#meta: precanon

[addictedtostorytelling]

I'm curious, in you headcanon, do you think that Grissom and Sara had sex in SF or only in LV?

hi, anon!

something in-between?

so i give my headcanon on this topic a bit of play in the two most recent chapters of my canon-compliant wip, if you're interested (see here and here).

heads up for anyone who's still following that story: my response here spells out some ideas that so far have only been hinted at in the fic, so, uh, beware of (mild) spoilers, i guess.

for the more "barebones" version, check under the "keep reading."

__

so my headcanon for grissom and sara pre-vegas goes as follows:

they meet and fall in love at first sight at the 50th annual forensic academy conference (held in san francisco, california) on february 9th, 1998.

they spend the next three days attached at the hip not only during conference hours but in the evenings, taking long, meandering, and very romantic strolls around the bay city. each night, grissom drops sara off at her front doorstep before returning to his hotel.

on the final night, february 12th, 1998, he finally summons the courage to kiss her for the first time under the porchlights. the next morning, she drops him off at the airport, and they part with more kisses.

thereafter, they keep in regular contact, both via phone calls and longhand snail-mail letters.

in october 1998, sara works a homicide with a badly decomposed body ravaged by insect activity that she can't make any sense of. asks grissom if he'll consult, and he ends up flying to san francisco and spending four days in town, helping her get the solve. for propriety's sake, he stays at a hotel for the duration of his visit, since he's in town in the capacity of an official sfpd crime lab consultant™ and they want to keep everything on the up-and-ups (particularly as he may eventually have to testify as an expert witness, should the case ever go to trial).

however, in what limited free time they have during the investigation and after the case is concluded, he and sara do very much comport themselves like a couple. though they don't have sex, there is a definite physical component to their relationship: lots of handholding, kissing, and even a few hot-and-heavy make-out sessions on the beach.

in my headcanon, this visit is when they take that photo that appears in both the deleted scene from episodes 08x12 "grissom's divine comedy" and 09x05 "leave out all the rest."

over the course of the next two years, they continue to see each other annually at the forensic academy conference (held each year in february) and on a handful of other occasions—on one particularly memorable visit: grissom tells sara he'll be in california visiting his mother over a long weekend and asks if he can see her while he's there; she of course says yes, clears her schedule; he shows up in san francisco and they spend a lovely saturday afternoon together; he only admits on the tail end of their time together that in point of fact his mother lives in los angeles and he traveled seven hours north to get to the bay area; suffice it to say, sara's jaw drops—and while their time spent together is always romantic and affectionate, never do they label the nature of their relationship or make claims on each other.

because they are each painfully aware that they live and work 400 miles away from each other and only get to see each other a couple times a year at most, neither one of them is brave enough to say or do anything to really "rock the boat" between them. for as strongly as they feel about each other, they've never "dated" or been able to share their lives, so they're not to a point where either one of them would feel particularly comfortable declaring anything, much less making a bold move. instead, they just savor what little time they get together and idly daydream about a "someday" where they can actually have a full romantic relationship.

of course, in the meanwhile, whenever they see each other, they continue to express their affection, and their physical relationship gains traction. they get close to having sex a couple of times but never actually manage to "cross the threshold" before being preempted or without one or the other of them (typically grissom) backing down.

sara assumes that grissom is just being a gentleman, trying not to take advantage, and to some extent, she's right.

however, he also has some very deep-seated trepidations surrounding the possibility of having sex with her, not because he doesn't want to—just the opposite, in fact—but rather because every romantic relationship he has ever had previously has gone off the rails once things turned sexual, and he doesn't want to risk losing sara in the same way he has his past girlfriends.

god bless his poor little demisexual heart.

in february 2000, two years after their first meeting, at what will be their final forensic academy conference before sara ends up moving to vegas, grissom and sara rendezvous in reno.

nick and warrick actually attend this conference along with grissom, but they have trouble keeping track of him. he somehow manages to dodge them for pretty much the entire four days that they're there and is so entirely successful at doing so that they don't actually meet sara or even have any idea that she exists until months later, when they meet her for the first time after grissom hires her at the lab.

in the meanwhile, per their usual, grissom and sara maximize their time together, attending the same panels and keeping each other company in the evenings. however, despite being happy to be around grissom, sara is a little down throughout the conference, as she's been butting heads with her work superiors as of late and dreads having to return to san francisco once the conference concludes. thankfully, grissom is able to console her and offer sound advice. he also tells her—jokingly, she incorrectly assumes—that she should consider coming to las vegas to work with him.

this conversation is one of the most intimate and confessional they've ever had, and it segues into them spending the last day of the conference drawing closer and closer together, both emotionally and physically.

that evening, the conference caps off with a banquet and open-bar party, which they both dress up for but only attend for all of five minutes before slipping out together. one thing leads to another, and they wind up back at sara's hotel room, where she invites grissom inside, and he accepts.

to use the "sex as baseball" metaphor: they don't hit a homerun, but they do round third base, with grissom using his hand to bring sara to orgasm. the experience is incredibly intimate and connective for both of them; secretly, the best sexual contact either one of them has ever had, despite not being full-on intercourse.

grissom is secretly afraid to go further (as he doesn't want to ruin what has otherwise been a perfect thing), but he is on the brink of tossing aside his caution and just doing what comes naturally as sara turns her attentions onto him in the afterglow.

unfortunately, at that point, grissom is being paged by none other than warrick and nick, with whom he has plans to drive back to vegas that night, in preparation for their scheduled shift the next evening.

he and sara end up parting.

of course, neither one of them is happy to have to say goodbye. but they both do so under the assumption that the next time they see each other, they'll finish what they started.

over the course of the next eight months, sara becomes increasingly unsatisfied at the sfpd and particularly with a new supervisor she can't seem to please.

then, in october 2000, after rookie trainee holly gribbs is killed on the job, grissom finds himself unexpectedly promoted to be the graveyard shift supervisor at the lvpd crime lab. in his first official act as management, he brings sara on to help investigate the circumstances of gribbs's murder, then immediately offers sara a permanent position on his team. she accepts without second thought, quitting her job at the sfpd, moving across state lines, and starting work at the las vegas crime lab, all within the course of just two weeks.

sara's expectation in moving to vegas is that with distance no longer impeding them, she and grissom will be able to finally commence a real romantic relationship—and, initially, he shares her same wavelength. for the first couple of months she is in vegas, they still comport themselves like a couple off the clock; albeit, they never get back around to resuming their activities from reno. however, as grissom soon realizes just how much is at stake for him, having the (younger) woman he's in love with as his employee, within a few months, the nature of their dynamic very much shifts, with grissom emotionally retreating from sara and their interactions becoming more and more centered on the professional.

as i talk about here, the change isn't one that happens all at once or even fully sticks once it's made, so sara doesn't really wrap her head around it until she's been in vegas for over a year and suddenly comes to the conclusion that despite what she had anticipated when she agreed to move to nevada, she and grissom are actually (emotionally) further away from each other than they have ever been before.

things unspool from there as we see in canon.

they go through years of back and forth, where though they are still very much in love with each other, grissom's reluctance to act on that love traps them in a strange limbo, their relationship neither fully platonic nor fully romantic, fully professional nor fully personal, fully public nor fully private, etc.

eventually, sara tires of the runaround and dates hank peddigrew, eliciting grissom's strong jealousy.

of course, it's worth noting: part of her motivation in being with hank is that, by that point, it's been years since she's had sex, and she's sick of going without it; she can't wait around for grissom forever, you know?

however, even when she is with hank, sara still longs for grissom, and so immediately moves back to pursuing him once she and hank break up.

grissom's outright rejection of her after the lab explosion then serves as the catalyzing event for the remainder of the gsr love story, as she spirals into a depression thereafter, and he eventually realizes that he is at risk of losing her forever—a possibility which scares him more than any of the potential consequences of being with her that he had feared previously. jolted to action, grissom makes his commitment to sara clear, and, by my estimation, by s5, they finally (properly) come together as a couple.

it is at this point, i assume, they have full-on sexual intercourse for the first time.

anyway.

like i said, i've written more about the subject in my fic, so if you want the more narrative version, it's there.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[faxxmodem]

tbh without eric matthews being a bog-standard shitty cop like. nothing that happened in the course of the saw movies would have happened

if he doesn't frame amanda on drug charges then she never goes to prison, never becomes addicted, never pushes cecil to go through with the robbery that ends in jill's miscarriage

john's terminal cancer is inevitable but without gideons death he has his family and he has a reason to persevere. probably still a classist bootstrappy kind of guy, probably still resentful of those that he thinks don't appreciate their lives, probably not the leader of a small torture cult

and i don't say this to strip amanda or anyone else in the universe of responsibility for their actions, just to appreciate how this reflects the ways the carceral system can radically derail someone's life and create entire networks of suffering

[jonsaforever]

Does someone know a Jonsa fanfic where Sansa arrives in Castle Black and Jon is still in his wolf-coma? Ghost bonding with Sansa while Jon is warging on him…?

