#ml double standard

[jennycinco-5]

ML Zealot : Is that wrong we have female super evil villains ? Is a “GURLS POWAH” show and is make sense why Chloe and Lila are irredeemable bitch !!!!

Let me said something 

Yes ! You can have manipulative or remorseless and vilest evil female villain in the show ! 

BUT

Made them fascinating and enjoyed by fans and contribute for the main plot ! Made them engaging and  truly a threat by show that they are as dangerous as the male villain.

Out of four female villain and antagonist in Agent Ali ,Jenny/Cinco is consider to be more vile, intimidating and petty af woman. And she downright psychotic in recent episode (Season 2 Episode 12) where we can see her brutally beat and mocking her opponent and laugh like a maniac. In previous several episode She also done many terrible thing and almost injure the innocents.

Does the writer wanted us to hate her ? No. They never tell to fans to hate her character just because she is a villain and supposed more vilest than any previous big-bad (Uno and Niki). Hate her or like her is up to you

Then we have her foster sister Kim. She is sympathetic and show lot of more depth than Cinco. She willingly do anything to accomplished her mission from Cinco for sake of Numeros while she does show a remorse for harming innocent and the Main character pet cat. 

Does the writer wanted us to hate Kim too ? No ! Again is up to you to see her as sympathetic or not. And its up to you to still love her or hate her. 

Kim and Cinco are fascinating antagonists just like Dos and Niki. Even some of them admit they are cooler than Uno (the first big-bad of Agent Ali). Writer indeed know how to make them into competent villain like the previous one. 

Lets see on Chloe and Lila

The writer wanted us to hate them so badly to the point THAT GUY claim they are irredeemable monster than the the terrorist and abusive father. The narrative try hard to make them Super EVulZ despite they are a troubled teenager and willingly retcon anything to make them a heartless monster who more dangerous than the main villain while the main villain as a “tragic villain” who deserve to be rewarded because “I LOsE My wAIfu bOhOOOhooo! But ThIs Vor MaH FamIly~”. If you criticize the writer for writing on Chloe and Lila or a fans of these character, writer especially THAT GUY and the Zealot ML will claim that you are “Bully-apologizer” and “as bad as Chloe and Lila”. To make them “work” as “villain” writer make sure that the background character (children and adults) as idiotic as possible to make them look “intimidating” 

Most of Chloe and Lila evil-thing has no impact for the plot. They just do evulz thing because out of spite and THAT GUY hate them for burning passion and also a proof of THAT GUY is a misogynist and full of double-standard . Everytime I see the leaks about them made me roll my eyes.

Is the writer do the same thing on Uno ? Even if Uno has a depth compare to Cinco, writer didn’t paint him as “Tragic Villain” unlike what ML narrative do on Gabemoth. Uno was narcissistic and vengeful man. While he does have moment of humanizing his character, also hate the asshole mayor (Dato’ Othman) and the Chief Pillar aware that Djin betrayal become Uno was part of their fault, the narrative never paint him as “tragic villain” or blaming the Pillar Chief for Uno betrayal

For the other rest antagonist comparison I will write the longer thread in next time because I need to finish watch Agent Ali season 3.

[jeankirsteind]

Yeah, what do you expect from virtual daughter like stalkernette who can do anything without facing consequences because her father always on her side no matter what the other girl who sometimes have a point always get punishment 🤡

I just realized Marinette really is a hypocrite now, like she complained about Chloe using her father's status to get away with stuff and here she is doing the same thing with her own powers

:)

[miraculousdeservesbetter2024]

To be honest, with this series double standards and how it treats Chloe compared to literally everyone else, I’m about 99.9% sure that the lesson that they are trying to purvey (whether if it be about concealment of identity, the mere fact that “not everyone changes” or even “you’re the one who’s solely responsible for your own actions”), only implies to her. Once she’s gone, then none of those lessons no longer exist and you’re not allowed to dislike anyone else, because “no one’s prefect” or “their bad actions are justified”.

[miraculouscriticismshub]

MLB fandom Math be like ......

MLB fandom Maths is calling Adrienette toxic because they dislike Marinette's obsessive behaviour of Adrien and accuse her of stalking but ship Feligami despite how Felix also stalked Kagami and did worse than Marinette by kidnapping her.

