#Iliou Persis

[katerinaaqu]

Forget anime! We have Diomedes rampage, Odysseus stabbing the guy through the heart FROM HIS BACK and Achilles piercing Penthesilea ALONG WITH HER HORSE with his spear! (And the dudes throwing rocks at each other)

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 21: The Library of Alexandria (Miscellaneous III)

I welcome your suggestions for both Library of Alexandria and other lost works of World Literature and History, as there will be future polls.

[littlesparklight]

There were ships around Tenedos like a swarm of flies on the discarded carcass of a sacrifical animal, the knife still buried in its throat, left to rot on the altar as the celebrating village was scattered by some unforeseen catastrophe and forced to leave even the gods' due unfinished.

[corvid-ghost]

Ok so I'm trying to collect every piece of the epic cycle/ things that have to so with the Trojan war/ the characters, and thos what I have so far

Aethiopis - Arctinus of Miletus

Achilleid - Statius

Aeneid - Virgil

Ajax - Sophocles

Alcmeonis - don't know

Andromache - Euripides

Bibliotheca - Pseudo-Apollodrus

Carmina Illiaca/AnteHomerica - John Tzetez

Cyclops - Euripides

Cypria - Stasinus

*De Raptu Hellene - Draconthius

Descriptions of Greece - Pausania

Ehoiai - Hesiod

Electra - Europides

Electra - Sophocles

Epigoni - Homer(?) Antimachus of Teos(?)

Fabulae - Hyginus

Fragment 14 - Sappho

Fragment 44 - Sappho

Harpage Hellenes - Colothus

Hecuba - Europides

Helen - Europides

Heroicus - Philostratus

Homerica - John Tzetez

Iliad - Homer

Iliou Persis - Arctinus of Miletus

Iphigenia - Euripides

Iphigenia Among the Tauri - Euripides

Iphigenia in Aulis - Europides

Little Iliad - Lesches of Lesbos

Metamorphoses - Ovid

Mythographus Homericus - we don't know

Nostoi - Agias of Troizen

Odyssey - Homer

Oedipodea - Cinaethon of Sparta

Oresteia (trilogy) - Aeschylus

Orestes - Euripidies

Orestes Tragodeia - Draconthius

Philoctetes - Sophocles

Post-Homerica - John Tzetez

PostHomerica - Quintus Smyrnaeus

Rawlinson Excidium Troie -

Telegony - Eugammon of Cyrene

Trojan Women - Euripides

Tryphodorus the Taking of Illios - Epyllion

Thebaid - Homer (?)

Thebiad - Stesichorus

Tzetez Theogeny -

Vatican mythographer one -

If any of this is incorrect lmk or if there's any other you know too

[thrassa]

While I fully agree with the overall point, I still personally think that we can't say for certain that his war prize(s) (plural, if we also include Hekabe) were used as concubines by him or if they were treated similarly to house servants or anything of the sort because we don't have sufficient information on the matter, just a passing mention.

War Prizes were, of course, either stolen by the men themselves (how Achilles took Briseis, after murdering her family) or given to them as gifts for their contribution to the war and of course we know that oftentimes they were used to satisfy their captors sexually but we do have instances were the war prize remained untouched for different reasons (Agamemnon and Briseis, Odysseus and Hekabe).

In any case, though, it makes very little difference if he did use his war prize as a concubine or not, because he was allowed and even somewhat expected to, given the society of the era (the Homeric Era, at least as we can't be too sure about fidelity in the Mycenaean times). It wouldn't matter. Maybe not even to Penelope.

Side note: I still would personally like to believe that he remained faithful to Penelope, given their connection and the way they reflect each other, so I'm going to keep telling myself that he stayed faithful - but that doesn't mean that another interpretation can't be valid. It's just dumb of people to oversimplify the morality of a cultural figure based on . . . Whether he followed his time's cultural practices or not.

So, yeah, I'm not making much sense right now, I guess, but at the end of the day, Odysseus was just as flawed and complex as all other figures depicted in the Epics. He was neither bad nor good, he had layers and I know thats hard for people to understand, given all the whitewashing they're used to when it comes to their "faves", but come on. It's 2023, and the poor ancient people that did things you consider fucked up (due to your own time and society) are one with the earth right now, let them rest ffs.

I keep on reading and reading so many people so far saying "Odysseus didn't have a concubine in the Iliad uwu he is good" and I'm like.... people, please, PLEASE, read the Iliad. Read it, it's a precious book, and you will love it.

Summary: Agamemnon threatens to take the concubine of Ayax, Odysseus, Achilles, or whoever he chooses.

[lunamay3]

Since the watch party for the Thunder Saga is tomorrow, I’m going to put out there my last minute predictions for the Thunder Saga and the rest of Epic: the Musical.

So if you don’t want any spoilers for the Thunder Saga, don’t read on.

So, I still stand by my initial theory that the first two songs of act 2 are going to set up some theme that is going to be continued throughout the rest of the act, only to be resolved during the last song. Mostly because this is exactly what happened in act 1.

