#not byler related but i want my byler friends to see this cause i know y’all agree so i tagged it

[lucystark12]

mike wheeler and jaime lannister are the same character and that also means byler is real 🥳

my last post about game of thrones versus stranger things where i talked about writing and what went wrong with dan and david did pretty well so i figured id elaborate just a bit on my quick side note i had in there about mike reminding me of jaime because it’s something i literally cannot shake. they are so similar it causes me extreme amounts of stress. and im on a two hour flight so i have time to explain it all to you 🥳🤗

to begin, my favorite stranger things characters are mike and nancy and my favorite game of thrones characters are sansa and jaime. if you already see a pattern, then you’re on the right track, because yes, i am a believer in the misunderstood character who is widely hated amongst fans but is arguably the best written one in the given source material. sansa and nancy are both fundamentally similar characters- they both start out as naive girls who are very singularly focused on their reputation and how they’re perceived by the people around them. this is evident in nancy’s relationship with steve and with basically every single action sansa takes in season one of game of thrones. through being forced into a dangerous environment however, both characters learn to shed the ideas they had about what it means in their given world to be “successful” and “important.” i tend to love characters like that because their so realistic. even if we aren’t all being abused by kings or shooting demegorgans, most of us can relate to wishing we were something we weren’t and having to learn the hard way that it’s just better to be yourself

i just wanted to get the nancy sansa pipeline out of the way first before i talk about mike and jaime, because where nancy and sansa are similar, jaime and mike are practically twins.

let’s look at both characters at the beginning of their respective story-

- mike is 12 years old and knows close to nothing except for the fact that he wants to be able to protect the people he cares about. throughout the first season, we see mike’s guilt for not being able to find will metaphorically eat him alive, coming to a head at the cliff scene where when his other best friend is in threat of being harmed, he decides that he would rather die than not be able to save someone he cares about again.

- jaime is mike on a twenty year delay, but his story begins about where mike is at in ~season 3. however, when jaime was about 15, he was appointed to the kings guard, a position he partly sought out to be close to cersei (his affair partner (and sister but that’s a conversation for another day)) (also, mike acts the way he does when will goes missing partly because he’s lost somebody he subconsciously loves too and if you don’t think mike has been subconsciously in love with him this whole time ily but womp womp ur wrong) but also partly sought out because of his notions of what it meant to be a knight- it means that you’re fighting for the people and essentially saving as many as you possibly can. jaime is a character who cares very much about the people around him, similarly to mike. jaime’s situation comes to a similar head when he kills the king to prevent him from essentially bombing the capital city and killing half a million innocent people, which in doing so he puts his own life and reputation at risk

these characters are both so similar because they both value life. they are willing to sacrifice themselves and their reputation in the interest of other people. this is who they both are at the core of their person. however, at some point throughout their arc they both go back on their previous behaviors. they don’t so much regret the way they behaved, but the pressures about their roles that have been put on them by society lead them both to believe that their behavior is wrong in some way.

with mike, i’m talking about how affectionate (?) he was with will in season two. i’m naming what happened after the whole hospital “best thing i’ve ever done” sequence and before season three as mike going through the same thing jaime does in the period between when he kills the king and when the show starts. i think in both of these time frames, the two of them start to have this realization based on the people around them that what they did was wrong and won’t be widely accepted. jaime’s king slaying was treasonous and mike realizes that his love confession coded monologue to will in the hospital wasn’t necessarily normal behavior. this is also the exact time period in which the raegan bush election is happening. they literally probably voted during season 2. id also like to point out that both of them come from very rigid and strict families. and if you’re denying me this for mike, they have a raegan bush sign in their yard.

now we pick up in season 1 for jaime and season 3 for mike. this is where im going to bring up the singular most important part of both of their respective arcs- the love triangle. season 1/3 are the most important times for both melvin and jercei (?). melvin is at peak affection, and basically mike’s entire story for a good portion of this season revolves around her. this is basically the peak of jercei because it’s right before they get separated and their whole dynamic changes. but uh oh! there’s trouble in paradise for both! suddenly mike and el are broken up and jaime and cersei are separated by the war of the five kings. this next part bleeds into season 2/3 for jaime and season 4 for mike, when mike and el are quite literally separated.

so, both of them are separated from side one of their love triangle, who both are using as a gateway to solve what they think is their biggest flaw- jaime his narcissism and mike his sexuality. then, and this is one of my favorite little parallels, they are both literally escorted home by the other side of the triangle, where “home” (hawkins for mike, kings landing for jaime) serves to say the truth about who they are as people that they weren’t quite ready to face before they set off on their respective physical journeys. (mikes trip to california, jaimes push north)

obviously in stranger things mike and will literally go back to hawkins together. in game of thrones, jaime gets captured by the opposing army and is escorted back to the capital by a knight for the opposing army, brienne, under the condition that he will safely return the king’s sisters to him. throughout both of their returns home, they both are forced to come to terms with their feelings just a little bit. jaime admits the truth of his kingslay to brienne, and mike is given the painting. i don’t think mike has put ANY of the dots together on the painting yet, but once he does, this will serve as a HUGE influence on his character development and relationship with will (another thing i could talk about for hours). then they both get home, and jaime’s view starts to shift just a little bit… he starts thinking “hey wait… maybe brienne is onto something. maybe i don’t have to be so terrible all the time and conform to what society wants me to be.” now obviously we don’t know if mike is thinking this way yet, but my guess is that he probably will start having a similar thing next season.

the reason both brienne and will are so important to their character arcs are because in the context of the love triangle or decision their romantic interest is making, they serve to symbolize non conformity and embracing the truth about who you are and what you stand for. brienne isn’t conventionally attractive like cersei and actively goes against what was expected of women at the time. being with will would make him a part of a gay relationship, which was very nonconformist at the time. where cersei and eleven serve in the relationship to show pretending, insecurity, and lies since they are literally the exact opposite of brienne and will. and guess who doesn’t lie? FRIENDS.

so, what i’m saying is that will is essential to ending mike’s character arc just like brienne was to jaime, and that if stranger things fumbles the bag and doesn’t make it happen like game of thrones did, then mike will live in infamy as an unfinished character who had a stupid ending just like jaime did.

also, i am a “jaime should have killed cersei and then died in the fire with her” truther and similarly believe that mike should sacrifice himself in the last summer to come full circle to the sacrificial person he used to be. i also don’t believe in happy endings because they’re boring ❤️

this is why im SO FUCKING NERVOUS about mike. i’m literally having ptsd god help me! 🤗🤗 pls matt and ross learn from the mistakes of your elders and break the game of thrones curse!! as daenerys targaryen would say- BREAK THE WHEEL!!

[13personalities]

Hi....if you don't mind me asking, who are your top 10 favorite romantic relationship's couples in books/ manga/ anime/movies/tv series (can be canon or non-canon) and your top 10 favorite characters ever from any media? Why do you love them all? Thanks if you want to answer my questions....

Hi!! Thank you for this ask! I see that you ask variations of this frequently so I’ll do my best to answer :)

Ships:

These won’t really be in a particular order. Just the ones I thought of first :)

Satosugu (Gojo Satoru and Geto Suguru) - I just really loved (and cried about) their backstory and their relationship. I know a lot of people insist that they’re just friends (and honestly I’m okay with that too) but I ship them anyways lol. [Jujutsu Kaisen]

Byler (Will Byers and Mike Wheeler) - am currently dodging bullets cause it’s shipping war season but I love these two and I’ve shipped them since season two. I respect mileven but I always thought they would be better as platonic best friends. [Stranger Things]

3. Percabeth (Percy Jackson and Annabeth Chase) - favorite friends to lovers arc and they’re just amazing together (when they’re characterized correctly!!) literally a power couple. [PJO]

4. Narusasu (Naruto Uzumaki and Sasuke Uchiha) - no disrespect towards sasusaku and naruhina, I just saw more in narusasu throughout the series and I’m not afraid to say they are just soulmates at this point [Naruto]

5. Marylily (Mary Macdonald and Lily Evans) - such an interesting ship with just the best dynamics but I never see anything about them sadly [The Marauders]

6. Klance (Keith Kogane and Lance McClain) - they have a silly dynamic and I love them. Not much else to say here [VLD]

7. ItaFushi (Itadori Yujii and Megumi Fushiguro) - now I know that they are just friends. This is more of a little ship I love to play around with because I like them and I think it could be a possibility. I see them as friends too but I sometimes love to ship them as well [Jujutsu Kaisen]

