#on the KL theory

[lemonsharkgirlfriend]

everyone's joking about a lesbian love triangle being the focus of rhaenyra/alicent/mysaria's stories in hotd s3 but that will literally be what happens when mysaria acts to uphold and support the image of rhaenyra as queen (or rhaenyra's duty) and alicent is kept prisoner (or a hidden but unavoidable reminder of rhaenyra's love). and so the love triangle will serve to represent rhaenyra's internal conflict between love and duty

[the-lake-lily-alchemist]

Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the HotU

So, I want to beat an already dead and over-beaten horse, and talk a bit about Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying.

Now, I want to preface it by saying that I know this subject has been talked about thousands of times and it’s boring and tiring to talk about the same shit over and over again, but I just saw “Rhaegar is a prophecy-obsessed groomer/rapist” discourse on my twitter feed and thought I’d toss my two cents in.

Firstly, let’s look a bit at this vision as it appears in the books, shall we?

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

As we can see here, Dany, on her quest to find her children, stumbles upon this little moment long past. The text tells us that the three people shown here are Rhaegar, his wife Elia, and their son Aegon.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

This passage specifically has been interpreted numerous times. The text tells us that Rhaegar thought that his son, Aegon, was The Prince that was Promised. However, Rhaegar looks up when he says the prophecy, and looks directly at Dany, as if talking to her.

This to me reads as not-very-subtly being told the answer to the prophecy. Dany is TPTWP, as the author tells us through vision-Rhaegar. Thus, she is made aware of the prophecy, part of which we can find in the title of the book series.

I’ve seen the theory that Rhaegar seeing Dany was a time-space continuum bubble, of the present looking at the past, or, for Rhaegar, the present glimpsing at the future. How I see it, however, is that when he says those fateful words, and looks up to meet his sister’s eyes, he becomes both the gods’ and the author’s channel to make Dany and the reader aware of the answer to the prophecy. He sceases to be just a vision of the past and becomes the gods’/R’hllor’s voice, informing Dany. He tells her about the PTWP prophecy, because she is TPTWP!

Thus, when he continues with this,

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

we can infer that he’s saying this to Dany, because the gods want her to know this (and the author wants us to know this).

Mind you, these are visions, not just excerpts from the past/present/future. The conversation as it’s shown might not have taken place exactly like this, if it ever did. With how abrupt the cut from Rhaegar saying this to him going and playing the harp, I think he’s never said those words himself. Again, I believe that, in that moment (given that “There must be one more” and “The dragon has three heads” do not tie at all with the PTWP prophecy), it’s the gods using this vision of him to tell Dany (and the reader) an important message.

I shall say it one more time, just to be perfectly clear: IT’S NOT RHAEGAR TALKING ABOUT THE THREE HEADS AND A THIRD CHILD, IT’S THE GODS!

“There must be one more”, because Rhaegar has three children, not just two. Dany is fated to meet Rhaegar’s third child (and very probably fall in love and marry said third child, but that’s another overly-beaten, dead horse), and we as readers have been getting clues about who this child is since book one.

In no passage is it stated or implied that Rhaegar sought to have another child. He doesn’t go on and say, “When the maester has cleared you, we shall try for a third.” or “Because you can’t get pregnant again, I shall look for another woman to bear my third child.” The theory that he wanted another one, presumably a girl, to name her Visenya, is just that, a fan theory.

“The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can flnd them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.” (ASOS, Dany VI)

It’s clear (or it should be) that “the dragon has three heads” it’s specifically for Dany to know that there are two people out there whom she can trust and with whom she shall stand “against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.”

It’s not about Rhaegar thinking that his children are “the three heads of the dragon”. It’s about Dany. You would think it’s obvious given that it’s her chapter, but whatever.

[fromtheseventhhell]

High-key want Arya and Varys to cross paths again at some point, like I need Varys to know that he was spied on by a 9-year-old Arya and that his plans could've potentially been foiled by her

[reddslym]

Rhaegar on the Quiet Isle assuming he washed up there before his rubies did: Fuck, I couldve just set Rhaenys or my potential baby sister up with whatever son Brandon and Catelyn had instead of running off with Lyanna.

Welp, back to playing this high harp I made outta driftwood and hoping it all works out in the realm's favor anyway

[tweedfrog]

The Dayne shunning theory is my absolute favorite! Like yes!! Consequences for what happened to Elia and her kids!! Whether it’s fairly handed out or not, it’s satisfying to see. I particularly love it in rhaegar wins fics when Arthur is alive to experience it.

youve probably already read my Elia fic A Tigress not a woman but if you havent i think youll enjoy the Arthur bullying scenes in it because hes basically getting Dayne Shunning in my au

but yes i think theres something so natural about Doran managing to barely keep a hold on dorne after Elias death but the anger has to go somewhere so it all coalesces around the Daynes who can be punished unlike the Lannisters and Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen. It's very unfair to Ned and Allyria (and possibly Ashara and Lord Dayne if they werent involved) but also super understandable to lash out at an easy accessible target.

[gamebunny-advance]

158...

That's how many posts I have in my drafts.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#protecting his cousin 🥺 #this is cleverly foreshadowed by jaime wondering what happened to tyrek in the same book #jk obviously it’s not him. bc he animorphed right AFTER she left for dorne #must be some other horse person #‘darkstar did his best’ damn ok. tried his best to kill a 10 yo and failed. cringe

And that horse? Tyrek Lannister

[nutellaninja0001]

You know, it’s been about 5 years since the ending of Game of Thrones and this shit is JUST now hitting me that Dan and David were given a rough idea of the ending of the books. Dany burning KL, Bran becoming King, the army of the dead being destroyed, Arya sailing west. All rough drafts they had to fill in the holes without the books. You wanna know WHAT ELSE was incredibly hinted at during season 8? The love triangle between Jon, Sansa and Dany. I don’t even care if I seem delusional at this point. No one can convince me I was crazy at this point.