Please let me know 😇 I would appreciate it a lot

[outofangband]

in response to an ask from @justpostsyeet about what Laws and Customs of the Eldar say about sexual assault

under a cut for non graphic discussion of this!

also thank you to @undercat-overdog for helping me find the relevant passage that I literally had memorized but could not find (seriously I spent like an hour reading through Morgoth's Ring and could not find the part I needed, my fault for researching when half asleep but anyways, Undercat saved this post!)

The ask: Hi, hope your having a good day/night (maybe this request doesn't worsen your day). I honestly love your posts and I've a thing that I want to ask to you.

Maybe you has done this before but what do you think the elves view on sexaul assault must be?

And even if it's true what must be the reaction of elves when the a) hear about such news, b) witness such cruelty, c) experiences such awful things themselves .

I know it's a very sensitive topic and I don't want you to feel uncomfortable so, ignore it if you want. I've my own headcanons but I just wanted to know your opinions.

My response: this does not worsen my day! I'm sure you know this from my posts but I write a lot of darker topics and I'm fine discussing this! Indeed, I enjoy discussing darker topics, I can find it very cathartic to write about

Thank you so much for the ask and for thinking of me!

The concept that elves cannot survive sexual assault comes from Laws and Customs of the Eldar, an essay style section of Morgoth's Ring, in the Histories of Middle Earth. In LaCE, as it's often known, Ælfwine, or Elfwine, a pre canon character in The legendarium is credited with the editing of this text as well as other parts of the histories of Middle Earth adding another aspect of meta to it.  

LaCE is a controversial essay. Many consider it to be precanon or non canon. Others consider it an in universe philosophical or religious work rather than biological facts or universal standards for the elves. I think this interpretation is probably accurate

The relevant part you're talking about is a footnote in response to this line of LaCE Even when  in after days as the history is reveal many of the Eldar in Middle Earth became corrupted and their hearts darkened by the Shadow that lies upon Arda seldom is any tale told of Deeds of lust among them.

The footnote reads ...But among all those evils there is no record of any among the elves that took another spouse by force for this was wholly against their nature and one so forth would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible even if it could be thought that any elf would purpose to use for it; for the Eldar can read in the eyes of another whether they be wed or unwed 

I agree with you that it's probably not the case that sexual violence instantly leads to death.

I think it's fun to play around with whether or not LaCE is a, canon or b, strict biological law! Generally I go with it not being so but there is a lot of fascinating ideas that can be explored, if often horrifying ones, treating it like that! (the idea that elves can tell in the eyes of another if they're married or not is FASCINATING even if the idea that such a phenomena would prevent sexual violence is...troublesome...)

On the basis of LaCE not being biological law though, there are a few possibilities for this inclusion (note: these are in universe possibilities, not a complete list of reasons why Tolkien might have included it)

a, an in universe narrator trying to mitigate or cover up the fact that this did indeed occur

b, as in most versions he appears in, Ælfwine is not an elf but a human, this could simply be an idealistic notion or misconception or even misunderstanding or mistranslation

c, sexual violence is a taboo subject in many human cultures, it's certainly not implausible that it was treated similarly the elves. Even if it's not an attempt to cover up actions by well known figures in the history of the Eldar, it could be a denial of cultural traumas or a refusal to reckon with a certain kind of pain

The fact that it specifically reads 'no record of any taking the spouse of another by force' is somewhat strange. Obviously, non married people can be the victims of assault (and people can be victimized by those they're married to; it's worth noting here that Tolkien did seem to realize both, some of the primary, and only, instances of rape in the legendarium are instances of marital rape)

A...generous reading is that it is worded like this because the footnote appears in relevance to the section about marriage and this is meant to discuss specifically how certain trauma affects the marital bond, something that LaCE defines as a spiritual and physical matter.

(Plenty of horror you could potentially explore there; spouses actually feeling the pain and trauma of their partners due to this bond, whether trauma from this kind of violence or other)

What I do think is true is that elves have a stronger connection between body and mind and soul and that severe trauma of any kind can lead to physical consequences up to, including and beyond death of the body. This is of course not unheard of in humans, stress takes a physical toll. But for elves I think this connection is perhaps more profound.

This is not limited to sexual assault and indeed most of the instances we see of this in canon are not related to sexual assault.

It's worth noting that there are some troublesome aspects of Tolkien's wording. Obviously the linking of sexual assault and lust is not entirely accurate. Desire and lust often do not play a role in sexual violence; power and control perhaps being more pertinent. Then of course the fact that it says 'no record of one taking the spouse of another by force' is also questionable as I talked about above.

In conclusion, I think like the rest of LaCE, it makes more sense as the philosophy of one group or individual rather than biological reality.

Finally, I'll note that the two primary examples I can think of in the works of victims of sexual violence who "choose" death or at least leaving body or life in some form or another are not elves but are Aerin, a human, and Arien, a Maia (Arien's example also not being strictly canon), both of whom choose fire. (also I think that whether or not Aerin died is actually ambiguous and is certainly not definite, that being said the idea that she did is a perfectly plausible reading) Also why are their names so similar...

[esther-dot]

Do you have any suggestions/meta recommendations for introducing someone to jonsa? My sister was the one one who got me into asoiaf a decade+ ago & while my journey has led me to jonsa, the idea of a jon + sansa romance was completely foreign to her when I finally brought it up after the end of season 8. She’s an absolute blank slate & I want to give her everything but I have no idea where to start!! I bow to your wisdom 🙏🏼

Our minds work in such unique ways, it’s hard to say what would be the most compelling bit of evidence for a specific person? We recently had a fandom poll and everyone is pretty enamored with Jon beheading Slynt, which happens to be my favorite bit of evidence because it involves minimal interpretation, no reading of the author’s mind, a simple wish for a hero and Jon fulfilling the wish. It’s a unique connection between Jon and Sansa.

What makes it feel romantic is that we then have Sansa say “no one will ever marry me for love” and if the pattern holds of her despairing only for Martin to be showing the audience that she needn’t despair (no heroes -> Jon decapitates Slynt, no true knights -> Brienne exists, no one will marry her for love -> ???), she will marry someone who isn’t after her claim, but how will the reader know that person wants her, not her claim? Conveniently, Jon has been offered and already rejected Winterfell. Not just rejected it, said, Winterfell belongs to Sansa. Again, a unique connection.

I find that indicative of intent, one method Martin uses to make Jonsa feel embedded in their personal journeys while they’re so far apart. This will make the romance feel like it’s always been written into their story, not a last-minute development. But, I know that isn’t the line of thought that convinced others, so I will share a few favorite metas.

Find Sansa’s Husband

This one by Istumpy is a great angle to approach bringing someone into the fold. (That sounds a little culty…😅) Some may say Sansa is too young for a husband (we all think that tbh), but if you take seriously the issue of carrying on the Stark line, it is a great breakdown of contenders for her husband, and very accessible to someone who isn’t already invested in the idea.

I’ll include Jon and Waymar parallels because they too seem deliberate. Not sure why Sansa had a crush on this guy who happens to foreshadow Jon’s death unless there’s a connection being made there?

Jonnel x Sansa (1, 2) For some, this is the clincher. If your sister buys into the idea of precanon/history foreshadowing events in the series, this might do it.

Compatible dreams. Short, to the point, matchy matchy. Love. starkmaiden is also responsible for the work of art that is The Jonsa Compendium (not the first thing for a new fan to read, but a wonderful resource once you’re initiated).

Now the next one is one of the first metas I ever read (I was never involved in fandom before Jonsa), and I still adore it years and thousands and thousands of words of absorbed meta later. We didn’t get the predicted endpoint; however, this is where Jonsa began for many people because the OP predicted the Jon and Sansa reunion way before it happened on the show. The ability to predict something accurately makes me take that person seriously, and the OP called stuff very, very early. They even mentioned the NedCat of it all and then the show had Jon/Sansa cosplay them and recreate one of their scenes! Even though the conclusion isn’t what will happen, the argument for Jonsa as a romantic pairing is wonderful. It makes a great, overall case for them, and for many, A Time for Wolves is The Jonsa Meta.

Drifting-snowflakes made a series of posts that are very convincing. They kinda, look at what the show did and point out how that did and did not align with what we might reasonably expect in the books. If your sister accepts some of the broad ideas of the GoT ending, these are compelling arguments for what to expect in Martin’s. A Dream for Spring and Why Jon and Sansa will get married (1, 2)

If your sister is a lit nerd, cappymightwrite is the blogger she’d be drawn to. Here’s a post talking about the incest motif in the romantic movement and several posts about the Jon/Byron connection (1, 2, 3). That being pertinent to Jonsa for…reasons. 😬

A lot of us are fans of The Lord of the Rings and we all know Martin is a huge fan, so maybe your sister would enjoy the parallels between Aragorn/Arwen and Jonsa? I think the idea that Martin is writing his own, darker, more complicated version of that romance compelling.