8. Killugon (Killua Zoldyk and Gon Freecs) - now before I get flamed, I do only ship them in a romantic manner, and I don’t sexualize them I promise. Those two are just soulmates, what can I say. [Hunter X Hunter]

9. Xander Hawthorne and Max Liu - I remember wondering if their relationship felt extra and rushed but as I’m reading the inheritance games, they become the only couple I would ever be able to stand. I love those two and they both vibe amazingly together [TIG]

10. RanPoe (Ranpo Edogawa and Edgar Allen Poe) - love them and SSKK is right next to them. I love their silly vibes [BSD]

{I do have many more ships that I love but these are the ones I thought of first. There’s still Jegulus and Regulily and Shokohime and Solangelo and Matchablossom and renga and oh so many more lol}

Characters:

This one will be hard to choose from because I honestly have so many…

Megumi Fushiguro (Jujutsu Kaisen) - idk why but I just really love him so much. I wanna give him a big hug even tho ik he wouldn’t appreciate it but it’s the principle of it that counts. (JJK is also one of my favorite shows currently so I have a surplus amount of favorite characters but since I want to talk about a variety of fandoms, I’ll list my other favorites here: Gojo Satoru, Choso, Itadori Yuji, Shoko Ieri, Geto Suguru, Inumaki Toge, Maki Zenin)

Percy Jackson (PJO) - ik ik hes the main character but he’s a loveable main character ya know? I love a lot of PJO characters but Percy will always have my heart

Bachira Meguru (BlueLock) - idk why he’s my favorite but the vibes he gives really work well with mine and I feel like we could be absolute best friends

