#mentally ill people (including cluster b!) are more likely to be VICTIMS of abuse and violence than abusers themselves.

[vaelylis]

while everyone is here if you believe in "narcissistic abuse", general "cluster b abuse" or refer to people as narcissists you can unfollow me because literally those people can go fuck themselves 😭

[ereemos]

my not-so-comprehensive list (very personal 3am opinion) on books about how to deal with someone with bpd (i’m sure this is applicable to other conditions)

it’s very difficult to deal with a mentally ill oved one, and no matter how much suffering they’re in, the pain it causes those around them is not to be discounted.

this pain can stem from not understanding certain behaviours, fear for their loved one’s wellbeing, seeing someone act violently towards others or themselves, powerlessness, etc.

i whole heartedly believe that these people deserve support too, and that their experience is valid and important to verbalise.

either way, sometimes this can be taken to the extreme, where the person suffering for their loved one starts feeling like “the real victim” and this creates extra stigma, this post being about bpd, an already incredibly stigmatised disorder (both in and out of the medical community).

how do i support my loved one with bpd, or find resources to help myself get through this situation, or understand my loved one better, without falling for evil-bpd-manipulator-woman-propaganda?

look no further! i’ve read enough bpd self help book for loved ones, to be able to tell you what to look out for. i’m sure there’s good ones out there, haven’t seen a single one though ! hah! (only because my mum buys them btw, i promise they exist)

WHAT TO LOOK OUT FOR … in a shitty book

- “most cases of bpd are caused by childhood trauma, but not your child, you are a good parent” books that use this sort of language seem more like they’re trying to reassure someone who is, most likely, a contributing factor to their child’s bpd

when the book is more about self help than it is about therapy… any book framed as self help, i’d stray from. you are not qualified to talk about bpd in this setting.

when the actual victim seems to be treated as an abuser, or written about like an annoying ex who won’t stop texting you, miiight be a sign someone doesn’t care about how people are treated, just wants to make their readers like they need a cuddle.

when they start talking about wanting to expand bpd criteria and diagnosing bpd in minors - why are you talking about this in a self help book - you’re spreading medical misinformation by mixing official diagnostic criteria with your own personal (BIASED) theories, seems like every patient you don’t like has bpd…

w hen the main “how to help a bpd sufferer” is just “give up on trying to help them, they’ll never amount to anything, think about yourself” HUH

too much personal judgement . you’re writing about a disorder .

look at the authors bibliography! are they self help authors who have written nothing other than “how to leave your ex boyfriend behind” “how to be happy in 10 steps” or maybe actual doctors whose mainstream published works include “how my bpd wife ruined my life” “the real victims of bpd” etc???

personal pet peeve, but people talk about bpd patients as only being women. rubs me the wrong way, especially, with the bod/hysteria parallels.

emphasis on either fixing the patient or cutting ties with them/ letting them live an unfulfilling life “because that’s just how they are”

(tl;dr keep away from self help books, as a society we have moved past the need of self help book-capitalism--self-affirming-pseudo therapy)

RESOURCES TO HELP YOURSELF OR A LOVED ONE WITH BPD

DBT !!! there’s so many free resources out there, exercises, pdfs etc, its really worth looking into!

research BPD on your own, looking at multiple sources, both medical and personal experiences, and remember that if you’ve been abused by someone with a cluster b personality disorder, that doesn’t make everyone with the same illness a monster

readings that emphasise on how to deal with situations (still, DBT is useful for this), how to de-escalate a meltdown by behaving empathetically, protecting your peace and your loved one’s, rather than trying to “fix” them.

it is important to hold people accountable for their actions: people with bpd are people, not just victims. Having tough conversations w sufferers can be hard. consider contacting an actual therapist, when things are too much to handle.

there is no shame in going no contact if the person is genuinely abusive, or dealing w them is beyond your abilities. you are not their psychiatrist.

