#none of you are exempt on the basis of your identities but all of you are guilty by virtue of Saying That

[punk-pandame]

when you post about all trans people's issues and not just your own so your askbox is like "why do you think men in dresses issues are more important than Born Wombyns™️ issues" followed immediately by "are you a transandrobro truther" and shortly thereafter by "nobody has ever been harassed for looking masc you're fucking lying" and then instantaneously by "i am going to correctively rape you" followed by "oh what so there's 3/4/5/6/infinite genders now?" and "let's dose you with T (against your will) and see how much you really want to be a man" and "forcefeeding you estrogen until you remember your place. bitch" and "kill yourself tranny/faggot/dyke/some combination thereof" forever and ever until you fucking die

[spine-buster]

The President Wears Prada (William Nylander) | Chapter 4

September 28th 2019

Aberdeen Bloom was letting it all out.  

Siena had called, cooped up in her room in the house she rented with two other girls, taking a break from studying for torts law or shorts law or whatever type of law it was that she had to study.  It was these moments – moments when Siena caught up with her younger sister – that reminded her that she was slaving through law school because Aberdeen would probably need a lawyer one day after doing something colossally stupid.  She’d usually start the conversations with “You can’t tell mom and dad…” and Siena would promise not to.  And, well, she’d keep that promise.  Because sisters never told.  They only ever told on Camden.

Aberdeen told Siena about the night with William in June – she told her about a week later, after Siena was finally settled back into her place in Ottawa.  They’d talked about it for a while and had come to terms with the fact that Aberdeen would never see William again because of the whole Sweden thing and because of the fact that Toronto was a city full of a few million people.  They’d accepted it and moved on.

But then, of course, William showed up in the elevator on her first day of work and the floodgates opened.  

“Wait…hold on a second,” Siena held her hand up.  “You’re telling me you hooked up with a Toronto Maple Leaf.”

“Yes.”

“A hockey player.  That guy was a hockey player.”

“Yes,” Aberdeen stressed.  

“And now…” Siena paused.  “You work for the president of the team that he plays for.”

“Precisely.”

Siena let out a long, loud sign, facepalming before rubbing her temples.  “I don’t know how you get yourself into these situations, Aberdeen,” she shook her head.  “I honestly don’t.”

“I don’t, either.”

“What are you going to do about it?”

Aberdeen looked at her sister weird.  “There’s nothing I can do about it.  It says right in the employee handbook that no employee and player are allowed to hook up.  I can’t tell Brendan and William can’t tell the rest of the team.  That’s that.”

“Are you scared he might?”

Aberdeen considered the question.  “I really don’t know.  On one side, I feel like if he really wanted to tell them he would have told them already, and Brendan Shanahan would have found out through the grapevine and I would have already lost my job.  Like, I wouldn’t have even gone to Newfoundland.  On the other hand, I feel like the comments he’s been saying to me just make it seem like this is a game to him and he’s waiting on the most opportune moment to tell.”

“Comments?” Siena asked.  

Aberdeen sighed.  “I went to dinner with a bunch of them in St. John’s because Jason invited me, and he asked me who my favourite Leaf was in this really flirty way,” she explained.  “Then a few days later he found me alone and told me I should have said him.  Or at least have said he was fucking awesome because that’s what I said that night after we hooked up.”

Siena facepalmed again.  “Oh, Aberdeen…”

“I know, Siena.”

“Does Kasha know?” she asked.

“Of course Kasha knows.”

“Kasha won’t tell a soul.  She’s good like that.”

“I know.  My problem here is William.”

“Listen, Aberdeen…this is a fucked up situation but it’s…I mean, technically you didn’t hook up with him when you were employee.  It was months before.  You had no idea who he was.  That’s what my lawyer brain is telling me right now.”

“I don’t know if that matters,” Aberdeen said.  “I keep getting told that this is the dream job, that if I do well with Mr. Shanahan I can have my pick of any job in any field that I want in Toronto, including writing.  That’s how well connected he is.  I wouldn’t want to get on his bad side at all.  I have to be on my best behaviour and I have to keep doing well.”

“Then keep being on your best behaviour.  Keep doing your job,” Siena encouraged.  “And keep William away.”

***

September 30th, 2019

With only two days until the start of the season, Brendan had a lot of meetings with a lot of people.  There were meetings with hockey ops, meetings with the head scouts, meetings with player development, meetings with analytics.  It was a much busier time than just three weeks ago.  A lot more coffee runs.  More ordering of catered lunches.  More running around like a chicken with her head cut off, like Brendan said she would.  And this wasn’t even the start of the season.

Brendan wanted her to sit it in on the meeting he had now with basically the entire senior management so they could go over upcoming events and initiatives they’d put on throughout the season.  Kyle Dubas would be there.  Brandon Pridham and Laurence Gilman, the assistant general managers would be there.   Dave Morrison, the director of player personnel would be there.  Brad Lynn, the director of team operations would be there.  Stephen Hare, the director of finance would be there.  Steve Keogh, the director of media relations would be there.  Alison Rockwell, the director of business relations would be there.  Leanne Hederson, the manager of hockey operations would be there.  

Aberdeen was clearly studying the employee directory.  

They had a list of things to talk about, and talked through them all.  Aberdeen had her notebook and tried to take notes, but she felt like she was writing a foreign language and none of this would make sense when she went to read them again.  There was talk about “You Can Play Night”, about galas, about charity golf tournaments, about community outreach programs, about the alumni events, about the MLSE Launchpad initiatives…

Then they started to talk about alternate jerseys.  She thought there was only home and away jerseys, but no, there was apparently a third for a special night.  A “St. Pats” jersey.  It was green.  A definite change from the blue, but they kept going on and on about it.  Do we do this?  What about this?  How about this?  It was incredibly pedantic.  She felt like she was in science class again, doodling instead of taking notes since she had no clue what was being said or what was going on.  

“Do you think we should go with the same one from last season, or should we choose a new design?” Dave Morrison asked.

“It’s hard to say.  If we go with last year’s design, jersey sales may stagnate or decline if we compare it on a year-by-year basis, but a new design will boost that,” Stephen Hare said.

“Well, listen.  It’s the 2019-2020 season.  We can go with the design from 1919-1920,” Brandon Pridhan said, pulling up the mock-ups of the jersey.  Aberdeen took into account the green and white, the lettering, everything.  “Or should we balk the season number and go with this one, the 1926-1927 season design?” he held up the other mock-up.  It was basically the exact same design, except the colours were inverted.  

They were having an extremely serious and long discussion about this?  Aberdeen snorted from the corner.

Suddenly, when she looked up, every eye in the room was on her.  The smile immediately dropped from her face.  Brendan was looking at her.  “Something funny?”

Oh shit.  Oh shit.  Ohfuckohfuckohfuck.  “No, no…” she began, trying to cover for herself.  “It’s nothing – you know – it’s just that they look exactly the same to me.  I…you know, I’m still learning about all this stuff.”

“This…stuff?” Brendan asked, repeating her words.  The look that he gave her – she never wanted to be looked at like that again for the rest of her life.  “Oh…okay.  I see.  You think this has nothing to do with you.  You get hired by the Maple Leafs and you sit in on this meeting with, oh I don’t know, that iPad Pro which the company paid for, and you scoff because you think we’re taking this too seriously, and you don’t care about what jerseys fans put on their back.  But what you don’t know is that this hockey sweater is not just blue and white, it’s not just green and white, it’s actually a symbol,” he paused, moving from his spot at the table, walking around it.  “You’re also blindly unaware of the fact that in 1919 the Toronto Arenas were about to go under, only to be saved by a group of investors who renamed the team the Toronto St. Patricks, and who later made Conn Smythe their managing partner and their eventual owner.  Conn Smythe ended up changing their name in 1927 to the Toronto Maple Leafs because that maple leaf was the national symbol of Canada and, as he said, a badge of courage and a reminder of home of when he was a Canadian Army officer during World War One,” he picked the design he liked most from Brandon and pinned it onto the board, taking another from the pile.  Aberdeen’s heart stopped beating.  “The blue and white, he said, represented the Canadian skies and Canadian snow.  The name has changed, the investors have changed, and the logo has seen design changes, but that maple leaf is a symbol that represents the identity of Toronto, the history of this city, and the pride of the country.  It represents millions of dollars and countless jobs, and so it’s sort of comical how you think that you ever made a choice that exempted you from caring about these jerseys when, in fact, this city’s identity and one of the most well-known national symbols were selected for you by the people in this room who ran this hockey club.  All because of the influence of this stuff.”

He held onto a picture, holding it face up.  She broke eye contact to look down at it, only to see it was the maple leaf that was currently on the jersey.  The thirty-one points, meant to represent 1931 and the opening of Maple Leaf Gardens; the 17-vein detail, meant to represent when the franchise was founded in 1917; the 13 veins at the top, meant to represent the 13 Stanley Cup championships.  She realized what this symbol meant to not only the people in this room, but to the city, to the fabric and identity of it, to its storied past and bright future.  She realized the history behind it, the countless people who wore the sweater or jersey with pride for over a century now.  She realized how wrong and careless she’d been.  

When she looked back up, Brendan was staring at her.  So was everyone else still seated at the board table, some of them with amused looks on their faces.  “I’ll be outside if you need me,” she said, barely above a whisper because she was too embarrassed to even speak.  She clutched her iPad Pro and took the picture, walking out of the room.

The second the door closed behind her, she burst out into tears.  The tears streamed down her face as she escaped into the washroom, slamming the stall door behind her and locking it before breaking down in the bathroom stall.  Brendan Shanahan had just embarrassed her in front of some of the hockey world’s most important people and she deserved it.  She couldn’t believe she could be so fucking stupid and so dumb and callous and just such a…such an idiot.  And now here she was, crying about it in a bathroom stall.  She’d never be able to recover from this.  Brendan would think she was an idiot until the day she died.  He’d die before her and in heaven he’d still think her an idiot.

She stayed in the bathroom stall for a while, crying it all out and eventually stopping because she had no more energy to cry.  She opened the stall door and looked at herself in the mirror, trying to wipe away the tears.  Her eyes were red and of course, her cheeks were stained with tears, but she was thankful that she wore waterproof mascara that day.  She tried to collect herself, even though she had just made a complete ass of herself.  She still had a full day of work to do.  She still had to make it until 5pm.  Somehow.  

When there was nothing more she could do to fix her appearance, she sighed and decided to head back to her desk, ready to face whatever punishment Brendan was going to give her when he got out of the meeting.  There was nothing more she could say or do.  She swung open the door to the washroom and stepped out into the hallway.  

Although when she did, she crashed into a body.  When she looked up, it was, of course, none other than William Nylander.  Because her day couldn’t get any better from here.  “Hey,” he said, smiling at her.  

“What do you need?” she asked, not bothering to greet him.

He noticed the tone of her voice and the redness of her eyes and immediately changed his demeanour.  “What’s wrong?”

She side-eyed him.  As if he cared.  “I just made a complete ass of myself in front of Brendan.  No biggie,” she huffed.  

“Did you get a coffee order wrong or something?”

Now she really side eyed him.  She understood the stereotype of personal assistants, but this was not the time to start making jokes and devaluing her job.  “What do you want?  Why are you even in the offices?” she asked.  

He shrugged his shoulders.  “I wanted to see you.”

She scoffed.  “Oh, get a life, William.”

“Excuse me?”

“I don’t know why you feel the need to keep taunting me when we’re on the job, but it needs to stop,” she said.  “Don’t you have drills to go through?  Don’t you like, I don’t know, need to tape a stick?”

It was his turn to give her a look.  “Hey, don’t be mad at me just because you screwed up at your job today.  I came up here to see you because I wanted to see you.  I’m trying to be nice.”

“Taunting me at my job isn’t being nice,” she said.  “If you can’t tell, I’m not having a good day.  So I’d appreciate it if you just…wouldn’t.”

“Whatever you did can’t be worse than sleeping with a Maple Leaf and then working for his boss,” William retorted.  

Okay, now she was angry.  She grabbed his arm and dragged him towards the small kitchen – the one she’d retreated to when she walked in on them in their underwear – and shut the door behind them so they could have a private conversation.  “Listen to me,” she began, her voice as steady and as intimidating as it could be.  “I know I’m not saving the world or anything, but this job means a lot to me.  This isn’t a fucking game to me like it is to you.  This is my life.  This is my livelihood.  This is my career prospects in any industry in Toronto if I do a good job here.  And you, William Nylander, are not going to take that away from me.”

“I’m not trying to take that away from you,” William declared.  “Don’t you think that if I didn’t want you here, I would have told the guys or told Brendan already?”

Aberdeen thought back to the conversation she’d had with her sister, where she brought up the exact same point.  She shook her head.  “Then stop with the comments.  Stop with the ‘coming to see me’, flirting in front of your teammates, and the flirting in general.”

“I can’t do that,” he responded.  

“Why not?” she demanded.

“Because I want you.”

The words hung in the air for an uncomfortable amount of time as William and Aberdeen stared at each other, his blue eyes piercing her hazel ones.  Her jaw dropped at his words, and she tried to respond but she couldn’t think of anything to say.  There was nothing to say.  He just dropped a bombshell and she had no way to recover.  He wanted her.  He wanted her.  He…wanted her?  “W…What?”

William didn’t respond.  He only smiled.  He didn’t say anything else as he left those words with her, opening the door and leaving the kitchen, leaving her completely dumbfounded.  

***

Later on that night, as Aberdeen was walking back to her condo after the day’s work (and not seeing Brendan again – probably for the best, since she was going to write out and rehearse her apology she’d tell him tomorrow if she didn’t get a call that she’d been fired tonight), her phone buzzed in her pocket.  She assumed that it would be Kasha, wanting to know what they were going to do for dinner.  But when she looked at her screen, it was an unknown number that texted her.

i promise im not going to tell anybody. im not going to tell any of the guys, or kyle, or brendan, or anyone what happened in june. that stays between us.

im not that guy.  i wouldn’t do that to you.

She stopped dead in her tracks.  A pedestrian behind her almost crashed into her and yelled at her to watch where she was going.  She collected herself and moved off to the side so people could pass by her and she could read the texts over and over and over again.  She didn’t even want to know how he got her number.  She didn’t want to know what covert operation he pulled.  

She gulped.

***

October 1st, 2019

Aberdeen was impatient in the backseat of the town car as she and Lou waited for Brendan to appear.  Her leg was bobbing up and down and she was pretty sure she would have chipped all her nail polish off by now if it wasn’t shellac.  She had written out and rehearsed her apology to him and knew exactly how she was going to deliver it.  She knew she had to makes things right.

“Miss Bloom,” Lou said from the driver’s seat, looking at her through the rear-view mirror like he often did.  “Nervous energy.”

“I’m sorry Lou,” she apologized, trying not to bob her leg.  “I just need to say something to Mr. Shanahan.”

“Something bad?”

“How many apologies have you heard in this car?” she asked.

Lou chuckled.  “Many, Miss Bloom.”

“How does he react to them?”

Lou shrugged.  “Depends.”

She gulped.  As if on cue, Brendan emerged from his house.  Lou got out of the car to open the door for him.  

“Good morning, Aberdeen,” he said, his voice cheery as he got into the backseat.  He already had a stack of newspapers with him.  He was acting as if nothing was wrong.  “How are you this morning?”

“I’m…good,” she replied, confused.  She decided she should just get right into it.  “Mr. Shanahan, can I speak to you about something?”

“Brendan,” he corrected her like he always did.  He was focused on the newspaper in front of him.  “And yes, Aberdeen, you may.”

“Can you look at me?”

That caught his attention.  He lowered the newspaper and took off his glasses, waiting for her to begin.  She took a deep breath.  “I want to sincerely apologize for my comments yesterday in the meeting,” she began.  “It was really insensitive of me to scoff, and then to make that comment – just really callous, and I want to apologize.  I don’t want you thinking that this job means nothing to me, because it does.  It means the world—”

“Aberdeen,” Brendan interrupted her, holding up his hand.  She stopped talking, and could tell he was thinking of what to say.  “First of all, thank you for your apology,” he began.  “What I said to you in that room, in front of everybody – I just wanted to make sure you know the importance of the work we do here.”

“I do.  I mean – I do now.”

“Hockey in Toronto is not just hockey,” he began.  “It’s a living, breathing entity in and of itself.  The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will see the importance of not just my work, or the work of anybody else that was in the room that day, but of your work too.  You are part of the Toronto Maple Leafs now, Aberdeen, whether you like it or not.  You have a role to play here in the success of the team just like anybody else.  Just because you’re an executive assistant, it doesn’t mean you don’t.”

“Yes sir,” she nodded her head.  

“I know you have a steep learning curve to go through.  I knew that when I hired you.  You’ll go through it.  And you’ll make a hell of a lot of mistakes along the way.  But you’ll go through it.  And you’ll come out better.  With more knowledge.  Understood?”

“Yes sir.  Absolutely,” she nodded her head.  Brendan sent her a quick smile before putting his glasses back on and focusing on the newspaper again.  “So…I guess this means I’m not fired?” she asked, just for reassurance.

That actually got a laugh out of Brendan.  “No, Aberdeen.  I could never fire an Etobicoke girl.”

***

October 2nd 2019

The season opener was just pure insanity.  There was no other way Aberdeen could rephrase it besides that – just pure insanity.  Brendan had meetings, she had to coordinate this, she had to run for coffees, she had to go get notes from someone, the phone was ringing off the hook…Lou even had to take her in the town car up to Yorkville, to Prada and to Gucci and to Hermes, so she could pick up ties for him to wear once all the media came rushing in.  It was a complete shit show.  She barely had time to eat, drink, or even think because she was so busy trying to get everything done.  

But something happened to her once she and Brendan made their way up to the media gondola to sit in the President’s private box with Kyle Dubas and Brandon Pridham: she watched the game.  From start to finish, she watched the Toronto Maple Leafs dominate the Ottawa Senators 5-3 to win the game.  She saw Auston Matthews score two goals – and William assist beautifully on one of them.  It was textbook perfect.  She saw the comradery of the boys on the bench.  She saw Brendan and Kyle seem excited.  

She remembered back to how excited the people of Newfoundland were at just a practice and an exhibition game.  She saw how excited the crowd was tonight at the way the team played and the outcome of the game.  

She began to get it.

She followed Brendan out of the gondola so they could head down to the locker room about five minutes before the game was going to end.  When the team began to come in, she wondered if she should clap – her questions were answered when she saw the equipment personnel fist-bump the boys.  She held out her hand to show her support.  Brendan laughed.

“Wooooo!  Let’s go baby!” Auston screamed as he looked directly at her, fist-bumping her with his enormously large hockey glove.  In that moment, she was sure one of them was going to knock her over one day.

“Good job boys!” she yelled out as they trickled in.  John was next, giving her a fist-bump and a quick nod.  

Morgan saw her and screamed at her.  “Wooooo!”

“Wooooo!” she mimicked, smiling from ear to ear as she fist-bumped him.  She held her hand out for Andreas, for Kasperi, and for Sandin.  William filtered through, and when she caught his eye, a large smile appeared on his face.  “Good job boys!” she yelled out again as they fist-pumped.

As they boys filtered into the locker room and began to take off their gear, Brendan walked in, motioning for Aberdeen to follow him.  She stood behind him and Kyle Dubas as they watched Mike Babcock make his post-game speech and present the team with one of the Raptors’ game used balls from their championship run.  One player would get it after every game won.  Auston got it tonight for scoring two goals, and he did a few tricks.  

Aberdeen helped usher Mike into a separate room so he could do post-game media before they went into the locker room.  She watched as a horde of reporters stuck microphones into his face and asked him questions about the game.  When Brendan called her back into the locker room, he told her he was free to go.  

She looked up at one of the TV monitors that was broadcasting Mike’s interview from the other room live, wanting to hear what good things he had to say before she left.  Out of the corner of her eye, she saw William approach her, the bottom half of his gear still on, chucking something into the garbage.  He stood beside her, looking up at the monitor too to listen in.

“Can you speak to Matthews’s goals tonight?  The assist from Nylander must have looked good on your end,” one of the reporters asked.

“Yeah, the goals were good.  Looked really good.  The assist looked better than the one’s from last season, that’s for sure – he’s clearly been practicing,” Mike began.

Aberdeen didn’t hear anything else he had to say as she furrowed her brows.  She knew that she didn’t know anything about hockey, but she thought the team played fantastic tonight.  They won, for heaven’s sake.  If she was a casual viewer and thought they played well, and that William’s assist on Auston’s goal looked incredible, that had to speak for something, right?  A person who wasn’t even a fan being impressed?  She didn’t know.  But when she looked over at William, she saw a defeated look on his face.  He clearly took the comments to heart, and it killed her to see his excitement die down over a stupid comment.

“Does he always give you backhanded compliments?” she asked quietly, looking at him.  

William noticed her looking, and gave her one of those tight-lipped smiles as he shrugged his shoulders.  “Don’t worry about it.  I’m used to it.”

Aberdeen didn’t like that answer.  

[zhanenaomi]

It must be exhausting to be so weird all the time

Earlier, I saw a clip on the BBC Facebook page of Original Flava (a British-Caribbean duo creating recipes), making some bbq jerk burgers. As is my bad habit, I checked the comments for the inevitable racist comment about the BBC trying to be “woke” for showing people that black people exist in the UK. There I found a random account, posting a youtube clip of the late Dame Vera Lynn singing ‘Land of Hope and Glory’. This comment was obviously in reference to the fact that the BBC recently announced that ‘Rule Britannia’ and ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ would be performed without words at the Proms (only for this year). This, again obviously, is the fault of all black people (including Original Flava) and absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that we are in a global pandemic of a virus that is easily spread by loud singing. The thing that disturbs me most about these comments is less the blanket assumption that all black people just sit around foaming at the mouth at the sheer idea of colonial lyricism, and more that this random person had clearly just copied the link to this video to post on any video they saw with a black person in it. Whether that video was about black people barbecuing, black people singing, black people talking about the economy, they were ready to own us with a youtube video of a song literally none of us will click on and listen to. It just made me think, surely it is exhausting to be so weird all the time?

Now, comments like this are admittedly pretty harmless, especially given the fact that they present that the person commenting is much more hurt than anyone else in this situation. However, by far the most disturbing thing I saw in the BBC comments that day, was on a Children in Need post. BBC Children in Need announced that they would specifically be donating £10 million to black children (a thing that is reasonably necessary given that 46% of BAME children live in poverty) (also this will be going over the course of 10 years, not a one time payment). By all intents and purposes, it is highly likely that vast amounts of Children in Need money were already going to black communities, given they go to… British children that are in need. The post in question was clarifying on false reports that they were giving money directly to the Black Lives Matter organisation, and in response many people said that since the BBC were now giving money to black children, they would no longer give money to the BBC. This, despite the fact that Children in Need fundraises year-round, and raised almost £50 million during their official appeal night last year and has raised more than £1 billion since 1980, and so £10 million over ten years is likely a drop in the ocean for this organisation. Way to throw your toys out of the pram, right guys? “If disadvantaged black kids are getting my money, then no disadvantaged kids are getting my money”! What a bizarre world view to have! It must take up a lot of time and energy to not only decide that giving money to disadvantaged children of colour in a country where they’re more likely to be disadvantaged than white children is racist for some reason, but then also to camp out in random Facebook comment sections talking about how you hate this alleged racism so much that you will be boycotting a charity because of it. Remarkably wild. Amazingly wild. Incredibly wild.

The last Facebook comment section weirdness I want to talk about is the reaction to news involving arrests, crime, and police brutality, most specifically the “If you do nothing wrong, the police will leave you alone” argument. First of all, tell that to yer man Harry Maguire. Second of all, there is police data stating that between March and May, you know, those months when we were knee deep in the throes of a global pandemic that is disproportionately killing black people, 21,950 stops and searches on young black men were carried out in the capital, approximately 80% of which lead to no further action. So if we’re keeping score, not only is the most expensive defender in the world not exempt from being harassed by police when his account suggests no wrongdoing on his part, but around 18,000 young black men were put directly in harms way by being searched by police without masks (and obviously without social distancing) in the midst of a pandemic, for no crime other than being black and maybe having a nice car. The reason I bring up Harry Maguire is because I would assume that most British people believe and support Harry Maguire over the Greek police, and none of them would ever use the “no crime, no police intervention” argument towards a news story about him. You know, like they did when George Floyd died. The point here is that people in these comments like to pretend that they are indiscriminate. They like to say “I don’t care if you’re rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight (insert identity here), if you’re getting arrested you must have done something wrong” which is simply just not true, and the fact that you don’t say these things when a white British footballer is brutally arrested is very telling. It shows who you assume to have being “doing crime” when they were apprehended versus who you assume to be innocent until proven guilty. Because the fact of the matter is that you DO care whether someone is black or white or poor or rich and the like, you obviously do. And its weird to lie about it to save face in Facebook comments. Ain’t you tired, Miss Hilly? (I’m assuming you all understand that reference given the unnecessarily large amounts of people who rushed to watch The Help after the BLM protests began earlier this year).