Shikamaru Nara (Naruto) - smartass, lazyass, sarcastic, literally me. He’s legit the only character with common sense sometimes lol and I always relate to him on some level

~~~Three Demon Slayer characters~~~ Giyuu Tomioka (idk why, maybe it the vibes), Tanjiro Kamado (main character ik but I still really like him), and Kyojiro Rengoku (Spoilers for mungen train arc ig?: I cried bitter tears when he died)

Shadow the Hedgehog (Sonic-verse) - I feel stupid for saying this one cause it’s like little children stuff ig but hey, no judgement please?

Keith Kogane (VLD) - I’m starting to see a pattern here….

Max Mayfield (Stranger Things) - she’s an amazing character and a girl with an actual personality that isn’t just “mean and badass” or whatever. She’s very relatable too. (Other favorite ST characters are Will Byers, Joyce Byers, Steve Harrington, Lucus Sinclair, Eleven Hopper)

Marvel~~~ Bucky Barnes (and winter soldier), Peter Parker (and Miles Morales. Just about any Spider-Man version. Almost all of them), Wanda Maximoff

Regulus Black, Remus Lupin, Lily Evans (all from The Marauders… sorry I couldn’t choose one lol)

sooooo…. That’s a lot more than ten but I tried lol. Thanks for the ask again! It was fun responding to this :)

[buckieduckie2]

why i joined tumblr and why i ship byler- cause i want to info dump cause i can

i wanna tell everyone why i got on tumblr because i can and i want to

so i got on tumblr because of byler during august. i started shipping byler during july.

i was kinda late to the stranger things party and i didnt actually watch it until may of 2022, but funny enough, it WASNT because of season 4 at all actually. my friend just really really wanted me to watch it because she thought id like it. she was riiiiiggghhthttttt.

yeah lmfao i didnt watch stranger things cause there was so much hype around season 4, i watched it because i wanted something gay to watch cause my heart stopper hyperfixation had just gone away and i still needed something gay to watch. i dm my friend saying "hey, do you have anything gay to watch because i need to watch something gay" and she gave me a list and was like "richie from IT is gay" and "will from stranger things is gay" and of course MY brain translated this to "mike is gay" because of notions from before hand i had about this little known to me character mike and also the fact that i knew that finn wolfhard played richie so i mistook will for mike because i was thinking the FCU and- yeah

so yeah i watched stranger things because a) my frined really wanted me to and b) the knowlege that mike was gay and thats what pushed me

anyways to safe to say i was THOROUGHLY confused when they started pulling the mike and el narraitve cause i LEGITEMATELY just thought it was straight canon like genuinelly- i had already imagined what i thougt the coming out scene would be like for him- LMFOAOOOO

anyways back on track- so then mike and el kissed and ill admit i was a lil disappointed but i was like fuck it ig theyre cute and then proceeded to be BLINDEDDDDDD by comp het. twas a very sad three next seasons for me in retrospect 😔

so then i saw the "its not my fault you dont like girls" and then i was like- oh yeah this is the dude my friend was talking about

ANYWAYS

so yeah why i got on tumblr?

cause i got on pinterest andnndndnd yk naturally statrted filling my feed with stranger things stuff and of course i loved will cause he was gay and that made me so like omgggggg yass hes gay and that makes me so happy- but like i didnt ship byler- I THOUGHT HE WAS GONNA GET TO SEE ONE DUDE IN THE VERY LAST SCENE HELP 💀🖐 i now realize im allowed to hold myself to better standards

so everytime i would see something byler related id be like, yeahhhhhhh its cute but not for me </3 cause i was like "yeah will likes mike but obvi mike doesnt like will back 🙄" and i thought it was a lil kookie and also was a firm believer that mike was straight cause yk i love throwing away all my suspicions that were raised while watching season 4 yk i love just forgetting everything 💀

and THEN one faitful day in july i was over at my friends house (The same gril who made me wtch stranger things) and we were watching gay stranger things edits on tiktok (as ya do) and GIRLIE

there was one edit- (and usually as i was watching these compilations i would just ignore the byler stuff and-) it was a rink-o-mania edit

need i say more

i saw that look

i SAW THAT LOOK

and i knew

we paused the video immediately and were like "well- i mean i know that mike is straight-" "yeah exactLy-" "but-" "but-" "but right there-" "yeah i dont know that-" "that seemed pretty gay-" "but mike is straight, right?" "yeah- yeah..- mike is straight..." "yeah..." "...yeah..."

literally how it went

anyways so then im like- its running thorugh my head all evening and like- that sole video was enough to like 99% convince me he was gay- like cmon fellas lets be real here. anyways so yeah i was now 99% convinced that mike was gay or not straight yk (im a gay mike truther now) and we talked about it for a lil and

yeah so then i started paying more attention to the byler posts on my pinterest page and i started reading theroies, all of which were tumblr screen shots and i started really convinceing myself- still was on the fence but-

the one post, and one of the first posts that i read. and the post that conviced me was "Why I no longer think Mike Wheeler is Bi, but Gay" yk the iconic post from @kaypeace21? yeah so i read that and was like "fuck im convinced" and then i proceeded to read the entirety of the byler slides over the course of a 3 day period and fully fully convinced myself

and yeah i kept looking at theories on pinterest screen shotted from tumblr and yk byler was my everything (and still very much is) and i loved pinterest and spent all of my time on there and- 💀 i read- i read w- wh- wattpad fics 💀😟 BUT ITS OKAY because i actually found a pretty good collection of one shots on there but- nah man after one specific fic i found i had to call it quits cause i couldnt handle it anymore 💀💀💀💀

and then i found one poster on pinterest that would just do daily updates on the byler tag on tumblr and eventuallyyyyyy i decided tumblr looked really fun and i was tired of just watching afar tired of WAVING FROM A WINDOW WOOOOAAHHHOWOWAHHHOOOHHH

yeah so i decided enough was enough and i wanted to be directly at the source and part of the action

and now im here <33333

and yeah so i have officially upgraded from Pinterest and Wattpad™ to AO3 and Tumblr™ and thank the lord too 😟🙏

@l0v3c0r3e peer presuring you into reading this entire unit of a post

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

Can you recommend best ways to tell family you’re gay? I’m terrified of speaking up but want to

Hey! Thanks for the ask! I’m not sure I’m the best person to give advice on this since I still haven’t come out to my parents as bi, but I’ll try my best to answer your question. It’s completely natural to feel scared, and your feelings are 100% valid. This is a huge step, you are really brave, and I am proud of you!

In short: it depends. I’m not sure what your family situation looks like, how close you are to them, or how accepting your parents and/or siblings are of the LGBTQ+ community in general. That’s why I’d say it’s first and foremost important to assess the situation.

Number one thing, and I can’t emphasize this enough, is make sure you’re safe. Make sure you have a contingency plan. I don’t know your age, but if you live with your family and rely on them, and you have any reason to believe they might react violently or throw you out or try to send you to conversion therapy, then I’d recommend waiting until you’re in a safer situation or making sure you have a supportive friend you can stay with. Hopefully this is not the case, but I say this because way too many queer kids end up homeless or worse, and I don’t want this to happen to you. There are lots of resources available if things go south. The Trevor Project is one of those.

But assuming you’re in a generally safe situation and have no reason to believe your family would react violently; you just don’t know if they’d accept you (or maybe you believe they’ll accept you, but you’re still scared to tell them- coming out is scary either way), I’d recommend building up to it by casually bringing up queer-related topics and see how they react. One potential way to do this is by showing them movies and shows with queer characters and relationships and asking them their thoughts.

Maybe showing them an explicitly, specifically queer movie or show like But I’m a Cheerleader or Heartstopper isn’t the move, cause that might raise eyebrows. But regular shows that have queer characters might be a good start. I don’t know if your family likes Stranger Things, but since this is Byler tumblr, asking them their thoughts on Will or Robin is a potential idea. You could also play queer artists around them, bring up important political news related to the community, or see how they react to you being an ally first. It’s important to note tho that even overall accepting family members can have confusions and misunderstandings.

Acceptance is a spectrum. It can range from the worst case violent scenario I mentioned earlier to a “We’ll love you forever, but we don’t agree with the action” sort of stance to “Fine, but just don’t be weird about it” to “Okay cool, no worries” to enthusiastic and passionate allyship (with many degrees in between). Casually bringing it up can help gauge where they fall.

This too can be really scary, but know that your worth is not determined by how others react. You are loved, you are cherished, you are enough, and you have a whole community here cheering you on every step of the way. Even if it feels like you’re lost in the world, you are not alone.

Maybe some of them are more accepting than others? This is a huge possibility. It may not be the best idea to tell the whole family at once. Maybe you tell a trusted sibling first. Maybe you feel more comfortable telling your mom so you go to her first. Or your dad. Or your grandma, idk. It really depends. How you come out to them also depends on your family’s preferred communication style. It’s often best to have a one-on-one face-to-face conversation, but in some cases, a phone call might be better.

There’s also some cases where a text is the right move, which can then be followed up by an in person conversation or a phone call. It’s also possible your family will need time to process the information. But something else I want to emphasize is that your family’s love for you may surprise you as well. Many families come around and grow into their acceptance and understanding over time. So even if you don’t get the reaction you hoped for, that’s not always the end of the story.

Alternatively, you can wait till you’re in a relationship to tell them you’re gay. In some cases, that might make it feel less abstract and more concrete and real to your family. (But don’t feel pressured to come out just because you’re dating someone). Lastly, it’s possible that your family may genuinely be a very accepting group of people. If that’s the case, you might not need to make it as much of an ordeal as you may be dreading. You can pull a Cyrus Goodman from Andi Mack and casually slide in your sexuality into conversation (or casually slide in your relationship) and let them catch on.

Or if you feel more comfortable, you could go a more creative, theatrical route and bake something or paint something. Ultimately, it’s important to do it on your own terms and whichever way feels natural and comfortable to you. Everyone’s family situation is different, so there is not a one-size fits all way of coming out. Whatever you choose, I’m proud of you, I’m rooting for you, and I believe in you! If you have any other questions, feel free to DM me.

[castlebyersafterdark]

