#mike’s lack of attraction to el

[aemiron-main-backup]

“milkvan is supposed to be romantic/mike had a crush on El/the duffers and directors set it up to look romantic we’re supposed to take it seriously romantically”

oh. ok. we’re supposed to take the couple that went “will you be like you brother?” and “no-well yeah I guess-“ before they kissed in a room with a giant rainbow on a bulletin board in it seriously? while she was wearing his sister’s dress no less? a sister who she is constantly fucking paralleled to?

milkvan has something that byler doesn’t have that automatically disqualifies it from being taken as seriously romantically as byler: familial parallels. byler, two best friend boys who would usually be referred to as brothers are never even referred to as anything CLOSE to brothers even ONCE in the show. And yet Mike and El have an absolutely fucking Insane number of brother-sister and father-daughter and “paralleled to eachother’s parents in general” parallels. milkvan is not intended by the duffers nor the directors nor anyone else on the ST production team to be taken seriously and especially not as seriously as byler. if it was, they wouldn’t have included the insane number of familial parallels.

I’m not saying that milkvan is incest: I’m saying that there’s no fucking point to those parallels outside of being used to indicate a platonic, non romantic bond from the start.

Freud would have a fucking field day with some of you guys fr. It’s one thing to not be Aware of the milkvan familial parallels- it’s another to be aware of them and still try and claim that the duffers were trying to set up a genuine, meant-to-be-taken-seriously romance/crush between Mike and El.

Some elements of Mike and El’s relationship ARE framed and presented as being romantic on the surface- because they’re kids figuring themselves out AND because how the fuck are the duffers supposed to pull a straightbait if they don’t set the “straight” part of it up first?? It’s literally a show that talks about people who only look at the curtain vs people who look behind it. but the show has to set up that curtain- and the curtain in this case is setting up Mike and El to seem like a romantic couple but putting enough subtext (and blatant text frankly) such as mike’s lack of attraction to girls, the fact that the “pretty” parallels (right down to the soundtrack) indicate that the “pretty” scene was 100% not intended to be romantic, the familial parallels, etc etc etc to indicate that Mike and El aren’t actually romantic/attracted to eachother, esp mike towards El. That’s the “behind” the curtain part.

Like please be fr. We’re supposed to take the “‘she’s my cousin’, ‘will you be like my brother’, wearing my sister’s clothes and makeup, El paralleled to Karen and mike paralleled to Ted, mike paralleled to hopper and brenner, El paralleled to Nancy, milkvan parallled to stancy, ‘we should send her to an asylum,’ lying monologue, can’t say ‘I love you’ to her conscious face without Will in the room even once, etc” ship seriously????

That’s part of why I’m so big on gay Mike too: because if Mike was genuinely ever into El/in love with her, they would be telling a story of falling out of love, mike and El would have some beautiful but heart wrenching rain fight parallel scene. But they don’t. Their rain fight parallel scene is a scene played for gags at the mall (where they’re talking about family/mike’s grandma yet AGAIN and El is paralleled to her bc mike says he was buying a gift for nana but was actually looking for one for El and also Mike has dialogue that parallels Hopper) where “cold as ice” by foreigner plays (a song about shallow, surface-level relationships and commercialism and that was literally said by foreigner to be their most pop-like, surface level, commercialized song) and where El laughs and giggles with Max and isn’t sad at ALL about dumping mike.

Like honestly some of you guys have some serious audacity comparing Will’s pain and heartbreak in scenes like the post rain fight and during rain fight scenes to El’s pain/scenes like the mall. Does El suffer in her relationship with Mike? Absolutely. But even El herself says that Mike is her first boyfriend and what she’s consistently MORE upset about is the lying. Because mike’s always said that “friends don’t lie” so mike lying to her = not friends & she doesn’t want to lose him as a friend. I just really think it’s actually absurd to compare (compare in a way that claims they’re equal) Will’s scenes and heartbreak especially in s3 to El’s scenes regarding Mike. Will was fucking sobbing in the dark and the rain and traumatized and using a baseball bat (representative of his homophobic father) to destroy his safe place after a fight with Mike, whereas after El’s paralleled fight with Mike, she was giggling with max and eating icecream in bright sunlight. will talked about how he thought they were going to stay in mike’s basement/be together forever and then calling himself stupid for it. El was talking about how Mike is just her “first boyfriend.”

“milkvan is supposed to be romantic/mike had a crush on El/the duffers and directors set it up to look romantic we’re supposed to take it seriously romantically”

oh. ok. we’re supposed to take the couple that went “will you be like you brother?” and “no-well yeah I guess-“ before they kissed in a room with a giant rainbow on a bulletin board in it seriously? while she was wearing his sister’s dress no less? a sister who she is constantly fucking paralleled to?

milkvan has something that byler doesn’t have that automatically disqualifies it from being taken as seriously romantically as byler: familial parallels. byler, two best friend boys who would usually be referred to as brothers are never even referred to as anything CLOSE to brothers even ONCE in the show. And yet Mike and El have an absolutely fucking Insane number of brother-sister and father-daughter and “paralleled to eachother’s parents in general” parallels. milkvan is not intended by the duffers nor the directors nor anyone else on the ST production team to be taken seriously and especially not as seriously as byler. if it was, they wouldn’t have included the insane number of familial parallels.

I’m not saying that milkvan is incest: I’m saying that there’s no fucking point to those parallels outside of being used to indicate a platonic, non romantic bond from the start.

Freud would have a fucking field day with some of you guys fr. It’s one thing to not be Aware of the milkvan familial parallels- it’s another to be aware of them and still try and claim that the duffers were trying to set up a genuine, meant-to-be-taken-seriously romance/crush between Mike and El.

Some elements of Mike and El’s relationship ARE framed and presented as being romantic on the surface- because they’re kids figuring themselves out AND because how the fuck are the duffers supposed to pull a straightbait if they don’t set the “straight” part of it up first?? It’s literally a show that talks about people who only look at the curtain vs people who look behind it. but the show has to set up that curtain- and the curtain in this case is setting up Mike and El to seem like a romantic couple but putting enough subtext (and blatant text frankly) such as mike’s lack of attraction to girls, the fact that the “pretty” parallels (right down to the soundtrack) indicate that the “pretty” scene was 100% not intended to be romantic, the familial parallels, etc etc etc to indicate that Mike and El aren’t actually romantic/attracted to eachother, esp mike towards El. That’s the “behind” the curtain part.

Like please be fr. We’re supposed to take the “‘she’s my cousin’, ‘will you be like my brother’, wearing my sister’s clothes and makeup, El paralleled to Karen and mike paralleled to Ted, mike paralleled to hopper and brenner, El paralleled to Nancy, milkvan parallled to stancy, ‘we should send her to an asylum,’ lying monologue, can’t say ‘I love you’ to her conscious face without Will in the room even once, etc” ship seriously????

That’s part of why I’m so big on gay Mike too: because if Mike was genuinely ever into El/in love with her, they would be telling a story of falling out of love, mike and El would have some beautiful but heart wrenching rain fight parallel scene. But they don’t. Their rain fight parallel scene is a scene played for gags at the mall (where they’re talking about family/mike’s grandma yet AGAIN and El is paralleled to her bc mike says he was buying a gift for nana but was actually looking for one for El and also Mike has dialogue that parallels Hopper) where “cold as ice” by foreigner plays (a song about shallow, surface-level relationships and commercialism and that was literally said by foreigner to be their most pop-like, surface level, commercialized song) and where El laughs and giggles with Max and isn’t sad at ALL about dumping mike.

Like honestly some of you guys have some serious audacity comparing Will’s pain and heartbreak in scenes like the post rain fight and during rain fight scenes to El’s pain/scenes like the mall. Does El suffer in her relationship with Mike? Absolutely. But even El herself says that Mike is her first boyfriend and what she’s consistently MORE upset about is the lying. Because mike’s always said that “friends don’t lie” so mike lying to her = not friends & she doesn’t want to lose him as a friend. I just really think it’s actually absurd to compare (compare in a way that claims they’re equal) Will’s scenes and heartbreak especially in s3 to El’s scenes regarding Mike. Will was fucking sobbing in the dark and the rain and traumatized and using a baseball bat (representative of his homophobic father) to destroy his safe place after a fight with Mike, whereas after El’s paralleled fight with Mike, she was giggling with max and eating icecream in bright sunlight. will talked about how he thought they were going to stay in mike’s basement/be together forever and then calling himself stupid for it. El was talking about how Mike is just her “first boyfriend.”

[wontbyers]

i mean, on one hand i agree with people saying there’s no need for discourse on gay mike vs bi mike because byler is going to be endgame either way so we don’t technically need an answer to that question, but on the other hand--what, we’re not allowed to care about mike wheeler as an individual, part of which is his sexuality and his arc of accepting himself for that identity?

while we share some experiences, there is a difference in the experience of being a gay person or a bisexual person, and there’s nothing wrong with people hoping that the story will delve into/address mike’s identity, both as it relates to his relationships with el and will (two of the main/most-focused-on relationships in the show!) and regardless of them, because mike does have an orientation no matter who he dates, and doesn’t he deserve to be known and understood the same way we’ve been granted for will and robin?

of course people shouldn’t look or speak down on others who have a different interpretation, no matter how obvious/inarguable you think yours is, but there’s nothing wrong with people discussing and presenting the evidence of their side. whether the show ends up confirming one or another or leaving it up to interpretation, it’s still never going to be a waste of time to talk about, or something that “doesn’t matter.”

it matters for mike. whether the show gives us that or not for him as a character, he as a person would still need to address that in his own life? and then, even if the answer ends up being “i’m not quite sure what my sexuality is” or “it’s fluid” or “i don’t want a label” that’s still going to be the result of mike’s internal analysis of his feelings.

so that’s still part of the very same debate about his sexuality--there is no being outside of it as long as you believe mike loves will, because you agree he is not straight, so your opinion that he'll stay unlabeled is just the 3rd possible option for the outcome of the story (confirmed gay, confirmed bi, neither being confirmed), and not actually staying neutral of the gay vs bi discourse you believe you’re above.

[conflictofthemind]

I love the post that took the rounds again a week or two back discussing how much more "being gay" and internalized homophobia is a theme for Will than it is for Mike. It's things like this that make me such a neutral party on the "gay vs bi" debate.

