#only to have it all negated by 15x20

[readinginthereadyroom]

— Witch’s Canyon (Supernatural #2), by Jeffrey J. Mariotte

just. I CANNOT WITH THIS.

so the premise here is that dean is faking being stupid (about how the grand canyon was formed) in order to tease sam. and for a minute sam falls for it.

and sam’s knee-jerk reaction is to blame it on john. that he messed up dean’s education so badly. so fundamentally. that dean’s utmost interior self is damaged beyond repair.

which means we’re talking about more than school here. we’re talking about the fundamental building blocks of a person. a soul, if you will. which plato defined as the combination of intellect, emotion, and needs. aka the head and the heart and the body.

intellect = standard k-12 education

woefully lacking. I’m not sure if we ever learn how many total schools sam and dean attend (likely different amounts), but the lack of stable education would have a lasting negative impact on their ability to learn.

case in point: dean. he’s a high school dropout. he consistently self-deprecates (spn book #2). and he doesn’t consider himself as smart as either sam or john.

emotion = emotional development

I’m only mid-s3 on my rewatch but I can name some pretty bad instances of john not meeting (or modeling) sam and dean’s emotional needs.

he misses holidays (spn 3x08), he pits the boys against each other, he’s manipulative, he keeps secrets. oh and how about the big one—he tells dean to MURDER HIS BROTHER if/when he goes demon blood evil (spn 2x01).

needs = basic care of a child

not gonna mince words here. john is homeless. by choice. he stays at motels or in the car or couch surfs—and he forces sam and dean to as well.

and since john is too obsessed with hunting, that means dean becomes sam’s primary caregiver. by default. because there is no one else. dean feeds sam, makes sure he is entertained, that he gets to school. that they have enough money (and all that implies).

which means that dean doesn’t have a primary caregiver. his very basic needs of food and shelter are not met. he suffers so sam doesn’t have to.

and then there’s the survivalist hunter training. memorizing lore, killing monsters, wielding weapons. it’s the antithesis of how to build a soul. I’m not even that surprised that sam thinks dean is damaged. he’s so lucky that he isn’t.

and it’s really because of dean that sam is as well-adjusted as he is. how he made it thru 4 years of college—not the courses or the tests, but just being a normal guy. who makes friends. who has a girlfriend. who no one ever questions about his past. because why would joe-schmo sam even have a past worth wondering about? he’s just like everyone else.

but the thing is. doesn’t cas tell dean that his soul is beautiful at some point? the righteous man and all that. the implication being that it’s because he’s an arch-angel’s true vessel that his soul is so pure and wonderful.

but what if... what if he’s not the righteous man by only birthright? what if his soul only shines so brightly because it was destroyed? john ground dean into dust under his author/father/god heel. but dean just stood up, dusted off the shards, and kintsugi-ed himself back together.

dean took all his broken pieces and found ways to repair them. took the time and got his GED. had bobby and sam to care about him. turned the impala into a home. lined himself in gold and silver and platinum mortar.

and that is what cas saw when he lifted dean from perdition. what ultimately made him fall (and fall in love). if dean was born to be the righteous man. born for a purpose. then in order to fulfill that fate he first had to be broken. and it was in the breaking and the repair that dean crafted himself a brand new soul. a better one.

but no one saw. no one but cas.

because cas has a crack in his chassis. he’s been repeatedly grace-lobotomized. he’s different and he knows it. cas took one look at dean’s soul and understood that it was a template. that he could repair, even transform, his grace. piece himself back together better than before.

only first he’ll have to “break” himself further. run away from his author/father/god (who also happens to be thee biblical god). and leap or fall. depending on your pov.

and in so doing cas invented free will. pledged himself to humanity. to an inevitable human life. to dean.

and then spn 15x20 happened. >:|

[quillquiver]

So my takeaway from Misha’s panel:

Maybe just the quality of the feed I was seeing, but he seemed genuinely emotional - rightly so, but it kind of felt like we were all in the trenches together and that was really nice.

He didn’t read 15x19 and 15x20 because he wanted to experience them as an audience member, but later shared that watching Dean’s death scene (which was his fave of the episode) was incredibly upsetting because he kept thinking about Cas - “that’s Cas’s friend who’s dying”. That’s why he was crying.

We now have confirmation that Cas’s ending was not supposed to be in 15x18, but that COVID made he and the rest of the Winchesters’ found family being physically shown in Heaven impossible.

He literally said that Cas’s ending was originally not supposed to be what we got. 

It was also very very clear that he gave us as much as he felt he could. He explicitly mentioned not remembering whether or not he was allowed to share details about the original ending, then flipped and said “what are they gonna do? fire me?” and gave us that there was supposed to be a found family scene. In light of what he’d said earlier about Cas’s ending being different, I’m inclined to believe that either he doesn’t want to be the one to spill the beans first, or he isn’t allowed to. I’d guess it’s the latter.

He does not think that Cas’s death played into the bury your gays trope, firstly because Cas isn’t actually dead, but also because of the intent behind the scene. He essentially argued that Cas chose this for himself, and that his death was not meaningless (saved the Dean and the entire world). He finished with saying that he knows this is something we’ll probably come back to as we all continue to process the finale. 

(I love him, but only thing that negates bury your gays for me is the fact that Cas made it out alive, otherwise the self-sacrificing queer + dying = you do not get to live/have a happy ending = plays directly into the BYG trope. BYG was the only way queers managed to slip in rep during Hays Code-era Hollywood - that’s its origin story. It’s changed a little over the years but not by much, and Cas dying the way he did fits the Code to a T (not the explicit love confession part, but you know what I mean). Him coming back? Probably not, but yeah. It’s complex and I hope we all get to hash this out more.)

That he loved playing Casifer and Human!Cas but that regular Cas is his favourite just... broke me. It just broke me.

As always, he was extremely sweet, and he seemed genuinely concerned that the fandom was going to go away after all of this. 

He ended the panel with messages of praise and support to us, and that was suuuuper appreciated. 

