#mouthwashing discussion

[certified-moth]

its kinda interesting seeing a lot of the female mouthwashing self insert ocs where they make themselves besties with anya who stood up for her and hate jimmy and curly

dont get me wrong I understand fully that they are not that serious, but I think there's just such a frustrating disconnect between these ocs and canon.

the truth is that if the LARGE majority of women were put on the tulpar in that situation they would not speak up of even acknowledge the situation. women dont get the privilege in workplaces like pony express to rock the boat. assuming the sexism and gender issues are the same in mouthwashing as they are irl (assuming based off plot), i have no doubt that it would be just that much harder for a woman to succeed in these workplaces, they would be struggling to be respected in their own job and temporary home, would most really push issues like this?

its too bad because I think the idea of adding another female character makes a lot of interesting routes to explore. would she avoid anya as a whole out of guilt? or an attempt to keep HERSELF safe from jimmy?

would she really just be a stand in for any fandom member who hates jimmy and loves anya & daisuke?

its easy to say "I like this character, therefore I'm putting myself into this scenario where I am besties with them!" but theres so much MORE... mouthwashing is genuinely one of the most interesting games to think about that ive seen in a long time, I wish fans were more willing to engage with the narratives it lays out, and more often use self indulgent fanworks to PUSH what the story is trying to say instead of subverting it in a way that removes all meaning

[gortashs-skidmark]

The Tulpar was going out of commission. If they had all made it to their destination, how many of us think that Anya would’ve filed a report against Jimmy and how many of us thing that Jimmy would get away with a shit company like pony express?

Would pony express blame it on Anya and not having locks is her problem? What kinda loopholes would they do?

Would Jimmy actually be arrested? The number of people who get like 5 years parole or jail for this stuff is scary. They’re set free at some point.

I wanna know ya’ll’s thoughts. Can be thoughts of before or after burnt curly.

[tavolacci]

The way that people behave when it comes to drawing Jimmy is kind of telling.

I understand not wanting to depict him at all, ESPECIALLY if he's kind of reminiscent of your own trauma, but I've seen plenty of comments of "ugh why is he attractive??" when he's drawn in certain ways. People with absolutely gorgeous art styles drawing him get these comments the most tbh.

I believe this is a bias of some sort, due to us wanting to view those we know as malicious/bad as ugly. We want to see evil as "unattractive". We don't want to look at someone who we find appealing and know that they are truly and fully a terrible person. But that doesn't mean that we should have to depict characters that are that terrible as not conventionally attractive, or that people should be apologized to everytime someone draws them.

It's interesting how it happens, is really what I'm trying to say. We want evil to be "ugly", so that it's easier to stomach and see "why it'd be that way". But that's not how real life is. There are many conventionally attractive people who are irredeemably terrible, but it's easier for the masses to excuse them of their behavior because they're pleasant to look at. I wonder why that is.

Anyway Jimmy Mouthwashing should be drawn however you see fit, I was just thinking. That's it that's the post bye

[dogswest]

MOUTHWASH FANDOM HELP ME OUT I need clarification on the plot / theories cuz I'm mega confused

(spoilers below)

EDITED BELOW

because my autistic ass cant pick up implications for shit, I wanna see what the story is from everyone else's POV or if there's something I missed (like alternative endings) or if I'm just REALLy bad at picking up implications.

from the story I understood: jimny and anya had a thing at one point where they did the deed, then later on curly told everyone that pony express is shutting down, jimmy gets pissed off and crashes the ship on purpose because ig jealousy of curly or hes mad cuz he essentially got laid off? idk why he'd wanna kill everyone else tho, but then curly gets blown up (idk how or why it was only him) and then jimmy is like "im leader" and then everyone dies except curly.

I have so many questions tho, like what was curly saying whrn he was like "what did you do" to jimmy? cuz it seemed like that was before the ship crashed. did jimmy like do something else that I just missed? also, again, why was it only curly? r there any theories? another question, why was Daisuki dying? at first I assumed he got burnt really bad, but because Swansea killed him I assume something worse happened? also (i forget if it was jimmy or swansea) why wasn't jimmy allowrd near the gun safe? did he so something that made him a danger to himself or others? or is it just cause hes crazy.

