#odysseus has been sleeping with diomedes the whole time

[azrael-777]

“penelope was spartan!! she’d have short hair for odysseus when he returned so she would seem more masculine to appeal to odysseus more!!”

*loud incorrect buzzer*

(headcanon) once odysseus arrived in troy, penelope received a message from him telling her to not cut her hair and to keep it long. he basically says in the letter that she should just trust him, he’ll be more than fine when he gets home and she has long hair. in the same letter, odysseus mentions how he’ll be “sharing a tent” with diomedes. penelope, having met diomedes, immediately makes the connection that

diomedes has long hair.

yeah, she realizes that odysseus will be just fine with her having long hair when he returns. just fine.

[psy--conic]

Reading the Iliad, Book 10 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

This book is short but does not lack in the entertainment department

Agamemnon can't sleep bc how can he with the war going the way it is?

So he goes out to find Nestor but as he's doing that he runs into his brother Menelaus who also cannot sleep and is doing the same thing Agamemnon is abt to do

Menelaus pitches the idea that they should send someone to spy on the Trojans. However, he's almost sure that no one is going to want to do this job bc its super dangerous

Agamemnon agrees bc the very thought of Hector is making him sweat hard asf

So they split up to gather a council. Agamemnon says he'll get Nestor and tells Menelaus to grab Ajax (Greater), Idomeneus, Meriones, and Nestor's son.

I don't think they say the name of Nestor's son in book 10 or maybe they said it in an earlier book bc I don't know who tf Nestor's son is lol

But Menelaus asks "Um where tf am I supposed to meet you after I'm done??" I really like how NO ONE clears anything up unless asked too

They decide to meet back at Agamemnon's tent

Agamemnon ends up scaring the shit out of Nestor when he enters his tent.

Nestor's like 80 you can't be scaring him like that😭

Nestor suggests they grab Dio, Ody, Ajax (Lesser), and Phyleus for this meeting too

Then Nestor starts shit-talking Menelaus out of nowhere???? LMAO😭😭

"Ur brother's so fucking lazy lol, we still need to get Ajax and Idomeneus but they're on the other side of camp." -Nestor

Why is he acting like Menelaus hasn't been pulling his weight this WHOLE time? Hello?

Then Agamemnon says "You're right as always buuut Meneluas is doing that very thing as we speak so..."

Menelaus catching strays this book ig

Odysseus gets super pissy at Nestor for waking him up so I'm going to assume he's one of those ppl who are just in a bad mood after being woken up. He doesn't seem to be a morning person at all

Nestor shouts at Diomedes to "WAKE UP." A complete 180 from how he woke up Odysseus btw

"Why are u yelling at me?" - Diomedes

After everyone is rounded up in Agamemnon's tent Nestor presents their plan in a way that really told me a lot abt his character

He's like "Hmmmm I wonder who would be willing to spy on the Trojans for us? It has its risks ofc but think of the glory he'd receive upon his return, all the gifts? All the men will ask him to their feasts" (it's a feast not the fucking prom💀)

I really like the way Nestor says it. I can just imagine having been a young man himself at one point he knows how to play into the egos of the men around him

Diomedes is the first to jump at this opportunity

But Dio says he needs a partner and everyone stands up to volunteer

But he picks Ody

Jump to the Trojan camp: Guess who had the same plan as Menelaus? Hector, they have like, the exact same plan.

Dolon who is just some ugly guy decides he'll be the Trojan spy

Both teams of spies run into each other

And Dolon starts running for his life

Diomedes and Odysseus end up catching this guy and he automatically starts crying

Ody asks him a whole bunch of questions abt their camp

Dolon is the world's worst spy bc he tells them everything and by the end he asks "You guys are going to spare my life now, right?"

And Diomedes just goes "Nah.♥️" and CUT THIS MANS HEAD CLEAN OFF

They loot his body and give the armor to Athena

Anyways they get to the Thracians who are currently asleep and Ody and Dio see that the Thracians have some nice ass horses

Diomedes kills 13 of them while they sleep, one was a king.

Once it's time to go Athena has to come down and tell Diomedes that it is time to stop and go home. (they take to horses)

Apollo watches this whole mission happen and wakes up the Trojans

Dio and Ody make it back to camp, Nestor asks where those nice ass horses and that's the end of the book

[dootznbootz]

Which Greek mythology character would you like to see talked about more?

OHoho. you all already know this.

It's Penelope.

And I am being so fucking serious about it. I'm also sleepy and angry and mother nature is stabbing my gut so I'm putting a lot of my emotions into this ask.

BUT her fangirling, angry, bitchy rant of mine, I will save for the end. (and I'll explain it more down there) Not gonna lie, I will probably be mean. Don't take it too personally. (Some folks I know genuinely love her and have stuff for her. Y'all are fine :D )

I have many other characters I wish would be seen more, but hers rant is ooooh. it's been boiling angrily for a long time and this is the perfect ask to let loose.

Take note: This is more about characters who I feel are either underrated and/or not really given love. It's a whole other can of worms about characters who ARE given a lot of attention but are either fandomized to the point of being unrecognizable or people just...really see them wrong.

Ariadne:

A young princess who helped out Theseus to end the cycle of violence against the youth of Athens. Despite the fact that she was going against her family by helping Theseus she did. When he left her, for whatever reason, she was rescued by Dionysus. In which these two have a loving and healthy marriage. There is so much potential here and it makes me sad that she gets butchered and/or just ignored.

Danae:

She was locked up by her father because of a prophecy that happened anyway. She is now pregnant with Zeus' child. She is then locked into a chest in which she is sent floating in the sea. She washes up on Seriphos. Her son is sent on an impossible quest in order to keep her from a forced marriage. Her story is inspiring and ugh sdkf j badass mama! ;~;

Telemachus:

Got that right here :)

Sthenelus:

Fucking love this lil hotheaded cheerleader man. Go boy, go! He got yeeted by Athena from the chariot. Diomedes and him tell each other that they love each other. Tells off Agamemnon for mocking Diomedes' and his dad. He was a child soldier alongside Diomedes. I love this weird lil guy.