These things are all interconnected, because I’m sure that these keyboard warriors had some similarly angry takes when Stormzy offered scholarships to black students aiming to go to Cambridge University, and love to talk about “black on black crime” when black people are invited onto news outlets to talk about institutional racism in the police force. What this comes down to, is a clear lack of critical thinking and a clear racial bias. We know that crimes like theft and drug dealing tend to be crimes of necessity. No one steals bread and milk for the “thrill of the chase”. Poverty and crime are intrinsically linked. So why are you so hellbent on preventing black people from receiving assistance to escape poverty? If you want crime to reduce, then you should also want poverty to reduce, this is just the truth. If you don’t see how crime in black communities links to socioeconomic status in these black communities, then you probably (consciously or unconsciously) believe that nothing can be done to help black people; we are just inherently bad, born with a criminal gene. Suffice to say, this is a racist thought to have. Even when black people do manage to “pull ourselves up by our bootstraps” this also does not mean we’ll be treated favourably by the general public. The nation’s favourite punching bag is a black woman who was born into a low income household, attended Cambridge University, worked in the Civil Service and became the first black female MP in this country; this is of course Diane Abbott, who unfortunately receives half of all the abuse sent to female MPs overall.

Although I started out joking about how these people are just weird, the more I write, the more uncomfortable I feel. Is there a way out? Is there anyway we can win? Is our destiny to win the bet, just to be shot in the face by our loan sharks and have our proverbial jewellery shop ransacked (metaphor working on the assumption of your knowledge of the film Uncut Gems)? Its one thing to say weird things in video comments, it’s another to actually truly believe them. In the wake of the recent shooting of Jacob Blake, I’ve witnessed a spate of comments making statements about the case that are simply not true – things that have never been reported by the police or any credible news outlets. What do you gain from lying about these things? I guess you gain more public distrust in the black community and more animosity towards BLM protesters. I assume that’s what these people are aiming for, since I can see no personal benefit to lying about a case (unless you are the actual police officers involved in the shooting?). I actively try and stop myself from hopping into comment sections now because honestly and truly, it’s one of the most exhausting things to see hundreds of people talk about how bored they are of black people appearing on their screens. I’m sorry that my presence tires you out, guys. I’ve been staying off of Twitter because it’s good for my mental health to not be dialled into the ~discourse~ 24/7. It’s sad the way that these things often make black people feel that they are the ones who need to pull away in order to protect themselves. Dawn Butler has tweeted about how many young black women tell her they can’t see themselves pursuing a career in politics because of the sheer amount of hate they see black MPs receive. I want black children to receive financial support without fear that the rest of the world hates them for it. I want black people to get uni places and jobs without hearing others say that they got it because of their skin, rather than their merit and potential. I want black people to be present in the public eye without having to report racial abuse against them to the police on a weekly basis. The way that Britain works is that Britain has been and always will be, a multicultural nation. This is the result of the British Empire that we’re all oh so proud of. Therefore, (and this is not controversial to say), British people descended from individuals born in Empire nations deserve to live in Britain without constant apology for our existence, our actions, and our criticism of our government. Yeah, I bet its exhausting to act in such a bizarre way on social media. But imagine how tired we are.

 References:

Children in Need is not donating £10 million to Black Lives Matter - https://fullfact.org/online/children-in-need-blm/?fbclid=IwAR0RfWtsHKxeFGv8PBrY64J-QoqpiEWb3Td1nPE9WvYvZXTuksIB3ZOET9k

BBC Children in Need’s 2019 Appeal raises an incredible £47.8 million - https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2019/cin-total

Child poverty facts and figures - https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

Met carried out 22,000 searches on young black men during lockdown - https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/08/one-in-10-of-londons-young-black-males-stopped-by-police-in-may

Diane Abbott more abused than any other female MP during election - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/05/diane-abbott-more-abused-than-any-other-mps-during-election

[starcityhq]

WHAT: The Justice League and the Avengers officially combine to form The Avenging League of Justice - or The Avenging League for short. Batman and Captain America lead the first meeting to discuss strategies for combating NOVA. Egos clash and chaos ensues, but teams are set and there is finally a plan in motion.

WHO: Batman, Captain America, Wonder Woman, Superman, Iron Man, Falcon, Loki, Bucky, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Superboy, Supergirl, Flash, Spiderman, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Booster Gold, Zatanna, Oracle, Batgirl, Stinger, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Nightwing, and Red Robin.

WHEN: Tuesday, March 20th, 2020.

BATMAN: The meeting took much longer to organize the Bruce would have liked. The latest events in Star City were unfortunate distractions, but after the riot it seemed everyone was finally prepared to commit to the union of their prospective teams. The Justice League reformed years ago, but the only consistent members were himself and Diana - until Clark’s return. Even though Bruce would never admit it, it was his arrival that put life back into the idea. It made it seem more than possible; now, it was necessary. He gave everyone time to be seated. Even though there were several meetings he had with Steve in the past in preparation for this, he was still unprepared for the amount of people that showed. All of them he knew, even if they knew little nothing more about him than his reputation and, more recently, his real name. “We are here because we have a common goal and a common enemy.” He skipped the pleasantries and the thank yous. He expressed his gratitude to everyone he asked here and saw little reason to do so a second time. There were more pressing things to discuss. “Alone we have been able to fight them on a smaller scale, but that is no longer enough. If we are going to eradicate NOVA’s influence from Star City and prevent further destruction, we need to unite. I assume you all understand that, or you would not be here. During this meeting we will share what we each know about NOVA, their organization, technology, as well as their connections to a higher government. All of us have pieces of the puzzle. If we’re going to beat them, we must know everything about them. They are not infallible.” He paused, frowning. “I do know that they are currently perfecting a device that will not only de-power mutants, but meta-humans as well. Kryptonians and other aliens will not be exempt from this.”

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Steve had put on the Cap suit for the first time since... well the last time he had put it on had been for himself. But this time, he had put it on for its true purpose. And it was as if he was home in a lot of ways. Maybe that was cheesy, as Bucky always accused him of being. But it was true. All that was missing was the weight of the shield at his back. He had left off his helmet--his identity hadn't been secret since 1941--and he wanted to be able to connect to the people around him, some of them friends, some of them former allies, and some of them people he had fought against but who had changed for the better. With the League assembled alongside the new Avengers, it was the kind of thing deep enough to give him real hope. "Batman is right," he said simply. "For a long time, we've been letting these guys go unchecked, and they've been hurting people. Not just you and me, but people who need us. The riots really brought that out hard, but Batman and I started discussing this long before that. As Avengers, we're no strangers to operating against the flow of what is expected in pursuit of the greater good. With all of us combined with the Justice League, we can see the loose threads to pull on to unravel this whole thing. To protect people. A man much smarter than me once said 'one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws', and we're in a unique position to see that injustice firsthand and to work together to bring this city back to a place where people can feel safe again." He glanced around at everyone at the table. "As Batman said, we all have the tools, but separate we're just people. Together, we're more powerful than anything they can throw at us. It's not gonna be easy, but we've all faced hard things before."

SUPERMAN: It was years too late, what they were doing. They’d all bowed out and Clark had championed it, like a fool, so the injustice they were speaking of correcting felt a little more like picking up the pieces that should’ve never fallen in the first place. He’d dealt with that feeling for awhile, though, and there was no more room for the guilt when he (they) had finally decided to move again. So he gave Bruce and Steve his full attention, suppressing the swell of gratitude and relief he felt at seeing them at the helm of what they were doing. On their own, none of them had been able to right the wrongs that had happened, but he had not a single doubt that all the people around that table were capable of pulling together to do it. “There are a lot of people outside of this room depending on us to get this right. I know we can do it.” He glanced around at his Justice League compatriots and all the new faces of the Avengers he hadn’t officially met. “That’s why we’re here. NOVA has had a lot of chances to hit first, and I think it’s time we took some of them away.”

BLACK WIDOW: Natasha didn't speak. She didn't need to. Seated between James and Clint, it was like coming back from a long trip as she watched Steve give one of his keystone inspirational speeches. Her green eyes flitted around the room, marking the rapt expressions on most of the faces. Ever so subtly, she moved to slip her fingers into Clint's. They had plans to take him to James' therapist. They'd get his memories unlocked, but she was sure he was probably feeling lost, even if she had filled him in about NOVA and he had been there for the riots. He belonged here. He was an Avenger, but she wondered what was going through his head. Self-doubt, likely. He didn't remember this part of his life. Still, hearing Steve speak for the first time was a sobering experience for her. She wondered what it was like to get a second first time.

ZATANNA: Zatanna did her nails while everyone sat and listened. The brush moved on its own, though she occasionally had to twitch a finger to keep it going. She knew why she was here, obviously, but at the same time, she knew nothing about NOVA, and all she really wanted to do was set the bastards on fire. Maybe have ants eat them from the inside out. This was what happened when she was left alone and allowed to get creative. Flicking a wave at Bruce, she added a flourish of bats into her nail polish just to amuse herself. She showed them off. It wasn't her fault she could never be serious about this sort of thing. She dealt with eldritch horrors and world ending nightmares on a fairly regular basis. This was just bureaucracy. And the inspirational speech was lovely, but really, what did it accomplish? This is why she didn't work in groups, they spent too much time talking and not enough time doing. "So, do we have any concrete ideas? Or is this just a planning committee?" Her leg swung over the other, her foot tapping restlessly, she was the picture of impatience. "None of you fought this when it started. Everyone just accepted it and retired. I had to go halfway around the world and rehab my image for years to get people to think of me as just a stage magician so I could still keep the universe from getting cut open by the next greedy idiot who decided power was worth a lot of people dying. And now we're all here to pump some pompoms and talk about our feelings? Spare me." Normally she was better behaved. She'd been spending too much time with cranky wizards. "Look, I know I'm the asshole here, I know we have to fix things now regardless of what already happened. Proceed." She pulled a rabbit out of her top hat and fed it treats from her pocket.

WICCAN: Billy was a little starstruck, just as he’d been the first time the Young Avengers had suddenly been actual Avengers and were taken to the mansion. It was marred slightly by the idea that his mother was dating Batman, shattering the illusion just a fraction, but it was easy to forget while sitting around that table. Still, he wasn’t there to be a fan. He was there to be an Avenger and, first and foremost, help people. Even if speaking after Superman made him want to throw up just a little. “Since this...is a problem that is a lot bigger than just us, I guess I have a question already.” He looked up toward the head of the table at Bruce and Steve, “Are we sharing the information we have with the X-Men?” Obviously they weren’t the Avengers and they weren’t the League, but Billy was a mutant on top of all the rest. So was everyone in his family. If it was pure radio silence on that front, that sat wrongly with him. “...Glad to be here, though,” he added. He glanced only briefly at Zatanna after she’d spoken to say, “And we didn’t all retire.” He’d never put away his suit, even if changing the world on his own was...frowned upon, to say the least.

ORACLE: "Taking on big corporations and entities of evil takes time, manpower, and strategy. I think plenty people, here and not here, tried to fight off NOVA, but you can only fight government-backed and covered-up abuse so much on your own. I think that's the point," Barbara leaned forward, not at all mad that Zatanna spoke up, if anything she was amused at her friend, with a ghost of a smirk on her face. She was also more than used to at least some of the people here making their opinions undeniably known, so she continues without hesitation. She certainly doesn't disagree that action is the priority here. "As far as their systems, I've determined timeframes I can personally have them exposed and vulnerable, both virtually and physically. I'm still working on being able to do these things undetected, but that will come soon enough. We have ways in, but we need coordination. I also think," Barbara nods to Billy, "that the X-Men will be able to help us here. Magneto may have taken responsibility, but he didn't single handedly evacuate all of NOVA's 'patients' from that place. They have experience here that's going to be invaluable, and we'd only be making ourselves weak by not attempting to reach out."

LOKI: Loki had never been a part of a team really. He had been working with the JLD at the request of the other magic users, though very few people knew about his role undercover as Johan the insane NOVA scientist. He was in it for the chaos, sure, and for the security of throwing in with the people who had absolutely pummeled him when he had tried to take over Midgard--through granted, the Mad Titan had made him insane enough to get him to do it. He had needed to be pummeled. But all that aside... this talk of justice was all new for him. What Zatanna said was right on the tip of his tongue, and mischief danced through his eyes before he clamped down on it. "I agree with our esteemed 'stage magician'," he said simply. "While all the talk of--" He switched into Steve for a moment--"injustice and saving people and what we can do together--" Back to Loki. "Is extremely moving... on Asgard when such a threat was present, we, too, gathered our strongest warriors. However, the Council usually decided that waging war was the right go ahead unless, of course, we couldn't win. But can't she wipe things from reality?" He said, nodding to Wanda. "Mightn't it be a little simpler to look to the example of the man in the metal suit? There cannot be riots if there is no NOVA left." He nodded to the one in blue with the flowing red cape. "He looks to be an impressive warrior alongside Sir Justice. Zatanna is right, what are the plans?" Why, for example, was he gathering information for them? He was happy to do it, but if the reason wasn't to more efficiently wage war... what was it. He was legitimately confused.

NIGHTWING: Dick knew firsthand how difficult it was to run a team. People seemed to assume that those who had the initiative to head up a group had all the answers, or should, and didn’t recognize that it was a collaborative effort. The fact that Bruce was willing to entertain others’ ideas and not tackle this on his own was a surprising development; in his opinion, it made it clear that things were a lot more dire than most people were willing to admit. Steve’s speech was moving and was meant to inspire them. While he understood others’ frustrations, it frustrated him that it was brushed aside just because neither of them could provide all the answers. “The point is to avoid more death and destruction,” he said. “Seems to me like waging war without fully understanding our enemy and their abilities would be a mistake. We’re all here to share what we know, so we can come up with a solid plan that limits casualties. If any one of you actually thought getting together and sharing our expertise, and we have a lot of it, is an actual waste of time, then the door’s over there.” He didn’t have a lot of patience for people complaining about things not getting things done and then… offering little in way of concrete or productive plans that WOULD get things done. “Babs is right. This is going to take a great deal of strategy if we’re going to get the upper hand, especially because this organization goes way beyond what we’re just seeing in Star City. There are other government agencies involved. It goes a lot higher up, and... I don't know if we know the extent of it yet.”

FLASH: For once in his entire life, Barry hadn't been late to something. He was worked up and wired – but relatively calm for him. They were all supposed to be a team again; and in the spirit of camaraderie he had attended the meeting in costume – but lowered his cowl once inside the conference room. “Not all of us retired, Z... I just, sort of disappeared for a while.” He fidgeted but moved on. “Barry Allen – by the way; or uh, The Flash. For those of you that I don't officially know.” He waved slightly. What was a secret identity anyway? Barry shot a look at the man – Loki – as he shifted his form and questioned about a direct course of action. “Nightwing is right.” He gestured at Dick. “Wiping something – someone, people – from reality isn't the answer... just like messing with time wasn't the answer for myself or anyone else here that has the ability to do so--” He couldn't help but eye Michael slightly. “Uh, information, right. So, the only real information I have regarding NOVA is from a conversation I had with their lieutenant, a Jihl Nabel. She played the role to a tee but the is bad blood between NOVA and the SCPD. She left an agent behind to monitor our forensics department – which I gotta say has been incredibly annoying dealing with – but I think there might be a distrust among NOVA that the local authorities will refuse to continue putting up with their presence or no longer do as they say without question.” Barry explained at length before settling back into his chair. “Sorry I don't have more information... splitting myself between forensics cases and Flash-work has left little spare time to actual tangle with these guys.”

HUMAN TORCH: Being at a round table with so many other people was a far cry from the Fantastic Four. Just Four. Johnny didn’t know half of who he was looking at, and his own personal agenda was coloring everything in his life right then. He wanted to know what the hell had happened to Peter, and he was more sure than ever that NOVA was behind whatever it was. The weird isolation they’d had to maintain mingled with his own lack of patience and just plain irritation and he’d been unable to drum up his usual sunny self for the meeting. “Preparation and strategy, sure. That’s why we’re sitting here. But if we don’t start moving right now, people are going to get killed, and I’d rather take a shot at something before that happens. So, no offense, but I want someone to point in a direction before we walk away from this table. That’s what we’re doing, right? Because NOVA is up to something sick. I’m not...sneaky special intelligence guy or scientist guy or whatever most of you sitting here are,” he glanced briefly toward Peter and swallowed, “but I don’t want to sit on my hands anymore.”

HAWKEYE: Hawkeye was sat between Nat and Spider-Man, probably looking too casual for such a Serious Gathering: his long legs kicked out in front of him and his right arm was slung over the corner of the back of his chair, an arrow twirling effortlessly between his fingertips, while his left hand rested near Nat. He at least wasn't wearing his bright purple uniform. Natasha had taken him to meet a nice kid named Shuri who had designed a whole new get up for him along with a new bow and quiver, and he had fallen a little bit in love with her for it. The bow was gorgeous all sleek lines and reinforced vibranium with a two-hundred-and-fifty pound draw weight. He might have cried when she handed it over. Just a little. His uniform was just as nice, sleek and black with gold accents. It wasn't until after he saw the completed design that he realised that he had subconsciously designed both armour and a sneak suit. Sitting there Clint wondered if this was the sort've thing he used to do all the time when he was an Avenger. It seemed like a really big group. Like, they were all actual superheroes, unlike Clint who was just a mix of innate talent and crazy amounts of practicing/honing his skills, couldn't they just...take care of any problem they ran into? He was pretty sure Tasha could take these NOVA people single-handedly, but then again, he was probably biased there. Feeling long fingers slipping in between his larger, calloused ones he glanced over at the redhead, unable to help the dopey looking grin on his face. Yeah, he was definitely biased there. Not that he could help it, he could definitely see why past-him had stuck around the Russian ex-assassin, and her stunning good looks were the least of it. Her competence frankly both terrified him and brutally turned him on. But, those weren't exactly the kind of thoughts he should probably be having in the middle of an Important Meeting. ­

His thumb idly circled against the side of Nat's hand as he listened to everyone give their opinions on the current situation, but then someone spoke up that he actually recognised. Leaning forwards a little he looked around Natasha and Bucky at Loki, grinning as he nodded at him. They'd gotten drinks a couple times since first running into each other, thankfully the other times hadn't been quite as existential as the first one, but it turned out that Loki actually as a good listener and spilling his guts to the other man had made Clint feel a little less anxious and insecure about his situation. Sitting back he listened to Loki going on and found himself nodding along, and then he was pointing at the Trickster with the arrow in his hand. "I agree with Loki."

BATGIRL: It would be a lie if Steph was all for the whole strategic thing. She felt itchy, eager to get her hands wrapped around some NOVA agent necks, especially after what happened to Commissioner Gordon. The old Steph might have jumped in and said that without a second thought, especially because Zatanna was clearly on the side of action. Sitting on her hands and thinking things through wasn’t exactly up her alley. “Pretty sure we’re all here ‘cause we’re not going to be sitting with our thumbs up our asses anymore.” She shrugged. “But I get that we have to smart about it, especially if all of you metahumans could have your power wiped out like that -“ She snapped her fingers. “I mean no offense, I’m sure a lot of you have good hand to hand combat training, but I don’t like our odds as much if that’s what we’re left with.” Yawning, she combed one hand through her thick hair. Her head felt hot underneath the Batgirl cowl. “Anyone got an actual suggestion for action? What about Jihl whoever? Is she anyone important to just some trumped up figurehead?” Picking at her nails, she shrugged. “As much as I want to wipe out NOVA, they need to pay for what they’ve done.”

SCARLET WITCH: Wanda felt her blood go cold as Loki brought up her power. She had wiped things from reality on a large scale before. She had murdered thousands, destroyed lives, put a rift between teams. The mere suggestion had her uneasy, her dark eyes lifting to the Asgardian. For the most part, she worked well with Loki, but she wasn't going to sit by and let him suggest carnage and use her as an example. "I suggest you defer to those of us who know how things are done on earth, Loki," she said. "And I'd think carefully before making reference to powers you don't understand." She let out a breath, shaking her head before continuing. "I am aware that there have already been some pushes for information, but the League and the Avengers don't take action and the lives of others into their own hands to push their agendas like my--like Magneto. But my son and Oracle are right. The X-Men will be invaluable in this fight and while an alliance the depth of ours may not be necessary, their insight is important here." Pausing, she subconsciously ran a hand over the intricate beadwork of the crown her father had made her back before all of this. "That said... I question the methods of some of their members, as they have questioned mine in the past." She hated to say that. Hated it so much, but her father was formerly an X-Man and he had close affiliations with them now. He was one of those who helped run District X. "Do we have plans to talk with them directly about where they stand after the attack on the detention center?" Her father had taken credit and said he acted alone, but her sister at the very least had been involved and she wouldn't be surprised if there were others. "I know that Cyclops is a reasonable man. Surely approaching him is a good call when we discuss taking down NOVA?"

BOOSTER GOLD: While Michael didn't have much information to give, he was just happy that the band was getting back together again - this time with even more opinionated people. The suggestion of just wiping NOVA out made him nervous, if only because he knew it would really screw with time things and a mighty disapproval would be wrought down upon him. He caught the tail end of Barry's glance that he'd thrown his way, only to return it with a look of his own. A string of silent email notifications showed up on the screen of his phone which he had hidden on his thigh, distracting him partly as he skimmed.

He'd known that Steve had managed to recruit a sizeable collection of people for the Avengers, but lumping in all the others had a lot of opinions in one room. He still wasn't entirely convinced that he belonged there among them for a whole variety of reasons, but he'd agreed to it and still believed in the overall necessity of someone being around to extend a hand when the world needed it. Even a cybernetic one. "You can't just rewrite the world every time something goes wrong in it, and you can't cut off one head and walk away thinking another one won't replace it." HYDRA had taught him that much. It was naive to think anything had a simple solution. They knew NOVA ran deeper than just the organization itself or a single person. "This has to be as much an infiltration as a fight."

RED ROBIN: Tim sat quietly. Honestly... he wished he gotten a little more sleep before coming. He was running out of coffee and this was a lot of words. Beside him, Steph was her typical, to-the-point self. Action first, overthinking later. Tim was over-thinking always, action at just the right moment. Now, he finally nodded before adding to what Babs had said. "I'm working on the tech side with Oracle," he said simply. "NOVA's well protected digitally, but not impossible." After all, at the tender age of thirteen, Tim had been capable of hacking the social security office and other big government agencies. "We'll have a lot of their structure nailed down before too long here." He had taken a break to find Jim's attempted murderer, but he was back on it now, glad to be working with his father again, his family. He was aware that they were all here in the assemblage. All except one. But it wasn't as if Jason would ever be a part of a team like this. He could imagine the smart ass bitchy response that would come out of someone even insinuating it. "The point is, we aren't doing nothing. At least... I'm not and Oracle isn't. Batman and Captain America either." Obviously. Those two were the ones who had made all this happen.

SPIDERMAN: Peter reached over to take a hold of one of Johnny's hands wordlessly, as if the gesture would help to soothe the brusque tone of his words. He was right, though - they needed to nip this in the bud sooner rather than later, before it could get any worse than this. They already had the idea that NOVA had been behind Peter's sudden loss of control. How, though? Even during a forced isolation, courtesy of an overprotective Tony Stark, he was coming up empty handed. The video footage he'd managed to find showed no signs of interference, no one performing a spell or injecting him with anything. He came up empty handed and it was frustrating as all hell, but he wasn't about to quit now, especially not when there were a lot of questions still left unanswered.

IRON MAN: This had to be the place. Funny that he expected a window or two, but he should have known better given the reputation of the Justice League. Tony didn’t know why they bothered with secrecy when it was only a matter of time before everyone knew who each and every one of them were. He entered the room without (well, maybe a little) fanfare, holding a Starbucks cup in one hand and with Steve’s shield on his arm. He pushed up his sunglasses and squinted at everyone. “First time my eyes have to adjust to the dark for a meeting, I have to say. You ever heard of natural light?” He eyed Bruce and smirked, tipping his cup in his direction. “Say no more.” Circling around the room, he found an empty chair and raised a brow at the computer screen. “Ohh, nice tech. Willing to bet that 10% of this room is looking at porn right now.” He looked at Steve and gestured to the shield, his tone shifting to one more serious for the first time since entering the room. “Figured you might need this. The thing’s gotten to be a real eyesore.”