So, The Horse and The Infant and Just a Man do not draw their plot from The Odyssey. Sure the Trojan Horse is retold in the Odyssey, but, perhaps more importantly for Epic, the infant, Prince Astyanax, is not mentioned anywhere in The Odyssey. As far as I can tell the only pieces of Ancient Greek literature that mention Astyanax being murdered by Odysseus (or on his orders) are The Trojan Women and Iliou Persis.

Furthermore, The Horse and The Infant and Just a Man set up the theme in act 1 of “When does a man become a monster?”, a question that is resolved in the act 1 closer Monster.

We know that the first two songs of Act 2, Suffering and Different Beast also do not draw from The Odyssey, which seems to parallel with The Horse and The Infant and Just a Man.

We also know that Suffering and Different Beast probably are duets between Odysseus and Penelope due to the fact that Jorge and Anna Lea are listed as singers on the songs. And Jorge has told us that song 40, the last song of act 2, is going to be a duet between Odysseus and Penelope. This, to me, also seems to parallel the set up between the first two songs of act 1 and the act 1 closer.

In short, I think Suffering and Different Beast are going to play the same structural role in Act 2 that The Horse and The Infant and Just a Man played in Act 1. But I guess I can’t completely prove that until The Ithaca Saga comes out.

[katerinaaqu]

Son of Achilles Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus)

I know I should be sleeping but I am sitting at my computer, I am listening to classical music and drew Achilles so I couldn't help it! Here's our dear red-haired psycho Neoptolemus!

Honestly I think this kid is the OG that started the whole streak of superstitions on how gingers have no soul! XD

Anyways decided to try a bit more realistic analogies for this one so I decided to trace the shape of the smirk from "Bates Motel" because that face had the childish softness that I needed for this. Of course ginger hair seems to be very much a must at this point given his name as well "Pyrrhus" (of the fire, fiery) and since he has creamy skin and reddish hair couldn't help to add some random details such as freckles. Hair being wavy like Achilles probably he took something from Diadeima too. The turquise eyes were an inspiration from sketches such as the art by @smokey07 but also a combo of his father's blue eyes. His clothing was again inspired by mycenaean clothes and I chose the same color palette as his eyees (blue and turquise) because I am a coward and cannot draw armors! Maybe I will in the future.

My other work on Homeric Characters:

Diomedes

Odysseus

Calypso

Patroclus

Antilochus

Achilles

[littlesparklight]

A (not exhaustive) inventory of Astyanax's death and survival.

In the Little Iliad, Neoptolemos is the killer. In the Iliou Persis, Odysseus is the killer.

In the Trojan Women we don't actually know who does the deed, "merely" that Odysseus is singled out as the (major) voice who argued for his death. As Andrew Erskine in Troy Between Greece and Rome points out (referencing another academic as well), given the lack of detail in what's left to us, Odysseus might well have been involved in Astyanax's death in the Little Iliad as well, in the same role he has in here in the Trojan Women.

Seneca (Troades) follows Euripides in the public deliberation and has Odysseus being present for Astyanax's death, but he has Astyanax leap voluntarily. (Excuse me, WTF.)

Quintus of Smyrna, in his Posthomerica, has the killing be done by "the Greeks". Not just the deliberation like in the Trojan Women, but "they" seized him and tossed him from the wall. Whether intended or not, it makes it read a little like a mob scene. (edited to add this, because I'd forgotten to check.)

Tryphiodoros, in the Taking of Ilios, has it again be Odysseus.

So what we get is that even when Odysseus isn't actively the hand that commits the deed, he's the (first? major? leading?) voice in claiming it "needs" to be done. For the ~safety of Greece~, of course.

So, now we come to myths and stories of Astyanax's survival. It's mostly here the "not exhaustive" disclaimer applies. For a lot of the Medieval sources (where this idea flourishes) I can't double check if they say anything about who/how Astyanax survives.

With that said; the Medieval manuscripts aren't the earliest ideas of Astyanax's survival!

One is late Classical or earlier; Dionysios of Halikarnassos reports of the Ilians (that is, the Anatolian Greeks of the "modern" Ilion/Troy, built somewhere after ~1000 BC) had a founding legend that involved Astyanax and Askanios. Given that Astyanax can approach his cousin after being released by Neoptolemos, presumably Neoptolemos didn't kill Astyanax but rather take him along into slavery with his mother and Helenos.

I'll just include this screencap from Troy Between Greece and Rome for the next bit since it's easier:

On to the Medieval sources; the absolute earliest appearances of Astyanax here is as the founder of the Franks, now named Francion/Francus. French Wikipedia has a note to an author that says that Astyanax's survival was effected by (unnamed in the text and note) Medieval authors by the Greeks softening up and ending up not killing Asyanax because of his beauty.

Next is the "Andromache swaps Astyanax for another child and the Greeks (more like Odysseus) is tricked and kills the substitute". It has several appearances/uses, but the earliest (at least by the list in Wikipedia) seems to be Boiardo's Orlando Innamorato (1495).

