#nice to know fandom is still misogynistic af

[kizunatallis]

Gretchen Cutler, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane, Leslie Knope, April Ludgate, Kim Wexler, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, Aloy, Katniss Everdeen

Name ten female characters you like, you get zapped if it's jsut a male character you call a babygirl or other feminine nicknames because I can't see people calling Lestat coquette again

[janiedean]

I feel bad for all the nice J*nsa shippers who like their ship for whatever reasons (tropes, pretty art, aesthetic appeal, whatever) and know it's not canon but get associated with the misogynistic Dany hating crowd who act like Jon being attracted to Ygritte is J*nsa foreshadowing because red hair (I guess Jon should fuck Edmure Tully too? Omg give me Dark!Jon getting revenge on Catelyn by seducing her brother!) Tell me something. I'm new to the fandom but was J*nsa popular before the show? And I've heard something about the OG J*nsa shippers being alienated by the new shippers who insisted it had to be canon and acted like the series is called, "A song of J*nsa #danysux." I don't find that hard to believe because I know people who are now ashamed of calling themselves J*nsa shippers. Like, at this point, it's not only rival shippers who hate it. Even Gendrya/Braime/Jon stans/etc have started disliking that ship. You know your fandom is a problem when people who have nothing to do with Jnsa have a problem with it.

me: reads this ask

me: iwastheregandalf.gif which I can't find now but

okay anon buckle up because I am sadly well-equipped to answer this ask but before I do lemme tell you dark jon seducing edmure to take revenge on cat is LITERALLY THE BEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD but *clears throat* ALL RIGHT THEN.

disclaimer: as anon says I have no issue with like the shippers mentioned by anon in the beginning and ngl I agree, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING STAKES in the j*nsa vs j*nerys war and the only het jon ship I gaf about is jon/ygritte and we all know where that ended up I just... have been here since 2011/adwd was over and all the fic around was just for the books under secret lj communities and asoiaf qualified for yuletide and I have... seen... things.... and I actually have like uh had... beef... with some people in there and I know things bc ppl who hated those others told me stuff so anyway *sigh* buckle up anon I'mma tell you the story of jon shipwars through the years

in order, the old gods help me here, under the cut bc this is long as fuck

when I got into fandom also given what numbers were on ao3 one ship was popular and it was sansan. no like sansan was lit. the only asoiaf ship on ao3 with more than 200 fics. jb had twenty when i checked first. jc had like around 100-ish because of the show but sansan dwarfed anything. I posted the first jon/ygritte fic on the ao3 tag and the fourth throbb fic and like the others were all reposts from lj kinkmemes. nothing was popular before the show except for sansan when it comes to huge numbers bc grrm doesn't like fic and it was all hush hush until the show made it impossible to control and that ship was the one with a huge enough fanbase it actually had numbers, so like... j*nsa wasn't popular in the way nothing else was popular until it got screentime on the show

now, that stated, j*nsa had a... fair amount of fic for a rareship which was mostly book-based and from og shippers that were there from before the show and liked it for what it was but literally none of them thought it was gonna be canon, like it wasn't huge or anything but it had a small but dedicated fanbase who did their own thing and thought it was fun/liked the idea but that was it

that fandom had their own niche of hcs that they cultivated and shit except that like... at the end of S5/beginning of S6 there was a surge in shipping for... well obvious reasons bc it was obv sansa was getting to the wall and that would have been all nice and good but a) it was the time puritanical shipping was starting to take root and the 'shipping sansa with sandor or tyrion is hella problematic' rhetoric had started to circle coming from sans*ery shippers mostly but I'mma not open that fucking can of worms here, b) while the ending of S5 had more of a theon/sansa spike, the j*nsa stuff started getting big

now here we have to mention my villain origin story ie: j*nsa fandom had this one stan whose name I won't make because honestly it's been years and if she's still around I don't want her to remember I exist who was a bnf, wrote for... the website that created the whole larry/carol thing etc who was really fixed on this thing that j*nsa was actually canon and started writing extremely popular meta about it. now you're gonna ask how do you know, I know because this person once wrote a meta named 'why robb stark is a dick' and I told her that it was really fucking bad meta and she took it so badly she kept on trash talking me on her blog/her podcast (I was apparently the insane robb stark fangirl l m a o good lord) and like that was when some sane ppl who argued with her informed me in pvt that she was basically harping on the CANON thing when they'd have been okay with like... it being crackshipping and that she was basically cultivating a hoarde of followers who were harping on them/the ogs and basically ostracizing them;