keep in mind that psychology and psychiatry and constantly evolving, and what is a diagnosis today may be laughable in 10 years time ! (just look at the history of bpd)

this post was specifically written for my mother but i just had to put it out there i hate self help books i hate them it’s so much worse than telling me “have you tried yoga?” because yoga actually helps, unlike self help books, which are making psychology and mental illness a big soup of buzzwords to pick out and capitalise on! hmm what will it be today? narcissistic abuse? how to handle your autistic child? soooo sick and tired . stop making money off of me. give me money if you want but stop exploiting disordered individuals.

thanks for reading, sorry for the long post/ramble, it’s 3am

[violentviolette]

(Part 1) Hi! I have a question and I hope this doesn't come across as ignorant or rude in anyway! So, I've been dealing with mental health problems for a very long time. About 6 or 7 years ago, when I was like 16, I found out about PD's. I /heavily/ to both avpd and bpd, but I've never brought it up to doctors, for many reasons. I'm being treated for anxiety and depression, ocd and an eating disorder. The thing is, even after all these years, avpd and bpd just seem to fit better to me. The thing is though, I don't have a traumatic childhood. I know you've talked about pd's being trauma based (at least cluster b pds), but do you think there is anyway for them to develop without trauma?

(Part 2) I'm NOT asking for a diagnosis, and I'm very aware that many mental illness symptoms overlap and maybe avpd and bpd seem like they fit me but it is actually something else, just something similar. Or maybe I have avpd but relate to some bpd traits.So I'm not looking for any diagnosis at all, I'm just curious about your thoughts on the development of PDs without trauma, or at least the development of symptoms that are very similar to PDs in the absence of trauma?

anon with peace and love, uve absolutely undergone trauma and childhood abuse.

people do not develop mental illness in a vacuum, the issues u listed, even without the pds, mean u have absolutely been abused. things like anxiety, depression, ocd and eating disorders do not develop in healthy people who had well adjusted, healthy and loving childhoods, especially if they developed during adolescence. like factually they just do not

every single person I've ever met who had trauma, including myself, thought that we didn't at first. every single victim denies their trauma, downplays it, doesn't see it and can't admit it. so much so that that is a genuine criteria that therapists look for. no one who was abused during childhood thinks they were, genuinely

I dont know ur specific circumstance obviously, but I think if u start really looking into childhood abuse, cptsd, and other things ull realize more and more that what u went through probably was not normal or healthy. abuse is so much more than what people assume, its not just hitting and beatings and screaming and violence. childhood abuse and neglect take so many forms, and things that seem completely "normal" and innocuous can have deep traumatizing lifelong consequences

just because ur experience wasn't extreme, doesn't mean it wasn't traumatic for u. because genuinely if u are having the symptoms that u are, u have undergone childhood trauma, there is genuinely no other explanation for what ur experiencing

[lordiavoloremade]

i see you posting about the heard v depp case but honestly i have no idea what happened(?) can you tell me what's going on? (very briefly, no need to say the whole deal if you don't feel like it) i don't even know who's in the wrong now. all i know is that people who are making memes out of this are dumb

this is going to be really short (and i HIGHLY suggest checking out the original sources and deciding for yourself because even if you trust me i am just a stranger on the internet and have my own biases, so dont take everything i say as gospel) this is pretty quickly summed up and i may have missed somethings, so i highly reccomend getting more than just my voice as a source. also if you or any of my followers just want to ignore this i totally understand and respect that, and this post is not to put pressure on anyone to post about my views on the case, just to inform those who would like to hear.