I have a bit of a meta-question! you seem chill and thoughtful so i would love to hear your thoughts and i hope you feel happy to speak for yourself if not other bylers in this case. its hard to convey my interest without causing accidental offense on this site so i really hope my genuine tone comes across! :)

i just saw your positive reblog of wisehearts post about top mike/service mike, and i also saw your post about byler wrestling that you then tagged as as a projection of a teenage fantasy. seeing as you seem to understand/support the concept of gleaning sexual pleasure from a beloved's pleasure alone, i wonder if you can comment on the tendency in spicy byler fanspaces for people to project on to mike and will rather than try to follow what the show has laid down only? obviously sometimes these things blend, which is why people related to them in the first place, and ofc you can take from real life to enrich characters in your own work. but i see a lot of people saying 'maybe i'm just projecting' or even sort of defensively demanding that their fav character is the same as them just because (this happens a lot in the bi mike debate).

this is an interesting phenomenon in and of itself, but mostly i'm curious about the fans who project on to mike and will AND who seem to enjoy the above-described service kink in byler sex, where one character gleans pleasure solely from the other's. perhaps that is ALSO a projected kink that reflects them irl, and which they would love to see for their fav character... but doesn't the act of projecting - i.e. seeking self-validation through a fictional character - then negate the concept of being in service to another's pleasure (in this case, letting mike and will be who they are in canon even if/when it does not reflect the fan themself)?

i hope this makes sense!

This kind of makes sense, though I'm not one hundred percent sure what you're getting at, so I'll try my best. I guess I'll focus on the idea you present with: "the tendency in spicy byler fanspaces for people to project on to mike and will rather than try to follow what the show has laid down only?" because the big thing I feel, is that as much as we can watch and rewatch and discuss and theorize and analyze - there are big gaps where we as fans are going to have to fill in a lot via our own bias and imagination. Because in all honesty, we're not going to get a very in-depth look detailing these character's sexual relationship. Or, actual non-sexual relationship as well, to be frank. There's not enough time. It's not that type of show. I hope they do a good job and I think the writers will - but it'll always be limited in comparison to fan wishes. I think people can have fun and make conjectures and even if far off base, keep it light with little head canons or scenarios, doing our best to imagine these characters in whatever situation we want to play with them in ways we think can be interpreted true to the characters. Especially in the spicy side. It's almost entirely imagination based.

So, there is a fair bit of projection. I know there is for me. What personally appeals to me about them is a projection of what I wished I could have had as a teenager. That's what hit me watching the show in later seasons and really sitting with it after all was said and done. I've said before, I don't like to share tooooo much of myself online, but I've always used fandom to escape and play around and let my imagination run, by means of characters I've gotten attached to. Something about these boys just scratched that itch for me, it's wish fulfillment to a degree? So it's intriguing to explore what a fulfilling relationship looks like between these two friends who are really, really perfect for each other as best friends AND romantic partners. I think I and many other have latched onto the idea of a character being a "service" type of person in the bedroom sometimes, and out, maybe a little echo-chambery way (but it's not a bad thing so what's the issue lol), because it is kind of nice to imagine a partner who truly cares and loves the other and really enjoys making sure they have pleasure and get off and feel worshiped and loved. I think it's a little bit of a heightened fantasy, more almost caricatured than the average relationship irl (even tho this is a legitimate thing in irl relationships, too). But in fandom through fic and headcanons, we can perfect thinking about it however we want.

We're playing with dolls, really, and we like when the dolls really care about each other, in this instance. I don't think there's one "you have to do it this way" depiction of these characters, even if there are tropes that seem popular to different fandom spaces. Also because since the show, while I think is really rich with characterizations, can never fully flesh out who these characters are, if we envision them as fully realized people in our brains. There's too many gaps. So there are infinite interpretations of small aspects that are all equally valid.

[byersfanclub]

people who call will slurs, people who don’t like dustin, people who make fun of eddie but stan billy— why exactly are you watching stranger things? has it occurred to you that maybe this show wasn’t made for you? cause ngl y’all seem like the type of ppl to make fun of theatre kids whilst watching a show full of theatre kid actors, to make fun of ppl with disabilities, to be homophobic, brush aside all red flags because someone is “hot”. make it make sense. it’s the same genre of dudebros who love marvel movies but make fun of “nerds” just in a different font. it genuinely boggles my mind, stranger things seems like it was genuinely made for a specific set audience but just so happened to become mainstream and that’s why so many people are so tone deaf to what’s actually going on in the show. how a decent chunk of the audience likes billy when he’s canonically a horrible person, how people couldn’t pick up that will was gay when it was literally shoved in ur face since season one, how the show is literally about being proud to be a nerd, a geek, a freak in the midst of supernatural events.

do y’all pick up what i’m putting down?

[skidar]

Unrequited love is not queer bait :)

Just cause your ship didn’t happen doesn’t mean that its queer bait. Fan about it all you want but cannon and fannon are a ven diagram. Don’t throw a tantrum when its not a complete circle.

Queer characters existing outside of a relationship is not queer bait :) Go figure, queer people CAN be single AND interesting (and still queer!).

If your end game for all queer characters is to shoe horn them into a queer relationship to ‘prove’ they are queer (see also: ‘prove they are queer ‘enough’ for you) then your taste is just boring af sorry not sorry.

Coding characters as queer, using it to gain profit, then sidelining them all plot to spotlight straight leads is queer bait *IF* the show is marketed as being queer off the bat. That’s a bait and switch.

See queer bait example: Marvel unleashes its first openly gay character in Avengers Endgame! Then gives us a single sentence from a nameless side character with less than a minute of screen time. *marketed as gay to draw views, sidelined and let down as its completely insignificant and able to be easily cropped from the plot*

See example of not queer bait: *Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 2 Spoilers*

*

*

*

*

Will Byers pining for his best friend but knowing it may never be isn’t queer bait. Will is still queer. This is something Will struggles with from the beginning of S4 to the last episode. It’s heartbreaking to love a friend that doesn’t love you back. Your dearest and oldest friend at that. It can make you feel like one wrong step you can lose them forever. In one fell swoop you lose not only the crush your heart aches for but the friend you so desperately want in your corner. Will struggles with direct communication because the thought of losing Mike is literal torture to him. This ENTIRE plot between them is so relatable to the experience of queer existence that the audacity to label it as queer baiting because ‘I didn’t get my ship dammit’ is baffling! This is literally so raw and emotional and accurate to the queer experience. Its not pure trauma porn, its anxiety and angst and deep love that makes these interaction HURT to witness but Will still loves Mike. Even if Mike will never love him back in the same way. Even when it hurts him to feel left out and sidelined in this next stage in their lives Will LOVES Mike and will never stop being his friend. Staying in his corner, filling him with hope and reassurance and helping him with El because dammit Will desperately hopes that Mike will have his back when and if Will ever does come out. And yet he’s hesitant because that fear is always there. They love you til they don’t. And its your best friend. And the stakes are SO high.

Byler not being ‘cannon’ in S4 is not queer bait. Its some of the deepest truth into queer existence I’ve seen on screen and even on the side among many plot threads and heartfelt moments this season it still touches home hard in a way no other character actions have.

And bless Jonathan for seeing his brother and loving him so much and REASSURING him that he will ALWAYS have HIM even if he’s got no one else. Do you have any idea what sort of lifeline that is? It was raw and messy and a massive relief for Will. A massive confidence stepping stone and the feeling that he is not suffering alone.

To reiterate, queer characters existing outside of queer relationships in shows/books is not queer bait. You’re still queer regardless of your relationship status. These stories need to be told too. It’s all in how its marketed and honestly, STS4′s marketing was pretty keyed in on the whole end of the world plot line, not Will’s dating life.

This is my two cents. Agree if you want or not but I just scrolled through way too many queer bait rants on my timeline and had to say something even if just to the great blue void.

--

While we’re at it I thought vol 2 was pretty lackluster in terms of the SLOW AF villain monologues from Vecna that had me drumming my fingers impatiently to annoying cut scenes from all the characters in crisis.

Russia plot was the same, I wanted to get back to the action.

Don’t even talk to be about Eddie I still hurt...

ALSO I kept seeing this marketed as the last season so when it ended THERE and all these threads were yet to wrap up I was pretty ticked but now I see there’s a whole other season I guess??

Overall, I really did like season 4, I thought it was most riveting to watch since S2 cause the stakes felt so high. I’m excited to see what happens next season and I hope there’s lots more Erica and Robin cause I loved that they got more screen time this round.

[tiringwritings]

those last two episode of stranger things were a mess, honestly. i love byler and i’m not just angry because my ship hasn’t become canon. it’s just so unfair.

mike and will were real best friends before season three happened. mike used to care about will as much as the latter did.

he was a good friend, he cared.

but since el came into the picture he just became to get further and further from will.

which we can still explain because well she is his girlfriend, and maybe he has new priorities now. you know having a first girlfriend/boyfriend is exciting, you want to do everything with them and you distance yourselves from your friends because you wanna spend time with your loved one. maybe he didn’t even notice getting far away. it’s okay. we get it.

however that still doesn’t give him the privilege

to treat his “best friends” in certain way.

especially when your said best friend has pointed to you what you’re doing, how distant you have been, how the friendship now doesn’t feel like before.