I'll try to word it in a way that makes sense. My real opinion is that Mike's arc with sexuality is a lot more symbolic than it is material. That post does go into a lot of it. For Will, his sexuality is directly brought up by both friends and strangers, and he must ask questions like "will my family disown me for liking another boy" and other things that are basically only about being gay.

For Mike, his arc is wrapped in metaphor - understandably, since he is less visible and his feelings are meant to be a plot twist. But I think even as it's revealed, it will be written differently than Will.

Its like, "how do we explain sexuality in a way that is understandable to every viewer" (Mike) versus "how do we represent a specific experience to the queer community" (Will).

Saying this as a Will fan who also wishes people would understand Will better, I wish people (especially Mike fans who should know better) would understand the scope of Mike's character and how it informs what he does!!

He basically spent the entire last season whisper-screaming for help, but this has still flown everyone heads who still believes his biggest struggles are liking men and not liking El primarily because she is a girl, no deeper reasons here.

Mike's acceptance and/or realization of his sexuality is so wrapped up in other things that are crucial to his character. To the point you can't address one without having the whole house of his personal issues fall apart. It's an arc about personal acceptance - not specifically for liking boys, but for daring to step out of the suburban nuclear family dream, for not rushing to abandon his desires that seem 'childish' to others, knowing that his worth goes past what he can provide. Not feeling inadequate.

His relationship with El not just failing because he is (possibly / probably) unable to reciprocate her attraction but because they are deep down incompatible individuals, beyond sexuality. They don't have much in common. El's power brings out Mike's lack of. Mike is only able to connect with her in situations of danger, when his previously stated mental health crises are triggered, not everyday life.

Disclaimer of course that this is not a hard black and white line, and Will's struggles with his sexuality are also tied into his character flaws. But not in the same magnitude. I also think Mike will face the material reality of his feelings and being gay in the time period, but again, not to the same magnitude as Will's arc emphasizes.

[will80sbyers]

I feel like what Mike feels toward El is some sort of an admiration. He mixed up his feelings for being romantic because El was the first girl he actually talked to, her being a hero also made Mike be attracted to her. I also feel like this pretty much applies to El. Mike was the first person to show her genuine care for the first time. I think she confuses her feelings with romantic love too.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I think too, he had a crush on her when they were little but it's mostly based on idealizing her as a hero and this means he doesn't understand her truly, he likes that she's a hero and thinks she's great, but she doesn't really want to be seen as a hero because she can't be constantly good to the extent that a hero is required to be, because she's human and has so much trauma to deal with!!!

Basically Mike likes heroes and she was a cute girl that liked him back and they liked each other as kids but then growing up things changed, to have a serious relationship with someone you need more than what they have... and El is exactly in the same situation, she is not in love with Mike... She relied on him for a sense of safety and familiarity

they both are confused because they are just so little, it's normal!! They are still kids!

I think Mike was really convinced he could love her romantically too and he has this strong need to protect her how he can, and especially after Will's speech he convinced himself that he could make it work between them again, I don't think he lied about anything, he thinks all that but he doesn't know what true romantic love is and that what he's feeling isn't it

It's literally the Laurie - Jo situation from little women... Laurie did have love for Jo but the love he has for Amy is "different" because the love for her is mature love not puppy/childhood love

Mike has childhood love for El and he's scared of letting go of the relationship because they didn't exactly start from friendship before dating, so he's not sure if they can get there without them dating... Obviously he's wrong but he's still scared of losing her completely and that blocks him from understanding what would be better for both of them

And he's scared of El not needing him anymore also because he's scared that she will leave his life completely if she doesn't need him anymore... he does love her even if it's not romantic and they don't work in a relationship outside of the physical side of it, there is love there but they are just not compatible as people in a romantic way

For how I see things, the writers wouldn't have made them like that if it was only that he can't love her because he's not attracted to her, in my opinion that seems unnecessary, they showed us that they don't have that type of understanding that comes with being in a relationship that works emotionally for a reason

They lack the deep understanding of the other person and they don't feel safe to be open and communicate their fears without thinking that if they do the other person is gonna find them "not cool enough" to date etc and they are locked in the roles of "boyfriend & girlfriend" instead of being just Mike and El

Mike and El just have too many problems as a couple and I really think things have changed between season 3 and 4 and they don't even have the physical romantic chemistry anymore... because that was tied to the emotional connection, and they don't have the emotional connection needed as we understood from season 4 in particular!

And guess what... Mike has all of the things that will make their relationship work... with Will!

But you know, it must be just a coincidence... 😂

[butterflysonnets]

yes i'm rooting for m*leven breakup because byler is neat but mostly? i'm rooting for m*leven breakup for the sake of el and mike.

to me, their romance was always a puppy love born out of a combination of social pressures, naïve curiosity, and a lack of true understanding regarding intimacy and romantic love and what it really is. it was real in that they do truly, deeply care about each other and they are close friends, maybe even shared an attraction, but a maturing romance is so much more than that. they've grown up and out of being boyfriend/girlfriend, and that's okay! i think television/film needs to show more often that most of us don't have definite "soulmates" or first childhood loves that we spend our whole lives with. it doesn't mean these relationships meant nothing and didn't impact us, it just means they've run their course and that something else is in the cards, and this is part of life!

i've always felt el was at her best and most confident self when broken up with mike, discovering who she was and what she liked alongside another girl her age instead of just relying on mike for mentorship on how to live in the real world. she deserves more of an opportunity to find herself, her autonomy, and her independence, and to love who she is, and she's made it clear she's felt insecure in the relationship with mike because she isn't being loved and understood the way she wants, needs, and deserves from someone who is her partner.

also, it's okay if mike doesn't love her in "the way he should". he is not obligated to love her romantically and stay in a relationship with her just because she's a girl, because she "needed someone", or because he cares about her a lot. he shouldn't be pressured into a romance if it's not truly coming from his heart. he deserves freedom to find out and honour who he is, too, instead of just staying in his non-functional first relationship — one he got into as a child, essentially — and defining himself that way because it's what's expected when a boy and a girl are close. he loves her in some way, yes, but it's okay if he doesn't feel comfortable or secure being her boyfriend anymore, for whatever reason that is. he's felt insecure too, and that's valid and it matters.

they are their own people and are steadily growing and changing every day. they need time to figure out who those people are, and it's become clear (at least in my opinion) that those people aren't meant to be a couple at this stage.

they deserve freedom. they deserve to grow up and be authentic to themselves and not feel like they need to lie for the sake of a relationship. they deserve to move on from this version of their relationship that isn't making them happy and rekindle the best part of their bond: their strong, beautiful friendship. they don't have to be a couple if it doesn't make them stronger and better and happier people.

i think it would be healthy and wonderful for a show, especially one consumed frequently by young adults, to show a relationship starting, progressing, and ending on good terms in this way. sometimes things don't work out, and that is okay.

[gayofthefae]

Just remembered Mike's lack of investment in that video game princess.

It was played at the time as Will is gay and Mike is taken...but it isn't cheating to think an animated character is hot. The concept of "sex sells" doesn't stop working because you're hung up on a girl. It only stops if you don't want what they're "selling".

It isn't cheating to like the girl in the video game. And again, like with Lucas's accusation in 1x03 of liking El, he doesn't defend himself like it is one. He just seems passively disinterested or confused. He isn't rejecting it, he just honestly doesn't care.

And as we've covered before, this is a case of everyone else liking someone outside their relationship and it being totally normal! If Nancy can have a Tom Cruise poster on her wall AND a photo of her and Jonathan, it's fine to like a video game character.

They framed it as Will is gay and Mike is taken. The whole season, that's why Dustin and Lucas were paired off. But that wasn't it, was it? It wasn't about being attracted to the same girl. It was about being attracted to girls.

Dustin even has a line watching her at recess in 2x01 about how she's the perfect girl and anyone would like her because she's so cool. Only Mike and Will ever contest this. "Girls don't play videogames". "You've only known her a day".

It was about liking girls.

[campbyler]

i'm wondering if your miscommunication in this fic is based upon a theory for byler's miscommunication in the show itself? i.e. mike understood will in the van and was therefore gutted when will told him 'youre the heart' in the pizzeria etc (seemingly telling mike to say i love you to el).

i'm trying to piece together things but i've forgotten if will has ever mentioned why their relationship went tits up before. they both are not on the same page at all regarding what happened in the past, but as of this chap... mike now knows how he feels AND will! its really interesting that the hesitance is based around them both thinking that they put themselves out there once and got shot down (or so i gather so far). which means something had to have happened in the past where a third party was involved and made things unclear? because their actions currently strongly suggest mutual attraction like mike said in 10.2

so im wondering if you were inspired by the show in this way, if indeed you DO believe that mike understood will's confession of feelings fully in the van? :)

i would say that it’s not necessarily inspired by that particular interpretation of the van scene, but the miscommunication trope in general is absolutely inspired by the show! mike and will are canonically incredibly passionate characters — that passion often leads to emotional outbursts, and they’re passionate about each other and their friendship, hence why they fight a lot lol. because they have trouble pausing and giving each other the space they need to communicate. when they do manage that, they’re besties for the resties 🤎 which is what we are trying to capture in acswy!

though i will say that acswy is the result of what would happen if they didn’t give each other the time to explain themselves and talk their feelings through 😗 plus obviously with it being a modern au, they’re in different circumstances than they are in the show, so their experiences have shaped them differently. i understand the ooc allegations about acswy, but i’m not really bothered by them because i do think we have done a good job of staying true to how mike and will would react if they grew up Now and had the influences they had. for example, will is for sure sassy on the show — he’s kind to his core, and never genuinely mean on purpose, but the sass is There. i think if he grew up with max as his closest friend versus mike, lucas, and dustin, she’d bring that side out of him more than it is present in the show. max is kind and never genuinely mean either, but she hides it as a defense mechanism, and will would probably be influenced the same way. it’s the same concept where, given the circumstances mike and will are in leading up to and during acswy, the miscommunication of it all has been exacerbated by those elements. and miscommunication is Theeee byler bread and butter.

neither will or mike have mentioned why their relationship is the way that it is — that will be revealed at some point in these final few chapters, but i won’t say when for spoiler reasons of course 😇 i will reiterate what we have been saying since ch01 though: mike and will are Both unreliable narrators. neither of them have all of the info and are just going off of what they perceive to be true. that doesn’t make either one of them right or wrong — they can Both be right based on their interpretations of their situation — but it does mean they lack perspective that is necessary for them to move forward. tee and also hee.

all of that rambling done, i personally do not think that mike understood will’s confession in the van, but support anyone who does interpret it that way!! i’d have to ask suni what her thoughts are on it so we might edit later with her thoughts!!