While being unable to, like, check if anyone is named as the rescuer in some of these (Wiki also has an unsourced mention of Talthybios), in general we seem to land on either Neoptolemos or, in later stories, Andromache herself. I wouldn't think Neoptolemos ends up not killing Astyanax out of the goodness of his heart, more as a way to control Andromache, but there it is either way. Odysseus is only ever an obstacle to be worked around, which isn't odd given how often he is either the killer, or, maybe far more important, the voice to argue that Astyanax need to die. Not so odd he'd then be construed in later stories as the character to be specifically tricked by the child-swap.

I'll put the sources under the cut!

(For the Little Iliad) Scholiast on Lycophr. Alex., 1268: "Then the bright son of bold Achilles led the wife of Hector to the hollow ships; but her son he snatched from the bosom of his rich-haired nurse and seized him by the foot and cast him from a tower. So when he had fallen bloody death and hard fate seized on Astyanax. And Neoptolemus chose out Andromache, Hector's well-girded wife, and the chiefs of all the Achaeans gave her to him to hold requiting him with a welcome prize. And he put Aeneas, the famous son of horse-taming Anchises, on board his sea-faring ships, a prize surpassing those of all the Danaans."

(For the Sack of Ilion/Ilioupersis) The Greeks, after burning the city, sacrifice Polyxena at the tomb of Achilles: Odysseus murders Astyanax; Neoptolemus takes Andromache as his prize, and the remaining spoils are divided.

(Note 136 to Apllodorus' Library, trans. Frazer) Compare Arctinus, Ilii Persis, summarized by Proclus, in Epicorum Graecorum Fragmenta, ed. G. Kinkel, p. 50; Eur. Tro. 719-739, Eur. Tro. 1133-1135; Eur. And. 8-11; Paus. 10.26.9; Quintus Smyrnaeus, Posthomerica xiii.251-257; Tryphiodorus, Excidium Ilii 644-646; Tzetzes, Scholiast on Lycophron 1263; Scholiast on Eur. Andr. 10; Ov. Met. 13.415-417; Hyginus, Fab. 109; Seneca, Troades 524ff., 1063ff. While ancient writers generally agree that Astyanax was killed by being thrown from a tower at or after the sack of Troy, they differ as to the agent of his death. Arctinus, as reported by Proclus, says merely that he was killed by Ulysses. Tryphiodorus reports that he was hurled by Ulysses from a high tower. On the other hand, Lesches in the Little Iliad said that it was Neoptolemus who snatched Astyanax from his mother's lap and cast him down from the battlements (Tzetzes and Paus. 10.26.9). According to Euripides and Seneca, the murder of the child was not perpetrated in hot blood during the sack of Troy but was deliberately executed after the capture of the city in pursuance of a decree passed by the Greeks in a regular assembly. This seems to have been the version followed by Apollodorus, who apparently regarded the death of Astyanax as a sacrifice, like the slaughter of Polyxena on the grave of Achilles. But the killing of Astyanax was not thus viewed by our other ancient authorities, unless we except Seneca, who describes how Astyanax leaped voluntarily from the wall while Ulysses was reciting the words of the soothsayer Calchas and invoking the cruel gods to attend the rite.

(Trojan Women, Euripides) Talthybius You that once were the wife of Hector, bravest of the Phrygians, [710] do not hate me, for I am not a willing messenger. The Danaids and sons of Pelops both command—

Andromache What is it? your prelude bodes evil news.

[…]

Talthybius They mean to slay your son; there is my hateful message to you.

Andromache [720] Oh me! this is worse tidings than my forced marriage.

Talthybius So spoke Odysseus to the assembled Hellenes, and his word prevails.

Andromache Oh, once again alas! there is no measure in the woes I bear.

Talthybius He said they should not rear so brave a father's son.

(Dionysios of Halikarnassos; Ant. Rom. 1. 47. 5–6) Aineias . . . sent Askanios, the eldest of his sons, with some of the allies, mainly Phrygians, to the land called Daskylitis, where the Askanian lake is, since his son had been invited by the inhabitants to rule over them. Askanios did not dwell there for long. When Skamandrios and the other descendants of Hektor approached him after Neoptolemos had released them from Greece, he went to Troy and restored them to their ancestral kingdom.

[katerinaaqu]

You know...I wonder if Odysseus was pretty much numb at that point. If one thinks about it he was already forced or not to lead Iphigenia to the altar to be sacrificed. He had already been through and also directly or indirectly committed many atrocities to the name of war including many killings the invention of Trojan Horse and the taking of Troy.

Now he is once again said that HE has to take Polyxena from the hands or Hecuba who was also won in the lottery as his personal slave.