Hephaestus:

It makes me sad how people only see him as the "cuck" of Aphrodite and Ares. (no hate to them. do not hate either of them) He's badass in his own right! He does that bigass fire in the Iliad! And one of my favorite scenes in that epic, is him welcoming Thetis! I think he's neat :D

Hebe:

Ganymede isn't the only cupbearer on Olympus you know.

Menelaus:

I love me a goofy wifeman...But if that's all you see him as, I'm sad. What about the sealy man? (aka him wrestling a god for a while and making him tell him answers) The exiled prince? The younger brother? The angry charioteer who yelled at Antilochus? The man who interfered with his brother's letter to his wife to warn to not bring their daughter? Being the sweet uncle figure for Telemachus? (he and Penelope get a lot of the same treatment in a way. with the whole "just the spouse" ;~; )

Psyche:

I think she's pretty popular, but shout out to her anyway :D Because I love her story a lot.

And last but absolutely not least,

Penelope

Heads up once more, but I'm going to be so fucking mean right now. I'm very tired and runnin on 4 hours of sleep and my tummy hurts. This is all over the place and I'm sad.

I think some of you treat the fact that Odysseus is (rightfully) obsessed with her and adores her as if that's HER personality trait... as while it's adorable to see him simping over her as he does, she's not just there for him (and me) to simp for. In the same vein, I think some of y'all only see her for her love of Odysseus and nothing more. Some folks don't see her as anything more than what she is for Odysseus.

AS IF HER HUSBAND ISN'T JUST AS INTERTWINED WITH HER AS SHE IS WITH HIM!

And yet, there is so much stuff with him about the other people in his life. The other Achaeans, Polites and Eurylochus, Athena, etc. You know Penelope has people in her life other than her husband and her son, right?

Even stuff that's just her, it's usually her weaving the shroud...That still ties back to Odysseus. If you wanna have her weave, maybe have her weave something happily. Maybe her chatting with Anticlea or Athena while she does! Or Helen! or her sister!

There's the saying of "the characters respect women but the author does not" and I'm noticing that a LOT in this fandom. I don't think it's intentional, but it's very telling with what people prioritize in their creations how they feel. (and no, I'm not talking about Homer. He wrote incredible women.)

I'm not saying you're not allowed to have favorites. But even if Odysseus IS your favorite, if you have Penelope so one note or with such weak characterization while having so much for Odysseus, FOR THE MEN WHO HE IS NEAR... It's just really telling.

I've even seen some shit with "Well, there's not much to do with her." as if y'all don't make OCs with less. I've seen people give Astyanax, an AU baby, more characterization than her. (Have him alive in your AUs but if you give him more character than Peenlope, I am side-eying you so hard.)

It genuinely pisses me off how overlooked she is. I hate how her tags are basically empty (honestly? I might start tagging my silliness for her correctly because it has so lil.)

Hey, why do followers of the other tags show up but not for #penelope of ithaca? It's clearly because she has SO many followers/fans that she broke tumblr! Especially with the fact that you can scroll all the way to the bottom pretty quickly! /sarcasm

(btw, before you say something, I know there's no consistent tag for Penelope. I follow many of them. #penelope odyssey is kind of the best bet I believe. #penelope of sparta is mostly about that new show that's coming out and hyping about it. still not about HER. #penelope mostly has some bridgerton character. so yeah. Not much on tumblr)

(shoutout to the artists who got their art on front of the tag! That's exciting! I'm being a mean bitch right now but that's fun and exciting!)

I hate how people see her as so one-note. I hate how she's often just "Odysseus' wife". MOST CONTENT OF HER IS HIM SIMPING OVER HER. (that's something I'm guilty of too! I plan to fix that soon. I have so many wips and so lil time and too high of personal standards because since she has so little content of her, I WILL make it good. I'll TRY to make it good.)

EVEN HEADCANONS! SO MUCH OF FANDOM STILL ONLY HAS HEADCANONS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ODYSSEUS OR TELEMACHUS. GIVE ME SOMETHING ABOUT HER CHILDHOOD. GIVE ME LIL QUIRKS SHE HAS. What does she struggle with? What's her favorite color? Does she like dancing? ANYTHING.

Feelings about how fandom sees her are also summed up by this and this. (Edit: This one too. She's not even dead in the Odyssey but people act like she doesn't exist until Odysseus is there.)

...Do you see my problem? Just one of my problems?

So many people genuinely read the Odyssey and just see her as the "crying wife". People diminish her character and her intelligence all the fucking time. You wanna know something I've noticed? PEOPLE ONLY TALK ABOUT HER INTELLIGENCE WHEN ODYSSEUS IS THERE. Like with how she tricks him and how she tricks the suitors. Nobody talks about the moment when Athena appears as her sister in her dream and she is immediately like "hey, if you're some god, is my husband still alive?" she clocks her as Athena RIGHT AWAY.

People constantly forget her violent thoughts against the suitors! Or when she sasses Telemachus and Euryclea. When she scolds and threatens the maids. (she's not always nice y'all!) Do you really think Odysseus would be obsessed with someone who isn't on his level?

We all know that he loves her. BUT WHY?! "Because she's smart like him." Yeah, we know. WHAT ELSE?

They are Likeminded! Thinking and acting alike! You know how fun that is?!

Homer, you absolute mad lad genius. You made her a mystery to the narrator, Odysseus, and for some reason, people see that as her just being a straight up mystery. You wrote her so wonderfully and so complex with how she is so sneaky in her own way that people are literally tricked by her as readers as well!

Or sadly, more likely, people fucking blackout when she's in the scene and there's no Odysseus. 🙄

Look, even if you have Penelope be the "braincell" who keeps her husband in line, MAKE SURE SHE'S NOT ACTING LIKE ODYSSEUS' FUCKING MOM. They're both grown ass adults for fuck's sake!

Also...please...PLEASE have her be more than a prop for the men around her. I've read some things that could literally have her be replaced by Euryclea, as Penelope is sometimes just used as a sounding board.