[lit3rally-m1ke-whlr]

guys I accidentally deleted the essay I wrote in my drafts bc I’m an idiot (I’m crying) so I’m just gonna summarize in less words bc whatever I’m not typing several more paragraphs on this. Anyway I just had to say that I feel like there’s an ableism problem in the Stranger Things fandom. Either that or this fandom just doesn’t like when characters show obvious neurodivergent traits. We see this with El being either infantilized or deemed annoying by fans when she’s clearly developmentally impaired and autistic because she struggles with understanding social cues and just wants to be normal and fit in like everyone else. She was raised in a lab, obviously she’s going to be immature and not have a strong handle on her emotional responses to things, and you don’t have to like her but it kinda sucks that she’s being hated for these things when I can relate to her so much. We also see this with Mike, and I feel like the people calling him the worst character are forgetting he’s literally just a teenage boy dealing with trauma. Like it’s as if they were never a teenager before because trust me I was just like Mike at that age if not worse. I’ll admit I used to hate him too but maturing is realizing the reasons people dislike Mike can easily be explained by either internalized homophobia or neurodivergence. He’s a bad friend? It’s because he’s trying so hard to appear straight and struggles to balance his relationships in a healthy manner, and he often speaks before thinking about how what he’s saying comes across to others, which is something many autistics/ people with ADHD do, not because we mean to hurt others but we can often be blunt or brutally honest and come across as rude (or even just lash out when we feel attacked or hurt as a way to defend ourselves but it often comes out harsher than we want it to) in my experience. He’s a bad boyfriend? He’s actually not and even then it’s because he’s gay and not in love with El but just doesn’t want to lose her. Besides he doesn’t have a great model for what a loving relationship looks like because of his parents so he may not be able to differentiate between romantic and platonic love and stays in a relationship that he’s clearly not happy in because of societal pressure to appear straight and it would be suspicious (in his mind) if they broke up because a) El literally is the coolest girl on the planet, how could he not love her and b) he loses his cover and people might start to notice and question his lack of attraction to girls. But not only that, he clearly struggles with describing and expressing his emotions or recognizing those of others (aka alexythemia) which is common in autistic people. So if he didn’t notice El’s obvious discomfort at the skating rink that’s probably why, and it’s also why he couldn’t tell her he loved her (bc it was a lie but I digress).

But perhaps the best example and the reason I decided to make this rant post is Robin’s character in s4. I remember seeing so many people saying that once the writers decided to make her lesbian they realized they didn’t know what to do with her character, some even going as far as to say they made her ditzy and stripped her of her coolness, which basically proves my point about y’all (as in the fandom in general) not liking ND people because god forbid we unmask around you, it’s no wonder so many of us feel afraid to be our true selves in front of other people. It’s almost as if she was hiding behind a persona to seem more normal and not draw unwanted attention to herself because she’s a lesbian, and once she came out to Steve and was accepted she… didn’t have to do that anymore? She felt more comfortable and safe around him to show her true personality? I don’t know but there’s something off about the way people are acting like she’s suddenly dumb or just there for comedic effect in s4 when she’s literally been so useful like she’s the one who realized music could save victims from being possessed by vecna. She’s literally the same except now she’s out to someone and she gets nervous when it comes to girls she likes, big fucking deal. Not only is this mischaracterization ludicrous and flat out wrong but it’s quite upsetting to see as someone who can relate to Robin in season 4 and is also autistic. Yes, not everyone with autism is like that but some are and to say she’s no longer cool because of it just enforces the perception of autistics as weird and unlikeable just for simply being themselves and makes us feel like we can only be liked or taken seriously if we keep the mask on.

look at me I said I would keep it brief this time but I still ended up writing an entire wall of text on this anyway lol thanks for coming to my Ted talk ig

[despapillon]

When it comes to awareness, I do think that the s3 finale Melvin kiss led to Mike’s realization. I think throughout all of s4 he was aware of his lack of attraction towards El and during the monologue he wasn’t confused about his feelings for her and just simply lied aware of it all. Mike is sort of stuck, he is scared of losing El and probably many other things, so he stays with her and tries to be a good boyfriend while trying to not lie to her too much. But it’s clear he is doing the bare minimum and wants out deep down.

To me I just think they are focusing each season on him figuring out more and more and not just doing repeats or whatever.

S1 - Mike spends time with El away from Will and the relationship develops

S2 - Mike spends time with Will away from El and the relationship develops

S3 - Mike is with El and at the end has his realization he doesn’t like her the way he should

His behavior doesn’t point to him being unaware and that carrying over into S5 I mean come on.

It’s only fitting to me S4 is Mike, struggling with his knowledge, and that it is a repeat of S3 but with Willel swapped, where he has a realization regarding Will this time. And yeah I don’t view Mike as totally clueless about his feelings for Will, just in denial and repression

In my opinion just like El saying ily and kissing him led him to find out he doesn’t love her, I feel the van scene did that in regards to Will. I yet have no idea exactly what, but I know he realized *something* important there, and I suspect that is that he loves Will. I’m not saying he immediately was sure of it that instant but he probably wasn’t purely admiring the painting when Will turned around, just looking at it and trying to sort out how all things Will said made him feel. Mike didn’t notice Will crying right next to him because he was busy thinking, his head was too full. He glances at Will at one point but that doesn’t change the fact he must be zoned out. I’m still unsure if Mike clocked something was off with Will or he was too focused on his gay panic. Literally Vecna’s thoughts are easier for me to figure out than S3-4 Mike’s. Give us his POV ffs.

S5 is going to be Mike now knowing all the basics, the culmination, and having to deal with that, deal with his lie, Will’s lie. He has to choose either live a lie or be honest with himself and be with the person he loves. Mike needs to know he is not just a random nerd, he’s more than that. Will needs to know he has to stop being so self-sacrificing because it has the capacity to hurt not only himself but the very people he wants to help by sacrificing himself and that he needs to do something for himself for once, quit being a doormat as rude as that sounds.

[spicybylerpolls]

All of the teenage relationships are sexualised from the get-go. Stancy's introduction was all about the trope where bad boy Steve just wants to try getting good girl Nancy into bed. Jancy is also immediately sexualised when Jonathan takes the spicy photos of Nancy. And Steve and Robin make booby jokes before Vickie is even introduced. Meanwhile for Stobin, we only really got Steve thinking that he and Robin would be a cute couple but no sexual innuendos whatsoever, hinting that the relationship will not happen because there is no sexual attraction there.

It is initially a bit different for Mileven/Lumax/Byler because they are actually kids at the start of the show. But Season 3 makes such a big fuss about them not being kids anymore and it is coincidentally also the time some of the characters start to make innuendos themselves. Which also means that who they liked as kids is not necessarily who they are eventually attracted to as teenagers.

In comparison to the other teenage relationships, Mileven seems to be a relationship free of any sexual implications. In Season 3 Hopper wants the door certainly not open because he is afraid of them kissing - however, Mike and El never overtly express a desire for sex, neither with each other nor for other people. Milevens like to say "Oh, this means that Mike and El only have eyes for each other" although the sexual implications are completely absent from their relationship.

Of course you could argue that the characters may be demi/ace, but I think especially in Mike's case it is made clear that he is not acespec but a repressed queer (with the Season 4 Episode 1 montage as biggest proof). Some people also insisted (and still insist) that Will is ace too because they are subconsciously so afraid to see any sort of queer attraction on screen. (As a person on the acespec myself, I really long for the day where asexuality is finally done justice on screen. But Stranger Things is clearly a show where they actively contrast lack of sexual attraction and actual sexual attraction with each other. Unfortunately, 99% of media does not include intentionally-accurate representation of asexuality, so right now Stranger Things is not under the obligation to be the show that is suddenly an exception)

This is all so true! People try to argue that Mike and El "making out all the time" is evidence that they have interest in sexual exploration, but A) the show very clearly draws our attention to the fact that he takes his hands off her when they're making out, B) Mike doesn't express sexual interest in the Phoebe Cates, the hot girl of the day, like his friends, C) the show draws our attention to how unnatural it is by having Hopper comment on it, and D) this doesn't progress or increase in any way. In fact, it decreases. In S4, they have one fairly awkward kiss and never show any signs of desire for each other. Instead, the emphasis is on Mike not being able to say ILY to her.

For a ship that's allegedly the main ship, this is all pretty unusual. When was the last time you saw a ship with teenage characters who "only have eyes for each other" yet never show even the slightest sign that they want to explore the physical side of things, even if only 2nd base? It's like Mike got to 1st base and immediately wanted to abort mission and backtrack and never do anything straight again.

Some Milkvans will say it's because Mike is a gentleman, but... come on. Lucas is a gentleman with Max, and the show goes out of its way to emphasize his sexual desire multiple times. Dustin and his girlfriend aren't even in the same state, and she's a devout Mormon, and still there's no doubt that Dustin would round all the bases multiple times in a heartbeat if he got the chance.

Meanwhile, everything between Mike and El looks like a weird, unnatural performance. And they don't even kiss in the desert!

Especially considering the fact that Mike and Will, who are allegedly just platonic friends, do show signs of physical desire. This is what they're like JUST touching arms ever so slightly. Get a room.