Really think about some of the scenes we got in season 8. Think about how Sansa was gazing at Jon with a smile of admiration before she saw he was looking at Dany. The immediate reaction of disappointment as she gets up and leaves. The way they have Sansa tell Jon “But you love her.” (Referring to Dany) before the scene cuts completely. The scene where Sansa laughs and shifts her body completely when she realizes it was Dany’s feelings for Jon that brought Dany north. And to me, one of the most important moments was Dany asking if Jon’s love for her bothered Sansa. Exactly why would that be a bother for her? I’ve talked about all of these scenes many times over during the airing of season 8 but even fans who have no idea of the Jonsa theories saw something was a little weird with it.

All I’m saying is, we’re getting Jonsa in the books and I will die on this hill

[amaltheas-garden]

I think Jon will stay in the north but with no one, no partners, children, just him

That's definitely a possibility! (Especially with how the show ended) Plenty of others have already written quite a bit on how Martin promised a bittersweet ending, and how all the starklings ending up alone and separated would be a real low point to end the series on. Imo, Jon "dying" and getting a second chance where he is not bound to his Night's Watch oaths just to turn around and rejoin 1 book later seems a bit pointless. It's a bit connected to the Jonsa-cousin reveal theory, as Jonsa becomes possible through the revelation of them being cousins (compared to Jonerys where Jon being related to her or not has little effect, at least from Dany's pov, since Targs are chill with incest). In a similar vein, Jon's death and resurrection opens up more paths for him, since his watch technically ended, and he can become a legitimate Stark/Lord of Winterfell without being an oath breaker.

I would also say, Jon originally joined the NW because it was the only place a bastard could make a name for himself, but the whole time what he truly wanted was to be seen as worthy of his father's name. But when Stannis offers him legitimatization, Jon rejects it. Because at the end of the day, it's not about the literal name Stark, but being a part of their family, and carrying on the legacy of his "father". Something I think the show did well was display how much it meant to Jon that Sansa viewed him as her family. Even though Jon being a bastard, illegitimate son places him in a more unique place than most classic fantasy protagonist (at least at time of grrm writing before everyone wanted to write grimdark lol), his narrative still features all the classic hallmarks of a hero's story. He begins the story wanting one thing (to be a Stark), being unable to attain that thing, but then when it is finally presented to him (via Stannis), he rejects it (thus proving himself worthy). Typically, the resolution that follows would be Jon getting the thing he originally wanted after proving himself worthy (choosing duty over titles, loyalty to the NW, defending the inheritance rights of his trueborn siblings). And if Jon becomes a Stark through marriage to Sansa, well, that would be the perfect little subversion of Jon's story, in that his dreams of Winterfell and children would be fulfilled through probably the last avenue Jon would ever think possible.

Last thing I'll say is, I don't think there's a good enough reason for Jon to have to return to the Wall after all is said and done. The Starks built the Wall, and have been closely tied to maintaining the NW ever since. With Bran off in KL and Arya on her voyage, it makes more sense for two Starks to stick together to oversee the rebuilding of Winterfell and strengthening the North. There's no reason Jon can't help the NW while also not rejoining. (Of course, I am biased as I want to see Jon have a son named Robb, and carry on the Stark name ;))

[melrosing]

I’m sure you’ve talked about this before but tumblr’s search function is ass 😭 what’s your endgame prediction for Jaime esp in light of the show? I think Jaime is def fighting the others as hinted in his weirwood dream. But the way got ended doesn’t feel right to me. On Reddit everyone’s saying it makes no sense so it has to be a bad adaptation of what GRRM told them but idk I don’t buy it. Especially since it seems like Cersei replaced young griff’s role

i have talked about it before but even i can't find it ha so i don't mind talking about it again however.... my thoughts on this are vague. longwinded post ahead which is more thought starters than anything definitive.

to briefly address the show ending... I mean it's literally impossible for Jaime's story to end like that, because we know that Cersei's can't end that way. Cersei is going to be murdered by the valonqar, whoever that turns out to be. and even apart from that, the book version of the twins are so done romantically. sure, there are the barest vestiges of that connection in Jaime's ADWD chapter ('back to Cersei, another part of him whispered'), but ASOS/AFFC otherwise make for an extremely thorough deconstruction of that relationship that ends with Jaime leaving Cersei for dead and wandering off the grid with Brienne. like.... GRRM didn't write all that for nothing. and sure, some people still think he might still bounce back to her in some way or another, but generally i have found.... that those theories don't tend to accompany the strongest takes on jaime's character dhjkls

for the same reason, I don't really know where this leaves us wrt the valonqar prophecy. if Jaime were still preoccupied with Cersei's cheating, he would've acted on it by now. Tyrion thinks in ACOK that if Jaime ever found out about Lancel, he'd have killed the kid himself. Jaime in AFFC suggests Lancel eat something and go to therapy. Jaime himself imagines in AFFC scenarios where he exacts revenge on the Kettleblacks and Cersei herself, and yet given the opportunity to do so.... he wanders off in the opposite direction.

the reason being that the connection Jaime once felt to Cersei has died. that bond was his reason for living, for doing anything at all - and now it's not enough for him to even stick around long enough to see what's happened to her in KL, never mind return to her side to exact revenge on her himself. in practise, he doesn't harbour the kind of action and rage he dreams about, or claims to Ilyn Payne. it's the same as how he claims he's Tywin's heir, and then keeps letting people off the hook t any given opportunity. like for all Jaime knows, he could die fighting """"the Hound"""", and never see Cersei again, and that's apparently just fine. the opposite of love isn't hate it's indifference etc. and no I don't think Jaime will ever feel truly indifferent to Cersei - she is his twin, the mother of his children, and the woman he has loved all his life. but I think it's entirely fair to say that the extremes of love and hate he felt within the context of their romance are gone, because the romance itself has gone. Jaime's feelings towards Cersei exist outside of that now.

