#misogyny talk

[thejojolands-moved]

I'm not big into Demon Slayer, I always watch a new season but I'm not hardcore. It's a very fun thing just to turn on, especially when I'm sick. But every single time I watch it I just get so taken back by the Shounen misogyny.

Like Season 1, honestly not that bad all things considered. There's a lot of women that all have their own interesting things going on, from swordswomen like Shinobu, to the nurses, and to the many demonesses (? Is that the proper term? No clue lol). They were interesting and got a lot of screen time. Women's roles were very much skewed to being nurses, which isn't the best, but it's a historical fantasy so I can understand there being more in that area with less in combat roles. Still, many had their own inner world and aspects outside of men in their lives. They are heavily involved yes, and Kano changing her whole life because of a man was good, but it's definitely had a stronger start than many anime. It is also fun to see some men have the same writing as a lot of stereotypical Shounen ladies and not have it shoved in the audience's face the irony. Zenitsu is unbelievably annoying, so it's not the best execution on a character so prominent, but shrug.

I don't have much on the movie, it wasn't the best either but far from the worst. There's more ladies here who are interesting but the combat focus isn't on them which is fine, not great but fine, for a movie, honestly. They need to hone in and it did a good job on that.

Season 3 is where it starts to get iffier. The focus is on geisha, shinobi, and a demon geisha. The male main cast even had to disguise as women to help investigate, fun stuff! The issues come in how those women are depicted. Most are pretty one note, with some that are moreso 2 note then fully developed. All stuff that made me want more clarification. It didn't help that all the women were notably weaker compared to the men. I get that the protagonists are mostly dudes, so that's the cost of them women, but most women on their side couldn't hold their own in the slightest. The main villainess being revealed to have a stronger villain brother who needs to be defeated is hypothetically fun but just makes it worse that all the women got their shit rocked so early on.

Then we get to season 4 and Kanroji who is very much billed as a main character but gets largely shafted. It doesn't help that she's very blatantly a "x trope but better and more ironic" character. It's played too genuine to be effective and it's wear all the previous issues really boil over. They do improve her combat, she's not getting obliterated immediately but shows up very late in the battle side of things to be effective. It really stings in a season that has less of the main cast to they could absolutely focus on her more. Plus the whole trope subversion that's too obvious. It was subtle, but annoying, earlier on. But with Kanroji it's all so tongue and cheek and could be very funny (being a waifu that horrifies everyone? Turning hair colors because she's a shrimp? Hilarious ideas!) It's all just played too straight to where it falls into the trope instead of subverting it.

Then there's Nezuko across all seasons. Man is Nezuko a ton of missed potential, especially since there is a character very much like her already in Shounen (what is Alphonse Elric?). Frankly, outside of moments with tanjiro (mostly in backstory and the end of season 4) and all the time with guys sleeving on her, she could just be replaced with a sick, super powered puppy and not much would change. It's always her and that damn box, where she's forced out of the story to hibernate until it's time to battle and get her ass kicked. It's just disappointing, honestly. Especially compared to other women in Shounen who are leaps ahead and especially characters like Alphonse who she has so much in common with. There's a struggle there and while yes it is of course difficult for Tanjiro, it's gotta be GNARLY for Nezuko. But it's barely explored. Hoping it gets better after Season 4, because there's so much there to be explored and to make her shine but so far, it's nada.

[tiredyke]

some of you guys view misogyny as simply men being mean to women and not a systemic hierarchical issue that prevents women from gaining liberation, support systems or a socioeconomic foothold and it shows every time you talk about “misandry”

[mahoutoons]

honestly i wish the only way for magical girls to get respect wasn't for them to be as close to shonen as possible.

"unlike other magical girls, precure has hand to hand combat! its dbz for girls!"

"i know princess tutu's name is stupid but its actually not girly at all!"

"sailor moon isn't ACTUALLY for little girls because [insert scene of characters suffering or creepy stuff from the manga here]"

"madoka is better than other magical girls because its DARK"

like do magical girls really needs to be dbz but girly to be worthy of respect? can't they just be... magical girl shows? a show can be unapologetically girly and aimed at girls and still be worth checking out. yes, princess tutu is girly. yes, sailor moon is girly. yes, precure is girly. yes, madoka, despite being a seinen and darker, ultimately upholds the messages of the genre. and they're all awesome and deserve respect on their own merits, not as a comparison to popular shonen shows.