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Steve had been listening to everyone, letting everyone speak and hearing everyone's opinions. It didn't seem too dire, but there were concerns that he and Bruce were going to need to address when things seemed to settle down a little. It was fine. They had anticipated those things. The conversations that Bruce and Steve had had before had already laid down groundwork for going to Scott, for dealing with integrating the X-Men where they could. Sue was just about to speak when an all too familiar voice cut through the room and Steve's eyes shot up. Tony. Tony had actually come... Steve had asked him to. They'd been talking on the phone since the day Tony had answered. After seven years of phone calls and messages. All of them ignored until the day Steve had really needed him. When Steve's life had felt like it was falling apart well and truly. He had left the SCPD, Nomad was behind him, there was no real Cap in front of him, Bucky had left him and there was just silence. And then he'd kept answering. Kept listening. Tony and he weren't the same. They hadn't talked as deeply on a mutual level, and he could tell that he'd have to do the work to get the other to open up to him. But he'd just... listened. Hadn't given advice, hadn't tried to placate Steve. There wasn't even any bias when he'd talked about Bucky and the pain and how lonely he'd felt in his own damn home. It had been surprising for Tony because Steve had never known him to be feelings guy. But on that level it had given Steve so much hope that every night, Tony had just sat on the other line, listening or even just pretending to. And now here he was. Because he belonged here. Tony Stark was an Avenger and would always be an Avenger, and tearing their team--their family--apart had been one of the hardest choices he'd ever made. But he'd done it. And he'd do it all over again if he had the same options in front of him. But Tony... Tony he might have handled differently. If he could have.

As the other approached him, Steve's chest ached and his stomach tightened. "Tony," he said quietly. "You came." It was perhaps too intimate a moment to experience in front of all of the assembled company, some of whom didn't know him well. But he couldn't help it. Steve had never been the type of person to hide how he was feeling and he never would be. Even Tony's stupid joke fell on deaf ears as he held out the Shield. The Shield that would feel so right on his arm. That belonged with him but had been given back to Tony because he deserved to reclaim it. Because Howard had given it to Steve and Steve had chosen to relinquish it after everything. It was a part of him, and letting Tony take it had been like giving up part of himself. Now, as it snapped into place again, like it had always been there, like it had just been waiting for Steve and Tony to remember where it belonged, where they belonged, Steve's baby blue eyes burned. Steve Rogers felt the weight of Captain America. He felt... whole. "We'll talk later," he said to the other. "But... I'm glad you came."

INVISIBLE WOMAN: Susan shot Peter an apologetic look, though there was hardly much to do. Instead, she was privy to a one man show when Tony showed up fashionably late; honestly, it was completely on brand for him, so she didn't find herself so much as batting as eyelid, but she did sink into her chair a little lower as she watched the situation between him and Steve unfold. She had to wonder, though, how far had NOVA gotten with their anti-power technology. If metahumans were still untouched, then maybe she'd be able to sneak in undetected. After all - she wasn't the Invisible Woman for nothing.

SUPERBOY: Jon felt like he didn't belong in there, before he left earth, he was a kid, so he didn't have much time to prepare, didn't have much experience, he felt like he didn't deserve to be in that room with those people that have been dealing with that life, with being a hero, for far long. He was practically hiding behind his dad, felt like he was a kid again, maybe going in there was a bad idea, "Maybe someone should shapeshift into an agent of Nova, is there any shapeshifters in here? It would be a good way to get more information," He knew it was a dangerous plan, but it was really the only thing he could think about, and he wanted to help. But he was hesitating, because like was mentioned, he was new to it all. He was self conscious, didn't want to sound stupid, as if he was a kid among the adults, as that was how he felt in a way, "Or maybe if there's any technology that can change my appearance, I could do it, I would be up for it," he wanted to do something, wanted to help, and he was willing to do anything to protect others, and to stop more people from getting hurt. 

STINGER: This right here was exactly what Cassie had dreamed of her whole life. Before her, there were a number of heroes she'd looked up to since she was a toddler. The Wonder Woman poster had hung on her bedroom wall for a solid decade before she'd been killed, and now here she was, right along with them. She wears her Stinger helmet proudly, aware that her boss was one of the men leading this meeting and, to her knowledge at least, definitely did not know an intern of his was here. Of course, she'd deal with that later. Cassie didn't let herself miss a word, and when Billy spoke, Stinger could be seen nodding emphatically beside him. When the suggestion of Wanda's powers came up, she clenched her fist as her side, torn between chiding the suggestion and defending Wanda. Still, she keeps quiet a few moments more, and has to stop herself from letting out a loud 'UNCLE TONY?!' as he walked in. Still, beneath her helmet, she's grinning as he walks in, and her eyes dart from Steve to Tony, relief her main thought for only a moment. "The X-Men should be here," she added simply, having no interest in repeating previous points other than to state her place, "and unless we want to take a stage with Magneto, we should avoid drastic and unplanned charges. No matter how much I'd love to get big, step on one of their facilities, and be done with it? Not gunna be that easy." she leans forward, her wings at her back shifting in her chair, "seems like the most obvious thing we need is information. It's real easy to eavesdrop when you're the size of a bug, just saying. I can leave mics and cameras in their ventilation if we can get around the security. It'll also give us a layout of where we hit. Which, brings up the question," Stinger turns her attention back to the two men leading,  "are there any thoughts of an actual plan, or should someone start writing suggestions down?"

BRUCE: As Bruce waited for everyone to say their piece, he was less than surprised by the responses he received from a good number of the participants. Some he knew well, like Zatanna, but her less than patient stance wasn’t unique. Action meant different things to different people. Few of them knew just how much action was being taken, under the radar, and if they did know, he wasn’t altogether convinced they would appreciate it. Knowing the opponent inside-out was integral. If they moved too quickly, they risked being surprised by the vast intel NOVA acquired over the years from their various connections. Having insiders in their organization certainly helped, but he also had to consider the possibility that NOVA was utilizing the exact same tactics. They had to be careful. He nodded wordlessly to Barbara’s input, frowning, but the atmosphere in the room darkened noticeably once the focus shifted to the X-Men. Loki’s suggestion made him raise a doubtful brow. It certainly warranted a response. “This is not Asgard and strength is not enough.” Wanda’s powers being tossed out as if they were free for exploitation made his eyes narrow and he shook his head. “As I said, the weapons they employ have the ability to render us powerless. We are not in the position to rely solely on powers of mutants, metahumans, or aliens. I understand that there are plenty of you who want to go in aggressively. Forcefully. I am telling you that it will not work. We will not win. Like all of you, I don’t want to see more people killed or hurt, but we must be smart about what we do next, or it will all be for nothing.”

He glanced at Steve and then at the others, frowning. “Cyclops is a close contact of mine and has been from the beginning. We are in constant communication. They will have a level of involvement in how we proceed, but the X-Men have always been their own entity. The invitation is there for them to join us, but I can’t say it will be accepted. Regardless, we can rely on them as allies. They do not condone the indiscriminate killing that happened at the NOVA facility. As of now, I can’t tell you what their roles will be. It is something we are currently discussing - but I do not need to tell you that their assistance will be valuable in unraveling NOVA’s operations.” He hesitated, his gaze briefly going to Wanda before he looked away again. “I understand some of you would, perhaps, side with Magneto. If that is the case, this might not be the place for you. As tempting as it is to think we can follow suit, NOVA is more prepared for that possibility now than ever before. Magneto has seen to that.”

It didn’t come natural to discuss his plans with others or tell what he knew. However, even he knew there was little choice now. “We need to understand their technology so we can disable it. I have possession of the inhibitor that targets mutants, but I need their new design. They have it well guarded. The Flash is right that the SCPD can no longer be used as a way to infiltrate NOVA. The two departments do not trust each other and that will not change. And Oracle is working day and night to break into NOVA's security systems, but she needs help. The encryption changes too often for her to maintain all she does without sleep. I need someone who is good with computers - or someone who can learn. Quickly. I am not willing to wait and see what the X-Men are willing to contribute. We need to start now. We have already started, though most of you may not know it.” Jon’s suggestion earned a rare smile and he nodded. “We already have someone who has successfully infiltrated NOVA, putting their own life at risk to better our intel. At present we have no need of another. It would only increase our risk of being discovered.” Shapeshifting and magic would do little if NOVA were successful in perfecting their newest power inhibitor. Bruce nodded at Bucky, his expression somber, “Exactly. And while it may look to many of you that we are sitting on our hands, nothing could be further from the truth. This will not be a fight with loud explosions. This organization is insidious. It is very connected with every part of Star City and its citizens, including us. Disabling their systems, cutting off their resources, and sabotaging their technology is how we win. We only move when they are at their most vulnerable."

The arrival of Tony Stark was unexpected and aggravating. Bruce waited until he took his seat. He was respectful enough not to interrupt Steve, either, and gave the two a moment before continuing as if there were no change. This time he addressed Cassie, approvingly. “We have planted devices in some of their facilities, but there are certain areas our informant does not yet have access to, specifically the lab where they are developing their newest technology. It is well guarded. You would be invaluable if you were able to take us inside. It is something we will discuss later.” Crossing his arms, his frown deepened as he looked over the crowd. “Our plan is to thoroughly understand an agency that is unlike any enemy we have ever faced. Brute force may destroy one building, or the ones we know of, but more agents will come. Their technology will survive. Their agenda will continue and be bolstered by any acts of violence. There will be a time for that, but this isn’t it. The agency needs to be exposed for what it is. Then, when we do make our move, there will not be more agents to take their place. It needs to be eradicated permanently, or the amount of people who suffer and die at their hand will only increase.” He paused. "But we are here to collaborate, so if anyone here has a better idea for an approach that will permanently rid Star City of NOVA, do not hesitate to share it."

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Steve looked at Loki, sighing before he moved to pinch at the bridge of his nose. "Wars aren't won with brute strength. I've fought several. I know how they work. Battles might be, but we aren't battling. We're at full-scale war with an enemy we don't understand. And we are taking steps. Scott Summers and I don't speak constantly, but he's a good man and he wants to protect his people as much as I do. We want people to be safe and we want NOVA gone, but they can't be mutually exclusive." He looked to his fellow leader before nodding in approval. "Batman is right. In this case, shock and awe will never work and they'll wipe out half our powers before we even get into the gate. Some of us might make it unaffected. Not all of us rely on powers. But with our numbers cut into less than half, where would we be?" Steve caught Bucky's eyes with a meaningful look, as if to say 'Please watch him. After all, he didn't care if Loki wanted to mock or belittle him. But he did care if he brought the meeting out of hand. As Bruce brought up tech, Steve looked pointedly at Tony. That was his bread and butter all day long. "We have a number of scientists and tech mavens in this city that I know would align with this cause. Red Robin and Oracle are working hard. Tony, could you put Stark resources on it too?" He looked to Bruce now, adding, "I wouldn't overlook the Wakandan embassy, by the way. Shuri isn't an Avenger, but she's been a loyal ally for a long time. They have tech in Wakanda that even surpasses what I've seen with Tony and Reed. It might be worth connecting the group of you to see if she can help."

Looking out to the assembled group, he finished with, "We want to eradicate this threat, but I again agree with Batman. We don't want to do it the way they expect us to. If we attack them head on like some of you suggest, we'll lose. It's a long game, and it's a hard one, but we saw what happened when Pete--Spider-Man attacked one of the NOVA agents. I don't believe that was his fault, but it escalated things." Steve's eyes found Bucky's again. "We don't know how it happened, or if NOVA was involved, but it's exactly the kind of thing Batman's talking about. A lot of you know that I've been on the side of punch first, questions later. I'll fully admit that. But it's not the answer here. We don't know what they have or what we're up against. We need your support in the long game. And we're asking for your trust in a lot of ways. I asked all of the Avengers personally to be here. You all agreed, so you must trust me, and I trust Batman and the Justice League. Trust like that, trust that we are all working towards the same goal, is gonna be imperative."

“If we’re getting insider information, the kind that can turn the public tide against NOVA, then we need to use it.” Clark didn’t ask for specifics. If Bruce or Steve had put someone inside NOVA, he had to trust that whatever information they produced would be legitimate. “We all saw at the riots that there’s still public support for NOVA, and more of it than any of us probably feel comfortable with. If we’re fighting a war, then we’re looking at more than one front, and the people are one of them. If we have something to erode their support, it needs to be disseminated, and we have contacts who can do it.” Him, namely, but he didn’t say so. He looked from his son beside him back up to Bruce at the head of the table. “Take it to Lois. We’ll be fighting twice as hard if there are still people convinced that NOVA are the good guys here.” The air of impatience around the table was palpable from some of the other people. He understood. In a way, he was with them. The long game that Bruce played and that they all had to play right then was frustrating, but their problem would be infinitely worse if they acted too soon and too rashly. “We have a lot of different strengths here, that I can see, and if this is going to work then we’ll play to all of them. But not at the same time.”

HAWKEYE: Clint was not built for meetings. There were way too many people in one room, all of whom had something to say. Clint, on the other hand, had nothing to say. He was a circus performer and a thief. This good guy shit and should they shouldn't they and rules nonsense was grating and more and more he was starting to feel closed in, like he didn't belong there, and that getting out was the best idea he ever had. If it hadn't been for Natasha's fingers tangled with his he would've been gone already, but she wanted him here and making her happy made him feel like less of a failure, so he wasn't going to run out. That didn't mean he had to keep listening though. Growing up a criminal circus meant Clint's legerdemain skills were very nearly flawless, and it wasn't too difficult for him to slip off one hearing aid while he was replacing the arrow he'd been playing with back in his quiver, and the other when he reached up to scratch at the closely shaved hair of his undercut. With both his aids out he couldn't hear anything, blissful silence wrapping around the archer. If, for some reason, someone was paying attention to him specifically there was a chance they'd catch the sleight of hand trick, but most of the table was looking at the caped brunet with the really nice chiseled jawline at the head of the table who was currently talking. There was a pretty damn good chance Natasha would notice since she was sitting right next to him, but he'd done his best to pick a moment when her attention was diverted. Reaching into a pocket of his uniform Clint let the aids drop from his palm as he pulled out a Peanut Butter & Chocolate Chip protein bar, unwrapped it with his teeth and one hand and then proceeded to take a bite.

FALCON: It was unfortunate that Sam didn't have much, if any, information to pass on to the rest of the team, but he was willing to help out wherever he was needed. This was a group effort if they were going to take this force down - it wasn't going to be easy, not by a long shot, but he trusted Steve. He'd followed him before, he'll do it again, even if they didn't necessarily have a concrete plan moving forward. Whoever their insider was, something needed to happen before things got worse. While Superman spoke (seriously, Superman), Sam took note of movement down his right. He shot Clint a look when he noticed he had a granola bar of some sort between his teeth. He had to press his lips together to keep from smiling too wide, but kept his attention on Superman instead, in the hopes that he could just ignore whatever it was that Clint was doing. Now really wasn't the time.

BLACK WIDOW: Natasha should have known that bringing Clint to this meeting was a mistake. But she had thought that he would want to be there because this was who they were. This was their family and even if Clint didn't remember that, he had expressed a desire to be with her for things. When she had come home from Moscow, he had seemed upset that she hadn't brought him. She knew he didn't know what was going on, but when they talked with Rachel, he was going to remember and, going forward, he was going to need this information. At least... she had thought so. And then she saw him take his hearing aids out. And just tune it all out like helping people didn't matter to him. Like trying to hear what was going on and understand or file questions away to ask her later wasn't important to him. Her stomach tightened and Natasha slipped her hand from his. Most people knew her to have a very level expression, but when her hand shot out to catch his face so he could see her clearly, the first look was just utterly devastated disappointment, and the second slipped that away like a mask went on and her eyes were cold as Siberia. Letting go of his face when she was sure he was looking at her, Natasha signed quickly. <<Go home, Clint. Just go. No point in being in a chair here if you don't care and if you don't want to be here. Go home and I'll be back after.>>

HAWKEYE: Clint was aware that slipping his aids and grabbing a snack wasn't exactly professional behaviour, but he'd at least been quiet about it, and now that he had put his arrow away and had nothing to fiddle with it was better to keep something in his hands, or he was going to start poking at the tablets in front of them and get really distracted in a way that would likely be more disruptive than his snack. There was a voice in the back of his mind suggesting he could try following along to what was being said and try to piece together the bigger picture, but that wasn't what he did. He might have been forty-eight physically, but without his memories and life experiences of the last twenty-five years he was basically a twenty-three year old carnie thief playing dress up. He was doing his best, for Natasha's sake, but, like most other things in life, he was pretty sure he was failing. The moment Natasha's hand slipped from his Clint already knew he fucked up. That knowledge was confirmed when his face was grabbed and turned in her direction and he saw her face. Aw, disappointment, no. Disappointment was even worse than if she'd gotten pissed at him. Disappointment took him straight back to being a kid hiding from a father's disappointment because it came along with a belt and fists. The rotten feeling settled in his stomach, Clint's lips turned down in a frown. Blue eyes watched her sign, and for a moment he considered insisting on staying, that he could give it another try and do it better. But this wasn't like mastering a new trick shot. He couldn't just do it over and over again until it was flawless. He didn't sign back, at least recognising that now was not the time to get into a discussion. Instead he just, as unobtrusively as possible, stood up, slipped between the chairs, and then was gone and out the door.

IRON MAN: Tony brushed off Steve’s words as if his presence were inconsequential and expected, even though he knew it was just the opposite. “I wanted to see Supes and the Big Scary Bat in person. Not to mention an actual goddess with a lasso.” He arched an eyebrow and nodded in the direction of the three. “Have to say I thought they’d be taller.” Steve’s offer to talk later was met with a dismissive nod and he rolled back and forth in his chair, his foot balanced on one of the table legs. The years he spent with the Avengers made him a better listener. Maybe it made him a better team player too, unless the idea was a bad one or could use some work, and he was quick to agree to Steve’s request for tech. Unlike the others, he didn’t know much about NOVA aside from what he’d seen at the riots. He was too distracted by other things that were going on. Pepper’s injury and Peter’s complete snap from reality took most of his attention these days. One of the main reasons he was here was because he hoped someone would have some damn insight on what happened at the protest. He watched some cell phone video a kid shot over and over again, but there was nothing he could pinpoint that should have set Pete off. Not that he could figure out, anyway, and it put him on edge.

It was news to him that the X-Men would want anything to do with whatever game plan they agreed on. Tony snorted softly. “So, you don’t have the X-Men fully on board yet. What happens if they start to see logic in Magneto’s ideas? Do you intend to trust them with all of this information if they aren’t technically working with us, if there even exists the possibility that they might do something not so Justice Avenging Leagueish with it?” He frowned, rubbing his mouth thoughtfully. “And if we’re going to send Stinger in and risk her safety inside an institute that has the power to eliminate her power, what then? What’s the contingency plan? What if she pops inside an air duct at the exact moment they’re testing their new inhibitor? Do we have an inhibitor for an inhibitor? Something to disrupt the frequencies? Can I get my hands on one of these things? I understand you just have one, but I’d like a good look at it.” Clint’s subtly went unnoticed by him at first, he was too caught up in the various possibilities and pitfalls of action, but when he realized, belatedly, what just happened, he couldn’t hold back a laugh. “Someone’s in the doghouse."

ZATANNA: Good lord, there were a lot of children here. She was used to that with Bruce, he seemed to have an affinity for finding damaged orphans and giving them the ability to punch their problems away. You'd think therapy would be cheaper, but hey, everyone did things differently. "You don't have to infiltrate to get more information on them. If you want a look at what they're doing and what they've got, I can do that, easy. I just need a mirror and ... don't worry about the rest, I'll deal with it." Handing Seymour, her sweet baby bunny, to Babs so she could sit up (she was a hand talker), she leaned forward on the table. "In terms of a plan, since brute force isn't an option, and I have to agree, even though setting everything on fire is very tempting, I think we need to separate this group into smaller groups. There's no way we're going to get shit done when 30 people have to sign off on it. Make an information team, a tech team, one who looks for human error, which is my specialty, and a team of people who don't have powers who can take over if any of us get inhibited. If everyone has a smaller goal, each piece comes together and forms a structure that holds the overall plan together. Like a spell." Leaning back, she grinned at Babs. "See, I can be helpful. Just cuz I'm an asshole doesn't mean I'm worthless." She spread her hands to show Bruce that she was trying and playing well with others. She also sent Loki a mental message that said "wanna play a game while the mortals argue over tech?"

STINGER: Cassie went from grinning under her helmet at Batman's approval, to heaving a sigh when Tony spoke and said her name. She doesn't even bother speaking at the moment, simply rolling her eyes dramatic enough to be seen with her helmet on, and drumming the tabletop with her fingers, suddenly remembering the stubbornness of the older Avengers. 

ORACLE: Barbara lets herself observe the mishmash of people, and can't help but wonder what they were in for. She lets out a soft 'oh' as the rabbit was placed in her lap, but she accepts, head tilting as she listened to her friend speak. Her face slides into an approving smirk. She chuckles just a little, "Sure Z, now be open to criticism, hmm?" she turns back to everyone after (gently) handing seymour back, "she's not wrong that smaller components will be easier. And Superman is right, we need to shift at least what some people think. If we have information that can do that, we should as soon as possible. It doesn't matter how much prep we do before we attack if no one likes us once we're done. Also, cutting public support means strangling their wallets." She turns to Tony Stark, eyes narrowing slightly, thoroughly unimpressed with his display so far, but ultimately she knows she has to work with him, "There are ways to disrupt the inhibitor, Magneto used a big ass EMP. Theoretically, we could replicate that. That also runs the risk of frying a lot of information we could use against them, so it's a work in progress," she finishes, giving him a nod, certainly not about to deny the help.

IRON MAN: Tony raised his eyebrows in response to Barbara. "There are ways to disrupt the X-Gene inhibitor, but no one has gotten their hands on this new, supposedly updated power inhibitor, isn't that right? Therefore, we don't know if it operates like its predecessor. NOVA strikes me as an agency that learns from its mistakes." He let his foot fall to the floor and sat up straighter in his chair. "Magneto used the EMP with the intention of destroying the facility. He was not hiding. We're talking about a reconnaissance mission, quite different, and an EMP attack wound announce our presence loud and clear. Any device Stinger manages to plant would be undoubtedly discovered - or, at the very least, they would know we compromised their security and we lose any chance of securing valuable intel. Or, as you rightly said, our own technology is damaged and rendered useless. Worst case scenario, they catch her." He paused. "And all that is if an EMP would even be effective against this.... new inhibitor, for lack of a better term. Inhibitor 2.0?" Shrugging, he took a drink of his coffee. "I don't know about you, but I don't risk lives over ifs. Before we send anyone in, we need to know exactly how it works - and if it works similarly to the X-Gene inhibitor, an EMP is not the solution. We can't just kill their technology and expect them not to notice. No, we need to block Stinger - and there's a very simple way we can accomplish that and protect our own equipment, without tipping off the Nazis. They'd never even know we were there. I'm talking about our own version of a faraday cage. A very tiny one."

WICCAN: “You can’t completely keep the X-Men in the dark,” Billy insisted at the mere implication. There were a dozen other things to respond to, but if he was going to advocate for something, he felt like that had to be the thing. The potential fallout of not doing it was too great, and the last thing they needed was the biggest gathering of mutants to somehow be against them right from the beginning. At least Bruce and Steve didn’t seem to be in line with Tony’s thinking, and he was a little bothered (but not surprised) by his mother leaning that way, too. Magneto’s involvement complicated everything, as always. That was all the more reason not to give him more ammunition. He raked his hand back through his hair. “What uh...what’s a faraday cage?” Should he know that? In a lot of ways, Billy was one of most powerful people in that room, but he was reminded constantly what his shortcomings were.

LOKI: Loki listened to the back and forth and felt himself beginning to fade in a lot of ways. He had said his piece, they had rejected it, and so he was content to just do what he had been doing. Though he had to laugh as several people brought up infiltration like it was some new concept he hadn’t implemented from his own creativity before he was ever officially an Avenger. “Infiltration. How novel. What an idea.” He smirked before sitting back. “But if you already have an inside man, I’m sure they’re simply waiting for the right time—and the perfect information—to accomplish what Lord Bulging Biceps—“ Loki gestured to Superman “—is saying we should do. Could you not charge said inside man with retrieving one of these precious inhibitors? Before blowing open the entire operation with the right words in the right ears?”