Or, maybe a specific angle is too limited? Some people work best with a more comprehensive presentation. Here are posts that talk about several things all at once:

Jon Snow: The Silent Unknown and Unthought Answer to Sansa's Hopes

Book foreshadowing

Jonsa Endgame foreshadowing

Book hints in chronological order

Also, over the years I’ve noticed many, many Jonsas come to it via fic, so if she’s into GoT-verse fic, I’d rec thimbleful’s alternate s8 (that was written well before s8) because it’s been called out by non shippers as a great way to wrap up everything we’d been given in the previous seasons. Once Jonsa is something you enjoy, it’s a lot more likely you’ll read theories with an open mind.

Your closer made me laugh, and I’m sorry I don’t have one “this is the answer!!!” recommendation, but I hope one of those seems like something your sister would enjoy!

[sideboot]

wip masterpost

inspired by the pinned post of exuberantocean, it’s a great idea and other fic writers should do it too.  i like writing and talking about my writing, and sometimes the latter makes the former happen more.  no promises though.

these are a list of some of the things i have plotted and am occasionally actively working on.  feel free to ask about any of them.  no promises to when or if they will ever get finished.  if i make individual posts pitching or detailing the wip i will come back here and link them

Untitled Jamie Tartt character study inspired specifically by That One Revelation from episode 6

Final Stretch: A Roy/Jamie Yoga Au

Rebound: A Keeley/Roy/Jamie fic, post break up Roy and Keeley unknowingly both rebound onto Jamie, talked about here and technically also here

Roy Kent + Boarding School Syndrome Meta: Raised by an Institution (sequel to this)

Roy Kent + Boarding School Syndrome Meta: Interpersonal Relationships

Passing Practice: Sam Obisanya Character Study

A Wrinkle In Time: S3!Roy time travels to season 1 episode 1

Leverage AU based on an idea/post originally by kalinara

The following are ideas that I originated in the season 1 era, like before season 2 even came out.

Fantasy Football: A Keeley/Roy/Jamie explicit fic

Higgins & Rebecca: A precanon Higgins POV fic on meeting and befriending Rebecca Mannion, his friend and boss’s charmingly much maligned wife

Youth League: Post canon future fic.  Before Diane was even born, I had a fic idea about Rupert Manion’s daughter tracking down Rebecca Welton looking for answers by pretending the questions were for an article in her school paper

Sunshine Sam: Roy/Sam fluffy fic inspired by Roy literally picking Sam up for that one goal celebration

[jackoshadows]

tags from @thelustybraavosimaid

This is exactly it, they consider Arya to be unworthy of the relationship with Jon because she does not fit their tradfem standards and their 'Stark sisters foreva' is about Arya being subservient to Sansa. It's not about the story, the reasons behind Jon and Arya's love for each other, their characters - they don't care about all that. They just want Arya's relationship with Jon for Sansa that's it and willy nilly steal the canon material from Arya and use it for Sansa - and not just for Jonsa but for pretty much everything else like QITN and leader of the North and all that.

Also, Arya will be meeting Jon Snow again when she is 11 plus and the Jonsas go on and on about how she is too young etc and yet their entire Jonsa nonsense is based on Jon Snow being in love with 11 year old Sansa and the precanon crush.

All that 'radiant' shite and him getting 'bewitched' by 11 year old Sansa's singing, his body subconsciously getting aroused by subconscious memories of 11 year old Sansa and how Val's hair reminds him of 11 year old Sansa's red hair and even the above example of how is in love with 'little sister' Sansa. So Jon Snow having a crush on and being bewitched and aroused by preteen 11 year old Sansa is entirely okay - that's the basis of ALL their Jonsa metas.

11 year old Sansa's beauty is apparently too great to resist for Jon Snow. Just not happening for 11 year old 'ugly' Arya because she's too young. And so they steal from the deep emotional bond and platonic love between Jon and Arya as evidence that Jon is subconsciously attracted to 11 year old Sansa. What a bunch of pathetic, desperate absolute morons with a total lack of self-awareness and an inability to see through their own hypocrisy.

Not to mention their obsession with having kids. Again and again their MAIN evidence for Jonsa is that Sansa and Jon want kids.... They expect 13/14 year old Sansa to have sex and have kids with Jon before the series ends and these are the same folks who love to write vitriolic hate posts about 15/16 year old Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Sansa did what? Are they reading asoiaf? Can someone give me a hint when she was “bewitching” Jon with songs?

[officialralsei]

wait admin are you implying ralsei has ocd

a/n: complicated cause like 95% of his anxieties and compulsions are related to the very real problems of Literally Being An Object and also Being Isolated His Whole Life, but yeah, I do think he can also have a sprinkle of compulsory mental rituals along with the rest of his mental health problems. as a treat

[terrainofheartfelt]

do you think nate was the first guy serena slept with who she genuinely had strong feelings for

Ohhhhh I don’t know. We don’t know much specifics about Serena precanon, but I guess we can infer some things. Like, Dan was the first person she had a significant, long term relationship with. And she absolutely definitely had a deep connection with Nate before she and Dan even knew each other. So by that logic…probably?

But this ask got me thinking…when Carter rolls into town, it’s alluded that they a significant fling sometime precanon: ie, Santorini, and the way Lively plays it, and the way they get together a couple years later, it seems that there are Feelings there too.

But I have no idea timing wise how that all shakes out bc the gg writers could not pin down a timeline if their life depended on it. But, here’s what I’m thinking: Serena has her summer in Europe, Santorini with Carter happens, the end of the summer/beginning of fall is the Shepherd wedding, and the events of which spook her enough to go to boarding school. (But canon also says to S B & Nate all together that Thanksgiving? Which means the Shepherd wedding happened in the winter/spring instead??? I’ve made myself confused. S, help me.)

But back to your question: maybe? Probably? It’s really up to your interpretation of Serena as a character and her relationships. but I think I concluded that for me, the answer is no? bc Carter?

[marcspectrr]

Manifesting season 2 to have a non-linear timeline with these small ah ha moments of progression. I'm talking flashbacks.

Give me a flashback of Marc and Layla on their first mission together, then cut to them using those same strategies post end of s1, where Marc no longer has the suit (or so he thinks). Give me a flashback of Marc isolating from her early on in their relationship, then cut to them reaching a breakthrough with their communication, a breakthrough that looks like a small step in the territory of healthy trauma recovery. Give me a flashback of their wedding, then cut to them feeling that same love, only this time it comes with a pain they're both learning how to shoulder together and heal from.

Give me flashbacks!!!!

a brief moonlayl timeline in the MCU

March 9, 1987

Marc is born.

October 28, 1994

Layla is born. (idk why but I love how Oscar and May share birthdays w Marc and Layla (♡ヮ♡) they're different years but still)

~ 1996

Randall dies. Marc creates Steven. (this is a rough estimate. marc's 10th birthday eventually rolls around and he doesn't get a colorful drawing that he would tease but secretly love and collect in a drawer in his desk. he thinks of the last drawing he supposes he'd ever see, the unfinished goldfish with one fin, the one he spent a couple of months working up the courage to ask his dad to put in a frame and hang up in his room. his mom doesn't watch him blow out his candles, doesn't even leave her room. his 12th birthday rolls around and she's there, at the table, too loud, too unfamiliar, and he wants to disappear. steven draws him pictures. he keeps them right beside their pile of shared toys.)

~ 2004

Marc leaves home and enlists in the Marines. (he's crying, he knows he's crying, though he doesn't know why. he can't seem to remember much lately. after she picks up the belt, time becomes hazy. some part of him knows it's not steven.)

2007

On his second tour in Iraq, Marc goes AWOL in a fugue state, causing his superiors to catch on to his disorder and dig up his past. He is dishonorably discharged. He then becomes an underground boxer, where he meets Frenchie. (hours, it must be. he's losing hours when they find him wandering and he doesn't even know why.)

2008-2015

Marc becomes a mercenary. Layla joins her father on his trips to archeological sites. (one trip turns into two, then two into three. soon, layla finds herself hanging onto every word, every lesson, everything her father could give her. she takes it all in and feels proud to share his name.)

2015

Marc works for his former commanding officer, Raul Bushman. During one of their missions in Egypt, Bushman executes all of the archeologists at the dig site, including Doctor Abdallah El-Faouly. Bushman then shoots Marc, who ends up crawling towards Khonshu's temple and becomes Moon Knight. Marc tries to approach El-Faouly's daughter to tell her what happened but cannot bring himself to follow through. Layla is 21 and Marc is 28 when they meet.