[whateverthedragonswant]

Did Dean love Cas back? If so, did Cas know he was loved back?

This is my personal take on the story they’ve been presenting/telling for several seasons for these two characters. I can’t speak for the show, the writers, the actors, etc, obviously but as a viewer/the audience, this is what I saw being presented. Season 15 made me sit up and take notice and a rewatch before the last 7 episodes aired and then a rewatch after 15x18 ended, definitely helped to clarify what I was seeing a little more. 

Just fyi, this is going to get a bit wordy.

So I know a lot of people have been asking these two questions since 15x20 finished airing and even for a minute, I asked myself because I wasn’t entirely sure, maybe I had been keeping the shipping goggles on during this last season, had too high hopes for Dean, wanted Dean, Cas, Sam, Eileen & Jack to drive off into the sunset together, or something. Maybe I was seeing something that simply wasn’t there (meaning the setup of Destiel, Saileen, Dean’s side of things, hell even Dean’s ending for himself). I mean, look at what happened with GoT (which we now know was due to crappy writing & those two chuckleheads with Star Wars in their eyes & their heads barely fitting through the door of the Microsoft Theater), we followed all of the clues, all of the breadcrumbs, and then poof! Arcs, nuked character & story arcs everywhere!

So, I thought maybe I had gotten it wrong with SPN this whole time. Or that maybe I had read too much into it a la GoT style. Or something. The anti-Destiel, anti-Dean, and anti-found family fandom discourse at the time certainly added to my doubt. But then as I went back to look over some of these scenes during the rewatches, I realized like a lot of others have, the answers really have been there all along. 

#1) Did Dean love Cas back?: short answer? yes. 

Long answer? Looking at the story they’ve set up since season 8... 

(for me personally, as a viewer, this was where I noticed a shift, they had moments from seasons 5-7 sure [I’ll still list some below, particularly season 6], and I’m not taking away from season 4 but for me, season 8 is where it becomes apparent that something is definitely different - which is interesting because I believe Jeremy Carver took over as showrunner at this point and he said something to the effect of that he wanted to dig deeper into the emotions of the characters because in the previous season the show had become buried under the lore a bit, the same Jeremy Carver who told Misha to act like a “jilted lover” in 9x06, just saying)

...the acting, the editing choices (including the music swells/choices)...absolutely. Regardless of how things happened in the finale, after Cas’ confession and that story line is dropped and there’s no resolution or follow through for Cas or Dean, it doesn’t negate the story they were telling from season 8 to season 15, not at all. Especially in season 15. Literally from the first episode of season 15, they turned the front burner on the Destiel stove up to ultra high and moved the DeanCas pot from the back burner right to that front one, and then set Sam and Eileen up on the next burner once she made a reappearance because not only were they working towards Sam’s ending/endgame but also showing the parallels between the brothers’ two love interests and possible endings/endgames. If you don’t believe me, that’s fine, don’t just take my word for it, go back to and take a look at: 

15x10 where Dean sees Garth living out his life, getting the happy ending, and his “I always thought I could be a good dancer” when seeing Garth and Bess dance through the window - which is also interesting considering what he told Garth in 9x12 about holding onto what made him happy, no matter what it looked like, and he sees in 15x10 that Garth took his advice and what it indeed looks like

15x08 where Dean talks to Sam about Eileen - Dean tells him if Sam was ever to settle down with someone and do the family thing that Eileen would be the best candidate, saying she gets him, she gets the two of them, she gets the hunting life - notice Dean’s line of “Look, man, I didn’t want to say anything because I’ve kind of been in a bad place and I didn’t want to jinx it or whatever” -- bad place? ah, Chuck is abound (bringing it back to the whole “real” theme/question) & he and Cas are not getting along, after Cas left in 15x03, saying it was time to move on & Dean didn’t stop him after saying some hurtful shit which you know he regrets the minute he says it (you see it right in the scene) - in 15x07, he notices that Sam & Eileen are chummy and having fun so is this the moment he’s in a bad place that he’s referring to? Considering his and Sam’s conversation in the hallway after Dean leaves the kitchen? And what was missing in 15x07? Cas (until he comes back while Dean is on a hunt) & it only took 1 episode for Dean to be out of his bad place enough that he doesn’t feel like he can jinx it anymore if he says something - he & Cas haven’t resolved things yet but Cas is back...yep

15x02/15x09 - Look at the parallel’ed conversation about what’s real & the assurances that they are/it is (15x02 for Dean & Cas, 15x09 for Sam & Eileen)

15x09 - Look at the framing in the shot in 15x09 in the first vision from the future that Chuck shows Sam - Sam and Eileen are seated in the library, doing research & being a little flirty - Cas brings in beers, Dean comes over to grab one & suggests a movie night, Eileen says she’ll make the popcorn - look at the wide shot of the four of them: Dean and Cas are standing next to each other in between Sam and Eileen who are mirroring each other’s positions while facing each other, Dean and Cas are facing forward/them but not facing each other because think of it this way, that’s where they’re headed right? supposedly? if they had defeated Chuck this way, there would have been no hiccup in the development of Sam and Eileen’s relationship moving forward (it still progressed regardless but Eileen might not have left due to what happens in this episode when Sam gives up their only weapon against Chuck), & Dean and Cas would not have had the conversation they did in 15x18 so there would be no “I love you” yet, both of these two clueless idiots would still be having feelings but not confirming them to each other - plus in this scene, Cas brings the beer & Eileen is making the popcorn...need I say more? Hell, if you want you can even go down the rabbit hole to see that as symbolism for Cas & Eileen bringing nourishment/something Dean & Sam need to the brothers’ lives and the result is this domesticity/life - hey, I’ve been down that hole, it was long, I’m back out again thankfully so I can get back to the main points of this post but if you want to go down it yourself, I”ll be more than happy to point you in its direction (if you do, you will never look at beer and popcorn the same way again when in the same room, I promise you that)

15x17 - when Sam is trying to talk Dean down, he says if Billie becomes the new God, then everyone will go back to where they belong, he mentions Eileen and Dean immediately turns to look at Cas, who looks up at him, before looking back at Sam

