#mouthwashing discussion

[kestrelstep]

Seems like I never hear anyone talk about what actually happened in the vents with Daisuke.

TW: discussion of physical harm and death

We see the sequence with Jamboree where the axe appears suddenly on the vent walls, which could be representing a sudden sharpness like the vent collapse, or could be representing his death afterward, and I know the vents themselves are made bigger than they should be to show that Jam Pie doesn’t want to acknowledge how tight of a crawl it would have been.

The exposed wires could have caused electrocution and burning, and the vent collapsing would have created sharp metal that he could have gotten hurt on too. But I also noticed there are a lot of depictions of fans with spinning blades in the vents, and one in particular that the blades have been damaged and bent, almost like someone fell in.

I think it’s intentional that we never actually know what it was that banged him up so badly. Because the whole point of the sequence is to show that Jimbob refuses to acknowledge what he did to Daisuke, the pain he must have gone through, and what actually happened. Not to mention, we don’t get to see inside the vent because we don’t play as Daisuke. So we, looking through the eyes of Jammer, don’t actually get to know what happened because he refuses to think about it and take responsibility for it.

Daisuke went through so much, he didn’t deserve this!

[certified-moth]

its kinda interesting seeing a lot of the female mouthwashing self insert ocs where they make themselves besties with anya who stood up for her and hate jimmy and curly

dont get me wrong I understand fully that they are not that serious, but I think there's just such a frustrating disconnect between these ocs and canon.

the truth is that if the LARGE majority of women were put on the tulpar in that situation they would not speak up of even acknowledge the situation. women dont get the privilege in workplaces like pony express to rock the boat. assuming the sexism and gender issues are the same in mouthwashing as they are irl (assuming based off plot), i have no doubt that it would be just that much harder for a woman to succeed in these workplaces, they would be struggling to be respected in their own job and temporary home, would most really push issues like this?

its too bad because I think the idea of adding another female character makes a lot of interesting routes to explore. would she avoid anya as a whole out of guilt? or an attempt to keep HERSELF safe from jimmy?

would she really just be a stand in for any fandom member who hates jimmy and loves anya & daisuke?

its easy to say "I like this character, therefore I'm putting myself into this scenario where I am besties with them!" but theres so much MORE... mouthwashing is genuinely one of the most interesting games to think about that ive seen in a long time, I wish fans were more willing to engage with the narratives it lays out, and more often use self indulgent fanworks to PUSH what the story is trying to say instead of subverting it in a way that removes all meaning

[gortashs-skidmark]

The Tulpar was going out of commission. If they had all made it to their destination, how many of us think that Anya would’ve filed a report against Jimmy and how many of us thing that Jimmy would get away with a shit company like pony express?

Would pony express blame it on Anya and not having locks is her problem? What kinda loopholes would they do?

Would Jimmy actually be arrested? The number of people who get like 5 years parole or jail for this stuff is scary. They’re set free at some point.

I wanna know ya’ll’s thoughts. Can be thoughts of before or after burnt curly.

[lemon69lol]

Gently grabs your shoulders

Curly is a victim of Jimmys abuse, and Curly failed to protect Anya from Jimmy are both true and are not mutually exclusive concepts

[tavolacci]

The way that people behave when it comes to drawing Jimmy is kind of telling.

I understand not wanting to depict him at all, ESPECIALLY if he's kind of reminiscent of your own trauma, but I've seen plenty of comments of "ugh why is he attractive??" when he's drawn in certain ways. People with absolutely gorgeous art styles drawing him get these comments the most tbh.

I believe this is a bias of some sort, due to us wanting to view those we know as malicious/bad as ugly. We want to see evil as "unattractive". We don't want to look at someone who we find appealing and know that they are truly and fully a terrible person. But that doesn't mean that we should have to depict characters that are that terrible as not conventionally attractive, or that people should be apologized to everytime someone draws them.

It's interesting how it happens, is really what I'm trying to say. We want evil to be "ugly", so that it's easier to stomach and see "why it'd be that way". But that's not how real life is. There are many conventionally attractive people who are irredeemably terrible, but it's easier for the masses to excuse them of their behavior because they're pleasant to look at. I wonder why that is.