I gotta rewatch a gameplay or work up the money to get it on my own, cuz I feel so lost, but I also think I'm just a little slower than the average, so getting different POVs would be nice

Edit: .... just found out jimmy and anya was not consensual.

[cherry-pop-elf]

As a AO3 writer imma have to blame this coming fic I’m working on all on @drunkwithmouthwash

Clears throat

Horse Of A Different Color

Jimmy figured this one off job would be something needed to get money, and maybe even as far as to clear his head. Just some cash, food, privacy, just away from it all. What Curly failed to mention was the extra crew member that tagged along last minute. A pal named Polle

I have so many drafts I know, but what’s one more?

Shall Polle be a literal anthropomorphic horse? The person Polle is based on? Or, like in the story, someone who represents his trauma and guilt as a whole?

Perhaps a certain amazing artist like DrinkingWith would desire a collaboration of sorts?

A artist and the writer?

Deep analysis on the mentality of Jimmy

With some silly crack to help reel the readers back in to keep it from pure depression and brain melt

That crack still having deeper layers with obsession to Jimmy none the less

Dealio~?

/nf of course! No matter what I was genuinely inspired by your art work to follow through on this fanfic analysis. I love deep analysis’s and I feel so strongly about an actual Polle/Polle representation being involved since in game it is. But what about at the start? Before it all? That maybe Polle is also Anya’s guardian angel, since she sleeps under the mascot because it’s motion activated so Jimmy can’t sneak up on her

No matter what my ass is making sure to credit inspiration of course

Figure like if you did want to collab on this I leave the option available! : D

Okie byeeeeee

[mouthwashingconfessions]

I feel like a lot of people forget that Jimmy is a relatively normal dude. Like he cares for Curly, has a sense of humor, and does normal things. Yeah, he’s a rapist but people have to understand that not all rapists are like… abnormal.

He’s an interesting character and is so mischaracterized. I’d also like to point out that Jimmy immediately thought of knocking Swansea out with a drink and thinking that he won’t remember what happened when he wakes up, and he believes it so it can help with his guilt.

This implies that he’s done this before and that it could be learned behavior by his father or mother, practice, or it happened to him. It isn’t exactly uncommon for a perpetrator to also be a victim.

Yeah, I do agree with you here Anon. It's very clear he is unstable and people can become mentally ill due to trauma. Even some mental disorders can be a result of trauma related.

It would make sense if Jimmy was a SA/CSA survivor who didn't get the help he deserved. Since SA survivors aren't taken seriously no matter of their gender in real life. I know there is a case where traumatised people might try to recreate their trauma. And people with mental disabilities aren't taken seriously too.

Mouthwashing is a psychological horror, Psychological horror does take elements from real studies. I think people forget that.

Of course, it doesn't justify his actions! And i'm not trying to here! He is still a criminal with unforgivable actions.

It kinda reminds me of how people was giving Stella from Helluva boss realistic headcanons and people were like "Abuser apologist" when in reality they aren't. They aren't justifying her behaviour and they are giving a realistic view of real life through the eyes of a fictional characters due that fiction can be important! and Stella being based on Beatrice Horseman (To my knowledge and Beatrice comes from a series that talks about heavy topics) so that is another reason why they would add these headcanons to her.

Of course not all survivors of any kind of abuse will become the abuser. There is sadly cases where survivors continue the cycle of abuse. That's why it is important to break that cycle of abuse in real life.

This is same with people with mental disorders, not everyone with a mental disorder is going to be like Jimmy but there are people who are going to be like Jimmy. But that's not because of their disorder, it's because they aren't a good person. (I seen people reading Jimmy having a mental disorder or multiple disorders. That's why I added this here)

A disorder or a trauma doesn't make someone a bad person end of the day, it's how the person is like. People are different, that's how humans work.

Having characters representing the survivors who broke the cycle and Characters who hasn't are important. It can open people's eyes to things that aren't talked about enough.

This can be executed right with a character who continues the cycle of abuse or commits to the dangerous mindset they were groomed into as a child by an adult or someone is older than them or even the same age due to peer pressure.

At the end of the day,

You can like a character with unforgivable actions without supporting their actions. And you can give them realistic headcanons of them without justifying their actions. And people can dislike the same character as long they aren't harassing people over that character.

