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randomnameless · 3 years ago

Text

Back to this post, because real life made me unable to reply in 5 days

While the controversy in itself was completely made up - as in the use of “literal” didn’t mean wonky google translate translation but a text that was closer to the characterisation from an old opus as opposed to the one from a more recent one - it tackled the usual, as I’d say it, the dub vs sub debate.

To put in perspective, I watched a dubbed episode of Dai’s Quest yesterday (the 2020 edition), and in the credits of the French Dub, we have some random french guy (or belgian guy?) credited as “author”.

Not, “author of the dubbed script” or as “translator” or “script written for the translated version”, nope, just “author”.

To me, this person is not the author of this episode, of the manga or even of the anime.

So why was this guy credited as “author”??

Once upon a time, when yellow subtitles were a thing made by fans to understand their anime (or even in some mangas with fanslation teams!) people were closer to a more litteral translation.

So of course we had the memetic “keikaku means plan” in translator notes, included in the subtitles, and it was a chore to read - but it was generally agreed that those yellow things were just here to help you understand what was being said, in the “closest in spirit” form to the original source material.

If you wanted something that was less clunky, the dub was here - but with the dub came the “liberties” associated with said dub.

By the “yellow subtitles” era, 4Kids was already dead, or shat upon universally (at least in France).

But there used to be an era where, someone thought it would be acceptable, or even adequate, to “dub” riceball as “donut” and even if the image wasn’t changed, Brook was still handling a triangle shaped donut with visible rice and nori - this thing existed. Why?

Was it because “riceballs” wasn’t acceptable to a “western” audience, or they wouldn’t understand it? Thus they brought the “donut” instead, because it would talk to the audience (TFW they didn’t “localise” it as croissant in the french dub) ?

We all (I) had our weeb phase, where we tried to say “Nii-san” and understood the difference between “-san” and “-sama”, even if some translation could translate it as “mister”. But the yellow subtitles kept those differences, and sometimes even wrote it as “san” and “sama”, so for people who only watched them, they understood that there is a polite form of adress in “-sama” that doesn’t really exist in english, even if one should try to “convey” this polite form of adress in the lines or words spoken.

Like, if a certain someone watched a lot of “yellow subbed” stuff, he wouldn’t have made up 10k words about toxic masculinity by misunderstanding the pronoun “ore”.

Yellow subtitles were made by people who loved the anime they were subbing, they were made by fans.

And those fans tried to be as close as possible to the source material, because they loved the source material and would not even want to add their own “interpretation” in their wonky subtitles, because wonky or not wonky, they loved the source material, not their own take on said source material (even if the line became blurred, like, say, fanon!Edel).

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Now, in a game, I understand how people don’t want to play the “keikaku means plan” subbed version, because those things are good to be called “fanslations”, but in a professional work? This just can’t work.

And this is where we have a problem.

Everyone said it in the notes under the OG post, but translation is a difficult job, and it isn’t just about “translating word to word” something, it has to make sure the “translated version” keeps the same meaning, or conveys the same thing. Take the spanish Usted/Ustedes, it is a polite/very formal form of adress, like the “vous” in French -

Take Bleach’s Rukia.

Her brother is a noble, one of the noblest nobles to ever noble out there. Byakuya is refered as “onii-sama” the first time they meet in the manga/anime, this is one of the highest (as i understand it?) form of polite adress one could give to their brother.

The french dub only dubbed it as “brother”, without keeping the “polite form” of adress.

Of course, calling Byakuya “my estimeed lord and brother” would feel clunky - but it would convey the message. Calling him “brother” with the random polite form of adress “vous” doesn’t quite cut it.

Still, you can say this is one of the goofs that came with 2000s era of dubbing, people tried but sometimes it failed. I supposed the main reasoning behind those “fails” was just to make a script that wouldn’t feel “odd” to anyone listening or hearing it.

But what about the intent? Or how it is important for Rukia to call her brother with this degree of politeness because she’s only an adopted member of his family and he his the noblest noble to ever noble out there? Kazé (the guys doing the dub) thought bringing this “less clunky” version to the audience was more important than conveying, through those words, Rukia’s deference towards her brother. Kazé might love Bleach, but they’re first and foremost a professional company tasked with bringing Bleach to a French audience, so no “keikaku means plan” nope.

They had to get rid of the clunky, and give a more “natural” vibe to their dubbed version of Bleach.

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Then, comes the WTF depicted in the article.

I claim far and wide how the lolcalisation for FE16 (please not the extra L to make lol) butchered certain characters I happen to care about, and ultimately muddled the already, hm, really really really subtle message the game tried to convey, burried under a pile of player pandering shit.

But, now that I think about it, it already started before but I pretended not to care because, uh, it wasn’t impacting me or it only happened for anime/games I didn’t care about, but Faulconer’s BA straight up replacing Kikuchi’s OST for DBZ in the US is, imo, completely WTF, like, to properly localise DBZ, Funanimation had to, back then, get rid of the japanese OST ? For “some reason”? What the actual fuck? Not even only using the instrumental versions, for the ones with japanese lyrics, nope, just newping them and swapping something else??