[aemiron-main-backup]

the st soundtrack choices and the way that they’re edited and incorporated are fucking genius seriously you guys it ties into the narrative and queerness and other themes so well and also if you enjoy my gay mike analysis you’re def gonna want to read this imo

if i ever start talking about the ST song choices and their relationship to songs/song choices regarding songs that are seemingly pro-protest and anti-conformity but are actually still safe enough to still enforce the norm and have  been ACTIVELY USED by conservative politicians to give the appearance of counterculture and rebellion while still upholding and enforcing the norm while giving their supporters the illusion of rebellion and freedom, and how oppressors like to frame themselves as the underdogs and how not only do oppressors/rightwingers want to squash counterculture music and expression but also will actively steal and twist it to make it reinforce the norm and fit their agenda, i Will Not Stop talking about it, like once that can of worms is opened it is uncloseable sorry. 

yes i am staring DIRECTLY at “raise a little hell” being used for steve’s party which is tied to conformity and seems like rebellion but actually isn’t rebellion (like how jonathan talks about how nancy is just a suburban girl who thinks she’s rebelling but is actually just doing the same thing as other suburban girls) 

yes i am staring DIRECTLY at ‘rock you like a hurricane’ and ‘shout at the devil’ and ‘the four horsemen’ and billy, somebody who sees himself as counterculture and rock and roll but in reality is using rock and roll to reinforce dated, bigoted beliefs and promote hatred. and how all of those songs, despite all being rock songs, occupy different subcultures and tie into politics and culture in very different ways. 

like they didn’t do this accidentally, this pattern of songs is constant and it’s backed up by scenes like what i mentioned with steve and jonathan and nancy and conformity. and thats why i have a LOT TO SAY ABOUT THE SONG CHOICES IN S4 RELATIVE TO S4′S THEMES OF ANTI CONFORMITY AND HOW WE HAVE TO LOOK PAST THE SURFACE AND JUST ARGHHHHH 

like i remember seeing a genius quote about it in an article awhile back (not abt st specifically but about the phenomena of how conservatives and those who want to maintain the norm use rock and roll and previously counter-culture efforts in order to twist it and enforce the norm): 

“rock n roll isn’t dead, rock n roll is alive and wants tax cuts for the rich”

it’s not just limited to rock and roll though, pop songs that are deemed to be nostalgic and counterculture are used in that way too (even if they actually ARE counterculture and QUEER TOO, they get twisted), specifically Rise Up by Parachute Club comes to mind, which isn’t in st, but similar songs ARE and thats why im so excited to analyze them, because Rise Up was thought to be a queer anthem but was used WITHOUT PERMISSION as the theme for the United Alternative convention (a canadian rightwing convention) and im certain that there’s other pop and rock songs in ST that have similar things that have happened to them, in addition to the ones that i’ve already mentioned 

imo this ties into why we don’t HEAR any really harsh metal etc. it’s not an accident. there’s a REASON why metal doesn’t play for eddie until his scene at the end and also why they chose master of puppets specifically and how rock music is literally constantly used as a puppet to reinforce the norm under the guise of rebellion and how EDDIE STILL DIED DESPITE HIS REBELLION and how master of puppets is also about drug use and how people think that they’re in control/the master but they’re actually the puppet of their addiction just like how people often think that they’re being counterculture and progressive but they’re actually reinforcing the norm (see: billy) 

and reason this ties into why we hear a KISS song during the hellfire game instead of a dio song or an iron maiden song or any of the more harsh metal songs that eddie is CLEARLY A FAN OF, ones that LITERALLY HAVE FUCKING SONGS ABOUT WIZARDS AND DND RELATED THINGS but they didnt use that but they DID use ‘detroit rock city’ but they CUT THE SUBSTANCE OUT OF IT JUST LIKE HOW CONSERVATIVES CUT THE SUBSTANCE AND COUNTERCULTURE OUT OF SONGS WHEN THEY TWIST THEM FOR THEIR OWN NARRATIVE, because they cut out the intro of detroit rock city where a radio broadcast plays talking about a boy in a car crash AND they cut out the car crash at the end. and this ties into what im saying about cutting the substance out of it because without the context, the song just seems like it’s about rock and roll and having a fun time and a guy recklessly driving to a concert.

but WITH the context, we learn that the guy that the song is talking about, the one driving recklessly to a concert, IS THE ONE WHO THE RADIO BROADCAST IS TALKING ABOUT, THE ONE WHO DIED. because we hear the CRASH AT THE END. but the show didn’t include the radio broadcast OR the crash!! because THEY LITERALLY REMOVED THE DANGER and the SUBSTANCE OF THE SONG THEY REMOVED THE FULL CONTEXT, JUST LIKE THE CONSERVATIVES, THE SHOW USED IT TO SUPPORT THEIR OWN NARRATIVE AND NOT SHOW US THE FULL PICTURE/NOT MAKE US AWARE OF THE DANEGR (THE DANGER BEING A.) HOMOPHOBIA AND CONFORMITY BUT ALSO B.) THE LITERAL DANGER OF VECNA AND HOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DND GAME MIRRORS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WITH HENRY/VECNA BUT HOW WE DONT REALIZE IT BECAUSE IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A GAME. and THAT’S just like how the GA sees dnd and the dnd arc in s4 as being JUST about the game, as JUST hearing ‘detroit rock city’ without the context and thinking it’s just about a guy going to a concert, not realizing that it’s about his DEATH AS A RESULT OF THAT CONCERT, just like how the dnd and hellfire arc in s4 it was NEVER just about dnd, it’s about queerness and the aids crisis and homophobia too. 

Just like how the satanic panic was NEVER JUST ABOUT DND but the media and conservatives manipulated the rhetoric to make it seem like they were just scared of the game. It was about hating outcasts, upholding the norm, homophobia, and all forms of bigotry.

It was about control and maintaining the norm, anti-conformity.  and this lack of use of actual metal music up until master of puppets also ties into how rock music and metal specifically was demonized in the satanic panic and how while people could see eddie as being counterculture and would demonize metal music, they never actually take the time to get to know him just like how they never actually take the time to listen to metal music. because just like how if they took the time to get to know eddie, they’d realize he isn’t evil, the same applies with metal music. and this sounds like im pulling stuff out of my ass but this is why eddie mentions ozzy osbourne to steve and that’s why steve narratively doesnt know who ozzy osbourne is.

 it’s not just a random scene, the purpose of this scene is to tie “not getting to know/listen to eddie” to “not getting to know/listen to metal”- why? because OZZY OSBOURNE AND BLACK SABBATH IS LITERALLY KNOWN FOR HAVING VERY POSITIVE MESSAGES ABOUT PEACE AND LOVE AND KINDNESS AND ANTI-WAR IN THEIR SONGS. BUT PEOPLE CAN’T SEE PAST THE HARSH METAL OF IT TO ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. JUST LIKE HOW THEY CAN’T SEE PAST EDDIE’S APPEARANCE AND GET TO KNOW HIM. Steve doesn’t *know* who ozzy osbourne is, just like he doesn’t know eddie, just like how people don’t know metal music, just like how people make baseless assumptions about both of them. 

THIS IS ALSO WHY WE SEE STEVE BITING A  BAT, JUST LIKE EDDIE MENTIONS OZZY DOING: BECAUSE STEVE AND OZZY ARENT THAT DIFFERENT, BLACK SABBATH AND THE BEATLES ARENT THAT DIFFERENT, MUCH OF THE CORE MESSAGE IS THE SAME, MESSAGES OF LOVE AND PEACE AND ANTI WAR.This is why we don’t hear ‘real’ metal music in s4 until the end, with master of puppets, because people aren’t seeing eddie for who he is, people, the audience, literally aren’t hearing the music until the end, people don’t see eddie for what he is (a good person and a hero) until he is dead.

Just like how people NOW see the fact that black sabbath is full of good messaging, but didn’t see it at the time (which also ties into how black sabbath HAS been used in present-day to reinforce the norm). And all of this ties into ‘shout at the devil’ too, and how Billy and so many people at the party but esp Billy and his character, don’t realize what the song is actually about (motley crue talking about how ‘hey i mean technically this supports you christian folk, because it’s shout AT the devil, not WITH the devil,’  but how that’s rooted in sarcasm because the rightwing christians don’t realize that THEY are the devil, just like Lucas’ ‘normal’s just a raging psychopath’ quote, they don’t realize that their ‘normalcy’ IS the hatred) and then ALSO how ‘shout at the devil’ has been repurposed by nostalgic rightwingers trying to reinforce the norm while thinking that they’re rebelling (ie, again, those rightwingers think that they’re the victims, that they’re shouting at the devil, not realizing that they ARE the devil.) 

Just like how black sabbath’s messaging of peace and love but also taking action and even violence against hatred WAS counterculture, because the current culture is hatred, so love is the real counterculture. Just like how I’ve talked about before, having a happy ending for the queer characters is the most counter-culture thing that the show could do, more counter culture and shocking than any violent bury your gays death could possibly ever be, because those circumstances are the NORM, queer success and joy and happiness is the real counterculture. 

and how we DID hear metal music with Billy in previous seasons, with him listening to Metallica, but how that’s tied to the fact that BILLY is the one not hearing the music, ignoring the counterculture reality of the lyrics and instead continuing to conform with misogyny and racism and homophobia and heternormativity, he sees hatred as counterculture which is not true because the current norm and culture is rooted around hatred and bigotry. 

 and then how THAT and the satanic panic ties into a queer allegory and the aids crisis panic and how the music choices circle back to that and how the oppressors tend to see themselves as the oppressed and position themselves as victims (cough Jason cough and cough catholic victim complex cough and the people pushing the satanic panic acting as if they were the ones being being targeted when in reality they were the ones targeting others and how during the aids crisis, homophobes etc saw themselves as the victim of ‘the predatory gays trying to give them aids’ instead of seeing the aids victims as the victims and how it ALL TIES TOGETHER and how VECNA SEES HIMSELF AS THE VICTIM WHEN HE’S THE OPPRESSOR HE SEES HIMSELF AS SAVING PEOPLE AND HAVING BEEN VICTIMIZED WHEN HE IS THE ONE VICTIMIZING PEOPLE!!!!!

