#no thoughts only cliff

[differenteagletragedy]

Hey not the same anon but I saw the Cliff HCS and was curious if you had any more thoughts on the possible little sibling for cove you mentioned in the first ones. I’d imagine it would definitely be an unplanned ordeal with how I see Cliff at least(obviously okay if you see differently! But the guy just had his own little guy grow up and leave the nest so I can’t see baby 2: electric bungaloo being planned) but I just have this image in my head of both Cliff and (his ofc)MC freaking out because they think MC is dying, rushing to the hospital and getting back a “not dying, just pregnant” and both of them going “oh. OH!” (1/2)

This was a two-parter! Here's the rest:

But yeah! Plus only-child-turned-big-brother Cove is such a fun concept to because while there’s probably a lot of emotions™️ there, I just know he cries the first time he holds the nugget. (Also Canon!MC whether dating Cove or not is honorary big sibling as well). But to wrap it up whether you have any ideas or hcs for this idea yourself(absolutely okay if you don’t ofc!) I love the whole dynamic of Cliff’s MC and I hope you have super fun with writing whatever it is you do next!

-- Thank you friend, I will have so much fun! And I have so many thoughts about Cliff doing all the things!

-- So honestly I could see it going either way. By the time Cove turns 18 and moves out, Cliff isn't even 40 yet, he's active and healthy and being a dad is his favorite thing ever, so I could see him planning a second child with you, after he's sure Cove wouldn't be upset by the idea.

-- Some parents would be like "My child is grown now, I am living my own life and if they don't like it then that is sad but I have to live for myself, even if it upsets them." And that is just not Cliff.

-- But Cove wouldn't mind either, it wouldn't have to be some big ordeal. He loves his dad and wants him to be happy, and he knows you make him happy, and it might be fun to have a little sibling, even if they're going to be a very very little to him.

-- Cliff is going to really like the process of trying for a baby. Sorry but it's true, do whatever you want with that.

-- He'd be really active in tracking your ovulation, mapping out the best times to try, all that. And boy does he have a can-do attitude!

-- When you do get pregnant, what a gift you have given him. He is going to be over the moon. He already takes care you you like nobody's business, but you haven't seen anything yet.

-- But a surprise pregnancy is always fun (in fiction lol, be safe out there)! Once he figured out where you were with it, he would also be on cloud nine, pleased as punch, so on and so forth. Because sure, it is a little wild to raise a whole entire person from the time they are born until the time they are an adult then turn around and repeat the process entirely like that, but he's more than up for it.

-- He knows the baby is going to be their own person, and he'd never try to use them as some sort of redemption for himself. But he is still determined to not repeat his old mistakes. He will communicate with you about everything, you will make every important decision together, a team 100%.

-- Cliff is an absolute dreamboat and it's a shame that we don't talk about it more. We're a small enough fandom that we could be having regular meetings to address issues like this.

-- He goes with you to an ultrasound and you're told that the baby is measuring weeks ahead and is going to be a big baby! Cliff is smug. Also hopeful that this one won't outgrow him like Cove did. He likes being a big boy.

-- And then what if the baby comes out tan with blonde hair looking just like him, what about that.

-- Cliff with a newborn is crazy. He is running on fumes but you'd never know it because he's just so damn happy. You know those dads who never change a diaper or insist on not waking up in the night because they need their rest for work. Could NEVER be Cliff.

-- Cove comes to visit at the hospital after the baby is born, he's not really sure how it will feel and he's been a little detached during the pregnancy, not out of any kind of meanness, just because he can't really grasp at that point what this means for his life, you know? But when he meets the baby for the first time, maybe they have a feature or two of his, some kind of familial resemblance, and THAT'S HIS LITTLE BROTHER/SISTER. He's a big brother. Thoughts racing, tears flowing, utter joy unlocked.

-- He is going to be the best big brother the world has ever seen, he is determined. He asks Derek for advice. He researches how to take care of babies. He wants to babysit! So many presents for the baby. So many plans made for every stage of baby's life. Cove is talking to his MC about them renewing their wedding vows one day and if he should ask Cliff to be his best man again or ask the new baby, and MC is like "........"

-- Kyra is involved, that's her baby's baby sibling and she is so happy for Cliff she can't stand it. You have to be cool with Kyra to be with Cliff too, that's a rule, but it's not like it'll be hard.

-- I said this in another one, but it's going to be really important for Cliff to keep the house in Sunset Bird if at all possible. That's where Cove did most of his growing up, and he knows it would be hard on him to lose it. Cove would be totally fine with giving up his old room that he's not ever going to use again for his new baby sibling.