[barkzim]

obv no shade to anyone— but i think some people forget/dont realize Swansea likely already knew, and Ive seen discussions that suspect Anya made Swansea promise to not do anything drastic, I mean, yeah, Swansea always kinda acts sassy, but I feel like how he treated Jimmy was just,, *different*, idk. Also, I feel if he didnt know anything, he wouldnt have 1-kept the axe. he kept it and held it away from not only Jimmy, but also Anya. 2- tried to chase down+kill Jimmy after putting down Daisuke. He killed Daisuke because he was in a horrid state, unlikely to make it without Anya there, so he spared him. Jimmy, on the other hand, didnt have any injuries. Nothing, but with having to lose someone similar to a son, losing Anya and his captain (even though Curly wasnt dead, you cant say they didnt “lose” him imo) and now it’s just him and *Jimmy*. The cause of all of this, Swansea isnt dumb, he knows Jimmy *isnt his captain*. Anyway,

AU: Swansea accidentally overheard Anya talking to Curly

[queam]

How (SOME) people in the mouthwashing fandom sound

[damaged-collateral]

[linkcharacter]

Really like the recent analysis. I know I speak of curly in a more defensive way than most but I generally try to get the point you made across at the end of the day with my analyses on him and his behaviors.

People love to lock analyses around Curly solely based on what he could’ve done as a physical action and have this avoidance to acknowledging the realistic barriers at play when it comes to those solutions. It’s. The game tries to treat the pre-crash section as if they are grounded in social and organizational realities. So the what if he did this questions about the situation always fall short when the real answer is he either couldn’t or it wasn’t an actual viable option. But then when they talk about what he actually did do it’s surrounded by such bad faith interpretations that his actions were completely intentional or still not affected by outside sources. He’s a very much “road to hell is paved with good intentions” character. He cared too much and that’s a big part of his problem.

There’s such a “perfect victim or nothing” mindset in the fandom where people can’t admit that there are no such things as perfect victims but that also shouldn’t mean that even if there were it would absolve them of the mistakes they made. People want to moralize every action of every character that they don’t realize that some actions are done without any specific morale factor. People just do things, like you said. People assumed failed intentions immediately flip the thought process behind them “he meant to do good but bad happened, he must be bad” and that just is not how people work. It’s how perceptions work but only of the observer.

It’s such a sensitive topic because, yes, you are supposed to be frustrated, even mad, at what Curly didn’t do, but you have to acknowledge the fact these were good intentioned acts even if that good intent did jack squat in the end. That his responses are human and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable and hurt that they were realistic faults of his.

He enabled his friend and it ended bad for everyone including him. No one really tries to argue this fact but everyone seems to think it has to be tied to the morale dilemma and not certain human natures and social factors.

This is all to ask, why do you personally lean towards thinking Curly wouldn’t turn Jimmy in? Are you speaking in the short term of realizing how bad he got or long-term/overall? I feel like he could but it would not be easy and no matter the necessity he’d always have this guilt at feeling bad for doing it.

Ah yes Curly the most imperfect human man character.

Yep yep yep absolutely, people love to assign morality onto characters and call them good or bad and diminishing the depth and nuance of Mouthwashing, filling discussions with bad-faith interpretations or speculating on inconcrete understandings of the incomplete, intentionally vague, context. I adore Mouthwashing to no end for having this oppressive suffocating and constant atmosphere surrounding everything in the game. Really shows off that the environment festers, no one well-meaning guy could create a happy ending with individual actions alone because it's all systematic.

To elaborate from your question tho, at the point Curly was in (if Anya wasn't pregnant scenario), definitely no don't think so (would depend on Anya a too on whether or not she would go to the authorities outside). Curly knew Jimmy was a danger, and I do believe that subconsciously Anya's report to him on Jimmy gnaws at him, but not vividly enough. I want to point out a moment where Anya tells him about the pregnancy, he begins asking "Who would you-", then he's nudged by Anya that she told him and he should know who it is, and he does, instantly saying he's known him a long time and will talk to him. That moment of, for a second not connecting that Jimmy is the assaulter responsible just makes me drag my palm across my face for how much of a man (derogatory) Curly acted like for one dialogue line. Like he just 'forgot' for a brief moment that Jimmy harassed Anya prior? Granted, he instantly believes and takes Anya seriously, immediately dropping the search for the gun he was on in that scene, realizing the severity of the situation and of Jimmy. We also don't know what Anya has told him specifically, how long ago it happened, etc. but the 'implications' of the scene make me believe Jimmy's known sexual harassment on the ship slipped Curly's mind due to him being more invested in "the bigger picture" of Jimmy, not latching onto a harmful and a very serious fucking trivia fact about Jimmy because of his perception of who his friend is as a whole (and with his foggy sleep-deprived mind at the moment), 'losing a needle in a haystack' with how much unknown history Curly and Jimmy shared, so to say.