2018

The Snap. (they're split up when it happens, when half the world disappears, and suddenly the space they're taking up in each other's lives becomes much more real. much more warm.)

December 14, 2018

Issue date on Marc's passport.

May 29, 2019

Issue date on Layla's (fake) passport.

Sometime between 2018 and 2023

Marc and Layla get married. They have their honeymoon in the Maldives. (here's why I think it's during the blip)

October 2023

Everyone comes back from the Blip.

~ 2016-2025

Layla and Marc go on missions together, locating Egyptian relics. Layla calls them 'adventures'.

They move into a place 20 minutes near Brixton. (I feel like they've lived in a few different places around the world together but their place in London has been their home for a while, including when Marc left Layla. When she's talking to Lagaro, she mentions Steven "living 20 minutes away from our old place". In my head it's like this. Marc wants to still be close to her so Steven gets a flat near their place, even if it's risky. After Marc leaves, Layla's trying to keep busy and is not actually in London when Steven turns on the phone. Maybe she's in a different time zone on a mission, winding down for the night, checking to see if she's able to track him and sorta has to stare at the screen for a minute bc she can. Maybe it's the middle of the night but she's wide awake now, and immediately calls him. "Why did you call me M-Marc?" She's angry, of course she is, but as soon as she hangs up, she books the earliest flight to London. Then when she gets there, she goes to their place, takes her Vespa to the streets and almost runs over her husband who will not drop the accent for some reason.

Early 2025 (2 months before start of show)

Wendy Spector dies. Marc leaves Layla and sends her unsigned divorce papers. Steven predominately fronts, living in a flat 20 minutes away from Marc and Layla's apartment.

Mid-2025

Steven turns on Marc's burner phone, causing Layla to track him down. They get split up during a fight with a jackal. The first time Layla sees Marc in around 2 months is in Cairo. (he can't even be mad at her. his face says it all.)

[addictedtostorytelling]

I LOVE your insight to GSR! I am re-watching the entire series and I have a question. If Grissom and Sara had a relationship before she came back to Vegas how does Grissom reconcile perusing other women? Is it because he doesn't think he can have Sara so he's trying to fill that void? I am interested in your thoughts!

hi, @i-collect-things!

i've previously written a bit about this topic here, if you're interested.

however, to elaborate (and update) a bit:

the short answer here is that while grissom falls in love with sara at first sight and has a kind of nebulous romantic and possibly sexual connection with her prior to her moving to vegas between 1998 and 2000, he is never in a committed, monogamous relationship with her at any point prior to 2005.

furthermore, for as much as he loves her from the first time he meets her in 1998, before october 2000, he never has any reason to believe that they can be together as a serious, committed couple, given that they live in separate states.

those things being the case, while i don't believe he dates a lot of people outside of her during this time and especially none seriously, he is technically at liberty to do so if he so chooses—just as she is technically at liberty to date other people if she so chooses—which is something he does at least one time that we know of (i.e., when he takes charlotte meridian to the dark side of the rainbow show sometime before mid-october 2000).

the reason why he does go on at least that one date (and possibly others unknown to us) is not because he's trying to move on from sara or because he "enjoys playing the field" or even because he is seeking to fill the hole in his life caused by her living faraway from him but rather just because he seeks social companionship.

certainly, he has no intentions to fall in love with anyone not sara and he's not searching for any kind of "deeper connection" outside of with her. likewise, by the same token, he also (as i read things) isn't interested in seeking out sex with anyone who isn't sara, either.

he is just interested in spending time with a person he finds intellectually and socially stimulating in the only way social conventions will really allow him to (i.e., by taking her on a date).

as for how he can justify pursuing other women (in this case, teri miller) after sara moves to vegas in 2000, at that point, he is very much trying to distract himself from sara, as he feels he cannot ever have her.

however, he is wildly unsuccessful in doing so, which is why his relationship with teri miller ends so abruptly and disastrously.

longer answer after the "keep reading," if you're interested.

__

so let's put the issue of grissom's romantic adventures between 2000-2005 on ice for a second and focus instead on the precanon era of his and sara's relationship between 1998-2000.

in order to answer the question "if grissom falls in love with sara the first time he meets her in 1998 and then they have some kind of ~relationship~ between 1998 and 2000 before she moves to las vegas and joins his team, why would he date other people besides her during this time?," first we have to deconstruct it.

point of deconstruction #1: for whatever grissom and sara's pre-vegas relationship is, it is not an official or labeled one. while during this period, they fall in love at first sight, may go on some sporadic dates, may potentially have some physical component(s) to their dynamic, etc., they aren't "boyfriend and girlfriend," per se.

given that they are living 400 miles away from each other and have no opportunities to see each other regularly, while connected, they are not committed.

in no sense is their relationship a formalized one, particularly since at this point in their history they have no reason to believe that their situation will ever really resolve itself, as she is living and working in california while he is living and working in nevada, and neither one of them has the intention to quit their job and/or move without first having some other place to land. as far as they see things, for as strong as their feelings for each other are, their separation from each other is interminable.

ergo, there is no expectation for monogamy between them at this point.

though they both are secretly heart-set on each other and would gladly give up seeing other people were the option to be exclusive with each other somehow suddenly to appear on the table, with her living in san francisco and him living in las vegas, they aren't actually in a position to build their lives around each other in that particular way yet.

so, though in love, they are still technically single.

and as single people, they are technically at liberty to date other people, if they so choose.

—which brings us to point of deconstruction #2: we don't actually know what either sara or grissom chooses in this regard.

like.

we don't know how much they do actually "date other people" after meeting each other.

doug wilson is the only even potential non-grissom "gentleman caller" from sara's past we know of whom she could possibly date during this time. however, not only is it unclear exactly what kind of relationship she and doug actually have—are they just mutually attracted to each other or do they actually hook up?—but it's also unclear when exactly during her san francisco days sara knows him; he is just as likely to predate sara meeting grissom as postdate it.

that so, we can't definitively say whether or not sara actually dates either doug or anyone else after the time when she meets grissom or not.

meanwhile, while we know grissom goes on a one-off (bad) date with charlotte meridian sometime prior to the events of episode 01x01 "pilot" in 2000, we can't actually speak to the fact that he sees any other women besides either her or sara between 1998-2000 before sara moves to vegas.

though it's technically possible that he may date julia holden during this time, it's also possible that he dates her before he ever meets sara (i.e., sometime prior to 1998).

excepting his unnamed college girlfriend (see episode 09x08 "young man with a horn"), whom he breaks up with long before even meeting sara, his only other confirmed "lady friend" on the show at all besides those two is teri miller, whom he meets and takes on a date in 2001, which, for those of us playing along at home, is only after sara moves to vegas and he begins trying, ineffectually albeit, to distract himself from her.

so while of course it's possible that he may date other women between 1998 and 2000—either casually or seriously—the fact is that we just don't have any explicit evidence that such is the case.

and, in fact, we have circumstantial evidence to suggest that maybe it isn't.

recall that in episode 01x04 "pledging mr. johnson" (which takes place, within the universe of the show, in november 2000), catherine accuses grissom of living "alone in [his] hermetically-sealed condo" and "[having] no relationships, so [there is] no chance one will slop over into a case."

again, though it's technically possible that grissom does have romantic relationships during this time and catherine simply doesn't know about them, based on how perceptive she is and how much she tends to be interested in his personal life, it seems unlikely to me that if he were in the habit of regularly dating, she would be entirely oblivious to that fact (especially since if the women he were dating weren't coworkers, there would be no reason for him to try to conceal his relationships with them from her a la what he later does when dating sara).

if catherine is savvy enough to pick up on the fact that he's attracted to and has some kind of romantic connection to sara right away when sara moves to vegas, then it stands to reason she could probably also do the same regarding other romantic relationships that grissom were to be having at this time if said relationships existed.

so the fact that she seems to be under the belief that he has no personal life/doesn't really date to me implies that maybe he is not in the habit of entertaining female companions very often during this 1998-2000 time period.

honestly, it's possible that charlotte meridian is one of just a very few women he dates after meeting sara—possibly even a singular anomaly unto herself.