returning to the valonqar prophecy. I don't think it's necessarily guaranteed that Jaime the valonqar, but I do think it would be myopic to claim that he isn't a real possibility. and since Cersei's end has to factor into what Jaime's is or isn't in some kind of way, I'll suppose that he is the valonqar for the sake of this post. it's not written, so I can't say how exactly I'll end up feeling about its execution, but per the previous paragraph, I don't imagine this will have anything to do with the 'Moonboy for all I know' shit. that was for AFFC. that was building to Jaime burning her letter. Jaime in TWOW is going to have left much of that behind, bc frankly he'll have other stuff to worry about.

but we know that Cersei will be dealing w wildfire (apart from what happens in the show, this is one of the most heavily foreshadowed events in the book), and whilst it's not clear when or why she'll use it, it seems like a natural site for the valonqar prophecy to come true, in whatever way it does. and Jaime has been here before w Aerys etc, this has perturbed him in other Cersei x wildfire scenes in AFFC, so it seems it's a likely full circle moment. potentially Tommen's life is wrapped up in this too - I think it's also foreshadowed that Cersei (I assume accidentally) will manage to kill Tommen in the wildfire blast as well. so like, sure, ig that would set the scene for valonqar Jaime. I've never really liked this prophecy for a whole host of reasons, but the idea of spurned lover Jaime tramping back to KL to kill Cersei over Moonboy is uh. ??? yeah im not worried about that

[as for the more sensitive implications of Jaime being the valonqar as Cersei's ex lover, which I believe exist regardless of whether the act is about Moonboy or not: I think that's an important conversation to be had, but not one I feel effectively able to have until we have the scene itself. so whilst i want to acknowledge that context, I've found that conversations aren't often productive when participants are each imagining a different version of the scene in their minds]

then we're just left to contemplate where exactly any of this comes in the broader picture of TWOW/ADOS. if it is (per the show) effectively the last act of the series, then idk. maybe Jaime dies in Cersei's wildfire/the general pyre that is KL by this point idk?? like ok sure. he saved the city once but he couldn't save it this time etc.

however I tend to believe that TLN will follow what happens in KL, or in the very least will follow Cersei's death. i'm never certain of this, but if not, it leaves you wondering what exactly Cersei, Aegon, Arianne, Joncon etc are even doing in the south throughout all this. like. carrying on as normal?? do they even notice TLN?? winter is setting in everywhere.

and I do fully believe Jaime will fight in TLN per the weirwood dream, widow's wail etc. Jaime's story is a redemption arc (whether ppl like that term or not, GRRM uses it himself), and fighting in TLN is a natural conclusion to Jaime's pivot to the pursuit of honour, and his arc's own gradual turn towards the northern storyline. Jaime's story has always been about leaving behind loyalty to individuals and institutions, and instead fighting for causes he believes in, according to his own set of values. there's also the fact that he has to attain widow's wail somehow (which i'm certain he will), and as it is currently in KL.... it seems reasonable to assume that Jaime will be stopping by KL before he moves north again. this could be a tenuous assumption or it could be entirely correct, guess we'll see. but whatever

so if TLN is the final act of the series, then Jaime either dies in TLN (fine), or possibly even survives the series (though on this I always hedge my optimism). survival possibilities include becoming Hand or a KG to Bran, joining the Night's Watch, becoming a hedge knight, literally whatever. I like the idea that he stays with Brienne whatever ends up happening, but if it's some bittersweet long distance shit then sure whatever that's workable. however i do prefer to just assume he'll die for my own sake xo

[hollowwhisperings]

The points made here for King Bran also work for King Jaime because, thematically, "King Jaime" theories hinge on Bran acting as his Kingmaker.

(for one thing, most everyone set up to inherit power in Spring has sufficient motive to execute Jaime even if he ends up redeeming himself)

"Kingmaker Bran" seems almost certain, regardless of Who Survives to get stuck ruling the other survivors:

King Bran would be his own Kingmaker, likely through Jojen (who could do this dead or alive because Greenseer);

Bran Stark, as the Honorable Ned Stark's [male] Heir, would hold CONSIDERABLE political authority as one of the sole surviving scions of the Great Houses: currently, there is 1 Arryn (who may be a bastard but is definitely Doom-coded); 1 officially alive Stark (who is actually Jeyne Poole); 3 Martells (Doran, Arianne & Trystane, all varyingly coded for Doom); 2 persons named Tully (4 if Fair Walda & her babe survive); 1 Casterly-Lannister (Jaime, Tyrion's in exile); 2 Baratheons (Stannis & Shireen, both Doom-coded); and many highly flammable Tyrells (Willas might survive, bc Themes, but most seem Doomed via location). Bran Stark showing up, all Alive and Male, would rally all the Lesser Lords to overlook their ableism because their sexism, xenophobia & recent regional politics have made Bran (and possibly Willas) the only Lord left "worth" following.

due to being Ned Stark (& Catelyn)'s son and his Surviving, Bran would be considered "impartial". If the taboo on magic is gone (or 180'd back to "religious reverence"), Bran being a Greenseer would give him additional clout.

any surviving Targaryens, Baratheons, Tyrells or Lannisters hoping for a crown would need the backing of a Stark, that "oldest" line of kingship & the Wardens of Winter, to not get shot down immediately by xenophobic and war weary Lords. Even assuming Dany or Young Griff are "genuine" Targaryens of Westeros, they still grew up in Essos and came back with Foreign Armies: they need a Local Kingmaker who ISN'T a living scandal.