Anyway Jimmy Mouthwashing should be drawn however you see fit, I was just thinking. That's it that's the post bye

[dogswest]

MOUTHWASH FANDOM HELP ME OUT I need clarification on the plot / theories cuz I'm mega confused

(spoilers below)

EDITED BELOW

because my autistic ass cant pick up implications for shit, I wanna see what the story is from everyone else's POV or if there's something I missed (like alternative endings) or if I'm just REALLy bad at picking up implications.

from the story I understood: jimny and anya had a thing at one point where they did the deed, then later on curly told everyone that pony express is shutting down, jimmy gets pissed off and crashes the ship on purpose because ig jealousy of curly or hes mad cuz he essentially got laid off? idk why he'd wanna kill everyone else tho, but then curly gets blown up (idk how or why it was only him) and then jimmy is like "im leader" and then everyone dies except curly.

I have so many questions tho, like what was curly saying whrn he was like "what did you do" to jimmy? cuz it seemed like that was before the ship crashed. did jimmy like do something else that I just missed? also, again, why was it only curly? r there any theories? another question, why was Daisuki dying? at first I assumed he got burnt really bad, but because Swansea killed him I assume something worse happened? also (i forget if it was jimmy or swansea) why wasn't jimmy allowrd near the gun safe? did he so something that made him a danger to himself or others? or is it just cause hes crazy.

I gotta rewatch a gameplay or work up the money to get it on my own, cuz I feel so lost, but I also think I'm just a little slower than the average, so getting different POVs would be nice

Edit: .... just found out jimmy and anya was not consensual.

[cherry-pop-elf]

As a AO3 writer imma have to blame this coming fic I’m working on all on @drunkwithmouthwash

Clears throat

Horse Of A Different Color

Jimmy figured this one off job would be something needed to get money, and maybe even as far as to clear his head. Just some cash, food, privacy, just away from it all. What Curly failed to mention was the extra crew member that tagged along last minute. A pal named Polle

I have so many drafts I know, but what’s one more?

Shall Polle be a literal anthropomorphic horse? The person Polle is based on? Or, like in the story, someone who represents his trauma and guilt as a whole?

Perhaps a certain amazing artist like DrinkingWith would desire a collaboration of sorts?

A artist and the writer?

Deep analysis on the mentality of Jimmy

With some silly crack to help reel the readers back in to keep it from pure depression and brain melt

That crack still having deeper layers with obsession to Jimmy none the less

Dealio~?

/nf of course! No matter what I was genuinely inspired by your art work to follow through on this fanfic analysis. I love deep analysis’s and I feel so strongly about an actual Polle/Polle representation being involved since in game it is. But what about at the start? Before it all? That maybe Polle is also Anya’s guardian angel, since she sleeps under the mascot because it’s motion activated so Jimmy can’t sneak up on her

No matter what my ass is making sure to credit inspiration of course

Figure like if you did want to collab on this I leave the option available! : D

Okie byeeeeee

[mouthwashingconfessions]

I feel like a lot of people forget that Jimmy is a relatively normal dude. Like he cares for Curly, has a sense of humor, and does normal things. Yeah, he’s a rapist but people have to understand that not all rapists are like… abnormal.

He’s an interesting character and is so mischaracterized. I’d also like to point out that Jimmy immediately thought of knocking Swansea out with a drink and thinking that he won’t remember what happened when he wakes up, and he believes it so it can help with his guilt.

This implies that he’s done this before and that it could be learned behavior by his father or mother, practice, or it happened to him. It isn’t exactly uncommon for a perpetrator to also be a victim.

Yeah, I do agree with you here Anon. It's very clear he is unstable and people can become mentally ill due to trauma. Even some mental disorders can be a result of trauma related.

It would make sense if Jimmy was a SA/CSA survivor who didn't get the help he deserved. Since SA survivors aren't taken seriously no matter of their gender in real life. I know there is a case where traumatised people might try to recreate their trauma. And people with mental disabilities aren't taken seriously too.

Mouthwashing is a psychological horror, Psychological horror does take elements from real studies. I think people forget that.

Of course, it doesn't justify his actions! And i'm not trying to here! He is still a criminal with unforgivable actions.

It kinda reminds me of how people was giving Stella from Helluva boss realistic headcanons and people were like "Abuser apologist" when in reality they aren't. They aren't justifying her behaviour and they are giving a realistic view of real life through the eyes of a fictional characters due that fiction can be important! and Stella being based on Beatrice Horseman (To my knowledge and Beatrice comes from a series that talks about heavy topics) so that is another reason why they would add these headcanons to her.