Maaaybe in some other circumstances, like if Jimmy didn't crash the ship or smth long term I could see him doing it, it would take a lot effort like you said, no matter the necessity. We will never know. If we're going into speculation and imaginary scenarios though, if Anya HERSELF were to try and get justice, Curly would be backing her up undoubtedly (still not disconnecting himself from Jimmy though and feeling guilt on his behalf). But that's all suppositions from my reading of the characters.

[cherry-pop-elf]

A valid point. To those who can handle such a risk and sight, do it for the people who can not. Fight for those who can not and keep making content

Be brave for people who can’t

Because ya know what?

I’ll be brave

I grew up with unrestricted internet and already saw the gruesome hell they sent out

I’ll be brave for the people who need to protect themselves and keep making content and creating safe spaces to enjoy what WE LIKE

On Christmas Day imma have mouthwashing content qued up and ready to ship

Imma fight back!

New Challenge: Spam mouthwashing content on Christmas Day as retaliation. To flood and drown out their own attack

Fandoms deserve to exist and make content! To be free to write and draw! To discuss and thrive!

Those losers are just edgy kids who have nothing better to do

Let’s keep on being happy and making what makes us happy

Those who can make content keep making content, so those who need to protect themselves know they’ll return to a fandom flooded with content to drown out the hate

Who’s with us?!

hi chat

so I don’t think the raid(s) is gonna happen

why?

(btw you can do what you want, this is my opinion)

they said that they will raid on christmas BUT do we know that’s comfirmed? like don’t ya think they said that to scare us? To feel some sort of power? I think we should relax a bit before we know (and sadly see) that the raid is here/it’s happening.

[skufdaddyswansea]

Jimmy and Swansea at Their Worst

The crash of the Tulpar sees Jimmy thrust into a leadership role for which he was hopelessly unprepared, and in the months that follow, his chain of poor decisions leads to dire consequences for all those aboard, himself included. But he wasn't alone in that marathon to rock bottom. If we follow his footsteps downward, we'll find Swansea's right there next to his.

At the surface level, the two already have a lot in common. They're both brash to the point of rudeness, openly dissatisfied with their lives, and have short fuses.

Notably, Swansea can also be overly critical of Anya.

...But, to be fair to him, he's like that with everyone.

When they really start to converge is after the crash. Looking at Swansea's relationship with Daisuke, it's almost a microcosm of Jimmy's relationship with the crew. While he initially makes an effort to do the right thing, he inevitably gives in to his worst impulses and fails. In Swansea's case, he falls off the wagon. This may look like only a personal weakness, especially compared to Jimmy's more outwardly destructive behaviour. But in his position, even the harm he does to himself reflects outward.

Daisuke is the only other member of the Tulpar that we see "indulging" in the mouthwash. Swansea has no idea that he's sprawled on the floor, sick on dental hygiene products, devoid of his characteristic cheer. If he did know, what could he even say? After all, Daisuke was only following his example.

Later on, Swansea's alcoholism prevents him from protecting Daisuke in a much more literal sense.

All his secrecy and isolation were for nothing.

One of the major reasons he withdrew from Daisuke was because Daisuke was much too naive to hide the cryopods from the others; he probably never would have accepted that everyone else would have to die for him to survive. Swansea took extreme measures to guard the Utility room from Jimmy, all to protect Daisuke. But in doing so, he gave Jimmy the perfect opportunity to take advantage of those very traits he wanted to protect.

In this moment, both Swansea and Jimmy fail Daisuke. They both let their weakness blind themselves to danger. And they both realize their mistakes far too late to save anyone.

But it's through this ugly truth that Swansea is able to break off from their path. With the last of his hope gone, he can do what Jimmy can't: he accepts it. And he does what he knows is right, even if it breaks him to do so.