AND HOW ALL OF THESE BIG THEMES TIE INTO THE CYCLE OF ABUSE IN A BIG WAY BUT ALSO IN A MORE PERSONALIZED AND SMALLER SCALE WAY WITH ABUSERS SEEING THEMSELVES SOLELY AS VICTIMS AND CONTINUING TO PERPETUATE THAT ABUSE. EVEN LONNIE POSITIONS HIMSELF AS THE VICTIM IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY WHEN IT COMES TO WILL’S DEATH, WANTING TO COLLECT MONEY AS ONE OF THE ‘VICTIMS’ OF THE QUARRY’S NEGLECT/WILL’S DEATH. MEANWHILE, LONNIE WAS THE ABUSER TO WILL, LONNIE WAS THE ONE WHO HURT WILL. BUT HE POSITIONS HIMSELF AS A VICTIM, JUST LIKE HE DOES WITH JOYCE AND JONATHAN, WHEN HE’S TALKING TO JONATHAN IN S1, HE TALKS ABOUT “maybe i’m not the bad guy,” and how JOYCE is the problem. Abusers and oppressors positioning themselves as victims is a constant theme in ST and it only makes sense that it would be reflected in the music, which is why i DONT think that i’m looking too far into it with this writeup!! 

and yes this also ties into the s3 trailer baba o riley remix LIKE GOD I NEED TO WORK ON MY ST MUSIC ANALYSIS I HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY and how theres a reason why they use certain songs from the 70s vs the 80s and themes of nostalgia but also of using that nostalgia to reinforce the norm of heteronormative, conservative and hateful beliefs. 

and i also have a LOT TO SAY ABOUT THE SONG CHOICES FOR WILL AND JONATHAN AND THOSE SONGS BEING USED IN A GENUINELY COUNTERCULTURE WAY WITH WILL BEING GAY AND JONATHAN BEING AN OUTCAST AND HOW BEING COUNTERCULTURE ISNT ABOUT WHAT YOU LISTEN TO BUT ABOUT WHO YOU ARE AND HOW EVEN THOUGH SHOULD I STAY OR SHOULD I GO IS ONE OF THOSE SONGS THAT  *HAS* BEEN USED BY THE RIGHTWING TO REINFORCE THE NORM, THE *WAY* THAT ITS USED AND PRESENTED IN ST AND IS LITERALLY ONLY EVER USED IN SITUATIONS WHERE THE CHARACTERS CAN HEAR THE SONG VERSUS OTHER SONGS LIKE ‘ROCK ME LIKE A HURRICANE’ THAT ARE USED IN A WAY THAT CHARACTERS CANT HEAR THEM AND SO ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT THE SONG IS SO MUCH AS IT IS THE ACTIONS TIED TO IT AND HOW ITS BEING USED AND HOW THAT LITERALLY APPLIES TO HOW THE SHOW USES IT BUT ALSO  HOW IT GETS USED IRL AND HOW EVEN SONGS THAT ARE GENUINELY COUNTERCULTURE GET STOLEN AND USED TO REINFORCE THE NORM AND HOW SONGS THAT WERENT INTENDED TO BE COUNTERCULTURE CAN BECOME COUNTERCULTURE AND AND AND 

JUST ARGHHH I HAVE SO MANY THOUGHTS AND ALSO HOW WE HAVE SONGS *ABOUT* ROCK AND ROLL BUT ARE LACKING IN ACTUALLY GETTING TO HEAR THOSE ROCK AND ROLL SONGS THEMSELVES

Regarding songs that are about rock and roll but not actually really rock and roll songs, I am staring DIRECTLY at you, ‘rock and roll hoochie koo’ and ‘rock me amadeus’ in s4 and even ‘detroit rock city’ which sure its a rock song but its also ABOUT ROCK, we get more songs ABOUT ROCK than we do ROCK SONGS and even with detroit rock city, like i said, they REMOVE THE CONTEXT, and it’s very interesting to me, especially with the rock song, ‘play with me’ by extreme that plays when mike is looking for dnd players and how that ties into my gay mike analysis- sorry not sorry- and into the themes of conformity for mike but explicitly how those themes tie into him being GAY, not just that he’s affected by conformity, because he IS affected by it in multiple ways outside of his sexuality, but it’s also explicitly tied TO him being gay and how just like the dnd arc was never just about dnd/games and is also about homophobia and queerness AND how games/dnd has been tied to mike and will’s sexualities and relationships, the song ‘play with me’ is not just about games/mike trying to find people to play games with, it’s also about mike trying to figure out his sexuality/who he wants to be with/’play’ with (be in a relationship with/who he’s attracted to.

 and that’s why we get so much ‘mike doesn’t like women’ imagery in those scenes but ALSO more ‘mike DOES like men’ imagery in those scenes and in the van scene with ‘boy’ behind his head whereas in previous seasons the imagery was more focused on ‘mike doesn’t like women’ and how a lot of his attraction towards men in previous seasons was directed towards Will Specifically rather than acknowledging his attraction to men as whole (ie in S4, he has the word ‘boy’ beside his head instead of the word ‘will’ behind him or something representing Will, whereas in s3, we see things representing Will Specifically rather than boys as a whole, things like the Will the Wise drawing beside Mike’s head when he’s making out with El in the bedroom) but now in s4, mike is coming to terms more with his attraction to men as a whole. 

and how mike may be disgusted with himself about his attraction to men but just like how other people/will’s love for mike specifically makes Will feel better/not like a mistake/helps him get over his internalized homophobia, mike’s love for will specifically is what helps him get over his internalized homophobia regarding his active attraction to men, just like how i said, we saw the imagery shift from “attraction to will specifically vs lack of attraction to girls as a whole (rather than lack of attraction to el specifically)” to “attraction to men as a whole specifically in addition to attraction to will and how his attraction to will helped him come to terms with that attraction to men vs still having that lack of attraction to girls as a whole because he’s already come to his realizations about that in s3″

especially with mike’s obvious crush on eddie and how he’s branching out in attraction to men as a whole outside of will because he’s already realized his lack of attraction to girls but is now figuring out his attraction to men in s4 AND how this STILL ties back into how will/mike’s love for will helped him get over his internalized homophobia AND into the music choices in st, because the songs that play during the mike-eddie cafeteria scene are “i was a teenage werewolf” and “fever,” and how long story short the “Teen Wolf” poster in the video store 100% represents Will, especially with ‘Teen Wolf’ literally having a scene where the character comes out as a werewolf but the other person asks them initially if they’re coming out ‘as a fag’ (and theres a million other parallels to will that i could go into but wont for the sake of the length of this post but WILL go into at another time so just take my word for it rn or go look for yourselves at the movie), and so then,  we have “fever,” a song about infatuation that represents mike’s crush on eddie/his sexuality/attraction to men as a whole, but then also ‘I was a teenage werewolf,” a song that TIES THAT ATTRACTION/ABILITY TO COME TO TERMS WITH HIS SEXUALITY to his FEELINGS FOR WILL. It’s not just his crush on eddie that helps him come to terms with it/admit his sexuality for himself, it’s that his feelings for will help him come to terms with his CRUSH ON EDDIE and with his sexualty, since again, like I said, Mike may be able to apply that internalized homophobia hatred to himself, but he CANNOT APPLY IT TO WILL. 

And how all of THAT is part of WHY mike seems to go back into the closet (in terms of being out to HIMSELF) at rink o mania/in lenora, why we get ‘in the closet at rink o mania,’ because MIKE IS LITERALLY GOING BACK IN THE CLOSET.

because WILL is what makes him feel better about his sexuality, but now that he’s having conflict with will, he’s questioning his sexuality too/his willingness to be out, ESPECIALLY SINCE LIKE I TALKED ABOUT IN ANOTHER POST, HE SEEMS TO THINK THAT WILL TOTALLY HAS A CRUSH ON ANGELA AT RINK O MANIA, SO NOW NOT ONLY IS HE DOUBTING THE IDEA THAT WILL COULD HAVE FEELINGS FOR HIM BUT HES DOUBTING THE IDEA THAT WILL LIKES MEN AT ALL.

AND SO IF MIKES LOVE FOR WILL IS TIED TO HIS ABILITY TO BE OPEN WITH HIMSELF ABOUT HIS SEXUALITY AS A WHOLE, THEN WHEN HE FEELS LIKE HE’S LOSING WILL/IT ISNT REQUITED/HE’S WRONG ABOUT THINKING THAT WILL COULD BE GAY, THEN HE STARTS TO DOUBT HIMSELF AND HIS OWN SEXUALITY TOO AND WHETHER OR NOT HE’S ACTUALLY GAY OR IF THERE’S JUST SOMETHING ELSE ‘WRONG’ WITH HIM/IF HIS LACK OF ATTRACTION TO GIRLS COMES FROM SOMETHING ELSE. 

AND SO MIKE IS LITERALLY GOING BACK INTO THE CLOSET AT RINK O MANIA HES LITERALLY GOING BACK INTO IT DESPITE THE CLOSET DOOR BEING OPEN IN S4 EP1 DESPITE HOW HE SEEMS MORE LIKE HIMSELF AND PLAYS DND IN HAWKINS BUT THEN TOTALLY CHANGES IN LENORA. He’s BACK in the closet at rink o mania, but started closing the door as soon as he saw will/was gay panicking and having doubts. 

And how imo that ties into why we see so much bi imagery at rink o mania, but how I still think that aligns with gay mike and actually plays a key role in backing up what i’ve said here about the connection between mike’s love for will and his ability to get over his internalized homophobia/embrace his attraction to men: because we specifically see WILL in front of the bi imagery more than we do mike: because not only is mike reconsidering his own ability to be out/his own attraction to men, but he’s also reconsidering any suspicions that he may have had about Will being gay, because he seemingly sees Will having a crush on Angela, which i talked about at length in this post, and how like i’ve said before, when you look at the evidence objectively without the context of Will’s sexuality being confirmed, WILL seems like the possibly bi one because his sexuality isn’t nearly as framed around lack of attraction to women as mike’s is- and mike doesn’t have that outside ‘will is gay’ confirmation from noah schnapp/the duffers, so he IS relying on that ‘objective, in-the-show- evidence,’ but actually has even LESS evidence than us for will being gay and not bi, because Mike hasn’t seen things like the conversation between Hopper and Joyce about Lonnie calling Will a fag, he hasn’t seen Will’s pov the way that we have, at rink o mania, he hasn’t seen Will making a painting for him, he didn’t see Will’s reaction at the sauna, there’s so much gay Will imagery that mike HAS NOT SEEN. 