-- Living by the beach, his best friends across the street, his oldest child living nearby and his baby safe in his arms, and you, the love of his life, by his side through all of it. What a life Cliff has.

[letsplaythermalnuclearwar]

tbh I think Calypso views herself as Odysseus's rest and reward. like, she's the comfort in a hurt/comfort fic. she's the therapy saga. and honestly, a lot of her actions make sense when you look at it like that.

Odysseus is traumatised and scared and hurting. and she understands that. she's so understanding that she doesn't take it personally when he yells or screams or begs -- trauma makes it hard to regulate emotions, after all. he'll calm down in a little bit.

she's so understanding that she's not even hurt when he rejects her advances. he's been alone for so long that he's scared to intimacy now. but she doesn't let that discourage her. he'll get used to the idea eventually.

she's so understanding that she doesn't give up on him, even when he talks and talks and talks about his wife and son. obviously he wants to go back to them, but what he wants isn't what's good for him. that's fine, he doesn't need to know what's good for him yet. that's what she's for.

she's so understanding that she doesn't even let it upset her too much when Ody stands too close to the edge and stares out at sea below like its calling to him. it's okay. she can catch him if he falls.

sure, they're relationship isn't what she's dreamed about for centuries -- real relationships never are that perfect. her Ody has a lot of healing to do. and she'll make sure she's with him through it all.

[fictionadventurer]

Slumber party question! What's your earliest memory of encountering beauty? The first thing you can recall where you looked at something and were struck by how beautiful it was?

[bitchmael]

extremely half-formed thoughts hours but i like that black sails as a "villain origin story" (as it were) for long john silver, one of the most storied pirates there is (because among other things he's entirely fictional), shows us a series of pirate captains who have constructed larger-than-life personae for themselves to feature as the monsters in other people's stories, and shows us the (almost always) deeply personally painful histories that went into making them and then refuses to give us that for long john silver. he's not a monster from a children's story but nor does he have the kind of compelling personal history of (say) flint or vane or rackham or anne bonny. he's just fundamentally selfish in a way that's ultimately pretty banal & ordinary imo, but he's put into this position where his selfishness is able to exert a massive influence on the people around him that makes him seem like more than he is. & btw i don't mean this as like a criticism of his character i think it works really well. what if evil were just boring. what then.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Wei Wuxian and Narrative Agency – Part Three

For Xiantober Day Five: Past and Present, in which the author gets very unhinged about what parts of the past are shown and how that’s affected by the present!

(Part One | Part Two | Full version on AO3)

The Power of Agency: Shaping the Narrative

When I've discussed Wei Wuxian's agency previously, I’ve talked about how what’s shown and omitted tells us about a character, and we’ve talked about the character himself. Though this is a niche topic, it’s not necessarily something out of the ordinary to analyse, and we can assume everything up to here has been in some way intentional.

This? Linking structure to a character’s in-universe preferences?

This is where we get unhinged.

Before I start, let’s quickly establish something which will be important later: although Wei Wuxian is the central character, MDZS isn’t strictly from his POV. While omitting events a character doesn’t like to dwell on and concealing things the character wishes to hide is common in books with only one narrator, MDZS has multiple narrators which it switches between relatively quickly. This includes Wei Wuxian, but it also includes nearly every major character that appears in the story, and omniscient narrator as well. As a default, this format doesn’t lead to this deliberate shaping and omission because of one character’s preferences, since we have many other sources of information and events – which is what makes Wei Wuxian’s influence over the narrative and structure so interesting. We could have access to a lot more information, and access to it at different times, than we do (and that’s not an insult, quite the opposite!).

To begin: we’ve established that times such as Wei Wuxian’s time on the streets, his three months in the Burial Mounds and his loss in the Siege aren’t shown because Wei Wuxian has little agency there. But that’s not the only special thing about them. They’re also the three most traumatic times in his life, and so moments Wei Wuxian himself either can’t remember, or doesn’t like to dwell on.

This is why discussing Wei Wuxian’s treatment of tragedy in his life was important. Firstly, it shows he doesn’t focus on the tragedy in his life, so the idea that the narrative not focusing on this tragedy relates to his character has merit; secondly, it affirms that this is not a passive trait, but a choice. Therefore, when the narrative omits events due to this aspect of Wei Wuxian, it’s respecting not only a character detail – which would be cool by itself – but also an active decision. One that shapes the story it’s made in.

In other words, its very structure is respecting Wei Wuxian’s agency!

Now, of course there are flashbacks to other moments of his past he probably wouldn’t like to dwell on, too. But within the structure, they’re only shown when Wei Wuxian is thinking about them (or when he has reason to)!

