#nostoi

[masterofthewarcry]

thinking about the curse of house atreides manifesting as madness.

agamemnon starts seeing iphigenia in the corners of rooms after aulis, her dress bloody from where the sacrificial knife went in. all she does is watch him. he starts shrinking in on himself. confusing people. diomedes opposes his talk of abandoning the fight and returning home and agamemnon starts shouting at him except hes calling him achilles. he thinks he sees iphigenia during the sacking of troy, and takes cassandra with him out of the city. his dead daughter sits across from him in the bathtub, and hes so busy looking at her he doesnt see the axe coming down.

menelaus, the longer they spend away from home, becomes more and more prone to explode about the smallest things. he yells at his brother when agamemnon is hesitant to sacrifice his daughter. he throws himself recklessly into the Trojan line day after day. he awards achilles armor to odysseus, knowing that itll upset ajax, wanting ajax to pick a fight. he still argues they should have left ajaxs body to rot after he killed himself. he almost kills helen when he finds her in the sacking, but aphrodite touches his shoulder and clears his mind.

thinking about only one brother making it out.

[lyculuscaelus]

Just imagine that it’s not actually those Trojan War heroes that went to Italy after war, and the cities were in fact founded by their descendants, who attributed the name to their ancestors. So that way we’ll have the Diomedeïdae coming to Apulia, Idomeneïdae to Illyria and then Calabria, Philoctetiadae to Campania, etc. which may not be what happened but historically makes more sense and it’s kinda fun to think about

[ultimate-word-tournament]

Ultimate Word Tournament!

Νόστοι (Greek) Nostoi [nós.toi] 1. the act of returning or going back. 2. "Returns," the title of a lost part of the Epic Cycle.

Eierschalensollbruchstellenverursacher (German) [ˌaɪ̯.ɐˌʃaː.l��nˌzɔl.brʊxˌʃtɛ.lənˌfɛɐ̯ˈuːɐ̯ˌza.xɐ] A device used to create breaking points in egg shells in order to allow one to easily remove the top part of an egg using a knife without causing the shell to splinter; used for the humorous effect of its overly-formal construction: Eierschale (“egg shell”) +‎ Sollbruchstelle (“predetermined breaking point”) +‎ Verursacher (“causer”)

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 21: The Library of Alexandria (Miscellaneous III)

I welcome your suggestions for both Library of Alexandria and other lost works of World Literature and History, as there will be future polls.

[dreamconsumer]

Leucothea preserving Ulysses. By John Flaxman.

[albeyurich]

"Latecoming Diadochus"...

I love Osse. I love Scylla. I love Remuria. Photographs taken during the World Quest Series "Canticles of Harmony"...

... And I miss Cassiodor...

02/02 - After 581 days... Finally AR60!

[emmikay]

*slams door open* Does Chiron have access to the lost works of the epic cycle?

[bonjin-no-kamera]

Somehow, a lot of the photos I take here are of Kaeya or Childe.

[genshinmp3]

Year of Tribulation from Cantus Aeternus Yijun Jiang, HOYO-MiX

[inky-quilled-dragon]

GENSHIN KNOWS WHAT WE FUCKING WANT WOOOOOOOO LETS HEAR IT FOR FELINE FORTRESS MECHANICS STICKING AROUND FOR THE NOSTOI QUEST

WE CAN PET THE CATTTTTTTTTTT

[lyculuscaelus]

End of Nostoi

ἔνθ᾽ ἄλλοι μὲν πάντες, ὅσοι φύγον αἰπὺν ὄλεθρον, οἴκοι ἔσαν, πόλεμόν τε πεφευγότες ἠδὲ θάλασσαν: Now all the others, as many as fled from utter destruction, were at home, having escaped from war and waves. (Odyssey, book 1, line 11–12)

Just a little reminder that Homer put this here for a reason—first of all, to emphasize that the other Achaeans’ toils had been done—their war finished, their home returned, to contrast with Odysseus, a man still trapped on Ogygia, still yearning to return to his home and wife, as the following lines (13–15) point out:

τὸν δ᾽ ο���ον νόστου κεχρημένον ἠδὲ γυναικὸς νύμφη πότνι᾽ ἔρυκε Καλυψὼ δῖα θεάων ἐν σπέσσι γλαφυροῖσι, λιλαιομένη πόσιν εἶναι. But him (Odysseus) alone yearning for his return and his wife, The powerful nymph Calypso, heavenly goddess, still restrained him In her hollow caves, longing for him to be her husband.

This is to incite pathos in the narrative: all of his friends who didn’t die along the way had made it back, but he alone was still suffering. This is again proven by Nestor’s speech in book 3, in which he stated that Diomedes, Neoptolemus, Philoctetes, Idomeneus—the very heroes who would otherwise be wandering around in Italy or in Epirus as other later traditions mentioned—had returned home safely.