15x18 - Sam loses Eileen and is devastated but forces himself to focus on the other hunters & what’s happening, Dean loses Cas and is devastated but by 15x19 he forces himself to deal with the Chuck situation along with Sam & Jack - both Winchesters agree to give Chuck his ending if he’ll bring everyone back which he then of course turns down because he wants them to suffer

Dean loves Cas and at this point, in season 15, it’s more than brotherly or friendship or the love you have for the man in the trenches next to you. Those scenes in that last season were not meant to be read as two brothers fighting or even two best friends having a falling out, or a disagreement on how to execute a battle plan. How any GA missed it when they literally brought the story line to the forefront in 15 until it was so much up in their faces in 15x18 with Cas’ confession, and how some can still deny that “I love you’ as romantic (especially after being confirmed by Misha that it was), I’m not quite sure, but it was there all along. Same goes for Dean’s side of things and this is why:

If you notice, some common themes seem to come up during arguments between Dean & Cas that tend to reveal/get to the heart of what Dean is really angry at:

Trust - Dean is hurt when Cas doesn’t trust him - example: argument in 8x22 - “Because you didn’t trust me. You didn’t trust me?”; “You gotta trust me, man” in 6x20 and his surprise & hurt when Cas says “or what?” indicating that he’s not going to stop working with Crowley on their plan even though Dean is asking him to

Cas putting himself or any of them in danger - argument in 8x07 “Why didn’t you wait for me?”; when Cas kills Billie in 12x09, he’s angry at Cas in 12x10 and it’s because he’s worried about the “cosmic consequences” not because he actually feels that Cas is “stupid” or hating on Cas or was ungrateful that he saved them - he proves this again when Cas asks Jack to kill him temporarily in 15x13 so he can go to The Empty to talk to Ruby, telling Cas “you’re an idiot by the way” (also notice Dean’s pointed glare at Cas after he says this) - “Am I still an idiot?” “Well, yeah” because Cas put himself in danger yet again & Dean is not backing down on it though he now sees that Cas actually made a smart move & got the info they needed but it was too risky (plus and this could just be me but I also read it as Dean not wanting to go back to how things were between them after 15x03); Dean’s reaction to Cas killing Bel in 15x03, yes there’s an undercurrent of anger for Mary’s death from season 14 & finding out about Chuck manipulating everything but once again, Dean goes right to the heart of what he’s really angry with, Sam is hurting because he had to kill Rowena and once again, he feels that Cas made a decision that put all of them in danger and cost Rowena her life which then ended up hurting Sam; in 13x19 when Cas wants to go see the angels to see if they know where Gabriel is, Dean is against it at first but then relents and tells Cas “just don’t get dead again” & the way he says it, he means business

When Cas goes AWOL/ignores prayers and/or messages - so many times this has come up I can’t even keep count (in this post anyway) but I’ll give one good solid example: 8x22 - during that argument (which just a note, Dean’s whole “for what?” after Cas says “I’m sorry”, I know Dean wants him to realize what he did, maybe thinks he doesn’t really get why he should be sorry, but that’s such a line to use and the way he asks it, how could anyone not get a romantic read on Dean’s side of the convo in that one, idk if they planned that but hell yeah does it come across as a couple arguing, one spouse making the other practically grovel for forgiveness, then it’s followed up later by a scene of Cas shopping for supplies, goes so far as to buy Dean a porno mag [Dean’s version of flowers I guess], and then of course the pie showdown with the store clerk before Metatron interrupts - things that Dean likes - romantic read, I’m telling you)

Betrayal (being used) - Cas using their conversation in 6x20 to steal a hunter’s journal from Bobby’s house (I’m not saying it’s the only reason Cas talked to Dean but I’m looking at it from Dean’s side atm); Cas using the mix tape and conversation with Dean in 12x19 to steal the Colt to kill Dagon

This isn’t a theme but Dean tends to either yell, say hurtful shit, or give the silent treatment, which we know is par for the course with him as a character, and even though he and Sam do go through this cycle in their own arguments, in later seasons the silent treatment speaks louder for the arguments between Cas and Dean and is more emphasized (usually with Sam in the middle)

Not to mention Dean has been trying to share himself with Cas now for a while:

Mixtape from 12x19 - title says “Dean’s top 13 Zepp traxx”, not “Zepp’s top 13 tracks of all time”, not “Best of Led Zeppelin”, not “Mothership”, not “top 13 Zepp traxx” but “Dean’s top 13 Zepp traxx” - they are his 13 top favorite Zeppelin songs and he made the tape for Cas to listen to which is confirmed by him stating “it’s a gift, you keep those” when handing it back to Cas

Sharing movies he likes with Cas - mentions “Tombstone” in 13x06 that he made him watch, and it’s a western, something we get another confirmation for in this episode about how much Dean loves cowboys and the wild west, even in dialogue - this is Dean sharing a part of himself twofold

Trying to teach him how to pickup women/dating advice  - 12x12 “no this is good, we’ve been looking for teachable moments”; 9x03 “you had sex with April? Did you have protection?” “Cas gave it up to a reaper” (you may think, well how does that prove that Dean loves Cas, it still does, have you never seen a rom-com where one of the leads tries to hook up their best friend or other lead with other people & only realizes later they love them or is already in love with them but are convinced they can never be with them or best friend doesn’t see them that way or it’ll ruin their friendship? it’s a common trope/theme)

Talking to Cas about Mary when she returns and he doesn’t know how to speak to her (something that can also be discussed with a close friend, a brother, but knowing Dean as we do who doesn’t like to discuss his feelings all that much and how sacred the idea of Mary is to him before he really gets to know her, this is a big one)

The fact that Dean prays to him at all - another vulnerability that Dean is not a fan of in nature, but he does - at first, it was done to either signal to Cas about something happening or for certain uses/advantages/plans or asking for assistance, in later seasons (since season 8) it has become more of an emotional connection for Dean, a plea for where Cas might be, etc. It deepened after their time in Purgatory where Dean confirmed in dialogue that he prayed to Cas every night. He still does signal to Cas for things (like when Jack died in season 14) and asks for assistance (when Sam was dying in season 9), but overall there is more of a connection there, and we get to see it in real time with Dean’s prayer scene in 15x09 - also notice Dean’s prayer to Chuck in 13x01 was about Cas and those he and Sam lost, again involving Cas - prayer is specifically for Cas in the later seasons (the only other person they pray to is Jack and that’s mostly, if not all, Sam)

And need I really point out Dean’s whole grieving arc after Cas died from 13x01-13x05 and his sudden shift in mood in 13x06 when Cas is back?  