I'll be even more bitchier. Even in the OT3 she's commonly in. It wasn't a NOTP until I noticed most creations of that ship was just "Odysseus and this person for 6000+ words... Oh, and Penelope making an appearance in the footnotes." If it's an OT3, they all love each other right? Where's the PenDio fics/art, cowards?

I have a weird theory about how people treat her that way. (other than fandom prioritizing men)

So there's "girlbossing" and "uwu sad victim" that fandom can never seem to leave. I think People do this with Helen and Clytemnestra and that's why THEY are "blorbo-able". (not saying they shouldn't be but they definitely get more love than Penelope)

Helen, despite not always being a victim in her story, has been through so much. Kidnapped and some people blame her for it (irl and some people in canon do blame the war on her). Very easy to cling to. I cling to her too! (she's on the "UwU always victim. tragic blorbo" end)

Clytemnestra, is a victim in the sense that she's a grieving and angry mother and wife. And so she killed Agamemnon. Her violence and anger is seen as "girlboss" despite all the horrible stuff she also did to her children. (she's more on the "girlboss" end)

Penelope, is not a victim to the same degree as Helen nor does she murder anyone (how could she? it was 108 people against her and the Odyssey shows that the suitors' parents were enraged. Even Odysseus was skeptical he could beat them.)

She's not on either end of the "scales" for people to find her "blorbo-able". She doesn't murder her husband or the suitors by herself or is a victim to them in the same way Helen is.

And that's just for people who know her husband didn't cheat. I think with people who think Odysseus did cheat, they hate her because "she let it slide". That she's "weakwilled" for knowing her husband went through literal hell and wanting him to be happy and safe.

Idk, It's a little lonely being one of the few "Penelope crazy" blogs.

I sometimes wonder if people kind of come to my blog in a "Hey, can you love her for me? Can you think about her for us?" as I have seen very little on her childhood for example. It's STILL mostly in relation to others.

It's not even the "sharing ideas" that bugs me. it's the feeling of people not wanting to come up with headcanons/ideas for her OUTSIDE of canon.

"She was in Helen's shadow." Okay, well, how did she feel about it? What did she do about it? Did she hide away? Did she internalize that? Did she find that freeing? To not be the center of attention?

Stuff like that. Dive DEEPER. PLEASE

It makes me happy that people love my Penelope as I love her too, clearly. But I really fucking hope you love the CANON Penelope too. If you think I made Penelope "better" or anything like that, then leave. She's already fantastic on her own.

I want to talk about her more. I want her to be seen more.

[nobody-did-nothing-wrong]

Alright kids, I’ve got something to say.

Spoilers for The Vengance Saga below the cut.

I think this is my least favorite saga. I was super on board with it until Six Hundred Strike but that really killed it for me.

First off no shade to the artists they did incredibly, the animatics and the music and especially the vocal performances were top notch. But I don’t like what it did for the story thematically or with regards to it being a version of the Odyssey.

Like, this is a retelling of the Odyssey, it takes some (several) liberties but they’re all done respectfully and within the context of the narrative being molded to a new format.

Odysseus stabbing Poesidon doesn’t fit into that framework in the slightest. It’s cathartic, I will admit that, and the how will you sleep at night, next to my wife slaps but it’s extremely totally dissonant to the rest of the musical.

There’s a divide between the gods and mortals, even with the electronic instruments being used to represent the gods and mortals getting regular instruments - the implication is clear, the gods are above and beyond what mortals can comprehend at times. Part of the reason the gods, Poesidon, Zeus, even Circe or Calypso are so scary is because they’re immortal and if those problems could just have been solved with garden variety violence why did Odysseus need Hermes, or Athena. Heck, at that point why didn’t he stab Poesidon back in The Storm Saga and save 600 of his guys so they could all get home?

We’ve broken down the barrier that separates mortal from god and even in the Iliad when Diomedes is able to wound Aphrodite or go toe to toe with Ares there’s no question that he will loose because he’s a mortal and they’re gods. Odysseus shouldn’t get away with this, he should be punished on a cosmic level for rising so above his station.

Honestly I just feel let down, I was looking forward to Phaecia and Odysseus lying to get home but it looks like we’re not going to get that. He’s going to girlboss his way out of it and get home on a raft which is so anticlimactic.

I guess I just wish he hadn’t had his little anime protagonist moment where he gets to be better than all the other mortals TM. He’s just a man, that’s the whole point, he has always been just a man and even if he will resort to ruthlessness, even if he has become a monster he’s still a man. He can’t surpass his own mortality, even if he wants to.

[call1me2awesome3]

Chapter 1: The Horse and the Infant

“Alright brothers. Tonight there isn’t defeat allowed. At all. Not one of us is to act a fool, lest they risk us all losing our lives as well as losing this war.”

Odysseus gave orders to his men. His allies and comrades. Around dusk is when they had entered the gates of Troy through the “gift” they had offered the Trojans as a sign of peace. Polites and Eurylochus, sitting next to each other near the backside of the horse, watched Odysseus as he gave strict orders, stoically and seriously. Just an hour ago they were teasing and play-fighting each other out of boredom from staying in the horse for such a long time. Odysseus called out to each one of his men again, double and triple checking that everyone knew what to do.

“Diomedes will lead the charge, Agamemnon will flank the guards, Menelaus will lead our men through the gate to take the whole city at large. Teucer will shoot any ambush attack and Ajax the Lesser will stay back. Nestor, secure Helen and protect her. Neoptolemus, avenge your father and kill the brothers of Hector.”

Odysseus continued with his orders, motivating his men with courageous words. He checked in with the rest of his men also. “Those who I didn’t call the name of, you guys will attack when I tell you to.” Eurylochus, Polites, Elpenor, Perimedes, and four other men who were enough to be in the wooden Trojan Horse, nodded at their captain’s orders and got themselves prepared. Tightening their holds on their swords, ready for whenever their king would scream, “Attack!”

Elpenor, as humorous as he was, made a slight effort to light up the mood, making a joke when it took a little too long before Odysseus told them to attack. “Any day now…” which earned a soft laugh from Perimedes and a fond smile from Polites. Until finally Odysseus yelled: “ATTACK!!”.

