#noble savage trope

[spot-the-antisemitism]

it is, you seem to have some very interesting opinions on arabs. care to expand on them? or will you deflect?

I don’t actually have opinions on arabs as a people because I don’t generalize

I just said arabs colonized Israel and hamas will kill every Gazan to get it back from Jews

I suppose anything short of converting to Islam or Christianity, denouncing jews is seen as deflection by you guys

and by you guys i mean tankies

I know you’re a lily white tankie white savior behind the keyboard by the way you speak of ‘the arabs’.

[jewish-microwave-laser]

And here is the most devastating fact of Frank's posthumous success, which leaves her real experience forever hidden: we know what she would have said, because other people have said it, and we don't want to hear it.

The line most often quoted from Frank's diary are her famous words, "I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart." These words are "inspiring," by which we mean that they flatter us. They make us feel forgiven for those lapses of our civilization that allow for piles of murdered girls—and if those words came from a murdered girl, well, then, we must be absolved, because they must be true. That gift of grace and absolution from a murdered Jew (exactly the gift that lies at the heart of Christianity) is what millions of people are so eager to find in Frank's hiding place, in her writings, in her "legacy." It is far more gratifying to believe that an innocent dead girl has offered us grace than to recognize the obvious: Frank wrote about people being "truly good at heart" before meeting people who weren't. Three weeks after writing those words, she met people who weren't.

Here's how much some people dislike living Jews: they murdered 6 million of them. This fact bears repeating, as it does not come up at all in Anne Frank's writings. Readers of her diary are aware that the author was murdered in a genocide, but this does not mean that her diary is a work about genocide. If it were, it is unlikely that it would have been anywhere near as universally embraced.

We know this, because there is no shortage of writings from victims and survivors who chronicled this fact in vivid detail, and none of those documents have achieved anything like Frank's diary's fame. Those that have come close have only done so by observing those same rules of hiding, the ones that insist on polite victims who don't insult their persecutors The work that came closest to achieving Frank's international fame might be Elie Wiesel's Night, a memoir that could be thought of as a continuation of Frank's diary, recounting the tortures of a fifteen-year-old imprisoned in Auschwitz. As the scholar Naomi Seidman has discussed, Wiesel first published his memoir in Yiddish, under the title And the World Was Silent. The Yiddish book told the same story told in Night, but it exploded with rage against his family's murderers and, as the title implies, the entire world whose indifference (or active hatred) made those murders possible. With the help of the French Catholic Nobel laureate François Mauriac, Wiesel later published a French version under the new title La Nuit—a work that repositioned the young survivor's rage into theological angst. After all, what reader would want to hear about how this society had failed, how he was guilty? Better to blame G[-]d. This approach earned Wiesel a Nobel Peace Prize, as well as, years later, selection for Oprah's Book Club, the American epitome of grace. It did not, however, make teenage girls read his book in Japan, the way they read Frank's. For that he would have had to hide much, much more.

from "Everyone's (Second) Favorite Dead Jew" in People Love Dead Jews by Dara Horn, pp 9–10

[xclowniex]

I tried to ask spot-the-antisemitism but he went off on me for some reason and I don’t know why. So I’m just gonna ask you because I know you’re friends with her. Do you think Jujusjunk is going back to her old ways? I get that she’s been through a lot and I mean, hell she lived through a war I can’t imagine myself surviving but I mean, she’s changed a lot these past few months. I keep her and her family in my prayers always but she’s been on my mind alot recently. Do you think she’ll go back to being a hamasnik or go back to the juju we love? Also she hasn’t been rude to anyone, like at all. She still has frequent conversations but her points have changed and she’s posted some triggering posts. That’s all. I don’t mean this in a bad way I was just looking for how people she’s directly spoken to think. Nothing too big. I don’t get why he got mad.

I am going to explain to you why they went off on you as they were right to do so. I am going to be as respectful as I can when doing so as you are asking why you got a negative reaction.

She is a literal child, who was born in Jordan and either lived or currently lives in Lebanon, idk if she returned yet or not.

She is from two countries, which are not favourable towards Israel or jews. And this isn't even touching on the fact that she is Palestinian. Whilst palestinians aren't inherently antisemitic and assuming so is bigoted, she has mentioned before that her parents very much are of the group who are.

The rhetoric you are surronded by does very much influence you. She has literally done more than white liberals in the US to unpack all the antisemitism she is surronded by.

De-influencing yourself from harmful ideologies is not a linear journey, especially when you are palestinian and living/lived in Lebanon.