Maybe I am way too biased with Homer's version of Odysseus who is much less of the monster depicted in post-homeric sources such as the Aenaeaid and even Eurypedes works but imagine being Odysseus, being directly or indirectly responsible for both the beginning and the ending of the war; Odysseus who put the life of his son above anything else now he found himself not once but TWICE before the decision of the horrifying fate of human sacrifice (and we know even in his world that was horrifying because Athena was still furious when Polyxena was sacrificed). Odysseus who later sells himself to a goddess to assure his men will be safe (thus showing his mentality that his men come first like his family comes first)

This Odysseus for ten years after the horrible act of the sacrifice or Iphigenia he was always personally involving himself to the dirtiest of businesses in the war from spy missions to night raids in the city to captures of princes and abstraction of information (and I am sure he didn't persuade Helenus to betray his city just with treats and wine) stealing plundering and so on and so forth and who was personally present into the taking of Troy (and if you follow Iliou Persis then he personally killed Astyanax otherwise we follow Little Iliad where Neoptolemus does it but Odysseus feels the act in his flesh no doubt) and now AGAIN he has to take Polyxena to her doom.

Odysseus is not a man who believes in miracles even if he is accompanied by a goddess. I doubt he would expect the same thing that happened to iphigenia would happen to Polyxena. But from how I read his personality in Homer then Odysseus must have been exhausted. He struggled to go home and he was ready to pay ANY price for it even taking the city by Trickery and committing a war crime for it but now the true magnitude of that came to light and that probably destroyed him. He cannot resist that anymore. He is numb. Perhaps he is still under the fever of battle perhaps he is also like "oh well one more sin and then I can go home"

I mean...knowing his reaction in Phaeakes Island where he literally sobs his eyes out in his veil once Troy and her sad story is brought to the picture one knows how deeply the events affected him ultimately. No doubt that he didn't resist the sacrifice. Odysseus was always the one to get his hands dirty so others didn't have to. At that point he had sunk his hands so deeply in that dirt that it didn't matter anymore...

I actually think of it that way when this myth is brought up mainly because as I said before I like to analyze taking Homer as a starting point.

Thinking about Agamemnon sacrificing his teenage daughter in order to go to war. Thinking about Odysseus trying to avoid going to war but when the choice was to kill his infant son or to go to war he chose the war. Thinking about how upon the death of Achilles, Odysseus recruited Achilles's teenage son Neoptolemus to join the war. About Odysseus or sometimes it's Neoptolemus throwing Hector's infant son off the battlements to his death. About Achilles's ghost demanding the sacrifice of Hecuba's daughter Polyxena before the Greeks can sail home from Troy and when Hecuba begged Odysseus to spare Polyxena he said no, I want to go home, we're going to kill her. Thinking about how the only one of the Greek generals opposing Polyxena's sacrifice was Agamemnon. How Odysseus never wanted to be here but he will inflict the pain he wanted to avoid on others out of his duty to the other Greek soldiers. How Agamemnon, leader of the Greek soldiers, is so, so tired of sacrificing children to this war. How it happens anyway.

[scriptmyth]

Hi! I was wondering if you guys knew any myths about twins or mythical twins in general? Thank you!

Hello Nonny!

Twins are widely represented in mythology and appear quite frequently in different cultures and myths. They are tightly connected to the ideas of duality and divinity, their births often being attributed to some kind of supernatural force or divine intervention.

It is not a surprising development, considering that birth of twins is not a normal occurrence for humans. Interestingly, on the flip side of supernatural, since most animals give birth to more than one offspring at a time, sometimes human twin births were considered as an evidence of an act of bestiality. The Dioscuri, who hatched from eggs, can be one classic example of such beliefs, even though their birth is more due to divine interference.

In some cultures the birth of twins was attributed to women eating certain fruits or other produce. According to James Frazer’s The Golden Bough, the Galelareese of New Guinea believed a woman who consumed two bananas growing from a single head might find herself pregnant with twins; the Guarani of South America similarly believed eating a double grain of millet would do the same. Similar beliefs concerning various fruits also exist in different cultures throughout the world.

Twins are often multiplied into further pairs. Claude Levi-Strauss explains it as a structural element of the myth — each new pair of twins emphasizing the general structure of the plot.

Twins can serve different functions in a story. They are always regarded as supernatural in some way, appearing in creation myths as two sometimes opposing, but still tightly tied together, forces. They also frequently appear in etiological myths — myths that explain the origin of an ethnic group or a city (Jacob and Esau, Romulus and Remus). God-twins often represent natural objects and phenomena that are put in dual opposition — such as Apollo representing the sun and Artemis the moon. Whether they were prescribed this opposition from the start, or it grew out of their existing connection as twins, is not always so clear.

In the course of our research, we found the “Why the Healing Gods are Twins” article very helpful when it came to general information, but the treatment of specific cultures looked sketchy to us. You can still give it a go.

Wikipedia has an incomplete list of some more renowned mythological twins, grouped by cultural provenance, which is a great starting point. We are working now on a Mythological Twins Master Post, but, in the meantime, the twins listed below are the ones the Chorus and the Muses know of. If you have any questions about any of them please feel free to send in another ask with the specific twin set you would like to know more about!