Everyone in the horse jumped out (since it’s wood, I’m assuming they used their weapons to break out of it since it was wood) and attacked every sleeping Trojan they saw. After ten long years, it’s finally down.

Odysseus watched his crew proudly as they’ve slain the enemies ruthlessly. His eyes however couldn’t help but wander to Polites, who he mustn’t lie, he was the most proud of. Sure, Odysseus didn’t like being a monster, and he agrees that there isn’t always a solution in waving a sword around, threatening to kill anyone who opposes you. Being best friends with Polites since nine years old has taught him a lot about solving problems without unnecessary violence. But however, he understood that if harming people is what it takes to survive, it must be done. Not to say he is surprised that Polites is fighting so well. He’s been the best at archery since he’s been mentored as a child, and was good at fighting even though he rarely ever did it. Just to say that Polites had a different view, sort of, when fighting. He looked different. Handsome, elegant, but that was always something Polites had in his complexion. But the way he was swift with every strike sword took at him, reminded Odysseus of himself so much. It was nice. He remembered Eurylochus fondly complaining about them when they were kids, saying the two are like a mischievous duo that their mothers wouldn’t be able to control if they were brothers.

“Aughhh!!”

Odysseus was cut off from his thoughts by a sword that felt larger than Eurylochus’ stabbing him in the chest. But he didn’t feel a wound. It didn’t even hurt. How could this be?

“Who was that..?

A voice started speaking to him. Like Thunder. As if the owner of the voice was the reason of existence itself. “A vision. Of what if to come. Cannot be outrun, can only be dealt with right here and now.” Odysseus recognized this voice. It was the King of Gods, the Lord of Olympus, and the universe itself. Zeus was directly speaking to him! But what was this vision and what could it possibly mean? What was going on?

“Show me how.” Odysseus asked out of curiosity and determination. He was ready to win this war. He had to win and make it back home no matter what it took.

“I don’t think you’re ready.”

“A mission to kill someone’s son. A foe who won’t run, unlike anyone you have faced before.”

Now the King of Ithaca was definitely determined and ready. If this enemy wasn’t gonna run, this task was only made easier for him. Of course he was ready! “Say no more. I know that I’m ready.”

“I don’t think you’re ready.” Zeus repeated as he lead Odysseus to a room.

Odysseus barged inside, ready to attack but then was taken aback when he saw a little boy. No older than three months old. Was Zeus sure this was the enemy? Was there someone else caring for this child? Maybe the nanny of the baby was the enemy and not the baby himself. He waited for Zeus to speak again to confirm, but nothing. The baby was the enemy. But how? He didn’t even know what a sword was let alone how to use one. How could this small child possibly be a threat?

“It’s just an infant. It’s just a boy. What sort of imminent threat does he pose that I cannot avoid?”

“This is the son of none other than Troy’s very own Prince Hector. Know that he will grow from a boy to an avenger, one filled with rage as your consumed by age. If you don’t end him now, you’ll have no one left to save. You can say goodbye to Penelope.” Zeus explained to him.

No. Not his queen. His beloved Penelope. Odysseus couldn’t lose her. There had to be some other way. A way he could save the child and Penelope.

“I could raise him as my own!”

“He will burn your house and throne.”

“Or take him far away from home!”

“He’ll find you wherever you go.”

“Make sure his past is never known!”

“The gods will make him known, he’s bringing you down—

“I’m ON MY KNEES for you!”

“I’d rather bleed for you!”

“I’m begging PLEASE—

“Oh, this is the WILL OF THE GODS!”

After reasoning back and forth with the master of gods, Odysseus finally pleaded. “Please don’t make me do this!” He’s slain people for ten whole years at war. But this.. killing a child is different. This innocent boy could not die by his hands.

“The blood on your hands is something you won’t lose. All you can choose is whose.”

[owlettie]

Me realizing that aside from Victorian Fashion History, Mythology is my second biggest fixation

This is just a rambling post where I talk about Greek Mythology and Epic the Musical

Ok but like fun fact I’m ND (no shit) and my current and very obvious fixation is Epic The Musical

Another fun fact; I work with Zeus and Lady Hekate as a spiritual HellenPoly type of person so working and worshiping Greek Gods has been my thing for a couple of months now but I loved learning about them since Elementary

I think it’s fun that a lot of spiritual individuals and Hellenic Polytheists are enjoying Epic the musical

Like I have sang so many of the songs to it’s entirety towards Lady Hekate and Zeus as fun offerings/devotion acts

I’m sure it’s just my own doing but I feel so intune with my gods everytime I draw myself for the group Epic Dr like it’s just so fun

Record of Ragnarok and my love for Beelzebub will never change as a place I want to go but partaking in a more active community really makes me want to create more

Record of Ragnarok is such a small community on the EN side fr so I don’t post my art related to Beelzebub

Since January, I have learned more mythos of the Greek Pantheon and read a comic book version of The Odyssey

Not only I fixated on Epic so much, I be fixating on the original source material and slowly reading Homer’s hymns - I’ve finished reading Hymn to Demeter and currently on Hermes origin hymn

One thing I can’t help but thank the community is for OdyDio and Diomedes glaze because I just love that man (as a character) where I be twirling my hair everytime I see content for him but any Hermes art and content? I be barking like a damn dog who wants that cartoonishly large bone to run around the backyard in bliss fr. Like I love Epic Hermes sooo much I was fearing for my life with Diety Hermes potentially witnessing my down bad moments where I flop around my bed like I’m a Magikarp pokemon bc I’m watching a Dangerous animatic for the millionth time.

Do you know how awkward it is to shake ass to Thunder Bringer when the deity Zeus watches you? I had to stop body rolling to that song for a while after that. I know Zeus doesn’t mind bUT I DO.

