#but I also think Rhaegar WOULD absolutely just quit after fucking up bad enough

[reddslym]

Rhaegar on the Quiet Isle assuming he washed up there before his rubies did: Fuck, I couldve just set Rhaenys or my potential baby sister up with whatever son Brandon and Catelyn had instead of running off with Lyanna.

Welp, back to playing this high harp I made outta driftwood and hoping it all works out in the realm's favor anyway

[ghostofbambifanfiction]

Can you be more specific on why you like Arya and Sansa? So many people like Arya for being strong and fierce, but for some reasons so many hate Sansa for what she was like in the earlier seasons. Can you give specific instances why you like both of them? And why not Daenerys? Thanks! (I'm just really curious, please indulge me :) )

I’m going to talk about Dany first (and I’m sticking to the show here, though I have read the books, but they’re never getting finished, let’s be real), and then I'll put my thoughts on Sansa and Arya in another post (hey, you asked, so I’m delivering) because otherwise this will go on forever and it’s cleaner this way. Putting a ‘read more’ here because this is long (lol I’m at work I should be working)

To preface, I would not dislike Daenerys as much as I do if she didn’t want to be queen. I’ll touch on this when I talk about Arya, but I appreciate characters who have the self-awareness required to know who and what they are. Since Daenerys does want to rule Westeros, I have so many issues.

I also think the eighth season is going to see her turning on most of the people she’s currently allied with and I think the catalyst for that is the discovery that Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and therefore his claim to the throne supersedes hers. I’ll gladly admit that I’m wrong if I am, but right now I don’t think I am. Here’s why.

1) She is an ineffective ruler

After Dany liberated the slave cities of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen, she stayed to rule and did a terrible job of it. Nobody in particular was better off, the majority of the slaves she freed were homeless and scraping for food in mess halls, and she killed elders who had spoken out against slavery without even listening to what any of them had to say. She has the mind for conquering, not for ruling.

(side note: why does she even want to be queen? It’s something she just seemed to jump on in season two without ever reasoning it out, and from there on in it’s like an obsession that has grown inside her. Now she says she wants to make the world a better place but she hasn’t the skills to do it. It should be enough for her to liberate oppressed societies and allow somebody qualified to fix them. But it’s not.)

The truth is, Meereen saw no real improvement until after Dany skipped town on Drogon, because Tyrion had the idea to replace the slave trade with actual trade. He made changes that impacted the city’s economy and allowed its residents to start supporting themselves, so of course, the slavers attacked just as Dany came back, at which point her bright idea was to decimate an entire armada when she needed ships. Tyrion had to talk her out of it. Which brings me to her next point.

2) She requires constant babysitting

It’s ironic to me that Tyrion told Cersei that “the difference” between Cersei and Daenerys is that Dany knows herself well enough to hire advisors who tell her not to do dumb, impulsive things, firstly because that is such a low bar, Tyrion! There are people out there (Sansa) who do not require that kind of monitoring! Secondly because Cersei is far more self-aware than Dany.

Cersei knows that the things she does are bad and does them anyway because fuck it, she knows she wants power for power’s sake. Dany has such a narrow view of justice that actually thinks she’s being righteous when she burns people to death (more on that later) and that is the most dangerous mindset a leader can have. Compare that, if you will, to Sansa, who quite sensibly told Arya that chopping off heads might feel good but that’s not the way to make people work together. Jorah, Tyrion and Jon have all had to speak out against Dany’s more violent predilections and she’s fast running out of people she wants to listen to. She and Tyrion are certainly hanging on by a thread. Which brings me to my next point.

3) She mistreats her own Hand

The relationship between Dany and Tyrion absolutely reeks of Aerys and Tywin, their respective fathers, who were the best of friends until Aerys’ jealousy and paranoia forced them to opposite sides of a bloody war. Dany is all too happy to take credit for Tyrion’s best ideas when they work (and he is happy to let her) but as soon as one of his plans go wrong she whirls on him and berates him like he’s a piece of trash. Everything’s his fault when a plan goes wrong.

When he brought up the matter of the succession she accused him of plotting her death with his brother, which not only is batshit insane but proves that Daenerys gives far less of a shit about the future of Westeros than she claims to, because if she cared that much, she’d care about planning to carry on the legacy she wants to build. She can’t seem to forgive Tyrion for the heinous crime of…loving his siblings? Trying to broker the most peaceful end to the war? Not wanting his brother to die?

Honestly, her treatment of Tyrion is one of the most telling aspects of her character and I am aghast that nobody seems to be talking about it.

4) Like all of the maddest Targaryens before her, she gets off on burning people

This one isn’t subtle at all. Sorry to drop the intellectual veneer for a moment but she fucking loves that shit. It doesn’t bother her a whit to watch people scream as they’re being burned alive. She takes pleasure in burning people, you can see the satisfaction on her face, and a good leader should never take pleasure in something like that.

(FYI people like to mention how Sansa smiled when Ramsay’s dogs ate him when I make this point and to that I blow a raspberry. That was her personal moment of justice against her rapist and abuser, not the lord of some house who wouldn’t submit to her, there is no fair comparison)

Dany was smiling like a satisfied cat when she burned down the temple of the Dosh Khaleen and killed everybody inside it, which was something she did to seize power, by the way. She didn’t do it to stick it to a bunch of misogynists, though I’m sure that was an added bonus. She did the exact same thing Cersei did to the Sept of Baelor and for the exact same reasons, yet only one of them is painted as a villain by the viewing public even though you can argue that Cersei was also sticking it to misogynists when she killed the High Sparrow. The only reason for that is that Dany was given humble origins while the narrative told us that Cersei was bad from the very beginning.

Theon is still beating himself up for killing and burning those two farm boys — as he should. Stannis burned his daughter and everyone was horrified. Jon was so repulsed to watch Mance Rayder burn that he defied Stannis and shot him in the heart. How many times is the show going to have to tell us that burning people alive is a terrible act of evil before people stop cheering Dany on for it? When Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell, he understood and felt the weight of executing a man. Jon feels the weight of it, too, as we’ve seen on a couple of occasions. Sansa clearly thought long and hard about executing Petyr — that’s what her moment of reflection on the battlements was meant to show us. Dany just… doesn’t care. I think she cared a bit when she had Daario execute Mossador, but I can’t think of any other occasion where she has been directly responsible for a death and been remotely bothered by it.

So. yes.

I think the reason a lot of people – and in particular a lot of women – support Daenerys is because she has a girl power narrative. She does have a girl power narrative, it’s true, but that is not a good enough reason to support a character who on so many occasions has proven herself to be unqualified for the job she wants, not to mention bordering on dangerously unhinged and increasingly paranoid. In that sense I think her season 1 narrative was genius, because her origins and the way in which she started to gain power (as well as her gender) has granted her a kind of automatic forgiveness for behaviours that several male characters – and Cersei, most importantly, because she also has a girl power narrative (and she and Dany are two peas in a pod) but the show told us she was a baddie from episode one – would be dragged through the mud for. And I’m sorry, but it’s not good enough for me. I’m not going to support a powerful female character just because she’s a powerful female character who did some good things once. Powerful women can be good or bad.