I think Swansea also sees some part of himself in Jimmy. Maybe even what he could have been if he didn't fight so hard against his demons. That's why in his final act, he tries one last time to get through to him. It was too late to make things right with his kids, or for Daisuke. Or even himself.

Of course, he knew it was futile. Jimmy was never going to listen. Because what really set them apart in the end was irreconcilable; the gulf between them was shaped by their ideals.

Swansea wanted to be a better man. Jimmy wanted to be a hero.

[dykedvonte]

You ever just see a Mouthwashing take that makes you want to bang your head into a wall? I literally just saw someone claim Curly couldn't have been emotionally abused by Jimmy before the crash because he was in a higher position of power than Jimmy.

-Shrimp Anon

The mouthwashing fandom has shown me that people genuinely do believe that certain types of abuse are not as detrimental as other types especially when they deem those immune/resistant, ergo, believing one is objectively worse no matter how it affects the person nor the intersections of power, history and dynamics at play.

Get ready cause this is a yap session:

Cause like it's heavily implied that Curly and Jimmy's friendship was toxic and abusive, pointedly in the direction of how Jimmy uses Curly's belief/comfort in him. Curly wasn't forced to enable Jimmy but he was emotional and mentally on edge around him in almost every scene in some way. Mental and emotional abuse are not contingent on what positions you have at work. Yeah, he's Jimmy's boss but he was Jimmy's friend first and it's like getting into Psych discussion to talk about how social power tends to overshadow any perceived organizational power in the human mind. People are concerned about their jobs ofc but they tend to hang onto and put more value/investment into their personal relationships, hence why there tends to be laws and restrictions around mixing the two.

I always see the sentiments that "Curly is a grown ass man", "Curly is bigger than Jimmy", "Curly is Jimmy's boss", "He just needed a backbone" as criticisms of Curly and while I do agree that on the surface level all of these to be true and viable ways Curly could've taken more control of the situation, I often look at the parallels of Anya and Curly as victims of Jimmy pre/post crash.

The way Jimmy talks to Anya post crash is how he talked to Curly in the pre-crash segments. It's hard to pin-point mainly because we know he hates and wants nothing to do with Anya compared to his contrary but similarly handled obsessions with Curly. It's a weird sort of "honey-moon" effect of abuse Jimmy does in terms of emotional and mental victimization. He is always horrid to Anya, always talking down or questioning her abilities and thoughts in a situation, this of course includes the harassment and assault. However, he has a moment of attempted gentleness/conditioning when he question her about the mouthwash when she's contemplating drinking it at the table. The key difference is he has no personal investment in Jimmy outside wanting nothing to do with him, meaning there is no sort of romanticized version of him that he can condition her off of. He knows this, hence, why he always reverts to trying to make her to scared to oppose him.

This sort of give and take of "kindness" doesn't work on her because she knows he is just doing it to take more from her than whatever he could possibly give but it reflects even the "softer" scenes between him and Curly where he always rewords or rephrases Curly's sentiments and concerns to sound more shallow. He is feigning a deeper understanding by reworking Curly's emotions into something bad and needing to be hidden. Everything is laced with envy and resentment, an outburst just around the corner, I mean he even slams the table in the birthday party scene, a tactic in emotional manipulation to set the victim on edge and cloud their ability to respond. Even if Curly knows Jimmy won't get physical in that moment, the physical actions is intended to make him back down in the confrontation in case it does. This is something that is just not person specific. It ingrains itself into how you interact with the world and life and it shows in major and minor ways with Curly.

Post-crash, the abusive nature is more in tandem to the physical victimization Anya went through and the stripping of voice and autonomy we see take place. Like the parasite in HFIM, Jimmy speaks for Curly most of the time and puts words in his mouth, similarly to how he takes Anya's plans as his own. He very commonly, with the both of them mind you, supplements the worst aspects of himself into them; pettiness, selfishness, lack of understanding... And tries to cover himself with their best qualities; kindness, planning, initiative, etc...

These parallel are just to say that positional power has little to do with if a person can be abused and how it can even be flipped to further the abuse. There is no doubt that Curly could've picked up on Jimmy's envy of his position hence another reason he never confronted him as a Captain but as a friend as doing so would immediately put Jimmy in a space to be confrontational/combative.