I have a whole list of moments that showcase Dean having feelings for Cas thanks to this crack project I’m working on. I’ll share that list in an upcoming post for anyone who wants to take a look at those scenes and get their own read on them. I get it, the show’s over, it doesn’t change anything, but at the same time, I think it’s interesting to go back and watch the story they were trying to tell before it all went to crap in the end. Yes, peeps, we’re not crazy. It was all there, for both Cas and Dean.

#2) Did Cas know he was loved?: short answer? yes. 

Long answer? I know a lot of people think Cas never knew how Dean felt about him or that he was loved back because it was never explicitly stated by Dean. I disagree, though. I know Cas deserved an explicit “I love you”, absolutely, especially after all that character has been through and all he has sacrificed, but he knew Dean loved him. He really did. I think Cas had accepted (or thought this was an inevitable truth at the time) that they would never become an actual item. Even though he wanted it, like he says in 15x18 “it’s something that I know I can never have”, he didn’t think it was actually something that would happen, whatever the reason. But saying that, I do not think it was the reason of Dean not loving him back or him not knowing how much Dean cared about him. And once again, looking at the story, the acting, the editing, and the dialogue leaves me without any doubt that Cas knew how important he was to Dean and not just as a brother or friend or comrade or fellow soldier. 

A great example is the “breakup scene” in 15x03 - the moment where Cas tells Dean “I think it’s time for me to move on” and looks back at Dean, almost hopeful Dean will stop him (which we know Dean doesn’t), before turning around and leaving. When they argue about this in Purgatory in 15x09, Cas tells Dean “but you didn’t stop me”. While it brings each of their issues to the forefront (Cas’ needing to be wanted for other than being useful and to stay, and Dean’s wanting him to stay and stop leaving them all of the time), let’s not forget how well Cas knows Dean. Not just from his words to Dean in 15x18 (though that showcases just how much he has been attuned to the inner workings of Dean Winchester for years now, which Cas even knowing where his knife was before that scene was reiterating that fact on a basic level), but also confirmed by dialogue throughout the seasons. On an emotional, spiritual and now even physical level. He has seen Dean’s reactions every time he has gotten angry with Cas, every time Cas has died. He knows. But he’s not going to push something on Dean that he’s not sure that Dean might not even know he wants, and he’s not going to give him an ultimatum (’if you don’t buck up and tell me how you really feel right now, i’m leaving you for good’). Not only would doing that be completely out of character for Cas, but that’s a surefire way for Dean to run in the other direction, his name changing to Denial Winchester forevermore. Cas’ love for Dean is unconditional and he loves him without fail, even when he’s angry or upset with Dean or hurt by him, and everything is about Dean. He sees how much his betrayals (or what is seen as a betrayal by Dean) hurts Dean. Cas isn’t stupid, he’s a tactician who has commanded a garrison of angels to fight heavenly battles. He knows, trust me. 

And for those who might say “Oh really, just how well does Cas know Dean?” Besides the obvious, let’s take a look:

Dean always talks about wins, how he needs them, how important they are to him - Cas: “I just wanted to come back with a win for you”

Cas knows how much Dean hates himself, how little he thinks of himself, even before 15x18 - Dean: “That’s the opposite of what I do but I’m not exactly a role model, you know?” Cas: “That’s not true” Dean looks at him as if he’s serious, realizes he is, rolls his eyes as he takes a bite and huffs out a laugh “yeah” because he knows better (but we & Cas all know who the real Dean is & we know better) -- even then he knew and was trying to counteract this damaging view Dean had of himself in just these small words

Cas: “Not everything is your responsibility” when Dean and he are arguing by the car after saving Kevin & Dean says he failed him - he could have easily said “no you didn’t” but instead he says the line above - we as the audience know Dean takes everything onto himself, even when it’s not his fault, even when there was nothing he could have done to prevent it, because this sadly is how he was conditioned (all of the middle fingers in the world for John Winchester, btw)

Cas: “You needed to remember it differently” - same conversation by the car, this is after Cas shows Dean what really happened in Purgatory - that’s a powerful statement - while it’s true, that’s one hell of an assumption, how did he know that Dean wasn’t referring to Cas letting go purposely and Dean still feels like he failed him since Cas didn’t want to come back? Simple, he knows Dean and that’s why he immediately sets his memory of that moment straight and ends it with “you can’t save everyone, my friend. Though you try” because he knows how Dean takes things on himself like mentioned above and how he couldn’t cope with failing Cas or failure in general so in his mind, Dean saw it as he and Cas getting separated rather than Cas pulling away

The moment Cas sets Dean straight on - Cas literally climbs up that slope with him, crawls right up to the portal, and grasps Dean’s hand once he’s inside the portal - at first, I was like “wait, I get that he was trying to keep Dean safe, that he couldn’t tell Dean he was going to stay, but why grasp his hand? Isn’t that more cruel to do to Dean when he finally yanks away?” and then it made sense, because Cas knew if he didn’t do that, Dean may have possibly stepped out of the portal to grab him/pull him in and he didn’t want that, he wanted Dean to get out of there, even down to grasping his hand before pushing it away and you see Dean is stunned, then the portal closes and takes Dean with it - he knew he had to go right up to the end to keep Dean in that portal, to make sure he got through (plus I think he just wanted to hold Dean’s hand one last time, I kid but you know you were thinking it, too)