Some other points re: Daenerys

The dragons are weapons of mass destruction and need to be killed. They’re nukes with wings. She’s burned her own people with those monsters because fire doesn’t fucking differentiate. Sorry not sorry.

The Targaryens are literally GRRM’s interpretation of the Aryan race. It’s practically in their name.

“I have tried to make it explicit in the novels that the dragons are destructive forces, and Dany has found that out as the tried to rule the city of Meereen and be queen there. She has the power to destroy, she can wipe out entire cities, and we certainly see that in Fire and Blood, we see the dragons wiping out entire armies, wiping out towns and cities, destroying them, but that doesn’t necessarily enable you to rule – it just enables you to destroy.” – George R R Martin, folks.

One of the show’s directors, Jack Bender, made a reference to Hitler when talking about her. He said we should be “horrified” by her. No shit, Jack. No shit.

“Do you wonder if the gods ever get lonely?” Just… this line. Get a grip, woman.

[thundersnowstorm]

Anonymous asked: I loved your RobbxRhaenys fic! How do you think the pairing would work if Rhaegar had won? Is he a ward like Theon, is she a bastard? Do they hate each other?

(posted as a regular text post bc tumblr fucked up and i lost the original ask)

ahh nonny thank you so much!!

i actually have a whole rhaegar wins au planned out in my head (maybe i’ll write some of it at some point, first i gotta finish the crownless fic follow-up oneshot). but here’s a general run down of how robb x rhaenys might play out in this world.

under the cut since this turned out wayy longer than expected

basic premise: rhaegar kills robert at the trident and wins the war. meanwhile in king’s landing, jaime still kills aerys when his madness gets too much, or when he reveals the caches of wildfire. tywin stays carefully neutral throughout the war. upon returning to the city, rhaegar is crowned king. lyanna still dies in childbirth.

rhaenys and aegon are legitimate. show canon and i do not get along lmao. jon, the semi-acknowledged bastard of the king, is taken to winterfell to be raised because elia is not risking another blackfyre rebellion, and ned wants lyanna’s kid to be raised in her home. rhaegar is just guilt-striken enough over lyanna’s death to allow it. 

jon visits king’s landing on occasion as he gets older. he and rhaegar have a weird relationship (there’s a lot of angst there, a lot of unresolved issues). jon and aegon do get along though, which everyone is secretly relieved about. it takes rhaenys longer to warm up to jon. she remembers the rebellion, she remembers how hurt her mother was when rhaegar dropped everything for lyanna. rhaenys has never quite forgiven rhaegar. eventually, with encouragement from aegon, she strikes up a tentative friendship with jon.

with lyanna, brandon and rickard dead, house stark has suffered enough and rhaegar lets them go without asking them for much more. however, robb is asked (ordered) to visit king’s landing when he gets older. everyone has suddenly realized that house stark is a much bigger power than previously thought, and it’s a good idea for the iron throne to stay on good terms with the future warden of the north.

(by contrast, jon arryn is sent to the wall at the end of the rebellion. he didn’t have the advantage of being related to the new king’s dead lover to save him. the vale is passed down to harry hardying with one of the lords acting as regent. in the stormlands, stannis bends the knee and becomes lord. he marries cersei and it is the single most entertaining marriage in westeros.)

still, despite all the work queen elia and jon connington and the rest of the small council put into repairing relations with the north, they remain very frosty. ned certainly never forgives rhaegar. he’s not about to go to war again, but he’s also never going to step foot in king’s landing again. robb grows up with a distinctly antagonistic view of the iron throne, and the belief that it’s better for the north to keep to itself and stay out of politics of the realm. still, his childhood is more or less the same as it was in canon.

rhaenys is a force to be reckoned with at court. she grew up at her mother’s elbow, learning the nuts and bolts of ruling, how everything happens behind the scenes. oberyn taught her how to fight with a dagger (same as in crownless), as well as a few tricks to suss out people’s secrets. when she visits dorne, she watches doran, compares his style of ruling to her mother’s, to her father’s. if westeros had absolute primogeniture, rhaenys would make a formidable queen. as it is, she is aegon’s number one pick for hand for when he eventually takes the throne, scandal be damned.

her circle of friends is certainly an interesting mix. myrcella baratheon (a bit older and an actual baratheon this time) and margaery tyrell are conventional ladies in waiting, but they’re also both vying for aegon’s hand. meanwhile the sand snakes are the terror of the court and oberyn thinks it’s hilarious. rhaenys thinks tyene should stop pretending to poison mace tyrell. when arianne visits - well, things can get interesting. no one can quite tell if tyrion lannister and princess rhaenys hate each other or not, but their debates are certainly fun to watch. 

(hmm, maybe theon also ends up in king’s landing. robert trusted ned to watch over him in winterfell but rhaegar and ned have a very different relationship. idk where i’m going with this train of thought, but it would certainly add a new dynamic to rhaenys’s little court.)

rhaenys is not betrothed. it’s unusual, and people have started to comment on it. she is one and twenty and the most eligible woman in the land. there’s quite a bit of interest for her hand, but elia has decided that rhaenys will have a say in her marriage, and rhaegar oscillates between not caring much about the matter and toying with the idea of marrying her to aegon, in the old tradition. rhaenys has told him that if he even tries to marry them, she will elope with the first man she can find and wouldn’t that be quite the scandal? so rhaenys remains unmarried.

(the biggest difference in rhaenys here from rhaenys in the crownless fic is that here, rhaenys knows power. not only was she born into power but she has grown into it as well. she will do her duty to her family and the realm, but she will not sacrifice her own happiness unless there is no other choice. as practical as she is, marriage alliances are off the table.)

this is a lot of setup to get to robb and rhaenys making out but bear with me lol.

robb goes to king’s landing shortly after turning eighteen upon request (summons) from the throne, accompanied by catelyn, sansa, and arya. it’s skirting on rude for ned not to come, but rhaegar lets it slide. he’s lyanna’s brother, and there’s a lot that rhaegar feels guilty about concerning lyanna. anyway, it’s robb’s second time in king’s landing, but the first time he’d been fourteen and rhaenys had hardly noticed him. now though, there’s a bit of “oh shit he’s hot now” before robb makes it clear he’s only here out of obligation. then rhaenys decides that there’s no reason for the two of them to interact and that is that.

(or is it, asks the author in a leading tone.)

so really, there’s no reason for robb and rhaenys to speak to each other. rhaenys is busy with a discrepancy in taxes coming from the vale, and robb is busy trying to avoid southroners at all costs. but circumstances bring them together somehow. maybe there’s a conspiracy afoot, and they have to work together to stop it. maybe rhaenys is forced to show robb around the keep. or maybe rhaenys finds the quiet of the godswood peaceful and robb keeps coming across her there.