That is to say, the geographic and thematic aspects of Harrenhal and of Kingship in the ASOIAF series REQUIRE Bran as a mediator for peace talks. Bran becoming King of Westeros is plausible because, by the time Spring arrives, Bran would basically be the last universally recognised "Authority": Bran is Male, Bran is of Legitimate Birth, Bran is a Stark, Bran is a Tully, Bran is a Whent, Bran SURVIVED (he should be dead at least 7 times over, and that's by CURRENT canon: he'll have survived even more by Springtime).

Bran's being disabled might even give him greater popularity, in a Great Springtime Council: Winter and years of War would give most survivors loved experience with disabilities, be it their own or that of those around them. Frostbite would steal bits and pieces from all across the social strata; the Winter/Eldritch conditions would result in greater risks when Traveling or Fleeing; everyone would have seen battle or those wounded by it; Burns would be fairly common too, be it from rushed funerals or wights, from accidents in the Cold & Dark, via proximity to dragons or red priests... can people survive Wildfyre burns? There's going to be a lot of arson just in general, in a setting that is highly flammable & where arson is a common plot device).

In a post-apocalyptic Westeros, Bran's disability would merit very little offense... unless he gets Outed as infertile or something but, with so few survivors amongst the nobility due to War & after an apocalyptic Winter, even infertility wouldn't oust Bran from wielding authority because traditional succession by that point is all but impossible (women, children & disabled men get Power because Everyone Else Is Dead).

Willas and Doran, assuming they survive, would be more receptive to anything Bran proposes through their sharing the lived experience of being Men Disabled "Non-Heroically" : that's 2 out of 7 Lords Paramount in Bran's Camp; Bran is related to another 3 (assuming he isn't himself a Lord); Jaime Lannister is very much In Debt to the Starks and Bran most of all (assuming Tyrion isn't on Trial or otherwise barred from politics, he'd side with Bran out of Lannister Debt &/or Solidarity); and not one Baratheon, legitimate or otherwise, would survive to see Spring without At Least 1 Stark lending their support.

Stannis & Shireen Baratheon are currently in Stark Territory, Jon's specifically, and neither of them are held highly in regard: their survival & political authority is contingent on Northern goodwill, gained via Jon's vouching for them, and Melissandre Being Scary (Stannis has guards & a small army but, like, this is The North in Winter and they're surrounded by Free Folk: he's screwed without Jon and his whole political campaign was built on Ned Stark's Word).

The Baratheon Bastards (Mya, Edric and Gendry) already owe their lives to Jon Arryn & Ned Stark: Cersei had every other half-sibling killed. It's unlikely any of the Bastards would "survive" getting Legitimized (Mel sees them as Fuel; any wartime "rewards" by Heirs Claimant, Lannister or Targaryen or Otherwise, would be a political landmine waiting to happen; they're all in areas of active conflict, where their parentage could get them killed if known, and having a Stark Sister to namedrop could save (or kill) them.

So. "Kingmaker Bran" is not only thematically appropriate, it's also a political necessity: post-Winter Westeros may be more accepting of women holding power but Bran's legitimate birth, his gender and his "political neutrality" leaves him as the Least Hated Lord in any given council of lords.

So if Bran Stark wants the Lords to hold a Great Council at Harrenhal, the surviving Lords of Westeros are going to have a Great Council at Harrenhal. If Bran Stark thinks that Claimant X is Unfit for rule, Claimant X is Unfit For Rule. If Bran Stark think that Kingship of Westeros is a Just Punishment, and if Bran Stark, the person Most Wronged Party by Prisoner A, thinks Kingship to be a Just Punishment for said Criminal? All Hail Prisoner A, First of Their Name!

Bran can achieve all the above just by Showing Up to a Great Council and Passing Two-Factor Identification: any personal Heroics to his name or Epic Feats by those of (or in service to) his House would only add further credibility to his being Bran Stark, eldest surviving son of Ned Stark.

Any Tree Wizardry Bran may retain is superfluous to the politics of his simply being Bran Stark in a setting where everyone else is dead, female, foreign &/or a war criminal. Bran Stark, Tree Wizard, calling everyone out to Harrenhal for peacetalks is a logical progression of his story as a Greenseer, a person of Destiny, the eldest surviving son of Catelyn & Ned.

(let's just hope that when Bran Stark does his Kingmaking, the only Wizarding he does is with Trees and Animal Familiars rather than Tree-People or Hodor: a hivemind police state like that of Brynden Rivers' Westeros would be more "Nightmare" than "Dream". Hopefully Jojen will show up, ideally Alive, to yell at his Prince in time for Bran to be mid-Atonement Arc when he learns what's become of Jon Snow, Winterfell, his sisters & Rickon.)

Harrenhal will be the new seat of what’s left of the Seven Kingdoms at the ending.

I know a few people have already said bits and pieces of this but I wanted to get everything in one post for my own sanity lmao. There’s three kind of main branches to this theory: geographical reasons, historical reasons, and reasons specific to King Bran theories.

Geography surrounding Harrenhal

It’s the center of everything! Let me show you on the map because i’m a visual learner:

Ignore the North and Dorne and probably the Iron Islands too, bc the first two are not gonna be part of The Seven Kingdoms anymore and the Iron Islands is…gonna be a fucking mess lmao. Lemme zoom in:

It’s a very centralized point in the Riverlands but it’s also fairly centralized to the Crownlands (which will probably get absorbed into the others), the Stormlands, the Eyrie, the Reach, and the Westerlands. It makes sense, from a geographical standpoint, that if the lords need to choose a new ruling seat - and they will no matter what, because King’s Landing is gonna go boom - that a more centralized location for easier access to the capital would be their decision.

The Riverlands is also an excellent choice in general because geographically, they are always getting screwed due to being right in the middle of everyone. They get fucked during the Dance, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert’s Rebellion, AND the War of the Five Kings. The only area that really gets screwed over more during the various wars is probably the Dornish Marches, because of the conflicts between the stony Dornishmen and the Storm and Reacher Lords but you can’t really set up there because it’s too far from the Eyrie and Riverlands.