There’s more moments but I’ll keep this short (you know, 3 pages instead of 30)

I might have missed a few things where maybe Misha talked about the confession scene differently, but as far as I know he talked about Cas’ words leading to saving the world (which he’s right about, it wasn’t just Cas’ words to Dean, go back and look at his goodbye dialogue with Jack in 15x18, with Sam in 15x17, his words literally set all three of them up in position to defeat Chuck) & that Dean was never supposed to respond right then, that it was too fast for Dean to process. That’s true and it also helps the show hit its aim with it’s open-ended ambiguous ending for Cas and the question his confession poses: does Dean love him back? They were able to explicitly confirm Cas’ side of things, the story they’ve been telling for him for seasons now, but do it in a way that it is turned into a final act of unconditional love for Dean, be a noble sacrifice, help Dean reach self-acceptance in time for the moment with Chuck in 15x19, help Sam & Jack, and done under circumstances that didn’t allow for Dean to fully process the enormity of what was being said to him or what he was being presented with. (I know there is a lot wrong with the way they did this due to the ending that happened but I’m talking purely story wise here for this post) But if you go back and look at the story throughout the seasons, it’s all right there. It may not be overt in that Dean never says the actual words to Cas “I love you” or that they ever got together but it’s all there.

As for the writers, TPTB, the cast...obviously, I can’t tell you what they really planned but watching Dean’s reactions, the way certain scenes read (especially in season 15), the framing, the editing choices, etc. - the story they’ve been telling is that Cas is in love with Dean and has been for some time, Dean has feelings for Cas but they never came to fruition (or as I prefer to say, never came up explicitly before 15x18), and Cas knew that Dean loved him. Just look at Cas’ reaction in 9x03 after he’s revived to Dean’s “Never do that again!” Sure, he’s confused due to him somehow coming back to life and not knowing how, but he sees how much it affects Dean and says “okay”. The exchange between Dean and Cas in 11x03 once Cas is freed from Rowena’s spell - I know a lot of people focus on the touching (and they should, it’s beautiful and very telling), but look at Cas’ expression as well once Dean has him sitting up. Yes, he’s weak, hurting, loves Dean here, but there’s something else there -- he knows.

It’s all right there. Dean loves Cas and Cas knew it.

[norahastuff]

Dabb turned the story from intense codependency to a family sitcom about three dads and their son. Its the reason why so many codependency lovers hate Dabb era and the reason why the finale makes zero sense. We were being promised a hopeful ending if not a happy one

I don’t know that I necessarily agree with the first half of your comment. I mean Dabb’s episodes tend to be comedic but that usually just makes the emotional punches hit harder. Think of 8x08 Hunter Heroici. That’s one of the funniest episodes of the series but then all of a sudden we’re hit with Dean recognising that Cas is struggling and their conversation where Cas admits he’s worried he might kill himself.

12x23 had some very funny moments but it was a bloodbath that ended with Dean on his knees beside Cas’ body. 13x01 was just exquisitely painful from beginning to end (in fact all of the first 5 episodes of s13 were.) And let’s not forget that while 14x20 had the truth spell with all it’s Stapler Queens and Sam loving Celine Dion revelations, it also had God manipulating Dean into killing Jack and Cas desperately trying to save him, only for him to have to watch him die right before his eyes anyway.

Those are just a few examples but honestly, a lot of the funniest episodes of the Dabb era (Scoobynatural excepted I guess) are also profoundly painful. I’ve got to say, it’s an approach I’ve always liked because they were usually woven together pretty well and it made both the funny and the emotional moments hit harder for me.

As for your second part, yeah I think I agree with you. There’s no doubt that the narrative shifted from an excessive focus on the codependency to more of a focus on family and how it wasn’t just the two of them anymore and how they could want and deserve more than that. I was thinking lately about why the finale seems so empty to me, even if you disregard the plot, and I think the obvious reason is that Dean, our emotional POV character, wasn’t shown to feel anything for anyone but his brother. And all he was allowed to want was his car.

If that’s the story you want to tell, tell it. It seems kind of unnecessary to put such a focus on family for so long (right up until 1 or 2 episodes before) only to then say, ok so ignore all that, none of that matters anymore. This is not to say that I think the finale shouldn’t have focused mainly on Sam and Dean, of course it should have, and of course the big emotional climax in that episode was always going to be between the two of them. However, you don’t need to negate everything that came in the story before that in order for that to be the case.

Also can I use this ask to clarify something else? When I talk about Dean’s previous reactions to Cas dying and him having nothing to say about losing him in the finale, I am in no way saying that we should have seen Dean spiral into a nihilistic depression. After everything that Cas said to him, it makes sense that Dean would want to keep going and try to be the person Cas saw him as still makes no earthly sense that he was yelling at God (who hated Cas) to bring him back but didn’t even try to nicely ask Jack the same thing.

But you know Dean could have just said that? That he wanted to be the person Cas sacrificed himself for. That shouldn’t have been buried subtext that we need to look at 15x18 and 15x19 to understand, because on the surface in 15x20 it seems like Cas doesn’t factor into Dean’s state of mind at all, and regardless of how you see their relationship, that’s just not true.

So yeah the TLDR of all that is that I do think the setup has been for a hopeful ending but honestly, I wouldn’t have minded either way as long as it was a sensical ending. That’s always where my bar was, and apparently that was still too high.

[seasonsofchange]

you say you will leave the spn fandom because of all the toxicity and then you go around and reblog stuff with your positivity shtick. that's being more than passive-agressive. and fake. i guess you're just not capable of expressing any opinion of your own except that you liked the finale. and you're obsessed with the winchesters. because fuck cas right?