best thing for will, which i expect to see at this point and as an advice given from someone who experienced something very close to what he went through, should be to end his friendship with mike.

will is too good for mike. he puts mike over over and over his own good.

why spending so much effort? why spending all of yourself on something that it’s not even worth? and you know it’s not worth because will already has pointed to mike what the problem is and mike has done nothing to repair their friendship.

he just brushed the thought out of his mind since will moved. never contacted him. never cared to see if everything was okay. nothing.

mike has so many things he has to make amend for, honestly:

• ‘its not my fault you don’t like girls’,

• making will feel shitty about himself for not reaching out when it was supposed to be him reaching out especially since will already had pointed out to him that he felt mike distant. (p.s a supposedly good friend would have wrote some letters or called at least to prove that he’s trying to be a better friend ). +bonus point to being the best shitty friend to ever exist: cause this happened during will birthday, and mike not only didn’t remember but also did this so yeah

• mike doesn’t question will being strange around him.

• mike doesn’t question the fact that will said el commissioned the painting when el sent him a letter saying: “idk what is this painting he’s doing but he’s all acting strange i guess it’s for a girl” . he doesn’t question because he doesn’t care anymore about will, or better said will is the last of his priorities now.

• he doesn’t ask why will is tearing up and okay he might be thinking that it’s because will cares about el so much but he’s tearing up and a good friend would still ask if there’s maybe something else to it. or at least show some comfort. will is crying and mike is the one being comforted. how unnatural is this.

• he lies to will. says that they would solve things together, but as soon as el comes back in the picture will disappears for him.

i cried so much for will cause what happened to him was so human it’s scary.

what happens to him is so relatable in a way that scares me. because only in real life i have seen people acting as mike: pretending that they’re your friends but doing absolutely nothing to prove it, or not caring.

and honestly, honestly

think how bad will loves him, to not explode.

i mean he did, four times, but always lies the truth.

you know what, i hope they make him burst one more time. just one more. and that time make him end things with mike.

he must tell mike how shitty of a friend he has been for the last years.

he must shout to him how many times he had to suppress himself and his feelings because he cared for their friendship, and for nothing.

because mike keeps ruining it just more and more.

i hope that is how it goes because that what mike deserves, even if with how they made the character act i’m sure the new mike won’t even try.

he would just blame will because that’s what he does now.

[aphlys88]

a mileven analysis/rant in relation to the other main ships in the show + me going off topic

Before you start this is not a pro-Mileven post or anything. Im going to analyze(or at least try) their relationship in relation to others, and relate that to how they're not making it out of s4 vol 2. STRANGER THINGS S4 SPOILERS IN THIS POST

This is also my first analysis of anything. if I get anything wrong pls correct me. this analysis/rant is all over the place lmao. I'm also writing this cus my stranger things brain rot is crazy rn.

I'd like to start out by saying I do think Mike loved/liked El in a romantic way at some point, most likely being in seasons 1 and 2. What the two of them had in the first two seasons is highly reminiscent of first love, or puppy love, because that's what it was Mike has never been in a relationship or really had a friendship(to my knowledge) with a girl. El was raised in a lab, Mike was one of the first people she met, he took her in, and the story goes from there.

I think the circumstances of their relationship also play a factor in their later relationships and eventually lead to their downfall. Mileven is very much a middle school, first love, puppy love relationship like I said before. 9/10 these don't work out. They're also kind of codependent on each other which isn't always good in s3. Milevens point out that Lumax and Dustin x Susie are other middle schools/first love relationships that work. However, these ships have many things in common as well as different from each other.

Lumax

Lucas and Max are a relationship that people like to bring up concerning Mileven. Like Mileven, they have their rough patches, but ultimately, they end up making up together in the end. In season 4, the obstacle facing Lumax is that Max doesn't want to open up to others, she shuts herself and her emotions off from people in her life, and doesn't let anyone know what's going on with her, or her life and Lucas not exactly "seeing her". This brings a problem that leads to their breakup, (Max is going through a lot, and doesn't feel fit for a relationship with anyone right now). However, we see that both of them try to take steps to fix the rift that is caused between them. Lucas admits that he wasn't there, and Max feels regretful for closing herself off. Although they haven't gotten back together in vol.1 This sets up the likely possibility of them getting back together in vol. 2.

Communication is what helped fixed the rift between them. Communication is something Mileven doesn't really have in this season.

Mileven + Me getting off track and ranting a little.

Mileven has essentially 3 rifts this season that are pushing them apart.

Mike not being able to say I love you/not listening.

El's lie

Mike's view of El.

Mike not being able to say I love you has been debated a lot since this season came out. Mike isn't the best at expressing himself, and it's also true that his parents are in a loveless relationship thus making it harder for him to say it, he can't even write it either. Which I think is important. Being able to write simply, "love Mike" should be something extremely simple for Mike to do. He doesn't even write it on the flowers that he's given El. It's because the love isn't there. Also, I don't like the argument that Mike and Nancy can't say I love you because of their parent's loveless relationship because Nancy can tell Jonathan "I love you" and tell other people she loves Jonathan. Mike can't even do this. She couldn't tell Steve she loved him, because she didn't love Steve. Simple. Stancy parallels Mileven also, but this has been discussed a lot on the Byler tag so I'm not gonna get into it.

El also lied to Mike. She didn't tell him about how bad things were for her and Will in California, which obviously makes Mike upset. It's understandable as to why she would lie, but in the end, it's still wrong. It's also interesting because her whole motto is "Friends don't lie,", and she finally lied. This isn't a small lie like what they broke up over in season 3, it's kinda major. It's also like the lie/secret with Jancy currently, where he didn't tell Nancy about not applying to their dream college, and lying and saying he didn't get a letter. These are both major things that could tear apart their relationship.

The final rift is Mike seeing her as a monster, and how his view of her has changed. In El's mind, the way Mike reacted toward the Angela debacle, is how Brenner reacted to her when he found her after she banished 001. He was scared, disappointed, and genuinely saw her as a monster, since he thought she caused all of this. I don't think Mike really saw her as a monster, it wouldn't make sense because he's seen her do so many worse things. Also, his view towards El has changed this season. He sees her more as someone who saved him, someone great, someone amazing who has superpowers. He idolizes her in a sense. It's seen in their fight in episode 3. He calls her a superhero, he feels as if other people are trying to ruin them, tearing them apart, etc. He obviously cares for her and loves her because he's hellbent on trying to get her back, but not because he loves her in that way. Idk I'm not good at explaining this. but anyways.

Also the take "The duffers aren't gonna make Byler canon because they spent 3 seasons building up Mileven, they're not gonna break them up for Will" is a bad excuse cus writers do it all the time in shows. (Riverdale, Bojack Horseman, You, Greys Anatomy, just to name a few). Also! When writers do this, it's to show over time the flaws in the relationship. It's to show that they weren't a perfect fit for each other, no matter how much the fans think it is. also queerbait but that's another rant.

Dustin and Suzie.

I'm making this section short cus there isn't much to say about/for them in relation to Mileven. In s3 and s4 Dustin and Suzie are on good terms. They're in a long-distance relationship along with Jancy and Mileven. Dustin also looks up to his girlfriend and has high praise for her, like Mike. Though he loves her for other reasons, and her being a "superhero" isn't a big thing about their relationship, why they got together, etc etc. Also, it seems that Dustin and Suzie communicated frequently(before she lost her stuff) and affirm their love for each other a lot that way. All Mike and El had were letters.

Season's 4 runtime is Just 5 minutes short of 4 hours. That's essentially 4 extra episodes fitting into Vol. 2. Though, even though this is a long time, most of this time will go to the storylines intertwining, and defeating Vecna. This isn't enough time to fix all the problems Mike and El have going on. I personally don't think the breakup will happen until everything's over and dealt with. I see it as a mutually healthy breakup, where they realize that they weren't the same 12/11-year-olds and have grown apart. El is growing and becoming her own person, Mike is probably trying to work out or realize his feelings for Will, and is coming to terms with the difference between loving and caring for someone. It would be best for them to part here and spend some time apart, which would set up perfectly for Byler in s5.

Where does Byler relate to all this?

Definitely endgame. I don't think it'll become canon in season 4, but I feel like realistically, the building blocks will be there for canonization in s5.

But in all actuality, I don't think Will is going to try and confess this season unless it gets vecna'd outta him. Since it's practically confirmed that he's gonna be a victim of Vecna. What I see happening, is Mike realizing his feelings towards Will while he's in danger, a scene with the painting after, which will affirm yeah he probably likes Will. Which will then push Mike and El to breakup, and for Mike to spend time to himself to try and figure out where he'll go from here.

TLDR: mileven isn't gonna workout and you cant use ships like lumax jancy stancy Dustin x Suzie etc to affirm how its gonna work out cus it's not lmao. also, Byler is def endgame, iont think it'll be canon in s4, but I do def see mike realizing his feelings towards will by the end of volume 2. byler canon byler real

[kaypeace21]

The St d&d comic is giving strong byler vibes-and I’m here for it!

First we have in ch2 Mike being very defensive about Will-when visiting him in the hospital (between s1 /s1, 1 month time skip).

 Mike in s3 used the excuse of Nana to not talk to and lie to El -and the Will/nana parallel means (like s3 implied) Will is the reason mike actually wanted to avoid /lie to El. 

Mike says before d&d he was  “scared ALL the time “ of what everyone think of him- boys at school, his own family at home-he was scared everywhere he WENT. Sounds like a boy paranoid someone will find out -he’s not ‘normal”(cough gay).

On the next page-he admits d&d taught him to deal with homoph*bic bullies (troy and james) which he called “monsters at school”. And just like s1 - the bullying still mostly target Mike- despite Will being there.