(1998-2003 (or 2001-2005) was also the 4Kids Era which might... explain things, but those explanations are flat)

Music and OSTs are inherent pieces of a work, you cannot claim to love the source material if you remove it’s bloodstream!

Still, those oddities were from the 4Kids era, and as I pointed out above, this era was - european wise - a disaster for localisation and dubs, which prompted fans to create their own “yellow subtitles”.

I suppose if mainstream animes, like Bleach or Naruto, were aired (??) in the US, they were aired post 4Kids era so no “OST switch”, meaning that, at least, they were closer to what Kazé was doing here. Give a “less clunky than fanslation teams” dub, but still keep the spirit of the substance of the source material.

But with FE16, and this thing @nilsh13 linked?

We’re back to 4Kids, or worse, evil!4Kids, not hiding their editorial changes under some “a western audience wouldn’t understand what is a rice ball, and they wouldn’t understand why people are singing in this foreign language”, but using their “creative license” to get away with most of their shit.

This is, in substance, the reason why I am always puzzled (and furious) each time a new blooper for the FE16 lolcalised script happens.

I understand some people don’t really like organised religions, okay. But why the frick altering the script, peppering “tyrants” here and “by the will of the goddess” instead of “if you have a good reason” there ? It’s minor, I understand, but when you have Ghetis in your team deriding the Church, let Ghetis use her rhetoric and manipulation threads to entice people to join her fight, the script isn’t supposed to be altered to make Ghetis look more convincing!

I, however, understand the feeling of professional localisers being disrespected if people prefer to play a “yellow subtitles” game, because their work is really important, and a good localisation will bring puns, convey meanings as close as possible to the non-intended audience.

Look at the Ace Attorney series for peak localisation, or even, as odd as it sounds, Pokémon! All those puns, Pokémon names, attacks etc... This is being creative, playing with language to “bring” the OG pun to a french/US audience, and it works!

I am very glad not to have bothered with Tales of Arise then, because I do not want to play Tommy’s take on the game, I want to play Tales of Arise, and make my own opinion/take on this game.

Tom isn’t asked to bring the “one true translation” to US audiences, he is asked to localise the game, that is to bring the game to, I suppose, US audiences (Bamco has an European branch who localised things without borrowing the version Bamco US made?).

Alrighty Tommy, but you are the one paid to bring the game to western audiences. Of course, if I could get someone’s else LP or translation for free, or as a bundle next to your take, I’d take it. But this alternative does not exist, and we are stuck with your take.

This is why, I reiterate, whoever managed to create and update the FE Datamine Website has all of my gratitude, and even beyond, because it makes it possible to see those different translations - for free - and notice what went wrong with the localisation process.

Good for you Tommy, your take on the game (dare i say fanfiction?) will forever exist, but if I was in his shoes, and my employer told me he has to redo that thing I did 6 years ago because it was shit, I’d cry and feel really bad, I wouldn’t be proud.

No Tommy, Tales of Arise didn’t sell because it was localised by Tommy Jimmy, it sell because it was from the Tales franchise, and because (i suppose) it is a good game people loved. “Your product” isn’t yours, only the localised script is yours, the nerve of calling a game you participated for 15% extra content “your game”

You’re not the author of the game.

As I said before, creative mind is something really wonderful when used in localisation, and can bring gems like the AA series or even Pokémon. But “creative autonomy”? What Autonomy are we talking about? Tommy was alone in a room, revamped the script added his tweaks, didn’t submit it to Bamco US or Bamco and gave it the developpers as the “localised” version? Is Tommy really trying to compete with, uh, the game he is supposed to localise to “demonstrate his insight and creative autonomy”?

See, again, the difference with fanslations, fans love the game they’re localising, Tommy “competes” against the game.

What the fuck “The Majority of major studio translations try to maintaing the overall tone of the world and personalities of individual characters”

Only a majority tries, or a minority won’t release their work if their “try” isn’t successful?? Or a minority don’t give a fuck??

What am I supposed to understand ??

Well, this article is oriented, but, say, if I wrote a text with a neutral organisation led by a religious dragon who hides her identity, I’d be upset if the American dub and marketing campaign butchered my game and said the neutral organisations isn’t neutral at all and rules over the continent -

Comes Kevin, and the alt-right controversies.

I am sorry to break it up to you, people who do not like memelord!Claude, people angry at Pat’n’pals lolcalising Rhea as Rhage because organised religions sus, or fanon!Edel, but you’re all alt-right gamers.

Reconquête!

Fates’s translation was a mess, yes, it happened 5 years ago, and yet, Treehouse didn’t get the memo because even if the localisation is less of a mess for FE16, meanings have been altered.

For flavour text and dialogues, yes, not for plot important points (I think?) but it’s still an alteration in the meaning that wasn’t made necessary with the need to convey a notion or a concept to western audiences.

Bar the alt-right thingJeanne O’secours

Yes, translation is an art, a science and a creative endeavor. I never stated the contrary. However, like all art, and science, it works within certain boundaries. Hate or Love the source material, the thing is the localiser has to bring it to his targeted audience, and will make some choices to do so, but the red thread to be followed, the thing that must be kept in mind is to bring “this game” to the audience, and not “a game I corrected to fit my opinions/take”.