He’s seen the homophobic bullying etc though, so he does still have enough to go off to suspect that will could be gay/into men, but he doesn’t have confirmation, and he DEFINITELY hasnt seen a ton of ‘will explicitly doesn’t like women imagery’ because even we are the audience havent seen very much of that, not nearly as much as we’ve seen for mike, which, mike’s own lack of attraction towards women is what he’s going base his analysis of Will off of, and we know that mike has a LOT of scenes where he’s put into a situation where he feels that lack of attraction, whereas not only does will have many, he has EVEN FEWER that mike actually gets to see (ie, the girl in lenora, mike doesn’t see that)

which, THAT, imo is why we see the bi imagery at rink o mania, when the two of them are fighting and mike is confused about his sexuality and will’s sexuality, but see way more explicitly gay/not interested in women imagery everywhere else in the show. it’s not that they forgot to put the bi imagery in other scenes and instead their hand slipped and they put explicitly gay/lack of attraction to women imagery. it’s that the bi imagery at rink o mania serves a specific purpose in regards to will and mike’s dynamic and sexualities and trying to figure themselves and eachother out. (not that bi people are just confused but that this is the 80s and that will and mike are trying to figure out labels and mike is trying to figure out if will IS bi and mike is trying to figure out if hes going to continue to try and pretend to  have attraction to women/stay in the closet due to the connection between mike’s relationship with will vs mike’s ability to embrace his own sexuality) 

(which, just expanding on that, like i said, mike has seen the homophobia that will’s faced AND mike in s3 feels like he’s seen will having a lack of attraction to girls- the ‘day free of girls’ scene despite the fact that that scene was more about will’s friends ignoring him than it was about will’s attraction to girls, we’re looking at this from mike’s pov- so i think that mike could absolutely have suspicions that will IS gay and that it’s not just random bullying IN ADDITION to his own hopes about his feelings being requited)

It’s like how if Lucas was mike’s “straight” guide (mike going to lucas about girls in s3 constantly and letting lucas take the lead and how lucas also pushes mike towards el when making fun of him in 1), then Will is mike’s gay guide LMAO.  It’s not that Mike is only gay if he can be with will/if will is gay: mike is still gay regardless, but it’s about mike’s ability to accept and embrace that gayness. Especially since if Mike is being internally homophobic to himself and believing in the homophobic stereotypes, then he, in his mike brain, has to also apply that hatred/stereotypes to Will, which is where it becomes difficult for mike and why Will is tied to mike’s ability to embrace his sexuality outside of just his love for will specifically. 

And how while Mike’s love for will is what helps him get over his internalized homophobia, his platonic love for el is what helps him get over his heteronormativity (he experiences BOTH imo because heteronormativity alone does NOT explain his disgust and shame towards HIMSELF during the sauna scene and how he was the one holding the door open etc etc but thats a topic for the full gay mike analysis) because he’s hurting her as a result of it and doesn’t want to hurt her because he DOES love her platonically and care about her!  And so that’s the thing. Mike’s love for Will is tied to his active attraction to men/his internalized homophobia, whereas his platonic love for El/his relationship with El is what’s tied to heteronormativity.

This is also why I don’t believe that Mike has been intentionally using El as a beard all along, because El isn’t narratively connected to the internalized homophobia side of things, she’s connected to the heternormativity side of things. 

and how THAT ties into that fact that gay mike works SO WELL with el and her arc and character and how once el finds out that it was never ABOUT HER as a person, that it’s not that mike doesnt LOVE HER but rather that he’s not attracted to girls AT ALL, she’s going to be HAPPIER than if she found out that mike just fell out of love with her for who she is or something about her/that mike chose Will over her. That’s REALLY one of the big things that makes me a gay mike truther is because if he wasn’t gay, El wouldn’t need to be set up the way that she is as a character, wouldn’t need to be set up in such a specific way with a lack of knowledge about homophobia, wouldn’t need to be set up as a character who’s felt inherently unloveable for who she is, wouldn’t need to be set up as being twins with Will/the writers clearly not just wanting to pit them against eachother, wouldn’t need to be set up in a way where BOTH her and mike don’t understand attraction/romance, because if she was a typical straight girl not raised in a lab, she would have a better/even just a more existent understanding of romance and attraction due to the pressures of heteronormativity that results in girls having to face those topics at a young age, and so then, Mike would be the only one in the couple who doesn’t understand it/is having to figure it out from scratch because he’s gay. But with the way that El’s set up, it’s meant to put them both on equal footing with not understanding attraction/not having a great knowledge of its existence/what it is/how it’s defined and how it feels. 

And sure, they’re kids and of course ANY kids don’t understand attraction perfectly: but a gay kid in the 80s and a girl raised in a lab have less of an understanding of it/experience with it. And absolutely, bi people did NOT have it easy in the 80s, I’m not saying that it was easier for them to understand their feelings, I’m saying that they DID have feelings towards the ‘opposite’ gender, whereas for Mike that attraction to the ‘opposite gender’ it’s a blank slate because it doesn’t exist for him, just like it is for El, because it didn’t exist for her in the lab. 

If mike was anything other than gay, El wouldn’t be need to set up in a way where Mike being gay is the best-case scenario for her relationship with him and her own arcs and themes and having a happy/satisfying conclusion to them. 

So many girls in the 80s who aren’t El, who HAVE been raised with that heteronormativity and understanding of attraction/even if they dont understand, having more of a knowledge of its existence at ALL than el does from a young age would be angry and very likely homophobic if they found out that their boyfriend was gay. But El won’t be. And that way, her relationship with Will isn’t hurt, her relationship with Mike isn’t hurt by him being gay (whereas if he was anything but gay, their relationship would be hurt by him ‘falling out of love’ with her for who she is/something about her, but if he was never in love with her, and isn’t into girls at all, then it’s not about her), that way, El isn’t put into a position of having to choose whether or not to be on the same side as homophobes, who are portrayed consistently as the bad guys in the show. 

(I am NOT saying that El being mad at mike would be homophobic. I AM saying that if she was set up in a different way, she would have to make the CHOICE of being homophobic or not, of what side to be on, but this way, she isn’t put into that position, which aligns more with her narrative and character)

And like we see in the s4 bedroom fight, El is upset about Mike not saying he loves her, but I also think she’s more upset about Mike lying to her. She KNOWS that he doesn’t show that he’s in love, but she wants to see if he can even say it, if he’ll lie about it or not, and I think the REAL hurt comes from him lying about it. 

And so, if Mike is gay, then not only is “mike lying to el about being in love with her” resolved, but “el being hurt by mike not loving her/feeling unloveable for who she is” is resolved, because it was never ABOUT HER. 

And sure, “mike lying to el about being in love with her” could be resolved if mike was bi and just fell out of love with her and then was honest with her about it, but again, that doesn’t align with a.) the cracks in their relationship from the VERY BEGINNING IN S1 and b.)  with a satsifying conclusion for el’s arc, themes, and characters, and with her and mike and will all staying on good terms with eachother. 

Like I’ve been saying: if not el, then who? Then WHAT GIRL if will specifically wasn’t an option bc it’s not just that he wants to be with will? If mike isn’t in love with el/attracted to her but IS still attracted to girls, then WHAT WOULD HE CHANGE ABOUT EL? WHAT GIRL DOES HE WANT? HE’S ALREADY TRIED TO MOLD HER INTO HIS ‘IDEAL’ GIRL FROM S1 TO S3 AND NOT IN AN INTENTIONALLY HARMFUL WAY BUT IN A ‘VERY INFLUENCED BY HETERONORMATIVITY AND TRYING TO MAKE EL MEET THE SAME EXPECTATIONS THAT HE FEELS HE HAS TO MEET’ WAY. BUT THAT STILL WASN’T ENOUGH!!!

Because Mike’s ideal girl DOESNT EXIST. And the closest that we get to it, the scene where Mike initiates the affection, the closest we get to him being attracted to her (even though he isn’t, but it’s the closest scene we get), is when El is a.) dressed more stereotypically masculinely, b.) she looks so similar to will that the guy at the police station literally mistook her for will and c.) she has very little understanding of the world/unique personality/ability to articulate that personality (she does have a unique personality but it isnt SHOWN to mike very much in s1 compared to the other seasons which is the thing).  

The closest that we get to Mike being attracted to El, the scene where HE initiates it for once (even during the makeout/affection scenes in s2, El is the one initiating more, she’s the one holding onto HIS arm, she’s the one holding HIS face while they makeout and just sits there or takes her hands off of him), is a scene where El is the closest that she is to resembling a man. And it’s not just that mike still likes women but prefers masculine women, because even THEN, he’s still not fully attracted to her, he’s still operating around heteronormativity and what he thinks he has to do rather than what he actually wants/is attracted to, because he’s still figuring out what he wants/is attracted to. 

 El is literally his ‘ideal girl/the closest thing to it’ in that scene because she MUST BE the closest thing to an ‘ideal girl’ for him in that scene because it’s the only scene where HE initiates the kiss, its the closest he can get to loving her/being attracted to her, even though he doesn’t/isn’t, it’s the closest that he gets to it. 

 How are all of the issues with mike and el’s relationship explained if Mike was genuinely attracted to her at some point? They’re not. They’re not fully explained or fully resolved, even though parts of them can be explained. If they wanted to make Mike anything other than explicitly gay, it wasn’t necessary to set El up in the way that she’s set up. Not that El’s character revolves around Mike, but rather, that they could have addressed the exact same themes and ideas with her character without needing to set her up in a way that works perfectly with gay mike. 

And how going back to my discussion about counterculture and music, and what is and isn’t counterculture and how people like Billy think that hatred is counterculture when in reality, love and happiness is counter-culture (just like how homophobes and bigots today bitch about how ‘the woke mob is overtaking everything and cishet white conservatives are a minority’), and Mike is starting to embrace counter-culture and anti-conformity in s4 because he’s realizing that love and happiness is the real counter-culture, and beginning to get over his heteronormativity and realize that hatred is the norm and that conformity and the norm sucks and hurts people (whereas in s3 he was trying to embrace conformity and continue to reinforce the norm).

Mike is starting to realize that just like I talked with the music, bigots are using symbols of freedom and love and anti-bigotry to turn themselves into the victims Mike is getting over his internalized homophobia because like I said, he not only can’t apply that homophobic rhetoric to will, but being unable to apply it to will makes it more difficult for him to apply it to himself. 