MLB fandom Maths is hating on Kagami because she is getting in the way of Adrienette by having feelings for Adrien but is fine with Luka dating Marinette and supporting Luka at the same time.

MLB fandom Maths is saying Chloe doesn't deserve redemption because she never felt remorse or properly apologized for her actions but at the same time, forgive Felix and support his redemption arc despite him doing worse than Chloe and not uttering a single apology or properly repenting for his crimes.

MLB fandom Math is slandering Alya because they think she is a bad friend for believing Lila over Marinette as well as making a few ignorant decisions but go ahead and call Kagami a better friend despite her telling Felix LB's identity without her permission.

MLB fandom Math is attacking and cancelling small creators by accusing them of predator behaviour when they have made a slight mistake but are silent when a big content creator is openly showing predator behaviour.

MLB fandom Math is being quick to call out the toxic behaviour of some Chloe/Felix/Lila stans but staying quiet when some toxic Maribug/Adrichat or Adrienette stans also show signs of aggression, some even go as far as to support their behaviour (e.g what happened to that one Lila fan)

MLB fandom Math is celebrating the fact Chloe gets sent off to live with her abusive mother and is glad that she is written out of the show, justifying their opinion by saying she deserves to be abused by Audrey but if you say the same thing about Felix, they will go mad and call you an abuse apologist

MLB fandom math dislikes Sabrina's redemption because she only betrayed Chloe because she wasn't being benefitted by her friendship with Chloe and was being replaced but go ahead and support Nathalie's redemption when she ALSO betrayed Gabriel because she was also not being benefitted anymore by their partnership.

Disclaimer: These are just common double standards I've seen in the fandom so I thought is important to address this so please stay respectful when commenting :)

[familyagrestefanblog]

Throwing a disclaimer out because I think it's time I say it again just to be sure:

Me having fallen so much out of love with Marinette by now isn't because I hate that her side of the conflicts was given more weight than Adrien's or that I "don't understand that she's the main character"

My problem lies in HYPOCRISY. Marinette's writing ever since season 4 has been going out of its way to be as hypocritical as possible in basically every aspect of the story, but especially the love square, and then it was sold as "justified and totally morally sound feminism" just because it's a girl doing it.

The amount of harmful messages Maribug was retooled into teaching as "empowerment" without any genuine accountability on her part - beside some vagueness sometimes that stops meaning anything the next moment it actually matters - are insane and inherently on child abuse victims expense to the point where I don't actually trust alot of Marinette stans opinions on child abuse and leadership anymore which is the worst thing Marinette's character could have been made to cause.

I hate that sexist HYPOCRISY was declared EMPOWERING as long as the girl benefits from it. I stand under no obligation to support a harmfully hypocritical main character of a female empowerment kids cartoon, and if you think I do, learn what actual feminism is.

I repeat: my problem lies in the deeply interwoven and glorified hypocrisy

NOT in the fact that Marinette's side of the narrative was covered at all.

I was and AM perfectly fine and supportive of that, but what I don't support is the show ever since season 4 hardcore retooling the narrative into ONLY Marinette's side and benefit mattering and in some of the worst and most hypocritical ways possible to the point where Marinette never even made a single effort in finding Hawkmoth to actually DO HER JOB and take a fraction of interest in the man underneath his mask because that wouldn't have been about HERSELF.

Years ago, 2x01 "The collector" promised me a main character who will actually show initiative to end the war in more regards than herself first and foremost becoming the Queen of the world. I signed up for Marinette as main character who will actually SAVE Gabriel's victims with her compassion and drive to help people

I didn't get that beyond the most surface level way possible because Marinette and the narrative were written to prioritizing her being entirely in control of everything, girlbossing her love interest into being her submissive care taker for which she hardly took any accountability for, and looking cool hitting stuff including her love interest and the remains of her Villain's wife who never wanted this, but Marinette threw a fucking LIFT on her body to get a strategic advantage over Gabriel by taking advantage of Gabriel's remaining humanity and love for the very woman at the core of all this.

Emilie, who was fridged and silenced beyond anything resembling to feminism, but it HAD to happen because Emilie's story isn't about Marinette and the narrative had to make sure Marinette will be celebrated "as such a cool girlboss!" for throwing a fucking LIFT on the remains of the villain's loved one while she simultaneously failed Emilie's son - Marinette's own "partner" - so MUCH as partner and leader that he had literally no way to possibly make it out of this partnership because Marinette teached Chat Noir that she's all that matters, he gets no support, help, resources, or a voice when it isn't to her benefit.