“this isn’t a real godswood. not without a proper weirwood heart tree, like the ones in the north.” “mayhaps you can show me a proper godswood someday, my lord.”

really, they have nothing in common, there’s nothing they should have to talk about, but rhaenys finds robb’s frank honesty refreshing after all the double talk at court, and robb thinks she’s probably the cleverest woman he knows. somewhere along the line they become each other’s refuge from all the politics and mistrust of king’s landing.

there’s a feast one day, celebrating some important occasion or whatnot. and there’s dancing and mead, and rhaenys can’t remember the last time she had this much fun. she and robb slip away into the gardens to cool off in the night air and well. rhaenys will blame it on a few too many cups of dornish red but robb’s lips fit perfectly against hers and he tastes like cinammon.

robb panics. this is the princess he is kissing, daughter of the king who brought so much pain upon his family. gods this is jon’s sister, and robb’s father always told him to behave honorably towards women and the thoughts he’s having are certainly not honorable. so robb runs.

rhaenys is furious. well, really she’s embarrassed but anger is easier. for the next week or so she is a nightmare to be around. not that she’d admit to anyone that she’s in a bad mood. meanwhile, robb is moping and hiding from everyone and probably spending most of his time sparring.

jon, who isn’t blind and is absolutely done with them, practically forces robb to talk to rhaenys. he doesn’t care what happened, he just wants the two of them to get over themselves and stop being so insufferable. also rhaenys made one of the goldcloaks cry and no one quite knows how that happened.

so they talk. and robb apologizes for kissing her, which rhaenys is quick to tell him is absolutely ridiculous, she’s the one who initiated it and besides, it was just a kiss.

well, that one kiss turns into quite a few more.

there aren’t really words for what they are to each other. if she were anyone else, robb would probably ask for her hand, but she’s the princess of the realm, not some petty lord’s daughter. and rhaenys doesn’t want to think about putting a label on them, because that would mean thinking about how the two of them fit in the future. and since they aren’t betrothed and king’s landing isn’t dorne, no one can know about their…. whatever.

then rhaegar starts bringing up the subject of rhaenys’s betrothal again. aegon isn’t on the table, since he and margaery tyrell are all but promised to each other at last, but perhaps willas tyrell would do, or maybe harry hardyng in the vale. lady paramount is a perfectly acceptable role for the sister to the future king.

(robb isn’t mentioned as an option. he might be of the right status, but relations between ned and rhaegar are still quite frosty, and the realm still doesn’t quite see the north as equal to the southern kingdoms.)

rhaenys knows, intellectually, that she must marry someday. and really, willas tyrell and harry hardyng are just suggestions. she could always look for a second son for a husband, so she could stay in king’s landing. but she doesn’t want to marry a stranger, and she doesn’t want to leave the city, and the only person she can think of is her cousin quentyn, and arianne would kill her if she married quent.

robb learns about the discussions for rhaenys’s hand from rumors floating around the court. and really, he shouldn’t care who rhaenys marries, it’s not like they’re anything more than good friends who kiss sometimes. or at least, that’s what he tries to tell himself.

he’s not very good at convincing himself.

“marry me,” robb blurts out. rhaenys stops dead in her tracks. “what?”

rhaenys says no. winterfell is about as far as it gets from king’s landing, and she does not wish to be sent away to a frozen wasteland where she knows close to nobody. there is so much she can do at court, so much change she could help affect, and she cannot do that in the north.  

she explains this all to robb and he shrugs. “we could stay in the south.”

rhaenys is not often surprised. this makes it twice today that she has been struck speechless.

robb does not like court, as she is quick to remind him.

“no, but i like you.”

they talk late into the night. the sun is starting to peek out behind the treeline when rhaenys says yes.

(the issue was not that she did not wish to marry robb. quite the opposite. but if she is to be a part of the politics of realm, she cannot do so effectively in winterfell all the time. so they talk, and debate, and eventually a plan is drawn up for where they will reside.)

of course, this is all dependent on rhaegar and ned accepting. robb’s time in king’s landing is drawing to a close, and so he returns to winterfell to ask for his father’s permission. rhaenys goes to talk to rhaegar and elia.

rhaegar is surprised, to say the least. elia, who has been quietly watching her daughter’s flirtation-turned-courtship for the past months, is not. in the end, the discussion is rather short. robb stark is heir to one of the great houses, and the iron throne desperately needs better relations with the north. there’s little to oppose.

ned, on the other hand, is more reluctant to bind the starks to the royal family so officially. he loves his nephew dearly, but he cannot forget the circumstances under which jon was born. but robb seems to care for this southron princess, and catelyn is right, they cannot try to stay out of southron politics forever.

robb and rhaenys are married in the godswood at riverrun, halfway between their families’ castles. for the wedding of a royal princess and the heir to the north, it’s a surprisingly lowkey affair. but robb hardly notices much other than rhaenys, resplendent in dornish silks, and rhaenys for once lets herself forget about the politics and the future, and just lets robb lead her around in a sloppy rendition of the bear and the maiden fair.

(robb is not a great dancer, but he is definitely an enthusiastic one. rhaenys thinks it’s charming.)

it isn’t easy all the time. splitting time between winterfell and king’s landing means endless amounts of travelling, and they aren’t always in the same kingdom together. there are fights, and long nights working, and sometimes the politics at court get to be too much for both of them, but for all their differences, robb and rhaenys love each other. and maybe that’s all that’s needed.

god this got long, and this is really only a sketch of what that scenario would look like. maybe i’ll write a proper fic for this universe sometime, we’ll see.

thanks again anon!

[samwpmarleau]

One thing that I don't get in ASOIAF is the fandom believe Rhaegar would make a great king, but what is exactly his accomplishments beside ToH and played harp?

You’re right in saying that his list of hard accomplishments is rather small. We know of only three tourneys that he entered (though he’s said to have been a consummate jouster, so presumably he did enter others), one of which he lost, one of which took him 12 rounds to win, and all three of which had final matches against members of the Kingsguard, who are known to more or less throw said matches to ensure they don’t injure their future sovereign.

(No one can say he wasn’t in a league of his own when it comes to moping, though. The guy spent extended periods of time alone at haunted Summerhall, the place most of his family died horrifically in a fire, in order to brood and write depressing songs, I mean really.)

However. You have to consider his image.

Until he took off with Lyanna, he was the absolute perfect prince. He was scholarly, which pleased the maesters, but also martial, which pleased the lords. He was handsome beyond measure, he sang songs so affecting they made wolf-blooded Lyanna cry, he wasn’t a womanizer nor did he solicit prostitutes, he was allegedly courting lords to depose his father, he did his duty by his wife and not only had a Targaryen-looking son but also a daughter that could be used for marriage alliances, he did the smart and respectful thing by moving his household to Dragonstone instead of staying in King’s Landing, etc. etc. Even the debacle at Harrenhal didn’t irreparably damage public perception.

Without the benefit of hindsight, well, there was hardly a single thing wrong with him. Maybe a little dreary, but then, Jaehaerys I didn’t exactly sound like he was the life of the party either and he’s remembered as the best king Westeros ever had.

Nearly two decades after civil war ripped the realm apart, singers continue to frame Rhaegar’s liaison with Lyanna as a tale of star-crossed lovers, a tragic romance, two people that just wanted to run away together. Only Robert is outwardly vitriolic, a vitriol that is referred to as a “madness” in him and thus more or less undermined.