And the thing about the Riverlands is that part of why it gets fucked up is that it’s right in the middle of everything and has no natural defenses. The Eyrie has the mountains, the North has their snow, the Dornish has their desert. The Reach manages to stay out of a lot of fighting because that’s where the food is (although the Iron Islands are about to screw them, but that’s because the war has spiraled out of control) and while both the Stormlands and the Westerlands have seen big battles, they have some protection in their coasts, which gives them ships that the Riverlands just can’t quite access. Having the King set up in the Riverlands gives the smallfolk of the Riverlands some much needed protection and potentially, a break from all the fighting.

So the Riverlands is a good place to set up shop, but Harrenhal specifically? Well, that’s because it’s huge:

Every child of the Trident knew the tales told of Harrenhal, the vast fortress that King Harren the Black had raised beside the waters of Gods Eye three hundred years past, when the Seven Kingdoms had been seven kingdoms, and the riverlands were ruled by the ironmen from the islands. In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren's armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King's Landing.

If it’s going to be the capital, it has to be somewhere that can hold a whole lot of people and Harrenhal is ginormous and perfect for holding lots of people. It’s even happened before; part of why Lord Whent stages his big tourney where Lyanna is crowned queen of love and beauty is because likely because Ser Oswell Whent, his brother on the Kingsguard, asked him to stage an excuse to get all the Lords together so Rhaegar could discuss with them what to do about his father and Harrenhal is the biggest castle they can do that in outside of King’s Landing. From The Kingbreaker chapter:

Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together.

It’s also built up to be sturdier than King’s Landing. Whereas King’s Landing was kind of haphazardly thrown together as it built up over the years, Harren the Black had always meant for a lot of people to be housed there. We see how many people can live in it during Arya’s chapters as she runs around inside of it and Harrentown and this is with a ruler who has no interest in keeping a lot of people in it. With a King or Queen living there, it opens itself up to growing in a much more easily defensible way than King’s Landing.

Historical Reasons Harrenhal is Significant

As you can see on the map, it’s built right on the edge of a very important place: The Isle of Faces and the lake that surrounds it, called the Gods Eye.

It’s a key place for the history of Westeros because it’s where the First Men and the Children of the Forest made peace:

Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact…

It’s also notable for being the only place the Andals never managed to conquer:

It is possible that a few [Children of the Forest] survived on the Isle of Faces, as some have written, under the protection of the green men, whom the Andals never succeeded in destroying.

It’s a place associated with peace and negotiations between people, a place to stand strong against war and untouched by its horrors. A monument to what could be, if you will. And Harrenhal sits on its shore; it would add a very rich layer to setting up King’s Landing in a place associated with peace. And this isn’t the only time a succession crisis of sorts is settled there. The Great Council of 101 AC was held there.

To resolve the matter of his heir once and for all, Jaehaerys called the first Great Council in the year 101 AC, to put the matter before the lords of the realm. And from all corners of the realm the lords came. No castle could hold so many save for Harrenhal, so it was there that they gathered. The lords, great and small, came with their trains of bannermen, knights, squires, grooms, and servants. And behind them came yet more—the camp followers and washerwomen, the hawkers and smiths and carters. Thousands of tents sprang up over the moons, until the castle town of Harrenton was accounted the fourth largest city of the Realm.

Once again, we have Harrenhal associated with peace and negotiation in its history. However, that’s not all it’s associated with; there are several very significant battles that take place near the Gods Eye - again, it is in the middle of everything. It’s a place with lots of history and lots of ties to everyone in Westeros. There’s the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye between Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned, The Battle of the Lake Shore and The Battle Over the Gods Eye during the Dance, as well as the story of Addam Velaryon landing Seasmoke on the Isle of Faces to take counsel from the green men after being accused of treason. It is, all in all, a very significant place in Westeros.

But that’s not the only reason Harrenhal is talked about. Basically every single time Harrenhal is brought up, someone will mention that it’s haunted. This belief comes because of Aegon the Conquerer and Harren the Black. While Orys Baratheon and Rhaenys march for the Stormlands & Daemon Velaryon and Visenya left for the Vale, Aegon himself first turns towards Harren the Black and the Riverlands. All three face opposition but Aegon conquers the Riverlands first because Harren is so ill loved:

So now the riverlands rose against him, led by Lord Edmyn Tully of Riverrun. Summoned to the defense of Harrenhal, Tully declared for House Targaryen instead, raised the dragon banner over his castle, and rode forth with his knights and archers to join his strength to Aegon’s. His defiance gave heart to the other riverlords. One by one, the lords of the Trident renounced Harren and declared for Aegon the Dragon. Blackwoods, Mallisters, Vances, Brackens, Pipers, Freys, Strongs … summoning their levies, they descended on Harrenhal.

And he makes very quick work of Harrenhal, making it the first Kingdom to become part of the Seven Kingdoms:

The riverlords outside the castle walls said later that the towers of Harrenhal glowed red against the night, like five great candles … and like candles, they began to twist and melt, as runnels of molten stone ran down their sides.

Ever since the burning of Harrenhal, no House has been able to hold it without going extinct soon after. For House Targaryen’s rule in Westeros to start with Harren the Black’s hubris and the fall of Harrenhal, and end with Harrenhal becoming the new seat of the King of the Four (??) Kingdoms is a really neat connection.

Reasons Why It Works With King Bran

But wait! you say. Didn’t you just say that Harrenhal is cursed??

Why yes I did. HOWEVER. There is one family that the Curse of Harrenhal supposedly never touched: The Whents.

You see, from Harren the Black up until the Whents, every other House in charge of it has gone extinct.

House Hoare? That’s Harren’s house and we all know what happened there - they don’t call him Balerion the Black Dread for no reason.

House Qoherys? Dead less than three decades later.

House Harroway? Wiped out a decade later.