Of course not all survivors of any kind of abuse will become the abuser. There is sadly cases where survivors continue the cycle of abuse. That's why it is important to break that cycle of abuse in real life.

This is same with people with mental disorders, not everyone with a mental disorder is going to be like Jimmy but there are people who are going to be like Jimmy. But that's not because of their disorder, it's because they aren't a good person. (I seen people reading Jimmy having a mental disorder or multiple disorders. That's why I added this here)

A disorder or a trauma doesn't make someone a bad person end of the day, it's how the person is like. People are different, that's how humans work.

Having characters representing the survivors who broke the cycle and Characters who hasn't are important. It can open people's eyes to things that aren't talked about enough.

This can be executed right with a character who continues the cycle of abuse or commits to the dangerous mindset they were groomed into as a child by an adult or someone is older than them or even the same age due to peer pressure.

At the end of the day,

You can like a character with unforgivable actions without supporting their actions. And you can give them realistic headcanons of them without justifying their actions. And people can dislike the same character as long they aren't harassing people over that character.

[barkzim]

obv no shade to anyone— but i think some people forget/dont realize Swansea likely already knew, and Ive seen discussions that suspect Anya made Swansea promise to not do anything drastic, I mean, yeah, Swansea always kinda acts sassy, but I feel like how he treated Jimmy was just,, *different*, idk. Also, I feel if he didnt know anything, he wouldnt have 1-kept the axe. he kept it and held it away from not only Jimmy, but also Anya. 2- tried to chase down+kill Jimmy after putting down Daisuke. He killed Daisuke because he was in a horrid state, unlikely to make it without Anya there, so he spared him. Jimmy, on the other hand, didnt have any injuries. Nothing, but with having to lose someone similar to a son, losing Anya and his captain (even though Curly wasnt dead, you cant say they didnt “lose” him imo) and now it’s just him and *Jimmy*. The cause of all of this, Swansea isnt dumb, he knows Jimmy *isnt his captain*. Anyway,

AU: Swansea accidentally overheard Anya talking to Curly

[queam]

How (SOME) people in the mouthwashing fandom sound

[kestrelstep]

My thoughts of Daisuke and Anya as parallels.

(**Mouthwashing Spoilers! This is NOT a shipping post.**)

Do y’all ever think about how Anya and Daisuke are framed almost as opposites? Because Anya is associated with night time, the moon, and the one dead pixel on the screen, but Daisuke is a ‘useless ray of goddamn sunshine’ and is associated with the daytime and sunlight. Daisuke dies awake and in pain, while Anya’s death is quiet, subdued, behind closed doors.

I don’t know if this was meant to parallel the two or if it’s just because the two are both associated with the one thing that stands out most prominently on the Tulpar’s appearance, the giant screen, but they do seem to share the same analogy, just two opposite sides of that analogy.

To some extent I also think it describes their perspectives on life, with Anya being more depressed, reserved, and heartbroken after everything that’s happened to her and all the rejection (from med school) and suffering she’s lived through, while Daisuke’s outlook is always optimistic and overly confident, ‘no worries’.

I would also describe them as different levels of visibility. Because Anya is constantly ignored, her opinions set aside and her pain treated as inconsequential, while Daisuke’s pain is obvious and blatantly in front of them, to the extent that Swansea kills him to stop his suffering.

They’re just two sides of the same screen.

[linkcharacter]

Really like the recent analysis. I know I speak of curly in a more defensive way than most but I generally try to get the point you made across at the end of the day with my analyses on him and his behaviors.

People love to lock analyses around Curly solely based on what he could’ve done as a physical action and have this avoidance to acknowledging the realistic barriers at play when it comes to those solutions. It’s. The game tries to treat the pre-crash section as if they are grounded in social and organizational realities. So the what if he did this questions about the situation always fall short when the real answer is he either couldn’t or it wasn’t an actual viable option. But then when they talk about what he actually did do it’s surrounded by such bad faith interpretations that his actions were completely intentional or still not affected by outside sources. He’s a very much “road to hell is paved with good intentions” character. He cared too much and that’s a big part of his problem.

There’s such a “perfect victim or nothing” mindset in the fandom where people can’t admit that there are no such things as perfect victims but that also shouldn’t mean that even if there were it would absolve them of the mistakes they made. People want to moralize every action of every character that they don’t realize that some actions are done without any specific morale factor. People just do things, like you said. People assumed failed intentions immediately flip the thought process behind them “he meant to do good but bad happened, he must be bad” and that just is not how people work. It’s how perceptions work but only of the observer.