When the chips are down, he has to die quietly and give up his ring because Ladybug couldn't be asked to look beyond her personal experience, benefit and comfort in this "partnership" while simultaneously needing to be taken care of, as good as worshipped, and celebrated by him like a mind reader for EVERYTHING because she wasn't "ill-intentioned"

Which she is explicitly written to prioritize people understanding that about her than actually working on herself in ways that truly matter.

I once signed up for Marinette being the main hero and savior of Paris and Gabriel's victims, but all I got is glorified hypocrisy thats sold as "empowerment" and a worshipped girlboss main heroine who postponed doing her job so fucking much that the main villain shaped the entire in-universe world already BEFORE he won and made his wish, as well as several characters being damned and irreversibly negatively affected by his power and influence over and on them by the time Marinette was finally spoon-feed into being able to face Hawkmoth at literally 11:59 pm.

But hey, I suppose all that mattered was Marinette BENEFITTING from that to sweep her own big flaws under the rug, as well as her looking cool hitting stuff in different super hero suits to she can become the Queen of the world.

I would apologize for having thought that Marinette's hero's journey was about more than that, but that's literally nothing I have to apologize for.

[broadwaycutie16]

Oh big whoop de do. Marinette deliberately let Adruen’s life fall to complete and total permanent ruin just to spite him for some teenage drama, and let what she KNEW to be a dangerous havoc-reeking psycho roam free with millions of dollars that she could use to continue hurting the innocent in infinite ways, but she didn’t actually physically harm anyone, so we should go easy on her for not being as much of a b!t€h as she could have been!

Maybe Marinette couldn’t have completely protected Adrien, but she COULD have stopped the karma piling on him from becoming too much. She could have denied the accusations when he was first rumored to be a terrorist accomplice, or gotten his money back from Lila who stole it illegally, but she chose not to for no actual gain than to see Adrien suffer. Even without her help, Adrien would have been punished enough for his actions. But she deliberately let him choke on everything out of spite. And THAT’S why she’s being punished.

Here’s the thing — I know that Marinette’s punishment in Karmic Backlash was unfair. That was the whole point. The karma system in the original story made it perfectly clear that those who enable others to do bad are more deserving of its wrath than those who actually do do bad. If Adrien deserved everything he got in the original story, then by that logic Marinette deserves the same if not worse, since she did all the same things he did in the original story and for no real gain but some kind of warped triumph.

The only reason people are saying it’s unjust in KBl and not in KoL is because the narrative doesn’t favor Marinette. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that what happened to Adrien was more or less okay and that what happened to Marinette wasn’t.

[stormiclown]

Is it just me or does Marinette have it worse compared to Adrien narratively and in the fandom?

Let’s go over the facts:

Marinette has two bullies while said bullies are rubbing themselves all over Adrien

Marinette is the one constantly embarrassing herself and tripping over a guy who barely acknowledges her

Adrien gets to put other peoples feelings (her bullies) above her’s, but if Adrien isn’t her priority 24/7 she gets bashed to hell and back by the fandom

Adrien is the one who gets to be akumatized and destroy the world, but if Marinette even shows the slightest bit of negativity she gets bashed for being ‘too emotional’ and ‘Irresponsible’

Adrien gets to ‘move on’ with Kagami and actively chase another girl with a mask and got almost no flack from the fandom, but Marinette actively trying to move past Adrien with Luka even though her secret identity keeps getting in the way gets her scorn from the fandom, her friends, and the universe bending over backwards to punish her for trying to leave Adrien behind her

Adrien’s jealousy can get excused but Marinette’s earned her a rival who trying to get her hero persona murdered

It’s alway Ladybug who has to deal with people hating her and trying to destroy her via working with a terrorist and having to endure them in her civilian life (Chloe and Lila) but Chat Noir is never on the receiving end of this

Marinette is portrayed as a jealous person who can’t change how she views people (despite her becoming best friends with Kagami, supporting her relationship with Adrien, and tried to get them together twice Frozer and Pigeon 72), but Adrien’s jealous destructive jealously is either brushed off or justified by the narrative and the audience