Wei WuXian hadn’t woken up yet. His eyes were still tightly shut, yet his hand didn’t let go either. He seemed to be dreaming, muttering, “… Don’t… Don’t be angry…” Lan WangJi seemed somewhat surprised. His voice was gentle, “I am not angry.” Wei WuXian, “… Oh.” Hearing this, as though he finally felt assured, his fingers loosened. Lan WangJi sat beside Wei WuXian for a while. Seeing that he was motionless again, he was about to stand up when Wei WuXian grabbed him with his other hand, hugging his arm and refusing to let go. He shouted, “I’ll go with you, quick, take me back to your sect!” Chapter 63, EXR translation

Which, of course, is him dwelling on…

Lan WangJi spoke one word at a time, “Go back to Gusu with me.” Hearing this, both Wei WuXian and Jiang Cheng were surprised. Quickly afterward, Wei WuXian laughed, “Go back to Gusu with you? To the Cloud Recesses? Why go there?” He immediately seemed to realize, “Oh. I forgot. Your uncle Lan QiRen hates crooked people like me. You’re his proudest disciple, so of course you’re the same as him, haha. I refuse.” Chapter 62, EXR translation

…the painful flashback immediately preceding this. The third set of flashbacks (which are also painful) are a similar case. Look at the contex:

He lifted the bottom of his robe, revealing a prosthetic leg made of wood, “This leg of mine was destroyed by you, that night in the Nightless City (…)” (…) “Wei WuXian, I won’t ask you if you remember or not. Both of my parents died by your hands. You owe too many people. You definitely won’t remember them either. But, I, Fang MengChen, will never forget! And never forgive you!” (…) “In the fight at Qiongqi Path, my son was strangled to death by your dog Wen Ning!” “My shixiong died by poison, his entire body festering due to your cruel curse!” Chapter 68 (immediately preceding the flashbacks), EXR translation

And Wei Wuxian’s own thoughts and words:

Wei WuXian looked at the cultivators before the Demon-Slaughtering Cave. Their expressions were the absolute same as those of the cultivators from the night of the pledge conference, pouring their wine on the ground as they took the pledge to scatter the ashes of the Wen Sect’s remnants and him.  (…) Wei WuXian, “Now it’s time to ask just whom it is that treasures it so much. It’s like Wen Ning. Back then, some certain sects or so were scared to death of the Ghost General. They said they’d kill him on the surface, but behind their backs they hid him for over ten years. How strange. Who was the one that said his ashes had been scattered back then?” Chapter 79 (immediately succeeding the flashbacks), EXR translation 

Once again, Wei Wuxian’s own thoughts relate to the flashbacks we’ve just been shown. And, as I previously mentioned, though all the events which are shown are tragic, they’re also events which Wei Wuxian’s own choices and actions shaped – which he has this to say about:

“The things I did, not only do you remember them, I remember them too. You won’t forget them, and they’ll stay even longer in my mind!” Chapter 82, EXR

Admittedly, this applies more to the third set of flashbacks than the second (which is still fitting as the third set was the most recent), as in the second, although he still had agency within and influence over his circumstances, the majority of the pain was caused by others’ actions (excluding, of course, the Golden Core transfer… which is something we know stays for a long time in his mind, albeit with a caveat we’ll soon discuss). But it’s still important to note – especially considering that otherwise, focusing on this very painful time in his life wouldn’t seem like something very in-character for Wei Wuxian to do.

Of course, this can all just be explained by good writing. It is best to insert flashbacks when they’re relevant to the characters and events in the present day! But it is interesting to compare these to the start of the (not painful) Gusu flashbacks, which open this way:

At a later time, Wei WuXian pondered upon the reason why his relationship with Lan WangJi wasn’t good. Getting to the root of the matter, everything started when he was fifteen, coming to the GusuLan Sect with Jiang Cheng to study for three months. Chapter 13, EXR

Again, considering the circumstances around which these flashbacks take place – returning to the Cloud Recesses for the first time since the lectures, and meeting Lan Wangji once more – it makes complete sense for Wei Wuxian to be thinking about these events*. So it does fit the pattern of Wei Wuxian dwelling on something, thus leading to the narrative dwelling on it, too (and being shaped by his thoughts)… but there’s another layer to this. Importantly, it is the only flashback where Wei Wuxian’s present thoughts don’t lead to this happening, with his thoughts at an unspecified future time leading to it, instead. I like to interpret this as the text saying that, since these events aren’t something Wei Wuxian wouldn’t focus on in normal circumstances, he can dwell on them at any time. Therefore, they’re free to come up in the narrative at any time as well, even if he’s not dwelling on them in the present moment!