(List under the Read More line)

Verified Twins:

Native American

Ioskeha and Tawiscara 

Naayéé’ Neizghání and Tóbájíshchíní

Flint and Sapling

Ioskeha and Tawescaron

Central America

One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu

One Monkey and One Artisan

Hunahpu and Xbalanque

One Death and Seven Death

Africa

Da Zodji and Nyohwe Ananu

Agbe and Naete

Marassa Jumeaux

Egypt and Mesopotamia

Inanna  and Utu 

Isis and Nephthys

India

Ashvins

Greek and Roman

Castor and Pollux (Polydeuces)

Lynceus and Idas

Artemis and Apollo

Romulus and Remus

Bible

Jacob and Esau

Pharez and Zarah

Norse

Freyr and Freyja

Dubious Twins:

Africa

Nommo

This is technically a twin set but out sources on it are weak.

Egypt

Osiris and Khonsu

The twin association between these two is a mystical one and not a physical one.

Greek

Heracles and Iphicles

Only source of them being brothers is in the Bibliotheca Apollodorus [2.7.3]: “That being so, Cepheus and his sons took the field, and in the battle he and his sons perished, and besides them Iphicles, the brother of Hercules.”

Eteocles and Polyneices 

Brothers who co-ruled Thebes

Asclepius and Ericthonius

Asclepius was the son of Apollo and the mortal woman Koronis from Thessaly (x)

Ericthonius was a autochthonic god borne of Hephaestus’ semen on a woolen rag, which had been discarded by Athena as she had wiped the semen off (x)

Athena had dispensed Gorgon-blood to both Asclepius and Ericthonius (x)

Machaon and Podalirius

Sons of Asclepius

“Podaleirius and Machaon are the leeches of the Grecian army, highly prized and consulted by all the wounded chiefs. Their medical renown was further prolonged in the subsequent poem of Arktinus, the Iliou Persis, wherein the one was represented as unrivalled in surgical operations, the other as sagacious in detecting and appreciating morbid symptoms. It was Podaleirius who first noticed the glaring eyes and disturbed deportment which preceded the suicide of Ajax.” - The Iliad, hosted on Project Gutenberg, footnote 132 on page 192 (x)

Aloadae: Otus and Ephialtes 

Described as brothers, borne of Iphimedeia of Thessaly and Poseidon

There’s no mention of separate births, and only one conception by Poseidon

They’re frequently referred to by the single name “Aloadae” in reference to their mother’s husband, Aloeus

Aeolus and Boeotus 

Mother was the nymph Melanippe, father Poseidon

Theano’s twins 

Attested to be either Aeolus and Boeotus, or her own sons by her husband, but unknown if they were actual twins (x). As these references were written by Hyginus, it’s advised to take them with a grain of salt

Proteus and Acrisius 

They’re claimed to be twins, but the only sources available can prove them only as brothers (x x x)

Biblical

James and John

Jesus and Judas Thomas (in one apocryphon – The Gospel According to Thomas)

[kashuan]

If you could save just one (1) of the lost epics of the Trojan Cycle (Cypria, Iliou Persis etc) which one would it be?

Just one……JUST ONE? What cruel person asked this :(((((((((((((Honestly my first inclination is to say Cypria just because I am super interested to know how the first 9 years play out, and it would mean more content of all the characters, but more importantly it would mean more content of Atreides, my BOYS. Because the Iliad starts where it does, the Agamemnon vs Achilles plot has probably become The most commonly known thing about it and tends to primarily be that which everyone characterizes them around, so I would love some additional scenes that would open up looking at the characters in other ways…  Nostoi, the one set just after the end of the war, is also super tempting in this respect because it supposedly includes a lot of Agamemnon specific content including a version Oresteia, and I’m bias. Plus if there’s details on Menelaus’ own version of the Odyssey where he detoured in Egypt and stuff, and more importantly, has more Helen content, that makes it a really close contender…Actually, though, Telegony is probably the one I’ve actually spoken the most with friends about wanting to read? Because I also adore Telemachus and would love to read this Odyssey sequel, if just to see how they pulled off the “we were renewed for an 8th season and we’re running out of plot ideas” plot of Telemachus marrying Circe of all people, lmao.

[katerinaaqu]

@dilutedh2so4 Yup! Although this is not memorized in any part of the epic cycle and most scholiasts of it have a variety of opinions there doesn't seem to be any written source that confirms either that Neoptolemous kills the baby and then uses the corpse as a club or if he kills them both simoultaneously with this blow thus using the living baby as a club.

However vase-painting has a plethora of images such as this which puzzled many people. I have heard the theory that this is simply a lost version of the epic cycle that happened to be known in antiquity but not surviving to us nowadays (just like a large number of texts from the Epic Cycle is lost such as the Nostoi apart from the Odyssey)

The way I see it is quite possible or that it is a symbolic scene that Neoptolemous is responsible for both deaths at the same time (as opposing to Iliou Persis where we name Odysseus as the killer of the baby). Most versions of the epic cycle seem to agree for example Little Ilias naming Neoptolemous as the actual killer (while Eurypedes places Odysseus as the mastermind behind the plotting of the murder) while writers like Seneca take a theory that Astyanax was older of age and throws himself off the walls voluntarily or others that speak of Astyanax suriving the ordeal (the baby thrown off the walls belonging to someone else) and start another streak of myths where he is a mythological ancestor of cities for example in Corsica and Sardinia but I think those are much later myths

Either way this version seems very brutal to imagine if the image is indeed literal and this is how both Astyanax and Priam find their end and not some symbolic scene to point Neoptolemous as the killer of them both And if this myth is actually valid and literal then makes me wonder how people like Sophocles when creating their tragedies name Neoptolemous as a righteous and pure individual. In "Philoctetes" he is even naive, winded up like a tin soldier by Odysseus till he finds out the depth of sorrow Philictetes was suffering.