All of that is, I believe, why many people in the fandom view Rhaegar so positively, because almost all of Westeros does. He’s the King That Could Have Been. Truthfully, I was of that same mind until a little over a year ago when I started analyzing it all, so I can hardly blame fans who take what the story says at face value since I used to do it myself.

But the problem is that you can’t just take things at face value and say Rhaegar would have been the best ruler since Jaehaerys, because he would not have been. He would have been closer to Aerys I, who incidentally was also obsessed with arcane matters and prophecy to the point of neglecting the realm (though Rhaegar did at least consummate his marriage and have children, which is more than Aerys did with poor Aelinor Penrose).

Best case scenario is if the Rebellion doesn’t happen and Aerys is deposed peacefully, because then Rhaegar is operating under almost unanimous goodwill (even Tywin may be brought back in the fold provided Rhaegar agrees to marry Cersei to Viserys or something). But even then, there’s still the issue of Elia not being able to have another child after Aegon, because no matter what, Rhaegar wants his third head and fast. If he doesn’t opt to kill his wife in childbirth, presumably he decides to go after Lyanna as in the original timeline. In which case even if it doesn’t come to war, he’s still massively pissing off the Starks, Baratheons, Martells, and his own mother. Not to mention that having a child with Lyanna means a bastard, likely one he would then legitimize, and let’s just say the last time there was a Targaryen bastard running around, it didn’t end well. So he’s got that to contend with, too.

But let’s say he manages to smooth things over enough to keep the country going. Barring an extreme personality shift, now that he has his three heads (though I’m not sure how he’d address Jon being, well, Jon, and not his Visenya), he’d be more focused than ever on the Long Night. He’d probably want to bolster the Night’s Watch forces, stockpile food and weapons, train not only his sons for combat but Rhaenys as well, try to obtain and hatch dragon eggs, and plan not for the immediate future but for 17 or so years down the line when the Others come. As we saw IOTL, the current status of the realm is secondary in his mind, because what does the status of the treasury matter if the Long Night isn’t prepared for?

Of course, maybe he’s a better juggler than anyone gives him credit for and he oversees the realm well and plans for the future, but I sincerely doubt it. Based on what we know, he is far more like the aforementioned Aerys I or Baelor the Blessed than, say, Daeron II. Which is something I think the people of Westeros would come to realize quite quickly. Whether Rhaegar’s madness mindset becomes so much of an issue that the people end up wanting him deposed, I don’t know. I don’t think it would get that bad, considering not even Aegon IV was kicked off the throne, but it’s a possibility–if, for instance, his son Aegon grew up in the vein of avuncular ancestor Baelor Breakspear.

I should also point out that this AU means Dany will have never been born, which throws a wrench in things, not that Rhaegar knew it.

And if the Rebellion does happen, well, Rhaegar’s exponentially more fucked. Of those who supported the crown, only the Tyrells were really of note (support that was half-assed to begin with). While Aerys was the one who escalated the situation, there wouldn’t have been a situation to escalate if Rhaegar hadn’t done what he did, and it’s not like Rhaegar would even really be able to reward the loyalists with marriage in the way Robert did since he was still married to Elia and had three kids. People may have considered him better than Aerys, but Rhaegar’s shine would have most assuredly worn off for them. At which point, Rhaegar not only has to keep the realm stable, but stabilize it to begin with. That means concessions up the wazoo and political appointments, plus things like needing to replace the dead Kingsguard and getting rid of all the wildfire beneath King’s Landing. After that, it’s the same as in the non-Rebellion scenario. He’s still going to be much more focused on the Long Night than he is on matters of state, which will put off almost everyone, especially since no one would believe him about the Others.

So no, as far as I’m concerned Rhaegar would not have made a good king, but I can see where fans get the notion that he would (looking at you, Barristan). He would have been better than his father in many respects but worse in others, and his laser focus on something in the distant future that people not Rhaegar, Aemon, or Bloodraven think is a big fat fairy tale would land him at best in disfavor and at worst deposed.

[nineteensixtieschikadee]

Jon x Arya Mini Rant // Stark Reunions // S7, E2 // Book Spoilers

I’m so upset. I’m so fucking upset. And why am I so upset?? It’s because I’ve been impatiently waiting 5 books and 6 seasons for the long awaited JonArya reunion that everyone’s been hyping up since the end of season 6. Honestly, the JonSa reunion was beautiful as well as ironic, (two of the most distant of the Stark kids who really had no relation/affection for each other were forced to ban together as one family.) However the idea of this matter is that the JonSa reunion will never live up to the standards of the book readers. Don’t get me wrong, JonSa is beautiful, however it is problematic. And don’t get me wrong, a whole Stark reunion is on the top of my fucking wish list, but it still doesn’t compare. I feel like honestly, only book readers, only ASOIAF readers will know the real struggling desire to have both Jon and Arya reunite. In fact, they are the two Starks who deserve a reunion. Sansa in the books is still up in the Vale being treated to become a very political figure/manipulator. And Bran meanwhile is still beyond the wall with the 3 eyed raven. And Rickon is at Skagoos with Osha, riding unicorns. But in the books Jon is dead because of his “love” for Arya, and Arya is still in Braavos facing an identity crisis with the Faceless Men because of her love for her family and her “love” for Jon Snow. And whether or not you analyse and believe in the JonArya romantic undertones in the books, you simply cannot deny that these two really want to be together. 

 In the books, Jon and Arya have a very special connection that no other Stark has with each other. And I guess you can also say because it is semi canon that Jon is Rhaegar’s son, and Jon does indeed have a lot of Rhaegar’s attributes, and that Arya is a direct reflection of Lyanna, that this is somewhat symbolic of what Rhaegar and Lyanna’s relationship could have been. (THAT IS IF YOU DECIDED TO INTERPRET JONARYA AS THE ROMANTIC SHIP) Or you can simply interpret JonArya as the platonic/family ship where Jon is Lyanna’s son and Arya is meant to be a direct reflection of Lyanna. And the special bond that Jon and Arya both have with each other is symbolic of the idea of what could have been the relationship between Jon and his mother, if Lyanna hadn’t died. Quite frankly, I like both ideas. Because both are symbolic in parallels between Jon x Arya x Lyanna. Honestly, part of the reason why I love Lyanna is not only do we ambiguously know little about her, but because she is also a direct connection between Arya and Jon. 