—which brings us to point of deconstruction #3: there is a difference between going on dates and dating, particularly where grissom, with all of his nontraditional views on sex and romance, is concerned.

we know he feels that he and sara have been "connected" and have always had a relationship from their very first meeting (see episode 08x02 "a la cart"), but, as discussed above, just the fact of them being in love with each other from day #1 doesn't automatically mean they're dating in the sense of having a formalized relationship.

by that same token, just going out with someone for an evening doesn't necessarily mean one is dating them in the sense of having a formalized relationship, either.

there is a difference between a date (noun, singular) vs. dating (verb, present continuous).

and, to my mind, that distinction is very much in play with charlotte meridian, as grissom is concerned.

of course, i read grissom as being demisexual, so i don't think it's in his m.o. to approach random women with sexual intentions anyhow, but even if one doesn't share my views re: his orientation, we know for a fact that with charlotte meridian in particular, baby boy views their outing to the show as a social activity rather than a romantic one—hence why he doesn't even attempt to kiss her during the course of the evening, much less initiate sex, despite her sending him clear signals that she would like him to do so.

as i talk about in this post,

through grissom is certainly “smoother” and more charming with charlotte than he will be with other women throughout the course of the show, he is also seemingly oblivious to her sexual cues until she states them to him outright.

when she makes her quip about wanting to be pinned to a wall, grissom raises his eyebrow, surprised and intrigued, as if the thought had never occurred to him. his explanation of why he planned the date he did points to the fact that, for him, the object of the date was something other than sex. he wanted to do something new and interesting. in his view, the date was a means to explore a curiosity.

were sara in vegas at this time, there's no question grissom would've taken her as his date to the show instead.

now.

admittedly, we don't know the exact nature of grissom and charlotte's dynamic, and neither do we know how he approaches her to go to the show with him.

are they longstanding work friends prior to the time that he makes his invitation or is their acquaintance perhaps more nascent? is it the kind of deal where he calls her up one day after shift and asks her out with him in a formal way (giving her every expectation that the outing will, in fact, be a date, in the traditional romantic sense) or is it more the type of thing where somehow the topic of the show comes up while they are talking at work and he mentions his desire to go and then asks somewhat spur-of-the-moment if she might like to accompany him? does she possibly float the idea of them hanging out after work together to him (though she leaves him to determine the activity) or is he the initiator? are they in the habit of flirting before the date takes place or have they always maintained a professional rapport prior to this first foray into "extracurricular activities"? how does charlotte feel about him before they end up on their date—has she been nursing a crush on him for a while or had she never really thought about him in "that way" until he asks her out?

honestly, we don't know.

only headcanon can say.

but what we do know is that however everything goes down, grissom doesn't even attempt to "put the moves" on charlotte while they're out, despite the fact that she is sending him all sorts of signals that she would like him to do just that.

grissom's lack of sexual/romantic intentions with charlotte raises the question: "why does he even bother asking her out if he has no interest in pursuing a physical relationship with her?"

and that's where the whole "grissom has some different views about sex and romance than most folks do" angle comes into play.

again, regardless of whether or not one shares my view that grissom is demisexual, the fact is that he is somewhat "old fashioned" in how he socializes.

he isn't the type to try to sleep with someone on the first date (even if that someone would perhaps like him to); he likes to get to know the person first.

he also doesn't assume that one date will necessarily transpire into others, even if the company is relatively pleasant and the date itself goes well.

you know in the reboot how sara talks about how the "gears don't shift for [her] husband until he sees how they work" with regards to how he approaches his cases (see episode 01x04 "long pig")? well, the same principle applies to his social relationships: he likes to see how things play before he commits to anything (his falling in love with sara at first sight here being a notable exception to what is otherwise his standard operating procedure).

so him asking charlotte out for one night doesn't necessarily (to him) mean that he is trying to get into a relationship with her and/or sleep with her.

he's much more of a "one step at a time" guy (again, with everyone but sara).

maybe charlotte is under the impression that if he's asking her on a date, he must want to sleep with her and be nursing at least some hopes that they could eventually have a long-term romantic relationship.

but his thinking is way more discrete.

to him, it's just one date, and it will likely only ever be "just one date."

because that's the thing:

putting all of these points of deconstruction all together, what we're left with is a situation where we have a grissom who has met the love of his life but isn't in a formalized romantic relationship with her because they live 400 miles away from each other. though he has no real interest in dating (in the present continuous tense) or even with having casual sex with anyone in lieu of her, he does on occasion want for social companionship and so he will—rarely—go on one-off dates with other women.

were sara available to him instead, she would be his first (and only) choice for these activities.

but in her absence, he has to make do with others.

how many of these "others" there are, we can't say—though my personal sense (again, based on the fact that catherine seems to view the grissom of this era as being perpetually alone and single) is that there aren't many; maybe just charlotte meridian or possibly one or two more women beyond her during the entire two-and-a-half-year period between when he first meets sara and when he invites her to move to vegas and join his team.

it's not something he seeks out often.

just when there is an activity that he would enjoy having a companion for.

he's not stupid, of course: he knows that when he asks a single woman to spend time recreating with him outside of work, he's asking her on a date.

however, he also doesn't assume that just asking a woman on a date is the same as dating her, and neither does he have any expectation that the date will include any "physical activities," particularly as it is a novel occurrence.

so, to tie all of these loose threads together, here's how i parse the charlotte meridian situation in particular (as described in the first post linked at the top of this reply):

i believe grissom and sara have some kind of nebulous relationship going on between 1998 and 2000, while sara is living in san francisco and grissom is living in vegas. 

they’re both in love with each other, though they haven’t said so aloud. they see each other at conferences, and grissom occasionally visits sara in san francisco. they’re intimate in their own way, though not necessarily regularly. there’s a lot of assumptions held on both sides.

i tend to think that this relationship isn’t formalized and that there is no expectation for monogamy with it—i.e., that neither party presumes that they are dating each other exlusively or considers that the other will forego dating and sex with other persons, despite their interactions with each other.

when they meet at conferences or grissom comes to visit sara in san francisco, they’re together, but sara imagines—and cringes to do so—that grissom sometimes picks up other women when he’s home in vegas. 

(how could he not, being as handsome and brilliant and charming as he is?)

grissom likewise grits his teeth as he supposes that sara probably has dates and hookups in san francisco. 

(she’s young and beautiful and full of life, and he’s seen how younger men look at her when they’re dining out or walking around conference centers together. how could he ever hope she’d confine herself to him, particularly when they only see each other a few times a year?) 

of course, because it’s gsr, neither one of them ever broaches the topic with the other, and they each suffer in private as they consider the possibilities surrounding the other one’s love life, which they presume must include more persons than just themselves.

the truth is actually that neither one of them really has a great interest in dating other people, now that they’ve met each other, so they don’t really date around.

they’re more monogamous than either one of them would expect, but neither one of them knows it.

that’s not to say that neither party ever takes notice of someone else or that there aren’t a few times during those nearly three years—they meet in february 1998, and sara moves to vegas in october 2000—that they don’t occasionally go on dates with others, either because well-meaning coworkers set them up or they chance encounter someone interesting in their work or leisure time.

after all, they’re not technically a couple, and they don’t even live in the same state, so there’s no harm in it. it’s just that, in the backs of their minds, they both tend to think, “what’s the point? i’m already in love with someone else”—which means that even when they do go on dates with other people, these dates never transpire into anything bigger or more lasting. they’re both just kind of biding time and are emotionally loyal to each other, even if they’ll sometimes socialize with others.

so the thing with charlotte meridian?

that’s not something grissom goes into thinking, “i want to take a woman other than sara out on a date. i’m looking for someone else.”

that’s something where grissom hears about this “dark side of the rainbow” show playing at a drive-in movie theater in the desert. he’s read about the synchronicity, jungian theory, apophenia, and confirmation bias behind the whole phenomenon, and he’s eager to observe it for himself. if possible, he would like to bring someone from work in order to have partner with whom to discuss his observations.

he tries hinting at the possibility to catherine, but she shoots him down before he can even extend her a proper invitation: “alan parsons said the whole thing is a coincidence,” she tells him. “there’s no way i’d waste a night off watching ray bolger dance to ‘brain damage’ when i could be home with lindsey instead.”

nick and warrick he doesn’t socialize with outside of work, especially at this point. they’re his subordinates, and, while he enjoys their company, there’s a boundary there he isn’t going to cross.

so then grissom thinks of charlotte. he has had conversations with charlotte at work. she’s his friend. she’s whip-smart and fun to banter with. he asks charlotte to go to the show with him for exactly the reason he later states to her: he thinks it will be something different, an interesting pop culture adventure for two scientists to embark on.

her powers of observation have always impressed him, so she’ll make good company at an event like this one.

he is vaguely aware that an unrelated man and a woman attending a public event together can be construed as a date, and he isn’t opposed to thinking of it that way or of allowing charlotte to do so herself. to him, there is a difference between going on one date and being “involved.” 