He was offering himself for more risk. He knew that. But he had just been promoted. And he was going to get those papers signed. He and Jihl Nabel were friendly—as friendly as one could be with a horrible creature of untold evil (he both respected her as a villain and was completely astounded by her)—and he was part of their science and development team already. “Since the typically Metal-suited imbecile seems so concerned with the girl’s safety, why divert more effort to adding an additional person, who might not understand the layout and the internal politics of the organization and would just be blindly looking around, and not simply use what you have?” He shook his head, pushing to his feet. Abruptly he teleported behind the girl in the helmet—that was her name, wasn’t it—and made a show of peering closer. “You’re quite thin, you know? Very little. How are you with hand to hand combat if you do get caught, like Stark says? You won’t have your powers, so all you’d have would be your natural Midgardian fortitude.” Even without his magic, Loki had trained with the his mother, the Valkyrie, and the Asgardian army for over a thousand years, his Jotun physiology and natural state outranked any Midgardian’s in stature, durability, and strength. They relied on powers, as did he, but he wouldn’t be much of a trickster if he only had one trick.

It seemed to him that the conversation was becoming a bit circular, and Loki was an expert tactician but only when he did have an equal seat at the table. He was under no illusions about that now. Well, he was always under illusions, but those were literal. Most of them didn’t trust him. And maybe they still wouldn’t even when it was revealed that he’d been a plant the entire time he’d been on Midgard, and he understood that Thanos had taken any and all credibility that he hadn’t lost for himself. So he had said his second piece and teleported back to his chair. Green eyes meet the Good Captain’s. “You didn’t ask me here personally, but I am at your disposal. I do hope you don’t waste me, but point me as you will.” He looked to Zatanna, an expression of amusement on his face. His fingers moved through the air subtly before the pen next to the redhead now playing with the rabbit turned into a large carrot. He smirked before replying mentally: What did you have in mind?

STINGER: The young blonde went from a facepalm to indignant when Tony and Oracle were going back and forth. She'd expected some protectiveness, but she figured they might get through maybe half a meeting before it started. It was Loki appearing behind her that made her stand, clenching her fist at her side and staring him down without any hesitation, but she lets him finish.  She didn't sit again even when Loki did, and her eyes turned, positively glaring at Tony "I wouldn't volunteer to go if I wasn't sure I could handle it. I've been one of the ones in the streets fighting the creeps, and you haven't seen what I can do yet," her eyes deliberately shift to Bruce now as she retakes her seat. The hand that's hidden under the table next to Billy is clenched, and if she didn't have her gloves on, her nails may have down a number on her palms. She echoes what Bruce said before, "we'll discuss later, including safeguards for crappy outcomes." she grows quiet again, silently fuming, but knowing any extreme outburst would just be taken as an excuse to further infantilize her. One thing she hadn't missed? The tightrope walk that young heroes always had to face while on a larger team.

IRON MAN: Tony stared at Loki with vague annoyance. “If that inside man were at all proficient, we would have it by now. I’m not sitting with my thumb in my ass waiting on him to drop it by at his convenience.” It was clear to him who the inside man was and he could think of no one more ill-suited than Loki, who was proving himself useless so far. “Coming from someone who can offer nothing productive to the conversation or offer their own solution, personal insults are the next best option.” He clicked his tongue. “Predictable, Poki. I’m disappointed in you. If you were paying any attention, you would realize your “concern” is misplaced and invalid. But I suppose I can’t fault you entirely - how old are you now? Oh, you don’t have to answer that. None of my business. I was just wondering if gods also decline with age. If so... well, I've been awfully insensitive. Please, someone pull up Wikipedia here for our friend so he can keep up with the conversation. And toss in a dictionary. Most of the words aren’t monosyllabic.” Tony winked at Loki, smirking. “That should keep you more occupied than a virgin in a strip club.” His expression softened when he looked at Cassie and he leaned across the table, his voice lowering and becoming uncharacteristically serious. “I know you can handle it, kid. I know exactly what you can handle. What I’m trying to do is give you the tools to get in there and get out undetected. No one in this room has the ability to evade a power inhibitor, aside from those of us without any power to start with. I’m not saying you shouldn’t go or that I don’t trust you to go, but I want all of the information first. I’d want that for anyone in this room."

Sitting back, he spread his hands and looked around the table. “Can we return to viable solutions? That seems to be what we’re interested in. Does anyone have access to the materials I’ll need to construct a faraday cage? Or… well, it should really be a pouch. That would be far more maneuverable.” At that point he recalled Billy’s question and shifted his gaze to him. “A faraday cage blocks electromagnetic fields, radiation and frequencies. It acts as a filter against those wavelengths and shields the interior of the cage. It also protects against EMPs. Whether or not this will be effective depends on this new power inhibitor, but it requires specific materials to construct. I don’t have them on hand, unfortunately. I can get them, but if anyone has them at the ready I’ll gladly take them off your hands. I’ll need… let’s see…” He tapped two fingers against his chin. “Shielding Fleece, make sure it’s HF+LF - oh, forget it. I’ll take care of the materials. The whole pouch thing more complicated, but better suited for this scenario."

FLASH: Barry listened intently to the arguments and pieces everyone had to say. When the conversation circled back to him, he opened his mouth – but closed it when the doors of the meeting room opened and someone else joined them. 

ROBIN: "Sorry, Flash, but this is important." Damian Wayne barged into the meeting area with a slight pant to his breath, collapsing his bo staff and stashing it on his utility belt. He been preoccupied with a little criminal apprehension that Bruce had sent him on – but it had taken him a little longer than expected when something interesting came up. Sure, Damian had radioed in to his father to let him know he was running late but he hadn't explained why. So the teen swept through the room, light dancing off his red and green kevlar. It was a moment before he finally lowered his hood. “I know I'm late, Batman.” He reported. “I thought this would be better to show everyone in person though.” He said bluntly before setting a small black camera onto the table in front of him. “I was in the process of dealing with Kite-Man like you asked when he mentioned having made cameras that got near the NOVA HQ. I took a moment to look and this...” He explained and gestured to the device he had brought in, “was captured by one of his cameras. It had an odd placement and when I found it – a very odd energy signature emanating from it.” Damian stated before finally eyeing the large gathering of mostly strangers he did not recognize. "Whatever it is, it isn't normal. You don't stash security cameras in awkward crevices where they can't really see people." He frowned and folded his arms before moving to take an actual seat at the first empty seat he could find - an empty seat; one so 'graciously' emptied by his Father's insistence on standing broodily. It was different, being a part of the 'Big Leagues' meetings instead of the younger teams for once. Damian wasn't sure whether or not he liked it - the amount of attention on the one speaking was intense.

HUMAN TORCH: “Smaller teams. That’s something. Not everybody is suited for every job, but at least the rest of us would know where we might come into place. It’s not like thirty people can be barging onto the scene to infiltrate and spy. If we’re just waiting our turn, at least we’d know who we were waiting with.” He returned the squeeze to Peter’s hand, trying to quell his own temper, because he was a hair away from snapping like Cassie had. The device suddenly laid on the table was a distraction, at least. Johnny could offer one thing about it immediately. “It’s producing heat. Like,” he leaned forward far enough to reach for the camera but didn’t actually touch it with his hand. He didn’t need to. “A lot of it, really fast, really contained.”

ZATANNA: "Look, I get that half of you are tech gods, but I don't really think the details of that are helpful right now. " Which wasn't just because Z had no idea what Tony was talking about. "You and Babs are now the heads of the tech team. You guys pick your squad like in gym class and go fight it out together about whose circuit board is bigger." She assumed large circuit boards were better but honestly had no clue. "And Loki is right, infiltration will be the most dangerous part. Sending in anyone who isn't absolutely prepared is stupid. I get that you're all young and invulnerable to the dangers of the world, but this shit is real. I've lost my magic before. You don't know what it's like to not have your power, it's like suddenly losing a limb. Either you train while inhibited and prove yourself, or the grownups get to keep you at home. It's not about who's smartest or has the shiniest suit, it's about who won't die if they only have a knife and their brain to work with. Bruce has to be in charge of infiltration and whatever he says, that's what we do." Z nodded at Bruce because, duh. Just as Barry was about to speak, probably too fast and technical for Z to understand, Damian almost literally popped in. He was babbling about a camera, which Johnny Storm (Z always remembered cute guys, especially ones who burst into flames) said was emanating heat. "Jesus, if it's hot, who knows what else it's putting out. Tcetorp sdleifecrof!" A glowing bubble went up around the thing. "That thing could have tracking stuff or be nuclear or have a fucking spell on it and you brought it here?" Staring at Damian like he was the dumbest person she'd ever seen on this planet of Earth, she slowly swivelled her chair to look at Bruce. "I didn't realize it was bring your kid to work day." She turned the computer mouse into a Damian doll and sent it flying through the air to Loki. "Anyone else wanna risk total exposure of our super secret attempts to overthrow an authoritarian regime? No?"

WONDER WOMAN: The atmosphere in the meeting room felt tense. Diana sat still, quiet, as she soaked in everyone's opinions on the matter at hand. While she had no intel to share, she did know where she was best suited and where her strengths laid. While she did remain silent for much of the conversation, looks and body language did not go amiss. She watched everyone closely; whatever it was that Bruce and Stinger had to discuss later on, she trusted them to know what they were talking about. She was a soldier, a warrior, through and through. A diplomat, first and foremost, but a spy? An infiltrator? She would leave that to Bruce. She trusted him enough for that. "Agreed," she nodded to Zatanna before glancing to her right at Bruce, "You are better suited in that department than most of us here. If you trust this inside man to deliver us results, then I will stand by it. But we need more information sooner than later; there will be worse to come than just riots. These people are worried, scared for their lives, and many still have not been able to recover from that destruction." Diana narrowed her eyes at the now contained device floating in the middle of the meeting room. "Why would a camera like that need to be hidden in such a way? Do you think it was there deliberately?" She asked, gaze now on Damian.

BATGIRL: Everyone around her might as well have been speaking a foreign language. She leaned in to get a better look at Damian’s camera he seemed so proud of, but it looked like a regular old camera to her. As much as she used to admire Zatanna, the tone she took with Damian made Steph bristle protectively. “Sure, training under Batman must mean he’s stupid enough not to check for tracking devices. Give him more credit than that. All you’ve done is order people around and feed a rabbit in your hat.” Steph sat with her arms crossed, frowning, and squirmed uncomfortably as she grew more and more aware of just how little she had to offer in the way of teams. Punch first and ask questions later was what she did. It was her thing. Pretty much her only thing. She started out at a disadvantage, but years of training made her hand to hand combat impressive (if she could say so herself), and now she couldn’t even use it? Sounded like some bullshit. Yeah, she got it, but it sucked to feel like a useless lump when she was supposed to be Batgirl. “So a tech team, a… spy/sleuthy team, a computer digital hackery team - or does that fall in the same category as tech? Actually that’d be more up your alley, Babs. Maybe you should head that up." Drumming her fingers on the table, she looked up at Bruce. "And during all this patrol is continuing as always, so we’d need a team for that, right? Can’t forget to watch the street while you guys go running around in faraway bags.”

SCARLET WITCH: Wanda watched the people around her as they reacted before feeling herself beginning to get frustrated at the antics. Shaking her head, she sat up, her dark eyes flashing. "I think the irreverence--" She glanced to Loki, Zatanna, and Tony, who she admired for their bluntness but felt herself getting irritated with in this large setting, "--isn't getting us anywhere, for one. I think it's safe to assume that Steve and Bruce won't be underusing anyone. If they didn't have a need for each of us, they wouldn't have requested our presence." Her expression softened as she looked at Johnny and Peter, Steph, and those who were simply trying to determine their place. "Steph is right. While we are making large moves in subtle ways, there are still atrocities going on every day. And there's danger all over the city. Those with more martial skill can certainly keep people protected on patrols and it's not a lesser job. It's just as important." Her gaze turned to her son now. "I don't think we're going to exclude them, bubbi," she told him, her love name for him slipping out without her realizing it. "None of us want that. Tony's saying that if we don't know what they believe and where they stand, that it's dangerous to expect them to react in any way. He's not wrong, but no one is going to keep them in the dark." And if they were, Wanda wouldn't be comfortable with it. Her attention turned outward. "I know Magneto is a risk. He always is." He always had to make everything more complicated with his black and white inability to realize that he didn't deserve to play god just because it was the fastest way to help or get his point across. "But I think that Bruce and Steve's decision to speak to Scott solidifies that the X-Men will be involved, and we can trust that information will be disseminated to them and exchanged between us."

She hoped that put that concern to rest, because they could keep dwelling on the same three points, but they would be here all night. Clint had already demonstrated that that wasn't going to work for some people. She glanced to Tony, "For your cage, perhaps you can talk to Shuri. I certainly don't think that we have anything like shielding fleece in our attic." She gave him a wry grin. Then Damian was barging in and there was a strange device and she swallowed before looking to Steve and Bruce. "Do you two think it's safe to say we've covered what we need to for the general group? As several people have pointed out, this isn't their expertise. I assume this object needs to be studied. I don't want to adjourn your meeting for you, but I think that, with this new discovery, we might do well to start to close it up?" Her expression to Bruce was gentle, supportive. She hoped he didn't see her question as disinterest or otherwise something to say that the meeting wasn't important anymore, but she wanted people to be able to crack into this new focal point and she trusted that new information would be shared by Bruce and Steve as they obtained it.

BOOSTER GOLD: "I'm down with keeping up patrol. I've got NOVA's patrol sched down tight for the north side of the city, so if anyone wants that, let me know. I can have my bro Skeets send it via email; he's got built in Wi-Fi and it's like, crazy fast." Even though he was a little disappointed that he couldn't offer much else, Michael was glad that things were happening. Finally. It felt good to be part of a team again, even if he was reduced to patrol. Still, he could fly, so it made sense he stick with that. Skeets might be a little smarter in the technology department, especially that of the twenty-first century, but Michael wasn't going to pretend to know anything about what they all were talking about. "But if you guys need me anywhere else, I'm cool with that, too. Just say the word, I'm there." He threw up a gesture, thumb and pinky outstretched and he shot a quick grin before he settled back into his seat with elbows on the table.(edited)

BUCKY: The whole display with Clint and the expression on Natasha’s face had him briefly distracted from all the rest. He was there for Steve, first and foremost, and to help where he could, but his attention was quickly pulled in other directions. Wordlessly, he reached with his right hand beneath the table and laid it against her knee, neither looking at her or acknowledging what had happened. A fucking protein bar. Really? He was sincerely, deeply trying to be sympathetic to what was not an unfamiliar situation to him, but it only went so far. For better or for worse, Loki and Tony’s back and forth quickly had everyone looking elsewhere, and the revelation of NOVA’s device brought something else yet again. “I can help with patrol, but we’ve got a crew on this side,” he gestured at himself and nodded vaguely toward Natasha, “with a few decades of espionage and intelligence, for what it’s worth. I’ll be a little more inconspicuous than it looks right now.” Shuri’s upgrade to provide temporary camouflage for the cybernetic arm would see to that. “But I’ve never seen anything like that,” he gestured toward the camera on the table.”

SUPERGIRL: Even though Kara was only listening, she watched everyone at the table. She paid close attention. Some seemed to have good ideas, but others were bent on complaining on the lack of ideas - a frustration she could understand, but also found hypocritical and counterproductive. She wasn't a new member of the Justice League. She saw firsthand how difficult it was to lead people who didn't really want to be told what to do, or thought they knew best, but then did nothing but complain. The name-calling and demeaning behavior was upsetting and unnecessary. Wanda's kindness was a breath of fresh air. Kara smiled at her, hands clasped underneath the desk, but then she turned her attention to Bucky. "I can help with the espionage. Robin said the cameras are hidden in strange spaces no one would normally look...  not easily found, and unless NOVA has found a way to make their walls impenetrable to me, I'll be able to see through them." It was certainly a different sort of espionage, but having X-Ray vision came in handy when you were trying to find people - or things. "And I can see the electromagnetic spectrum. Thermal imaging will help me find the cameras, or even the location of the inhibitors." She paused. "But if the new ones also depower Kryptonians... I don't know, but it is worth a try. Perhaps the range is small and I won't have to get close enough for it to affect me."

SPIDERMAN: While Peter understood why he was being benched, he didn’t have to like it, not when he could be doing some good that the city desperately needed; regardless of how its people currently felt about him. Though as tempting as it was to do more than just remote work (if they would even allow him that), it would be stupid to go against Steve's and Bruce’s call, especially since they still didn’t know what was wrong with him. Of course, that wasn’t going to stop him from opening his mouth and offering himself anyway — “I’ve worked my way around a few security systems before; if Oracle needs a hand with that, I can always help out remotely... If that’s an option?” Knowing how overprotective some of them were, his offer would likely be shot down, but he had to try anyway, right? If he was going to be stuck behind four walls, at least stick him in front of a computer.

SUPERBOY: Despite the fact that he didn't have a lot of experience with being an adult, he was a hero before he left Earth. He could be a kid, but he was still good at it, so when they talked about doing patrols, he without thinking twice, offered himself to help, "I would love to help with patrolling. I do that a lot already, so it would be nothing new to me," every day, he went out and flew around the city, looking for someone that he could help. He wished there was more that he could do to help, but unfortunately, that was the only thing that he could do. It was already something he supposed, and better than nothing.

STINGER: Though it was hidden behind her helmet, Cassie's face softened as Tony spoke. She'd talk to him later certainly, but for now, she wasn't exactly raring to drag too much more attention to her. And, truly, had her attention not been completely engrossed by whatever it is Robin had just brought in, she would have rounded on the cranky magician lady, but as it was, Stinger didn't really think about it as she stood, shrunk, and let her wings carry her over to the device on the table. She tried to see things from her small angle, even behind the forcefield. She looks up at Johnny, "Hot enough to where it would hurt me if I could get in?" she crouches on the table, no more than a few inches tall, trying to get a look, "once we make sure that it's not recording us at all, and once we make sure that hotness isn't like.... energy getting ready to explode, I'd love to take a look. Nice find. But, uh--" she turns back to Zatanna, "this forcefield would potentially protect against an explosion, right?" and, as she's talking, takes flight in her tiny form and moves ever so slightly further away.

BATMAN: Bruce stood silently as Steve spoke. Before the meeting they had time to outline what it would be about, but it was impossible to anticipate the response they would receive. Regardless, Bruce was well versed in the abilities of everyone present, even the Avengers he never met. What gave them leverage in this partnership was the variety of strengths and expertise they had at their disposal. The only thing standing in the way was ego - and there was far too much of it in the first ten minutes. He didn’t fault the group for not seeing the value in a long game. They waited long enough for a plan of action and now they were being told they would have to wait even longer. Unfortunately, there was no way around it. It was just not that simple. Handing out tasks was something he discussed with Steve before the start of the meeting. Separating everyone into specific groups that played to their strengths was the best strategy. It certainly had a far higher chance of success than a full frontal attack, which was what some were oddly fixated on. “You might find temporary satisfaction in action, lethal or otherwise, but if that were the solution then NOVA would have been destroyed a long time ago. Captain America and I both recognize the value of infiltration, from various angles, and we simply do not have the time - or the ability - without you. You are here because we need your help, but it is your choice whether or not to go forward.”

Public perception was a tactic Bruce was well acquainted with after years of being in the spotlight and using the media to distort his image. He inclined his head in Clark’s direction, indicating his agreement. “The Gazette’s expose on the detention centers was the first real step in that direction. The public is largely influenced by what NOVA wants them to see. But there is more than one way. In this day and age, public shaming has incredible influence. Secret recordings that discredit an agency would go viral. It can be just as effective as journalism. Those of you on patrol will also be in charge of that - but be careful.The expose was successful because it did not distort or exaggerate the facts. Out messages can have the same impact on our peers as both Miss Lane and Mr Kent have with the media.” Clint’s strange behavior and subsequent exit earned a brief glance in Steve’s direction. Bruce said nothing, but they would be discussing it later. Long ago, he made a point of trusting Steve to decide who should and shouldn’t join the Avengers. This was the first time Bruce actually questioned his judgment. Even though personalities like Tony’s were abrasive and obnoxious, Bruce still recognized the point he was making and it was one he agreed with. “No one will be going into any facility until we are prepared. That includes having contingency plans in place.”

Zatanna and Tony’s back and forth made him consider if they should have employed a raise your hand if you have something to say protocol. While he’d hoped everyone would act like reasonable adults, he was especially disappointed in Zatanna because of their history. Their shared past was a close one and he gave her a look that, while on the outside appeared stern, was also a silent request for respect - if not for the group, then the integrity of the meeting. She was better than this. “That is exactly it, but you will not be making the decision of who is on what team, Zatanna.” Despite his frustration, he couldn’t help but be a little amused. As Barbara and Tony argued over the technology, he focused on Billy’s concerns for the X-Men. “Rest assured, Cyclops will be kept well-informed.” Trust didn’t come easily to Bruce and he didn’t fully trust many people, but that was something separate. He did trust certain people for certain tasks, and he knew Scott would not sabotage their efforts or use the information in a way that would hurt the team. They were all on the same side. With any luck, he could encourage them to help.

Not that he was looking forward to adding more strong personalities to the already contentious group. Loki and Tony’s back and forth was giving him a headache and Damian’s interruption was a welcome respite from the bickering. While he’d been in communication with him through an earpiece, Bruce had been given no explanation as to why Damian was late or what had happened. Troubled, he listened to his explanation with a frown. “Where was this building, Robin?” While he appreciated Zatanna’s support, he held up a hand in response to her surprisingly abrasive words, then shook his head gently at Cassie’s suggestion and turned the camera over in his hand. “There is no need. The heat is intense, as you said -“ He nodded at Johnny’s assessment. “But it is residual. It is slowing down. Cooling.” Producing a small tool from his belt, he opened it back up and saw that Damian already disabled its tracking device. Just as he taught him. It wouldn’t have mattered. The room was protected from being tracked just like the Batcave, but he kept that information to himself. “I assume you scanned it for explosives.” Not that he felt he needed to ask. Damian was well-trained, or Bruce never would have trusted him to be out on his own. Still, he retrieved his personal scanner (equipped with various systems, including computed tomography) to do another deep scan. “Hm. No trace of explosives. We need to do more research to know for certain what is producing the heat.”

Prior to the start of the meeting, Steve and Bruce both agreed who would be best suited to what task. It was a difficult endeavor, but there were solid reasons behind their choices and it wasn’t up to debate. “We are all infiltrating. The difference is the approach. Oracle, Red Robin, Human Torch, and Spiderman, you will coordinate a digital attack on NOVA’s systems and gain access to their files. The firewalls are nothing like I’ve ever seen before.” In any other situation he would not have placed Johnny in that category, because he had other, valuable strengths, but someone would have to keep an eye on Peter after what happened at the riots. He was the best option. Bruce reluctantly handed the camera to Tony. “Iron Man and Black Panther will focus on deconstructing NOVA’s technology. A device or a suit that will shield the wearer from inhibitors, while avoiding detection, would be invaluable to future missions. Our first order of business is to retrieve the new power inhibitor so we can find out how it works. Bucky, Supergirl, Stinger, Flash, Invisible Woman, and Black Widow will do reconnaissance on NOVA’s labs and various locations and formute a plan of entry. The new inhibitor will likely be guarded. Falcon, Loki, Booster, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Superman, Superboy, and Robin - you will be on the ground. Remember that part of your job is to discredit NOVA whenever you have the chance.

Record unnecessary force and hand it over to Oracle to distribute. It can’t be traced back to you. Be a powerful presence and be inspiring. There is a reason you are the group most visible to the public.” Of course, Clark would be doing much more with the Gazette, but Bruce was not going to divulge that. “Scarlet Witch, Wiccan, Zatanna, and Nightwing, your job is to locate all of NOVA’s hidden facilities so the reconnaissance team can get to work. Once you’ve done that, you will focus on the facilities that are detaining mutants. We already know there are more. After you assist the reconnaissance team you will go to District X and consult with Cyclops on how to proceed. I have no doubt he will be involved, or already has a plan in place. Offer your assistance." His expression and tone turned somber. "Scarlet Witch and Nightwing can prepare you for when the inhibitors get in your way. We face a real threat of mutants, metahumans, and aliens being stripped of their powers. Everyone needs to understand this and be prepared. Those of you who need to fine tune your hand to hand combat, Scarlet Witch and Nightwing are who to see.” They worked well with each other - and in this situation, that was vital. “I understand many of you are skilled in this area, but consider how much of that skill is reliant on strength and superhuman ability. Ask for help if you need it, or your pride will get someone killed.”