Adrien gets to be a bad partner to Kagami for no good reason,but Marinette’s struggle to balance out her secret identity as well as her relationship but gets treated as an even worse partner

Adrien gets to be a bad partner and throw childish tantrums but Marinette is somehow the terrible, irresponsible, toxic, abusive one

Marinette is always held up to unfair standards and expectations while Adrien has close to none both narratively and in the fandom

Marinette is the one bashed for not helping Adrien escape his abusive father (despite being 14) but Adrien is never bashed for not standing up to his father (his age is always used to excuse his passive behavior)

These are just the few I can think of off the time up my head but it’s pretty clear whose side the show is on. This is clearly a show that young girls should look up to.😘

Feel free to reblog and add more if I’m missing anything.

[iwasbored777]

Miraculous Ladybug with Chloé: Being abused doesn't excuse your racism and abuse of other people and you can't have a relationship with Adrien because you don't understand him. The trauma you gave to Marinette makes you irredeemable.

Miraculous Ladybug with Félix: Being abused does excuse your racism and abuse of other people and you can have relationship with Kagami despite you not understanding her. The trauma you gave to Marinette makes you redeemable.

[flightfoot]

The chimney comment made me think about a conversation i had with my sister, and me think about like:

Chat noir breaking a chimney

Fandom: he's misogynistic he hates two women working together without him, Racist cause alya is woc, it's toxic masculinity and he is violent and malicous just like his father

Chloe making racist comments to marinette and her uncle, putting cockroaches in her locker, willingly joining a terrorist,

Fandom : She is just misunderstood and is acting out to get approval of her mother, stop "victim blaming"

I agree that the salty fandom response to Chat breaking the chimney was dumb and paid no attention to what was actually going on in the story, but I'd rather not pit him against Chloe here. Chloe has plenty of faults, but I am still sympathetic to her, and like to look at the different reasons why she is the way she is and how she could become better.

[angelshizuka]

If movie!Adrien/Cat Noir was a girl, but still acted 100% the same, people would've called him a "gril boss" instead of a douchebag.

I know, because I've been in fandoms for 20 years and have seen this kinda stuff play out over and over again, y'all people aren't sublte.

[gameguy20100]

Regarding your discussion of the Felix/Chloe double standard, anon just wants to say I continue to be impressed by how much integrity you have compared to the saltdom. You've made it no secret that Chloe disgusts you, and for good reason since she's a terrible person. Thus, if a double standard negatively impacts her, that's in your self-interest. Yet you're still willing to call out an injustice that BENEFITS you, not just an injustice that harms you personally. If only more fans were like you.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

Yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that Chloe disgusts me. But Felix is way worse.

If I had to choose between the spoilt narcissistic brat, and the guy who abuses his cousin, assault's 2 girls sexually (Technically 3 if you count ladybug and Marinette as different people. Which from his perspective they are.) Gaslights a girl into a toxic romance by using her trauma against her after stalking and kidnapping her.

And her species is the only reason you didn't kill her. (Honestly the fact Kagami is Japanese is the only reason I don't call Felix a white supremacist.)

I'll take the narcissistic brat.

In fact, look at the crimes. Felix and Chloe are very similar.

Chloe: Abuses her sister. Assaults Adrien, betrays Ladybug. Gets punished.

Felix: Abuses his cousin. Assaults Marinette, betrays Ladybug. Gets rewarded.

What's the difference between Chloe and Felix? Don't answer you know what it is.

[emsylcatac]

people will bash the s5 finale for "redeeming Gabriel" and then turn around and praise the movie for doing that exact thing 💀

Jdjdjsjsbs i know right, make up your mind people!! Especially because the show very obviously didn't redeem him

Like if someone has no problem with Gabriel being redeemed and finds that cool in the movie then honestly good for them, all the better! And I def understand that the finale left some people unsatisfied or confused so that they would lash onto the movie ending instead

But I got some anons back when I watched the movie at the start of July straight up asking how I could be ok with Gabriel "being redeemed and made a hero in the show" while sending asks about how the movie ending was more satisfying. And in this case I'm like hey. Do you realise. Gabe is actually "more" redeemed in the movie or... 😐

(Though to be fair it has yet to be confirmed with how the movie ended. Not that I'll take the time to watch the 2nd movie to find out but things seemed unresolved. Nonsensically so but unresolved nonetheless)

[plumsaffron]

Roasting the miracusalters as much as I can! Pt. 4!