It’s such a sensitive topic because, yes, you are supposed to be frustrated, even mad, at what Curly didn’t do, but you have to acknowledge the fact these were good intentioned acts even if that good intent did jack squat in the end. That his responses are human and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable and hurt that they were realistic faults of his.

He enabled his friend and it ended bad for everyone including him. No one really tries to argue this fact but everyone seems to think it has to be tied to the morale dilemma and not certain human natures and social factors.

This is all to ask, why do you personally lean towards thinking Curly wouldn’t turn Jimmy in? Are you speaking in the short term of realizing how bad he got or long-term/overall? I feel like he could but it would not be easy and no matter the necessity he’d always have this guilt at feeling bad for doing it.

Ah yes Curly the most imperfect human man character.

Yep yep yep absolutely, people love to assign morality onto characters and call them good or bad and diminishing the depth and nuance of Mouthwashing, filling discussions with bad-faith interpretations or speculating on inconcrete understandings of the incomplete, intentionally vague, context. I adore Mouthwashing to no end for having this oppressive suffocating and constant atmosphere surrounding everything in the game. Really shows off that the environment festers, no one well-meaning guy could create a happy ending with individual actions alone because it's all systematic.

To elaborate from your question tho, at the point Curly was in (if Anya wasn't pregnant scenario), definitely no don't think so (would depend on Anya a too on whether or not she would go to the authorities outside). Curly knew Jimmy was a danger, and I do believe that subconsciously Anya's report to him on Jimmy gnaws at him, but not vividly enough. I want to point out a moment where Anya tells him about the pregnancy, he begins asking "Who would you-", then he's nudged by Anya that she told him and he should know who it is, and he does, instantly saying he's known him a long time and will talk to him. That moment of, for a second not connecting that Jimmy is the assaulter responsible just makes me drag my palm across my face for how much of a man (derogatory) Curly acted like for one dialogue line. Like he just 'forgot' for a brief moment that Jimmy harassed Anya prior? Granted, he instantly believes and takes Anya seriously, immediately dropping the search for the gun he was on in that scene, realizing the severity of the situation and of Jimmy. We also don't know what Anya has told him specifically, how long ago it happened, etc. but the 'implications' of the scene make me believe Jimmy's known sexual harassment on the ship slipped Curly's mind due to him being more invested in "the bigger picture" of Jimmy, not latching onto a harmful and a very serious fucking trivia fact about Jimmy because of his perception of who his friend is as a whole (and with his foggy sleep-deprived mind at the moment), 'losing a needle in a haystack' with how much unknown history Curly and Jimmy shared, so to say.

Maaaybe in some other circumstances, like if Jimmy didn't crash the ship or smth long term I could see him doing it, it would take a lot effort like you said, no matter the necessity. We will never know. If we're going into speculation and imaginary scenarios though, if Anya HERSELF were to try and get justice, Curly would be backing her up undoubtedly (still not disconnecting himself from Jimmy though and feeling guilt on his behalf). But that's all suppositions from my reading of the characters.

[cherry-pop-elf]

A valid point. To those who can handle such a risk and sight, do it for the people who can not. Fight for those who can not and keep making content

Be brave for people who can’t

Because ya know what?

I’ll be brave

I grew up with unrestricted internet and already saw the gruesome hell they sent out

I’ll be brave for the people who need to protect themselves and keep making content and creating safe spaces to enjoy what WE LIKE

On Christmas Day imma have mouthwashing content qued up and ready to ship

Imma fight back!

New Challenge: Spam mouthwashing content on Christmas Day as retaliation. To flood and drown out their own attack

Fandoms deserve to exist and make content! To be free to write and draw! To discuss and thrive!

Those losers are just edgy kids who have nothing better to do

Let’s keep on being happy and making what makes us happy

Those who can make content keep making content, so those who need to protect themselves know they’ll return to a fandom flooded with content to drown out the hate

Who’s with us?!

hi chat

so I don’t think the raid(s) is gonna happen

why?

(btw you can do what you want, this is my opinion)

they said that they will raid on christmas BUT do we know that’s comfirmed? like don’t ya think they said that to scare us? To feel some sort of power? I think we should relax a bit before we know (and sadly see) that the raid is here/it’s happening.