(involvement implies an emotional connection and devotion that he doesn’t have with anyone but sara.)

he really doesn’t intend or expect for this one event to turn into a ~thing~. he also doesn’t suppose that all dates have to be romantic or that this date carries with it any expectation for intimacy. he’s old-fashioned. he’s not looking to kiss charlotte or take her home with him. he just wants to converse with her and pick her brain about correspondent accidental symbolism and meaning-making.

of course, since he doesn’t want a repeat of what happened with catherine, in asking charlotte, he extends a blanket invitation first—i.e., “would you honor me with your company next friday night?”—and only tells her it’s the pink floyd thing after she actually says yes.

what he doesn’t realize is that charlotte has had a thing for him ever since she started at the lab. he’s kind of got this silverfox charm going on, and he’s so mysterious. she’s been playing her best flirt game with him for months, trying to be witty and forthcoming and send him all the right signals, so when he makes his invitation, she thinks all her hard work has finally paid off, and they’re really going to connect.

unfortunately for her, grissom spends the whole night paying attention to how the songs match up with the visual cues. never once does he try to get “on base”—not even when she purposefully leans up against him during “us and them.” hell, he doesn’t even try to hold her hand! occasionally, he asks her if she caught this or that lyrical allusion and points out that some stanford study describes people’s willingness to adhere to discredited notions as a form of psychological preservation of the self and world-schemas, but he seems oblivious to the fact that, if she had her way, they’d be rounding third in the back seat by now.

she has a terrible time, not only because he ignores her but because she can’t stand pink floyd. he has a great time because he gets to see his show, and charlotte ultimately agrees with him that the coincidental synchronicity between the film and the album is less than remarkable.

(postulate debunked!)

grissom doesn’t think anything more of the adventure until charlotte brings it up a few weeks later. it’s only then he realizes that he disappointed her. he’s not quite sure what to do about her disappointment, as, honestly, he has no intention to ask her on another date. 

the trouble completely slips his mind when the holly gribbs debacle busts wide open—and especially because, even after everything’s settled, charlotte eventually switches to day shift, and he doesn’t have reason to talk to her much anymore, especially considering that sara’s moved to town.

while the above conjecture is focused on charlotte meridian specifically (as she is the only non-sara "female companion" we know grissom has between 1998-2000), i believe the same principles outlined for this scenario would apply to any other potential dates grissom might go on—if there are any—during this same era, as well.

it wouldn't be a deal where grissom was super attracted to some other woman than sara and wanted to have sex with her or commence a committed romantic relationship.

it wouldn't even be a thing where he was trying to distract himself from sara or "fill the void" without her, either.

it would just be a thing where he'd be looking for a social companion for a particular event and so asked someone on a (completely chaste) one-off date.

and because he and sara aren't technically themselves dating at this point and have no expectation for monogamy, he wouldn't feel any degree of guilt in what he was doing or feel the need to justify it were she to somehow find out.

"involvement" is different than just going on a date with someone, in his mind.

and, besides, it's not like he was going to sleep with this other woman anyway or likely even ever go out with her again.

he would presume sara was probably doing similar things on her end (i.e., that she occasionally was going out with other guys aside from him)—and though that thought wouldn't necessarily please him, he'd be resigned enough about it, because, really, what other choice would he have?

for as long as they weren't actually together and couldn't be because of the distance, they'd both just have to keep "living their lives," you know?

it'd be unreasonable to expect both of them to never spend time with another person even though they weren't technically together.

of course, all of the above said, getting back to the 2000-2005 era of grissom's life, i do think that once sara moves to vegas and after her and grissom's relationship dynamic starts changing around mid-s1, grissom's approach to dating other women besides her does change, at least for a while.

again, teri miller is his only confirmed non-sara romantic companion from this time (as it is uncertain, per canon, whether he has ever had a romantic relationship with heather kessler or not).

so just focusing on teri miller, she is definitely meant to be a distraction from sara.

—and, indeed, it is noteworthy to me that within the universe of the show, grissom asks teri out in episode 01x14 "to have and to hold" only about a week after the events of episode 01x13 "boom."

to me, that choice on his part suggests panic, like he spends the serial bombing case working in very close proximity with sara, basically treating the investigation as if it were a date with her, but then he realizes what he is doing, freaks out (because by this point he knows that he and sara can't be together, despite finally living in the same state; not if they want to keep their jobs), and, in an effort to convince himself that he isn't actually still hung up on the her, he asks another woman out as soon as the opportunity to do so presents itself to him.

even so, while grissom does go through the phase of trying to distract himself from sara during s1, i think he very quickly gives up on it, not only because he blows things with teri after just one half of their first date but also because (deep down) he recognizes the futility of the exercise.

his heart is still with sara, and no amount of seeing other people will change the fact that it is, so why bother trying to date anyone who isn't her?

better to just focus on trying to resign himself to the fact that he and sara can't be together, you know?

anyway.

rambling now.

suffice it to say, i think that the best way to view grissom's relationships with other women between 1998-2000 is through the lens of him seeking social companionship, and the best way to view his relationships with other women between 2000-2005 is through the lens of him trying to distract himself from sara (whom he believes he can never have).

however, the bottom line in both cases is that no matter whom he may go out to dinner with, his heart is ultimately always with sara, and he realizes as much.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[izzyliker]

i swear like 85% of the meta i see on here would actually have disastrous implications for the overall text and the writer of the meta clearly never stopped to consider that meta of a single character or a single scene doesn’t exist in isolation but fundamentally affects how the entire work reads. like you can’t say “that scene where the navy releases ed to izzy is supposed to read as izzy buying ed” without it fundamentally adding like. profound racial trauma to ed’s story arc in a way that is completely tonally discordant with the rest of the portrayals of racist violence (in that in every single other case of racial violence the violence is immediately responded to and the perpetrators punished), without it meaning that white writers wrote an episode where that kind of intensely traumatic and dehumanizing act happens, without it meaning that ed has been for the entire show and precanon for however long izzy has been working for him been constantly exposed to racism way beyond the scope of “clueless white person that isn’t working on it” (unless you think “literally treats moc like a commodity” is just a normal non-malicious passively racist thing to do) and how that affects his character and his relationship with izzy and how him choosing to keep izzy around affects how he’s characterized, without it meaning that the statements about not wanting to turn racial or homophobic violence and trauma into a significant overarching part of the story despite being present in the world are either a lie or a massive oversight where the writers and actors including the actors of color who have praised the writers for listening to their opinions and ideas somehow didn’t realize the implications… like there’s analyzing media at face value and drawing connections to real life or the implications one can find where reading scenes at face value is helpful in finding larger social patterns, and then there’s making meta that assumes that things were intentional and meant to be read that way. like what does it add to the actual text of the story to interpret izzy as a malignant racist other than disproportionate (to the amount of violence faced by every other character) amounts of trauma to ed specifically, trauma that no other character has to live with every single day, that apparently is normal enough that he doesn’t even react to it at all? a character that ed chooses repeatedly to keep around despite this violence that he’s apparently completely desensitized to? a portrayal of racism that DOESNT get called out ever despite every other instance being immediately identified and presented with zero ambiguity or leeway to the perpetrators? like to me that would make the show worse, not “nuanced” or “subtle” when the show is never otherwise subtle or nuanced about racial or homophobic violence. it would single out ed as someone whose closest relationship pre stede is one of if not outright violence then racist micro aggressions, and where ed is uncharacteristically helpless to stop it despite him repeatedly showing that he’s ready and willing to kill and otherwise get rid of people who disrespect him let alone are racist or classist towards him.

[ajkal2]

the essay: childhood trauma, responsibility, and tma. part 1: jon

in a tma fic i published like six months ago, i left an authors note that promised an essay on jon and tim’s trauma to anyone who asked. several people asked, and so here i am!

the fic is called a deeply annoying child. it’s about being a kid and seeing something horrible, and it’s about jon and tim’s rocky relationship. 

this post isn’t actually about the fic. it’s a breakdown of jon’s mental state through s1-3. im going to make another post about tim, and then a final one linking it all back to the fic. i’ll chuck links to those on here when they’re posted!

but first, let’s talk about my boy, JON ‘JARCHIVIST’ SIMS.  