He grows more and more insecure about how his friends will no longer want to play d&d again. And thinks he’s “stupid” for being so hung up on being so emotionally attached to the game-echoing Will’s feelings in s3 in relation to d&d etc.  

*It’s like how in s3, Will calls himself “stupid” after fighting with Mike and saying he thought they’d play the game for the rest of their lives (and not get gfs).Flo in s1: “only love makes you that crazy and that damn stupid.” In s2, next to their feet was the d&d game -when Mike and Will agree to go “crazy together”.I also told you Mike was bluffing in that s3 fight- why he got upset Will tried to give the game away at the end of the season 3 . And still had every d&d drawing Will gave him on his wall -throughout s1-3).

In the comic, Mike gets very insecure and upset when he assumes Will doesn’t want to play the game anymore- and like I mentioned in prior posts Mike (at the end of s1) decides to write a d&d story for Will. This assumption of mine was confirmed by this comic...

Mike eventually breaks down and cries admitting to Nancy  he’s “scared” for Will cause he can’t accept Will being a ‘victim’.Will HAS TO BE a hero to Mike .(which i don’t know- ‘victim’ is a very loaded term- kind of gives credence to my DID/C*A theory maybe). Plus, the idea that Mike is “scared” of what his family/strangers think of him and how he similarly is “scared” for Will- could be a hint they’re both lgbt. Mike dealing with homoh*bic “monsters at school” and Will dealing with literal “monsters” (that represent Will’s issues with his sexuality/ab*sive h*mophobic dad). And Mike as a child wants Will to destr*y that symbolic monster and help him do so.

Also notice his sad face of calling himself “stupid” matches his expression of being “scared” for Will.*Hopefully this is a hint Nancy will be accepting of byler (even if it takes a while).This discussion leads up to what we see at the end of s1. Mike in the last ep in s1 ,writes a d&d story for Will.  in ep one Will tells Mike “it was a 7, the demogorgan it got me.”At the end of the season Mike writes a whole story of him and his friends killing a 7 headed monster, and showing the decapitated head of the monster to king Tristan (Will). Similar to how at the hospital he tells Will to not worry cause “it’s dead now”. This is right after Will rolls a 14 (cause Mike and Will are 7s together). And Mike who is a fan of starwars has King Tristan give them medals after killing the monster. Cause he wants Will/king tristan (instead of Leia -a girl/princess) to present him with medals and be his romantic love interest.

After talking to Nancy ,Mike says in order for Will to be the hero -everyone (not just himself) has to work together to help . We also have Karen hug Will in identical framing of how she hugged Mike (after Will’s death). AWWW- we get it he’s your future son in law- karen . XD

These themes of the comic hint at what i already discussed in  more detail- in this previous post- Mike was bluffing about not wanting to play. Mike dedicated and wrote that s1 story specifically for Will. Like the pilot scripts mentioned about Will/Mike- d&d is used as an “escape” for both boys about their sexualities-and is heavily linked to their relationship in various scenes. In the pilot, they even say Will has “sexual identity issues” and uses d&d to “escape” his insecurities about his sexuality “like mike” & Mike uses d&d to “escape” his insecurities about not having a gf.  And no, dustin & Lucas didn’t use d&d to “escape” anything- in the pilot script bios.

ch1 also shows Mike was the one to tell Will about the game- he also gave him the nickname “Will the wise.” 

Plus, lol in ch 1 Lucas says romance books are useless (while Mike defends it’s worth-cough cause he low key writes one for Will in ch2).And Will symbolically runs away from romance as Mike chases him and says “wait up”. LOL XD

I take the comics with a grain of salt- as far as them being canon or only partially canon. But so far- pretty cute. So i wanted to share.

[sttheorycraft]

There Came an Echo

In Season 2, there's a melancholy, relaxing song that plays in three different scenes: In S2E2 with Will/Mike's Crazy Together scene, then leading into Jonathan tucking Nancy into bed, and then again in S2E7 when Eleven and Kali are just meeting.

It's called Outside the Realm, and it's from a 2015 video game called There Came an Echo. Synopsis information isn't easily available online, but I just watched a playthrough of this game and wanted to summarize the bits that felt relevant both as context to this song and potentially implications to Stranger Things. While this post won't be a total synopsis of the game, spoilers are ahead (enough to ruin pretty much most of the interesting bits of the game) so be warned.

The Game

So again, this isn't a full synopsis, it's just the bits that I think are interesting or could relate to Stranger Things.

Basically the game revolves around this futuristic technology which is capable of capturing someone's brain state in detail and then at a later time reconstructing it (think 3D printing a brain into a body in the right configuration) such that the resulting clone believes it's the same person that was scanned. So effectively, it's technology that supports save/restore points in consciousness.

An organization in-game develops this technology and then uses it (first just through simulation) to raise a child with the perfect upbringing - whenever anything goes wrong, they just save/restore until it goes right. The end result (which they do 3D print into a body) is this super genius.

Unfortunately, unbeknownst to everyone, they're living inside a massive simulation ("The Realm" of the song's title) and simulating this level of intelligence unchecked would cause such a massive power drain that the simulation would have to be shut down. So some outside forces basically ruin that person's life to reduce the energy drain (saving the other life forms in the simulation from shutting it down).

At some point they escape the simulation and meet the steward of it, who is a creature from some ancient civilization which, filled with existential dread, has basically created lots of simulations to try to bring about other intelligences and add meaning to their world. The creature is kind but fair, and basically a goddess from their perspective. The song plays when they're outside the simulation interacting with this creature.

Finally, the game flirts with religious topics (and honestly, not very intelligently in some ways - it was pretty offensive towards atheists in particular). It dealt a bit with souls, because of course that's the question with this new technology: is the clone lesser because it (the characters assume) doesn't have a soul?

...

Possible Ties to Stranger Things

Honestly, I mostly don't think the game ties in much here, unless I'm missing something. There was however one line in the game that jumped out at me in big, bold letters:

"You can copy her cells, her brainwaves, but she isn't the same. She's just... an echo." - Grace, There Came an Echo

When the characters learn that one of them was this super genius that was 3D printed after being cloned over and over, a couple of them aren't too impressed. Several characters don't think that the clone is the "same" as the restored creature, that it's worth less (because of it lacking a soul seems to be the reasoning behind it).

This is especially interesting to me because even before I got why the game was titled "There Came an Echo", I was thinking that "echo" is a perfect way to describe how I see Eleven's sometimes empty-feeling imitation of others. Like there's something missing there, like she's constrained to produce only what she hears (like a Kenku), in a way that I don't think is simply because of her overly restricted upbringing (though I totally accept I could be wrong, it just feels like a hint).

Then combining it with my theory that Eleven came from the Upside Down, that she potentially died in the water tank, and her psychic reflection became real by passing through the Gate just like the Demogorgon, completely fits with the theme of this game. The version of Eleven we know best clearly has the memories of the Eleven from the tank, but I'm suspecting it's a copy, and isn't completely the same. That the quote above directly fits Eleven.

I guess time will tell...

...

Usage of Beyond the Realm

I don't however see a tie between the video game and the meaning of the song they used in the show. Perhaps Kali is closest to tying into it - the goddess's name is Iris in the game, and right when the song starts in S2E7, Kali's imaginary butterfly cycles through the colors of the rainbow on its wings (yet another rainbow appearance in Stranger Things). But that's only 1 of the 3 times the song was used, and evidently not the usage the show cared most about:

https://www.pcgamer.com/au/stranger-things-season-two-features-a-song-from-this-voice-controlled-indie-strategy-game/

"It's funny because the show is developed under a code name and while the description of the usage is in the contract, it's really super vague, so even with 'context' I didn't really know anything.  Stuff like 'two friends are talking and comfort each other.' So you can imagine how thrilled I was when I learned that the mystery show was actually Stranger Things 2."

If I were to summarize what the three scenes have in common, it seems to be about like someone's missing half. There's also a longing there I think. And there's ambiguity (in this context alone) with Byler vs Mileven there, because the song kicks on when Mike is speaking about Eleven.

[oldfashionedmorphine]

It’s just so Mike 😭 (my interpretation after lyrics)

[Verse 1]

A warning sign

I missed the good part, then I realised

I started looking and the bubble burst

I started looking for excuses

[Pre-Chorus]

Come on in

I've gotta tell you what a state I'm in

I've gotta tell you in my loudest tones

That I started looking for a warning sign

[Chorus]

When the truth is

I miss you

Yeah, the truth is

That I miss you so

[Verse 2]

A warning sign

You came back to haunt me and I realised

That you were an island and I passed you by

When you were an island to discover

[Pre-Chorus]

Come on in

I've gotta tell you what a state I'm in

I've gotta tell you in my loudest tones

That I started looking for a warning sign, yeah

[Chorus]

When the truth is

I miss you

Yeah, the truth is

That I miss you so

[Post-Chorus]

And I'm tired

I should not have let you go

[Outro]

So I crawl back into your open arms

Yes, I crawl back into your open arms

And I crawl back into your open arms

Yes, I crawl back into your open arms

About the song:

[This song is about a man who is "Looking for excuses," or reasons to leave his lover. He is afraid of commitment and looks for warning signs that will tell him he should leave. After looking for "warning signs" he realizes he misses his lover and he took her for granted ("you were an island and I passed you by"). Luckily, she is willing to come back, as you can see in the line, "So I crawl back into your open arms."

Martin hated this song, so much so he tried to remove it from A Rush of Blood to the Head and refused to perform it live. Speaking about his intense dislike for "Warning Sign," Martin explained to Crud Magazine in 2002: "The reason I don't like the song 'Warning Sign' is that it makes you feel sorry for the singer, whereas in fact I know it was written at a time when I was being a total knob. And that's the great joy of music is that one can present oneself as a romantic hero, whereas in fact in real life, that was written in one of my immense periods of being a dickhead."]

My thoughts:

I just think it relates so well to their issues in S3 and S4. Even though they aren’t a couple (yet), they have so many coded conversations and their bond is so deep. But Mike starts to ignore Will or pass him over for El despite having spent so much time by his side in the previous season. Mike is pushing Will away because he can’t face his feelings. He’s afraid. When the Byers move to California, I think that’s when Mike realized how he took Will being in his life for granted. You can’t convince me he didn’t miss Will more. Not just because his best friend since he was 5 was gone, but also because he has repressed feelings for him. The whole “It’s Hawkins, it’s not the same without you— I feel like I lost you” is just him saying just how much he truly missed him and his life feels wrong without him. The truth is, I miss you so / I should not have let you go. Which I think he didn’t want to admit at first, because he felt Will didn’t feel the same and it would be weird if he cared more, but then he basically does crawl back to Will’s open arms when he realizes he was wrong, since Will did miss him just as much. (And it’s funny how the singer talks about how he hated the song cause it makes him seem like he wasn’t in the wrong and the listener will feel sorry for him, but he knows he was really being a “dickhead” during that time, which reminds me of Mike lol)

Also, so many Coldplay songs are byler coded 😭

[willthecleric]

heey firstly i hope you're having a nice day :))

and secondly, i was thinking about that video of that fanmio with finn where he got asked if he shipped byler and (maybe you or someone has mentioned this before, and if so i'm sorry) i realised

the question was if he shipped byler and he went straight to saying "we'll have to see what the duffers write" like, that's not what they asked, right? like, they mentioned byler and his mind went straight to the "is it canon" topic, perhaps cause it's a bigger topic in s4, like maybe when they mentioned byler he was so focused on not slipping it was canon that he tried to leave that ambiguous when it wasn't really necessary cause that wasn't the question? like you know in Friends when they have to hide from ross's wife that rachel is with them and joey's first instinct is to say "idk who's here but it definitely isn't rachel" when he could've just not mentioned her and come out clean? that's the vibe im getting (chances are i'm overthinking)

like alright maybe he knew if he said he did ship it, then bylers would get maybe a little too hyped and relate it to it being canon, so he just said we'll have to see, but idk he could've been like "idk i haven't thought about it" or "it's nice, i've seen stuff on it before" y'know to keep it ambiguous, but instead he talked about it being or not being canon and never even mentioned how he felt about it, he mentioned people could ship whatever they wanted but never if he did or didn't, so nonetheless he sounds like he's trying to hide a piece of information somewhere

i know they probably have to be careful with their answers so nobody goes crazy over what they say, so maybe answering if he did or didn't ship it could cause a little chaos (not that mentioning whether it may or may not be canon wouldn't cause just as much), on the other hand, it's pretty much the viewer's responsibility to assume something over an actor's personal opinions? but i guess it is more of a sensitive topic if there's a possibility of it actually happening in the show (i know he didn't have much time to think about a perfect answer to the question since it was live (not with an audience but between the two) but that brings me back to how "canon" was the first thing that came to him)

i'm sorry it's 4am and i'm blabering a lot and craving for new byler evidence but i hope my point makes some sense, i could definitely be overthinking but it's just a thought :D

TLDR: when they asked finn if he shipped byler he went straight to talking about whether it's canon (aka not rlly what they asked), like canon is the first thing that crossed his mind

Hi, Anon! I did have a nice day. I hope you have one too. :)

I love discussing Finn and Noah in regards to Byler. I don't think you are overthinking this at all. There is definitely something to it. I do think Finn was taken off guard because no one generally asks him this question and he tried his best to to dodge it but did not really know the best way to do it. So he ended up talking about the Duffers writing what they write. But then realized that he shouldn't have really stated that, so he went to cover for it by saying that people can ship what they want. That was just my read of things and the way that he was acting within the video. I do think it being canon did cross his mind (like I think he probably does ship Byler - it just seems like the kind of pairing he would enjoy). And honestly, I think he is excited as well. I remember him saying before S3 came out that he is looking forward to where Mike is heading. And we can all guess as to what he was referring to there. I do feel for Finn because he is in a delicate position where he can't say much because on one hand there is Bylers and on the other hand there is Milevens. And of course he can get in trouble for saying too much.

And believe me, I get craving new Byler evidence. :D

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I respect your opinion, and even if our opinions do not agree, I always read your posts with rapture. My question is: if I understood correctly(correct me if I’m wrong),you think that Jancy and Jopper don’t have a deep connection, while Byler does? How does it manifest? Jancy and Jopper have always supported each other, they have a deep connection both emotionally and mentally. While Mike in Season 3 left a friend for a girl. I have nothing against Byler, just want to read your arguments

I appreciate your kind words. I can probably safely say that you are the first person to ever claim to feel rapturous because of me. The following is, naturally, my opinion, and, while I believe it to be an educated opinion, it is as such not meant to cause offense if it clashes with your or anyone else’s opinion.

 think Jancy and Jopper are relationships with a mutual attraction. The problem is they haven’t really had much opportunity to develop in a healthy fashion. I don’t think either relationship is necessarily bad, but they are both still formed on a foundation of shared traumatic experience. Yes, each couple was acquainted before the supernatural horror entered their lives, but they weren’t close. They ended up growing close as they supported each other through the various crises that have cropped up. When we see them not in the midst of trauma, they are shown not really understanding each other very well. 

Mike and Will, on the other hand, have known each other, and have been best friends, since kindergarten. Mike has always been intensely protective of Will and fearful of something happening to him. The thought of losing Will has been a great fear of his since season 1. Will and Mike trust each other in a way they don’t with anyone else. They reveal secrets to each other, sharing their vulnerabilities. Will starts to regain some semblance of control over himself after Mike relates the story of their first meeting. You can literally see his eyes change from a blank stare when Mike starts speaking to teary eyes when Mike finishes. 

Season 3 was there to show us that every relationship had problems, but we never really got to see any definitive resolution for any of them. Jonathan and Nancy had no understanding of each other’s unique goals, insecurities, or hurdles, and this led to their fight. Jonathan couldn’t accept that Nancy, as a woman, needed to work twice as hard to get accepted. Nancy was blind to the fact that Jonathan couldn’t afford to blow the internship since he didn’t have family resources to fall back on. We never really see them apologize and acknowledge what each other are going through, and Jonathan even tosses Nancy’s careless Oliver Twist jab back at her. Meanwhile, Hopper and Joyce are just a mess. Joyce is still mourning Bob. Hopper asks her out to dinner, but also promises it’s not a date. Nevertheless, when she skips out on it to talk to Mr. Clark, he becomes enraged with her and bounces between admiration and callousness towards her for the remainder of the season. Neither one felt comfortable just telling the other their feelings. They finally agree on a real date at the end (where they weren’t even sure they would survive), but I don’t recall either one really apologizing (correct me if I’m wrong).

Mike and Will’s problems, meanwhile, aren’t about the failure to build the relationship, but, rather, the apparent (in Will’s mind) decline of it. It starts small, with Will being annoyed at Mike spending a lot of time with El (being late to the movie and bailing on Dustin’s radio booster). Still, we see that Mike is still intensely concerned for Will at the movie, and we see how much it hurts Will when it seems like Mike doesn’t care anymore. Their problems come across as more genuine because of their already established bond. Their fight is showcased as very dramatic, and perhaps even tragic, compared to the other two. We also see how each one is uniquely upset, with Mike chasing Will to apologize (Mike never apologizes that easily) and Will tearing down Castle Byers in anguish.

Mike and Will is also a unique situation in that they’re both boys. This makes it hard for both of them to even understand their feelings, let alone accept them. Mike is off trying to force a clearly empty relationship (all kissing, no shared interests or conversation) with El. He may well know that he has “inappropriate” feelings for Will, or he may just be unconsciously displacing his feelings onto El. Either way, comparing his “break ups” with both El and Will, we can see which one hurt him more. Meanwhile, Will is stuck in the cliche position of “gay kid in love with his best friend but has to pretend he isn’t.” This is the case whether he knows it or not. The fact that they’re both hiding feelings (from either themselves or each other) is a stark contrast to the trust they normally share. Their scene when Will packs up his D&D set for donation is a bit closer towards being honest, but still guarded. They use D&D as a stand-in for their feelings, with Mike afraid that Will is moving on, but Will reassuring him that it’s “not possible.” Neither one is ready just yet, but they’re letting each other know their feelings are still there.

Time makes relationships. Neither Jopper nor Jancy have really had the opportunity needed to grow compared to Byler. Jopper never really got going, and Jancy seems to have some problems that fans either don’t notice or prefer to ignore. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times, shared traumatic experiences do not magically make for good relationships. It’s not impossible for them to become closer, but it would have to happen as it would with any relationship. Supporting each other is only one part of a relationship, and Jancy and Jopper have some elements of that, though Season 3 shows us that it’s still sorely lacking. Mike and Will already had all of this before the show even started. 

It makes me sad and angry sometimes when fans don’t even notice how strong Mike and Will’s feelings are for each other, but instead see new, struggling (and somewhat problematic) relationships as cute and romantic. Jancy and Jopper are both somewhat promising, but flawed, relationships that just haven’t had time, or the correct environment, to grow close. Byler has problems, but those problems are rooted in the fact that they were already very close, but in a situation where their closeness is changing meaning. I suppose it’s a bit of a cheat to have Byler ahead naturally simply because they were already written as close, but it still sets them apart from other couples.

[finnickodaiir]