[thebutchtheory]

the more i read about transandrophobia as a concept from 'transandrophobia truthers', the more i just end up feeling like these specific experiences are better explained under things like 'gender essentialism' or 'oppositional sexism', or that at the very least these terms need to be brought into discussion of transandrophobia more, but they aren't.

a lot of transandrobros end up coming off like MRAs because they're trying to describe experiences that they don't have proper wording for, and then go on to speak in ways that clearly shows they haven't unlearned [internalized] misogyny/toxic masculinity, gender essentialism and oppositional sexism themselves. often because they haven't read any theory on the subject, and because a lot of them outright refuse to read up on transfeminist theory or understand transmisogyny as a systemic force outside of 'misogyny that trans women experience' or 'transphobia that trans women experience'. then they go on to try and talk over trans women about transmisogyny, or speak about trans women discussing transmisogyny in some extremely bigoted ways because of it.

like, the amount of trans women discussing transmisogyny who have read or even written entire books about transmisogyny, transfeminism and feminism in general seems to be astronomical compared to the amount of trans men discussing transandrophobia that i KEEP seeing. i've seen trans men who have read theory, but they seem to be the bigger popular bloggers that others base their opinions off of, if that makes sense. as if other people in the community are trying to theorize on what people who have actually read theory are saying, without reading any theory themselves.

so much of what transmascs experience is related to misogyny, but it's also related to gender essentialism, oppositional sexism, and toxic masculinity--all things which the trans community has taken from cisgender heterosexual society and applied it to themselves in a way that is Queer Inclusive This Time, yet they never question it.

i'm BEGGING transandrophobia truthers to read books about trans oppression, and to bring this language into your vocabulary when discussing your experiences. when i started doing that with my experiences as a butch on T, it gave me a new perspective on all of it, and the queer community itself.

[trans-androgyne]

“Where there’s no name for a problem, you can’t see a problem, and when you can’t see a problem, you pretty much can’t solve it.” - Kimberlé Crenshaw on intersectionality

To those who can’t seem to comprehend why transmascs are insisting on a word to describe their intersection of transphobia and misogyny (and conditionally anti-masculine sentiment)

[mistyscenter]

People be like: "we love tsunderes!!" But when the tsundere is a woman then she's the most annoying character in the franchise

People be like: "we love mean characters!!" But when that character is a woman then she's evil, and uncomfortable, and actually we don't like her

People be like: "we love kind characters!!" But if the character is a Black man/woman then they're ignored and never talk about or deemed boring

People be like: "stop spreading hate and negative" And the hate and negative will be pointing out misogyny and racism in fandom spaces

[baeddling]

This is what we're talking abt btw, we can be posting the most milquetoast basic feminism on earth and we have our intelligence insulted and are told that because we talk about transmisogyny we must hate our trans brothers. This is a textbook reactionary response to feminist criticism of misogyny and it is sickening to see it becoming an acceptable mainstream position in trans politics yet again

[alicentflorent]

Alicent never raised her sons to believe women couldn’t rule and I don’t recall her ever suggesting Rhaenyra was going to be an incompetent ruler, her main criticism towards Rhaenyra was about her having obvious bastards that were passed off as legitimate which could contribute towards a succession crisis if someone challenges their legitimacy. She raised her kids to fear Rhaenyra because despite the fact that Aegon had no interest in pushing his claim “you’re a threat simply by existing” she raised them to believe that they could be killed for existing because other men might not accept a woman on the throne when there are male heirs and at any point the lords could rebel and try pushing the claims of viserys’ sons even if they pledge their support for Rhaenyra. She genuinely feared for her children’s lives to the point where it made her paranoid and impacted her relationships with everyone including her children. So can we stop with the “Alicent raised her sons to believe women were incapable rulers and shouldn’t be in positions of power and now it’s coming back to bite her” bs

[jerseymuppet]

like. okay i’m in bandom and like the only people that consistently talk about the women here are all. lesbians. or the feminists here for riot grrrl. but like. for every post about laura jane grace there are one thousand about gerard way. for every post about hayley williams there are one million about frank iero. and when a post goes around about women you can bet there are people in the tags talking about ls dunes and pete wentz and it’s like. fine cool. but Also.