 People who have enforced heteronormativity and homophobia are acting like they’re the victims of having to deal with queer people rather than the other way around, acting like they’re the victims of the aids crisis rather than queer people, acting like they’re the victims of people like eddie rather than eddie being the victims of people like them. Mike is realizing that society isn’t victimizied by his attraction to men, that it isn’t something bad- that it ISNT BAD because something that hurts something that’s bad (ie mike’s sexuality ‘hurting’ society/heteronormativity) is actually something good. He is realizing that the norm sucks, that the norm is hatred. 

People are also using dnd to push their bigoted narrative, it’s all wrapped into the satanic panic alongside the music which is then tied to queerness and the aids crisis and homophobia. Mike was rejecting dnd/embracing that bigoted narrative to an extent in s3 but now he is starting to go against that narrative and embrace dnd and that ties into him embracing his sexuality like i’ve talked about already in this post. 

Anyway im gonna explain these last few sections and the links between counter culture, conformity, the ST soundtrack choices and gay mike in a different post/in the analysis, but I need to rewatch the show and analyze the music relative to mike in order to really fully make the point about mike and counterculture and conformity and how it ties into gay mike and how it’s all demonstrated by the ST music. 

conclusion: mike wheeler is gay the music is gay the music supports gay mike, the stranger things music team are absolutely genius and the way that the narrative is so interwoven with various topics and how that interweaving is supported by the music choices and the ways in which those music choices are implemented is absolutely fantastic. 

god i need to finish both my music analysis and gay mike analysis.

the st soundtrack choices and the way that they’re edited and incorporated are fucking genius seriously you guys it ties into the narrative and queerness and other themes so well and also if you enjoy my gay mike analysis you’re def gonna want to read this imo

if i ever start talking about the ST song choices and their relationship to songs/song choices regarding songs that are seemingly pro-protest and anti-conformity but are actually still safe enough to still enforce the norm and have  been ACTIVELY USED by conservative politicians to give the appearance of counterculture and rebellion while still upholding and enforcing the norm while giving their supporters the illusion of rebellion and freedom, and how oppressors like to frame themselves as the underdogs and how not only do oppressors/rightwingers want to squash counterculture music and expression but also will actively steal and twist it to make it reinforce the norm and fit their agenda, i Will Not Stop talking about it, like once that can of worms is opened it is uncloseable sorry. 

Keep reading

[chirpsythismorning]

Skam show-runner Julie Andem clocking the fuck out of Mike being queer-coded in s1 of Stranger Things, and then using it as inspiration to queer-code Isak in s3 of Skam can be something so epic.

THIS! THIS is what I'm talking about!

In ST, there are two scenes in s1 (pretty/still pretty) that milkvans use as irrefutable proof that Mike has always had romantic feelings for El, with the primary object in the scene being a mirror.

THIS. MEANS. SOMETHING.

Mirrors in film mean something more often than not, but especially when they are the focus of a scene is when they definitely mean something. And the way they go about it differently in between those two scenes in ST, drastically differently, and considering the subject matter is very very queer coded, is how you really know there is a significance in this case.

And that scene above from Skam proves it.

Because apparently, another filmmaker watched ST, picked up on those odd details surrounding Mike and said shit I'm gonna use that...

Notice how Isak here, a gay teenager who is fully in denial with others and himself, to the point where he makes really homophobic remarks often, gets caught denying a bunch of girls as being attractive in a conversation with his friends. And so now they're questioning him and making him feel on edge bc the focus is on him and his attraction (lack thereof) to girls.

While his friends aren't even implying he is gay in this moment, it's just them genuinely being confused why he doesn't think any of the girls they think are attractive are attractive, you can still see that Isak starts to feel the pressure and so he latches onto the first girl he thinks of, Emma.

Emma just so happens to look like Natalie Portman with her extremely short hair.

Low and behold this very girl enters the room shortly after he says this and so now Isak has to face this and give his friends the impression he is fully interested in this girl, otherwise they would DEFINITELY suspect something is off. And so he goes all out.

He outs himself.

He literally says Don't you look like that boy from Stranger Things, and then follows it up with saying he would only be attracted to her if we're assuming he is attracted to boys, only to quickly backtrack and start to approach her really flirtatiously, then going all out by making out with her.

As this happens, he is kissing her in the bathroom, in front of a mirror...

Now I want to make clear, I am not saying ST was inspired by Skam. I'm pretty sure I did make that clear, it's actually the other way around, which is even more incriminating arguably.

S1 of Stranger Things came out in 2016, whereas s3 of Skam came out the following year in 2017. The hype for ST was so immense, to the point where you had Norwegian teens referencing it in everyday conversation.

The creator of Skam took scenes from ST that framed Mike very peculiarly in s1, and used it as queer-coding for a character that ended up being revealed as gay.

For those that haven't seen Skam Norway... Run. Leap. Drive. Teleport. Do what you have to do and go watch it. It's not available on any streaming, in fact it's only available online through fan-sites outside of where it's based. Conveniently, all 4 seasons with English subs can be found HERE.

Basically this show is amazing and you need to watch it. Some seasons I like more than others. But the gist of it is that every season focuses on a different character from the main group, where they experience some sort of misunderstanding/miscommunication that leads to them being misinformed about certain things, followed by them making mistakes and having doubts, though it tends to end in a way that feels so refreshing compared to what we're used to.

Skam also translates in english to shame, so the idea is that there is an arc surrounding some form of shame every season.

With Isak in particular, he's the focus for s3, though his arc starts to become more clear as early as the end of s1.

Eva, the character in focus for s1, borrows Isak’s phone to call someone, and ends up seeing that there's gay porn in a bunch of his tabs on his browser. Their friend Noora also witnesses this and she ends up being the focus of s2.

Throughout s2, we get even more blatant hints that Isak is gay and in love with his best friend...

So it's established pretty early on throughout the series that Isak is queer and in denial about it, but it isn't until s3 that he himself is able to confront it.

The way they go about this arc, with Isak having unrequited feelings, is exactly how ST would have done it IF Mike hadn't returned Will's feelings.

So if you're looking for more byler proof, go watch this show and see how they don't let Isak pine over his best friend Jonas for more than 2 seasons.

When the story finally puts Isak at the forefront, they give him his own love interest instead of keeping him pining for his friend. It's really pure and amazing and TBH I would have been fine if ST was framed this way, with it being clear from the beginning Isak's feelings were unrequited, and with the other half of the series focusing on him moving on and finding love himself, and also with his best friend and him still being very close.

Although Isak has that queer-coding from the very beginning, with him looking at his friend all fondly, he is still not able to confront any of it. The following season he dates a girl and is a little over the top about it, though we can also see that he is struggling despite not wanting to face it. It isn't until s3 when the story shows us his inner struggle at the forefront, that we see him finally confront it and accept it.

For those that don't know, Skam also loosely inspired the Nick Nelson gay test scene... So we have character that despite showing many signs of being queer, to the point where we know he literally watched gay porn, is still finding himself in a situation where he's taking gay tests 2 years later....

While he might have the knowledge deep down, he was not willing to face it. In fact he was doing everything he could to avoid confronting it.

But then he falls in love and suddenly it's not something he can ignore anymore...

[castlebyersafterdark]

Your post about will wanting mike physically made me wonder if many of the puritan bylers used to be milevens (statistics would suggest yes) who are still struggling to come to terms with what it means for a man to be gay. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding about how boys actually relate to each other in both platonic and romantic contexts. After all, lots of gay media that caters to young teen girls, like heartstopper, is cutesy if not totally sanitised, and if they are basing what byler could be off of what they thought mileven WAS, then it tracks - because mileven was never physical or sexual either. The reasons for this are all to do with mike’s sexuality, but perhaps many people think that mileven WAS real and no longer is, and therefore when mike and will get together it’ll just be another version of that heterosexual romance. 

Ofc this is wrong, not least because mike and el were so young when they were exploring each other even if it was entirely performed rather than genuinely exploratory. but even if mike was exploring a relationship with el for the first time as a 16/17 yr old, it would still manifest differently to one with will because they are both boys. Not to say that love itself or the butterflies you feel are different, but the way that two men will express their love + the fact that mike and will are friends, would obviously change their dynamic. 

Do you think that if mike and el had been shown to check each other out, that people would have a different opinion (not about mike being gay or bi, but about how his and will’s attraction will express itself?) Because you’re right - people do forget that will being gay means he wants to be intimate with men. Is that because they think his attraction is never physically expressed in the show? But then what exactly would that physical attraction look like? Has he not been ogling mike enough for you? Or painting his body in a very intricate ritual of dedication and love? Or is it because Will is just so gosh darn adorable, and they think that someone who has a baby face cannot experience sexual attraction? 

Intriguing premise on multiple fronts!

Re: the former Milevnn scenario - never considered that but at least for some folks in fandom? Maybe! That's an interesting idea, but I do kind of lean towards a lot of the 'puritan' ideas just being a product of today's internet/fandom culture, via this agenda from how gen z seems to have grown up entirely online. And you can't fully blame it on this generation! Those under that mindset didn't inflict it on themselves! (Same vein as "no one is born racist - you are taught to hate"). It's a reaction to a deeper conversation of social media and surveillance culture and this pervasive mindset of thought-crime, etc. I'm toeing the line between genZ/millennial but my fandom experience in the early years was a bit different, where there wasn't as strong of a backlash and negative reaction to sexuality and sex in regards to fandom (people were writing fic about high school age characters doing alllll sorts of stuff and, thinking back, getting a call-out about that content kinda seems unfathomable in retrospect). I genuinely feel it's mostly a culture clash in fandom spaces. But with kindness and re-education and conversation, I think we can either come to agreements and find common ground rather than fighting and call-outs and witch-hunts and all that negativity. I find it more helpful to ask the puritan-mind set folks "why do you feel this way? what about this is so upsetting to you? Have you never really examined your judgement and why it makes you upset?" Learning moments! Kindness and compassion goes a long way in fighting repression and bigotry, and I know that's a hard pill to swallow sometimes in the face of contentiousness.