I hope y’all got your rabies shots because I can see your frothing saliva from a distance!

Brainrot? You and your content are the prime example of that on the poor new internet users. Not just the low quality content farms on YouTube or anywhere else.

Y’all feel that triggered by minor inconveniences such as school issues? I STG I didn’t hear shit like that on canonically difficult battles!

Could y’all tag properly? Or separate them from other things? There’s a thing called specific tagging for your so-called pathetic plots not just tags referring to the series as a whole!

Wait… do some y’all secretly have a vendetta against black and white people? That’s why Alya and Adrien usually get the short end of the stick in your content?? Even though Marinette is half Caucasian and half Asian??? Not trying to accuse anyone but I’m seeing a pattern with that kind of psychological projection with the hurtful racial stereotyping.

Hold up, are some of y’all rabid SJWs trying to create hetero erasures? Because I’ve been seeing less straight characters in fanworks, unless they’re being used for your pathetic bashing too. And why the fuck did you make some characters homophobic? That’s wrong and inappropriate! The show actually has some canonical LGBT characters and couples!

Speaking of TVTropes, the character bashers’ content are the equivalent to Stinkmeaner’s crew from the Boondocks (hating everyone) but way less funny even with good consistent writing. Also actually unreasonable, pathetic and delusional as fuck even when canon made significant improvements.

Double standards Double standards…:

Miracucunts when a character has hurt feelings: “*le gasp* Who hurt you?! Lemme fight them!”

Miracucunts when Adrien has hurt feelings: “Oh come on! Suck it up! You weren’t acting like this before!”

Miracutards when any non-ML character tries to be good: “Redemption Arc let’s gooooo!! I know you’ve killed someone/many people but you were forced to do it! Blame it on that fucker for turning you into a criminal!”

Miracutards when any of the most salted/hated characters try to be good: “No no, you don’t deserve to be redeemed for going behind your friends’ backs/turning against them!”

Miracubozos when a literal murderer does something: “Aww! Hope that ‘victim’ was a really bad guy!”

Miracubozos when one of their canon characters does something: “WTF?! Immature fool! Bitch ass! Bad writing!”

Miracutwits when a character is written as a Yandere even if they go too far: “But they’re also hot! They truly love their sempai more than those admirers!”

Miracutwits when their canon character is written as a Yandere who didn’t do too much: “FBI OPEN UP! They deserved to be locked up or executed ASAP! They’re sick in the head!”

Miracusalters are crabs in a bucket.

Miracrabs do love making minor inconveniences their real struggles in life. They the type to be able to defeat the final boss countlessly but they would collapse facing a common enemy in practice mode that rarely appears in the game. I’m almost curious how they survive in real life.

Maririding is a big epidemic for the miracustankdom. Seems a lot only accept when Adrien and Alya subjugate themselves completely to the supreme order or they Cat Walker into the collective populous’ or hotshots' interests. They are bored or just want to find or make up excuses to fume upon the two and hold onto it, just because they didn’t function as they wanted them to.

They’re kind of funny forsaking the two, all because they want them to do only what they think they should only in this specific way into to. If Adrien or Alya were to react different from what some watchers collectively seen or the duo had another different perspectives from them, miracumsocks still would collapse. They talk about how they want something different but they really just want same old apples permanently instead of pears and possible other fruits. They don’t want fruits at all, only this one, this way, this shape and form.

Seems as long as they do not align to their status quo of how the believe things should go, they still would be rather ugly to the two still. Surely have a strange lust for attacking characters they see as weaker or easy targets. Probably because they feel like it or because they are who they are or what they are. Just because it’s them. It’s likely they would find another character to scapegoat if either didn’t exist. It’s a twisted form of worshipping the two.

Speaking of projecting, such peeps are really lame. They have seen episodes in their face why projecting too much is bad and what it leads to. Instead, such scuds have related heavily to the projecting will or absorbed into their being and spread it all around. Appears they use it as a mask of righteousness or somethings. Believing they accomplished something. Think they found a solution but they would still end up repeating the cycle. Just as they’ve been doing for years to almost a decade.

Sucks they don’t understand what Adrien’s been through (and still unfortunately is going through). Strange scales they use against him or induce invalid equalization to bring him down.