I would like to add that this person - before her tumblr got 'accidentally deleted' and remade it therefore deleted most receipts for, er, her so-called meta which included stuff like ned and cat raised sansa as a sexual object and only wanted to sell her like cattle - had at some point started a round robin fic thing where... some of the characters mocked openly said stuff that some of the og fans had said specifically targeting them and people in that side basically went harassing anyone who didn't agree with that specific notion

now never mind that this person basically coined an entire term to describe ppl who liked white guys and excused all their wrongdoings out of my conversation re robb basically lying about everything I said as if I didn't have the receipts and tried to sell shirts with it and it didn't work and like then she got kicked out of her own website because she was telling her commenters disagreeing pretty shitty insults (considering I was called psychotic for disagreeing with her that time I don't doubt it) I think at some point she stepped back from fandom bc idk wtf she's up to these days and I don't want to, but basically at that point the dam was broken and there was a bunch of puritanical shippers harping on anyone who didn't agree with j*nsa is canon endgame stuff

this also includes an incident when those ppl were like... passing themselves as throbb shippers and ended up trying to tell t*hramsay shippers off the theon tag based on moral reasons and I ended up arguing with all of them (and they were all from that crowd) which in turn landed me in contact with other og j*nsa shippers who were like detached from that fandom bc those same people harassed them away as well ssooooo fun

anyway when S6 happened everyone was high on it and whatnot but I wasn't gonna begrudge them that I mean... you shipped it for years, canon is delivering you, good for you, but then j*nerys happened

god j*nerys happened

aaand basically...... I mean personally I was there like are y'all seriously arguing about the best incest jon ship out there but like basically the j*nsa endgame side was like AH JON IS PLAYING DANY SEE IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, the j*nerys obv got defensive af and both sides were sort of alternatively shitting on jon/ygritte anyway and depicting any other romantic rship jon could have as abusive™ and during S8 it just got worse and like I tried to stay out of it but basically from what I'm seeing now idk how the j*neryses are doing but on the j*nsa one it's ah jon's gonna play dany anyway and she's going to go insane like in the show so SHOW TRUTHING EVERY OTHER WAY and like again denying that sandor exists or that tyrion exists and like I barely touch my corner (sansan) but I ended up arguing with j*nsa/th*nsa people on twitter who were antis and is2g it was white-hair inducing and I know for sure the sansa/tyrion shippers were harassed to hell and back throughout so FUN

and even if the show didn't go there now since everyone there banked on the jnsa endgame thing and admitting you're wrong is like... not a thing, they still haven't let go of it and attach to that ship any shred of evidence which honestly is grasping at straws half of the time (like... the sansa/alysanne parallels like guys please no) and which is why every other ship is starting to get fed up, attaching canon proof of stuff from other ships onto theirs see that batb argument and jb is platonic but jonsa is not nvm taking all the sansan stuff and throwing it on j*nsa but then denying that sansan has canon evidence (like guys I had to read sansa touching his shoulder when saying gregor wasn't a true knight wasn't meaningful and we were seeing things please) and blah blah blah

this also goes hand in hand with the fixation on like... villanizing dany at all costs and like is2g I have zero investment in dany or her storyline I don't even remember it and I don't particularly care abt her either way and sure af I'm not for j*nerys endgame but like.... some stuff I read is completely excessive esp when fixing on how she's a completely mad tyrant who's gonna have to be put down and like... guys no

(also there's some srs stannis hate in that corner which I honestly don't get why they even care abt stannis but I had to read stuff like ppl don't recognize that dany and stannis are the real villains in this saga and like........ idek)