[damaged-collateral]

[skufdaddyswansea]

Mouthwashing, Dual Protagonists, and Captain Curly

While the vast majority of Mouthwashing is shown from Jimmy's perspective, the events leading up to the Tulpar's crash usually follow Curly. There are several interesting reasons for this, but there's one reason in particular that I'd like to focus on.

By setting Jimmy and Curly up as dual protagonists, we're invited to draw comparisons between them. Not only are they the lenses through which we view the story, they pass the role of Captain back and forth between their chapters.

It's easy to feel sympathy for Curly, given the state he spends the larger part of the game in. It can also be easy to gloss over his more subtle shortcomings when measuring him up against Jimmy.

In this post, I want to take a closer look at Curly's character. And more specifically, how he relates to one of the game's most obvious themes.

Is Curly able to deal with the consequences of his actions? Does he realize his own failures and how they harm the people around him? What does he do with the power he's granted over others?

Does Curly take responsibility?

Jimmy's fixation here gives us a good jumping-off point. It's certainly possible that he's only really been told this once or twice, but because he's Jimmy he's blown it out of proportion out of spite. It's also possible he's entirely making it up because he's projecting, but I think the former is more likely if anything.

And, if I had to take a guess where he heard it from, I'd put my money on The Pony Express itself.

In the eyes of The Pony Express, a "great leader" isn't someone diligent or able to meet the needs of his crew. The real reason Curly was able to rise to the top of the ladder and become captain is because he gets the job done without rocking the boat.

I'm establishing all this because I think it's worth examining by what metric he's being judged. Because, while it may be Jimmy who most often digs this point up, Curly doesn't disagree with him. Even in the depths of his ennui, it's important to him that not only is he the Captain, but a good one at that.

When comparing the two, that can again seem difficult to argue against. Jimmy is quick to lash out and shift blame. His resentment and insecurities often drive him to pick fights. Curly prefers to avoid conflict, but knows his position doesn't always allow him to do so. He tries to pick his battles, but when he has to get involved he focuses on de-escalating the situation.

But although their similarities are few, they do exist. And they greatly influence the narrative. Because it is from their shared selfishness, callousness, and cowardice that the entire story is born.

It's time to address the elephant in the room. We can't draw any conclusions about Curly's nature, his character, his role in the story, and his relationship to its themes without digging into his handling of Anya's assault, and the chain of events that follow.

I find it interesting that we never see the initial conversation Anya has with Curly about the assault. We simply know that she confided in him. He is the Captain, after all. The crew is his responsibility.

The thing is, we don't really need to know the exact conversation they shared, because we can imagine it went quite similarly to their conversation about her pregnancy.

She tells him how scared she is. She fears for her life. It never even occurred to him that she was upset about anything other than losing her job. He swears to her that everything will be fine. They'll fix this. All he has to do is talk to Jimmy.

He does not talk to Jimmy.

Maybe the first time he really did intend to. He just needed time. Jimmy has always had... struggles. If we want to, we can be generous to Curly, we can assume his old problems were much less vile. Otherwise, he would have never pulled the strings to get him this job, never put him in a position of power over vulnerable people. Right? But now, this was whole new beast altogether. Because he and Jimmy go way back, he had to process this, figure out what he was even supposed to say.

But at the same time, The Pony Express had just gone gone under. He'd been struggling with dissatisfaction and indecision for so long, and now his hand has been forced. He has his own problems. And Anya seems fine, doesn't she? If she hadn't said anything, he'd never have even known there was anything wrong. It just doesn't seem that important.

Anya talks to Jimmy herself.

She's scared, she fears for her life. But now she knows now that Curly won't defend her, nor give her the means to defend herself. Still, he promises her, they'll fix this. He just has to talk to Jimmy.

Things are different now. He can't sit by and wait for things to work out anymore. After all, it's not only her problem anymore.

Now it's Curly's problem too. How is he supposed to find another job with this on his record? There's only one other person on this ship who understands what he's going through.

He talks to Jimmy.

And he understands. Not that what he did was wrong, of course. Not that he'd done something horrific, irreversible, cruel. But that it now had consequences, and that he wouldn't suffer them alone.

Curly made his decision. He chose his paper-thin illusion of peace and his eroding friendship with Jimmy over the safety and well-being of his crew. And when it all came tumbling down, he decided it was better to bury them all under the rubble than to face the struggle to rebuild.