Epic has fully brainrotted me as my vocal stims is lyrics from the musical. I be walking around a bougie strip mall and my mouth blurts out “fOR EVERY COMRADE—“

I have listened to the music so keenly that I just replay songs to focus on the different instruments being used. I am no professional dancer but I choreographed No Longer You to myself and Warrior of The Mind. Why? The music felt called towards me. Suddenly I’m studying ancient greek/ myceanen fashion so I can theoretically cosplay the characters from Epic. (Mainly Tireseas so I can perform in cosplay of his song)

I think Epic Odysseus made me accept my most masculine side of the Nonbinary spectrum fr but how hard I want to sing like Jay but also Odysseus’s whole vibe. To the point that the voices in my head is telling me to post song covers bc it would eat. /pf

Anyways, I love Epic the Musical and I love the fandom on tumblr for it. I love any and every animatic artist so much and their art. You guys always makes living more bareable each day. If you guys reach a million views on your animatics, you’re welcome as it’s most definitely me./pf

I should sleep now as it’s 2:45am lmfao



[clodiuspulcher]

Can I ask what draws you to Agamemnon? He's often kind of a difficult figure to grapple with. Sincere question btw, not meant to sound mean I swear :)

NO NO this isn’t mean at all it’s uh. yeah I know it’s an unpopular Take / Opinion and I really do … care deeply about Agamemnon as a character, so thanks for giving me a chance to explain! it’s complicated, he’s complicated… This is gonna get long

I: APPEARANCE Let’s first put the shallow aspects on the table: he’s big, he’s powerful, he’s My Type (physically), I’m gay. This never comes through in film adaptations (although you know what? 1962 Electra Agamemnon comes close, although he’s overshadowed by the hot Aegisthus) but look at how he’s described in the Iliad: He’s compared to 3 gods, canonically Agamemnon is the most handsome man Priam’s EVER seen in his like one million years of life (a list of men which includes Aeneas , Hector, etc). (this post). When Priam says he’s “Every inch a king”, baby, you know what that means-Anyway , @kashuan‘s art is VERY good for conveying how I imagine Agamemnon based on these descriptions. and he’s drawn like exactly my type there. It’s a lot to reckon with.He’s big. He has big arms and big thighs and could kill me if he wanted and he’s powerful and his aristeia is badass and i’m gay. thanks. II: PERSONALITY Now this part is. more about Agamemnon’s character. first, Agamemnon in the Iliad is in fact deeply flawed- he’s imperious and arrogant and shortsighted and short-tempered, he’s stubborn and selfish and ALL OF THE THINGS PEOPLE HAVE SAID HE IS but there’s also a complexity to his character that tends to get flattened - I think because Agamemnon’s at his worst in book 1, people adhere to this AWFUL first impression and don’t bother to look beneath the surface / take the rest of his behavior / his character into account / use this as the baseline of their understanding, but there IS MUCH MORE to him than that behavior even in the Iliad itself, as detailed in THIS POST. He’s a powerful warrior in his own right, and his failings reflect both the internal flaws of his character and the weight of his responsibilities; we see his concern for his men, for the army, the people, in books 4 and 10 (when he can’t sleep because of his anxiety about his men, about Hector). He DOES however, learn and become better, he grows, he’s dynamic: he and Achilles finally make up (book 19! book 23! They’re good now!) and the Odyssey also ends with their ghosts talking as friends.

(Side note I wonder how this works out when Agamemnon’s son kills Achilles’s son but… that’s for another day).

There’s complexity in Agamemnon’s characterization in the tragedies as well, each tragedian has a different portrait of Agamemnon but he’s never one-dimensional.Euripides’ Hecuba has Agamemnon as concerned about his image and his reputation, anxious (and almost insecure) about his authority, but also concerned with justice and the rule of law, even towards one’s enemies. Sophocles’ Ajax portrays an imperious, proud, stubborn Agamemnon who refuses to realize he’s in the wrong but is able to be convinced by the council of Odysseus and eventually, again, comes to an understanding. Seneca’s Trojan Women shows Agamemnon as a Stoic voice of Reason, urging Pyrrhus not to be too violent/hubristic in their victory, and I love both the presentation of Agamemnon as a tired old man wanting to go home and the sort of man who gets into arguments with teenagers about war crimes. As usual, Seneca excels at this subtlety of characterization, this is like the epitome of the Dichotomy of Agamemnon, sympathetic and infuriating, a good leader and a stubborn, proud man, stoic and short-tempered, as present in the Iliad, is here too, and I love it , and him. Seneca’s Agamemnon almost reverses this (HE REALLY SAYS “What can a victor fear”) but I still love that play, and there’s something to be said for the characterization of Agamemnon as someone who learned ABSOLUTELY nothing from victory.

Overall, it’s true that we get, mainly, a portrait of a hard, ruthless, powerful, embittered man- remember how he destroys that one guy Menelaus wanted to save in the Iliad - but he has a sort of “aggressive charisma” as Kashuan once put it and I REALLY see it, and honestly that in itself has some sort of an appeal to me. But with this portrait of his personality, his softer aspects, the moments of gentleness we see, are more striking, they really stand out and indicate the extent of his feelings. In the iliad, for example, we clearly see he loves Menelaus and while he’s almost laughably over-protective (MORE ON THIS LATER), his care for his brother is evident, touching, especially juxtaposed with his shortsighted selfishness. Just look at what happens in Book 4, when Menelaus is barely wounded and Agamemnon is practically writing his eulogy. Right afterwards, also, “Noble Agamemnon showed no reluctance, no cowardice or hesitation, only eagerness for the fight where men win glory”- he rushes in to fight (but not before first taking out his anxiety on his men by demanding more from them. Cannot do anything appealing / good without mitigating it with irritating behavior. love this fool). It takes him like 9 books to finally apologize to Achilles but he defends Menelaus from Nestor’s reproach in book 10, is anxious about Menelaus being in danger if he’s picked to go on a night raid with Diomedes (HERE) and is endearingly not-subtle about it, frets over him in book 4, when he’s wounded, etc.