Another thing to think about is Dios boulē (Διὸς βουλή), roughly speaking, “Zeus’s plan/will”. It’s quite a dominant theme in Homeric poems, but here I just wanted to point out that it was Zeus who devised the mournful return for Achaeans (and executed by Athena—destruction for others, assistance for Odysseus when he got to Ithaca), as mentioned by Nestor:

καὶ τότε δὴ Ζεὺς λυγρὸν ἐνὶ φρεσὶ μήδετο νόστον Ἀργείοις, ἐπεὶ οὔ τι νοήμονες οὐδὲ δίκαιοι πάντες ἔσαν: τῶ σφεων πολέες κακὸν οἶτον ἐπέσπον μήνιος ἐξ ὀλοῆς* γλαυκώπιδος ὀβριμοπάτρης. And then indeed Zeus in his mind planned a mournful return For Argives, since we all were in no wise prudent or just— Thus many of them met an evil fate Through the destructive wrath of the bright-eyed daughter of that mighty father. (Odyssey, book 3, line 132–135) * “destructive wrath of Athena” or “wrath of destructive Athena”…technically the latter fits the word sequence of the original text better, but considering this ἐξ is moved behind μήνιος due to fit the dactylic structure, I’d say it works for both, and the former one seems more plausible.

The entire point of nostoi was then to punish the Achaeans for their crimes during the sack of Troy; on the other hand, their punishment was already fulfilled during the time of their homecoming. And this would also be the fulfillment Zeus’s plan: for them to return to sing the tales of his plan, from the start of the war to the end of the return.

Thus, in the Homeric context, by the time Odysseus went home, the other Achaeans must have either perished along the way or arrived home safe and sound, with no more trials awaiting. It is the will of Zeus. It is the end of their tribulations. It is the closing of a full cycle—an Epic Cycle.

[keep-on-trying]

Hmmm.

I went to the door to Khaen'riah again. After learning about how suspeciously empty the Nostoi Region's Sumeru parts are. But not all of Sumeru part. To me it seems to be the parts that are right above supposed Khaen'riah location. Image below screencapped from interactive map.

Like, not all of it is empty, the area right above the gate has lots of stuff to do from before Fontaine released. But the rest to the right of it is quite lifeless. Devoid of anything. You could say it's Hoyo being lazy, but it could definitely be a "no point in keeping this area locked up anymore and leave it empty because it will get massive changes later in the story, thus any interactable would become obsolete". It would be bad game design to make such massive area full of temporarily available puzzles.

So, who knows. If they release another area that is so clearly empty of anything to do and it's not really possible for it to be lore related, then it could be chalked as Hoyo not spending enough effort on it, but I want to first see what comes of this area in the future.

[poetas-thougturados]

¿por qué las personas le añaden besos, abrazos o algún gesto memorable a las despedidas? ¿no ven que así una más se acuerda y más le duele?

[lyculuscaelus]

I was in the belief that it’s Conon’s addition to the myth, though it would seem that Pausanias (yes, that well-known geographer from 2nd AD) in his work Collected Attic Words also mentioned the existence of the phrase Διομήδειος ἀνάγκη, with a similar account of this story:

Διομήδειος ἀνάγκη· παροιμία . . . οἳ δέ, ὅτι Διομήδης καὶ Οδυσσεὺς τὸ Παλλάδιον κλέψαντες νυκτὸς ἐκ Τροίας ἐπανήιεσαν, ἑπόμενος δὲ ὁ Ὀδυσσεὺς τὸν Διομήδην ἐβουλήθη ἀποκτεῖναι· ἐν τῆι σελήνηι δὲ ἰδὼν τὴν σκιὰν τὸν ξίφους ὁ Διομήδης, ἐπιστραφεὶς καὶ βιασάμενος τὸν Ὀδυσσέα ἔδησε καὶ προάγειν ἐποίησε παίων αὐτοῦ τῶι ξίφει τὸ μετάφρενον. τάττεται δὲ ἐπὶ τῶν κατ' ἀνάγκην τι πραττόντων.

Here’s Mr. West’s translation of this part if anyone’s curious:

I believe the phrase Διομήδειος ἀνάγκη was pretty common back then in places like Attica, and if what Hesychius of Alexandria said was true, then the author of the Little Iliad might probably be the first one who connected this with the Palladium heist:

Although we still don’t know how it exactly played out in the Little Iliad (since Proclus in his summary didn’t elaborate either), I think it is interesting to see that this backstabbing story didn’t make it into pseudo-Apollodorus’s Epitome—the compendium which relied its account of the Trojan War on the Epic Cycle a lot. And if it didn’t make it there, chances are that the Little Iliad only left a hint of what could have been, meanwhile this story existed back then at a folklore level, just like the version of Odysseus’s death where a heron pooped on his head and he just…died. And pseudo-Apollodorus, as we know it, didn’t collect folklores as often as Pausanias did. So it never showed up even in the infamous Epitome.

Anyways, yeah, I don’t really think it has to do with Roman bias since little is shown in Pausanias’s works that he specifically hated certain heroes, even though there’s the Mantineia story concerning Penelope but you know he’s just collecting local tales as he always did. And here, the locals being the Athenians, it’s really intriguing to see how the people of a city patronized by Athena decided to shittalk abt Odysseus, favored by Athena, during the heist of the Palladium, the statue of Athena.