House Towers? died out within two decades, ending with sickly Maegor Towers and then old and tired Rhaena Targaryen, until the two odd friends died and the holdings were free again.

House Strong? Well…between the fire that kills Harwin and Lyonel, Larys’ shenanigans getting him merced by Cregan, and Aemond just straight committing a minor genocide in the Riverlands, they all died out (except maybe Alys Rivers’ baby but we don’t have any info there).

House Lothston? Interestingly, they hold the castle for several decades, but they too went completely extinct under King Maekar.

So we come to House Whent. They’ve held it for about 6 ish decades and though they’ve also had some bad luck, they’ve had their people grow old - Walter Whent who threw the tourney is called “Old Lord Whent” by Barristan, and Shella Whent is old when she dies. But the most interesting thing is Minisa Whent.

We don’t know a lot about the Whent line, only that Shella refused to bend the knee to Joffrey, fled Harrenhal when it was attacked, and later died. You could say the curse still got them but in every other case, the whole line dies, not just the main line! Even Janos Slynt has no descendants and Littlefinger will have none to inherit either. But the Whents do: they have House Tully. Minisa Whent married Hoster Tully and had Catelyn and Edmure. The Whents are known for their sharp cheekbones and both Catelyn and Sansa, funny enough, are described as having sharp cheekbones. This very close relation could mean that the Starklings have a claim to Harrenhal through their mother.

This fits with King Bran because we know the lords are perfectly fine fudging things and going through the female line if it fits their needs. They did the same thing with Robert and his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, who married Ormund Targaryen, Steffon’s mother. Renly says here:

Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it.

The maesters love a loophole inheritance.

And remember that the odds of surviving the books for the Baratheons and Targaryens is very, very low. It’s pretty much just bastards all the way down (on both sides lmao, because I do not think either Young Griff or Dany are gonna survive). And whenever the inheritance isn’t clear, a Great Council is called. Catelyn even suggested it while parlying with the Baratheons:

Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.

Mentioning Bran, of course. A lot of people think it’s far fetched and while I do think him being so young is gonna be a hard sell now that the time jump is gone, I don’t think it’s that far fetched that the lords of the Stormlands, The Reach, the Eyrie, and The Westerlands would be convinced to choose Hoster Tully’s grandson and Ned Stark’s baby boy to rule over them.

And finally, Robb wasn’t called “Robb Stark, King in the North” he was also explicitly called “King of the Trident.” All the talk about who is Robb’s heir but look at how they all think of themselves - “as brave as Robb” “as strong as Robb” or they’ll have sons and name them Robb. Whereas Who Rules The North is all tied up in Robb’s legacy, the Iron Throne isn’t! If King Bran rules from the Riverlands, however, it gives Bran that tie to Robb; he gets to protect and rule from the lands Robb swore to protect, the lands he ultimately fought and died in. For Bran, he still gets to be Robb’s heir, at least in spirit, and I think that would be, to Bran, something very bittersweet.

[daenerystargaryen06]

Reasons Why Daenerys Sacrificing Herself is Stupid

So, I have seen from the fandom points on that while people might not believe Daenerys will be killed, she will die sacrificing herself for the good of humanity against the Others in the books. Thus ending her arc in a 'better' manner. Yet this STILL includes harping on a female characters death, even if it is 'heroic', it's still just as bad as contemplating Dany dying by being killed by anything else. Some reasonings based on this theory vary:

-Some say Dany sacrificing herself will be a 'redemption' after she goes mad in the books and burns shit down (which is as ooc as it is and stems off of misogyny).

-Some say it is better for Dany to die sacrificing herself as a hero to rid/atone of the 'sins' of her ancestors (also misogynistic, and stupid.)

-Some say they'd rather see Dany die through self-sacrifice than any other way (but why see Dany die at all? Why not want for her to live happily instead, either as Queen or in a home of her own choosing?)

-Some say Dany will sacrifice herself to Jon as Nissa Nissa for the good of humanity (also misogynistic. Reduces Dany as a character. Dany is Azor Ahai, not Nissa Nissa).

The issue within Dany sacrificing herself overall, is it is an inherently misogynistic act within itself perturbed by those who want it to happen. Either way Dany sacrificing herself makes her a plot device, no matter how it happens. It strips away her character and what she represents.

-Dany sacrificing herself as Nissa Nissa is misogynistic in the way it strips Dany down from her character and simply makes her a tool. A vessel used for 'man pain' and only given a role for the man to be the hero. The woman dies so the man can continue on. She dies for the man and that is her only role in this portrayal. Even if Dany 'willingly' made herself Nissa Nissa and allowed it, overall it leaves a bad taste. It paints a narrative that her only use was for another man. A narrative that she was only useful for being a man's 'lover' and murdered in the end. A piece to be used and tossed away once done with.

Let's face the truth here, Dany is Azor Ahai. Her dragons Lightbringer. Dany does not need to be Nissa Nissa, because she already fulfilled the prophecy. Drogo was the sacrifice in this situation instead of Dany. The roles were reversed.

-Dany sacrificing herself (through battle or other means) also paints a misogynistic narrative. Her being a piece for sacrifice strips her of all her qualities; her intelligence, her ability and skill, her overall character arc and what she has done and achieved. It paints a picture that she is only of use to die. It makes everything she has ever achieved and accomplished and learned wasted on nothing. What is the point of her arc and all that she has learned and done if it's all just going to be wasted on her death in the end? Her apparently 'sacrificing' herself?

I do not see anyone discussed more of sacrificing themselves than Dany. And it's sad how people cannot enjoy a deeply written and amazing character without speculating on how they're going to die. It's sad people cannot enjoy Dany just for what she is without needing to make up theories just for how she will die. Why must she die? Why can't she live and have an accomplished and complete arc that results in her eventual happiness?