I think the disdain some people have when they talk about the heavily implied if not implicitly stated emotional/mental abuse Curly experienced being Jimmy's friend is when treating it as an excuse to why he didn't do more. I can understand that completely because it is not an excuse to why he didn't do more but is a very real reason people in his position in these scenarios can experience whether in the context of a work or social environment. However, I also think the way people talk about it really does demonstrate a bigger problem when talking about abuse when somehow who is/was abused is either part of the issue or enabled it.

Harkening back to the sentiments about Curly's inaction regarding Jimmy, I think the exact phrases I used/have seen show how there is an inherent belief that it is easier to overpower the effects of emotional/mental abuse that go in tandem with the perception of Curly as someone who should be able to. There is not an age you suddenly stop being susceptible to abuse nor a set point or low where you realize how it has affected you. You don't suddenly know to stand up or put a face on to face your abuser nor admit that you inadvertently enabled them to subjugate someone else to the same treatment. Maybe it's my psych brain but their is this growing belief that direct action is somehow easy or always the best method with the game shows you instances where it is not always the case. In real life that rings true too. He should have done more, but it's not impossible to see why he struggled to find a way or didn't even if it makes us mad.

It's not easy to suddenly gain a "back-bone". You don't immediately want to resort to aggression, especially if it mirrors the type you were a victim to. You don't want to believe you allowed yourself to be treated this bad, let it get that bad or allowed something bad to happen to someone else. It is easy to be in denial, to retreat to your thoughts or make excuses to avoid the painful truth. It's frustrating but in a way we know is relatable. It why we both hate and love Curly for it. We know we'd be better, we think we'd be better, we like to think we wouldn't falter in the same ways but it's always easier to say that from the outside looking in. It's easy to see what he was doing wrong because we are seeing it, not him, but the game really does make you picture what you would do if this was your raw reality and it's why this debate about Curly seems so never ending/contradictory. We can all say what we'd do but bottom line is that's much different when you're in the moment with all the emotions and human feelings attached.

I personally think Mouthwashing tackles the themes of rape culture, enabling, toxic masculinity, types of abuse and patriarchy in ways that are meant to deconstruct the typical straightforward views we mostly have of these concepts and how little subtilities of them are just as, if not more, detrimental than the overt/obvious parts. The game deals with the idea of little details and bigger picture in a way to show that sometimes the bigger picture is not the issue but the little details that make it up. It's why I have a personal dislike of depictions of Jimmy as the typical horrible person who would of course do something like this because the game is about noticing the little warning signs, the foreshadowing and foresight.

It's why I dislike the typical discussion of "bro code" and "boys will be boys" for the game because the game makes a point to avoid the standard depictions of such. It is about the type of men who still enable despite not condoning, agreeing or even perpetuating harmful beliefs because they can't see the little details or the ways it seeps into their everyday. The severity is not obvious to them as it was not obvious to Curly, Swansea or even Daisuke the way it was to a woman like Anya. There are little details about Jimmy that should ring alarms but if you are too naive like Daisuke, too distant like Swansea or too conditioned like Curly, they are just off markers.

There is 100% more constructive/concise ways to say "Curly was a victim of Jimmy's abuse on an emotional and mental aspect that clouded his judgements and perceptions in the scenario" while also critiquing on the side of "Curly still had a responsibility to protect Anya as a crew mate and Captain that he failed to do due to biases and stigma's he failed to surpass" without the weird condemnation people give him about should've knowing better than to let himself be manipulated by a person he considered a close, if not family/best-friend and had his own reasons to trust initially. Also stop being weird about victims of abuse in general with this fandom, like sorry not everyone has a like social epiphany the moment someone's nasty to them. People are treating it like you immediately know when you are in a toxic relationship immediately or comprehend when a person is actively dangerous and either it's your fault for not knowing how to leave/cut them off or you deserve it. Like the hypocrisy of people believing how certain fans treat the story reflect their irl views but not their own is crazy.

End statement is: I honestly don't even know man, I've been writing this too long and just like no man on that ship was perfect or really helped Anya when it mattered and I feel like pitting them against each other in discussion on who did the least or most or how it was justified sucks cause in the end Anya always did the most and best thing for herself.

[the-gay-trashmouth]

I think something that's bothers me about how folks talk about mouthwashing is how they talk about Swansea. It's either "Swansea would have killed Jimmy immediately if Anya had told him" or "he knew and he did nothing just like curly." because, to me at least it leaves out a lot of nuance to his character and situation. Curly and Swansea are really good foils to each other, one who's got a reputation for being the kind and helpful captain but in the end does nothing to truly protect the crew from Jimmy, and one who's gruff, harsh, and cruel but genuinely tries to help in the background, the reliable mechanic.