I wonder if that was Sophocles's interpretation of young Pyrrhus then I wonder indeed what kind of pressure was the kid under or what kind of actrcities he had to perform before the sacking of Troy in order to turn from a kind, righteous and kinda naive young man to a bloodthirsty killer who performed some of the most atrocious crimes in the battle such as killing an individual that seeks sanctuary or snatch a baby from her mother's arms and throw him off the walls or worse...perform THIS act!

That was really the question that I wanted to touch while writing my random little fics

Guilt: Part 1 , Part 2 , Part 3

and Philoctetes Inspiration 2

and barely scratched the surface. Makes me wonder how an epic poem featuring Neoptolemous would be like.

Priam killed by Neoptolemus

Greek, ca. 520 BC–510 B.C.

[katerinaaqu]

Heyo!

I don't know how exactly to phrase this but I was wondering if you know anything about Odysseus trying/planing to kill Diomedes while they were stealing the Palladium. I have heard some people say that Odysseus did try to kill Diomedes while doing so but Diomedes noticed him so Odysseus stopped.

This feels so strange to me as Odysseus and Diomedes aren’t antagonistic in the Illiad and Diomedes is loved by Athena like Odysseus so betraying him, especially for hubris, seems like a good way to end up on Athena's bad side.

Also the translated summaries of Little Illiad I know don't mention it either but I know those translations can be missing out context. I suspect the Odysseus Betrayal is a "later adition" to the Epic Cycle but I am not that confident on that opinion.

Yes absolutely and I understand completely what you say. That is because the Palladium Heist betrayal story was peobably not part of the original epic cycle but rather a later adittion. More specifically through the work called Bibliotheca by Photius I, the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinopole in 9th century seems to be mentioning in his work a Roman mythographer named Conon.

Conon lived and created during the times of Augustus. It seems that he is one of the oldest if not the oldest mythographer to ever mention this story. So the story quoted by Photius goes as such;

Basically after the revelation of Helen's Diomedes and Odysseus enter the city. Odysseus helps Diomedes on his shoulders so that he could climb but when he reaches out his hand Diomedes doesn't take him in and goes for the Palladium himself. When he comes back apparently Odysseus asks him on it and, according to Photius who quotes Conon, Diomedes "knows his cunning" and says that he didn't find it. That a spirit stole it and that he has another one. Odysseus realizes he is lying so he eventually draws his sword to kill Diomedes and take the Palladium to the Greeks himself. Apparently as he goes to stab Diomedes in the back, his sword casts a shadow by the moonlight or the glint of the weapon, Diomedes sees it and deflects him. He draws his own sword and threatens Odysseus with it wishing to "punish him for his cowardice" but eventually he decides otherwise (arguably knowing that the war needs him) and thus he drives him back to the camp while hitting him on his back with the flat of his sword. And according to Photius this is what gave the famous phrase to Greek language διομήδεια ανάγκη (Diomedes Need) which basically means "do something unpleasant out of necessity for the greater good"

So as you see the story does seem pretty bizarre. First it implies mutual distrust and rivalry between the homeric heroes for Diomedes doesn't take Odysseus in the temple, Odysseus asks him on the Palladium obviously with intention to steal it and Diomedes lying to him and of course the actual act. For starters Odysseus ready to kill Diomedes for the sakes of fame (while he literally saves his life in the Iliad) and not only that, be greedy and stupid enough to hold a sword to the moonlight. So it holds many contradictions to the entirety of Epic Cycle even Iliou Persis which also shows a more unpleasant side of Odysseus.

My guess is that the story is mostly linked to traditions of later years especially Roman sources and is not directly linked to the Epic Cycle. Even art of later years doesn't depict the Palladium Heist as a negative aura between the two heroes. If anything they seem to be cooperating just fine. And as I said this myth as told by Conon shows BOTH Diomedes and Odysseus as rivals and equally antagonizing and deceiving each other which doesn't usually appear to the Epic Cycle. Although of course we cannot be 100% sure given how the Epic Cycle is lost, it seems to me more like a roman legend that usually depict Greek heroes of Troy in general and Odysseus in particular, in the most negative light possible given how Odysseus is known for taking Troy, the mythical city of origin to the Romans (given how Aeneas who barely escapes with his life from Troy is the ancestor of the founders of Rome)

I hope this answers your question; to summarize it seems to me that this story of the Palladium Heist has as much connection to the Epic Cycle as Ovid has to Medusa legend; seems more like a version either created or told by Conon based on traditions of his time and the general anti-Odysseus climate.

[littlesparklight]

do we know how Helen reacted to Paris’ death? and how did her reunion with Menelaus go?