CAPTAIN AMERICA: Steve was watching his meeting, their meeting, start to fall apart. He knew how Tony was, he had anticipated how Loki was, but he didn't know Zatanna well. He didn't actually think she was trying to instigate, but he did think that it might come off that way. But there was nothing to be done about it now. What was said was said. Still... he had been waiting for this for such a long time. More than anything, Steve Rogers had wanted this meeting and he had seen all the potential it could hold. It was why he had barely let Bruce get the offer to work together and reform out of his mouth before he was agreeing. They were going to be amazing. All of them. He just needed them all to understand what they were doing had reason and rhyme for all of them. They were all essential. It was watching Clint of all people embarrass the Avengers, and embarrass Natasha that had Steve crestfallen. His expression reflected the redheaded assassin's utter disappointment as he watched Clint leave, knowing how that looked. He knew there were extenuating circumstances, but he also knew he was going to have to advocate for Clint and for the validity of his presence to Bruce now when Steve knew he was a good man and a great Avenger. He let out a slow breath, but didn't let his shoulders sag, even if he wanted to, but that expression of disappointment began to etch deeper as Tony was who he was and Loki was who he was, and Cassie seemed to get up in arms when no one was discrediting her. There were some who were focused and productive and wanted to be there. Steve could see them, but it was hard not to feel like the gaps between their teams were going to struggle to be bridged into a cohesive unit if they were picking at one another, protesting precautions and getting snippy about what they should be allowed to do, snapping at one another about nothing.

"Come on, guys," he finally said after Tony's second jibe at Loki, which thankfully wasn't followed up by a rebuttal. There was a distinct sigh in his voice as he did it, and he was about to say more when Robin burst in and set down another piece to this ridiculously intricate puzzle. At the very least, it would give them all something to focus on and get them back on track. Something tangible. He gave a gentle nod to Johnny, opening his mouth to say that they had that covered when Zatanna was suddenly speaking but then Diana was bringing it back to trust. The amorphous shifting of tones was hard to keep up with, so he simply waited his turn. Wanda beat him to addressing the concerns about the X-Men and seemingly putting them to sleep, which eliminated one more opposition. He held out a hand to Cassie to stop her. "Not yet, Stinger," he said to her firmly, not because she was a child or because he thought she was incapable or whatever had set her off. It was because they didn't know what that thing was and Zatanna's forcefield was keeping it contained and safe. "You'll get time to look at it when we figure out what the hell it is. Just..." He sighed again, grateful to Bruce for taking over and divvying up the roles they had discussed. It was helpful, he thought, to the people calling for action to know their tangible roles. And it showed that he and Bruce hadn't just been sitting by with nothing to discuss or say. It was their credibility and he hoped it convinced people to trust that he and Bruce did actually know what they were doing. He had led many of these people before and they had followed him. And even if most didn't know Bruce well, so many people knew Batman. He was undeniable. The support of Wonder Woman and Superman held sway too. He just needed them to trust.

So he listened to Bruce lay it all out before nodding. "Wanda can offer something else to those who are training that I think is an invaluable asset. These guy are developing ways to shut off our abilities. And I know that so many of us rely on those abilities. Without them, some of us feel powerless. But not having your abilities doesn't make you useless. Not a single person here is. So I would encourage that you all take advantage of trying to work with Nightwing for brush ups--we all can benefit from keeping in practice--but with Wanda using her powers to cancel yours out. Find where your weaknesses are without your powers and then train those muscles until they ache. She can show you what it will feel like to find yourself in a combat situation without anything but your body to help you. I don't know exactly how NOVA's inhibitors in this second batch are going to work--" though he was really hoping he didn't end up 5'4" with Scarlet Fever again, "--But while Tony and Shuri are working on ways to work around them even in the short term, we only have ourselves to rely on." He met the gaze of every single person in turn, just a brief flicker for some and a lingering look for others. Natasha, for her part, seemed shut off, her face blank. She was listening, he knew, but he worried what was going on behind that impassivity. It was something to be dealt with later. "We're strong even without the things that make us different from the rest of the world. We have special abilities, but we're people first. There are a hundred other mutants, metahumans, aliens, and all the rest in this city. We gathered you because, like Batman said, we all have a part to play. So let's put aside the 'me' and start working toward this goal as a cohesive unit."

SUPERMAN: Bruce, as always, had covered all conceivable fronts. That wasn’t surprising. If he didn’t believe him capable of doing that, Clark wouldn’t have been as insistent that the League needed to reform in the first place (with or without their new addition of Avengers). It had been tempting to get in the middle of the squabbling, which they didn’t have time for, but it ceased well enough on its own. He wasn’t there to play bouncer, but he was certainly willing to do it if necessary. Tony Stark seemed to know everything but how to exercise a modicum if respect, and Loki was much the same. Duly noted. Neither had made a stellar impression on him in their limited time on the floor. One glance at the device Damian had brought in let him know there were no explosives within. It wasn’t lead. He could see through the casing, but Zatanna and the others had leapt at it and saying so seemed futile. Besides, just because he could see into it didn’t mean he knew what he was looking at. “You’ll have me where you need me,” he affirmed once all the roles had been handed out. He’d end up where he wanted to be - a face people saw as familiar, someone they could count on, someone who could help. He still had so much lost ground to make up for.

BLACK WIDOW: Natasha was still so utterly embarrassed that she had to actually use her Red Room training not to belie how she was feeling. That slip in her expression, in front of many strangers had not been acceptable, and she had immediately compartmentalized it and put it away, her face completely impassive. James would know what she was doing, but the blood in her ears told her it wasn't working as well as it usually did. Clint was off, and his memories were gone... but she'd never remembered him being such a Мудак. Asshole. When he had saved her from the Red Room, they hadn't been so old. And he had been patient, gentle and good even when he had nothing contribute. When he didn't know what to say. He belonged on this team. He belonged fighting alongside them. And she had apparently been too optimistic to think that the very essence of being a good man would still be there under it all. It wasn't often that Natasha Romanoff miscalculated and she clamped down even harder to compensate. Her face was so blank that it might be unsettling, honestly, and her muscles were tense as she nodded with her assignment. The heat of James' hand registered thereafter and, if he were looking at her, he would see the barest twitch of the corner of her eye. As if she had been slapped or as if, were she anyone but Natasha, her eyes might be pooled with angry and embarrassed tears. "Understood," she replied, voice level and even in response to her assignment. She very nearly left it at that. But her green eyes flicked to Batman, and someone who knew the power of the barest shift in expression, she tensed her jaw visibly before adding, "Barton is compromised." She couldn't just say nothing, not with the look on Steve's face. But she wouldn't apologize or make excuses. "It will be dealt with." Her tone was direct, to the point. "It was my mistake."

ROBIN: Damian had remained seated in a scowling silence ever since arriving, letting everyone jump over the device he had brought forward. He shot a sharp glare in Zatanna's direction at her snide remark and curled his fists beneath his folded arms. “Better than a two-bit stage magician.” He remarked sharply, but was drawn from his thoughts as Bruce spoke up regarding the device. “Of course I checked it for tracking equipment and explosives. I'm not an amateur, Father...” He retorted with a frown. “The building was older...but Kite-Man seemed to think it was one of NOVA's headquarters for some reason when he explained what he was doing. It didn't really seem like somewhere a government agency would hideout though.”

As Bruce divided everyone onto their assigned teams, the teen couldn't help but crack a small smirk. “Patrol and street work? Good thing I'm always doing that anyway, isn't it?” He stated with a humph. He turned his attention momentarily to the woman 'Black Widow' and regarded her posture and stance. As a former assassin himself, he could discern the minute details in her demeanor. She was lethal, that much he could ascertain. He just wasn't sure how, or what connection she had to the man that had left their meeting. This meeting didn't seem like it had been going the greatest before he arrived.

Damian didn't know what to make of the circus show they had assembled. There was the usual crowd – Clark, Diana, Barry...his family, Zatanna and Michael. People he was familiar with. It was the other group of people he wasn't certain what to make of. This 'Captain America' seemed trustworthy enough, but the Scarlet Witch and Loki were questionable. His brow furrowed slightly at the sight of Peter Parker, having kept up with the riots extensively since they happened. Tony Stark had so much arrogance to him it was nauseating and he was glad that he wasn't going to have to be working with him or this 'Black Panther' on anything. He was equally glad though he hadn't been placed with Oracle and Tim. He was skilled with tech, but it was true he was better used on the streets. As for the others? He really didn't know what to make of them.

“The teams sound pretty solid, Father. Oracle can make sure everyone stays competent on her team...I'm sure the tech team is capable enough as well. Anything we can use against NOVA will be vital.. weapons especially, preferably throwable.” He eyed Tony before looking back at Bruce and settling back into the seat.

ZATANNA: Zatanna made an apologetic gesture in Wanda's direction. She would've sent up a flare that said, "I'm Sorry!" but she'd already been accused of being irreverent once, and it probably wouldn't help. This whole thing was just so not her bag. She didn't do tech, she didn't do groups, and she didn't do this many big personalities in one room. The truth was, she was tense. What if they all fucked up? What if she fucked up? She'd never been the weak link before. And she had all this ... she'd been angry for so long. Angry at Clark, angry at NOVA, angry at every government that had asked for her help and then turned around and claimed her very existence was a crime. It was a lot to process, so she just hadn't. She'd gone to Tokyo, toured Europe, returned to America in a shower of praise and demands for her performance, and parked herself in Star City to do - something, anything - but without a plan about exactly what that was. And now here they were, and she'd been so sure that SOMEONE would have a plan. Okay, more specifically, she'd been sure that Bruce would have a plan, and Clark would say yes and do it perfectly, Diana would have notes about the battle strategies, Barry would either babble or do something shocking and effective, and the others would all add their bits in and it would all just ... flow. But there were so many of them here, people she didn't know. And she'd spent so long away from these people. So here she was, being an asshole. Fuck. This was all Bruce's fault. If he hadn't looked at her like that, she wouldn't have gotten all introspective. "Never expected to, Wayne. I'm just the magical consultant."

Maybe she was a little harsh on Damian, but no one in this room seemed to appreciate the ways that magic could ruin their plans. and NOVA probably didn't use magic. Probably. Hopefully. "Laever ruoy sterces dna hsinab lla slleps nopu uoy!" Zatanna gathered glowing light within the forcefield before her spell was done. "I'm trying to be good, see? You know I'm shit at this stuff."

WICCAN: His concern about communication with the mutants was mostly quelled, and there wasn’t much he could do about it either way. With the way the teams were split up, he would have some say in it at least. Batman had said part of what they were doing was collaborating. Maybe it was naive of him to think that his presence and Wanda’s presence would be enough to ease his grandfather’s reaction (should there be one), but he hoped it was true. Either way, he said nothing more of it and only nodded his agreement with the assignment. He glanced sideways at his mother long enough to whisper, “Go team,” with a little spark of red, like a burst of tiny fireworks, from his fingertips.

ORACLE: In truth, Barbara tended to prefer working in smaller groups, especially when it came to strong personalities, but the need couldn't be ignored here. At the end of the day, everyone in this room wanted the same thing, and needed each other to achieve that. It's that thought that keeps her from responding harshly, "Theoretically, Stark. Nothing I say is going to happen without plenty of testing." she starts nodding slowly as she takes in his full idea and, quite suddenly, pulls her laptop out of her bag and sets it on her lap, beginning to compile research. It's her laptop that also hides a small smile at the outburst from the clearly younger hero. She had to resist calling out a wry been there, done that. She looks at Stark again over her glasses, about to say she was already on it, when Damian came in with a burst. She doesn't waste a moment, wheeling closer with the open laptop on her lap, "Nice, Robin," she smirks as she peers at the camera, eyes following it as it went. She shoots a look at Z, as well as at Steph, but her mind is working far too quickly about the camera. She manages to perk up, smile, and nod when she's mentioned. She'll take the help gladly, and she even makes a note to ask Steph if she wants to help more, later. She's also intrigued by the shrinking she saw, and her mind trailed off to the best resources to research Pym Particles. However, Bruce speaking caught her attention with a minute smile, satisfied that he brought the order they very clearly needed as a group. As he finished and others chimed in, she resolutely pressed a key that sent her contact to everyone.

"You should all have just recieved my secure contact. Some of you know Oracle, but for those that don't? Use me as a resource. I have eyes all over this city. If you're in a sticky situation and need an escape, I'll get you out. If you're outnumbered, I'll send backup. If you think there's even a remote possibility your tech may be compromised, better to be safe than sorry.  I'm your eyes and ears when you need to see and hear further than you physically can. Don't be cocky out there, use your resources." she pauses only long enough to sweep her eyes around, "You'll all get a device to communicate securely with the whole team within 48 hours. In the mean time, I'll route any contact needed. And finally-- like Batman said, don't underestimate the value of videos at the moment. We can do a lot of damage to their relationship with society before we ever touch them, if we're smart about it, so let's be smart."

LOKI: He hadn't really been trying to instigate anything, though that was naturally the way he tended to communicate in order to get any sort of recognition. Annoyance was better than being ignored when he was right. Loki had grown up on Asgard, always right but never loud enough about it, always trying to help but disregarded as Odin's second son and the one that would never chosen for king in spite of his rampant qualification and dedication to emulating the Allfather to the best of his ability. He had learned very quickly that the councilor in him got him next to nowhere. But the spirit of what he had said, in spite of its antagonism, was that that girl was young, small, and unsafe at NOVA, which no one would know better than he did considering he spent every day there watching the kinds of things that could be done to her. Hand to hand was precisely what needed to be worked on. Combat training. But his point, it seemed, was lost the moment that Stark elected start speaking again. "My concern matches yours." He shot back. "How dare I question the survivability of a Midgardian woman I don't know well? If you were listening, Stark, which I suspect not considering the only sound you seem to enjoy is your own voice--" Something he didn't fault Tony for, as the same could be said for Loki himself, "--I was within the realm of agreeing. But, once again, I lack the understanding as to why you would put in a second insider when you yourself just brought up the risks to this girl's person without your 'faraday cage'." How should he know what the whelp was capable of? He saw a girl with powers. Take them away, what did she have? He didn't know, which was why he had asked.

The boy's entrance distracted him and he looked down at the device. He had seen similar parts at NOVA, but he didn't know precisely what this device did. He had only been there six months so his clearance level wasn't quite high enough. Still, when it was announced that it gave of a significant amount of heat, Loki blanched, mind jumping over to his last poignant memories of heat. "How much heat...?" he asked the one who had assessed it. Loki could and did still function under and after heat torture, but it put everything under duress for him. Needless to say, it made him a little uneasy. Thankfully, the doll that landed in front of him was enough to distract him, though not without him smirking at Zatanna's use of magic. He hadn't needed incants since he was a child. Still, he shook his head; it was powerful enough, he thought. His attention turned to the doll and, with a wave of his hand, he had it looking like Stark and he very nearly considered blowing it up, but he was capable of acting like an adult, unlike the newly departed Barton, who hadn't been half so... spirited when Loki had worked with him eight years ago. Maybe he'd changed. What was interesting was the female spider's response. He remembered taunting her back then about love. He'd thought it was 'for children', according to her. Perhaps not. Ultimately, he elected to quiet himself. He had his job. He made his contributions and he'd solidify himself as invaluable the longer he risked himself to bring the right information forward. He would just have to wait until then to prove himself. He did hope the Scarlet Witch was right and the meeting would come to a close soon. As enthusiastic as some seemed to be, it was going to start to drag on. To Zatanna, he spoke mentally again: Exceedingly testy bunch, this group. Is it not?

IRON MAN: Holy hell, was he still talking? Tony was too transfixed on the device in his hands to pay any service to hot air and useless arguments. "Don't care," he said dismissively, giving a wave of two fingers. He did stop his inspection enough to check his phone and save Oracle as a quick dial. "Catchy name."

NIGHTWING: "Get it together," Dick snapped, and even though he wasn't directing the words at anyone specific, it was obvious which people he was addressing. "This is a team and we have to work like one, or this is just going to fall apart. You've all worked on teams before, this shouldn't be news to you." It angered him to hear heartfelt speeches from both Clark and Steve, men he admired, and then see them be met with disrespect. He knew how difficult it was to lead a team and how little appreciation was given for doing it. "We're on it," he said to Bruce, unable to help a grin at Billy's fireworks even though he only saw them out of the corner of his eye. "I'll probably be asking you to do that again later. We're in dire need of some positivity around here.”

FLASH: Finally there was some plans being set into motion. Barry listened quietly as the talk about the camera and teams went on and on. Once things started to be ironed out, he grinned to himself and was on his feet - zipping to and fro between different people and leaning on their shoulders as he spoke a little and was gone again to someone else. "I think these teams are great. It's just nice to finally have a group to rely on again - and it'll be nice to have Oracle in our ears once more. It's been kind of lonely out there." He grinned. He zipped to Damian for a quick hair-ruffle and 'Good job kid' before he was back in his seat and straightening himself. "Sorry, I'm good now. You know me, sitting too long gets me pent up." He remarked with a sheepish grin on his face. It was obvious where Wally got a lot of his quirks from when you looked at Barry's antics sometimes.

HUMAN TORCH: Johnny offered no more verbal feedback. He had absolutely no place on the team he’d been put on. What the hell was he going to be able to do to help with the tech side of anything? He sat back in his seat and ran his hand along his jaw, casting a brief, defeated look at his sister. Maybe the Avengers had been a mistake. If Reed and Ben were there...maybe it’d be different.

BATGIRL: Okay, so maybe being put on ground patrol made sense, especially because Steph had every version of social media that existed. She already had a few ideas of how to shame NOVA and start a flame campaign against them. She knew how those things worked. Still, it stung a little that she wasn't asked to help train anyone in martial arts when that was literally what she did for a living. There was no denying that Dick was more skilled, but it would have been nice if Bruce asked her to help out too. But she didn't say anything about it. Even now, she wasn't sure if Bruce fully respected her - and it was something she still, years later, desperately wanted. But it meant something that she was here. There was a reason he asked her to be part of this new Justice Avenging team, or whatever it was, and she was determined to prove that she could be trusted and relied upon. "Anything else we need to cover? Because I can't stop thinking about those doughnuts someone left on the table. And I call dibs on the one with the rainbow sprinkles."

SCARLET WITCH: Wanda hadn't even considered that they might want her to use her powers that way. She could fight, but even that training had come from Steve. Surely there were better martial fighters. But when Steve spoke, it clicked. Because Wanda could do that. And she knew what it was like to train without the use of her powers because Steve had taught her to do just that when she had first joined the Avengers. It had been invaluable. She nodded to Steve, her own power running over her palms before she looked at her son with a gentle smile before catching Kara looking at her and returning that smile as well. Her expression remained for a moment longer before she turned to look at Bruce once more, the barest hint of gratitude showing on her face. She was an Avenger because she'd always been an Avenger, but many of the other people in this room didn't know her and wouldn't understand the complexity of her history. They'd see her as a liability. And they might be right, but she worked constantly to overcome that. And she knew that Steve already trusted her. But for some reason, Bruce had extended it to her enough to care about her in spite of what she had done. She knew Bruce Wayne well enough to know that trust didn't come easily to him. Wanda cared about him deeply, but more than that... he could see past the things she'd done to not only care about her as a woman, but still as a hero as well. He trusted her enough to put her with his son to help on a tangible level which embraced her powers rather than fearing them. She was so sick of being feared or feeling used. It mattered to her. She could feel Bruce's youngest son's eyes on her, and she turned to meet them, unabashed in doing so. She didn't know that she trusted that child, but she didn't question his presence if Bruce was here. Still, she didn't like the look behind his eyes even if his face was mostly impassive, so she found herself looking away. "I'll be happy to help anyone who needs me," she agreed with Steve.

BOOSTER GOLD: Michael was ecstatic. He was put onto a team with both Wonder Woman and Superman - how much better could it get? (Well, adding Bats would have been that little cherry on top, but two out of three wasn't bad.) He shot Clark a few finger guns, already thinking about all the PR he'd get from being out on the streets; all that air time, not to mention Goldstar and his good looks, could be a valuable platform to help discredit NOVA. All he needed was Skeets to help hash out the details. If all else failed, people liked money? (And disappoint Superman? Okay, maybe not bribery.)

SPIDERMAN: It really surprised Peter to hear that they were sticking Johnny with him and the rest of the computer geeks. As much as he enjoyed spending practically all of his time with him, he knew that Johnny was better suited out in the city. He had a face everyone recognized and loved, so sticking him with patrol seemed to be the only logical choice; he wouldn't question it now, though, not when there had been so much negativity in the group to begin with. He'd rather not add more wood to the fire. Still, Peter was glad he was able to help where he could, even if it meant he was still stuck inside.

SUPERGIRL: The only person Kara knew on her team was Barry, because of their previous work with the Justice League, and she wondered what her new teammates would be like and what the breadth of their skills were. What she knew was limited, although Invisible Woman was pretty self explanatory, and Stinger already made it clear what she was capable of. It was exciting and a little intimidating to work with others she never even met before. She gave a little wave at Bucky and Black Widow since they were across from her, then smiled at Cassie and Susan at the other end of the table. She could introduce herself later.

INVISIBLE WOMAN: Susan felt for Johnny - she really did, and while there had to be a good reason as to why they'd stick him on that team, she wasn't going to dwell on it. Instead, she offered him a sympathetic look of her own before her eyes caught the wave that Supergirl threw in James and Natasha's direction. She returned the smile given, grateful that their group seemed to be made of capable, level-headed people (hopefully, none of them made her regret that assessment); there was a nervousness there, if only because it had been too long since she'd been a part of anything like this, but the excitement to be working with a team again seemed to trump that.

SUPERBOY: Despite the fact that the reason why they would be working was worrying, he was actually pretty excited about it. It would be his first mision as an adult, and would be nice to finally be taken seriously, differently from how things were before and how he was seen just as a kid. He was one, but he was not useless. "I don't think so? I think that was all," he nodded, "I definitely agree with you, I could use some of those donuts right now," he told Steph, he couldn't think about anything else, they already thought about everything, but since he was not used to it all, he could be missing something. Which he doubted he was, despite his lack of experience, everyone seemed to be ready to leave already. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA: With everything assigned and everyone seemingly amenable to their roles--no one had really protested, though Steve did regret one or two placements but understood their necessity--it seemed as if the meeting had ultimately been a success. There were ultimately people that he wanted to talk more with, and some people for whom he wanted contingencies put into place. But, for the most part, this was an active plan with active positions and jobs for everyone. He was going to be busy, finally, doing what he was meant to be doing alongside someone who was absolutely brilliant at what he did. Steve had only collaborated with Bruce a few times so far, but it seemed to fit. He trusted Bruce's tactical skills, and Bruce seemed to trust him enough to take what he said into consideration. And as a result, they were finally going to accomplish what they should have done years ago. Of everyone in this room, all of them but two had been opposed to the ban. Tony had been... complicated, but he was here now and Steve knew where his allegiances lie. He didn't know Clark well, but he knew that Superman had been in support. It had been mindboggling to him, but maybe one day he would ask about it. It didn't matter now, though. What did matter was that they were all here, joined for this one purpose. There was still work to be done. That much was clear from the way Natasha spoke. Steve looked to Bucky, but there was nothing to be done about it in the middle of this room. He'd talk to him about it later. But for now, it seemed like a good time to close it up.

Getting to his feet, Steve took in the shield on the table a genuine smile pulled at his lips. "I think we all know what we have to do. Batman and I will keep up with all the teams and make sure that information gets disseminated where it needs to go as we receive it. Feel free to reach out with suggestions, new developments, anything. But I just want to thank you all for trusting. We're taking back this city. Every last one of us. And when it comes time, all the work we're doing now is going to pay off." He looked around at the group before giving a final, firm nod. "So let's get to it."

[blackswaneuroparedux]

The military salute

So I was having dinner with a dear American friend who I have mentioned before in a previous post on the British evacuation of Dunkirk I think. He was Exeter and Harvard educated before a stint in the US Marines Corps and now living and working in Paris. As always we get into interesting diversionary conversations about our comparative military experience. Somehow the issue of saluting came up.

He said that when he was growing up he was always told by family that showing the palm is a sign of subordination and submissiveness, and that only a military who has lost a war salutes with palm up. So he was surprised the first time when he received a salute from a passing British army soldier at some military event.

This is obviously untrue but it’s a mystery how that view persisted.

It’s true that both Britain and the US salute differently as do other nations. A soldier will never notice the way he salutes to a superior officer or on formal occasions (like raising the flag) until he/she were thrown in with other officers and soldiers of other allied countries to see the differences.

The origin of the military salute

As with many protocols, there’s a secret language to the salute and different expressions of the act of saluting. At the very basis of the salute is something worth pondering at a time when the public debate is trying to sort out what kind of accommodations ought to be made at citizenship ceremonies.

The salute is thought to have originated as a method of demonstrating benign intention. The story goes that public officials in ancient Rome required people approaching them for an audience to raise their right hand to show that they weren’t concealing a weapon. I would imagine it was a field day for left-handed assassins.