(read more for a long Mouthwashing character ramble tw for unwanted pregnancy and SA)

Because Curly is the one with the power. He doesn't take what Jimmy did seriously enough. And you can say that he might not have known fully what Jimmy did, but I think the "I told you" pregnancy conversation and his reaction to Jimmy right before the crash ("come on we'll get through this together. We'll figure it out, you've had hard times before-") are indicators that he knew, but he still chose to stick by his friend and treat it like a "mistake" rather than what it really was.

Now that's my own personal speculation of course, there's no outright scene of her telling him "your best friend assaulted me", but I think there's enough evidence in game through Anya and Curlys interactions to say that he knew, and he knew before Anaya knew she was pregnant. He had a fully functioning ship and four fully functional cryo-pods. He could have at least given Anya more security, kept her far away from him, and at most forced him into the cryopod until they got back to earth. Jimmy STILL had full, uncontrolled access to the cockpit AFTER his freakout with curly. AFTER Anya tells curly she doesn't feel safe with him. AFTER Curly finds out he raped Anya. He's so focused on seeing the good in his friend that he does NOTHING to protect Anya, doesn't strip away not one of Jimmy powers as copilot and consequently endangers her and the rest of the crew.

Curly was the captain, he had the power to relegate Jimmy to the fucking storage closet if he really wanted, at least put him in the cryopod until they got back to earth. In fact, he was the only person above Jimmy in terms of rank on the ship, but he chose to do nothing. He chose to let Jimmy continue as acting co-pilot, chose to comfort him rather than actually confront him. Slides off his weird sexual comments as jokes "So what's this about horses?"

Now let's compare that to Swansea, the mechanic.

We don't have any evidence that Swansea knew about what Jimmy did until after the crash ("it's been her telling me things") where they were trapped with no captain, barely any rations, and a single cryopod that he kept hidden away in the one room he had the key too (and the only room that could lead into medbay). He didn't use it for himself, he makes it clear he didn't intend on getting off this hunk of metal in his last few conversations with Jimmy.

Swansea as the ship's mechanic, was used to fixing things in the background. He didn't need to get along with anyone to keep the ship running, he didn't need people to like him to keep them safe. We see that with Daisuke. He's harsh on him, for sure, but he leaves constant notes to help him learn. Genuinely tries to keep him out of harm's way when it comes to more dangerous jobs. We know Anya was scared of Jimmy getting a weapon, she hid the gun case in the medical bay even knowing she would never get it open. We can see Swansea and Anya off on their own towards the first days after the crash, and Swansea still has a tight grip of the axe weeks and months later.

I personally think that was him trying to keep Jimmy from having access to a weapon. The only time Jimmy gets the axe while Swansea is alive is when Anya Specifically asks him to use it to get medical supplies. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Swansea, like any good mechanic, was quietly trying to keep things running out of Jimmy's sight. It's not until everyone is dead or dying that he snaps, that he finally takes direct action. But it was too little too late.

Both Curly and Swansea thought they were doing the right thing, helping in their own way. Curly genuinely wanted to see the good in Jimmy, wanted it to just be some challenge they could overcome, but in doing so he failed to see the monster right in front of him. He had all the power (in context of the crew, the company is a whole other can of worms I have so many other thoughts on), but he was too afraid to use it. Hell, he was DISCOURAGED to use it if the memo about HR complaints are anything to go by. Swansea, on the other hand, never trusted Jimmy, never even really liked him, but he didn't want to make anything worse either. He didn't know what would actually set Jimmy off, or what he was capable of, and aside from just straight up killing him what else could he do that wouldn't just push Jimmy further off the edge? Like with the foam. "One wrong move and you'll rip this ship a new asshole", he worked carefully, hiding the last pod from Jimmy, keeping the only other weapon on himself, guarding the only other entrance into Medbay, but Jimmy was escalating quickly. He underestimated how far Jimmy was willing to go, just like Curly had, and in the end suffered the consequences.