Very few of the sources we know that might have touched on it (like the Little Iliad) have survived intact. (Or survived at all, in cases of other treatments of the war that we know about, or don't know about.) We only have a couple late sources, as far as I am aware, that say anything - but whether they're representative in any way, we don't know.

Paris' death Dares: "Helen took part in the funeral with loud lamentations. Alexander, she said, had treated her kindly; [...]" and "Helen, returning home with Menelaus, her husband, was grieved more deeply than when she had come."

Dictys makes no specific mention of how Helen reacted to Paris' death.

Quintus of Smyrna and his Posthomerica: "[...] but long and loud lamented Helen; yet those wails were but for Trojan ears; her soul with other thoughts was busy, as she cried[...] (skipping the actual speech here) So cried she: but for him far less she mourned than for herself, remembering her own sin."

So I guess that depends on if you'd say this means no honest grieving at all, or some. Or if Quintus means there to be some, in truth, or none; he also specifies that no one but Oinone grieves Paris in earnest, despite that, compared to the qualifiers he gives Helen's lamenting, Hecuba gets no such and she seems to be in earnest if it weren't for that comment. (Quintus is also, like often happens later, writing very moralising. Obviously Paris is then not going to get much from him.)

The reclamation of Helen The most usual, and perhaps until late only version of Helen and Menelaos' reunion, involves Menelaos threatening her life (and Aphrodite interfering). Ibycus and the Little Iliad both seem to have had this, and it's possible (neither the summary nor the surviving fragments say anything about this) Iliou Persis had it as well. Some want to claim a lack of attempted violence on Menelaos' part in the Sack's version, but we have no proof of that either.

Vase art has a couple variants, which generally are on a line of Helen either fleeing from Menelaos/Menelaos dropping his sword, or already leading Helen away, sword in hand. Generally this is pointed at her (an obvious threat) or merely held, but as I understand it from the academics I've read, in this case the sword is still an implicit threat towards Helen, and not, and some may want to claim "meant to secure their safe leave from Troy". Aeneas, for example, as he leads his family away, is never shown wielding a sword (no matter which way it might be pointed), despite that he, surely more than Menelaos, would need one.

(Guy Hedreen is a good jumping off point if you want to read more.)

As for what our late surviving sources say, Dares makes no mention of their immediate meeting during the sack. The only reference is the same one I quoted up above under the death of Paris.

Dictys: "First of all, Helen was freely given to Menelaus;" and "When Troy had been taken, Ajax had been the first to propose that she should be killed because of the troubles and sufferings she had caused for so long a time. Many good men had assented. But Menelaus, still loving his wife, had gone the rounds, and plead for her life, and finally, through the intercession of Ulysses, had won her back unharmed."

So the situation seems similar to Euripides' Trojan Women, in that Helen was treated as a captive to be handed over, but, here we have seeming break from the version of Menelaos attempting to murder Helen. Dictys says nothing about how Menelaos reacted to Helen when he found her during the sack, merely that he tortured Deiphobos to death. And despite the apparent situation of Helen being treated as a captive, compared to TW Menelaos acts to keep Helen safe - but, as we see, a threat to Helen's life post-sack, if not from Menelaos then all the Achaeans, clearly remains a feature.

Quintus of Smyrna: "Menelaus mid the inner chambers found at last his wife, there cowering from the wrath of her bold-hearted lord. He glared on her, hungering to slay her in his jealous rage. But winsome Aphrodite curbed him, struck out of his hand the sword, his onrush reined, jealousy's dark cloud swept she away, and stirred love's deep sweet well-springs in his heart and eyes."

There's more after this, Menelaos pretending to continue the attack after Aphrodite has turned his heart and Agamemnon stopping him. Then later as Menelaos leads her out, though Helen fears being attacked by the Achaeans, Aphrodite intervenes again, making sure they're all struck, basically as Menelaos already was.

So in Quintus the threat to Helen is really emphasised. There's not just the intended intimate revenge from Menelaos, but also a potential general one from the Achaean forces as a whole.

What we basically have, then, is that Helen's survival isn't a given. Aphrodite will ensure she survives, of course. But from the mortal end of things in most sources, from threats during the sack (by Menelaos) to post-sack threats from either Menelaos (Trojan Women) or the Achaeans as a whole, Helen's survival isn't seen as a necessary condition for the victory. In fact, in some ways, Helen paying for her life (for the apparent, in the case of kidnapping, or actual, where she was willing, adultery) seem to be intimately bound together with the Achaeans' victory.

Only divine intervention (via Aphrodite giving Helen sanctuary and inspiring Menelaos' former love) in most sources, until we get to Dictys' and Dares' realistic and godless versions, saves Helen.

[katerinaaqu]

In one essence the Palladium was actually predicted so it was possible that Athena wasn't mad about it given how she technically assists Odysseus and Diomedes since they did manage to get out of the city

It seems according to texts like Iliou Persis that Athena was mad at the sacrifice of Polyxena. Achilles wishes to have a concubine after death so the Greeks are instructed to sacrifice Polyxena according to the wishes of Achilles. Once more it seems the most vocal against it was ironically Agamemnon who did take that decision before knowing the consequences.