The truth is the origin of the military salute is uncertain.

A possible explanation has its origin in the Middle Ages, 

Knights adopted a method of assuring other travellers that they meant them no harm. This assurance was transmitted by the raising of the visor on a helmet. Typically, the right hand would rise and lift the metal shield so that the face could be viewed. The right hand was used as it demonstrated that the weapon hand was engaged; the left hand was occupied holding the reins. In time, visors would be modified to have a small metal projection that could be easily lifted to effect this salutation.

This practice evolved to become what we know as the salute: Salute derives from both the Middle English and Old French meaning respectful greeting. You were, in essence, showing yourself.

The simple act of saying, “Hey, it’s just me; nothing to worry about here,” became the way that people in official capacities acknowledged one another. The military adopted salutes as a method of conveying respect and order. Each country found its own unique expression of this message.

However there is a drawback to having this explanation is that if the military salute had a medieval origin, it would have been used to a greater or lesser extent for centuries, but the reality is that it is a rather recent salute, which extended into the Contemporary Age.

Another explanation, more likely, points out that centuries ago there was a habit of saluting a superior by raising his hat. In the 18th Century the ordinances of the British Army suppressed the obligation to uncover the head to greet a superior. Instead, the custom of grabbing the end of the hat was established as if one were to remove the hat, a gesture that would have given rise to the military salute we know today.

Perhaps that explains a detail: as a general rule, in almost all armies, soldiers are exempt from military salutes if they do not wear any headgear. a British order book from 1745 dictates “men are ordered not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or to speak to them, but only to clap up their hands and bow as they pass.”

The two main types of military salutes

Currently, and with a few exceptions that I will point out below, in the world military salutes are divided into two main types: with the palm down and with the palm forward. The salute with the palm down consists of raising the arm leaving it at right angles to the body, then stretching the forearm toward the right temple, with the hand extended and the palm of the hand facing the ground.

This salute is the one used in the armed forces of the USA, Russia, China, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland, Turkey and practically all the countries of Central and Eastern Europe and in all the countries of Central and South America, and also in the naval forces of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and others.

The other most usual military salute is with the palm in front. The procedure is the same as with the palm down, with the difference that in this case the palm of the hand is left facing the front and perpendicular to the ground. This military salute is used in France (where it is called “raquette”) and in many of its former colonies. The open palm salute is more identifiable in the public imagination (thank you Hollywood) with the armies and air forces of Britain and the Commonwealth countries including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and other ex-colonies.

The origin of the American armed forces

According to the Armed Forces History Museum, today’s standard salute  - right hand touching the brim of the head cover with the palm down  - was in place by 1820. The museum says the palm down portion of the salute may have been influenced by the salute style of the British Royal Navy at the time.

Why did the Americans follow the British Royal Navy? The US copied the British naval salute because they would more commonly encounter the British navy than the British army. So that's the one that got copied; thus the prevalence of palm down salute in the American military.

The origin of the different salutes in the British armed forces

Already stated above, in the United Kingdom and in the Commonwealth countries the two salutes are used: with the palm down in the case of the Royal Navy, and with the palm in front in the rest of the army and Royal Air Force.

What is this about? 

There is an anecdote that could explain it: on one occasion Queen Victoria visited a warship and a sailor greeted her with his palm in front, his hand rather dirty. The Queen had then decreed that the crew salute with the palm down, because by the work of the ships, it was more frequent that the sailors had their dirty hands and it was bad to salute like that.

The Polish military salute with two fingers

One of the most peculiar military salutes is the Polish, known there as “salutowanie dwoma palcami”, that is, salute with two fingers. The name is because the salute is done as in other nations, but extending only the index finger and the middle, and bending the ring finger and little finger, closing them with the thumb.

The Polish salute has another peculiarity: the main purpose of the salute is to point out the white eagle, the national emblem of Poland, which is why Polish soldiers always wear the eagle in their headwear – with some exceptions – on the front in the center, even when wearing a beret. Currently, the Polish salute is done like French, that is, with the palm facing forward.

Perhaps the custom of saluting with the palm to the front extended in the Polish Army because many soldiers of that country ended up fighting framed first in the French Army and then in the British.

Incidentally, the Polish two-finger salute caused some complaints of British officers during the Second World War, as they considered it a lack of respect, as he thought that the Poles were giving them the Boy Scout salute (which is identical to the Polish, but extending three fingers instead of two). For this reason, the Polish soldiers in the British Army used to make the British salute with the palm in front, at least in the presence of British officers.

The origin of the Polish salute is as uncertain as the rest of the military salutes. The most common legend in Poland locates its origin in the Napoleonic Wars, when a military courier was hit by shrapnel, in spite of which he fulfilled his mission and when arriving before Prince Józef Poniatowski, he greeted him with the three remaining fingers of the hand, dying later. Poniatowski, admired by the bravery of the soldier, would have adopted the military salute for the Polish forces. However, other sources indicate that the salute did not appear until 1863 and would be of Russian origin, being adopted by Marshal Józef Piłsudski after the recovery of Polish independence in 1918, at which time the two-finger salute was made official.

The Albanian chopping salute

Known as the Zogist Salute. King Zog the First of Albania came up with a salute that is executed by placing your hand over your heart with your palm down with a sort of chopping motion.

The Zogist salute is big in Mexico and South America. Our RCMP salute in the manner of the British military, with the palm forward. In Germany, the reviled “heil Hitler” straight-arm salute can land you in jail for up to three years under their current criminal code. Rising from the fact that so many pilots were trained in the air force, airline ground crew tend to salute the pilots of outgoing flights.

Saluting tradition

There are so many ways of communicating via gestures enshrined in tradition: the handshake, the tip of the hat — all intended as acts of friendship. None of the salutes imply obeisance; each is designed to convey respect. In the British tradition, a salute isn’t for the individual but acknowledges the royal commission of the individual: it’s the job, and not the person, who’s being saluted. And the respect is always reciprocated with the salute being returned.

There’s more in a salute than you might think. Their initial impulse was to offset trepidation and inspire confidence; literally and figuratively, to disarm. The gesture went on to indicate respect everywhere from service people at arms and even the Boy Scouts. But the convention of showing oneself to defray concern and offer assurance is genuine and ancient and widespread. There is something in us that wants to see the hand and the face.

[arcticdementor]

Back in 2019, a black man named Dana Holcomb sued American Airlines after being kicked off a flight. He had an allergic reaction after a white woman with an emotional support dog was seated next to him.

The facts of the case are then disputed. The airline alleges that the woman with the emotional support dog offered to switch seats with another passenger in the first class cabin where they were seated but that Holcomb refused (as he well might have, since an allergic reaction is not necessarily resolved by the dog moving a few seats away in the same cabin). Holcomb's own statement to the press claimed that no other passenger in the first-class cabin was willing to switch seats with the woman, which suggests that he would have been willing to accept that solution if someone had been willing to offer it. The airline's statement to the press alleges that the crew offered to reseat Holcomb in coach and refund the difference between the tickets, but that Holcomb became confrontational. The company claims that only after exhausting the available fixes did the crew remove the uncooperative customer from the flight, offering to rebook him on another or refund his ticket. Holcomb denies that he became confrontational.

Holcomb's lawyer insisted that the principle of selection must have been, consciously or unconsciously, the race of the parties to the dispute, making his client a victim of racial discrimination. The airline maintained that in fact the white women with the emotional support dog is a member of the relevant protected class under federal law here and that they were merely following the law when they allowed her claim to emotional support to trump his claim to travel free from allergens. The headlines in various national media outlets repeated his lawyer's characterization of the event as one in which an a black man was “Kicked Off A Flight 'So A Dog Could Fly First Class'

…

Until this year, the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986 prohibited discrimination on the basis of disability for air travel. This legislative mandate was then turned into a rule by the Department of Transportation that included protection of emotional disability, including the remedy prescribed by doctors, who designate "emotional support animals" as a category distinct from mere "pet." Large pets have to fly in the cargo hold and their owners must pay a fee. Emotional Support Animals fly for free on their owner's laps. (Small, unobtrusive dogs that fit into a bag small enough to fit comfortably under the seat fly with their owners for a fee .) The Fair Housing Act entitles owners of ESA's to live with their pets even in buildings that prohibit them. But profit-seeking entrepreneurs within the medical and legal industries have colluded with conscious abusers of the system seeking to exploit the law.

Writing in the New Yorker in 2014, Patricia Marx described how she obtained a letter from a clinical social worker attesting to her need for an emotional support snake:

"To prepare for the session, I concocted a harrowing backstory: When I was six, I fell into a pond and almost drowned. There was a snake in the water that I grabbed on to just before I was rescued by my father, and, ever since, I’d found comfort in scaly vertebrates."

She obtains her letter and registers her animal as an emotional support animal on a privately maintained online registry with no relationship to the US government and no legal standing or force and uses the letter and the registry to take her snake to dine at Balthazar and to watch a film at the Angelika.

…

That we allowed the proliferation of emotional support animals in the first place tells us a lot about the evolving nature of the civil rights industry. A network of activists, judges, and legal academics created the conceptual basis for identifying new categories of injury, all deriving their ultimate power from the landmark legislation required to dismantle legalized segregation in America. A network of trial lawyers and medical entrepreneurs found a profitable niche in colluding with a growing number of Americans regarding themselves through the prism of victimhood that happens to confer legally protected status onto them. In the process, these networks constituted themselves as an interest group.

Over time, they grew powerful enough to cannibalize the very people for whose benefit the system was inaugurated in the first place: thus, Black Man Kicked Off Plane So That Dog Gets to Fly First Class.

…

On the one hand, this is an easy case. Pushing back on the self-serving melodrama of entitled white people wielding recently manufactured identities as "disabled folks" granted to them by credentialed charlatans is still possible. The airlines summoned up public support, petitioned the federal agencies that regulate them, and persuaded them to initiate a change that any sensible person should regard as self-evident.

On the other hand, the logic of Conlon’s legal argument is impeccable.

Courts and bureaucracies depend on the integrity of clinicians to define illness, who in turn derive their authority from the credentialing bodies that certify what counts as knowledge in our society. What happens if the knowledge-forming institutions themselves become captured by sectarian conceptions of rights and expansive notions of subjective injury whose existence can only be ascertained through self-reporting that it then becomes a dogma that none may dispute and all must affirm?

There are reasons to suspect that the pursuit of exemptions from the rules that civil rights law now confer has moved beyond mere conscious fraud toward actually reshaping the way people think about themselves. The Wall Street Journal reports on “a surge in the number of students who take their exams in low-distraction testing centers, are allowed to get up and walk around during class or bring a comfort animal to school, among other measures.” A poll of students taken at Pomona College in 2014 found that 5 percent of them identified as "disabled". That same poll administered in 2019 found that the figure had grown to 22 percent. A nearly fourfold increase in so brief a surely tracks the explosive growth of a culture of systemic advantage seeking; but it likely also indicates a changing perception of the self, a higher threshold of sensitivity to the vicissitudes of everyday life, and an overall normalization and valorization of the condition of disability. The children of Lake Woebegon were once all above average; they now all require their own IEP.

If a duly certified clinician determines that your childhood trauma gives you a right to do what others are constrained from doing, even if it imposes costs and burdens that others must bear, on what grounds does an airline, a federal agency, or a federal judge declare otherwise? If the trauma is severe enough, wouldn’t it be both an intolerable cruelty and a violation of civil rights law to deny the person what medical science has decreed that they need? Wouldn’t it, in fact, be tantamount to a form of literal violence?

Future installments will move on to the harder cases.

[ecocore]

FUCKING PANSIES:

Queer Poetics, Plant Reproduction, Plant Poetics, Queer Reproduction

Caspar Heinemann

with images from Lee Pivnik

‘Waking, I was certain my room was host to a demon; terrified, I watched the remorseless eyes in the half light, till dawn gave me the courage to bolt shivering with fear to my parents’ bed. My father laughed: ‘Don’t be such a pansy, Derek.’ -Derek Jarman, Modern Nature

Don’t be such a pansy, Viola tricolor, violet, heart’s-ease, love-in-idleness; Pansy goes by many names, and many names fit into and fall under ‘Don’t be such a pansy, _______.’ Don’t be such a pansy, even if there’s a remorseless demon in your room, crouching in the dark, ready to tear you apart. Even if there’s a whole remorseless world out there, even in your parents’ bedroom, ready and waiting to tear you apart.

The pansy has remained a staple in anti-queer lexicon since the last century, the humble violet symbolising weakness, effeminacy, all things effete, wimpy, and generally flowery. Propagating alongside its siblings sissy, fairy, and faggot, the pansy is a resilient flower. However, its roots as an insult are not strictly horticultural. The etymology of pansy (flower) is the French pensée, the past tense of ‘to think’, and a feminine reflexive. This occurred when, in a dubious feat of anthropomorphising, the pansy was seen to resemble a person leant over in intense contemplation, which in turn led to it becoming a symbol of remembrance. As an insult, it was applied to the ineffectual intellectual, implying an emasculating failure to embody a forceful, active, masculine ideal. The quality of thoughtfulness was already both feminized and feminizing, but the first known use of the word to describe gay men was not until 1925 (Partridge, 1984).[1] At some point along the way, the studious pensée became the flamboyant pansy, the femininity of the insult taking precedence over any other qualities. With ‘pansy’ having no non-floral meaning in English, in popular usage any association with remembrance is forgotten. The intellectual intellectual basis of the insult becomes obscured through time and translation and all that we are left with is the ontological relation of a human subject to the Viola tricolor itself, and the vague sense that there is something not right in the boy who thinks too much, looks too closely.

When the insult ‘pansy’ is thrown, there exists the obvious implication that the victim is themselves, physically, a pansy. But alongside this, to be a pansy is most likely to also be someone with an affinity for pansies, someone who would rather draw flowers in the garden than kick a ball around, a boy who would rather have a bunch of arum lilies than a brace of pistols (Jarman, 1992, p28). Being a pansy is seen as both a cause and an effect of an underlying affection for the delicate, the pretty, and the decorative. Pansies love pansies because they are pansies, which is why they are pansies. The love of pansies is a red flag on the slippery slope to becoming a pansy, and the pansy is a pansy because pansy is the word for people who love pansies. This is not an intentional morphing, but rather, after all those hours in the garden someone turns and says ‘Don’t be such a pansy’, and then there is a demon in your room, and it is clear a pansy is a bad thing to be, which is strange to consider for someone who loves pansies, but lots of things are going to be strange from now on.

The homophobia of the insult pansy is not just the implication of effeminacy from association with the flower itself, but the homophobic condemnation of perceived sameness. The pansies love of pansies is taboo in part because they are a pansy, there is no heterosexual difference in pansy desire. However, the pansy-pansy identification is not the same as Narcissus falling in love with his own image, not the egocentric self-adoration of the daffodil leaning into the pond. The pansy is intensely relational and curious, and loves other pansies (and daffodils and geraniums and buttercups and snowdrops). Remember, the pansy becomes a pansy through perceived similarity and/or attachment to other pansies. The initial recognition was with something they were yet to become. In this way, pansy is inherently a collective identity, inhabiting a multiple temporality. To clarify, this is not an essentialist argument that all pansies like pansies, as in, ‘all people perceived as queer men like Viola tricolor.’ But rather, that its formulation as a generalised homophobic insult, potentially applied to any queer man, or any person read as such, means that ‘queer men like queer men’ (uncontroversial) can be read as ‘pansies like pansies’. The collision of this meaning, with the horticultural association, begins to create a framework for a positive understanding of queerness, reproduction, survival and the natural.

As with many anti-queer insults, an underlying assumption in pansy is that there is an unnaturalness to effeminacy, that it signifies something gone astray that would never thrive or even survive in the state of nature, a rupture in the normatively gendered Arcadian ideal. The pansy clearly cannot be a real man, because he is a flower, and flowers are not men, and men are not flowers. But even the most ardent homophobe would find it hard to argue that flowers are not ‘natural’, even in all their selectively bred garden centre glory. Whilst not wanting to perpetuate the myth of queer sex as inherently unreproductive, it is important to not deny that queerness still exists with a turbulent relationship to reproduction, in the biological sense. At the heart of this is the existence of queerness in relation to a medicalised discourse that understands the queer subject in terms of biology, in a way that is inherently naturalised, assuming queerness as something to be located in genes and hormones, glands and chromosomes.

This is not a form of acceptance or understanding, but rather a naturalisation that implies a failure, a departure from the script of healthy, normative heterosexuality and gender. When the queer body is accepted as a natural form, it is always a defective natural body, an abnormality that reinforces the norm. Homophobic and transphobic discourse has adopted this position in recent years, in reaction to the realisation that an understanding of the queer body as unnatural has the unintended consequence of devaluing any biologically based understanding of gender and sexuality, rendering the cisgender heterosexual body equally unnatural.[2] In reference to the earlier (and still present) form of anti-queer rhetoric Greta Gaard (1997) points out the irony that when homophobes use the argument that to be queer is to be against nature, they are insinuating that they care about ‘nature’, which is rarely the case. This is especially true for people coming from a fundamentalist Christian theological perspective in which man’s dominion over nature is central. She writes that ‘in effect, the "nature" queers are urged to comply with is none other than the dominant paradigm of heterosexuality.’ Nature becomes a weaponised synonym for reproduction, and everything that does not directly contribute to the survival of a the species becomes an affront.

As much as the queer is being called a flower, the flower is being called a queer. As much as the pansy lends its prettiness to the queer subject, the queer subject lends their effeminacy to the pansy. Although this could be read as a reductive anthropomorphising, there is also the potential for something else if the relationship is not read as one-way mapping of human characteristics onto flowers, but also flower characteristics onto humans, with implications for the agency of both. Gaard asks us to think not only in terms of the dualisms traditionally associated with conversations around gender, race, and nature, but the ‘vertical’ associations, ‘between reason and heterosexuality, for example, or between reason and whiteness as defined in opposition to emotions and nonwhite persons […] the ways queers are feminized, animalized, eroticized, and naturalized in a culture that devalues women, animals, nature, and sexuality […] how persons of color are feminized, animalized, eroticized, and naturalized. Finally, we can explore how nature is feminized, eroticized, even queered’ (1997). Taking this as a call to arms, there is the potential for a queer identification with what is termed ‘nature’ to have positive political implications not just for queerness, but for a wider ecological and social struggles.

When read against a binary understanding of human reproduction, flowers are inherently queer. This is not a modish application of the term ‘queer’ to anything remotely ‘strange’, divorced from its roots as a slur or any analysis of human sexuality and gender, but rather a comparative statement about human understanding of gendered bodies across species.[3] While the term ‘queer’ is referring to a very specifically human (and mostly white, Western) subjects navigation of a social world, it is also inaccurate to think of plants (and other species) as exempt from and untouched by this discourse. Given the prevalence of anthropocentrism, the reading of gender in plants inevitably reverberates and affects human understanding of human gender, and the reverse. As well as not wanting to make an anthropocentric imposition onto plants, I also want to avoid essentialising queerness in humans. To borrow from Nicole Seymour, I do not want to ‘claim that queer individuals necessarily have a particular kind of relationship to the non-human; [but focus] primarily on the queer relationships that humans might develop with the non-human, and how environmental ethics might emerge from queer practices and perspectives’ (2013, p29). I would add to this an investment in thinking through how queer ethics might emerge from environmental practices and perspectives. The queer anarchist collective Baedan define queer as ‘the inherent decomposition which afflicts gender […]; not this or that historically constituted subject category, but all the divergent bodily and spiritual expressions which escape their roles’ (2014). Rather than a positive, universalising usage of queer, queer is a contingency. I hope the clumsiness of attempting to talk about how plants fuck spills over, somehow, into somewhere productive (or unproductive).

The number of scientifically validated genders for plants far exceeds those commonly understood and accepted for humans. At the most basic level, single flowers are either male, female, or bisexual (also referred to as ‘perfect’, hermaphroditic or androgynous). However, categories proliferate due to the fact that different plants grow different combinations of male, female, or bisexual flowers. This does not mean that all species have male, female, and bisexual flowers - it is possible for plants to only have either bisexual or female flowers, for example. This is complicated further by the fact that in some species, the flowers will change gender. It is important to clarify here that when we are talking about plant gender, we are potentially discussing at three different scales - the gender of an individual flower, the gender of an individual plant, and the morphology of the species as a whole, all of which determine each other. Although obviously not directly translatable, these multiple scales of plant gender provide a nuanced and useful framework for thinking through human gender, in that we are always referring to a complicated enmeshment of biological sex, individual identity, collective identity and socially enforced role, none of which can be considered independently of one another.[4]

To avoid reducing the link between the flower body and the queer body to being purely to do with reproduction in a mechanical and biological sense, it is important to think though the specificity of the situation. For one thing, many species have reproductive practices entirely contrary to the ideals of human monogamous heterosexuality.[5] For another, the conceptual reduction of reproduction to a process of sexual reproduction and the continuation of a species is profoundly anti-queer, both in a literal and abstract sense. There is clearly a specificity to flowers that has led to the association with queerness, beyond ‘flowers are not straight and have multiple genders’. Whether or not explicitly acknowledged, research and discoveries into non-human lifeforms are always embroiled in human social questions, both in process in terms of methodology, and in their consequences and applications. In their essay Involutionary Momentum: Affective Ecologies and the Sciences of Plant/Insect Encounters, Carla Hustak and Natasha Myers begin to explore this tension between botany and ideology. They write of Charles Darwin’s flower experiments, and his downplaying of the evolutionary role of self-pollination (reproduction by an individual plant possessing male and female reproductive organs) in favour of cross-fertilisation (reproduction by two plants, via insects) which was seen to be necessary for the survival of ‘higher organic beings’. Hustak and Myers write, ‘Orchids, it turns out, were caught in a queer interspecies assemblage that disrupted normative Victorian sexualities and species boundaries’ (2012, p82). Flowers must be kept at arms length to prevent them from contaminating human sexual norms, but the mapping of those norms onto the flowers becomes necessary to attempt to rationalise what is found when those flowers are not kept at arms length.[6] The flower is constantly indexed onto human sexuality and yet remains impossible to entirely understand within or assimilate into a human heterosexual framework.

CAConrad is a queer poet who for several years has been working with what he refers to as ‘soma(tic) rituals’, ritualised bodily practices which he completes and then writes from his experiences of. One of these is called Security Cameras and Flowers Dreaming the Elevation Allegiance (For Susie Timmons). CA describes his frustration at the prevalence of security cameras in his home city of Philadelphia (‘FUCK YOU WATCHING US ALWAYS!!’). The ritual resistance he describes involves taking a basket of edible flowers to the scene (‘I eat pansies, I LOVE pansies, they’re delicious buttery purple lettuce!!’). He then looks directly into the camera and proceeds to place his tongue in the flower ‘in and out, flicking, licking, suckling blossoms.’ When confronted by a security guard he responds ‘I’M A POLLINATOR, I’M A POLLINATOR!!’ As soon as it is declared, it becomes obvious that of course he is, undeniably, a pollinator. Despite not being able to facilitate the actual reproduction of the plants, due to species constraints, the small act of resistance towards the security cameras becomes an act of potential pollination, a pollination of politics and ideas and poetry and joy, both a self-pollination and a cross-pollination.[7] The security cameras that CA is resisting are a part of an ecosystem, and he uses his agency as a being within that ecosystem to make a somatic and semiotic intervention against a mode of biopolitical control.

In CA engaging in a sexualised public ritual with flowers, there is also an implied parody of straight anxieties around queer sexuality, such as the argument that legalising gay marriage is a slippery slope towards people being allowed to marry their dogs. Apart from the obvious association of queerness with animality and the non-human, these anxieties are often explicitly or implicitly predicated on the notion that all unreproductive sexual practices are on some level unethical, prioritising pleasure over the continuation of the species. CA’s pollinator intervention gains another dimension when understood in terms of certain species of orchids that have the ability to attract pollinators without a material prize (nectar), but purely on the basis of their imitation of insect sex pheromones, attracting insects on the basis of desire, rather than physical sustenance.