The love for his family is something that continually stands out and is perhaps his main “redeeming” trait. In the Odyssey, as mentioned, he ask Odysseus desperately about Orestes with heart-rending choice of words especially when one considers Orestes’s Actual Fate: “Come tell me, in truth, have you heard if my son is still alive, maybe in Orchomenus or sandy Pylos, or in Menelaus’ broad Sparta: that my noble Orestes is not yet dead?”. Agamemnon’s no longer a king- he’s a worried father, he regrets the most not being able to see Orestes before he’s killed; it is this pain, of not being able to be a father to his children, which seems to cut the most deeply, which he speaks of multiple times to Odysseus. Then they just cry for a while, with each other. (I like these tender aspects hidden in a big mean man.. but I also like his big meanness).

the Tragedies take this to another level, of course, to drive home the PATHOS required for his death to have an impact but his love of his family is very much on display there. Iphigenia in Aulis in particular provides us with some agonizing demonstrations of this love: Iphigenia reminisces about an exceptionally tender moment in their relationship, when she was young (you used to ask me, “I wonder, my darling, will I get to see you married one day, married and settled happily in your husband’s home, your life ever blossoming, making me proud of you?” And I’d touch your chin, my father, hang from your beard, father, like I’m doing now and say, “and what about you, father, will I get to see you, father, an old man, visiting me at my house, ready for me to repay you for your hard work in raising me?”) an image hard to reconcile with the merciless violence and stubborn arrogance Agamemnon displays in the Iliad (BUT AGAIN, THAT’S THE APPEAL). Clytemnestra assumes he’s crying because he’s sad to see Iphigenia leave them, Agamemnon’s messenger tells him the arrival of his family will cheer him up: even his subordinates know how important they are to him.

I’d need a whole nother post to talk about his relationship with Clytemnestra but please peruse these crumbs I picked off the ground (HERE). they Had something, tbh the tragedy ONLY WORKS if they did and I will DIE on this hill. In Aeschylus, Clytemnestra calls Orestes the “mutual pledge of their love”, he calls her a “great-hearted woman”, she shirks in Aulis at his curt, demanding tone towards her, noting it as something out of character, she takes charge anyway, knows he can’t or won’t actually force her not to be involved in the Iphigenia marriage preparations-All of this creates an image of a man whose imperious, ruthless, stubborn character is balanced with a surprising capacity for tenderness, a genuine fondness and love for the members of his family, which makes the fact that his hand, albeit forced, aids in its destruction, that much more devastating.III: PSYCHOLOGY/HISTORY

Where things get especially interesting for me, character-wise, is when one thinks about his lineage, his past, and his childhood with respect to his current character. This section is about the House of Atreus in general.

Agamemnon clearly bears the scars of his environment: he was born into the House of Atreus and IMO that informs everything he says and does, all his thoughts and feelings, the way he perceives both the world and his place in it. Seneca’s Thyestes is a horrific portrait of what Agamemnon (and Menelaus’s) childhoods must have been like, ATREUS is their father, they were old enough during this event to almost be accomplices which means they’re clearly old enough to remember it. Speaking of that, Atreus isn’t worried that participating in his god-crime schemes will turn his sons evil because, in his mind, they were born evil (Ne mali fiant times? nascuntur. God GOD). Agamemnon and Menelaus grow up in a nightmare house, adjacent to atrocity, under the almost comically cruel hand of Atreus who sincerely believed his sons inherited said cruelty as if its on the same chromosome as the “house-curse” gene. It’s genuinely a miracle Agamemnon and Menelaus grew up to be functional fucking human beings, in my opinion. It also gives a lot more weight to his relationship with Menelaus and the hard imperious cast of his character; their bond was forged in fire, Agamemnon likely protected Menelaus from the worst of Nightmare House being the older brother, and being as protective as he is. There’s this one Iliad adaptation, I can’t think of it off the top of my head though, where when Agamemnon’s freaking out about Menelaus being Barely Wounded he says “don’t die… for you are all I have” and that’s absolutely  how I think about their relationship in this context- Menelaus WAS all he had for so long, they clung to each other, they preserved their humanity in the face of horror BECAUSE OF each other.

But functional like.. .for a given value of “function”. Agamemnon is clearly deeply affected by these events, the weight of the Curse of the House of Atreus clearly impacts him. Take Iphigenia in Aulis, where he says “each one is born with his bitterness waiting for him”, the fact that a Son of Atreus would say that, I think, speaks to the innate, unspeakable fear of the certain destruction of his world, of the tragedy that awaits him, at his own hands, of the House-Curse waiting perched on his shoulder to strike just when he thought he’d created something impenetrable. The tragedy of Iphigenia in Aulis is Agamemnon’s realization that he has locked himself into this, that he has no other choice (see: this post about the Odysseus impact, there is in fact a point when it’s inevitable, although he still made the first move which makes it even WORSE he created this, etc) and all he can do at this point is watch as the life he so carefully built for himself and his family collapses around him, just like he must have always dreaded it would. (Also in the Iliad It’s Agamemnon who says “We must toil, in accord with the weight of sorrow Zeus loaded us with at birth” and that reminds me of this aspect of him too: Good Things Never Last, Bad Things Never Die, etc.)

It’s made clear that the story of Atreus and Thyestes is widespread, familiar; Teucer in Sophocles’ Ajax and Neoptolemus in Seneca’s Trojan Women both call out Agamemnon for trying to reference his lineage as a source of authority because it is a HORRIFIC lineage. “I know about the famous family of Atreus and Thyestes”, Neoptolemus says. And THEREIN LIES A CONFLICT: Agamemnon’s sense of self comes from his authority, his kingship, his position of power and his social status as a member of the nobility, of the class of royalty BUT. It’s all undercut by the fact that this power, authority, indeed his very identity is based in cruelty, violence, and crime; Agamemnon is descended from the most ignoble nobility, which he knows all too well.

It’s Interesting that Agamemnon’s relationship with his identity, status, family, power is brought up in Ajax, of all plays, primarily concerned with the destruction of Ajax’s identity- reminding Agamemnon of the crimes of his house genuinely cuts him down. I see Agamemnon as a man who genuinely fears his past, who dreads the legacy of his father and in his desperation creates a crisis for himself (as happens in tragedy).