Re: not understanding the teenage boy experience - another verrrrrrry big factor that I also think simultaneously plays into what's going on, even with those well-intentioned and supportive, just hesitant. It's just the honest truth. Without getting too far into gender politics et. al - yeah, unless you yourself are or were a teenage boy, especially a gay teenage boy - there's a lot of presumption and inference and while mileage does very much vary in personal experience, there are tenets that will factor into an accurate portrayal. Yes - not every teenager is going to have sex. Not every teenager is even interested in sex and many will grow into adults who aren't interested either and that's totally valid and fine. But I do not think that is the case for these specific characters, personally. It's a disservice to sanitize queer sexuality. To put it bluntly, if two teenage boys are dating/have feelings for each other - they're going to want to have sex. Are you kidding me? Teenagerdom? The horniest time of our lives??? Yall. It's going to be awkward and fumbling and exploratory and they won't fully know what they're doing, but these boys will want to experiment and get it on. That's nature, that's biology. It honestly cracks me up when I read some sfw byler fics with heavy make-out scenes and the next moment it's like 'oh we better stop before we get carried away' and I'm like, oh honey. That's not how dicks work. They're already hard and they both know it. They're sixteen. You get hard at a strong breeze sometimes. The love of your young little life has his hands up your shirt and his tongue in your mouth? Boner central. Sorry!!!

Re: a different portrayal of Mike and El - interesting as well. There are so many factors here to consider. Showing Mike and El in more 'intimate' scenarios I don't think really would have that big of a factor in regards to the anti-sex brigade in general. A big portion of the same people who spout off about 'they're minors! we don't need to see sex in media!' would say it whether it's mike and el or mike and will... but there's def a layer of homophobia inherent with mike and will in conjunction with that mindset, even by people who claim to like and support gay ships. The Will dilemma tho. I've been puzzling over the Will dilemma since I stepped into the Byler fandom. And why he, despite being literally "the gay character" - his sexuality is less explored in regard to the most baseline aspects of being gay. Is it infantilizing because he's our cute sweet little victim? Is it because he has yet to actually pursue his love interest in the narrative? I'm still working on pondering this myself!! Because it isn't at all how I viewed his situation or character. But, very interesting points...

[bit-of-a-nerd]

What Mike’s Room Means About Byler

we’ve all talked and hear about mike’s rooms queercoding. people talk a lot about the posters, which have two things: fantasy and men. men is obvious queercoding when you look at other characters rooms. the lack of women is interesting when making the case that hes gay not bi. but theres something that people dont talk a lot about

mike and el have a very strong sci-fi coding. that makes sense, its a sci-fi show, and their biggest season together was the season based as an homage to classic 80’s sci-fi films. creators have made comparisons to et, her powers in s1 had a strong “alien” vibe from sci-fi, and imagery with things like star wars. 

however, byler has a strong fantasy coding. their first scene (both at all, but also their first one on one scene) had to do with dnd (fantasy game). this coding does go away for a bit in s2 when dnd takes a bit of a backseat (except for dustin coining the name of the mind flayer). but its back again in full force for s3. their major s3 fight (with TONS of queer mike coding and byler coding in general) was after the failed dnd game. will’s dnd game had some of the most pure fantasty vibes that we’ve seen of st dnd games.  the music he used, the costuming, the village all screamed medieval fantasy. 

not to mention dnd used to point towards mikes conformity. him leaving it in s3 is a sign of conformity, but him returning shows him starting to embrace himself. his costuming at rink o mania show’s thats not fully the case, pointing towards something else being the root of the conformity. then one of the (if not the) biggest byler scene, and the crux of what will be a major byler focused plot point, is will’s painting and the van scene. the painting? A FANTASY DND FIGHT! there’s a reason people love cleradin au’s and love the ship names cleradin and wiseheart. because dnd, and by extent fantasy, are woven into byler.

so keeping all that in mind, lets talk about rooms. rooms are usually a place for self expression. posters and things that express who you are and your interests. we've seen the duffers use rooms to express this in the past. but, they’ve also used rooms to show attraction. we dont see the second point much in mikes season 1 room, but we see the first. his room is a reflection of his nerdy interests and his friends mainly (also closet imagery!!!). but now that hes growing into a teenager it makes sense that we would begin to see the second part when we finally get his room again in s4. 

so: interests, we see his fantasy posters and his guitar. his fantasy posters line back up with his participation in hellfire. not TONS there, but some signals to him adopting eddies style due to some facsination/hero worship/crush(???) of the guy (an example being the guitar).

but attraction is where his room gets REALLY interesting. he has MULTIPLE posters of shirtless men. his one way sign to the closet. does more need to be said? it does. because attraction to men and being closeted, doesn’t mean much for being in relationships. (again bi people do exist!! he could be closeted and still in love with his gf)

In this scene he’s reading a letter from his girlfriend, in their ‘perfect’ relationship, their sci-fi coded relationship. so, even with the attraction to men coded, maybe the duffers didnt see the need to recode his female attraction, they just added coding of his relationship into his room, right? he might just not be the guy to have a shrine to his partner, he might just be more subtle?

except all the posters are more fantasy leaning. which is a different genre from scifi. his room does not point towards his relationship with el. but we fantasy is the coding behind his and will’s relationship. the same relationship that in their time apart he’s somehow managed to start acting weirder around his best friend, and feel the need to assert that they. are. just. friends. the same friend who just got confirmed in love with mike, and is now a love interest. 

I know theres been a lot of talk about mikes room but people haven’t really talked about the fantasy aspect, or bylers fantasy coding and mlvns sci-fi coding. I think it’s a lot more important than people are giving it credit for. 

[thestrangestthing89]

I think a lot of situations get interpreted differently based on who is saying/doing something rather than taking the whole situation or relationship dynamic into consideration.

When Steve tells Nancy he wants to marry her and have 6 kids the people who stan Steve think it's romantic. But Steve broke up with Nancy 2+ years prior and has had minimal interaction with her since then. And no one-on-one interaction until S4 (and even then it was minimal). If Jonathan had been in his situation it wouldn't have been considered romantic. If they broke up and didn't see each other again for years and suddenly after 3 days of reuniting he was proposing and saying he wanted 6 kids with her, people would be understandably weirded out by this. The action itself was awkward when you consider their relationship (or lack thereof). The circumstances made that an inappropriate thing to say. It shouldn't matter who is saying it.

If Mike's monologue to El was done by one of the other couples, people would assume that relationship was doomed. If Hopper kept saying generic "it was love at first sight" crap and wasn't able to give any specific examples of why Joyce means a lot to him it wouldn't be good. Hopper has known Joyce since they were younger and not being able to reference any kind of moment that meant something to him would of course be a red flag.

But I can't even picture one of the younger couples saying this instead of Mike. Not even Dustin and Susie who seem like they know each other pretty well even though we don't see much of them. They bond over science and movies. I think they could come up with a speech more specific than the one Mike came up with. And I know Lucas and Max would have done better here. At least the Lucas and Max of S4. They are both more emotionally mature with regard to the way they relate to each other. And if Lucas had gotten a chance to say something like this to Max when she was being Vecna'd he could have. Because him and Max have bonded and they have shared interests and actually like spending time together.

So I don't buy for one second that Mike's speech was just age appropriate because he gave better speeches to Will multiple times - the shed in S2, and in Lenora in S4. And Mike has spent enough time with El at this point that he should be able to clearly explain why he likes her with examples easily. Even a 5 year old can tell you why they like their friend. It may be with basic examples like they have the same favorite color but they can still give reason. Mike's example of her wearing a yellow shirt when they met isn't a reason why he likes her. It's a statement of fact like him saying it was raining and cold. It's not personal.

And that talk in Lenora - the flirty one with Will where he's checking him out and telling him how nothing is the same without him - would have 100% be viewed as romantic if Mike said it to El. Or if Jonathan said it to Nancy. Or if Lucas said it to Max. No one would doubt this for a second. But Mike has never spoken to El like this ever. He has never acted like he's attracted to her (she hasn't acted like she's attracted to him either). They don't have that kind of relationship.

But people's perception is different when it's Mike and Will so they bypass the flirting and make excuses. If you can apply the same action and dialogue to a different group of people the response should be the same. If Dustin had checked out Lucas and told him Hawkins wasn't the same without him I would immediately assume a romantic relationship was being planned there. Because the action itself is inherently romantic. It would also feel completely out of place and random since there was no build up, but Mike and Will have been acting like this with each other for couple seasons now. They have this relationship dynamic where flirting is now normal, but Mike and El don't do this. Not ever. They do not act the way other romantic couples act.

It's not the story being more age appropriate. They are 15 years old and they were separated from each other for months. They would be all over each other when they reunited. But instead we get:

- Mike being super awkward and trying not to get close enough to her to hug properly and avoiding eye contact at the same time all while hyper focused on Will, - Mike asking El if she is going to hang out with her friends right after they reunite (why don't you want alone time with your girlfriend Mike?), - El trying to get Mike to focus on her and her alone and completely ignoring that Will is there and missing his friend, - Mike completely missing the fact that El is uncomfortable around Angela because he wasn't paying attention to her, - Mike not even asking her what she's been up to lately or how she is (they talked about milkshakes for fucks sake. Nothing substantial), - Mike getting distracted when he's trying to look for her to focus on Will and doing the least to comfort her when she's upset. They haven't seen each other in months and this was their big romantic reunion? Again, with any other couple this would spell out the end. It would take a lot for them to come back from this. A forced I love you when things are dire isn't fixing this. It wouldn't fix any other couple either. The situation/circumstances are inherently problematic. No matter who it involves.

[gayofthefae]

Thinking about Mike and Will's queerness and how they've both said things that are either 80s-misogynistic or in retrospect, queercoded (doesn't erase the misogyny, I'm not saying that).

In seasons 2 and 3, Will says girls can't skate or like science/acts confused at the notion. In retrospect, they had him make anti-girl comments based on a lack of interest in girls SPECIFICALLY in contexts where he was responding to his friends' attraction to them: first when Dustin and Lucas were watching Max, then when Dustin was talking about Suzie.

In season 3, Mike says that girls operate on "emotion not logic". Lucas reaffirms this, but he's the first one to say it. In retrospect (and even outside of queerness, this was my interpretation on a first watch), we can deduce that Mike says this because HE was strategically and logically TRYING to seem straight in his relationship with El, afraid of acting on emotion because he wasn't secure enough in that fact that his "true self" WAS straight, so he didn't trust his instincts to "seem straight" - thus, him mirroring Lucas and repeatedly being confused in his attempts to do so, aside from this conversation in which he confidently says that he is operating in their relationship based on logic and not emotion.