Lol, okay. I just about had it. I'm gonna answer this one and then I'm gonna turn off the anon asks, close my inbox. Listen, I really don't need to justify myself to any of you for having an opinion, but here we are. Once you all read this, please do me a favor and block me or unfollow if you disagree or want to fight more. Firstly – I said that I'm thinking about staying of tumblr for a while, and in the tags I've mentioned that I'm thinking about blacklisting the Supernatural tag because of all the negativity and toxicity. In the end I didn't, because guess what – I don't come to tumblr only for Supernatural stuff.  Secondly – my positivity shtick? What the hell. I mentioned that in one tag (I actually had to go look for it), and it meant that I'm keeping the positive things I pulled or got from the finale and keeping it to myself. It is MY positivity. I didn't try to force it on anyone. Thirdly – I'm obsessed with the Winchesters. ... I don't even know how to answer this one. I am not obsessed with them, I have a Winchester preference, if you want to name it that way. I like Cass as a character, I do. And I love Misha. I just connected with the Winchesters more and that's my personal choice. I have faves in every show or movie I watch. In Supernatural, Sam and Dean are my faves. I have never said and will never say „fuck Cass“. I do not hate his character for fucks sake. And yeah, I am not a Destiel shipper so I'm not as invested in him or his connection to Dean as some of the people are, but that does not mean I was happy when he died or whatever else has happened to him throughout the show. On the matter of my opinion, fine. Here you go: I liked 15x19, even though the solution for dealing with God was a bit silly to me and maybe just... too easy? But hey, it happened and I liked the aftermath of it and the boys saying to him: You will grow old and you will be forgotten. Because that's a popular opinion in the old tales and myths etc., that that is the reason why there aren't any gods anymore. It's also basically in canon of the show? Remember the Paris Hilton episode? Remember the episode with all the other gods when Gabriel dies? Yeah. The thing with Jack being a power vacuum was messy because it wasn't really set up well, but it kind of worked. I've dealt with that and moved on. The finale – yes, I liked it. It made me really emotional to the point of ugly crying. I'm glad it did. One of my fears for the finale was that I just wouldn't get it or feel it and that this huge thing that has been a part of my life for the last 10+ years will just leave me feeling nothing. Luckily that did not happen. I've always had two ways the show could end in my head: 1. Sam and Dean being a sort of mentor figures to other hunters, like Bobby was to them. But still doing hunts, and basically riding off into the sunset in the Impala – because they have work to do. 2. Heaven ending. Yep. I was kind of leaning towards this one just because of everything that has happened in the show. There was no way that they both survive the final showdown and get to live happily ever after (even though they deserve it), but they would get to know peace in Heaven and finally be free. We kind off got a mix of both of these points, with them riding off into the sunset at the end of 15x19, and with them ending up in Heaven in 15x20. Some points I've seen thrown around I'm going to address so you can get my opinion as wanted. 1. Dean didn't deserve this ending Yeah, that is the whole fucking point. He did not deserve it and he got it anyway. Because that is just how life works sometimes. It's sudden and unexpected and it really isn't fucking fair. Just because we all love Dean and wanted better to him does not mean he would get it. He got to die by Sam's side, in the arms of someone he loves most in the world, his little brother and he got to say his peace. He was scared but he wasn't alone and he got to say his goodbye. Would I've liked it that both him and Sam got to grow old? Yes. Of course I would! Who wouldn't? But I also really understand this ending for him too. He died in a silly way. I'm sorry, but shall we count how many times they all could have died in an instant when they lose their weapons, get knocked over or pushed or whatever? We got a whole fucking episode about the sudden ways Dean can die (Mystery Spot) and we are still surprised that this could actually happen? It was sudden and unexpected and that was the whole point. One wrong thing happens and you are gone. And this time there is no one to heal you and bring you back because that is what life is. 2. Sam's ending I get this too. Dean made Sam promise, and Sam kept his promise. The woman was not seen properly, it wasn't Eileen etc etc. Also – that was the point. We got little flash-moments of his life to see that he lived it, he kept his promise to Dean. I understand people who are upset it wasn't done well (that wig was really atrocious) or that his wife wasn't Eileen, but I also understand the decision to not put focus on anything but Sam and his son. Concerning both their endings – people are saying �� stupid endings because this is what the boys have always wanted or feared and it was exactly what they got. I get even that. What happened to Dean could have happened to him 10 years down the road. It could have happened to Sam. It could not have happened at all. It could have happened so that they both die on the same hunt. But the ending thought is this – they would always be reconnected in Heaven. The long or the short way round would always end up in the same place and this time we got what we got. The thought that they ended up in Heaven with everyone else, that's what counts the most for me. 3. This is a stupid ending Not for me. This is coming back full circle for me. I've read more than one time that this kind of ending negates everything they have done, but I respectfully disagree. They have done a lot. They saved so many people. They won a fight against God and ultimately saved the Earth and made it so that everyone had free will. That is fucking huge and so important and such a big legacy to leave behind, even though basically no one knows about it. And them ending up how they did does not make everything they have achieved any less important. Who they've saved, killed, loved, lost – this ending doesn't make it any less important or stupid. Not for me. 4. They didn't pay homage to any other character on the show ... but they did? At the end of 15x19? I mean, yeah, maybe they could have put Cass or Jack or Donna or Jody at the ending too, or whoever else you want to name, but they didn't. Why? Because ultimately this was a story about two brothers against the world. I understand that decision too, and actually I love it because we got to focus on them for the finale. Do I agree with everything in this season – no. Some things could have been done better. The writing was choppy at times and some things didn't make sense and yes, they could have mentioned stuff and people... But there are worse seasons that this last one, so that's saying a lot. In conclusion - I am allowed to have my opinion. I am allowed to love something even though someone else really hates it. I am even allowed to dislike or hate something that makes someone else really happy. Except I don't go around attacking people in their inboxes for hating on something I love and vice versa, I don't put my anger about a certain ending or a character arc onto others just to feel better. That's being a shitty human. And Supernatural, and so many many many other shows have thought us to not do that. Instead they've taught us (or tried) to be better, do better, to be compassionate and kind. I urge you to do that. Next time you want to rant and accuse and shit all over someone, I kindly ask you to take a breather and think about it, think about what you are doing to others and to yourself.  And do better. That's all I have to say. Take care of yourselves everyone. Be kind.