The wording of your ask gives off the vibe that you view juju as some blorbo palestinin muslim who you only play with when she does the thing you want her to do. She is not a toy, she is a human being, with complex thoughts and feelings. Whether or not that was your intention, that is the vibe your ask to me and your ask to @spot-the-antisemitism gives off.

The real red flag in your ask is the "Do you think she’ll go back to being a hamasnik or go back to the juju we love?"

That bit right there gives off the vibe there that your support for her unlearning antisemitic rhetoric, is contingent on her being at a certain point.

It is also extremely offensive that you are calling a palestinian who is putting in the hard work to unlearn antisemitism, a hamasnik. It is concerning how quickly it seems that you are able to get to that point. I want to be clear, that I am not saying that palestinians can never support hamas, as some do, the issue is with the fact that you jump to it so quickly, and ignore all the evidence which proves otherwise.

That bit also gives off the vibe that you do not view her as a real breathing and living human being.

In regards to the triggering posts, again she is a child working through a lot of complex thoughts and feelings. Even if she was an adult, my point still stands. When you ar working through the type of stuff she is, you are going to make triggering posts, comments, etc.

You are allowed to be offended or triggered by it, but the solution isn't to go "well she must be a terrible person now". The solution is to unfollow either temporarily for permently. You are responsible for curating your experience online.

Essentially, the vibe of your ask is that you expect juju to be this perfect person who is unpacking their antisemitism in a way which is digestible to you, and that is a messed up thing to think.

[hilacopter]

Who gives a fuck what you feel as if you don't despise arabs and islam.

ah, you got me there anon 😔 you're right, I'm an Islamophobic Arabophobic asshole because I view them as people capable of thinking and making rational decisions instead of what we all know they ACTUALLY are: quirky desert people who drink sand and wear funny clothes and have to kill Israelis because they simply don't know any better!!!/s

in all seriousness I assume you're talking about me condemning Hamas because I literally haven't said anything against Palestinian civilians or civilians of any other Arab country (nor am I here). I'm not against Islam, I'm not against Arabs, I'm against an extremist terrorist group who wants me and my family dead. and it just so happens that this group is Muslim and Arab! You know how ProPals always insist criticism of the Israeli government isn't antisemitic (a true statement I wish they'd actually deliver on)? you're basically applying the opposite of that logic here. criticism of Hamas is Islamophobic because, well, they're Muslims! and not treating every Muslim as perfect human being capable of doing no wrong is Islamophobic, actually. istg the way you people talk about Muslims and Arabs is so utterly dehumanising. ever heard of the noble savage trope?

[spot-the-antisemitism]

https://archive.vn/nxKMz

Rather old, posted right after the 7 October Massacre

[image description: art of a Jewish woman and a Muslim woman shaking hands. Between them is a sun with text in it. The text reads: “Being Jewish is not the same as being a Zionist! Our own history of persecution as Jews helps us to understand and support the struggle of the Palestinians to determine their own destiny.” ]

Yes, reconciliation is important but they are really going on the wrong footing here

I love how the Jewish woman has no religious symbols because hamasniks see thoss as inherently Zionist and the Muslims woman is wearing a Keffiyeh as a hijab and is armed because the only good Muslim to hamasnik is a literal terrorist

intersting insight on who they see as the only good jew and the only good Muslim

[jewish-microwave-laser]

I eventually came to understand the profound insult inherent in the messages I was receiving, both directly and indirectly, from readers expecting uplifting Jewish literature full of moments of grace—not to me as a novelist, but to my ancestors who endured experiences like those I gave to my characters, and in a sense, to al those who have endured the most atrocious moments of Jewish history. Readers who demand "coherence" from literature about the modern Jewish experience were essentially insisting that Jewish suffering was only worth examining if it provided, in the words of my reader's memorable message, "a service to mankind." In retrospect I am stunned by how long it took me to understand just how hateful this was. Consider, as I only very slowly did, what this demand really entails. Dead Jews are supposed to teach us about the beauty of the world and the wonders of redemption—otherwise, what was the point of killing them in the first place? That's what dead Jews are for! If people were going to read about dead Jews, where was the service to mankind I owed them?