I think most of the og shippers are gone or don't ship it openly bc they don't want to be attached to the drama but like I also think they're pissing off everyone else bc like... I mean a bunch of them also were down with sansa being paired with other ppl as long as it meant a good ending for her except those ppl were... like everyone but the ppl she has actual contact with in canon which meant that at some point sansa/gendry was a thing and like.... you can imagine why arya/gendry shippers & arya stans were fed up, and there's also this tendency to behave like sansa is the center of the entire saga which like these books is named a song of jon snow basically can we pls make peace with it and personally I've had it with both j*nsa and j*nerys people since they started with that dumbass JON/YGRITTE WAS AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP rhetoric but I'm also fed up with the total ignoring that sandor exists/depicting us as delusional and honestly I also was by proxy fed up from the harassing of the sansa/tyrion shippers soooooooooooo

there were also instances of 'well theon is an acceptable choice other than jon bc he can't threaten her' which... i mean we all know what that meant and I'm not even commenting it bc it's one AM and I have no force to but I don't have to explain why it's not a progressive take now do I

there were also metas about how cousin incest being legal in half of the world means that jondany is a worse incest and j*nsa doesn't count as such and I was basically there like guys please just fucking own up to it but honestly I chose to forgot where I read that and I couldn't find the link if I tried

tldr: no one wants to admit that it's not gonna be endgame which considering the amount of fic they have on ao3 is imvho useless bc they have more content than like.. anything I ship that's not jb or that's actually like canon *cries in joncon/rhaegar but I mean renly/loras is canon and has less fic than them* so idk what's the problem with enjoying that instead of insisting it's gonna be canon when not even the show validated it while show truthing anyway when the only show truthing that can be truthed is the small council made of minorities and possibly jon eventually fucking off with the wildlings but not like that but like most people who thought it wasn't gonna be endgame had left/were made to leave by the time S7 rolled by and at this point since wow isn't out yet everyone is fandom-grasping at straws to find stuff to discourse on and we're here beating dead horses *shrug*

so that's... how it is but I would again like to point out that I don't judge ppl on their shipping, I don't particularly care about this entire feud bc I only ship jon with ppl he's not related to in whichever way and I try to stay out of this mess bc I don't really care to argue with ppl who have already decided to bend canon to whatever they want and will have to realize that it's not what grrm wrote at some point but like I have a very good memory and the above rant is as objective as possible also bc again I don't literally have a stake in that race I just think romantic/endgame j*nsa is not a thing and that ppl should stay in their lane and not harping on other ppl who ship whatever in general but especially when their ship is the most popular thing in fandom in the first place /two cents

[raviposting]

most hated fandom?

HA. HAAAAAA. HAAAAAAAAAAAA. Okay, this is going to be me salting quite a lot because there are about three that are tied because I hate them…so…damn..much - but, ofc, everything will be slashed so no one can come at me bc I’m staying in my damn lane. Cool? Cool. 

And of course, this is not meant to shade every single person in these fandoms. Saying this includes every single person in fandom is a ridiculous assumption to make. I follow people from each, and they’re lovely wonderful people. When I say fandom, I’m talking about the community, not every individual in that community. I’m going by my personal experience, with the fandom that I have seen.

Edit: WOW this got too long for only 3 fandoms so it’s under a read more sorry if you’re on mobile bud (and, uh, if you love any of these fandoms). 