in 2016 amber heard wrote an article about her experiences w dv and did not name depp but it was assumed. she had mass support in the beginning and this was right before the start of the metoo movement. flash forward to now where depp has chosen to publically engage in a defamation trial (he purposefully went to virginia to do this case, in order for it to be livestreamed. its pretty impossible to win a case as a public figure for defamation, so his goal here isnt to get a verdict its to destroy heard and further tramuatize her in what is known as litigation abuse). now because people have been looking for an excuse to not believe metoo for a while, everyone and their mother has hoped onto johnny depps dick despite all of the evidence supporting all of amber heards claims. this is a guy who did blackface in the 2010s, and sent texts to his friend saying he wanted to murder and r*pe heards dead body. yet people believe that amber heard is a "narccisisitic" (people with cluster b mental illnesses are more likely to be hurt by others but whatever) female abuser and depp is their poor innocent male victim. if you try to say he isnt a victim of dv and is the perpetrator people tell you youre not supporting male victims even though he is not a victim (abusers will often use the "you were the abuser" tactic). most people who are on depps side are getting their information from youtubers (who have no qualifications, this INCLUDES people who are talking about body language like its a science, its not) and tiktoks (even worse). if you look at the evidence (i will link an article and a video below) all of it shows heard is innocent, and all shes guilty of is fighting back when she was being physically attacked. to make it worse depps fans have been attacking anyone (i guarentee you ill get more depp anons after this) who disagrees with the notion that depp is an abuser. his team is using unjust tactics like withess intimidation, to sway things to their side. as a victim of abuse i feel really passionately and horrifed by what i am seeing so thats why i post so much about it.

overall people just want another gabby petito. a pretty thin young dead white woman, because if youre anything else than the world doesnt see you as the victim.

sources:

https://youtu.be/Ec7o2uJeFDE

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/05/modern-celebrity-fandom-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629887/

blogs that im following regarding this case:

@justiceamberheard @valkyriesexual @bisexualbonnet

you can also check out my "depp heard case /" tag which has everything ive rbd so far. just make sure youre on my blog and click the tag below this post to get there.

[ablednt]

@ashireiko (I suggest folks with aspd block them as they’re unsafe for y’all rn)

Replying before I delete ur comment but regardless of if you think I’m a good or bad person here are some facts

-Cluster B personality disorders including ASPD (what sociopath refers to) are trauma disorders. They’re literally caused by abuse. You’re saying that the vast majority of the abuse survivor community are abusers themselves bc most of us have these mental illnesses.

-You can have ASPD and never abuse anyone. You can do good things without empathy and in my experience as someone with hyper empathy it’s honestly more of a detriment than some moral high-ground. It’s literally just another way to exist. There is nothing about ASPD/Sociopathy that makes it inherently abusive.

-I’m not saying you weren’t abused. I’m sure you have legitimate trauma and pain from your ex but if your ex was Autistic would you say you were a victim of Autistic Abuse? My father was autistic and it contributed to his abuse of me, my mother has depression and chronic pain and that influenced her abusing me but I have the common sense to know that none of those things = abusers.

-In any kind of “sociopathic abuse” “narcissistic abuse” “BPD abuse” the behaviors described are literally emotional abuse. It’s the same exact behavior from a neurotypical abuser as it is from someone with mental illness because abuse is abuse. Abuse is a choice it isn’t an illness, no contributing factors = the abuse itself.

Look I get it, psychologists realized they could make money by equating Cluster B personality disorders with abusers so they could sell more books about it and society values academia and disvalues abuse survivors so you think you’re somehow validated by targeting your ex’s mental illness. This is still ableism, this is still wrong.

Think if you did this for literally any other marginalized group. Plenty of academics throughout history have said that lesbians are inherently predatory and abusive, but if someone now were to say they were a victim of lesbianism and rely on lesbophobic stereotypes in order to get straight people to sympathize with their pain at being abused by one specific person, this would be lesbophobic and wrong to do.

So, you’re an abuse survivor, that’s valid. But you’re being ableist as all shit and unless you want to be harmful and abusive to your own goddamn community (see: the vast fucking majority of the abuse survivor community has a cluster B disorder. There’s literally more of us than of you lol) then you need to accept that, move on, learn to validate yourself without punching down at people more vulnerable than you. Until you can learn to coexist with people who have done absolutely nothing to you and who are every bit as hurt as you then you have no place in the community, go rot with the nts who hate all of us until you can learn to act like a normal goddamn person K?