This is far from a fringe attitude among contemporary readers, as just about every bestselling Holocaust novel of our current century makes fantastically clear. Holocaust novels that have sold millions of copies both in the United States and overseas in recent years are all "uplifting," even when they include the odd dead kid. The Tattooist of Auschwitz, a recent international mega-bestseller touted for its "true story," manages to present an Auschwitz that involves a heartwarming romance. Sarah's Key, The Book Thief, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, and many other bestsellers, some of which have even become required reading in schools, all involve non-Jewish rescuers who risk or sacrifice their own lives to save hapless Jews, thus inspiring us all. (For the record, the number of actual "righteous Gentiles" officially recognized by Yad Vashem, Israel's national Holocaust museum and research center, for their efforts in rescuing Jews from the Holocaust is under 30,000 people, out of a European population at the time of nearly 300 million—or 0.01 percent. Even if we were to assume that the official recognition is an undercount by the factor of a thousand, such people remain essentially a rounding error.) In addition to their wonderful non-Jewish characters, these books are almost invariably populated by the sort of relatable dead Jews whom readers can really get behind: the mostly non-religious, mostly non-Yiddish-speaking ones whom noble people tried to save, and whose deaths therefore teach us something beautiful about our shared and universal humanity, replete with epiphanies and moments of grace. Statistically speaking, this was not the experience of almost any Jews who endured the Holocaust. But for literature in non-Jewish languages, that grim reality is both inconvenient and irrelevant.

from "Fictional Dead Jews" in People Love Dead Jews by Dara Horn, pp 79–81

[spot-the-antisemitism]

Guys, its time to face it. You werent a victim during oct 7th, you were throwing a rave outside a massive open air prison they built for brown people. Its the consequences of colonialism coming back...

Your own blog has the better own than I could ever think of. someone is so mad Destiel didn’t kiss they’re harrasing randos online

some tankie is already crying their white tears guys

and no I wasn’t a victim on October 7th because I’m not Israeli

Shocker not everyone who cares about antisemitism is Israeli or a former hostages

“open air concentration camp” canard

“Jews are white and Palestinians are brown” canard

[jewish-microwave-laser]

The audio guide humbly speculates about who these people might have been: "She might have been a housewife or a factory worker or a musician..." The idea isn't subtle: this woman could be you. But to make her you, we have to deny that she was actually herself. These musings turn people into metaphors, and it slowly becomes clear to me that this is the goal. Despite doing absolutely everything right, this exhibition is not that different from Human Bodies, full of anonymous dead people pressed into service to teach us something.

At the end of the show, on-screen survivors talk in a loop about how people need to love one another. While listening to this, it occurs to me that I have never read survivor literature in Yiddish—the language spoken by 80 percent of victims—suggesting this idea. In Yiddish, speaking only to other Jews, survivors talk about their murdered families about their destroyed centuries-old communities, about Jewish national independence, about Jewish history, about self-defense, and on rare occasions, about vengeance. Love rarely comes up; why would it? But it comes up here, in this for-profit exhibition. Here it is the ultimate message, the final solution.

That the Holocaust drives home the importance of love is an idea, like the idea that Holocaust education prevents antisemitism, that seems entirely unobjectionable. It is entirely objectionable. The Holocaust didn't happen because of a lack of love. It happened because entire societies abdicated responsibility for their own problems, and instead blamed them on the people who represented—have always represented, since they first introduced the idea of commandedness to the world—the thing they were most afraid of: responsibility.

Then, as now, Jews were cast in the role of civilization's nagging mothers, loathed in life, and loved only once they are safely dead. In the years since I walked through Auschwitz at fifteen, I have become a nagging mother. And I find myself furious, being lectured by this exhibition about love—as if the murder of millions of people was actually a morality play, a bumper sticker, a metaphor. I do not want my children to be someone else's metaphor. (Of course, they already are.)

from "Blockbuster Dead Jews" in People Love Dead Jews by Dara Horn, pp. 190–191

[ravenkings]

[gooboogy]

i thought they named the ships Terror and Erebus in the show for the symbolism and drama but the ships were actually called that??? talk about a self fulfilling prophecy lmao??

[northern-passage]

I came across the character Branwen* in my most recent play-through and was curious if she's supposed to be Inuit or not? It was just a bit unclear since she has a chin-stripe tattoo, a Welsh name, and comes from Gael (which I'm under the impression is supposed to be Norse inspired?) Neither the Welsh/Celts or Norse had tattoos like these and the imagery of such comes from the appropriation of Inuit kakiniit. It's unfortunately common, especially in the fantasy genre, think Yasha from Critical Role, and I wouldn't really blame you for not yet knowing better. Misguided or not, it's very damaging since these tattoos are a closed practice, and Inuit have asked us not to use them for non-indigenous characters. Some other cultures have similar tattoos, but these are specifically what are appropriated from in the "Norse aesthetic".

This could be a great opportunity to represent a community that's regularly misrepresentationed and appropriated from in the genre, though! I don't believe you had any ill intentions, if this is a mistake you've made, since you've done really well about a lot of other things so far.

Also, I've done a lot of research on the topic for my own world building and I can try to help if you have any questions!

