him (she says she loved him in Oresteia) and in a way it almost felt like her vengeance in one twisted way "replaces her husband" in her life. As if she tries to press a "replay button" or something as if going back before the hatred erupted.

Or even more tragic; Orestes murdering Aegisthus so violently and in cold blood if Aegisthus looked like his father (especially his father from like decades ago given how Aegisthus was younger potentially).

Aegisthus could potentially look like the father he potentially vaguely remembered all those years back in Aulis before his whole family was torn apart!

In one way Orestes with your trail of thinking killed BOTH his parents visually at that time (one actual parent and one that potentially looked like him) and BOTH versions are connected to a past that used to be happy or at least not dysfunctional and now turned into something monstrous and tragic!

That could potentially make the madness of Orestes even deeper than it could be and you are so right in a way I don't think that the fact that Thyestes and Agamemnon being twins according to that line of narrative is a coincidence or that Thyestes was born out of incest with Thyestes's daughter. I think as you say it was indeed left to be assumed that Thyestes was supposed to look like Agamemnon and/or Menelaus in this one!

Sometimes I think about how Aegisthus must look so much Agamemnon and Menelaus because their fathers were twins. About how Atreus raised Aegisthus alongside his own sons. How Aegisthus murdered him because Thyestes told him despite his horror and disgust to find out that his mother was also his sister because Thyestes raped his own daughter. How Aegisthus was only born to kill Atreus. Aegisthus kills his own father and yet doesn't. And in a similar but not at all similar way, Agamemnon and Menelaus kill their own father when they take Mycenae back from Thyestes.

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

IT'S 11:30 PM BUT I AM HAVING THOUGHTS

THOUGHTS ABOUT APOLLO AND ORESTES

I HAVE NOT READ THE ORESTIEA BUT DW I HAVE IT AND I'M GONNA READ IT AFTER THE ILIAD

I MAY HAVE MORE THOUGHTS AFTER THAT WE SHALL SEE

I made my Apollo & Cassandra post a while back so now it's time for Orestes :)

just. ahhhh. how do i begin.

at the beginning i guess.

Orestes is a young child when he's smuggled out of Argos. By his sister to keep him safe when their father is murdered by their mother. He's a young boy exiled from his home because of the actions of a vengeful queen.

Years later, he receives a mission from Apollo - kill his mother to avenge his father. And he does just that.

Apollo was a young god, not even born yet, when he was exiled from the very earth by a vengeful queen. His mother fought and ran to find a place to deliver him and his own sister to safety. In his mother's honor, he goes out of his way to kill those who dare to harm her - Python and Tityus, to name a few.

The parallels get me okay? Even if it's not a deadringer, they are sill there.

Apollo defends his mother while Orestes kills his.

Orestes was ordered to kill his mother while Apollo murdered others for Leto on his own accord.

And what REALLY gets me is their different motivations in this situation - Orestes believes he's avenging his father, the man he never quite knew. Apollo meanwhile wouldn't loose sleep over Agamemnon's death.

Apollo wasn't aiming to avenge Agamemnon. He was avenging Cassandra.

But he couldn't tell Orestes that, now could he? After all, what was a mere slave girl from Troy to Orestes? Especially since he didn't know her at all.

Avenging Cassandra wouldn't be enough to convince Orestes to commit matricide. So Apollo uses Agamemnon's death as incentive for Orestes.

And it works. Apollo's goals are met - Clytemnestra and Aegisthus are killed, and Cassandra's soul can rest easy now in Elysium.

He could cut his losses and leave Orestes to the Furies. He no longer has anything to do with this.

But Apollo stays with Orestes. He helps him rest in Delphi before getting him a headstart to Athens. He defends him in court from the Furies, in front of the jury of Athenians and Athena herself. He puts himself firmly on Orestes's side and uses whatever means necessary to get him off the hook.

And if that means manipulating the city of Athens via their sexist ideologies? It's free real estate. When you're in court, you use whatever you can to help your client.

And Apollo wins. Orestes is free to go, and the curse of the House of Atreus is gone for good.

just. vibrating from this. the similarities between Apollo & Orestes in their youth that diverges in stark ways. How Apollo could have dropped Orestes the moment his own goal was finished, but chose not too - he chose to take it a step farther and get rid of that curse for good. So Orestes and his family could live in peace.

When I first heard about the Oresteia, and what Apollo says to free Orestes, I had a hard time reconciling it. Apollo just didn't give off those sexist vibes to me (as a matter of facts, very few gods do - after all, they appear how they want when they want. gender is meaningless to gods.).

But I did some digging. Some thinking. And really, Apollo is quite in-character during the trial - he's in Lawyer Mode. He manipulates the system to his advantage as well as the Athenian citizens with their misogynistic beliefs.

Because think about it. Apollo uses the argument, in brief terms, that a mother has no claim on the child because they are only for making babies. This gets half of the Athenian jury to immediately side with Orestes.

Is this a bullshit argument? Absolutely. But sometimes a bullshit argument gets your client out of trouble and that's the job of a lawyer - to help their client.

For a closing statement, I also want to say that I don't think Apollo himself believes that sexist opinion. After all, Leto was the one running around the world to find a safe place to deliver him and Artemis - Zeus did very little to help.

It was his mom who did all the work, and Apollo is very clearly a mama's boy.

Plus, 99.9% of the people Apollo hangs out with are women. Leto, Artemis, the Muses, Athena, Hecate, Aphrodite, ect ect

There's no way he actually buys that argument. He just used it to gaslight the very-sexist Athenians into voting in Orestes's favor because godsdammit that curse needs to go!

thank you for coming to my TEDTalk. I have feelings. goodnight now. happy new year. i shall post a snippet of a storyboard idea for my mythology series tomorrow that features apollo & orestes because I HAVE FEELINGS.