The Cl/exa fandom. It remains the first fandom that I’ve actively hated without being a part of fandom or ever watching the show. I followed a lot of The 1.00 people, and fandom seemed really sweet at the time, but sometime around season 2 I noticed a lot of my Cl/exa followers being horribly racist, biphobic, or just overall shitty (about three kept saying B/ellamy had white male privilege and I really had to double check because I was sure he was a POC and ofc, the actor is, so that was fun). There were also people hating on Desi fans who pointed out how L/exa’s brownface + bindi (and yes, yes, the “helm of awe” thing I get it but that paired with her brownface doesn’t exactly pair well) or considered it “just her having dirt on her face!!!” or “she’s just tan!” really bothered me (esp when one of those same people reblogged an AU where she’s the child of D/rogo & D/any where - Drogo is a POC man so which is it?? Is she a white woman in brown face or not because bud you can’t have both.) The full on moment I hated fandom, though, was when L/exa died. I was sympathetic up until every single wlw ship I followed was filled with L/exa dying. I really don’t need that, especially with the constant “LESBIAN KILLED BY A BULLET” trope being applied to D/elphine who 1. Showed up later on in the season perfectly fine and 2. Is B I S E X U A L. There was constant bi-erasure (one post in particular called K/orrasami lesbians and when it was pointed out that they were both bi the response was that they knew but meant lesbian as in wlw like???? What?????). And that, that was the exact moment when I finally went through my dash and unfollowed a shit load of awful Cl/exa fans and now I only have about 3-5 that I follow because they’re nice, point out problematic aspects, and/or are just generally non-shitty people. 

The DC.TV fandom, specifically the Error & Supe/rgirl fandom. The Sup/ergirl fandom was fine the first season, but it’s especially broken down the second season. Constant erasure of James from the white femslash fandom like!!! How fun!!! And, of course, there’s the Error fandom - they were extra fun. I ship Ol*icity and somehow the fandom managed to lessen my love for them with their misogynistic hatred of La/urel!! Not to mention their real life hatred of KC and shipping Stem*ly together and trying to say that they’re having an affair in real life because that’s not gross at all!!!! And honestly, while I shit on the Ol*city fandom a lot, the entire fandom is gross - I’ve seen the L/aurel fandom slut shame Fel*city and I understand not liking her character, but I don’t like the slut shaming, and I especially hate when people want her to die graphically, because she is a Jewish character and people really need to think about the implications that they give off when they write posts about wanting her to die or make posts with Feli/city dolls where the head is chopped off or she’s bloody af like please criticize the character but don’t be shitty and forget that she’s a Jewish character too, and please don’t be misogynistic.

And I didn’t really get on about them but honestly??? Fl/ash fandom can be shitty too, esp with the ones who have their White Faves, and the Sn*wbarry vs West*llen nonsense. Sn*wbarry fandom can be transparently racist at times, and it’s ridiculous, esp when they’re called out on excluding I.ris or Ci.sco from posts. Ship what you want - I’m not gonna rag on anyone for shipping Sn*wbarry - but please don’t try to pretend like this ship wasn’t founded in racism, like the second CP was cast for I.ris fandom didn’t go “oh….you know what…..Dan/ielle’s character looks…more suitable for B.arry….”. That doesn’t mean that YOU’RE racist, but that’s where the ship came from, and I dislike the fact that people act like that didn’t happen. And - I am part of the We/stallen fandom (kind of) and I like it, but I do have to admit the fandom can be too aggressive at times, and goes overboard on people who multiship or don’t ship We/stallen. I understand there are racist issues with most of the people fandom has had to deal with on the tag, but I’ll see people attacking people who want to get along or congratulated us, or simply immediately accusing them of being racist and like, fam, wyd? Don’t do that, be better than that. 

WHILE WE’RE HERE I feel like most of the annoying parts of the LOT fandom comes from F/larrow but they’re still a part of L.OT and the biphobia that comes from there (esp from the C.aptain C.anary fandom - which, I still ship the ship, but come on fandom be less annoying). 

The majority of the S/ansa fandom. I love S/ansa. She’s my favorite female character ever. However, a large part of her active fandom irritates me. What are Sa/nsa (who is 11-16 depending on the timelines) biggest ships? Her with P/etyr (middle aged man), with T/yrion (middle aged man, who she was forced into a marriage with), with J/on (her adopted brother and biological cousin), and with Sa/ndor (a middle aged man who she’s terrified of). People try to pass it off like they were shipping these with no problem because of Sophie being legal, but these ships were very large when Sophie was starting out as S/ansa - aka when she was 13. And, the ship was incredibly popular in the book fandom, meaning that fans read about an 11 year old girl interacting with middle aged men and thought, “yes, let’s ship her with them”. People try to excuse them and say it’s because “it’s how it works in GOT” but honestly I think that’s an excuse to just ship their pedophile ships - and when they ship J*onsa, it completely ignores Jo.n’s place as a S/tark and acts as if him being adopted does not make him S/ansa’s true brother, which real-life adopted fans have seen from the J*onsa fandom and have found hurtful. It’s so shitty and normalizes abusive ships or relationships with a power-imbalance, and it’s horrible that people see this character, call themselves fans, and yet still ship her in the most unhealthy relationships.