Here's a list of Inuk creators and artists from my own following (on TikTok specifically):

kadlun

willow.allen

notdayle

shinanova

And fairy.gothparent (not indigenous) has some really educational content on the subject also!

I'm sorry I've misread or misinterpreted anything, and I hope none of this came off as aggressive! I'm just genuinely curious and want to help others do better!

hi :-) no worries, you are not aggressive at all. Branwen is not meant to be Inuit, nor is she meant to be Welsh or Norse. Gael and Adrania are just Fantasy Lands with their own lore & culture-- but with that being said, i am fully aware that the setting for TNP is very much giving medieval Europe, hahahaha. regardless, when i choose names they are mainly just because i like them, so i wouldn't put too much stock in them when reading.

same thing when i designed Branwen, the tattoo was mostly for the aesthetic and because i liked it. i was aware of a few different types of indigenous tattoos (like the Māori tāmoko as well as the Inuit kakiniit) at the time i chose the thick, solid line because i was purposefully trying to avoid conflating it directly with those indigenous tattoos. you're the first person to point this out to me and i appreciate it and it has made me reevaluate my decision to give her such a distinct tattoo. i wanted tattoos to be a big part of Gaelish culture & planned for them to be made with heavy lines & geometry, but in the end a lot of the designs are all over the place (Merry's are way more modern due to basing some of the designs around nautical/sailor tattoos with only a few geometric designs, while Lea's are strictly geometric runes meant for their alchemy)

i absolutely want to avoid misrepresenting these tattoos, especially since it was never my intention for this character to be interpreted as a part of any of the mentioned indigenous groups. this is a good reminder for myself that my work does not exist in a vacuum and regardless of my intentions, the names i choose & the designs i make still reflect my own personal biases and have implications outside of my story.

i appreciate you messaging me and sharing resources. and i always want to encourage people to do so! especially because in my worldbuilding for Gael and Adrania i am pulling inspiration from a lot of different places and a lot of other fantasy media. i've always intended for Adrania to be a "melting pot," with a lot of different influences as in-game cultures converge around their ports & trade routes, but that can also lead to me unintentionally harming real world groups & cultures in my interpretations. as much as i want to "build from scratch" it's just not possible, i will always be influenced by the society i live in, hence me including the tattoo to begin with because you're right, i have seen similar designs in other fantasy media & just didn't think much about it.

going forward i'll most likely just remove that tattoo from Branwen's design, and maybe give her a neck tattoo instead 🤔 just something different to distinguish it from those indigenous designs.

[tearlessrain]

I mean years ago I really hoped that we might get some coherent dalish lore in this game that actually treated them with some measure of respect, and I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt that maybe people were right and the weird handling of their culture and beliefs thus far was a setup that would pay off when the veil crumbles and shit goes down and we see more of both the dalish and tevinter, and then we'd get some cool deconstruction of both the dalish gods AND the maker/andraste.

but that was years ago and by roughly the third time they re-announced the game I was starting to suspect that development had passed out of the hands of anyone who would give a shit about lore and setting and story payoff long ago.

and based on what people are saying so far it looks like that's true.

[randomnameless]

what do you of people who think that pointing out how problematic claude and almyra are in the fodlan games is racist?

?

You mean people who think you are racist for noticing that Claude and Almyra in general were written with the worst orientalist clichés from the early 1810s?

As a rule of thumb, I don't believe you can determine if someone is racist or not based on their opinion of fictional characters -

That being said, there's a difference between saying "I think Devdan sucks" and whatever goes down in the chamber pot, using real world rhetoric about "invasive species" and whatnot to throw shade at fictional characters you don't like.

@gascon-en-exil made a Tellius video about Devdan's uh... well, Devdan in general in Tellius and the wtf that was Devdan in a game released in the 2000s, internationally released at that - and fwiw, some youtube comments talked about minstrel shows and how Devdan reminded them of those shows so, I definitely think pointing Devdan's entire existence - down to his concept - isn't racist in itself, you're not committing robbery when you're trying to prevent one.

About Claude and Almyra in general as depicted in Fodlan...

Well, in FE16 the game basically told us that Almyrans - in the Cyril/Hilda paralogue - are people who enjoy senseless bloodbathes (they raid the border for funsies and feast and party if they're able to return home ffs!) and while they might have different values (which is not a bad thing in itself!), they are the kind of people to turn tail and flee even if it means leaving their allies die (what Claude expected Hilda to do in CF!) or their civilian randoms (Cyril was caught by Goneril forces when they raided their camp).

You can't fight anymore when you're dead, so running away isn't always the worst solution, and yet, the way it's depicted (in CF for tears, in VW to shit on Nader) in the game, it's not supposed to be something we see as good/nice/has relevance.