 Jon and Arya in Lady Catelyn’s eyes are seen as the two most STARKIEST of the Stark children. And this is part of the reasons why Cat hated Jon. Because of all her children she had with Ned, asides from Arya, Jon was the one who looked and acted most like Ned. Jon despite being a “bastard” was the truest form of Stark than any of Cat and Ned’s children. (Excluding Arya.) Everyone else of N + C children had gained the Tully features. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all have auburn hair and blue eyes. Whereas Jon and Arya have grey eyes and dark brown hair. (Heavy Stark features). This I believe is what attributes to Jon and Arya being the two most closest Stark siblings and the two most genuine companions before/throughout the story of GOT. But one of the mains reasons why Jon and Arya were so close was not because they were the Starkest of the Starks, but because they both saw each other as outcasts. Jon obviously had low self esteem because he was a bastard, and Arya despite being a very strong woman capable of fighting (which most women in Westeros lacked), she was constantly judged by her peers for not being “lady” enough. Everyone, particularly Sansa and Jenye would call her “horseface” and deemed her as ugly and a disgusting little boy. Only Ned and Jon were the ones to call her beautiful. In fact, it was only with Jon Snow that she is able to be happy and free with herself. Jon was the one who pushed Arya to bring out her inner “warrior-princess.” Jon did not judge her for wanting to play with boys and embrace her Stark warrior prowess within her, and Arya never judged or cared about Jon being a bastard. (Honestly sibling goals. *_* ) In fact this is why when Arya asks Gendry to come with her & serve as one of Robb’s Bannerman in season 3 and Gendry says he’s just a bastard, you can see the look in her eyes that she’s heartbroken–just as much as he is. Because she truly doesn’t give a shit about titles and who’s a bastard because this is reflecting her love for Jon. Jon is literally the evidence that Arya doesn’t care about Gendry’s bastard title. In fact, I find it quite symbolic in a way that Jon constantly compares Ygritte (his romantic counterpart) to Arya, and that Arya whenever she is with Gendry (her romantic counterpart) always compares him to Jon. Like tell me that’s not a coincidence? I also find it quite symbolic in a way that yes, Robb, Bran, & Rickon (exclude Sansa) all considered Jon a brother. They all treated him as fair. However as far as titles go, they always had to refer to him as their “half-brother.” Though this is different in Arya’s case. She never considered Jon as a half-brother. Only as a TRUE brother. In fact in the books she corrects people multiple times (particularly Sansa) when people call Jon, her half-brother. In fact when they refer to Jon as that title, it is quick to annoy Arya. (As evidence in season 1 when Arya was defending Jon from Sansa.)

 I also find it quite bittersweet that in the books, Jon fucking died for Arya, and his last thoughts were: “Stick them with the pointy end.” In the show, that plotline went to Sansa, -.- believe me it doesn’t do justice to its counterpart in the books. Like the show honestly fucked up the wall/North storyline so bad. Anyway, in the books when the Pink Letter arrives and Ramsey says that he’s going to marry Arya (Jeyne Poole) to gain access to the North, Jon is fucking PISSED. He knows that Arya hates the idea of being a “lady” and despite her strong demeanor, she would absolutely lose to Ramsey, and he feared her sharing the same bed with him. He also could not see Arya in a fucking wedding dress. The letter continues to say things about what he’s going to do with “Arya” and all other inappropriate things blah blah blah. Jon goes on to save Arya, despite not knowing that it isn’t actually Arya, thus breaking his oaths once again to the Nights Watch. Arya in Braavos struggles to become a faceless man because of her love for Jon. Jon had given her Needle. And Arya has killed people just to retrieve needle when it was taken with her. When Arya is required to throw away all her possessions, she cannot bring herself to throw away Needle. The one thing remaining to her, the one object that defines her as a Stark. It was Jon’s gift to her that made her fail as a faceless man and pushed her to never forget her identity. “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile.” Arya and Jon keep referring back to each other in the books, and honestly, book readers know how much Jon and Arya desire to be together. Just the two of them. Jon wants to take back Arya from Ramsey and watch over her like what he use to do, and maybe teach her how to properly develop her skills as a warrior. And throughout time and time again in the books, Arya doesn’t attempt to go home to Winterfell. She constantly tries to take the journey up to the wall to be with her brother. She doesn’t want to go home. (Well I guess she does…) But she wants to go home to Jon. There up at the wall. Jon was Arya’s home. All she wanted in the books was to be with Jon, and for him to call her “little sister” again and muss up her hair… 😭😭 They are each other’s rock. They constantly think about each other in the books to further push them to survive in the world of asoiaf. They are each other’s smile. They are each other’s home. The two fiercest and closest Wolf’s of the pack. They are the only two that are willing to die for each other, yet they persevere. In a cruel and unforgiving world, they both think of each other to help them strive to survive so that one day, they both may see each other again… 

 So what does this mean for the TV Show? 

 Honestly I was so fucking pissed and heartbroken because the show had been hyping us up for the JonArya reunion. Despite the show fucking up a lot of things from the books, it honestly feels like there ain’t anymore hope left. But it’s the JonArya reunion that helps us book readers to persevere and continue to watch, GOT. After 5 books and 2 more unknowing when to release, the book readers wait patiently for a sign that these 2 are to reunite again. It is the reunion that WE DESERVE. And when they do, you can guarantee, all of us are going to be emotional asf. Cry a river of tears. And I swear it’s going to be the most heart tugging and bittersweet reunion, for the next time they see each other, they won’t understand the physical and emotional changes that they’ve both been through. But despite this, these 2 will still be loyal to each other until the very end. The recent episode of Game of Thrones had me fucking bawling. Because when Arya meets Hotpie again, she is making it her quest to go to Kings Landing to fulfill her list. However the moment Hotpie tells her that Jon has retaken WInterfell, and became the KITN, only then did Arya come to her senses and desired herself to go home… Arya didn’t want to go back home because Winterfell was free again, she didn’t want to go home because Sansa was there. She didn’t Want to go home because she was homesick. No, she wanted to go to Kings Landing to kill the Queen. But the moment she heard Jon, the moment she realized that Jon was home back at Winterfell, was the moment she decided to turn around and head North. She went home because of Jon. She went home because she wanted to see Jon again, to see him smile and for him to muss her hair again. She went home to be with her home. To be with someone who knows will accept her for whatever she was and became. She doesn’t care for Jon being the KITN, she cared that Jon was there and that finally she would be able to see him again. The one person who she truly cared for the most. But I guess D&D have other fucking plans and decided to ruin everything  by having Jon go to Dragonstone the moment Arya decided to head back North…         -______-” 

Okay guys, sorry. I honestly thought this was going to be a mini rant, but it turned out to be longer than I fucking expected… waaay longer. But that new episode had me shook, and I really just wanted to vent out talk about JonArya cause despite the fact that Jon may have left Winterfell, he may come back when Arya’s finally home, so there is still hope. *double crosses fingers*

{{ Also double check later today, cause I’ll be posting some short ass GOT videos, as well as a “mini rant” text post of the whole R x L x E storyline. Also thinking of posting my weekly GOT episode analysis, in particular the Greyjoy battle sequence. My opinions are very strong, sorry. }}  

“DIFFERENT ROADS SOMETIMES LEAD TO THE SAME CASTLE.” –Jon to Arya, (AGOT)

[moonlitgleek]

Say Joanna lives and Tywin dies instead, how does that change things? Would Joanna as regent for the twins go with the double betrothal? Would the twins grow up healthy and happy? Tyrion? Elia?