[whateverthedragonswant]

More proof in the pudding for 15x20 breaking the fourth wall theory

I kind of already discussed this theory on this post here but in going over the last two seasons of GoT to add to this dark!Dany meta I’ve got going, I noticed something that I think is worth taking a look at.

GoT 8x06:

We all remember what happens after this weighted ominous walk of Jon’s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XhfGY5pIPg&t=254s

“When I was a girl, my brother told me it was made from a thousand swords of Aegon’s fallen enemies. What do a thousand swords look like in the mind of a little girl who can’t count twenty? I imagined a mountain of swords too high to climb. So many fallen enemies, you could only see the soles of Aegon’s feet.” “This is our reason. It has been from the beginning since you were a little boy with a bastard’s name and I was a little girl who couldn’t count to twenty.” “You are my queen, now and always.” -- this is dialogue meant to call back to the Dany the audience has known since season 1 - this was done in an effort to keep her character sympathetic to the end but it’s problematic since she just torched an entire city that held a million innocent people, and it completely negates the true moral of her story - her brother is mentioned who we haven’t seen since season 1, who by all means is not a good influence or a hero in this story but in this last season, she has started to embrace the Targaryen side of things (that we’ve seen reflected in her wardrobe, I see you Michele Clapton, you brilliant woman, you) - the dialogue even invokes season 1 Jon in that one line, though obviously the focus is not on Jon but Dany herself - Jon who had just been acting as the audience mouthpiece in the jail scene with Tyrion (acting as the writers’ mouthpiece - again breaking the 4th wall), saying “You are my queen, now and always”, something the split audience (the ones who felt betrayed by Dany’s dark turn and still stan her to this day) keep saying - yes “now and always” was a common saying in the North, but this wording is purposeful as is this piece of dialogue for essentially what is Dany’s death scene, the most controversial death to come out of this episode, the end of this series I would even argue

15x20:

We all remember Dean’s monologue that took close to 10 mins to happen as he was “fading pretty quick”, so much so that Sam couldn’t call for help

“There’s a few things that I need you to hear. Come here. Let me look at you. There he is. I am so proud of you, Sam. Do you know that? I’ve always looked up to you. Remember when we were kids, you were so damn smart, you never took any of Dad’s crap. I never knew how you did that. And you’re stronger than me. You always have been. Hey, did I ever tell you that night that, uh, that I came for you when you were at school? You know when Dad hadn’t come back from his hunting trip? The woman in white, that’s right. I must’ve stood outside your dorm for hours because I didn’t know what you would say. I thought you’d tell me to get lost or get dead and I didn’t know what I would’ve done if I didn’t have you. ‘Cause I was so scared. I was scared. ‘Cause when it all came down to it, it was always you and me. It’s always been you and me.” “I can’t do this alone.” “Yes, you can.” “Well, I don’t want to.” “I love you so much. My baby brother.” -- notice anything...familiar? -- this is dialogue meant to call back to season 1, to the original audience that started out with the brothers in season 1, that may not have stuck with the show for all 15 seasons but maybe ducked back in for the finale just to see how the show chose to end the boys’ stories - John is mentioned who is not a good influence nor a hero in the story which the show has gone out of their way to show time and time again, despite 14x13 - this is the result of one of their dad’s old unfinished hunts from season 1 including the “villain” - Dean mentions events of the first episode when John hasn’t come back from an old hunt, when he goes to get Sam from school, the woman in white being their very first MOTW of the show, even the dialogue from that first episode where the lines are reversed and Dean tells Sam he doesn’t want to do it alone - the dialogue is meant to invoke nostalgia of that pilot and that time, that version of the boys’ stories, where it was Winchester only - Dean’s death (outside of Cas’) is one of the most controversial deaths to happen this episode, even this series (though it has a lot of problematic deaths, i.e. Charlie but I mean in the main character arena) - this was done to keep season 1, specifically the pilot, in the viewers’ minds and as a callback to the beginning of the show, the dialogue was very purposeful, it’s also no coincidence that Sam is the focus here and once Dean is finished telling him goodbye essentially, he looks away behind the camera and talks about how he didn’t think today was going to be the day but it is (which adds to the pudding even more, because this is later season Dean talking who did not want to die on a hunt and wanted something different for himself, season 1 Dean always knew he would die young on a hunt) 

And let us not forget this:

Andrew Dabb: “If you thought Game of Thrones was bad, just wait” (x) - this is said in a joking manner but where is it said? Comic Con 2019, the same Comic Con D&D canceled their appearances at & left the cast who did appear to deal with the fallout. This isn’t a man flipping off people and being like “Ha! Crybabies, we’re doing what we want to do and that’s that! Ha!” He said it in a joking manner when he talked about how only 30% of people would be pleased after seeing the finale and Jared joined the conversation. This is the same man who pushed hard along with Bobo Berens for a spinoff that featured women and women of color as well as having proper queer representation but got shut down by the network in the end. The same guy who worked to separate Dean and Sam from their toxic co-dependency and bolstered the found family theme in the narrative, while also taking the baton that Carver started with of Dean and Sam thinking of what they would actually want for their endings, and running with it, developing that even further. 

What did GoT have? 2 final seasons as it were. To be fair, season 7 cannot be considered an alternate ending, it had way too many open endings but here (x) it’s stated that D&D did want to end GoT with season 7 initially before being convinced by the network to go to 8. They wanted to move onto other projects (that never happened because they’re egotistical greedy idiots, but I digress)  and their rush to end the series showed. HBO wanted 10 seasons but they didn’t want to move forward without D&D. GRRM thought at least 13 seasons would be appropriate. 