[janiedean]

hey ignore this if you're done with the cersei discourse but do you think it's sexist that grrm gave jaime the redemption arc and cersei the downfall arc? and do you consider the addition of melara to be a shitty thing because it implies that she was evil along instead of being who she is because of the way the patriarchy affected her and stuff

in order:

do you think it's sexist that grrm gave jaime the redemption arc and cersei the downfall arc? no because grrm has nine different female pov characters all of which are wildly different and c. is the only one with the downfall arc, also there’s shit male chars, shit female chars, nice male chars, nice female chars, if she was the only female char he had then yikes but she’s not so ppl can miss me with that argument if you have a variety of well written female chars then you’re not misogynistic if one is a villain

and do you consider the addition of melara to be a shitty thing because it implies that she was evil along instead of being who she I would like to state that a) if c. has narcissism then the fact that she was like that from the beginning would be coherent with that diagnosis, b) c. is a privileged af rich noblewoman who was in a best position to use/fight the patriarchy and she didn’t so I’m extremely skeptical about ‘the patriarchy ruined her’, c) some people are actually that shitty and the thing is that the patriarchy doesn’t turn you into someone who sees everyone as ‘what they can do for me’ and not ‘they’re people with feelings’ c. has a lot of patriarchy issues which made her worse, but like bro the patriarchy wasn’t who made her sexually molest tyrion (canon), we can argue that some of that is parental abuse but like melara is there to show you exactly that c. is a villain that grrm is not interested in redeeming, the end, and in that context there’s nothing misogynistic abt it because guess what grrm has written a bunch of other female chars that are not like that and that he actually likes writing

addendum 1: all women in asoiaf are victims of the patriarchy, arianne is a victim of the patriarchy in almost a specular way, arianne is not c., do the math

addendum 2: catelyn is also a vitim of the patriarchy in a way extremely similar to c’s except she didn’t marry a king, do you see cat gleefully sending other women to be tortured? nah. some women also have internalized misogyny which c. is way more about thanks

addendum 3: grrm has at least another two chars like c. (royd’s mother in nightflyers and that celise in tuf voyaging) in his body of work I mean they’re... least well developed but they’re about like that. I’ve... met people like c. (including the one who slapped me in the face) which lived in this day and age in the western world so sorry but we’re not in a medieval patriarchal society and I can 100% assure you those ppl weren’t like that bc patriarchy. grrm is most likely at his ripe age still coping abt someone like c. who most likely gave him some trauma back in the seventies. having known some like them, I wholly do not blame him if he doesn’t want to give them the redemption arc. and even if he didn’t, he’s not obligated to give anyone redemption arcs especially when c. is not the only female char he writes.

also, if reading re melara someone thinks ‘ah she exists to make c. look bad’ and not ‘no one deserves to die for a crush’ i think I don’t want particularly engage with them. /shrug

also, add-on: asking ‘is grrm sexist’ in general when he writes all female chars with a different personality, managed to write a mother figure that’s not like the usual drivel, managed to do two gnc women pov that aren’t the same character which today is like... extra rare still, got the ‘growing up as a notstandardattractive girl’ experience way better than any other female writer I know and so on when this entire fandom hates catelyn bc of one shitty thing she did which she had her reasons for and like for all she wished jon would die in her grief for bran sure af didn’t send him to get killed like c. did with all of robert’s bastards and that’s imvho way more sexist than whatever grrm can have written ever is honestly really rich and I’m saying it in general not to you anon but like ‘grrm is sexist’ is a take that I can’t take seriously anymore and it’s been like... almost ten years I’m tired XD