The only character who actually understood how dangerous and unstable Jimmy was is Anya. She knew the moment she found out she was pregnant he would hurt her ("you won't let me protect myself"). He wouldn't be able to take it, he would do something drastic. She knew he was escalating the longer they were stranded. Anya is the only crew member who truly understood how dangerous Jimmy was and took direct action.

And interesting thing to me is that she doesn't just kill herself. She locks herself in the medbay. She could have waited for Jimmy to sleep, or locked herself in the cockpit, but she locked herself in the medbay with Curly. She knows that with her gone there would be no one left to take care of him, she knew Jimmy would continue to escalate his abuse, and with her gone all of his anger and fear and guilt would turn on Curly.

And wouldn't you know it? She was right. Without Anya to stop him, he takes curly out of the bed, forces him upright into the cryopod, and forces a man with no skin, no arms, no legs, and infected tissues to be frozen for 20 years while the rest of his crew Rot. And that's only what we know to be reality- if any of his delusions had some basis in reality he could have done so so much more. Anya is the Only one to take reasonable, direct action to keep herself, and then Curly, safe.

But she didn't have enough power over Jimmy to truly protect herself. She didn't have the code to the gun case, she didn't have a weapon or a rank to fall back on. She was outnumbered by men who she knew from experience either wouldn't or couldn't keep her safe, and she was heavily pregnant with a baby she didn't want and most likely couldn't even get enough nutrients to sustain either her or the fetus. She was physically weakened and trapped in a stranded ship with her abuser with no way home and a medical miracle (curse) in Curly.

This game is a really good reflection of reality, in my opinion as an abuse survivor. Some people will see them as "one of the boys" and constantly excuse or downplay their actions (Curly), some people will do small things in the background, recognize the abuse and disprove, but don't want to get in the way or make things worse (Swansea), and some people are just straight up oblivious/naive (Daisuke). But in the end, it's the system that allows abuse and incentives coverups to keep peace or save face that really allows abuse to fester and escalate.

Which is why I personally have a problem with the idea that Anya should have just Told A Different Man because it ignores the very real chain of power and her own agency in her story, AS WELL AS the idea that Swansea and Diasuke knew but didn't care because that's just not reflective of real life. Not every man is some rapist apologist who doesn't care what abusers do until it happens to them, some people just don't know what to do, or don't have any good options that wouldn't result in further abuse. Hell some people just don't even fucking notice! Not everyone has had exposure to the signs or knows what to look for.

It's easy when looking at fictional depictions of abuse to say "well if I was there I would have just punched him/killed him/called the police" but real life, in that moment, its never going to be clear cut. You can call out abuse, but that might just lead to that abuser taking it out on their abuse victim later. They could even start to target you for daring to speak out, or try to hurt you and cut you off from the person being abused. You can know all the right steps and the right programs, but in the moment, when faced with a real situation where someone could get hurt or even killed? You stumble. You think things over, you don't try and make any direct moves that would set their abusers off. Sometimes that's a good instinct, and sometimes that just lets abuse escalate. It's never a good situation, and it's never actually anyone's fault but the abusers. And this way of thinking also conveniently leaves out the survivor of this abuse, and portrays them as someone who needs to be saved, rather than someone who needs support and resources to save themselves. It also very conveniently lets the company that Put Anya in this situation in the first place get off Scott free.

The solution isn't "oh one of the men on board should have personally killed Jimbo and saved Anya all by himself" its "Anya deserved the support of her crewmates instead of being forced into close proximity with her rapist and also maybe Jimmy shouldn't have access to the fucking controls or medbay or any weapons- AND ALSO the crew shouldn't have financial incentives not to report things to HR"

[bugjams]

Something I find interesting abt the online reaction to mouthwashing is some people's insistence on putting the focus on curly over everyone else.

Obviously he has the most visible damage from Jimmy's tendency to take other people's autonomy but in the end you still lose sight of the other people jimmy has hurt, namely Anya.

[turtle-x-x]

Watching moist critical play mouthwashing tonight and it makes me wonder why women seem to notice jimmy’s shit first and why so many people are opposed to Swansea’s mercy kill of Daisuke. They had no chance of being rescued and there was nothing to save Daisuke. Why would you want him to suffer any longer? And why do so many think Jimmy insulting Anya constantly is okay in the first place? My friend mentioned he thinks it’s due to men failing to keep each other in check and I wonder if he’s right. I genuinely want to hear your takes.