When Polyxena is saceificed Athena gets furious and sends this fight between the Greeks and then the fleets are separated from each other as well.

I absolutely agree that the fight between Menelaus and Agamemnon was already patched up at that point and Menelaus was literally devastated to hear his brother died and in such fashion

Why did Agamemnon and Menelaus part on bad terms from Troy?

athena made them fight! she and zeus are angry at the greeks for how they handled the whole troy thing and i think athena has particular beef about the palladium? and the cassandra/ajax incident, so they just want to make the homecoming for all the greeks unpleasant.

so she makes menelaus and agamemnon fight (which divides the greek army). they fight because menelaus just wants to leave and go home but agamemnon says that they should wait and try and appease athena, with sacrifice and offerings because she's clearly pissed at them. but menelaus doesn't wait. and he goes with nestor, diomedes and odysseus (but odysseus goes back to agamemnon after a stop at lesbos). whilst agamemnon stays behind.

nestor tells it in book 3 of the odyssey:

“Gray-eyed Athena, daughter of the Thunder, became enraged and brought about disaster. She set the sons of Atreus to fight each other. Hastily, they called the people at sunset, not observing proper norms. The men arrived already drunk on wine; the brothers told them why they called the meeting.                Then Menelaus said that it was time to sail back home across the open sea. But Agamemnon disagreed entirely. He wanted them to stay and sacrifice to heal the sickness of Athena’s wrath— pointless! He did not know she would not yield. The minds of the immortals rarely change. So those two stood and argued angrily, and with a dreadful clash of arms the Greeks leapt up on two opposing sides. We slept                that eerie night with hearts intent on hatred against each other—since Zeus meant us harm. At dawn one group of us dragged down our ships into the sea piled high with loot and women, while half the army still remained there, stationed with Agamemnon, shepherd of the people.”

and a fragment from Nostoi of the epic cyle also gives details about it. proclus' chrestomathia ii talks about it!

so it wasn't like bad terms in that they grew to hate each other or anything. it was just a disagreement that, had agamemnon lived longer, they probably would have resolved or even forgotten about. but. like. agamemnon doesn't live long after coming back from troy. menelaus never sees him again. the last time they speak to each other is a fight. is them divided and one of them leaving the other behind. and considering throughout the homeric works menelaus and agamemnon are such a Unit. they're a team. they're seen together a lot in the iliad. it's just really sad.

and i think menelaus' reaction to agamemnon's death makes it even sadder because OF COURSE he will be sad over his brother dying, but you can't help but think does he feels guilt that they left on such bad terms? that he won't get the chance to rectify it. their last memory of each other is a huge fight. and that's so sad. because that's not who they were or what their dynamic was shown to be for 99% of the time.

[jarulortega]

Nerón y el gran incendio de Roma... ⁣ ⁣ Aclaración:. No estoy comparando a Danilo con Nerón, danilo es un bebé de teta al lado del mítico Nerón, sin embargo, la soberbia de nuestro presidente si. Ahí ya son otros 500. ⁣ ⁣ A Nerón se le atribuye entre tantas cosas, el gran incendio de Roma en el año 64 -No el 1964, el año 64, así pelao- incendio que surgió entre el 18 o 19 de Julio y que supuestamente duraría 7 días, consumiendo una cuarta parte de la ciudad, 1.700 domus privadas y 47.000 insulae (bloques de apartamentos). Nerón culpó a los cristianos y muchos de ellos fueron ajusticiados por el hecho. Se cree  gracias a los historiadores como Suetonio y Dión Casio que mientras Roma ardía, Nerón cantó, vestido para la ocasión, el Iliou persis (el Saqueo de Troya). Tambien se cree, que Nerón provocó el incendio de Roma, ya que poco después del incendio, se construyó la Casa de Oro y el Coloso de Nerón, dos monumentos a su megalomanía. ⁣¿y adivinen cómo? ¡aumentando los impuestos! ⁣ Está claro que es impensable comparar a Danilo con el mismísimo Nerón, sin embargo, la soberbia de nuestro presidente, su "aparente sordera" a los reclamos de la población y su constante ignorancia a nuestra realidad, le hacen parecer cual Nerón, viendo a Roma arder y cantando y bailando para si... Solo falta descubrir, que Nerón provocó el gran incendio de Roma para permanecer en el poder... Esperen, ¿no fue así? ⁣ Ni Danilo, ni el PLD son responsables del Coronavirus. Pero si, serán responsables de todo lo que suceda después. Pues -y no nos hagamos los locos- sus medidas afectarán a todo el país, quierase o no y a la larga, el no tomar acciones y medidas fuertes, el no ayudar a la población, la cual hoy más que nunca lo necesita, nos condenarán a una crisis aún mayor de la que esperamos. ⁣ ⁣ Diosnilo de pol' dio. Te rogamos, oyenos. Aaaaaaaaaaameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen. #pesoentero #yosoyjarul (en Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic) https://www.instagram.com/p/B_U7gujD9w8/?igshid=1rb4wwhwjsea0