If Jimmy hadn't been there, hadn't been his co-pilot, Curly almost certainly would not have been able to bring himself to actually follow through with something so selfish and reckless.

But Jimmy was there, and Curly made sure of that.

So, it's time to ask again. Does Curly take responsibility?

Well, yes.

But it's too little, too late.

As much as Mouthwashing is about Jimmy fighting furiously against the consequences of his actions, it is also about Curly being forced to watch them unfold anyway. His silence and inaction, once a choice, are inflicted upon him by his mangled body.

Jimmy may have crashed the ship, but Curly gave him the keys. And so it's fitting in the end that Curly is made to take the full weight of responsibility by the man who he helped avoid it so many times.

[dykedvonte]

You ever just see a Mouthwashing take that makes you want to bang your head into a wall? I literally just saw someone claim Curly couldn't have been emotionally abused by Jimmy before the crash because he was in a higher position of power than Jimmy.

-Shrimp Anon

The mouthwashing fandom has shown me that people genuinely do believe that certain types of abuse are not as detrimental as other types especially when they deem those immune/resistant, ergo, believing one is objectively worse no matter how it affects the person nor the intersections of power, history and dynamics at play.

Get ready cause this is a yap session:

Cause like it's heavily implied that Curly and Jimmy's friendship was toxic and abusive, pointedly in the direction of how Jimmy uses Curly's belief/comfort in him. Curly wasn't forced to enable Jimmy but he was emotional and mentally on edge around him in almost every scene in some way. Mental and emotional abuse are not contingent on what positions you have at work. Yeah, he's Jimmy's boss but he was Jimmy's friend first and it's like getting into Psych discussion to talk about how social power tends to overshadow any perceived organizational power in the human mind. People are concerned about their jobs ofc but they tend to hang onto and put more value/investment into their personal relationships, hence why there tends to be laws and restrictions around mixing the two.

I always see the sentiments that "Curly is a grown ass man", "Curly is bigger than Jimmy", "Curly is Jimmy's boss", "He just needed a backbone" as criticisms of Curly and while I do agree that on the surface level all of these to be true and viable ways Curly could've taken more control of the situation, I often look at the parallels of Anya and Curly as victims of Jimmy pre/post crash.

The way Jimmy talks to Anya post crash is how he talked to Curly in the pre-crash segments. It's hard to pin-point mainly because we know he hates and wants nothing to do with Anya compared to his contrary but similarly handled obsessions with Curly. It's a weird sort of "honey-moon" effect of abuse Jimmy does in terms of emotional and mental victimization. He is always horrid to Anya, always talking down or questioning her abilities and thoughts in a situation, this of course includes the harassment and assault. However, he has a moment of attempted gentleness/conditioning when he question her about the mouthwash when she's contemplating drinking it at the table. The key difference is he has no personal investment in Jimmy outside wanting nothing to do with him, meaning there is no sort of romanticized version of him that he can condition her off of. He knows this, hence, why he always reverts to trying to make her to scared to oppose him.

This sort of give and take of "kindness" doesn't work on her because she knows he is just doing it to take more from her than whatever he could possibly give but it reflects even the "softer" scenes between him and Curly where he always rewords or rephrases Curly's sentiments and concerns to sound more shallow. He is feigning a deeper understanding by reworking Curly's emotions into something bad and needing to be hidden. Everything is laced with envy and resentment, an outburst just around the corner, I mean he even slams the table in the birthday party scene, a tactic in emotional manipulation to set the victim on edge and cloud their ability to respond. Even if Curly knows Jimmy won't get physical in that moment, the physical actions is intended to make him back down in the confrontation in case it does. This is something that is just not person specific. It ingrains itself into how you interact with the world and life and it shows in major and minor ways with Curly.

Post-crash, the abusive nature is more in tandem to the physical victimization Anya went through and the stripping of voice and autonomy we see take place. Like the parasite in HFIM, Jimmy speaks for Curly most of the time and puts words in his mouth, similarly to how he takes Anya's plans as his own. He very commonly, with the both of them mind you, supplements the worst aspects of himself into them; pettiness, selfishness, lack of understanding... And tries to cover himself with their best qualities; kindness, planning, initiative, etc...