(fair warning- this isn’t a fully backed up meta post, it’s my interpretation of canon. any thoughts/queries/additions welcome! my askbox is always open <3) 

part o: a note on guilt

hey, you know what’s fucked up? an eight-year-old kid with survivors guilt. 

as a child, jon watched someone he knew die, due to circumstances that, while they were not his fault, were set in motion by his actions. children (and often teens!) think in black-and-white. complex logic often just doesn’t occur to them.  jon, at 8, looks at what happened, and says that’s my fault. i did that. jon didn’t like his bully, and wanted him to go away, and then he did. that instinctive reaction is something i think he never grows out of. when you already hate yourself, it’s easy to pile more fuel onto that flame.  he doesn’t think about risk, not to him, because he deserves whatever happens. he let someone die. he doesn’t ever forgive himself for that.

part i: belief (precanon+s1)

now, i have a headcanon about why jon doesn’t believe statement givers, and imma lay it all out for you right here. 

when jon was 8, and freshly traumatised, i think he tried to tell someone what happened. beneath all the layers, jon is compassionate, and tries to help people. now, picture this. a kid, one with a history of troubled behaviour and an atypical home life, goes up to someone (a police officer, his carer, a teacher) and tells them a giant spider ate someone. what’s that person, someone who is a rational adult, someone who doesn’t believe in silly things, going to say back? are they going to believe that kid? 

no. no way. they’re going to tell that kid that they’re making up stories, that they had a nightmare, that they should stop making jokes about someone who actually disappeared, jon, you need to be more sensitive about these things. 

now, that kind of dissonance- ‘this did happen, it was real’ and ‘everyone i talk to is telling me it’s not real’- is hard on adults. to a kid? devastating. 

jon, because he’s jon, would have been desperately searching for a way to explain this, and i think the thing he grabs on to is evidence. if he had some evidence of what happened, if he could prove what happened, people would believe him.*

but he doesn’t have evidence. and he resents that, and he resents that so much that by the time he’s an adult he’s settled into a mindset towards the supernatural somewhat akin to ‘i didn’t get believed, but you think you should be believed? what’s so good about you? you think you’re better than me?** fuck you! i don’t believe you!’   this is also a way of keeping himself safe. if the monsters aren’t real, they can’t hurt him.

and then, through s1, that mindset is chipped at. the statement givers start being real people, who come into jon’s office and cry when he dismisses them, and that clearly makes him uncomfortable. martin gives his statement, and martin has evidence. jon knows martin, and knows that he’s a good person, so martin having evidence isn’t likely to be an attack at jon. 

jane prentiss attacks the institute, and then suddenly jon’s shield of denial and anger is ripped away, because the monsters are real, and they can hurt him. 

*would they? i don’t know. people can be very attached to believing that the world is good, and kids are misguided, and there are a hundred thousand ways to explain away a piece of evidence, as jon comes to know well. 

** this ties into jon’s self hatred, as people saying they are better than him kicks him right in the Issues. 

part ii: paranoia (s2)

after prentiss attacks, jon is left floundering. his old I Do Not See It mindset has been smashed to pieces, and underneath all the trauma he’s been brutally suppressing is bubbling up. jon has no real experience in judging threats, because for the last 20 years he’s been burying his head in the sand and yelling he can’t see any threats. so he overcompensates, and assumes everything is a threat. his experience re:not being believed tells him that everyone around him is stupid and wrong and the only person he can rely on is himself.  

so he investigates. he’s convinced that his life is in imminent danger, that everyone around him is plotting to kill him. he doesn’t hold back, because you don’t hold back in a life-or-death scenario.  he knows something is wrong. something is very wrong. he’s sure it’s a threat to him, a threat to his life. but he can’t put a finger on what it is.

this is when his friendship with tim breaks down. i’ll talk about tim in a minute. 

jon spirals, and obsesses, and wrings answers out of the ether until it all falls together. he understands what is wrong, that it’s sasha that wants him dead. or, well, not sasha. he’s been winding up tighter and tighter all series, and he lets loose by striking out, acting for once instead of reacting. it is remarkably easy to buy an axe in central london, after all.

and then, well, that doesn’t go well. 

 part iii: desperation (s3)

after what jon did backfired so badly, he goes to georgie, because he has no other option. and he thinks, what went wrong? and the answer he comes up with is i didn’t know enough.* that’s why it all went wrong, because he didn’t know what he was dealing with. and so the solution is to find out more.

he’s starting to realise that he’s changing.** he wants to find out more about that as well, to control it. 

so he goes and finds out more. or, tries to. he doesn’t have many leads.*** jon is not good at judging threat, and doesn’t know the danger he is putting himself in. he’s stubborn, and locked onto getting more knowledge like a dog and a bone.****

and then he does get more knowledge, but it’s the knowledge that the world is ending, and he’s the only one who can fix it.***** he can’t process his trauma. he doesn’t have time. the world is ending. 

in late s3, jon is desperate. he’s overworking himself. he feels alone: daisy’s at his throat, elias is dangling information over his head, tim... 

we’ll talk about tim later. 

basira doesn’t trust him, georgie isn’t happy with him, melanie’s never liked him. he gets kidnapped for a month, and no one notices. the only person jon has firmly in his corner is martin.****** and he doesn’t have time to talk to martin, because he’s getting kidnapped, and jetting across the world chasing shadows, and desperately, desperately trying not to fuck everything up again. 

and he doesn’t! they build a plan. it’s dangerous, sure, but jon doesn’t even know what that means anymore. his whole life is dangerous. jon going into the unknowing is cautiously, waveringly hopeful. maybe this time it won’t go wrong. this time they know what to do, they know what they’re dealing with. 

and, the tragedy is, it doesn’t go wrong. they save the world. they send elias to prison. it all goes to plan. and tim is dead, and daisy is buried, and jon is lost in dreams. 

*👁️ **👁️ ***👁️ ****👁️  ***** he’s not the only one, of course, there are a whole team of people working on stopping the Unknowing, but jon is the Archivist. he’s the heir to gertrude’s legacy. 

****** this is where they fall in love, after all. which is a good thing, of course, but it adds an extra weight to every interaction they have, guessing and double-guessing how the other feels, until jon actually can’t talk to martin, not how he wants to, because he’s not sure if they’re there yet. (martin is there. jon doesn’t have time to be.) 

see yall next time 

i would like to cover s4 and s5, but this post is 1.5k already, and i’ve covered up to when the fic takes place! next time i will be ranting incoherently about timothy stoker, punctuated by bursts on uncontrollable sobbing. when that’s up, i’ll chuck a link here, and on the author notes of the fic i’m doing this for. see you then!

[polysyndetonaddictsupportgroup]

acts of contrition was so aaaaAAAAAAAAAA so hooked, the world could use more jack murdock meta, thank you for writing

I feel like a disproportionate amount of my fanfiction is centered on characters that died precanon and it’s very easy to find voids in meta and fill it

[fedonciadale]

Master meta post

*** Edit: Please check the pinned post on this blog! This post will not be updated anymore as the original owner of the blog, my mother, has passed away.***

Master meta post

So I decided to put together some of my metas/ask posts (that tend to become metas occasionally) for convenience and pin this post.

I have not yet linked all (obviously), but I will revisit this post once in a while and add links...

Also for my numerous ask - evolved into metas I usually added some that I think are representative.

ASOIAF - Bookwise

Meta series on “Singers singing songs and their impact on character in ASOIAF”: part 1: Jon

part 2: Sansa

part 3: Daenerys

part 4: Starks and Lannisters

An ask about Florian and Jonquil (note the excellent additions!)

What is a bittersweet ending? (x, x, x, x)

Meaning of Ice and Fire

GRRM is not a Nihilist

First men and Children of the Forest

Politics in ASOIAF/GoT

Legitimacy of Kings in Westeros

Claim to the throne, right to the throne and the making of Kings

Daenerys and her understanding of history

Marriage annulment

Northern Independence asks (x, x, x)

Food sharing in Westeros

Parallels to Wars of the Roses

Starks

Sibling dynamics: Everyone was the odd one out once in a while

Sansa and Arya (mostly answers to Did Sansa bully Arya? (x, x)

Succession in the North: Was Sansa disinherited (x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x)

Septa Mordane

Dragons vs. direwolves

Targaryens

Would Jon on the throne mean a Targ restoration?

Why did the Targs practice incest and what are the political repercussions?

Jon Snow’s Targ name

Shipping:

Jonsa, Jon€rys and the logic of shipping

Shipping and canon shipping

Why is Jonsa hated?

Bulverism

Show rants:

Catfight at Winterhell: rant, asks (x)

Annulment of marriages in the Middle Ages

Daenerys and her understanding of history

Doubts prior to season 8

Circular storytelling

The full cirlce of Westeros

Why the endgame doesn’t make sense: 1 (Bran) , 2 (Tyrion), 3 (Arya), 4 (Sansa), 5 (Jon)

Women:

Women in Westeros and misogyny - Cersei

Women in Westeros and misogyny - Brienne

Sansa and Feminism

Arya and her feminitiy

Catelyn the advisor

Comparison of Jonsa with other ships

Jonsa and Jon€rys (my oldest post, Nov 2016)

In General: Incest, Endogamy, Exogamy, Genetic attraction phenomenon

Cousin marriage in the Middle Ages

In-world opinions on Cousin marriage, Targ incest

Does a Jonerys marriage solve any problems?

Foreshadowing for Jonsa, Jon€rys and J0nrya

Jonerys foreshadowing

Why Jonerys is incompatible

Comparison of Jonsa and Jonerys foreshadowing

What was GRRM’s original idea?

J0nrya and the original outline

So called J0nrya foreshadowing (= Jonsa foreshadowing in disguise)

Will there be a Jon€rys baby? (x, x, x, x, x)

Arya and Jonsa, J0nrya reunion

Political J0nrya marriage after Sansa’s death?