I don’t see how you could watch the show and NOT think Will needs to have a storyline related to Lonnie. We saw Jonathan and Joyce with Lonnie and hopefully we get to see them deal with their trauma related to him but Will- I mean it’s pretty explanatory why that relationship needs to be explored. Why wouldn’t someone want that? What brenner is to El is what Lonnie is to Will (and the Byers in general).

Hi anon, my answer is a lot longer than you probably expected, so I put it under the cut:

People who claim that Will and Lonnie will not interact at all and that its only Jonathan’s arc are being willfully ignorant and are in denial. Why we would see Jonathan and Lonnie’s relationship being explored again? He already had the arc of rejecting his father's ways and telling him where to go in Season One, if that happened in S4, he would be having the same arc twice (which would just prove the Duffers don’t know what to do with him). It makes way more sense if Will is the one whose arc will involve interacting with his father. He hasn't yet rejected his father's ways, which can be proved by the fact that he chose to destroy Castle Byers with a bat (Lonnie tried to "man him up" by taking him to baseball games), that he said he isn't going to fall in love (Jonathan was, as far as I remember, was quite skeptical of romantic relationships as well in S1, which was a result of his parents' marriage and eventual divorce), he took Mike’s claims about "not liking girls" seriously, which proves it's likely true and that he suffers from a lot of internalized homophobia caused by his father's and classmates' homophobia (and there's also that fact that it's the 1980s, but one thing doesn’t rule out the other). Also, I think that saying that Lonnie shouldn’t play a part at all in Will's arc S4 (it's about a post I saw on Sunday), because he "wasn't deeply affected" (which as I pointed out that earlier is bullshit) or "wasn't affected by Lonnie as much as Jonathan", is both wrong and rather offensive, because this isn't a competition of who suffered the most. The reason why certain people don’t want that is because they think Will is a minor character who is there to be nice to the main ones and suffer in silence. Some of them are now acknowledging that he is gay but say he will only come out and will sit in the background for the rest of the show (which I think is pretty problematic, because if you confirm that a character is LGBTQ+ and then you don't flesh that character out at all, then you only did it for representation points). I didn't really want to bring ship wars into the discussion, but I feel like most of the "Is Will important or not" discourse boils down to the Byler vs Mileven ship war (which as toxic as it is, I think revealed some people's true feelings when it comes Will and LGBTQ+ rep, but I'll elaborate in another post), most of the people who don't want him to have a big storyline, happen to be Milevens, because if he is just a minor character, then in their minds chances of Byler happening are low, which misses the point, because not every main character necessarily ends up with another main character (basing this on their idea that Will is a minor character), for example, Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley, Phoebe and Mark from Friends. So, yeah, I do believe the fact that most of the “Will shouldn't have much of a storyline in S4″ boils down to ship wars. I'm not saying he is the main character (this show has a lot of main characters, every character whose actor is credited among the main cast, should be considered a main character in my opinion), but he is not a minor character either, if he was then why would the Duffers create parallels between him and El? Why would his disappearance in S1 be the thing that drives the plot and his possession in S2 and why is he still connected to the Upside Down/The Mind Flayer? If he was a minor character of little importance, then his role in the show would be a small one like Mr. Clarke and wouldn’t affect the plot that much, but it isn’t. And the fact that he was used rather sparingly by the writers in S3 doesn't change that, S3 was about "the summer of love and being a teenager", Will isn't in a relationship and was reluctant to let go of his childhood, so it makes sense that he wasn't super involved and also El’s storyline in S2 didn't have that much to do with the main plot until the finale, her story in that season was mostly about family (bonding with Hopper, meeting Terry and Becky Ives, Kali), in some ways it was a journey of self-discovery. I think it was the writers intended to with Will last season, but if they had gone too deep into it, then they would have to explore certain things they probably hope to do in later seasons. In S3 we see Will feeling out of place in the "summer of love" and he still doesn’t want to let go of his childhood hobbies, but that changes after episode 3, in that episode he ends up lashing out at Lucas and Mike, their reactions suggest that he doesn't do that often or never did that before. He ends up that episode destroying Castle Byers, which symbolizes him letting go of his childhood, he also warns them about the Mind Flayer's return and takes a backseat, because after all this is still the summer of love and because he is not in a relationship, in some ways he has no place in the summer of love. But that's not to say he didn't have any growth at all, he still speaks up and calls other Party members out when he believes they are acting foolishly (something that judging by the other boys’ reaction, he never/rarely did before), it wasn't much but it was something when you compare it to S2 Will, who d who suffered in silence and apologized a lot. Sorry anon, this was longer than you probably expected, but I hope I covered most of the things you asked. 

[alabasterswriting]

To the Anons in my Inbox:

Okay, so I just finally got to all the messages in my inbox and I saw quite a few anons that, while I’m not sure if they were from the same person, basically all revolved around the same few questions:

“Why don’t you/You need to write more Mileven/Byler/Lumax/Jopper?/.”

“Why don’t you/You need to write more about Eleven?/.”

“Why don’t you/You need to write more about Mike?/.”

And I would like to take the time here to address all of these anons since there were frankly too many to reply one at a time when they all have the same answer.

So, first things first: If you want me to write something, I will happily do so. I can’t say it will be in a timely manner since I’m super busy and a super slow writer, but if you want to send me a request I will always try to do my best to follow through with it. I never want to let anyone down if they have a request for me.

Second: Why don’t I write more romance?

Frankly, I don’t like romance. It honestly means very little to me. Now, this is not to say I don’t enjoy reading other people’s writings for Mileven/Byler/Jopper/Lumax. Those writers are fantastic and wonderful and they bring these relationships to life. I appreciate and love their work. But, honestly, I don’t enjoy romance. Romantic relationships have always felt very cheap to me in comparison to friendships. And I know this is a very unpopular opinion. I know a lot of people hold romantic relationships above platonic ones. I understand this and will wholeheartedly honor your opinion on it, so long as you honor mine. However, when it comes to my writing, romance is not high on my priorities; it always just feels like it ruins the wonders of the friendship (and yes, I do know that a lot of people feel like romance enhances a friendship, but I am not one of them). Hence why when I write it’s usually about the friendships between the boys, or between the boys and Eleven, or between Will and Eleven. It’s just so much more moving to me. Like I physically can’t bring myself to invest in the ships because I see too much beauty in the friends just being friends.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I do ship Mileven and Jopper and Lumax and Byler (though, once again, I hate feeling like I’m ruining a good friendship by adding romance), but they’re very low on my list of wants or desires (well except for Jopper if only because I want Eleven and Will to be siblings so badly). And this isn’t to say I won’t write about them or that the relationships won’t feature in my stories because they will. It’s just unless someone explicitly asks, it’s unlikely I will ever write a fluffy romance. Sorry.

Three: Why don’t I write more about Eleven and/or Mike?

Honesty hour: I don’t have much of an emotional attachment to Eleven outside of her connection to the boys. I know, I’m sorry! I do like her! She is one of my children, and the actress is phenomenal! Millie Bobby Brown deserves all the credit she receives, but that being said, as the character of Eleven, away from the boys, she doesn’t interest me. And this has nothing really to do with her. I have the same problem with Max and Joyce and Nancy, all of whom I do care about as characters and enjoy. But frankly, these characters are further under rankings in my heart, behind the four boys, Steve, Jonathan and Hopper. Now, this might sound horrible, or weird, or what have you, but it is exceptionally hard for me to get emotionally attached to female characters (and, yes, I am female).

Male characters are so much easier for me to get emotionally attached to, especially when it’s a pair or group of male characters who have a special friendship (because a good bromance will trump any type of relationship in my book). They could be completely 2-dimensional, and the male character would probably still trump a 3-dimensional, realistic, badass, intelligent, incredibly written and performed female character in my affections. And, no, I don’t know why this is. Maybe it’s because I am female that I like attaching myself to a different type of friendship. I don’t know, but that’s why I rarely write Eleven-centric fics. I like writing about her friendships with the boys (especially Will ‘cause he’s so traumatized and she can relate), more than just her.

As for Mike, well, Will is my favorite and I’m just more naturally drawn to writing about him over Mike. As much as I love Mike, I take a few issues with his character in the first season, and while I love his protective nature and loyalty, essentially what it comes down to is everyone always expects me to write a romance angle for him, and, as mentioned above, I hate romance. I love writing about him in the context of his relationships with the boys or Nancy, but I just can’t get myself to really write about his anguish over Eleven. It’s sad and horrible for him, but as someone who draws from my own interests, writing about his pining for El is very hard. I just can’t grasp the yearning for romantic affection. It doesn’t make sense to me in an emotional context. Intellectually, I understand it and can write it if given the time, but emotionally I don’t understand the difference in pining for someone as friends and pining for someone romantically. And if I don’t understand it, I fear doing it an injustice and would hate to let people down.

So sorry for the length, but I really had to let this be said. Now, I know my opinions are unpopular and I am sorry for that, but everyone connects with things differently. If you get heavily invested in these ships and characters then I wholeheartedly support you. Keep it up! Get invested! I know I have ships that I am a diehard fan of (though they’ve generally evolved over 15 years worth of story). And if you want me to write about romance or something El-centric or Mike-centric then I will do it! I will do my absolute best! But please don’t come into my inbox to dictate what I write. Request? Absolutely. Dictate? Absolutely not. Writers write for themselves a lot of the time and I happen to be more invested in platonic relationships than any others.

Thank you.