In Animacies, Mel Y. Chen discusses linguistic animacy hierarchies, the way in which language is used to assign different levels of agency to matter, both living and non-living. In English, firmly at the top is the white male subject, everything else placed on a scale somewhere between him and a rock, or other perceived as wholly inactive matter. The argument is that to be compared to anything lower down inherently operates as an insult, in that it implies loss of agency, which is then linked to intelligence, ability, value, and social standing. Chen asks us, ‘If language normally and habitually distinguishes human and inhuman, live and dead, but then in certain circumstances wholly fails to do so, what might this tell us about the porosity of biopolitical logics themselves?’ (Chen, 2012, p7). What are the implications when a being higher up the animacy hierarchy (a human) chooses to align themselves with a ‘lower’ being (for example an insect pollinator)? The act of solidarity both implies a rejection of the value system which places life forms on such a hierarchy, attempting to level the playing field, and recognising how in certain situations it can be desirable to disassociate from the expectations associated with being ‘human’. The situating of ‘homo sapiens’ as something that can be disidentified with and opted out of, rather than a taxonomical fact, finds affinity with Giorgio Agamben’s assertion that ‘Homo sapiens, then, is neither a clearly defined species nor a substance; it is, rather, a machine or device for producing the recognition of the human’ (2003, p26). In addition to active verbal identification with other non-human agents, In The Greenhouse by Veronica Forrest-Thomson highlights how simply the experience of embodied encounter with the non-human can render taxonomies feeling arbitrary and redundant:

The silent rhythm of pulsating pores

filling my lungs with filtered earth

is all I feel or know of alien shapes

that once were flowers.

I breathe their breath

until all definitions are dissolved,

and homo sapiens is nothing more to me.

Perhaps less aligned with Agamben’s definition, these lines find more affinity with Karen Barad’s position that ‘“Humans” are neither pure cause or pure effect but part of the world in its openended becoming’ (2003, 821). Acts of Youth by the late queer poet John Wieners provides another instance of flower-consumption as symbolic of freedom from oppressive power structures.[8] He writes:

The fear of travelling, of the future without hope

or buoy. I must get away from this place and see

that there is no fear without me: that it is within

unless it be some sudden act or calamity

to land me in the hospital, a total wreck, without

memory again; or worse still, behind bars. If

I could just get out of the country. Some place

where one can eat the lotus in peace.

Give me the strength

to bear it, to enter those places where the

great animals are caged. And we can live

at peace by their side.

‘Some place where one can eat the lotus in peace’ is presented as the ultimate sanctuary from the fear and violence of his world, both inner and outer. Flower-eating operates as a literal form of, and metaphor for, spiritual survival precisely because of the low nutritional value of flowers, especially when compared to their high symbolic value. To eat a flower is to aesthetically nourish the body. Eating the lotus in peace is to embody a form of consumption not predicated on a violent conquest, but a gentle taking in of the other into the self, a pleasurable participation in an affective-aesthetic ecology. Wieners desire to live at peace by the side of the great animals in their cages demonstrates an identification with the feral and a siding with the non-human over the human (for who put the animals in cages?). But it is perhaps telling that even in the potentially limitless space of poetics, Wieners chooses to live with caged animals. Trans poet Verity Spott ends her piece Against Trans* Manifestos (2015) with the lines: ‘Determined as it is by a start and a finish, a false double, something that contains at least five harmonic falsities on a liberal map of social reality. Perhaps this is why we have a fetish involving cages; everything impossible to communicate.’ Read against this, Wieners collective desire (‘we’) to live with caged animals becomes a recognition of the contingency of pleasure, and of the description of pleasure as itself a form of caging, and how agency can be enacted whilst being trapped ‘inside’.[9] There is also the issue of temporality within cages, and to what extent temporality is defined by a sense of history and progress, necessarily implying movement and action. Hustak and Myers identify the stationary nature of plants as part of the reason they are placed near the bottom of ‘hierarchies that identify outward motion and action as signs of agency’ (80). This has resonance with the origins of pansy as an insult, as rooted in an notion of thoughtfulness and introspection as effeminate and inferior to active, assertive masculinity. In Our Lady of The Flowers Jean Genet describes the gender identity of the character Divine:

‘Her femininity was not only a masquerade. But as for thinking woman completely, her organs hindered her. To think is to perform an act. In order to act, you have to discard frivolity and set your idea on a solid base. So she was aided by the idea of solidity, which she associated with the idea of virility, and it was in grammar that she found it near at hand. For if, to define a state of mind that she felt, Divine dared use the feminine, she was unable to do so in defining an action which she performed. And all the ‘woman’ judgments she made were, in reality, poetic conclusions.’ (1988, p176)

Solidity and action are associated with the masculine, but this is complicated by the assertion that ‘to think is to perform an act.’ Divine dares to use feminine pronouns for her states of mind, but not in defining her actions. If thinking is an action, then ‘state of mind’ has to be referring to something other than thoughts. The ‘‘woman’ judgements’ she made, which are emphatically not thoughts, are ‘poetic conclusions’. The distinction between active masculine ‘thoughts’ and feminine ‘states of mind’ and ‘poetic conclusions’ is that in order to act, ‘you have to discard frivolity and set your idea on a solid base.’ Solidity and virility are found in grammar, and therefore poetic language is disqualified from the realm of ‘thinking’ due to its frivolity and instability. Its exclusion from thinking as a masculine exercise, outside of solidity and grammar and certainty, means that poetry is in a unique position to express possibilities and potentials outside of dominant thought.

In an essay entitled The Queer Voice: Reparative Poetry Rituals & Glitter Perversions CAConrad describes the somatic rituals he performed to write poetry and attempt to heal himself from the trauma of the homophobic murder of his boyfriend, Earth. One of these rituals results in a dream, where CA finds himself in a garden with Earth, although they do not meet human face to human face. In the garden Earth communicates with CA through flowers who explain to him the difficulty of Earth’s time on earth, acting as prophets from the spirit world whilst remaining entirely grounded in earth and syntax. CA explains that the flowers did not speak with mouths, but ‘their centers mashed up and down as they told me [Earth] could not see me now because he was busy repairing.’ In German the phrase ‘Durch die Blume Gesprochen’, literally ‘spoken through a flower’, means to subtly hint at something without giving away all the details, a minor verbal obfuscation to soften blows or gently allude to an issue. In English, there is ‘flowery language’, with some similar implications and an added air of assumed affectation and pretension (remember the origins of ‘pansy’?). There is also the Latin phrase ‘sub rosa’, literally meaning ‘under the rose’ and used to indicate secrecy and confidentiality. Flowers are seen as untruthful, dishonest in their embodiment, as hiding something under their opulent exteriors. However, in CA’s prophet-flowers the exact opposite is the case, the flowers are messengers of the deepest, most vital truths.

In common parlance there is something in the overtly elaborate and ornate that becomes read as at best wasteful, and at worst deceitful. As a bridge between morphology and semiotics, Georges Bataille colludes with this perspective in The Language of Flowers when he writes, ‘Thus the interior of a rose does not at all correspond to its exterior beauty; if one tears off all of the corolla's petals, all that remains is a rather sordid tuft.’ (Bataille, 1985, p12) The flowers insides are seen as a betrayal of its exterior form, despite that exterior form existing partially for the purpose of attracting insects to the interior. Whilst admitting that some flowers (again, orchids) possess ‘elegant’ stamens, for Bataille this beauty is ‘satanic’, and ‘one is tempted to attribute to them the most troubling human perversions.’ (12) It feels redundant to say that flowers are sexualised, in the sense that they are literally reproductive organs. To be more specific, the sexualisation of flowers is both a cause and consequence of their status as feminine. Bataille makes this misogyny explicit, going on to state that once flowers die, they do not age ‘honestly’ like leaves, but wither like ‘old and overly made-up dowagers.’ (12) Flowers are singled out for their aesthetic qualities, objectified for their external beauty, and reduced to their reproductive function, a feminised position. Simultaneously, they are seen as performing in excess of that role, of being too flamboyant and melodramatic for the task at hand, their beauty seen as a form of deception and trickery. In addition to the obvious analogy with women under patriarchy, this mistrust on the basis of perceived inauthenticity and frivolity also has resonance with a queer position.

To deal first with inauthenticity, I want to suggest that the treatment of artifice as falsification and dishonesty is a feature of straight culture, with little relevance to most queer people. Despite the limitations and dangers of this kind of essentialising, there are material issues at hand. For example, for trans people there is often the sense that an external presentation that could be perceived from the outside to be inauthentic is in fact the most honest expression of their inner selves, and many queer people must keep their desires or certain aspects of their lives internal, or at least restrict who has knowledge of them. To exist as queer in the world requires a certain amount of ‘speaking through flowers’, acknowledging the impossibility and possible undesirability of an entirely transparent existence. Michel Foucault in A History of Sexuality describes the transition from sodomy as a practice into the homosexual as a subject position, ‘a personage, a past, a case history, and a childhood, in addition to being a type of life, a life form, and a morphology, with an indiscreet anatomy and possibly a mysterious physiology […] [sexuality] written immodestly on his face and body because it was a secret that always gave itself away’ (1978, p43). The assumed knowability of the queer body through its naming as such, and that naming giving rise to the presumption of a specific sexual morphology, provides some context for the ambivalent relationship of many queer people to visibility and representation. Speaking through flowers could be a mode of engagement simultaneously flaunting and obscuring one’s ‘indiscreet anatomy’, operating as a form of resistance to and avoidance of biopolitical control, a tactic of conscious illegibility and subterfuge.

A concept closely related to inauthenticity is unnaturalness, both related to the idea that there is a true form that is being betrayed. When Bataille talks of being tempted to attribute to flowers ‘the most troubling human perversions’ it becomes clear that despite falling under the rubric of what is commonly referred to as ‘nature’, the sexuality of flowers is only tenuously perceived as natural. Timothy Morton describes nature as a ‘transcendental term in a material mask’, and the end of a potentially infinite metonymic list: ‘fish, grass, mountain air, chimpanzees, love, soda water, freedom of choice, heterosexuality, free markets…Nature’ (2009, p14). When we accept that there is no actual criteria for naturalness, apart from vague essentialist subjective perception, there is the awkward reality that if something is described as unnatural then it is unnatural, inasmuch as something becomes natural through the same process. As flowers are often read as suspiciously unnatural, they are in some sense are. The unnaturalness of flowers has to do with excess, which is to say wastefulness, which is to say floweriness. To be natural is to fit into a straight human logic of heterosexual reproduction, whether through direct participation or resemblance to the model, to refuse this demand is to be against nature. It is here that both queers and flowers fall through the cracks.

Historically, a large element of what we now refer to as ‘homophobia’ was religiously grounded in the Christian belief that any sexual practices not entirely related procreation were a sin, as they were wasteful of semen. There is an association therefore between queerness and wastefulness, as well as refusal of sexual reproduction, leading to a queer understanding of the necessity of what has been deemed trivial and non-essential, a celebration of earthly pleasures, and a respect for the temporary and fleeting. Nicole Seymour suggests there is something ‘admirable’ and ‘thrillingly ironic’ in queer environmentalism, ‘that those with a foreclosed relationship to “the future” in heteronormative terms would be deeply concerned about the future in ecological terms’ (2012, p63). In In A Queer Time & Place Jack Halberstam makes the argument for queer time as operating within a different logic from straight time, writing that ‘queer subcultures produce alternative temporalities by allowing their participants to believe that their futures can be imagined according to logics that lie outside of those paradigmatic markers of life experience-namely, birth, marriage, reproduction, and death’ (2005, p2). Halberstam ties this specifically to the AIDS crisis, making links with Lee Edelman’s argument for queer anti-futurity (2004). Despite how it is sometimes characterised, this is not a case of ‘positive’ versus ‘negative’ models of queerness, because in theorising anti-futurity as a feature of queerness Edelman betrays a desire for some sense of ‘queer’ as a meaningful, and ultimately positive (by some definition), cohesion. Neel Ahuja argues ‘we might thus benefit from thinking more broadly about reproduction than Edelman does, recognizing that bodies and atmospheres reproduce through complex forms of socio-ecological entanglement.’ Without wanting to reinforce ‘repro-centric’ discourse, I would argue in parallel that what is taking place in queer culture is not a refusal of reproduction, but a cultural, which is to say unnatural, reproduction based on something other than the straight nuclear family unit.[10]

In a soma(tic) ritual entitled Suspension Fluid Magnificence (For Samuel R. Delaney & Stephen Boyer) CA describes approaching men on the street and requesting that they rate their semen on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being ‘thin and creamy’ and 5 being ‘cottage cheese.’ He describes this as an attempt to think through ‘how wilderness is memorised in the body’, looking for men to ‘step up to the quiet, feral interior.’ Dealing explicitly with the materiality of biological reproduction, CA does not dismiss the power or significance of semen but rather thinks through how it retains this power and significance as an aesthetic, semiotic, and social material. He writes ‘Semen is fascinating […] The orgasm the flash of light reconnecting to the original proliferation of cells and the construction of sensate flesh, which is a very marvellous thing, being here, all of us.’ In what could have easily been a glorification of straight reproduction CA manages to create an inclusive networked cosmology, a glorification of pleasure and the animistic power of sensate flesh, the wonder of being here, all of us, but no dads. #nodads was a meme originating in 2012 from ultraleft circles on Twitter. Being a meme, its meaning was variable and plural, however the central theme was rejection of the father figure in his oppressive patriarchal role, but equally in more paternalistic caring capacities. In his analysis of the meme Aaron Bady describes it as ‘a rejection of the category [of dad] itself—and of the manner in which it comes to seem a higher order category than many others—it doesn’t necessarily have all that much to do with actual dads, but only by the sociological matrix that makes biology into destiny’ (2012). This feels like a useful model of thinking through biological reproduction, which is to say that none of this is a rejection of the continuation of the human species but rather a thinking through of how reproduction operates when enmeshed with a heterosexual culture which formulates it as the only form of reproduction and life worth celebrating. In this context CA’s cum poetry gestures towards a reconciliation whereby bodily functions can be celebrated as feral and joyous outside of a normative matrix.

To reiterate, this is not to suggest that queer sex is inherently biologically unreproductive, but a reminder that there is a historical context in which queer sex has been framed as wasteful due to its association with unreproductive pleasure. Additionally, there is the factor that biological reproduction is not an organising principal of queer culture, as opposed to straight culture where ‘community is imagined through scenes of intimacy, coupling, and kinship; a historical relation to futurity is restricted to generational narrative and reproduction’ (Berlant and Warner, 1998, p554). If a function of the straight nuclear family is to reproduce the straight nuclear family, queer family cannot rely on this means of reproducing itself, queers cannot take for granted the immortality of reproduction, but this leads to more creative forms of intimacy, kinship, survival and ‘immortality’. Within this framework, it is precisely what is deemed nonessential that is the means of survival: art, poetry, music, fashion, and what Berlant and Warner refer to as ‘parasitic and fugitive elaboration through gossip, dance clubs, softball leagues, and the phone-sex ads’ (p561). In parallel, in flowers it is the colours and scents and delicate forms that are commonly read by human eyes as elaborate and ostentatious that are the bread and butter of survival. Hustak and Myers describe Darwin’s delight in orchids as he saw them as ‘a demonstration that even beautiful forms had utilitarian, adaptive value.’ (75) Although this could be read as an insinuation that forms only have worth if they have utilitarian value, it can also be an understanding that the form and function are inseparable, and the beauty is its own functionality. In a poem referencing the homophobic Black Mountain poet Ed Dorn, CAConrad writes:

i need a soda to

wash this glitter down

it's dark in the stomach

next morning

bathroom light catches

glint of turd covered

in glitter

disco log in the bowl

fecal poetry ranges from

shocking to absurd

this is neither

this is pragmatic

it's my life as i need to live it

Ed Dorn i would kill myself if

i were you but i'm not and

get to live this spectacular

life of sparkling hygiene

CA refuses to frame his glitter consumption as anything other than a practical everyday ritual needed for survival, alongside eating or sleeping, he refuses to draw any distinction between physical, emotional and spiritual survivals. The reality that queer survival is inherently predicated on something other than the physical continuation of the species manifests in a personal sense as survival being about more than the day to day physical maintenance of a body, or more accurately, redefining what constitutes the day to day physical maintenance of a body. This is not to say that it is an abstract and disembodied survival, as what could be more embodied than eating and shitting out glitter? But rather that it treats the body as a vessel for a modest, everyday spiritual joy, no matter how temporary. Pleasure for pleasure and survival’s sake, and always the twain shall meet.

Another poem in the series includes the lines ‘Ed Dorn thinks faggots should drink directly from the sewer / i want to dress special for this.’ There is a provocative knowing that dressing special is not unrelated to why Dorn thinks faggots should drink directly from the sewer, and that dressing special for this punishment will add to his annoyance. In Dorn’s initial comments there is also the implication of queers as wasteful, as undeserving of the privilege of clean tap water; If the ultimate goal is reproduction, queers are a waste of resources. The poem goes on to imagine Dorn asking CA, ‘what camouflage will you wear to hide in the gingerbread house?’ and CA replying ‘none, I want the witch to find me EAT ME!’ This acts as a subversion of survival narratives and demonstrates a lack of belief in the inherent goodness of physical self-preservation and security at all costs. This is not say that physical survival is not important but rather that sometimes it is important for your spiritual survival to allow yourself to be eaten by a witch rather than accept a life of homophobe-endorsed camouflage in the gingerbread house. What are we potentially missing out on when we hide in camouflage in the gingerbread house? Is being eaten by the witch the worst that could happen? In Darwin’s Plots Gillian Beer describes the moment in which the intersection of evolutionary theory and psychological theory became important as it began to ask ‘what emotions and what reflex actions help the individual and race to survive’ (2009, p201). This instrumentalisation of affect seems to shut down the possibility of an ‘affective ecology’ (Hustak and Myers) based on anything other than reproduction.

When asked in interview about his reasons for becoming a writer John Wieners answers, ‘Immortality, in the sense of living after one’s own time has run out’ (1993). Again, there is the sense of ‘life’ as existing beyond an individual’s lifespan, attached to an individual but not necessarily to their physical form or genetics.

Dancing dandelions

and buttercups in the grass

remind me of other summer

flowers, simple blossoms

roses and tiger lilies by the wall

milk pod, sumac branches

lilacs across the road, daisies, blueberries

snaps, cut violets

three years ago still grow in my mind

as peonies or planted geraniums, bachelor buttons

in downy fields filled with clover

lover, come again and again up fern

path upheld as memory’s perennial

against stern hard-faced officers of imprisonment

and cold regulation more painful than lover’s arms

or flowers charming but not more lasting

No, the wild tulip shall outlast the prison wall

no matter what grows within.

In Wiener’s 1969 poem Private Estate, reproduced in its entirety above, a flowing list of flowers ebbs seamlessly into a lover, before the scene is abruptly cut by ‘stern hard-faced officers of imprisonment and cold regulation’. The ambiguous line break after clover leaves the possibility for the ‘clover lover’ as the lover made of clover, or the lover of clover. Years are things that continue to develop and change after their official endings, growing towards the sun, if only in the mind. The cyclical, nonlinear queer time of lover’s arms or flowers is sectioned off by the harsh linear institutional time of the prison or mental hospital. Despite this, these seemingly concrete and immutable structures are presented as ultimately more precarious and fleeting, being outlasted by the wild tulip. In an essay on feminist applications of Darwin, Elizabeth Grosz describes the sense in his work ‘in which the domination of species or individuals is inherently precarious and necessarily historically limited’ (2008, 42). The fragility of power structures and a nondeterministic time is drawn out as a central point where social struggles and biology could find affinity. The tulip is a perennial plant, meaning simply a plant that lives longer than two years, in opposition to biannual and annual plants, which must be replanted more frequently. The taxonomical listing of the poem suggests however that it is not a single tulip that will outlast the prison, but rather wild tulips as a whole, or perhaps even just the idea of the wild tulip. When Wieners speaks of ‘memory’s perennial’ it invites the possibility of the plants having not physically survived at all, yet continuing to grow and thrive in his mind.

This mirrors his statement of desire for immortality through writing. The lines ‘lover, come again and again up fern / path upheld as memory’s perennial’ operate on this ambiguous perennial time, the flirtatious talk of lovers mixing with the seasonal dying back and reblooming of the plants, taking place as a specific memory but also the substance of memory itself. In The Imagination through Time, Wieners speaks of the hour and minute as ‘false divisions of the moon’. The poem ends:

the cautious breath of a friend,

presumably, also up,

in the dark of his house,

who alike hears your thoughts,

wondering; that is a true meeting in eternity.

Not this petty worry

about days, months, proximities

to warmth. There are always fires

on earth, that burn immortally.

For Wieners, human intimacy is a form of immortality, only the ephemeral can come close to touching the eternal. The constant anxiety of looking for comfort and stability (‘proximities to warmth’) is quelled by the knowledge there are always fires burning immortally, somewhere on earth. In another poem about his murdered lover, I Loved Earth Years Ago CA explains, ‘He named himself Earth when planet extinction was clearest.’ The naming decision itself and CA’s recalling of it operate simultaneously as morbid foreshadowing and a hymn to survival and resilience. There is the triple, triangulated meaning of Earth to refer to CA’s lover, the planet Earth, and earth itself, the mud and soil of the world. There is the sense that CA used to love Earth, but there was some rupture that necessitates the use of the past tense, coexisting with the feeling that he has been loving Earth for a long, long time. The statement that he loved Earth years ago does not mean he does not love him now, but there is an acceptance of change. The temporality of the title can be read as an example of Wiener’s ‘perennial time’, neither endless reproduction nor something constricted to a single discrete moment, but something seasonal, ebbing and flowing, perhaps not itself forever, but something, somewhere. In Julia Kristeva’s essay Women’s Time, she suggests that despite being seemingly opposed, eternal and cyclical time, both associated with women, might be closer than they first appear as they both operate outside of linear time (1981). Not wanting to replicate the essentialism of Kristeva’s thought, and in reference to Halberstam (2005), I would argue that this exclusion from (or rejection of) linearity (or straight time) is present not only in women but all who fall outside of the timeframes of normative heterosexuality and gender.[11] In CA’s title there is the evocation of a measurement of time outside of ruling time, a different temporal space: ‘Earth Years’. Earth Years act as a counter to heteronormative timescales, of the years and milestones of straight reproduction, or possibly as a calendar more in tune with the seasons, a rejection of the arbitrary timekeeping divorced from them and enforced as a tool of (re)productivity.

In Permission Please To Be a Stone but You Are A Clock We Say CA writes ‘no wonder clocks aspire to granite’, becoming, ‘don’t allude to my spurt / don’t look at my thighs / you pernicious clocks / make the worst stones’. Jeffrey Jerome Cohen makes the argument that despite being seen as stable and fixed ‘stone is fluid when viewed within its proper duration’ (2015). Clocks can only aspire to the timekeeping abilities of stone, their constant sense of movement and progress overshadowed by the eternal. The honest breaking down of stone into sand usurps the arbitrary time of the constantly flipped hourglass. In Wieners’ words: ‘a true meeting in eternity. / Not this petty worry about days, months, proximities to warmth.’ Tim Dean proposes that ‘queer theorists of spectrality embrace asynchronous temporalities because they regard being haunted as an opportunity to produce a different future, one that the past did not generate but still might’ (2011, p92). This text began with the thoughtful pansy both as a symbol of remembrance and of queer effeminacy, occupying a place of perceived fragility and permanence, its individual lifespan coming up against its collective, symbolic lifespan. Thinking through what I’ve termed queer reproduction, I want to suggest this intersection as politically vital from an ecological perspective for imagining what abundance and joy could mean outside of cycles of physical re/production and consumption. Eternity is not present in static monoliths but in variable, shifting networks of pleasure and affect. In speaking through flowers, which is to say poetry, the consequences of communication are non-linear, cross-pollinated and dispersed, the eternal and cyclical affectively and effectively meeting to produce models of life which could be described as pragmatically opulent. Poetry becomes the language of survival in excess and weaponised floweriness, everything that is ‘too much’ pushing back against false scarcity and repressive taxonomies of gender and sexuality, creating breathing space for a politics of cornucopia, possibility and, propagation outside the already-existing. Fucking pansies speaking through flowers.

‘Do not think of the future; there is none.’