They sure like being choosey when to be offended and when to completely brush it off as rubbish or making out to be it’s this one’s fault when it clearly shows it’s not. Disturbing points of distortion of what they’ve seen and known, inorder to fit how they wished it did (and unfortunately many followed that way as truth).

A lot of times people saying bad writing seems more like an escape term used just because they fumed over things not going the collective way and others agree upon like mindless mobs. They also use it when defending a character clearly in the wrong or be like ah I blame the writers but if it was another character, it open fire (and strangely may include if they are in the right) It’s all they can hold onto. Kind of like flaw finders that want to suddenly hate found flaw. Maybe they are badly written & wish to continue that for themselves.

But yeah Double Standards This Miracuscabhorrent Fandom Has.

[miraculouscriticismshub]

I've noticed something in the MLB fandom which is that a lot of Chloe stans (not all of them) seem to dislike/hate Felix while a lot of Felix stans (not all of them) seem to dislike/hate Chloe which is interesting because Felix and Chloe are really similar and have some things in common.

I've noticed that too. From what I've seen in the fandom , is that you either Stan one or the other or you hate both. From my observations :

People who stan Chloe but dislike Felix seem to mostly be Chloe Stans and some Adrien stans

People who stan Felix but dislike Chloe seem to be mostly Felix stans with some Nathalie/Gabriel/Kagami fans

People who dislike both Characters seem to be mostly Marinette Stans and some Zoe stans as well.

Tbh , I DON'T blame Marinette stans for hating both Felix and Chloe as both have been nasty to Marinette in the past. I also can understand why some Chloe stans resent Felix because they have been told time and time again by the show that Chloe is undeserving of redemption for not repenting for any of her crimes yet in S5 we witnessed Felix pretty much get away with everything he did between Strike Back and Emotion and got to keep his miraculous and join the hero team despite being 10x worse and not apologising once. That will get anyone angry. What does confuse me is some of the Chloe disliking Felix stans that don't admit the double standard. Some Chloe disliking Felix stans do admit the double standards going on but the ones who don't puzzle me? What has Chloe ever done to Felix ? They are quite similar like you said so it's interesting some people dislike Chloe for the same reasons they like Felix for ?

[adhd-mess]

fuck

am i seriously going to give defend the dawn a third chance? just bc a song fits tessa, and despite how i hate it, i love her to pieces? yes, yes i will

[fred-the-dinosaur]

If someone wants another actual yogurt+flour thing that's gluten free and tastes good, here is also my recipe for buckwheat latkes.

2 dl buckwheat flour

1 dl yogurt + 1.5 dl water + optional splash vinegar/lemon juice (or just 2.5 dl buttermilk)

1 egg

1 tsp salt

0.5 tsp baking powder

pinch salt

Method: beat it all together then fry in a buttered skillet like drop scones/latkes/small pancakes/regional equivalent. Ie. A little under a dl at a time, usually I get three in the big frying pan in one go. When they bubble and loosen from the pan you can flip them.

They freeze and defrost well, and can be reheated easily. As long as you like buckwheat. There's a whole thing where a gluten free recipe is so rarely actually two or three ingredients but this one is 7 including water and salt, less if you can get buttermilk where you are. ( We use yoghurt water mix bc only the yoghurt is lactose free.) And they actually taste great, and feel like a proper pancake.

Okay so I don't want to respond directly to the post because it seems like it wouldn't be polite, but that recipe for 1:1 yogurt/flour fry bread that's floating around is. Well. I'm not going to say it's bad, and I'm sure some people will like it, but it tastes overwhelmingly of yogurt and you *have* to add salt and even then it still tastes like yogurt.

Also someone on that post was like "is this Naan? This is naan! I didn't know naan was so easy to make" and that's because it's not. Naan requires yeast and butter and salt and does include some yogurt but it's like one part yogurt four parts flour, not 1:1.

Anyway. I made it and I found it so unpleasant that I threw out more than half the dough. It didn't taste good with garlic butter, it didn't taste good with vinegar, it didn't taste good with the lentil soup I made it to pair with.

There are some decent simple flatbread/fry bread recipes out there but "mix one part yogurt and one part flour then fry and dip in vinegar" is not one that worked for me personally. And if you're going to try it, please please please add salt.