-The theory that Dany sacrificing herself for redemption after burning a city (like KL) is gross. Season 8 isn't canon, it isn't a part of G.R.R.M's ending. I highly doubt Dany is just gonna go crazy and start massacring people, when that has never been the point of her character and arc. G.R.R.M paints Dany as a HERO. Her narrative arc overall is that of a heroic one (but that doesn't have to include self-sacrifice done as a 'heroic' or 'redeemable act' either). G.R.R.M has also already denied a theory speculating Dany burning down the Water Gardens, why would he have her burn down KL instead? It makes no sense and would be a very ooc thing for Dany to do (no matter the circumstances). It is again, misogyny, to believe that Dany would just suddenly go crazy and burn shit, only to be able to 'redeem' her actions later by sacrificing herself and getting killed. If I needed that shit of an idea as an arc for Dany in the books, I might as well just ring up D&D and ask them to finish the books instead.

-Dany sacrificing herself to atone for the 'sins' of her ancestors/bloodline is also just as bad. What sins have her ancestors committed that she needs to atone for? I'd say most of her blood already atoned for their own sins given the tragedy that befell many Targs throughout the years. It does NOT fall on Dany to 'atone' for what her ancestors have done by sacrificing herself. There is the saying 'not to judge a person by the sins of their family'. Dany is not her family. She does not need to 'atone' for any sins. I'd say she's already doing a pretty good damn job of it already by upending the slavery economy, and being the person that she is- kind, compassionate, etc.

-As for theorizing she will sacrifice herself because there is no other vision for her death- again, I ask the question: why does she need to die at all?

Dany doesn't need to sacrifice herself. I doubt her arc will lead to that for her end. She is TPTWP, Azor Ahai. Her role against the Others will be one of triumph, not death. Dany is fire, she is life, she is Mother. There would be no point in her entire narrative arc, or even her written existence for that matter being raised up as such a large role, just for her to die in the end through 'self sacrifice'. I am sure many sacrifices will be needed during the Long Night, but Dany won't be one of them.

Let's not forget that Dany is the only person to

-First learn of the Song of Ice and Fire within the books

-Bring dragons back from extinction into the world

-Upend the slave trade/economy to help those enslaved

-Walk through fire to hatch dragons from stone

It is not her role to simply be used and traded off as some pawn for sacrifice. Her role is much bigger than just that. Dany is one of the main central characters within ASOIAF, she is the Fire in the title: A Song of Ice and Fire. Her role is not to sacrifice herself to the Others, but to end the coming darkness and bring Spring.

Dany is a hero, and she will continue to slay. Stay mad about it.

[visenyaism]

i'm desperately interested in your lannister in the walls symbolism essay if that's something you would like to share

you know what i would. like all my summer 2022 notes app archival material it is both deranged and very informal. but i had just read cersei i affc for the very first time and i was convinced i was cooking something up. Here’s the intro the rest of it is under the cut so it’s not a scrolling nightmare:

so my like big tinfoil theory ab this so far is that the walls and tunnels of kings landing represent like the cataclysmic institutional rot that will destroy the city because said rot is also the truth of it. The little birds who convey the truth to varys while also representing how fucked up this place is because they’re child servants with their tongues cut out. Also like how the doom of valyria was in its walls because the enslaved were literally in there and bc that evil was institutional. Also like the rot that consumed tywin lannister whole cause he’s kings landing in microcosm or whatever. the doom of kings landing is quite literally in the walls cause of the wildfire, and because it’s wildfire it is also LITERALLY the doom of valyria. Just like the Doom was a lot of fireworks but it’s real downfall was the true extent of its rot filling every space in the walls and under the empire, the walls and tunnels of KL are also the Lannister Cognitive Dissonance Basement.

Tywin’s Hypocrite Tunnel reveals the truth of who he was the entire time. Tyrion learns the worst truth of his life in the tunnels, and then comes up thru the Hypocrite tunnel to kill his dad and also he decides to be evil while he’s down there because he thinks that’s the truth about himself, that the rot is also his. But that’s like our mini doom of valyria, that everything tywin hated about himself as well as the people he wronged he shoved underneath the city until it came up and explosively killed him.

Cersei starts her flop for crows arc by in tandem refusing to go into the tunnel or think abt its purpose while refusing to acknowledge any of her father’s flaws. The Tyrion in her head that’s taunting her about being in the walls is the same voice that’s confronting her abt the truth she is repressing abt her father. She knows her doom is in the walls and under the city, but she thinks it’s tyrion when actually it’s the threat of every single truth she has ever repressed to form her delusional worldview coming back to destroy her (the truth that the rot is hollow and pursuit of tywin’s kind of power means nothing but self destruction and also that her mirror was the one who might kill her and not the brother she thinks is different from her in every way). I dont think shes going into the walls until it’s time for her to blow the city up tbh. apocalypse!!!!

Side note: the tyrion in her head being cersei especially is so. like for the past three books we have been told that cersei lannister’s main trait is her pride and vanity. and then you get to her first POV and it’s immediately clear that everything she hates about herself, her father, and the world she attributes to tyrion and everything she likes about herself she assigns to something she inherited from her father, something jaime should be, or both. queenhood and womanhood and her own body are just coffins her family has stuffed her in to fit their own needs. For cersei, the body is a construct just like the Red Keep is, and it is a prison!!! it’s the cage they kept the lions in under Casterly!!! The power she’s constantly chasing after is just the ability to be taken seriously in her own right, respected as a person and not a woman (which to her are antonyms). What presents as her pride and vanity from the outside is actually just a constant battle against the reality that cersei lannister doesn’t really exist because she has absolutely no stable sense of identity and is just as empty as the rest of her family!!!!