J0nrya as a possibility in books and show

Anti Dany/Jon/Sansa threesome for Targ restoration

Anti Sansan 

Anti Sanrion

Does Jon have a crush on Alys?

Alys Karstark as possible marriage candidate

Sansa Stark

The Trident incident (x, x)

The ‘Horseface’ question

Precanon crush?

Sansa is Jon’s type

Arguments against Sansa and “Rickard Forrester” as a rando last minute love interest

The Broken Tower in Winterfell

Sansa’s ‘betrayal’

Sansa won’t be disfigured

Sansa’s wishes

Sansa and the Northerners

Sansa and Alysanne Parallels

Sansa and Lady

Dany and Sansa as foils

Sansa as the ‘original villain‘

Does Sansa trust Littlefinger?

Is Sweetrobin getting poisoned?

Sansa and Sweetrobin

Ned and Cat

The man who passes the sentence

Was Ned in love with Ashara and did he have sex with her?

Ned and Cat as parents

The Starks value life

Literal tropes:

Relationship tropes in GoT and ASOIAF

Accidental incest and secret parentage and their outcoming

The function of secret parentage in fiction

What even is incest?

Jonsa and Beauty and the Beast

Fairy tales:

The trickster cat

The Bear and the Maiden fair

The Pig boy

Allerleirauh

Comparisons with Tolkien:

Beren and Luthien: part 1, part 2, part 3

Aragorn and Arwen

The Girl in Grey:

Various asks on the Girl in Grey (x, x, x, x, x)

DarkDany stuff

Why conquer Westeros at all?

A Storm that hits

Conquerors landing on the shore

Will Dany die as a saviour?

Questioning sharply (Dany’s descent into darkness)

Dany and politics

Dany’s ‘hero’s journey’

Dany and Galadriel

Setting up Dany as a villain: the Leni Riefenstahl connection (mostly @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir but it started with my ask

Dany is not an abolutionist

Fire and Blood:

Methods of foreshadowing

Alysanne

Jaime

Succession in Fire and Blood

Fire and Blood tidbits

Will Arya kill Dany?

Archmaester Glydaen and his bias

Political Jon

Jon the Player, Jon the Deceiver?

Cersei and Aurane Waters as a parallel to Jon and Da€nerys

Deceiving and Lying Starks

Jon the Negotiator

Jon’s political skill on the show

Starks and their political skills

Asks about Political Jon (x, x, x)

Other:

Jaime Lannister as Hand of the King

Jaime as Hand - Hints in F&B (1, 2)

Tully mud, blood, death and sudden change

Rains of Castamere and the futility of revenge

Stark words and Stark obligations

Parallels to Outlaw King

Crack:

Why we should ship Tormund and Dany

HP Verse:

Everything wrong with the HP verse

Good Slytherins

Internalized misogyny in HP and the girly girl

Is S.P.E.W fake woke?

Grey characters in HP

Classism in the HP verse

Is Draco smart?

Hogwarts sorting: How it should go

JKR’s writing

Arthur Weasley and muggles or classism in HP

On redemption arcs: Draco,

On ships in HP: Fremione and Harmony; Anti Romione

My thoughts on : Ginny, Ron

[esther-dot]

Hi Esther! I love your metas. Regarding lyanna I just find it hard to believe that she run away. First of all, Martin gave her 2 significant quotes to show her mindset and character - love does not change man's nature and Robert would not keep to one bed. This is a hint that she would not have been infatuated with Rhaegar either. I don't think he wrote these quotes as dramatic irony just to show hypocritical a 15 year old can be.

😅

Also if the elopement was planned, she would have run AFTER Brandon's wedding not before.

Forced wedding with Rhaegar is a possibility. However I don't see why it matters weather jon is legitimate. In the show jon needed to be a threat to danys claim, what is the importance of being legitimate in the books? Being a bastard with all the baggage is part of Jon's identity. I feel it will cheapen his character if in the end jon is a true born prince. It's like saying SEE he is not a LOWLY bastard, he's a legitimate PRINCE.

Thank you! I don’t like the idea of Lyanna choosing to run away either, I just think that’s likely given what we know of the characters and what Martin has said. But a lot of people in our corner don’t agree with that, and I reblog that spec too because it makes sense to me. I told @eonweheraldodemanwe that what made me consider the dramatic irony thing was that Jon hates being a bastard, swears he will never father one, and then Martin specifically writes him forgetting to pull out when having sex with Ygritte. So that’s one of the reasons I reconsidered how Martin might choose to write R/L. Not because he wants to yell about teenagers being hypocrites, but because this is how he has written sex/love moving people, specifically Lyanna’s son, in canon. It worries me.

As for Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar, that’s something I started thinking was likely as part of getting Bran on the throne. I know he will be chosen to be king, but it still seems to me that there would be some kind of claim supporting that decision just as Robert had. Also, Jon had parallels with Aemon which also makes it seem likely that he could take the throne if he wanted, but chooses not to and his brother rules instead. So, it isn’t about the idea that Jon can’t be a bastard, but about the repetition of precanon things in canon. Or, perhaps more accurately, Martin foreshadowing what will happen in canon when writing about pre-canon events. Obviously, we don’t know yet, but that’s the idea.

It makes no difference to me if Jon is or isn’t a bastard,  but I think the idea of finding out he isn’t Ned’s son is more  interesting if the revelation is that he doesn’t have to be what he has hated being all his life (bastard), but that love for his family means he rejects that identity and that claim. The idea of him choosing to be a Snow would only have impact if he can choose to be something else, something (according to their society) better, and he decides he’d rather be the bastard.

I began thinking about the possibility of him not being a bastard when I was looking at some Jonsa stuff.

"Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf's leavings, but as he never touched you . . . How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?"

The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now. "I . . . can scarcely wait to meet him, my lady. But he is still a child, is he not?"

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying. I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know that your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding, to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us the word from King's Landing once the Imp's head rolls. (ASOS, Sansa VI)

The next chapter is a Jon chapter and because of the highlighted bits, this feels like foreshadowing for a Jonsa marriage, but Sansa has parallels with Lyanna,  and it makes sense to me that Lyanna may have married Rhaegar secretly, just as Sansa may marry Jon secretly because of how he likes to repeat things. That idea occurred to me when I was reading the Jaime chapter before it:

When he was gone, the Lord Commander sat alone in the white room, wondering. The Knight of Flowers had been so mad with grief for Renly that he had cut down two of his own Sworn Brothers, but it had never occurred to Jaime to do the same with the five who had failed Joffrey. He was my son, my secret son . . . What am I, if I do not lift the hand I have left to avenge mine own blood and seed? He ought to kill Ser Boros at least, just to be rid of him. (ASOS, Jaime VIII)

It isn’t conclusive, but that’s a phrase that isn’t used anywhere else, and since we know Rhaegar also had a secret son (Jon), I wondered if the secret wedding in the Sansa chapter was also something to be attributed to Rhaegar. It seemed odd to emphasize Joffrey’s parentage now when we’ve known since AGOT about Jaime and Cersei. So, I wondered if those chapters in succession were indicating something about Jon’s origins and because R+L=J stuff pops up a lot in Sansa chapters.

And then of course, the secret marriage idea is something that is referenced in Targ history:

Perhaps envious, after two years as Hand—and the birth to his brother of yet another daughter, Vaella, who died as an infant—Maegor shocked the realm in 39 AC by announcing that he had taken a second wife—Alys of House Harroway—in secret. He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I)

Another option is that Rhaegar legitimized him or that Lyanna thought they were married even if they weren’t:

His last act before his death, all accounts agree, was to set out his will. And in it, he left the bitterest poison the realm ever knew: he legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth.

(deleted stuff)

While riding near Fairmarket in 155, Aegon's horse threw a shoe, and when he sought out the local smith, he came to notice the man's young wife. He went on to buy her for seven gold dragons (and the threat of Ser Joffrey Staunton of the Kingsguard). Megette was installed in a house in King's Landing; she and Aegon were even "wed" in a secret ceremony conducted by a mummer playing a septon. (The World of Ice and Fire -The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV)

So, there is also the possibility that he is a bastard as you suggest and that Lyanna was tricked into thinking she was Rhaegar’s second wife. I’m not sure that’s the story, maybe it really is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, the secret wedding/secret son could be about Jonsa not R+L=J, but the options presented in Targ history really make me think there’s another element to this. Basically, I’m not really convinced on anything specific, there’s just a lot of stuff that makes me raise my eyebrows.

Also, I had started writing about this from another angle in a different post that I’ve lost in my drafts somewhere, but another issue is, Jon faces certain temptations. He rejected legitimacy/Winterfell because it belongs to Sansa, but he will find out about Robb’s will and face that temptation again. It makes sense to me that he is offered another legitimacy and inheritance as the third temptation to continue his struggle.

Thanks for the message!