In Nopes Shahid mounts the greastest invasion the Locket has ever known... to show his dad that he has muhrit too and can attack the "cowards" so plz stop mopping about the son who left without writing a letter.

Aka, Almyra sends its troops to invade Fodlan... in a penis measuring contest for the throne.

Yeah.

However, everything falls apart when we play GW's second part.

Now Nader wants to bring "souvenirs" from the war, by - and it's Lorenz who tells us ffs, not Claude, but Lorenz which has all sorts of implications - pillaging the cities they will be conquering.

Claude asks his dad to give him the Almyran Navy - and by ask I mean Nader has him sign the paper while he's half asleep, a bit like what your random kid does when school asks for a parent's written authorisation, you hang the damn paper to your parent while they're doing something else so they sign without really thinking - for his personal fight in Fodlan that consists in...

Killing the CoS? Yes, but also, and more importantly, to get rid of Fodlan's "outdated" values basically by tearing apart the country/its borders.

In a nutshell, in Nopes, FE16!Hilda's racist stereotypes about Almyrans and Almyra are... confirmed.

To sum up, canonwise, Fodlan depicts Almyrans as people who love needless bloodbathes, who prey on the country they're agressing "for fun!" when it's at its lowest point to mount a serious and real invasion to 1/score points in the royal inheritence record, or 2/to effectively bring disorder/kill/remove important pillars of that country because they want to change its "values and traditions" while pillaging and massacring the land as they cross it.

My bad, it's not the 1800s rhetoric about "the orient" it's both this, and a side dose of throwing the worst tropes ever like "invading people to bring them civilisa- i mean, a new set of values".

In a way, Fodlan is worse than Tellius in that regard, because while Devdan is, hopefully, a side character you can forget to recruit, Almyra - through Claude - is a compulsory point to play through when you play the Fodlan games.

Like, the devs - graphic devs at least - really researched and designed outfits, not only based on RL cultures, but to give a distinct flair to Almyra (when they couldn't be assed to do the same for the "mainland fodlan" characters), like Claude's outfits always have a detail (at least one when it's not the barbarossa class!) to tell you that this class/character has ties to this other place, Almyra!

Surely you'd want to know what Almyra is about, right?

:')

And then you learn and wonder, Echoes didn't bother to draw specific outfits reminding the player of RL cultures gor Grieth or the Brigand Boss, so what was Fodlan thinking when they gave those outfits to Claude and Nader? What kind of associations are you supposed to make?

Are we back in the "Kaga said the land of bandits who kidnap to most likely seduce without consent ladies was inspired by Persia? What the actual fuck?" era?

In a way, depicting Almyrans as the "bloodthirsty people who pillage as they go" is, imo, as offensive as Martin's Dothrakis, I don't think you are, or anyone is, racist for pointing it out.

[spot-the-antisemitism]

100 usd says you can't say something about Muslims that isn't super fucking racist

Islam is a religion like any other and Muslims are people like any other

the real Islamophobia is deciding that a few acts paints the whole religion badly and so you must either bomb the practitioners to glass or deny the transgressions entirely

you act like the only extremes are apologia and genocide, you are wrong

please donate 100 usd to my paypal as listed in my bio

[angryjewishcockroach]

#it's because leftists think arabs are poor dumb camel-riding savages who don't know any better than to rape and kill#if they actually gave a fuck about muslims they'd condemn the terror regimes that oppress them#but they hate jews more than they care about arabs/muslims (via sephardigf)

Getting called Islamophobic for condemning the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah is truly, truly tone deaf.

So you're saying to me that you think the likes of Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation responsible for massacring, raping, and torturing civilians, and oppressing and brutalising their *own* people represent the beliefs and views of almost 2 billion Muslims in the world and you have the audacity to call others Islamophobic?!

Just say you think Muslims can't be expected to behave better and go, and take your reprehensible noble savage shit with you.

[jewish-microwave-laser]

btw there is no liberation for palestinians until you're able to understand that they are a nuanced group of people. if you ignore that there are people in palestine who have done horrible things, who have and continue to lie, who genuinely believe some of the most fucked up shit out there; then once all of this is over and the dust settles and there is time to look into the facts of what actually happened during the war, your image of Every Palestinian Ever as the pitiable noble savage will be shattered. you'll lose the motivation to keep all eyes on palestine, and as you move onto other things, palestinians will still be dealing with generations of trauma and poverty and the impossibility of finding a peaceful resolution to everything

i just hope you don't treat them with the same amount of hatred you started treating jews once we stopped being your pet minority on october 7