So, to summarise: Wei Wuxian’s decision not to focus on the painful times in his life directly influences the narrative to not focus on these times. When painful times are brought up and shown to us, it’s in the context of him thinking about them in the present day, and even then, his most painful moments still aren’t shown to us. His agency in this regard is still respected by the narrative structure.

This is the main way his agency influences the structure of the narrative, but I’d like to talk about the revealing and concealing of information, too. For example, I said I’d talk about the Golden Core transfer – though Wei Wuxian does think about this many times, as evidenced by his internal narration in Chapter 103. But unlike everything we’re shown through the flashbacks, this is something Wei Wuxian is actively trying to hide from others. And the narrative respects this choice (Wei Wuxian’s agency, again), never reveals it even when it would be relevant in the flashbacks, and we find out not through narration, but through a character’s dialogue!

And to clarify – I know these aspects may not be in the book for this exact reason. Showing flashbacks in relevant moments is good writing, concealing an important plot point you want to do a reveal for is necessary writing, and MXTX has said she didn’t want to write about Wei Wuxian’s time in the Burial Mounds, due to not liking to write transformation sequences (and also because it would not be pleasant at all, which likely also applies to Wei Wuxian’s death). That doesn’t prevent it from also being intentional – MXTX’s intelligence is shown in many aspects of this book, and there’s nothing disproving it – but there’s no proof for either option, so I won’t pretend there is. I bring this up because I know this feels like I’m overanalysing, as I feel that way as well.

But, whether it’s intentional or not, it exists in the text, and I adore it – so, regardless, it’s something I’ll explore. Because taking this into account… We aren't just told about Wei Wuxian having agency, we aren’t just shown it in the text, we aren’t even just shown it through which parts of his past are shown and hidden in the structure of the text (as I talked about in Part One). The parts of the past that are shown and hidden also have an in-universe reason for being shown and hidden, this reason being the choices he makes! Agency is the ability of a character to influence the story they’re in, but Wei Wuxian’s agency, as a property of a character who only exists in-universe, shapes the out-of-universe structure as well! That’s how we’re shown its importance! How cool is that?

At The End Of The Road: Summary and Final Thoughts

In this essay, we’ve covered how important Wei Wuxian’s agency is not only to the events of the plot, but to the structure of the narrative as well. The narrative omits periods in which Wei Wuxian has little or no agency, in favour of showing us periods in which he does, even when important events happened in the former. This indicates that who Wei Wuxian is without agency isn’t important enough to be shown to the audience, and therefore that his agency is an integral aspect of his character in MDZS. We’ve discussed how both in-universe and out-of-universe, tragedy does not define him – out-of-universe, the tragic events in Wei Wuxian’s life are used not to build sympathy but rather to show his strength of character and who he still is despite going through them; and in-universe, he chooses not to focus on the negativity and resentment caused by his circumstances or others’ actions, instead staying true to his moral compass and enjoying his life in the present day. Finally, we’ve also explored how this choice is another reason for the omission of certain events from the narrative, resulting in his agency shaping the story in a very literal way – it affects the out-of-universe structure, as well.

It’s quite fitting, for a story whose essence is about defying a conventional narrative – that of righteous clans rising up and defeating a great evil – and about a character who defies many conventional narratives on his own – that of status defining how skilled you could be, that for a golden core being necessary for cultivation and other paths being unavailable, that of a tragic but complete story of someone killed for staying true to their moral code (instead, that character returns to life and has a happy ending) – to have its own narrative play a role in such an important and interesting way.

(Or, if an image would be preferable:)

Thank you for reading!

(Part One | Part Two | Full version on AO3)

--

*This strong relation to the present day circumstances is another reason I love the flashback placement so much (and why I think it’s such a loss both screen adaptions altered it so strongly)! 

[skitskatdacat63]

This is probably missing some, but here is my “Here me out” cake!! I am open to giving explanations :)

I am tagging @lil-shiro @soup-racing @pitayyaaa @suzuki-ecstar and anyone else who is interested! I just picked people who exprssed interest so I’m not unwilling implicating anyone in this public humiliation ritual sjdkdl

Below are some popsicle stick and cake pngs for ease !!

[evelynpr]

Might be a hot take as a bkdk and tgck truther here, but I find izuocha endlessly fascinating, beautiful, but also tearfully tragic.

I see their love for each other as something representative of their innocence and naivety when they only knew so little about who they were, and what was to come.