Note that all of our knowledge about the double betrothal comes from Oberyn who certainly was not privy to whatever correspondence actually happened between Joanna and the Princess of Dorne. The Princess told Oberyn some parts and he filled in the blanks of the story with his observations and deductions, making him not the most accurate source of info. Here’s what Oberyn said about the double betrothal:

“Such a clever dwarf. Elia and I were older, to be sure. Your brother and sister could not have been more than eight or nine. Still, a difference of five or six years is little enough. And there was an empty cabin on our ship, a very nice cabin, such as might be kept for a person of high birth. As if it were intended that we take someone back to Sunspear. A young page, perhaps. Or a companion for Elia. Your lady mother meant to betroth Jaime to my sister, or Cersei to me. Perhaps both.”

Perhaps both. The wording makes it clear that this part is Oberyn’s conclusion and not something his mother explicitly told him. The fact that he was speaking of Joanna’s intentions is an enough tell of how accurate this information is, because Oberyn is not an authority on Joanna Lannister, neither was he privy to what she might or might not wanted.

Personally, I think Oberyn is wrong and that a double betrothal was never in the works. The idea of a double betrothal makes absolutely no sense from a dynastic standpoint, and I refuse to believe that the Joanna simply did not care about dynastic advantages. The political atmosphere of Westeros had been turbulent for years at the time and we’ve seen how the reign of Aegon V and the War of the Ninepenny Kings heavily influenced the political landscape and bred awareness of the power the lords of the realm have and how it could be consolidated into a power bloc against the crown. Joanna was not a political novice; she spent some years at court as lady-in-waiting to then-Princess, later Queen Rhaella and was the trusted confidante of the Hand of the King. She was well aware of the shifting landscape and conscious of the need for alliances, especially as Tywin’s relationship with Aerys was becoming increasingly frazzled. Joanna also lived through the misrule of Lord Tytos and knew how attentive Tywin was to asserting and consolidating the power of House Lannister. In that context, it’s hard to see Joanna planning for a double betrothal to the Martell siblings considering it unnecessarily wastes the potential of a marriage alliance with another powerful family. Besides, Joanna knew Tywin and so she certainly knew how difficult it would be to convince him of one betrothal to the Martells considering Dorne’s significant economic and military disadvantage compared to other more politically powerful families. To think she thought that she could convince him of two does not ring true to me at all. No, I sincerely doubt that a double betrothal was ever in the works, regardless of what Oberyn might think.

But that raises the question of which betrothal Joanna had in mind, which is relevant to the answer of your question. While the order in which Oberyn told Tyrion the betrothals were proposed in OTL (Cersei\Oberyn then Elia\Jaime) could indicate her preference, we simply have no way of knowing if this was the actual order the Princess proposed them in. Indeed Oberyns flipped the order around over the course of the conversation with Tyrion as seen in the above quote. It could be argued that that was the correct order of the suggested betrothals because the rejection of Elia as a bride for Jaime came with the “insult” of offering Tyrion instead, which certainly would make the Princess of Dorne far less prone to suggest another match to the man who just insulted her, whereas the refusal of Oberyn as a husband to Cersei did not come with an insult, despite how brusque Tywin was. But even if that was the correct order, was that the Princess’ own initiative? Or did she and Joanna previously agree on Cersei\Oberyn as the preferable or the more-likely-for-Joanna-to-convince-Tywin-of option? We just don’t know. We have no idea what the extent of Joanna’s involvement in how things played out was or even if she and the Princess agreed on a match rather it being a general idea of betrothing a Lannister to a Martell. Whatever theory anyone has is only conjecture based on minimal information but I fell down the rabbit hole thinking about this so why not make you suffer through it? Under a cut because no one has ever accused me of being brief.

The main point that we need to examine before we come up with any theory is Joanna’s motivation to arrange the betrothal. Here’s what we know: a maid at Casterly Rock caught Jaime and Cersei experimenting sexually sometime before Tyrion’s birth and the Martells’ visit. She notified Joanna who took measures to separate the twins by changing the location of Jaime’s room and appointing a guard on Cersei’s, and threatened the twins that she’d tell Tywin if they repeat whatever they were doing. If Oberyn’s info is accurate, there was some form of correspondence between Joanna and the Princess of Dorne around that time in which they plotted to have one of the twins betrothed to one of the Martell siblings. Oberyn noted the presence of a nice cabin meant for someone of high birth prepared on their ship, meaning that the plan was for whichever Lannister was getting betrothed to a Martell to return with them to Sunspear to foster as part of the betrothal agreement, which falls in line with Joanna’s attempt to separate the twins and ensure they cease their sexual contact.

If we accept that the betrothal is linked to one of the twins being sent away, this could suggest that the twin in question was Cersei. Girls don’t get fostered in Westeros unless it is a part of a betrothal agreement or a hostage situation\attempt to settle bad blood between two families, as evidenced by the low number of fostered girls we hear about compared to the boys, and how pretty much all of them were either sent away as a part of a betrothal agreement, or as a hostage for their family’s good behavior, or a mix of the two. Comparatively, in the case of Jaime, there was simply no reason for Joanna to go to the trouble of arranging a betrothal so she could send him away. Fosterage is a common practice for boys and so Joanna did not need a betrothal as a pretext for sending Jaime to serve as a page in Dorne. In fact, if a betrothal to Elia was to happen, it’d be more common for Elia to foster at Casterly Rock instead of Jaime going to Dorne. Actually, a betrothal to Elia would make it extremely unlikely for Jaime to be fostered in Dorne since this runs the chance of him becoming too attached and sympathetic to his wife’s family and later lavishing offices and honors on them, something that neither Tywin nor Joanna would be willing to risk, especially in light of recent history. The ghost of Ellyn Reyne and how she “made it rain inside the Rock all year” by filling the Rock with her kin, and later used House Lannister’s gold to elevate her house, had not yet left the Rock, and it definitely had not left Tywin or Joanna.

A deeper examination of what Jaime being fostered in Dorne would mean further proves how improbable it is that it was him that Joanna planned to send away. First of all, it’s hard to think that Joanna was under any illusion that Tywin would agree to sending his heir, the future of his house and a main part of his vision for the legacy and future of House Lannister, to Dorne of all places. Second, Joanna was no novice when it came to politics, she knew the importance of political image and the possible consequences of it deteriorating as she lived through the dwindling of Lannister name and power under Lord Tytos. She definitely knew that a boy’s fosterage could influence his image in the eyes of his future vassals (hence Aegon V being considered “half a peasant” because he spent time with the smallfolk over the course of his squiring for Ser Duncan the Tall). Jaime being fostered in Dorne runsthe risk of him being dubbed too-Dornish by his future vassals, especially if he showed favor to House Martell or picked up the Dornish fighting style. And that’s without talking about how choosing House Martell of all the noble houses in the Westerlands and Westeros would raise more than a few eye brows considering the limited political advantages Dorne could offer, the difference in culture, and how deep the prejudice against Dorne runs.

And if Jaime could not be fostered in Dorne but the betrothal was for the purpose of sending one of the twins to foster there to ensure their separation and the end of their sexual experimentation, that means Cersei was the one meant for the betrothal.