Back to the walls: Jaime has a running theme where he can only speak or think the truth if he’s underground, like harrenhal bath moment or taunting catelyn abt bran and the incest in the riverrun dungeon or telling tyrion about tysha in the black cells or his dream in the cave with brienne where he’s like it’s dark out so i can tell the truth abt her being a beauty and a knight. It’s the same with the tunnels. He starts HIS flop for crows arc going in first to the Tywin Hypocrite Tunnel, and has to confront the truth that he doesn’t actually know his brother like he thought he did, or his sister, or his father, or himself really. Also that he’s kind of responsible for their father’s murder. ALSO he finds a dragon mosaic that he thinks is rhaegar, telling him “I know you, kingslayer.” He has SO many repressed truths come up in this tunnel, but he just comes out and is like lol who knows what’s down there not me whoever did this could still be down there look out.

Not that it would’ve been smart to tell Cersei the truth, but it definitely indicates that during Jaime’s feast arc he will not be confronting anything unpleasant because he doesn’t want to. Pushing the truth of yourself away and into the walls and under the city means you can be somewhere (the red keep) without really being there at all, which I think is the connection to Jaime’s dependence on dissociation and going away inside and his relationship to institutions. The details of why he didn’t say anything about the wildfire aren’t super clear but I think him hunting the pyromancers but leaving wildfire in the walls is representative of the fact that on some level deep down he believes in false knighthood, that you really can solve institutional rot if you are Good, if you do enough Heroic Sword Violence to the right people. Lady Stoneheart is in a cave or something I think so that’s his big underground inability to repress anymore-related downfall looming.

So anyway TLDR: Cersei’s right, there’s something those walls and under the city that’s going to destroy them all. It’s not tyrion lurking, but like the irrepressible truth that the rot and evil at the heart of the red keep has eaten it whole, and that the Lannister legacy and conception of power propped up by violence and intimidation is just hollow. That’ll get them because that singular truth is enough to crumple everyone’s self-concept and is too much to overcome even with the Lannister dedication to cognitive dissonance. Which is why I think Cersei blows it up when she gets to the point where she cannot lie to herself abt shit anymore. If twow drops and actually joncon ends up starting the Great King’s Landing BBQ of 301 AC i actually didn’t say any of this😌

[helaenathequeenmaker]

House of the Dragon's treatment of Dreamfyre is making my blood boil in my veins. They started by claiming that the three eggs from which Daenerys's dragons will later be born are from Syrax; too bad that since reading F&B a rather popular theory has arisen in the fandom that those eggs are *drumroll* from Dreamfyre. It is indeed a theory, but there is a whole lot of sensible speculation behind it full of references and quotations while on Syrax there is no quotation that would lead to such a conclusion (except the words of that clown Ryan Condal LOL). As they fully demonstrated with Daemon's vision, they want at all costs to squeeze the character of Daenerys and attempt to make a retcon of the disastrous Game of Thrones finale, and they certainly have to put the dearest Rhaenyra (and of course her dragon) in the middle of it at all costs

And turning to her, I would really like to understand how she can state so obviously that “Helaena doesn't fly” and “she doesn't care”, having never spoken to Helaena half a time. In general I'm finding the whole characterisation of Helaena absolutely ridiculous, totally robbed of some interesting aspects present in F&B (such as the love for her of the smallfolk, her loving relationship with her children, her diplomatic skills and of course her dragon, Dreamfyre) that could easily have been expanded upon. All of this has been completely erased in order to provide us with a magical subplot (it's a pity that the Dance already features a character with prophetic abilities LOL) in which she is a dragon dreamer, but the only dreams she can interpret with disarming accuracy are those related to Aemond but not to the death of her son

Apparently in fact Helaena not only doesn't fly but hates it (!!!). So I wonder why she decided to bond with a dragon in the first place (her family regardless considers her weird, so LOL), and certainly not a little puppy. Dreamfyre is in fact the second oldest dragon after Vhagar, is therefore of considerable size and seems to have a rather short-tempered and fierce temper, as shown by the way she approaches Aemond in the first season. It therefore remains a mystery how the sweet little innocent Helaena (as they insist on portraying her) decided to claim Dreamfyre (but in general to own a dragon) and succeed in such a feat

In F&B Dreamfyre and Helaena share a rather strong bond, as the dragon senses the death of her rider and manages to break the chains that held her bound. Martin recently wrote that flying Dreamfyre is the greatest joy in Helaena's life (and I thank him infinitely for that); a joy that was robbed from her after B&C, a traumatic event after which Helaena was unable to take care of herself and her surviving children, to the point where she and her dragon posed no threat. In F&B it is repeatedly pointed out how Helaena's possible military involvement with Dreamfyre could have helped the Greens (especially after the Seeding and the taking of KL), but apparently here Helaena does not want to fight because she is aware of how it will all end

By now House of the Dragon has made so many changes that I wouldn't have minded seeing her go down in battle and avenge her son's death (the same for Rhaenyra of course), but apparently Helaena can't do anything meaningful outside the dreamlike sphere of her dreams. Even this supposed dissociation following Jaehaerys' death I do not find dealt with at all, as I find Helaena's behaviour exactly the same before and after this tragic bereavement. The way they characterised Helaena would feel more sorrow for the death of her insects than of her own son

[catofoldstones]

(Rhaegar Frey - jonos frey, rhaenyra and cersei historical parallels,direwolf and the stag foreshadowing in the prologue,a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair=purple wedding, duncan the tall and brienne parallels, the rule of 3s prevalent in the story including shireen in twow )

fandom at large : brilliant foreshadowing and parallels we're so smart :D

fans : ashford theory + jonnel and sansa having reversed parallels in story would make some sense

Fandom at large : ......its just a coincidence you guys are reaching :/

Jonsas were reaching when they said that Sansa will go North in the books. Jonsas were reaching when they said that Sansa will be the QiTN in the show. Jonsas were reaching when they said that there will be no Targ restoration. Jonsas were reaching when they said a Dark! Dany will burn KL. Jonsas were reaching when they said Sansa and Arya will come back together as sisters and as a team. What are you saying anon? We have always been reaching.