Heyo!

I don't know how exactly to phrase this but I was wondering if you know anything about Odysseus trying/planing to kill Diomedes while they were stealing the Palladium. I have heard some people say that Odysseus did try to kill Diomedes while doing so but Diomedes noticed him so Odysseus stopped.

This feels so strange to me as Odysseus and Diomedes aren’t antagonistic in the Illiad and Diomedes is loved by Athena like Odysseus so betraying him, especially for hubris, seems like a good way to end up on Athena's bad side.

Also the translated summaries of Little Illiad I know don't mention it either but I know those translations can be missing out context. I suspect the Odysseus Betrayal is a "later adition" to the Epic Cycle but I am not that confident on that opinion.

Yes absolutely and I understand completely what you say. That is because the Palladium Heist betrayal story was peobably not part of the original epic cycle but rather a later adittion. More specifically through the work called Bibliotheca by Photius I, the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinopole in 9th century seems to be mentioning in his work a Roman mythographer named Conon.

Conon lived and created during the times of Augustus. It seems that he is one of the oldest if not the oldest mythographer to ever mention this story. So the story quoted by Photius goes as such;

Basically after the revelation of Helen's Diomedes and Odysseus enter the city. Odysseus helps Diomedes on his shoulders so that he could climb but when he reaches out his hand Diomedes doesn't take him in and goes for the Palladium himself. When he comes back apparently Odysseus asks him on it and, according to Photius who quotes Conon, Diomedes "knows his cunning" and says that he didn't find it. That a spirit stole it and that he has another one. Odysseus realizes he is lying so he eventually draws his sword to kill Diomedes and take the Palladium to the Greeks himself. Apparently as he goes to stab Diomedes in the back, his sword casts a shadow by the moonlight or the glint of the weapon, Diomedes sees it and deflects him. He draws his own sword and threatens Odysseus with it wishing to "punish him for his cowardice" but eventually he decides otherwise (arguably knowing that the war needs him) and thus he drives him back to the camp while hitting him on his back with the flat of his sword. And according to Photius this is what gave the famous phrase to Greek language διομήδεια ανάγκη (Diomedes Need) which basically means "do something unpleasant out of necessity for the greater good"

So as you see the story does seem pretty bizarre. First it implies mutual distrust and rivalry between the homeric heroes for Diomedes doesn't take Odysseus in the temple, Odysseus asks him on the Palladium obviously with intention to steal it and Diomedes lying to him and of course the actual act. For starters Odysseus ready to kill Diomedes for the sakes of fame (while he literally saves his life in the Iliad) and not only that, be greedy and stupid enough to hold a sword to the moonlight. So it holds many contradictions to the entirety of Epic Cycle even Iliou Persis which also shows a more unpleasant side of Odysseus.

My guess is that the story is mostly linked to traditions of later years especially Roman sources and is not directly linked to the Epic Cycle. Even art of later years doesn't depict the Palladium Heist as a negative aura between the two heroes. If anything they seem to be cooperating just fine. And as I said this myth as told by Conon shows BOTH Diomedes and Odysseus as rivals and equally antagonizing and deceiving each other which doesn't usually appear to the Epic Cycle. Although of course we cannot be 100% sure given how the Epic Cycle is lost, it seems to me more like a roman legend that usually depict Greek heroes of Troy in general and Odysseus in particular, in the most negative light possible given how Odysseus is known for taking Troy, the mythical city of origin to the Romans (given how Aeneas who barely escapes with his life from Troy is the ancestor of the founders of Rome)

I hope this answers your question; to summarize it seems to me that this story of the Palladium Heist has as much connection to the Epic Cycle as Ovid has to Medusa legend; seems more like a version either created or told by Conon based on traditions of his time and the general anti-Odysseus climate.

[marie-the-psychic]

Untitled

TW // explicit violence, references to su!cide.

There's no faith in bliss and pain, Only a heart made of broken porcelain And shattered girls beyond repair, Repeating pointless prayers on their way to hell.

I won't let myself follow that fate, I'll flee from here, leave far away instead. Drain all the life and amputate, Make an incision and reach into my chest.

I'll die by the will of my rotting brains, Feeding from my guts and hung from my veins. I'm eager to wither, I can't wait, My thoughts are rushing, driving me insane.

I'll bite into my heart and rip it all apart, I'll empty my chest and plant belladonnas. This is what I need, what I'm meant to be, A dissected flower left in the abyss.

A wounded crow trapped and tied up to a cross, A life stomped and left to fade alone. I'm not dying just to turn into dust, I'm finishing all the work you failed to leave done.

And I'll sell my bones for those that come this way, I'll become the martyr of the forsaken and the maimed, The patron saint of faithless death, A tale of broken words with a horrid end.

It's not fair, I never wanted this to end this way, But I'd rather agonize quick under my own knife, Mourning the long lost dreams and star-eyed girl that breathed once, Rather than let you torture me until my eventual demise.

[bonjin-no-kamera]