But Cersei was meant for Rhaegar, as per Tywin. Joanna must have known that considering how close she and Tywin was, and she surely recognized that a Martell second son can not compare to the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms. But maybe Joanna was not on board with Tywin’s plans for Cersei? Joanna suffered from public humiliation and repeated brazen sexual assault at Aerys’ hand, something that neither she nor Tywin could do anything about or had any way to stop except by avoiding being around Aerys completely. Indeed Joanna stayed the fuck away from the capital once she was dismissed from Queen Rhaella’s service because of Aerys’ sexual advances. Aerys had made his desire and obsession with Joanna quite clear, and it’s telling that the biggest rift between Tywin and Aerys was reported after Aerys resided in Casterly Rock for the better part of a year, in close proximity to Joanna. Since wedding Rhaegar puts Cersei, who inherited her mother’s beauty, in close proximity to that sexual predator, Joanna could very well have feared that Aerys would use her daughter as surrogate for her or that his obsession would transfer to Cersei, putting her in a horrifying and dangerous position. So perhaps she was not dead-set on Rhaegar as Cersei’s spouse as Tywin was and just wanted to keep her daughter away from Aerys.

(Though this still raises the question: why the Martells? Yes, Joanna and the Princess of Dorne were friends, but Joanna must have known that she’d have an uphill battle with Tywin to convince him of either betrothal. Dorne is not the best political match there is, and there were plenty of available heirs to Great Houses who made a far greater prize than Oberyn. Perhaps the answer lies with Aerys? His relationship with Tywin was on the rocks by 273 and he had taken measures to undermine his Hand and curb his power. His madness and paranoia were also growing in tandem with Rhaella’s miscarriages and cradle deaths. Aerys had the power to refuse any match Joanna and Tywin made for their children, and perhaps Joanna was concerned that they’d invite his paranoia if they went to one of the more powerful houses? Or that he’d refuse to allow the match if he felt it offered his Hand additional power? House Martell is a prestigious Great House but they have limited military and economic power and so they would not tempt the king into opposing a match between them and the Lannister just for the sake of denying Tywin power. Maybe?)

Holy wall of circumstantial evidence, huh? I know, but we simply have very limited knowledge of Joanna (*shakes fist at GRRM*) and only bits and pieces about the betrothal attempt so I’m basically throwing darts in the dark here.

Anyways, it only took me nearly 2000 words to get here but… now to your question.

If we assume that Tywin died sometime before Tyrion’s birth and the Princess of Dorne’s arrival (erm, some freak accident while he was coming down from King’s Landing to the Rock?), I reckon Joanna would make a betrothal between Cersei and Oberyn, though perhaps after more time have passed after Tywin’s death, as she’d still want to get the twins away from one another since continually having a guard on Cersei’s room is not practical and would eventually raise questions. She would also want to keep Jaime close so he could know his land and people and so he could be present when court is held and train under his uncles. I don’t think there is much of a chance that Joanna would agree to a betrothal between Elia and Jaime, even if we strip the fosterage element and everything else away, because in the wake of Tyrion’s birth and Tywin’s death, Joanna would be overly conscious of her choice in bride for Jaime. We can safely assume that she would not want to risk Jaime’s chances of having plenty of healthy (and able-bodied) children to carry on the family name and secure the inheritance. Elia’s health and age would be seen as a detriment to that considering that the mother’s health affects her chances in carrying a healthy baby to term.

Now if Joanna betroths Cersei to Oberyn and sends her to Dorne as a companion to Elia, how does that affect Cersei? Jaime, Tyrion, the political plot? It’s difficult to say because there are too many shifting pieces, and endless possibilities. For example, how would Cersei fare in Dorne under the tutelage of the Princess of Dorne? She was only 6 or 7 when Tyrion was born and so it’s the Princess who would control her education and largely shape her personality. She would not suffer the emotional abuse and the constant dismissal due to her gender that she suffered at Tywin’s hand and so she’d be remarkably more well-adjusted. Of course it’s not all sunshine and rainbows because she might resent the Princess for taking her away from her home, and Oberyn for being the reason it happened. And what about Oberyn? He was a teenager at the time of the visit to the Rock so would he be content to wait for his child bride to grow up or would he seek other women in the meantime?

Now the good new is: no valonqar prophecy hanging over Cersei. She would not live with the expectation that Tyrion will kill her and so she wouldn’t make it her personal mission to destroy him. And then we’d be talking about a completely different Cersei and a completely different plot.

Those changes also probably butterflies away the Lannister incest and so Jaime does not join the Kingsguard. Does he get betrothed to Lysa? If Elia marries Rhaegar in this timeline, do the Lannisters still stay out of the Rebellion since they’d be stuck between the royalists and the rebels, or would they choose a side? Now if the Battle of the Trident happens in this timeline and the royalists are defeated, chances are King’s Landing goes kaboom.

And Tyrion. I doubt he’d have the childhood he deserves even with Joanna surviving, though he would not be as horrifically abused as he was under Tywin. But the extent of what Joanna would allow him or how exactly she’d treat him is unknown. As is how the incident of Tysha would get exactly handled by Lord Jaime. Tyrion wouldn’t go through the brutal experience of Tysha’s and his rape in this timeline but Joanna would definitely still want Tysha punished but in what way? And what would Jaime allow? We just don’t know.

Possible ripple effects also include Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia. One of the main reasons Aerys chose Elia for Rhaegar in OTL was to limit Rhaegar’s power by ensuring he did not gain the support of a militarily powerful family that could support him against Aerys. But if Elia has the Lord of the Westerlands for a goodbrother, that means that wedding her would give Rhaegar the support of both Dorne and Casterly Rock. Would Aerys’ paranoia and suspicion of the Lannister cool off by Tywin’s death so that he allows it? What would his relationship with Joanna be like anyway? Would he try to force her to return to court? Could he ever reach the point of putting Rhaella aside and making Joanna marry him? Would he use Jaime against her by “honoring” him with the position of royal page or cupbearer to hold him as a hostage against Joanna?

We. Just. Don’t. Know. Pick your favorite fic idea, I guess.

[secretlyatargaryen]

Sansa being praised as a good victim and Sansa fans putting down other abuse victims part 2 (because people keep telling me this doesn’t happen)

Companion to this post.

http://secretlyatargaryen.tumblr.com/post/162004630567/im-so-glad-im-not-the-only-one-who-doesnt-like

i'm so glad i'm not the only one who doesn't like lyanna. tho tbh i hate rhaegar 1000x more. and i absolutely despise how much they're romanticized in the fandom. i still don't understand how 11yo sansa gets so much hate for her dreams and mistakes in the beginning, but not the older, "wiser" lyanna for supposedly running off with a MARRIED southern prince. i mean neither should entirely be at fault bc they were both young girls who imo were taken advantage of, but it's some food for thought.