We (I) laugh at Agamemnon “forgetting” about the god-crime shit before he pulls rank by referencing his Authority and Status but there’s something in Agamemnon continually being owned by forgetting about the House….  Agamemnon wants to distance himself from the “legacy” he inherited from Atreus, but he can’t without disavowing his power, his authority, his identity. Whether he likes it or not (he does Not), this is fundamental to who he is. I feel like that knowledge too lurks in his mind, rises to the forefront occasionally at his lowest points-

Clytemnestra in Aeschylus’s Agamemnon pretty clearly sees him / his actions as the next link in the god-crime family chain, a continuation of the house -curse, heir to his father’s throne and his crimes, hence her belief that killing him is the only way to end it/ stop the cycle of violence (spoiler she is wrong but there’s another post coming eventually about how they are Very Similar Characters short version the Etruscans Understand).

IN short, I think there’s a lot of complexity in Agamemnon people overlook, or don’t get to see since they don’t read the peripheral plays. Agamemnon seems to me a man in conflict with himself, a Man of Contradictions, who defines himself by his authority and status while fearing the source of it, whose devotion to his family contrasts with the horror of his childhood, and with his own agonizing role in its destruction, a man who willfully ignores or cannot bring himself to fully interact with the legacy of Atreus, who tries to distance himself from the crimes of his house and the cruelty of his father while being reminded of both every time he’s called by the epithet Atreides.

[swaglexander-the-great]

Hey!!!! Dumb question but what exactly is the Iliad?

THE ILIAD: A SUMMARY

The Short Version: A yarn about blokes getting shitmixed in a war over Miss Hellenic Beauty Champion because some gods thought it would be a Lol.

The Long Version: A Homeric epic poem passed down through spoken word over generations that was penned down in about 800 BC. In the mythological timeline, it ends the Age of Heroes (by wasting them all). It covers the Greek seige of Troy, a whole lotta gods Messing With Shit, a Poseidon who needs anger management, a few hundred names and lots of General Epicness ft Diomedes and Patroklus. Sit back my buddy, let’s go through a quick summary of the books.

Book 1: Apollo ghettoblasts the Greeks with Pain because Agamemescunt kidnapped his priestess Chryseis. Being a douchebag, Agadouchebag Mr Steals Yo Girl from Achilles, which leads to in͟ten̛şȩ ͟śul͜ki͢n̶g͡ . Achilles’ divine Ma brokers a deal with the Zeus goose (not literally thank goodness, although it’s a definite possibility) so that the Greeks won’t win until they realize how fucked they are without Achilles and go crawling back to him for help.

Book 2: Zeus messes with Agafuckface by telling him to attack Troy. Agamemhoe messes with Zeus by telling his entire army to fuck off back to Greece. Odysseus, with Athena’s help, uses his wicked ol’ tongue to lick  Agaiceheart back into  shape (not literally, although very possible in Ancient Greece). There are 31 paragraphs of names about Greeks and 16 paragraphs of names about Trojans going to war. The epic story continues.

Book 3: The armies meet. Memealaus (sorry, Menelaus) and Paris decide to have a 1v1 to end this shindig. Paris is saved by Aphrodite and a cloud because he is a Weak Bitch, so we gear up for another 9 years and 11 months of war. Helen tells Aphrodite to go fuck Paris herself if she likes him so much, but Aphrodite threatens Godly Bitch Revenge is Helen ever talks back to her like that again.

Book 4: Menelaus gets grazed by an arrow. Like a football player with a stubbed toe, this means war. He also apparently had ‘shapely thighs and fair ankles’. Watch out for the Zeus eagle, boi. Fighting commences. Diomedes appears. He is awesome, as usual. We continue to the next chapter.

Book 5: Pretty much an entire chapter about Diomedes being a son of a gun and killing fucking everything thanks to Athena. A dude called Sthenelus gets a rock hard boner watching all of this. Aeneas thinks it’s a good idea to take on Diomedes. Mistake. Big Mama Aphrodite has to save him, also with a cloud. Diomedes hasn’t quite reached Critical Awesome yet, so he stabs Ares and Aphrodite as well. Hera calls Ares a little bitch and we carry on.

Book 6: Just a lot of death really. Diomedes was going to kill a bloke, but they realize they are family friends, so just do a little swapsie of armour. Hector gives Paris a spray for being a cowardly little bitch, Paris agrees, and they set off for battle.

Book 7: Hector decides to 1v1 and get this over with. Menelaus tries to accept, but his wingmen Restrain Him. Ajax gets picked out of a hat to fight, but after a bit of a tussle it gets dark, so the fighting pair give each other presents and go home for the night. The next day, they all take a holiday from fighting and the Greeks build a wall. Poseidon is triggered. (reason here.)

Book 8: Due to Poseidon being triggered, Zeus forbids any godly interference on both sides of the war. Hera and Poseidon bitch about Zeus as the Greeks get casually wreckt by the Trojans, but decide not to act on it. Lucky for the Greeks, the Trojans decide sleeping is better than winning, so leave off for the night.

Book 9: The Greeks hit Fuck It and decide to grovel to Achilles for help. Before they do, Diomedes gives Agasaggytitnon a spray for being a douchebag, and everyone agrees that he is indeed a douchebag. Sthenelus probably pops another boner. Back in the tent with the power pair, Achilles and Patroklus, Patroklus tries to be the polite bf to the pleading Greeks, but Achilles is still thinks Agamoomoo called him a ‘vile tramp’ so refuses to help. The drama continues.

Book 10: Odysseus and BAMF Diomedes go on a sneak mission and  heroically stab the Trojans in their sleep. They also heroically steal some horses. The epic heroism continues.

Book 11: Hector takes a leaf out of Diomedes’ book and decides to shitmix the Greeks. He successfully shitmixes the Greeks, giving Agamugface a well-deserved arm wound. Paris shoots Diomedes in the foot, but Diomedes literally does not give a shit. Some random dude gives Odysseus a bit of a stab, Ajax gets Confused By Zeus but survives, but things still look Grim. Sweetheart Patroklus sees the Grimness and decides to try and use his wiles to break Achilles out of his Uber Sulk.