American children* cannot understand what is a riceball ? Fine, 4Kids will use donuts instead.

American children* will not watch an anime if it has japanese singing? Fine, 4Kids will remove it and put the instrumental version.

American children* need a new OST, even for the instrumental pieces, because, uh, I can? Not fine, What the Fuck is happening with Funanimation.

American/Westerners* cannot read or even see the name Sukukaze because it’s too non-occidental for them? Treehouse will dub him “Kaze”. Why, don’t ask questions.

American players will play this game I advertise as being ruled by an oppressive Church, and how Ghetis will look for a kind successor and Pope Francis is always unhinged and screaming “’till her eyes explode”. No that’s a big no, and you’re not even trying to justify it by saying “American gamers need this version of the game else they will not understand or something”.

Tommy, Jenny and Kevin are not “altering” the script as a standard localisation process (swap the -sama by something else without making it clunky!) depicting their mastery of english language, nope. If they are complaining about the restraints to their ability to present “their take” on the game to an audience, they are already crossing the boudaries of “localisation”.

And I know, translating something always - always - mean inserting a part of yourself in your work, that’s why, if you really really really want to get the true source material, then start to learn the language.

However, I believe there’s still a middle ground between inserting “the translator’s takes” in the game, and the, idk, passive bias of the translator who tries to remain neutral - to bring the game, as close as possible, to a targeted audience (US, French, Spanish, etc etc).

Now, what happened with FE16? Was Pat and the team’s passive bias against organised religions too strong and it ended up in “do not kill unless the goddess tells you to”, even if this point is really important in FE16, and how, for all intentes and purpose, the Church of Seiros does not control Fodlan or has any relative influence in the 3 countries, even if someone says the contrary ?

But it wouldn’t explain the sheer difference in, even, the advertising of the game. NoA’s advertising claims the Church controls Fodlan, when the JP never said that, but even the NoE campaigns, in all languages (I think?) never wrote so in their official websites!!

What is NoA’s FE16? A take on the game, à la Tommy’s Tales of Arise? A 4Kids version of the game, tailored to american audiences? A failed localisation, like FE14?

The reason why I diss on the localisation for FE16 as loLcalisation is, mainly, because of the voice acting.

I understand for a dubbed game a JP!Bernie would sound super weird, and maybe some VAs wouldn’t want to try to mimick her.

But, as always, for Rhea? A kind and gentle person, seen as motherly, who becomes angry when people try to kill her, her family or her wards is... reduced to “lady with a temper you do not want to cross”? “Rhea just is”? “Rhea doesn’t emote”??

Why the frick Cherami Leigh received directions to voice Rhea-bot v.1 when the topic isn’t Sothis or Billy, or to voice Rhage when Rhea plays with her witch costume and gives sweets to people?

Even Edel, someone once said JP!Edel is the waifu bait, but under the bait you discover a red Emperor. NoA!Edel is a red emperor/serious person bait, and under the bait you get the waifu.

Why was this changed?

I don’t want to know, but this is why, I reiterate, I give many thanks to whoever updated the FE Datamine, and for whoever at IS who decided to bring Dual Audio back to the game.

I don’t want to hear Pat’s take on Rhea, I want to hear Rhea.

now, when is FEH going to be released with dual audio?

* if this sounds like I diss on US media because of their wonky localisation issues, never forget the French versions of popular animes, back in the time (90s!!), were heavily censored, made up scripts from scratch and had those goddamn french openings, completely out of this world.

Like, Fist of the North Star because meme’d so much here in Wonder France because the dub was completely made up, people didn’t follow the script at all which resulted in “Ken le Survivant” which isn’t, for all intents and purposes, a localised version of Fist of the North Star (the author even joked about it!).

Ditto for City Hunter - which became “Nicky Larson” - and the infamous “restaurants végétariens” to censor “brothels”, also with randoms mooks being shot exclaiming “Aïe bobo!” of “Oups je suis mort!” (”welp i’m dead!” <- the work of someone who cannot localise for shit)

And the ultimate, peak work of French localisation, the opening of DBZ (and, of course, the opening of DB)

#long post #lolcalisation issues #lolcalisation woes #I cannot translate for shit #a long time ago when studying ancient texts someone told me i wouldn't get the true meaning of those texts if I didn't learn the language #they were written in #so nope it's not latin nor ancient greek learn something else #this is partly a reason why i refused to continue those studies #I love localisation when they play with different registers like polite language old language etc etc #or the wordplays? Priceless #fanslations implied whoever read them wanted to be immersed in the work and lore and wouldn't mind a -sama here and there #something that cannot happen with a professional translation who brings the material for people who aren't fans but just want to play/watch #I really hope I didn't write too much shit tho #FE16 #Now I wonder did Tales of Crestoria crashed because the Western Market didn't love it since no Eng Dub?#I've seen somethings on Reddit here and there but #is the dub so important that people will literally refuse to play a game that isn't dubbed in their language?#laughs in french

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