For now I am not a Lyanna fan at all. I try to sympathize with her and I can’t. I try to find similarities between her and Sansa and forgive her actions but again I can’t. We don’t know a lot about Lyanna so maybe I will change my mind in the future but for now just the thought of her leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

What I don’t understand is how Lyanna gets almost no blame for what happened to her family even though a 11 year old Sansa gets blamed for her father’s death.

http://secretlyatargaryen.tumblr.com/post/70714078551/i-am-loyal-to-king-joffrey-my-one-true-love

Okay, but this is bullshit because Tyrion’s big mouth is always getting him into trouble. He can never shut his sass up. Thus and therefore, Sansa is approximately 1,568% better than ur fave….especially if it’s Tyrion. Ugh.

http://secretlyatargaryen.tumblr.com/post/53455177515/exitpursuedbyasloth-you-should-learn-to-ignore

“You should learn to ignore them.” -Sansa Stark, First of Her Name, the Queen of Survival, the Unbroken, More Alive Than All Your Faves, Protector of Lemoncakes, Patron Saint of Songs and Broken Men

Hey Tyrion, you might want to fucking listen to Sansa right now. Tyrion? Tyrion, are you listening to Sansa? Oh, no, you’re threatening Joffrey’s life right in front of his mother, Tywin, and Varys. Oh, wow, that’s going to end really well for you you are a clever one aren’t you I am sure there will be no unwanted repercussions from that no sir.

https://www.facebook.com/EverythingGameOfThrones/posts/610986598973846

Would you rather she behave like Cersei, or perhaps Margaery? But she is learning fast and is stronger than she appears. Would you be strong enough to keep a straight face when the enemy comes to tell you they slaughtered you mother and brother? Or to keep your mouth shut, not uttering a curse or threat as Joffrey is having you beat bloody? Or to treat him with kindness and respect after he threatens to rape you?

http://www.snarksquad.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-s04-e03-this-fucking-episode.html

I do not think Arya would have lasted as long as Sansa, had she been caught before fleeing King's Landing. I think Arya would have had a hard time keeping her mouth shut and "behaving wisely" and I think she might've got herself killed or tortured by Joffrey.

https://www.accesshollywood.com/articles/game-of-thrones-qa-sophie-turner-on-sansas-escape-146456/

I think Sansa is one of the strongest people because the thing about this world that people don’t realize is that, yeah, there are these cool fighting badasses like Brienne and Arya, but the real easiest way to survive is to keep your mouth shut and do what people want you to do and Sansa’s like clicked on to this and that’s why she’s gone on for so long. People aren’t scared of her, people don’t suspect her. I think it’s a very brave and very intelligent thing to do.

 And if you think about it, Arya, if she had stayed in King’s Landing, she might not be alive, because she wouldn’t have been able to keep her mouth shut.

So Sansa is really the best person to be in that situation if you had to have one of the Starks there.

http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/sansa-stark-feminist-superhero?page=232

Because, while Sansa still initially falls into the problematic “traumatized woman” trope, she ends up breaking it by handling her trauma in a way that most characters like her do not. She doesn’t become a hardened warrior, or hide behind fire-tongued abrasiveness. How many female characters do we know that hide behind spunk, brashness, and typically “male” behaviors to cope with their feelings of hurt or abandonment?

http://artnalism.com/game-thrones-sansa-stark-apology/

Consider this though: Arya’s tendency to action and violence would have had her killed in King’s Landing. Sansa stayed alive because she knew there was no way to escape without help – and she’s not given enough (or any) credit for that. Sansa’s strength comes from her ability to survive.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/124198-why-do-people-hate-the-kick-ass-character-that-is-arya-stark/

I’m not gonna root for [Arya] doing that while she is destroying her soul in the process

http://jaimebrienne.com/topic/30003647/88/

If any of the Starks are going to live, I think it probably will be Sansa. Unlike Arya who's main focus is revenge, she just does what it takes to survive.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/126817-about-sansa-and-arya/

HOWEVER, I believe that Sansa's fate could be more tragic than any of those listed above. Sansa could die, and it may be because of Arya.

[...]

This would mirror innocent Lady being sacrificed in absence of the real culprit Nymeria.

https://www.quora.com/Would-Sansa-make-a-better-queen-than-Daenerys

Dany's arc is one in which a princess who's been brought low gradually rises higher, whereas Sansa's arc is one in which a privileged lady is brought low and must be resilient and creative in order to rise higher and rebuild herself. At this stage of the story, Dany has so much and yet also struggles so much that you might wonder just how much a person could need to finally move. If three dragons, a bunch of sellsword companies and the Unsullied aren't guarantors of stability, what is? If Dany can't figure her stuff out with all of that, then how talented is she? Whereas Sansa has been a prisoner since her father's death and has had to navigate a situation where she's not empowered at all, and while she hasn't completely climbed her way out yet, there are clear signs that she's poised to do so. In terms of direction and overall vision and sense of purpose, Dany has stumbled while having mind-boggling resources, and Sansa has succeeded despite having nothing but her own damn self.

[...]

Sansa is gentle and merciful, wanting everything to be music and lemon cakes like in the stories. Even when she's been wronged, she just wants people to be good to each other, rather than wanting revenge.

Dany has (justifiably or not) burned and crucified people, breaking contracts and seeking vengeance on people who wronged her. She has entered conflicts with no exit strategy, and she's very prideful.

[...]

Sansa would understand and forgive, and not cast them aside for one mistake that this person has already been trying to rectify ever since they realised they were wrong. And last but not least, Daenerys is actually quite evil

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.855926-Game-of-Thrones-Sansa-vs-Daenerys

Daenerys on the other hand almost out the gate is a strong aggressive woman who knows what she wants and is eager to take it. However, this is actually not a point in Daenerys's favor. Sansa has room to develop and change. She can start out as a "stupid little girl" whose head is full of silly ideals such as chivalry and honor, and then she can become a badass political schemer who still holds a bit of a softer side. Where as Daenery's becomes the "mother of dragons" by the end of book one and is so full of piss and vinegar that some people suspect that the only place she can go is crazy town.

[...]

What does Daenerys lose? Kahl Drogo? Really? Khal Drogo was a barbarian warlord who used her as an arian f@#$ puppet. Sure they eventually obtain a more mutual relationship because she can do it cowgirl style, but she doesn't even speak his language for most of the time spent with him. Furthermore, by book 5 she seems totally over him. She is all over her sellsword boyfriend and is even getting freaky with some of her serving girls. Meanwhile, Sansa is being creeped on by a guy who was in love with her mother. Things go far too well for Daenerys.

[...]

Dany on the other hand, despite coming from similar circumstances, is everything wrong with an idealistic person and she only learns lessons and changes when it conveniences her. She's Joffrey's antipode in almost every way, but she's just as bad because she's as flawed as he is.

She isn't even a nice person in person because she's haughty and arrogant and mindful of her rank and her position on top.

https://winterfelland.tumblr.com/post/159370019542/the-pro-daenerys-and-pro-sansa-meta-no-one-asked

if you ever want to write something again with the delusion of not pissing off Sansa fans… don’t you EVER dare write down the fantasy of Daenerys Stockholm syndrome Targaryen who started randomly enjoying being raped every night giving sex advice to  ‘poor Sansa (who) has not had a positive sexual experience yet.’