What did SPN have? 2 finales. 15x19 is not only the finale that closes up the mytharc but also the found family finale. I’m not sure if they knew this ahead of time or found out last second (Misha’s line of “Cas’ ending was supposed to be different but I don’t think we’re supposed to talk about that” still haunts me), but ultimately, that’s how it worked out. 15x19 was for the later season fans, the found family, the mythology fans (meaning Heaven, Hell, angels, nephilim, Lucifer, Jack, etc). That’s why we get the huge montage of characters at the end of the episode, the initials on the table, Dean demanding Cas be brought back in the beginning of the episode and Lucifer’s phone call, Dean and Sam wanting Jack to come back to the bunker but he can’t, Dean and Sam driving off in Baby together with “Running On Empty” playing. 15x20 was the series finale for early season fans, Kripke fans, Winchester-only fans. That’s why there’s no big montage in the beginning of the SERIES FINALE that they had done every season premiere, every season finale, and every mid-season premiere. They didn’t want the found family (yes, including Cas and Jack) in the viewers’ minds. But they couldn’t remove those two characters from the narrative completely (they were too integral later on in the series plus later season fans are watching this too) so they get mentions. This is why the Carry On My Wayward Son twice, Sam married to Blurry Wife and having Dean Jr., the Winchester-only mantle, the MOTW that calls back to one of their big bads (vampires) in season 1 (outside of YED & any demonic forces), why the brothers-only ending. This is why Dean is all ‘Cas who?’, why Eileen disappeared, and why Jack is off shooting a new spot for Architectural Digest. They only wanted Sam and Dean on your minds in 15x20 with the extension of John, Mary, Rufus, Bobby, and Baby with a touch of the Roadhouse in the background. This is also why no pictures of Blurry Wife on the Winchester-only mantle either. This is why Sam’s son was named Dean. This is why after putting on the Party City wig, Sam goes to sit in Baby and cries, thinking of Dean.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again: 15x20.👏 Was.👏 A.👏 Vehicle. It’s no coincidence that W*lker was more heavily promoted during 15x20 than any other time before. That what happens in 15x20 for Sam and Dean (and that Sam is once again the focus after having the story split between the brothers for years before) parallels somewhat to what happens in Jared’s new show and his character. This is the same network that uses its shows to backdoor pilots of spinoffs and other shows time and time again (think Green Arrow and The Canaries, Legacies, etc). It’s also no coincidence that W*lker is in the same time slot as SPN had been in, that they intersperse the use of #SPNFamily and #W*lkerFamily on Twitter, that the C*W SPN twitter account is used to steer followers to their other content, that the C*W YouTube account for SPN no longer has any clips or promos available for that show, almost as if it doesn’t exist. You know why? Simple, they don’t want SPN on your minds anymore. They want you watching W*lker and any other new content they are cooking up and throwing at you. Don’t be surprised if they start heavily promoting another new show (besides their returning ones) during W*lker episodes now. That’s just the name of the game, how it works. They already pushed the audience they wanted from 15x20 to W*lker and now SPN is an officially closed chapter for them. Dabb and the actors had other projects to move onto. In their minds, it’s done...until they try to reboot it in some way in a couple of years. And it will not only feature a younger generation of actors but will have what they consider to be appropriate queer representation as well as POC representation in the new cast. It may be the same Winchester story though changed or a whole new story in that universe. You laugh but watch. It’ll happen. This network is not known for its quality or originality, only for their brand. There’s a reason they keep on showrunners to head up new content if their original source of content works and they become “favorites” (i.e Julie Plec).

Ultimately, GoT was referenced many times on SPN, in dialogue between characters whether it applied or not. GoT was mentioned by the actors when discussing watching it, at cons and in interviews. SPN (and Dabb) was very well aware of GoT and what happened with that show. Not only because it was all over the media everywhere, being a pop culture phenomenon that had HUGE backlash, but also because they were there at the Comic Con where the backlash was felt strongest. To the point where even other people mentioned it in their panels (i.e. Seth Rogen). I’m obviously not in Dabb’s head nor was I on set when they filmed the finale or in the writers’ room with J2 and the writers when they pitched the ending so I don’t know. But isn’t it odd that 8x06 of GoT features a scene that has been confirmed by Kit Harington as breaking the 4th wall to speak to/get the viewers’ attention, make them think, and SPN is a show that has featured that same concept (usually in a comedic fashion) time and time again? And in 15x20 they have Robert Singer make an appearance? And the infamous bridge crew shot, J2 talking to you while still in costume as Sam and Dean from that same shot, and the voiceover “And cut” before it cuts to black? 

I don’t think we’ll ever really get answers. I think any we get will always be complimentary to the network, or “we can’t talk about it”, or “it was always planned that way”. I’m not saying those people are being less than truthful (and seriously, I don’t blame any of them, it’s PR and they need to protect their careers, feed their families, if you speak out on anything in this universe, something really serious or the tiniest thing, you risk ever getting hired again, you will be blacklisted, it’s not right and it’s certainly not fair, but this is the way this particular business works) but something is not adding up (a lot of somethings actually). I think there was definitely a different ending for Cas, possibly even Jack (meaning he might have made at least one appearance). I do think there may have been a different resolution to Destiel and Saileen (unless they truly planned to keep it ambiguous all along). I don’t know if Dean would have had a different ending, I think he might have at one point as suggested by the narrative during Carver’s and Dabb’s eras, but I’m not sure what their “true ending” was going to be regarding him or Sam. To have Sam be the one that died would have been redundant from Swan Song (5x22) so I doubt they would have gone in that direction. I hate to think it but I don’t think we’ll ever really know. As far as death scenes go, Dean’s death in 9x23 was way more meaningful and impactful for me when he tells Sam that he’s proud of them, than what we got in 15x20. No offense to the guys’ acting or to the boys themselves, but the 9x23 scene was more appropriate imho. And that also leads me to believe that Dean’s manner of death may not have been what they planned all along. But until we get answers (which again I don’t think we will), we’ll never truly know for sure.

As for me, this is just more proof in the pudding. I’m not saying Dabb & Co purposely sabotaged 15x20 at all but I wouldn’t be surprised if they kept the reaction to GoT’s finale in mind at a couple of key points while getting these last two episodes shot. 15x19 was our finale, sad to say. 15x20 was the network’s finale, meant to induce nostalgia and callbacks, bringing the boys’ original fans over to Texas to watch a certain ranger do roundhouse kicks. Sad but true.