I think the main barrier of their relationship is that its rooted in how they see each other very idealistically, specifically that they're attached to the image of their Best Heroic Selves, and not the deeply selfish, destructive, freaky, and egotistical parts of them. To each other, they need to keep fulfilling that image or else that same person they looked up to would almost die in front of them, and that would be too cruel. Although that hero is still there, that same person they looked up to is not the same now because of...well...everything.

Izuku had barely even talked to girls when he first met her. She was Izuku's first ever real friend (Sorry Kats, everyone and him knows he was terrible), so he saved her in that entrance exam even if it was so dangerous. She gave a new meaning to his derogatory nickname just by being a friend that believed in him. After that, she saved him several more times (Blackwhip and Megaphone are the biggest samples iirc). It makes perfect sense that she is Deku's hero.

Ochako hardly knew what it meant to be a hero when she first got into UA. Just by reaching out to some kid tripping, she made a new friend who would then save her in that exam, then save him again in return. This boy then became someone who was always working so hard to save everyone in trouble, and she realized she wanted to be just like him too. "I want to save people"

But...Deku changes. The weight of One for All is on his shoulders and he needs someone to carry this burden with him. He continues to want to save other people at the expense of himself, still not letting his true selfishness and ego ever show- and it only grows more and more unbearable.

Then...Ochako fell in love with Himiko. Truly, relentlessly, selfishly and devotedly in love with a girl who then dies giving her blood to her- the greatest expression of love Himiko could ever give.

Not that they can't love each other because of this happening (and...so many other things oh god), I'm honestly not sure how to explain it- But them ending up together after losing that innocence and naivety? After Ochako will forever grieve the girl who showed her love in its most beautiful and ugly form? After Izuku changed so fundamentally as a person that the butterflies of a nice girl talking to you doesn't exist anymore? After that simple image of being a hero and being in love has completely changed for them both?

Even so, I believe they still love each other. There is no label I know of that can properly describe them though. They are each other's image of being a hero when it comes to saving people. Aside from Shoto, no one else can grasp the grief of the person you tried to save dying in your hands. They would no doubt try to cope with these losses together, and just try to get better together...but so much has changed. They've changed. The world changed. What are they now? Who are they now?

"What happened...to us?"

[darth-sonny]

being a cringe fail loserboy is a family trait

[sluttybibuck]

i love pain 🙃

[ztmachine]

Okay so you know thing where you grab someone's hands and spin them around faster and faster til they lose grip and go flying?

U ever think that sidon and Link would do that on shatterback point (they think it'll be cool), but. Link's grip strength is too strong and he ends up taking Sidon with him.

And so they're there, each with a death grip on the others' hands as they tumble and spin through the air thousands of feet above the water, looking at each other. Just staring for fifteen seconds or so. Sidon pulls Link into a diving position flush with his body just before they hit the water. A red and blue speck hits the water with nary a splash. They surface from their unexpected fall laughing and infatuated...

[umemiyan]

oh btw since i didn’t get to add him in the post earlier because i literally ran out of room: kaiser’s stability levels noticeably decrease even further when he misses me. he’s exponentially cuntier but also has moments where he’s so silent that people are like... afraid lmfao

he tries to throw himself into plays so extra hard until he’s overdoing it and/or having a meltdown because he screwed up until noa or someone calls me like “how quickly can we arrange to get you here???”

[theodimasbabygirl]

Gonna be so honest in saying that it was kind of a let down to NOT have Tobert involved in the murder

[iguessitsjustme]

I know Moo and Kang are kind and forgiving and wonderful human beings. I’m not though. Shone is getting pushed right off thr cliff.

If you answer “not me” congrats on being a good person. You are so much better than I am. But also if you ever need a mean friend to deal with someone for you, congrats, I’m your friend now.

[bitchwholikesshitposting]

Fucking love the idea of the chassis being an amplifier because you kinda get the best of both worlds from the whole chassis theory argument where wheatley's still being influenced but you keep the complexity of his character intact, plus you get the double whammy existential crisis of being driven to do horrible things but still having to deal with the fact after you come to your senses that no matter which way you look at it was still all you. In this essay I will

Ignore the giant rant in the tags its 1 AM

[gaesnek]

NO ONE TOLD ME RON STAMPLER WAS IN HILDA

I CAN'T TELL YOU WHO HE IS IN THE STORY BC DECENTLY BIG SPOILERS(gowatchhildaitsareallygoodshowandmovieandthenbacktoshowiprommisepleaseitssofuckinggood)BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IVE ALWAYS THOUGHT RON LOOKED LIKE

sure it's not THAT similar BUT IT'S (glenn) CLOSE ENOUGH FOR ME

[averlym]

,,, little lemmings in line...