[ciderjacks]

Someone made a really well written post on chilchuck and misogyny, but its not able to be rbed so im just sharing my analysis of it here. Bc i love this topic. I love it so much.

[itscuntingseason]

there are fascists, 'free market' liberals, kids who call you homophobic slurs and literal race supremacists in disco elysium, and yet, the worst character to talk to is this fucking guy.

[saint-ambrosef]

everyone wants to make fun of "im not like other girls" and "im only friends with boys" kind of girls and accuse them of being pick-mes, but nobody is ready for the conversation about how that kind of attitude often originates in girls who have been ostracized, ridiculed, and traumatized by other women in their lives due to toxic feminine culture.

[mamawasatesttube]

just saw a post with nearly a hundred notes that said tim has two love interests, kon and bernard. yall apologize to women everywhere right the fuck now,

[ratmans-notebooks]

everyone listen to me right now. trans men & transmascs are targets of misogyny. crazy idea i know but when youre seen as a woman and/or shoved into the woman category people will be misogynistic to you. it is fuckign crazy the amount of posts ive been seeing syaing stuff like "trans men think theyre exempt from being mras cause the dr said they were a girl once" or "having a pussy doesnt mean you cant be sexist" and its like. YEAH OBVIOUSLY having a pussy doesnt mean you cant be sexist but jesus christ the presumption that trans men are unaffected by their asab or that theyve never ever experienced anything like misogyny is wilddd!! not to mention why are we still referring to transmascs by their (assumed) genitals. like its obviously vile to reduce transfems & trans women to their genitals but the same people who realize this seem to have no problem doing it to transmascs

[erros429]

i just kind of hate how every time someone is writing a female character, there is far more scrutiny on whether she is “good” representation. like no one ever writes a male character and is like “hmm… is this good representation for men?” because they’re ALLOWED to be written as smart or stupid, or serious or funny, or sensitive or mean, or loud or quiet, or competent or irrational, or jovial or angry, or wise or inexperienced, or pathetic or badass, or good or evil, or complex or one-dimensional. and they will ALWAYS be loved in some shape or form.

but the MOMENT a woman is any one of those things (even tho women irl can ALL have these traits), there are video essays and entire blogs and articles dedicated to Why That’s Not A Good Woman. and like YES, good female representation is important. i acknowledge and agree with that to hell and back. but god damn let these writers breathe. no one is ever going to want to write women again if we shove these impossible standards down their throats.

[spitblaze]

I will say this once because I'm tired of seeing stupid discourse: anti-transmasculinity is not about being treated bad because we clock as men, it's about being treated as stupid little girls because transphobes think we've been tricked into this.

It's kind of the opposite of transmisogyny- instead of fear and revulsion, it's constant condescension, the implications that we've been whisked away from femininity by scary bad guys, that we're going to cause 'irreparable damage' because we don't know what's best for ourselves, somehow. People fearmonger a lot about the "ugliness" of transfem people, but for transmasc people that 'ugliness' is used as a warning- you'll look like THIS! You'll go BALD! Your top surgery scars will leave you MUTILATED! A lot of aesthetic concerns. Worry about our 'beauty'. Because it comes from that same stupid reactionary 'we gotta SAVE the WOMEN' shit, but this time they have to save them from getting 'stolen away', as if we're being seduced or pressured into this. As if we can't make our own decisions.

For TERFS specifically, they're losing one of their own. We're 'gender traitors', willingly aligning ourselves with the half of the population they consider unilaterally dangerous and evil.

We aren't REALLY trans, we just want the benefits that men get. You don't actually want to transition, you're just trying to avoid misogyny.

You aren't actually a man, you're just a self-loathing lesbian.

Why can't you just be a butch girl? Why can't you just be a tomboy?

Why can't you just be something that I don't think is icky?

Anyway. Like all things, it boils down to misogyny. Women stupid and gentle, dont know what best for them, evil men trick into taking man juice, must save because lady stupid and dont know what best for them (having babies and being Feminine).

Theres like. Obviously more to this but I'm just a Transmasc Rando explaining this from my perspective, and I'm not the best with words. Anyone is free to hop in and add on to this