[hermesmoly]

for the House of Agamemnon, hesitation was a form of love

[tangoboheme]

Clytemnestra and Aegisthus

[incorrecthomer]

Aegisthus,walking into a messy living room: What’s going on here? Clytemnestra: Teenage rebellion Aegisthus: Fuck yeah, stick it to the old people Clytemnestra: We’re the old people Aegisthus: You guys better clean uP THIS MESS-

[notaclassicist]

teehee *spends 3 hours overdetailing an outline to my wild west oresteia/post-troy retelling knowing full damn well i won't be writing a single sentence of prose for it until i unearth the outline from my drafts in 4 years' time*

[amostcuriousmythicist]

The Infant Sons of Cassandra and Agamemnon

There is the grave of Atreus, along with the graves of such as returned with Agamemnon from Troy, and were murdered by Aegisthus after he had given them a banquet. As for the tomb of Cassandra, it is claimed by the Lacedaemonians who dwell around Amyclae. Agamemnon has his tomb, and so has Eurymedon the charioteer, while another is shared by Teledamus and Pelops, twin sons, they say, of Cassandra whom while yet babies Aegisthus slew after their parents.

Pausanias 2.16.6-7

[mysterious-secret-garden]

Auguste-Hyacinthe Debay - Aegisthus believing he discovered the body of the dead Orestes, discovers that of Clytemnestra, 1823.

[luminouslumity]

Watch "Why Are So Many People Cooking Their Kids? The FULL Curse On The House of Atreus In Greek Mythology" on YouTube

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I would love an entire series on the whole House of Atreus! This family is so messed up, but it's so fascinating too!

[katerinaaqu]

Okay an Agamemnon-friendly post so you are warned! The post is inspired by another made by @hermesmoly

As you know the sources that absolutely HATE Agamemnon speak among others on traditions rescued or invented by post-homeric sources that Agamemnon killed the husband and children of Clytemnestra to have her as a wife. Some of it I memorize it to my mini-analysis here:

And of course Tyndareus would have absolutely no clue who killed them lol 😂 like "oh what do you know! They are dead. Hey you! You are tall and handsome have my daughter for wife!" And then Menelaus with Tyndareus and the Spartan army helps Agamemnon to take Mycenae back from Aegisthus.

Wait, Aegisthus who? Yup we know Aegisthus who was their cousin and was the reason they got exiled in the first place. His coup was reversed and then Agamemnon established himself back to authority and dedicated himself to expanding Mycenaean influence and area till he made it the most powerful kingdom in Greece. But Aegisthus came back; years later he became Clytemnestra's lover and the two of them conspired the murder of Agamemnon and after they succeeded they ruled for years till Orestes took his revenge.

Aegisthus is my proof not to support the idea that Agamemnon slaughtered Clytemnestra's family to get to marry her. Even if one can say he was desperate to get back to power, even if someone says he lost it for some reason and wanted to get revenge quickly, even if we say that no one ever knew (and in Eurypedes it is not even the case! Apparently every interested party knew haha) I don't think it is plausible to say he conspired for the murder of the family of Clytemnestra. He did many things and as I mention to the analysis he doesn't seem meant to be a pleasant character but no I am not convinced it is plausible he conspired or executed the murder of Clytemnestra's family.

The dude didn't even plan the assassination of Aegisthus who was the reason to exile him!

Food for thought

[my-burnt-city]

i still have not figured out how i feel about this

but i guess it doesn't matter too much, when i know exactly how completely delighted i am by this

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

having Cassandra and Apollo thoughts...

thoughts about how she still calls Apollo "the god I love", even after the curse. how he gifted not just her, but her twin with the gift of prophecy. he loved both of them. they loved him.

I know people claim Athena avenged Cassandra's rape at the hands of Ajax but tbh that wasn't Athena avenging Cassandra - that was Athena punishing Ajax for violating the sanctity of her temple.

if Cassandra hadn't been inside Athena's temple, Ajax would have gotten away with it. and in a way, he did anyway.

and then when you think about Cassandra's death...the one to avenge her is the god she loves. Apollo. he cursed her, yes. but he still loved her too.

because think about it. apollo did not give a flying fuck about Agamemnon. if it was just Agamemnon who died, Apollo would have thrown a party.

but Cassandra was also killed. someone Apollo loves, and a favored priestess.

...remember what happened to Agamemnon when he insulted a priest of Apollo? a plague fell on the Achaeans.

and when Cassandra is killed...Apollo finds a way to make her murders pay the price. He gets Orestes to kill his own mother to avenge Cassandra.

frankly, I love them. I want more of them. This messy, complicated relationship with so much more meaning than "apollo got mad because she wouldn't sleep with him". Even with the cursory view I have, I can see there is so much more there.

Gods, I need to get my hands on those primary sources so I can obsessively read about them in full.

If anybody has recommendations on which primary sources have Cassandra and Apollo please tell me

I am begging you.

RAWRRAWRARWR I LOVE THEM👀

I also have thoughts about Apollo and Orestes but that's for another time

[measureformeasure]

shakes head. they don't even know about tgirl aegisthus

[agnesandhilda]

telemachus and orestes are the same guy in reverse but somehow orestes is the more sympathetic one

[lalounia]

Why do I have no recollection of drawing this?!?!

It's Aegisthus noting that Philebe (Orestes) is not cutting the sacrifice up like they do in the region he claims to be from and Pylades offering to smash a plate on the back Aegisthus's head (Orestes is not convinced by the idea).

Just teenagers being teenagers I guess ahahaha