Book 12: The Trojans continue to roadhaul the Greeks, which will come back to bite Hector, but we do meet a dude called Thootes. He doesn’t do shit, but his name is great. There is graphic violence, and the Trojans go to chuck a Greek ship on the barbie. 

Book 13: Poseidon rises from the sea, back being a buddy to the Greeks now the his great enemy The Triggering Greek Wall has been overcome.There is a shit ton of fighting wherein the Greeks do well and Poseidon is happy because he’s getting vengeance for his other traumatic wall experience.

Book 14: Hera sees Poseidon disobeying Zeus and getting sweet wall vengeance and while probably thinking she married the wrong brother, decides to use Titty Distraction so that the Greeks don’t get chucked on the Trojan barbie. Titty Distraction predictably works A+ and the Trojans get slightly shat on with gratuitous eyeball violence. Hector gets hit by a rock and almost has the most anticlimactic death since Amycus, who suffered death by Elbow Punch.

Book 15: Zeus wakes, calls Hera a scurvy knave and tells Poseidon to Fight Him. Poseidon does not want to Fight Him, so melts back into the ocean and stops helping the Greeks. Apollo resurrects Hector from his rock to the face and the Trojans joyously return to their mission to barbeque the Greek ships.

Book 16: Honeyboo Patroklus (still on his way to Achilles since Book 11) sees Apollo and his Brojans on the warpath and breaks Achilles’ heart with Man Tears. While Achilles and Patbroklus have a very, very long, heartfelt conversation, the Trojans start to toast the Greek ships. Achilles gives (yes gives) Patroklus his armour and tells him to fuck shit up, but not to win without him. Fighting commences, we discover the word hurly-burly, Sarpedon dies in a shower of Zeus-induced blood rain and Patroklus becomes Diomedes 2.0 until he is gang bashed by Hector, Apollo, a literal god, and some awkward random called Euphorbus. Sasstroklus delivers a final fuck you, pulls the finger at all three of his killers and blazes it down to Hades.

Book 17: Hector takes Achilles’ armour off Patroklus, marking him as target #1 for the Sulk King. The Trojans and the Greeks spend an entire chapter having a tug of war with Patroklus’ body. Ajax and Menelaus comment mildly on how Zeus is helping out the Trojans, and the god shines a bit of sunlight in chagrin for being called out. The Greeks win the tug of war thanks to Double Ajax Tactics.

Book 18: In which Achilles goes nuts. Everybody has a cry because Patroklus was a Swell Guy (seriously,as swell as a Hawaiian surf that guy). Achilles goes and therapy-screams at the Trojans, who see the mad bloke and back the fuck off -  rightfully so, as Achilles is planning some good old human sacrifice to his dead ‘rider’ Patroklus. Meanwhile, Hephaestus quick-smelts some smashing new armour for Achilles with his household robots.

Book 19: Achilles gets dolled up for battle. Agadickbutt and Odysseus try to placate the madman with gifts, including Briseis, the dame Agamemnope stole from Achilles, but Achilles’ quota of fucks has run out indefinitely. He saddles up and gets ready to fuck up his bae killer.

Book 20: Zeus R͡ELE҉ASE͜S̵ ͝T̀H͜E͡ ́ǴO̷D͞S͝ and lets them play for whichever team they like, so long as Achilles doesn’t sack Troy just quite yet. It’s probably a friendly game similar to football in god terms. Athena invents the spear boomerang, Hera and Poseidon do some casual sunbathing, while Achilles paints the town red rather literally. 

Book 21: Achilles finds men too weak and decides to take on a literal river (Scamander). Achilles realizes this was A̴ B̸ad ̶I͜de͟a͡and decides he’ll stick to men. We’re not sure whether Diomedes would have backed off from a river, but I guess we’ll never know. Apollo saves a dude called Agenor from Achilles molestation and in doing so also saves the Brojans. The epic story continues.

Book 22: Apollo says surprise Achilles, tricked ya into chasing me boi, I’m immortal. Achilles stares him dead in the eye for a full minute then says ‘fuck you’ and rides off back to Troy. Hector decides it’s time for another 1v1, but at the last minute considers that this idea was insane and fuckin legs it. Achilles chases Hector around the wall of Troy three times presumably to this soundtrack. Hector finally stops to fight, and thanks to the Athena Spear Boomerangᵀᴹ, Achilles avenges his Patroklus. Hector performs the minor miracle of talking whilst having a spear sticking out of his throat before he dies, then Troy’s hero gets roadhauled and everyone is Sad. 

Book 23: Ghost Patroklus pays Achilles a visit, like a sexy Obi wan Kenobi and tells Achilles to bury him already. Patghostklus also beseeches that their bones be laid (ha) together when Achilles inevitably gets fucked on by Fate. Achilles says of course bby I was gonna do that anyway, and tries to make out with a ghost, but this isn’t a Whoopi Goldberg type deal, so Patroghost gets sent back down under. They put the fun in funeral by having games and giving out toasters and such as prizes.

Book 24 (The End): After ‘yearning after the might and manfulness of Patroklus’, Achilles continues to roadhaul Hector until Apollo gives his fam a spray about the dishonour of it. Hera says he’s only mortal scum so who gives a fuck and Zeus says chill wife and commands Achilles to RE̵L͘E̡A̷S͢E ̴T́HȨ H̀ȨC̕T̵O̷R͡ (sorry I can’t help it). With Hermes as a bodyguard, Priam (Hector’s dad) goes to get the body back. Achilles and Priam have a man-cry bonding moment over Dead Loved Ones, Hector is whisked off to be buried and there ends the Iliad! There’s none of the ankle-shooting, wooden-horse-building shenanigans in there, they all come in later texts such as the Aeneid and Ovid, although I still can’t find the exact text where Achilles gets shot. If y’all know, send me the link ;)  I fucking found it nvm

Anyhoo, that was…Jeez, that was The Iliad (aka the longest post in existence). Well, my retold, abridged more slightly less serious version.It’s definitely worth a read, if you can get past all the names!

Check out more Greek Stories here :D