-John Wieners, 6th January 1934 – 1st March 2002

1. From Eric Partridge, A Dictionary of Slang & Unconventional English, 8th edition (1984): pansy, n. A very effeminate youth; a homosexual: from ca. 1925. Cf. Nancy (boy). Also pansy-boy: from ca. 1930; New Statesman and Nation, 15 Sep. 1934, concerning the fascist meeting in Hyde Park on 9 Sep., notes that there were, from the crowd, 'shouts about 'pansy-boys'". ↩

2. The term ‘cisgender’ is used to describe someone who is not transgender, i.e. someone whose gender identity is broadly aligned with the gender they were assigned at birth.  ↩

3. See: The Molecularisation of Sexuality by Jordana Rosenburg for a fuller critique of the problems of infinitely abstracting ‘queerness’.  ↩

4. Luciana Parisi’s Abstract Sex thinks through these questions of scale and transferability, for example: ‘The biophysical organisation of sex questions the accounts of a human-centred evolution that assimilates sex to sexual reproduction and sexual organs determining the progressive evolution of the body – from bacteria to humans – and sex – from unicellular to multicellular sex’ (p22).  ↩

5. See Evolution's Rainbow: Diversity, Gender, and Sexuality in Nature and People by Joan Roughgarden (2009) for wide-ranging accounts of gender and sexual diversity in non-human species. ↩

6. This issue is explored by Eva Hayward with reference to marine life: ‘With the aquarium, the unnerving sexual variation of marine life moved from ocean depths—which was a gothic scene for Victorians—into the inner sanctum of social order and bodily regulation, the aristocratic home. Efforts to know, classify, and conquer the oceanic, and otherwise capture nature for visual pleasure, resulted in a counter conquest of the home by monsters and sexual deviants (2012, p166) ↩

7. This has echoes of Deleuze and Guattari’s writing on the contagion: ‘We oppose epidemic to filiation, contagion to heredity, peopling by contagion to sexual reproduction, sexual production. Bands, human or animal, proliferate by contagion, epidemics, battlefields, and catastrophes. Like hybrids, which are themselves sterile, born of a sexual union that will not reproduce itself, but which begins over again every time, gaining that much ground’ (1987, p241).  ↩

8. The flower-eating theme is potentially non-coincidental, as CA has cited Wieners as an influence, and recently edited a collection of his work, Supplication, in which the above poem appears.  ↩

9. For more on animal captivity, see Hayward (2012).  ↩

10. ‘Repro-centricism’, i.e. the centring of reproduction as the default mode in all discussions of sexual difference, is a term borrowed from Catriona Mortimer-Sandilands and Bruce Erickson in their introduction to Queer Ecologies: Sex, Nature, Politics, Desire (2010), p11.  ↩

11. For perspectives on what ‘gay men’s time’ might look like, see: Edelman (2004) and Dean (2011). ↩

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[hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger]

Once upon a time a certain big name within the Spider-Man fandom spoke upon issue #500 and how it wasn’t a good issue, specifically talking about the ending involving Uncle Ben and how it was ‘banal’.

 This is my rebuttal to that.

 First lets look at the scene in question and give a little context. It’s Spider-Man’s birthday and he’s spent his time on a trip through his life.

 He’s seen a possible future where his identity has been compromised, where he’s wanted by the law and where he is ultimately killed in a last stand with the authorities. Then he’s witnessed his origin as a teenager and had to essentially sporadically hop to random points along his timeline in order to get back to where he started and avert a demonic invasion.

  In typical Spider-Man fashion the moments of his life he finds himself returning to are far from pleasant ones as he finds himself in the midst of his battles with various foes, or trapped under machinery in Doc Ock’s underwater base, or even at the Brooklyn Bridge trying and again failing to save Gwen Stacy.

 All of this is courtesy of Doctor Strange who inspires Spider-Man to keep on fighting after the latter incident.

And when I say he has to keep fighting...I mean he has to do all of this:

 Bad ass.

 Anyway by the end of the issue Spider-Man opens up a box from Doctor Strange with a note saying he has just five minutes. And its a doozy!

 Okay so the main points of contention from this particular Spider-Man fan, when commenting on this issue, boiled down to:

 1)      This was underwhelming for a 500th issue of a historic title, with ASM #600 being better on that front

2)      It’s almost like another Doctor Strange story because Spider-Man is up against Dormammu and Doctor Strange is involved

3)      You expect a big ass battle, perhaps with all of his villains as the cover depicted

4)      You never feel like its a personal enough story for Spider-Man because its cluttered with other stuff

5)      The conversation between Peter and Uncle Ben is banal and says nothing of importance, not addressing Peter’s role in Ben’s death. Particularly this Spider-Man fan notes how if his father was alive again their conversation would be a lot more substantial.

So let’s address these criticisms one by one.

 1)      This was underwhelming for a 500th issue of a historic title.

I don’t entirely disagree with this.

 For a $3.50 comic book in 2004 that was almost (despite the cover’s claim to the contrary) double length the story was mostly just a clipshow. For an issue which is a milestone amongst milestones (being halfway to issue #1000) something more seismic should’ve been in order. As was though the issue was something of a clipshow comic book which isn’t really acceptable when you consider other centennial Spider-Man issues have had stuff like a rematch between Spidey and the Burglar, the death of Harry Osborn, the death of Aunt May or even in ASM #700’s case a big status quo shift. Okay it was shifting into a bad status quo but that’s not my point.

 My point is a centennial issue should carry weight to it. it should either be the culmination of something or the beginning of something that’d matter going forward. ASM #500 was the end of a three issue arc that had only one consequence thereafter, the setting up of another short arc involving Loki. Really the story was fairly skippable which for a centennial issue isn’t good enough.

 However that being said the story should be evaluated unto itself and not just on the basis of how it marks a milestone.

 2)      It’s almost like another Doctor Strange story because Spider-Man is up against Dormammu and Doctor Strange is involved

 Arguably, this point might be true of the three part story overall. However it is not true of ASM #500 in isolation.

 Yes the main impetus is to stop Dormammu and yes Doctor Strange is involved and the one sending Spider-Man on his journey down memory lane.

 However they are nothing more than the excuses to get the story going. The story being a highlighting of Spider-Man’s struggles, the cost of the costume and how Peter feels about that at the end of the day.

 That’s what the story is really about and it’s not only squarely based on Peter but it is also most definitely by it’s introspective nature a Spider-Man story.

 Really Dormammu and Doctor Strange could’ve been switched out for Doctor Doom and Reed Richards and it would’ve amounted to the same thing. Stopping Dormammu is the destination Doctor Strange is the vehicle getting us to that destination but the story is about the guy in that vehicle and his journey to reach that destination and what he feels about the journey once it is over.

 3)      You expect a big ass battle, perhaps with all of his villains as the cover depicted

 We got that. See the splash page above. More poignantly seeing Spider-Man be thrown into all of his old battles at random with little respite and endlessly fight and fight and fight some more, triumphing over each of them and getting back home to help save the whole damn world is a pretty big feat of Spider-Man’s strength and willpower. It’s yet another ‘lift the wreckage off your back’ moment but done differently.

 4)      You never feel like its a personal enough story for Spider-Man because its cluttered with other stuff

 See my rebuttal to point 2) and also take another look at those conversations I posted between Peter and Doctor Strange and Peter and Uncle Ben, not to mention these scenes.

This isn’t personal?

 Also amongst the 38 pages of this issue do you know how many feature the Mindless Ones, Dormammu or none Spider-Man characters (exempting instances like the Juggernaut) and have mostly not been about Spider-Man’s main personal journey in the story? 7 tops. And two of those was setting up the mechanics of the story to allow Spider-Man to return to his own timeline.

 So the story is cluttered by all those things being in...less than 19% of the story? So...egregiously less than even ¼ of the overall story?

 Okay.

  5)      The conversation between Peter and Uncle Ben is banal and says nothing of importance, not addressing Peter’s role in Ben’s death. Particularly this Spider-Man fan notes how if his father was alive again their conversation would be a lot more substantial.

  This is probably my biggest bone to pick for various reasons because it speaks to frankly looking at the story far too superficially and also allowing personal life stuff to cloud your judgement. And also because, as you will hear me repeat going forward, this scene was ingenious.

 First of all let’s get a little messy here and talk about the commenter and their father. I do not know the commenter very well and know even less of their father. But I do not need to in order to make my point because it is incredibly basic and obvious.

 The commenter isn’t Spider-Man, their father wasn’t like Uncle Ben and their relationship with one another wasn’t like Peter and Ben’s.

 I know this because

 a)      No one in real life is like Spider-Man or Uncle Ben

b)      No one’s life experiences is like Spider-Man’s, not even police officers who have maybe the closest equivalent to Spider-Man’s life (and from what I know of the commenter they have never been a police officer)

c)       No two people are identical on this earth in their personalities which by definition means no two people’s relationship will be identical to any other two people’s relationship. Especially when it comes to a relationship between a parent and child which is about as personal as you could get.

 All of which renders the criticism that they would’ve said something different or more substantial to their briefly resurrected father entirely invalid.

 Frankly, anyone seeking to truly analyze the scene or critique it should not be asking what THEY would’ve done in Peter’s position and instead be asking what made sense for Peter in the context of his life, personality and history would do. And at the same time what BEN would’ve done, something the commenter entirely neglected.

 Which is in fact the real genius of the scene. It flips the script quite a bit to instead of having Peter seek a lot of answers from Ben, it actually shows us that Ben has somethings he wants to ask Peter.

 Which is ingenious because after 40+ years we are entirely aware that Peter misses uncle Ben and wants to see him again. But the scene in ASM #500 makes the point that actually Ben would miss Peter too and would need to get a certain amount of closure from him, which I will get into a bit more shortly.

 I think if Uncle Ben returned we’d all expect Peter to want to confess and ask Ben for forgiveness for his part in Ben’s death. And the thing is...he did that, or rather he tried too. Because JMS opted to take things a step further. He had Peter begin to ask Ben for forgiveness and for Ben to cut him off before specifics were said.

 Which is again ingenious. Let’s be real here, based upon everything we’ve ever known about Uncle Ben (and putting aside how the Ben in this story clearly is aware he’s dead), he’d obviously forgive his nephew for his lack of action when he was 15 years old, especially in light of all he’s done since.

 What JMS did was subvert that expectation and have Ben not forgive Peter, but go so far as to say that he doesn’t even consider what Peter did as something his nephew needs forgiveness for, not from him anyway. In one stroke Ben conveys to Peter and the reader that Peter is not atoned for his original sin but rather he never needed that atonement in the first place. Which had writers really paid attention, should have ended any BS guilt tripping Peter visited upon himself going forward when you think about it.

 So off the top the issue not only addresses one of the major points of discussion everyone would’ve envisioned for this sort of scenario.

 In fact, really as far as Peter is concerned what else is there really to talk about with Ben?

 Remember by all accounts Peter and Ben had a very positive and fulfilling parent/child relationship. Peter and Ben’s last interaction wasn’t an argumentative or negative one from what we know. So there is no ‘unfinished business’ left to settle between them like there was between Harry and Norman when either of them were depicted to have died.

 What else does Peter, within the mere five minutes he has with Uncle Ben, really  got to say to his Uncle? Especially when you consider from his experiences with this stuff Ben is probably able to know or observe the stuff that goes on in Peter’s life. Like Peter really doesn’t have to tell Ben he’s married, or that he’s a teacher or even that he’s Spider-Man.

 What else from a storytelling perspective does the specific character of Peter Parker (not you, me, the commenter or anyone else) need to say to Ben once the issue of his guilt over his death has been addressed? The answer is nothing really, at least nothing that we the readers really need to see him saying.

 Returning to what I said above, JMS further subverts the expectations in this scenario by having Ben be the one who asks the questions. Cleverly though the focus is still on Peter. Ben is shown to be the one with concern for his son but in asking the questions we get to examine Peter.

 Now this is not only brilliant for the reasons I’ve outlines, but because it is also touchingly realistic despite the fantastical scenario.

 Whilst there are some shitty parents out there, most parents love their children, regard them as the most important things in their life and make their well-being their top priority.

 In this issue we have a man who was the adoptive father of this kid who involuntarily had to leave his son when he was just 15 and still in need of parental guidance as he grew up. Now for a mere 5 minutes he gets the chance to see his son again when he’s all grown up. Even ignoring how he’s literally dead, Ben’s window of opportunity to raise and shape Peter, his son, closed a long time ago.

 So instead (as discussed above) he does assuages Peter’s concerns and proceeds to do what frankly MOST parents in that situation would do. He seeks reassurance. Not for Peter’s sake but for his own.

 He asks Peter two questions, the first of which boils down to

 Have you tried to live a meaningful life?

 Now granted Peter somewhat lies in his answer because when Ben asks if he ever walked away from what he believed ‘even once’ he says he never has when ASM #50 and ASM #100 alone are proof that that isn’t true. But then again earlier on Ben did comment that we all stumble and I suppose when you get right down to it, it’s more important that Peter kept coming back to his responsibilities as Spider-Man than the fact that on occasion he walked away from it for, at most, like a few months.

 So Peter’s life is reaffirmed as one of meaning, which is a poignant question for a parent to have answered of their child. And also a poignant one for anyone to have to dig deep and answer of themselves as Peter did in that moment.

 However it is not as poignant as Ben’s second question, one which goes to the heart of essentially every human being who’s ever lived.

 Are you happy?

  Let me break that down for you a little bit.

 Uncle Ben is a man who never got to finish his job as a parent to his son Peter and never got to see the specifics of how his life unfolded.

 Now in a very brief window of time he has the chance to find out first hand from his fully grown son if his efforts as a parent paid off.

 And more pressingly he has the opportunity to know the thing virtually EVERY parent across the planet and all time has wanted to know.

 Is my child happy?

 Is the person whom I love more than anyone in my life or in the whole world, the person whom I can’t help anymore after years of trying to help them, are they happy?

 Can I go back to where I came from, where I can’t see them or interact with them, with my mind at ease knowing that they are okay?

 This is an entirely realistic thing for Ben to ask and something that fans probably considered a Hell of a lot less than Peter’s side of the scenario.

 But the real brilliance of the scene is not in the fact that Ben as a parent would ask the question. But that it makes Peter ask it of himself.

 Keep in mind the context of the scene.

 Peter has just relived his life, or rather all the crazy super hero parts of it, i.e. the parts which have caused the most pain and problems in his life. The parts which do mostly amount to violence that’s gotten under his skin and threatened to break him. The parts which he has recently learned might possibly lead him down a dark path where he is falsely accused of a crime and killed by the very forces of justice he’s striven to help throughout his career.

And now Uncle Ben, his father, the man who’s death set him down that path which has cost him so much, the man whom miraculously he can see again for a mere five minutes and whom he would deny almost nothing to is asking him this question. The same question which, if you take a look back above, Doctor Strange was hinting at.

 And it’s a question I think we’ve all asked of ourselves at one point or another. Hell you could go so far as to say it’s a question which hits right at the heart of life itself.

 And in this milestone issue set on the anniversary of his very birth, Peter Parker tells the one man he could never lie to (and by extension the readers as a whole) that...yes.

 Actually, despite all his suffering and talk of the ‘Parker Luck’, he feels he is very lucky and ultimately happy.

 And that my friends is why the commenter was so very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very wrong in his assessment of this scene being unimportant and banal.

 How on Earth could a scene which forces Spider-Man to take a hard look at his life, a life which he’s just revisited the worst highlights of, a life which has been published across 40+ years, and emerge saying that he is deep down happy and content, be meaningless?

 How could it be anything even resembling banal?

 That my friends is why for all it’s flaws and despite maybe not being enough of a milestone, Amazing Spider-Man #500 is most definitely a GOOD Spider-Man comic.

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Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

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Source: https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

[aretia]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

Recent Posts

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Source: https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

[michaeljames1221]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

Recent Posts

Can I Use A Logo For Personal Use?

Corporate Lawyer Lehi Utah

Trusts Or Special Power Of Appointment

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from Michael Anderson https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

from Criminal Defense Lawyer West Jordan Utah https://criminaldefenselawyerwestjordanutah.wordpress.com/2019/10/02/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

[asafeatherwould]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

Recent Posts

Can I Use A Logo For Personal Use?

Corporate Lawyer Lehi Utah

Trusts Or Special Power Of Appointment

Divorce Tax Tips

Qualified Personal Residence Trusts

Are Probate Records Online?

Source: https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

[mayarosa47]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

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from https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

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Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

Recent Posts

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Source: https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/

[melissawalker01]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

Ascent Law LLC

4.9 stars – based on 67 reviews

Recent Posts

Can I Use A Logo For Personal Use?

Corporate Lawyer Lehi Utah

Trusts Or Special Power Of Appointment

Divorce Tax Tips

Qualified Personal Residence Trusts

Are Probate Records Online?

from Michael Anderson https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/ from Divorce Lawyer Nelson Farms Utah https://divorcelawyernelsonfarmsutah.tumblr.com/post/188083019190

[divorcelawyergunnisonutah]

Bankruptcy Lawyer Midway Utah

Even with a budget and careful spending, most people at some time in their lives will end up needing a loan. It may be to buy a home, pay for school, expand a business, or restructure their debt. The larger the loan, the more intimidating the process, although even credit card applications are a form of a small loan.

The easy availability of credit cards, consumer loans, and easy payment plans has made consumer debt one of the most serious financial threats facing Americans today. College students are among the most vulnerable targets for credit card recruiters who make it sound like they are offering free money. But that free money must be repaid with interest.

Student loan debt is a major problem facing many Americans. Many of us tend to believe that a student loan is just like any other loan. The bitter truth is – It’s Not. You can get rid of most loan debts. They can be discharged in bankruptcy. They cannot be collected once the statute of limitation for that debt has expired. A student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is no statute of limitation on student debt collection. If you are unable to pay of your debts including student loan debts, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will explain your options and help you get some relief. In some cases, you may be able to discharge the whole or a portion of a student loan debt.

Financial Problems During Repayment, and Options

At one point or another during student loan repayment, many if not most borrowers will face periods of unemployment and other financial difficulties that limit their ability to make their scheduled loan payments. Congress mandates that forbearances or deferments be made available to the borrowers during these times. While an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer cannot get you forbearance or deferment, he will be able to guide you through the process and if you don’t succeed, he can assist you with your bankruptcy filing.

Loan Cancellation

There are at least some provisions in federal law for the cancellation of federally guaranteed student loan debt, and it is important for the borrowers to be aware of this. A provision applies if the borrower becomes totally and permanently disabled. This requires an approved doctor’s certification of the total and permanent disability. Often, the loan holder will use his or her own doctor to provide a second opinion, and this is the cause of frequent disputes. Disability discharge is rarely granted, since the “total and permanent” caveat means exactly that. A short term disability is insufficient. Many borrowers who have been granted disability benefits are rudely surprised when they find that their disability income is being garnished.

There is also a provision for loan cancellation under the “ability to benefit” clause. Examples of this given by the U.S. Department of Education include a school admitting a student who did not satisfy the application requirements for ability to benefit from the training, such as if the student did not possess a high school diploma or GED and had not taken an ATB test. Another example is if a school signed the student’s name without that student’s authorization on the loan application or promissory note. This provision also allows cancellation if the borrower had a physical, mental, or legal status or condition at the time of enrollment that would legally bar employment in their field of study. Finally, this provision provides for loan cancellation if the student was the victim of identity theft.

School closure is also an important and legitimate basis for loan cancellation. The students attending a school that has shut down would have been granted loan cancellation had their loans been federally guaranteed. One note of caution here: schools that close will often graduate students just prior to closing so that they are able to say that they fulfilled their duty to the student.

One Approach for Avoiding Default

If a borrower is unable to work with a loan holder to convince the company to approve the deferment or forbearance application, there is one method for ensuring that the loan does not default. According to the Higher Education Act of 1965 (HEA), a loan is not considered to be in default unless no payment has been made on the loan for 270 days. Thus, if a borrower makes any payment—even for an insignificant amount—on the loan at least every 269 days, then legally the loan cannot be in default. While this method can and does indeed work, as borrowers have reported, it does not prevent interest from accruing on the loan, and it does not prevent other fees (for example, late fees) from being attached to the debt. However, borrowers should be aware of this information, and in the event that a loan is bordering on default and the lender refuses to grant the deferments or forbearance that is required, a nominal payment—sent by registered mail—may be the only option to avoid default.

Borrowers who are being hounded by collection companies need to be aware of these potential violations and document them if necessary. All defaulted borrowers interested in protecting their rights should consider acquiring phone recording equipment, which is relatively inexpensive. This is, of course, most effective in states where recorded evidence is admissible in a court of law. If the borrower does not live in a state in which phone recordings are admissible in court, then the borrower does need to announce that the call may be recorded. There are subtle methods for making this announcement that are left to the reader to determine. If none of this is possible, then, at the very least, borrowers should keep an active log of phone calls, notations regarding what was said, and the names that the callers used to identify themselves.

Avoid Dealing with Guarantors and Third-Party Collection Companies There are many middlemen associated with defaulted federal student loans. First, there is the lender who originates the loan. Then there is the guarantor who (supposedly) guarantees the loan against default. Next there are collection companies that the guarantor uses to collect on the defaulted loan. Finally, there is the U.S. Department of Education (or the Department of Health and Human Services for HEAL loans), the organizations that actually provide the guaranty for the loan when it defaults. All of these entities combine to present a confusing, intimidating, and, ultimately, expensive front that the borrower must contend with.

Most defaulted borrowers resign themselves to dealing with the guarantors and their collection companies. Regardless of the circumstances of default, there is typically no negotiating with the guarantor or the collection company. The borrower is forced, through rehabilitation, wage garnishment, or other mechanisms, to ultimately repay a much larger amount than the originally defaulted loan. Borrowers can and do exert significant time and effort attempting to deal with ombudsmen who work for the guarantors, and this effort is almost always wasted.

If a borrower is unwilling or unable to comply with the demands put upon him by the guarantor, there is another option that is used occasionally. The borrower can demand that the loans be transferred directly to the true guarantor of the loan, the U.S. Department of Education. By making this demand, the borrower can at least get the loan out of the hands of the state guarantor agency and perhaps be able to negotiate a more favorable outcome.

Bankruptcy

Many people consider bankruptcy filing as the last resort. Bankruptcy filing will get rid of most debts. However, student loan debts have a special place in bankruptcy. While it is extremely difficult to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy proceedings, there are circumstances under which it can be done. In general, the bankruptcy courts use a three-prong test to determine whether a student loan debt is eligible for discharge. One test is the answer to this question: Would the borrower be able to maintain a minimal standard of living if forced to repay the loan? This test often uses the monthly payments that would be made under the income-contingent repayment program. The second test requires that there be evidence that the hardship is likely to continue for a significant portion of the loan-repayment period. The third test is whether or not the borrower made good-faith efforts to repay the loan before he or she filed for bankruptcy (usually this means that the borrower has been in repayment for some time). For most borrowers who have at least basic means, such as the ability to work, student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Consult with an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know if your student loan debt can be discharged by bankruptcy. Chances are it may be.

Portions of Private Loans May Be Dischargeable in Bankruptcy

As a practical matter, people who obtained private loans well beyond their means to repay should realize that under the new federal bankruptcy code, although private loans were reclassified and are treated in the same manner as federally guaranteed loans, there is a caveat: As defined by the new legislation, the portion of the private loan that is largely exempt from bankruptcy protections is only that portion that was used to pay for the cost of attendance at the university. This includes tuition, room and board, and school supplies such as books, papers, and other expenses directly related to attending college. Other expenses do not qualify by the IRS definition, and thus cannot be considered a “qualified education loan.” In layman’s terms: If you took out a private loan and used the money for anything other than the cost of attendance of the college, then by law, this amount should be treated like any other type of debt for the purposes of inclusion in bankruptcy proceedings and be fully dischargeable according to current bankruptcy laws. However, be warned that your private student loan company will fight it out in the bankruptcy court. They will claim that it’s a student loan and that you have used it for cost of attending college. That’s another reason why you should not file your bankruptcy petition without the assistance of an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. Your bankruptcy lawyer knows how to deal with such private student loan companies in the bankruptcy court and help you discharge such loans. Seek the assistance of an expert – an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

There are different types of student loans. Some of these loans may be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer.

You can discharge most debts by filing for bankruptcy. However, some debts besides a student loan debt also survive bankruptcy. These include child support payments, tax debts and other court ordered payments. Speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to know which of your debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Automatic Stay

Once you file a bankruptcy petition, an automatic stay comes into operation. There is no need to obtain an order for the automatic stay. It comes into operation the moment you file you file bankruptcy petition. Once this automatic stay comes into operation, your creditors and debt collectors cannot contact you. You will be relieved from their calls. You will have peace of mind. If they call or contact you, direct them to your experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer. The lawyer will deal with them and ensure that they pay for violating the automatic stay.

Credit Score

Before you file for bankruptcy under any chapter, speak to an experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer to understand how bankruptcy can affect your credit score. Bankruptcy generally has an adverse impact on your credit score. It will remain on your credit for 10 years in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and for 7 years if you filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But there are steps you can take to improve your credit score once you receive a bankruptcy discharge. An experienced Midway Utah bankruptcy lawyer can advise you on how you can improve your credit score after bankruptcy.

Midway Utah Bankruptcy Attorney Free Consultation

When you need bankruptcy help, please call Ascent Law LLC at (801) 676-5506 for your Free Consultation. We want to help you.

Ascent Law LLC 8833 S. Redwood Road, Suite C West Jordan, Utah 84088 United States Telephone: (801) 676-5506

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from Michael Anderson https://www.ascentlawfirm.com/bankruptcy-lawyer-midway-utah/