These parallel are just to say that positional power has little to do with if a person can be abused and how it can even be flipped to further the abuse. There is no doubt that Curly could've picked up on Jimmy's envy of his position hence another reason he never confronted him as a Captain but as a friend as doing so would immediately put Jimmy in a space to be confrontational/combative.

I think the disdain some people have when they talk about the heavily implied if not implicitly stated emotional/mental abuse Curly experienced being Jimmy's friend is when treating it as an excuse to why he didn't do more. I can understand that completely because it is not an excuse to why he didn't do more but is a very real reason people in his position in these scenarios can experience whether in the context of a work or social environment. However, I also think the way people talk about it really does demonstrate a bigger problem when talking about abuse when somehow who is/was abused is either part of the issue or enabled it.

Harkening back to the sentiments about Curly's inaction regarding Jimmy, I think the exact phrases I used/have seen show how there is an inherent belief that it is easier to overpower the effects of emotional/mental abuse that go in tandem with the perception of Curly as someone who should be able to. There is not an age you suddenly stop being susceptible to abuse nor a set point or low where you realize how it has affected you. You don't suddenly know to stand up or put a face on to face your abuser nor admit that you inadvertently enabled them to subjugate someone else to the same treatment. Maybe it's my psych brain but their is this growing belief that direct action is somehow easy or always the best method with the game shows you instances where it is not always the case. In real life that rings true too. He should have done more, but it's not impossible to see why he struggled to find a way or didn't even if it makes us mad.

It's not easy to suddenly gain a "back-bone". You don't immediately want to resort to aggression, especially if it mirrors the type you were a victim to. You don't want to believe you allowed yourself to be treated this bad, let it get that bad or allowed something bad to happen to someone else. It is easy to be in denial, to retreat to your thoughts or make excuses to avoid the painful truth. It's frustrating but in a way we know is relatable. It why we both hate and love Curly for it. We know we'd be better, we think we'd be better, we like to think we wouldn't falter in the same ways but it's always easier to say that from the outside looking in. It's easy to see what he was doing wrong because we are seeing it, not him, but the game really does make you picture what you would do if this was your raw reality and it's why this debate about Curly seems so never ending/contradictory. We can all say what we'd do but bottom line is that's much different when you're in the moment with all the emotions and human feelings attached.

I personally think Mouthwashing tackles the themes of rape culture, enabling, toxic masculinity, types of abuse and patriarchy in ways that are meant to deconstruct the typical straightforward views we mostly have of these concepts and how little subtilities of them are just as, if not more, detrimental than the overt/obvious parts. The game deals with the idea of little details and bigger picture in a way to show that sometimes the bigger picture is not the issue but the little details that make it up. It's why I have a personal dislike of depictions of Jimmy as the typical horrible person who would of course do something like this because the game is about noticing the little warning signs, the foreshadowing and foresight.

It's why I dislike the typical discussion of "bro code" and "boys will be boys" for the game because the game makes a point to avoid the standard depictions of such. It is about the type of men who still enable despite not condoning, agreeing or even perpetuating harmful beliefs because they can't see the little details or the ways it seeps into their everyday. The severity is not obvious to them as it was not obvious to Curly, Swansea or even Daisuke the way it was to a woman like Anya. There are little details about Jimmy that should ring alarms but if you are too naive like Daisuke, too distant like Swansea or too conditioned like Curly, they are just off markers.

There is 100% more constructive/concise ways to say "Curly was a victim of Jimmy's abuse on an emotional and mental aspect that clouded his judgements and perceptions in the scenario" while also critiquing on the side of "Curly still had a responsibility to protect Anya as a crew mate and Captain that he failed to do due to biases and stigma's he failed to surpass" without the weird condemnation people give him about should've knowing better than to let himself be manipulated by a person he considered a close, if not family/best-friend and had his own reasons to trust initially. Also stop being weird about victims of abuse in general with this fandom, like sorry not everyone has a like social epiphany the moment someone's nasty to them. People are treating it like you immediately know when you are in a toxic relationship immediately or comprehend when a person is actively dangerous and either it's your fault for not knowing how to leave/cut them off or you deserve it. Like the hypocrisy of people believing how certain fans treat the story reflect their irl views but not their own is crazy.

End statement is: I honestly don't even know man, I've been writing this too long and just like no man on that ship was perfect or really helped Anya when it mattered and I feel like pitting them against each other in discussion on who did the least or most or how it was justified sucks cause in the end Anya always did the most and best thing for herself.