[amydataenthusiast]

The perpetual stain

Data Management and Visualization: First Assignment

Codebook: NESARC

Data set: Personality disorders (feelings and behaviour)

Topic #1: Is there an association between the high level of admission to an unspecified crime, and the low level of admission to sex crime, in particular ?

Variables chosen for Topic #1:

Hypothesis based on Topic  #1:

The association between the high level of admission to an unspecified crime and the low level of admission to a sex crime in particular can be answered by looking into the personality traits that make up the different Personality Disorders. Sex crimes are still taboo, and are the most under-reported crime worldwide. This is because they carry a social burden, for both the victim and the perpetrator. It’s easier to say “yes” to a crime that will remain unknown, than it is to say “yes” specifically to rape. My hypothesis is that the participants won’t admit a sex crime because they either do not have the emotional coping mechanisms to deal with the judgment that comes with it, or because they are acutely aware of the potential consequences that may arise from admitting a crime that is so sensitive to society, so they manipulate the information accordingly. 

Topic #2: What information can we infer from the personality traits listed in the variables below and the hypothesis in Topic #1?

Participants in the NESARC were much more willing to admit other violent crimes, even the ones that could have ended up in someone being killed. In the variables below you can find two things: 1) How people with a PD feel,  and 2) how people with a PD behave. 

These variables support the idea that certain PD desperately seek approval, and therefore cannot have someone see them as a predator, and, on the other hand, the variables show how the participants admit to have committed other crimes worthy of jail time.

Variables chosen for Topic #2:

Let’s start by defining what a Personality Disorder is: 

A personality disorder is a type of mental disorder in which you have an unhealthy pattern of thinking, functioning and behaving. A person with a personality disorder has trouble perceiving and relating to situations and people. According to the DSM-IV (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) , there are 10 types of Personality Disorders:

Paranoid personality disorder

Schizoid personality disorder

Schizotypal personality disorder

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD)

Borderline personality disorder (BPD)

Histrionic personality disorder

Narcissistic personality disorder

Avoidant (or anxious) personality disorder

Dependent personality disorder

Obsessive compulsive personality disorder (OCDP)

These 10 PD types are grouped into three clusters:

Cluster A personality disorders are characterized by odd, eccentric thinking or behavior. They include paranoid personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder and schizotypal personality disorder.

Cluster B personality disorders are characterized by dramatic, overly emotional or unpredictable thinking or behavior. They include antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.

Cluster C personality disorders are characterized by anxious, fearful thinking or behavior. They include avoidant personality disorder, dependent personality disorder and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.

Now that we have a better grasp of what a Personality Disorder is, let’s see how they are linked to the variables in Topic #2 . Below you’ll find extracts from the DSM-IV itself. Although all this information is arguably useful, most relevant information has been highlighted, for better understanding. 

Not all PD meet the criteria for this assignment, because not all of them have paranoid or manipulative traits. But according to the NESARC, the most prevalent personality disorder in the general population is obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, 7.88% (95% CI = 7.43 to 8.33), followed by paranoid personality disorder 4.41% (95% CI = 4.12 to 4.70) and antisocial personality disorder 3.63% (95% CI = 3.34 to 3.92). Most of the people participating in the NESARC fall in a PD that fits this assignment. 

Let’s talk about the link between these PD traits and sex crimes in particular. In the report, participants were much more willing to admit to crimes that do not carry a social burden. Here are those variables:

These crimes put people in actual danger. These crimes can cripple for life or even kill someone. These crimes signify enormous loss of money for the destruction of private and public property. These crimes are punishable by law, and are subjected to severe sentences. Yet, they were willing to accept their behavior. Why? Because it’s a lot easier to say you forged somebody’s signature or that you set their house on fire, than it is to say you forced them to have sex with you. 

Let’s look at those variables showing feeling or attitude more closely:

These variables show a paranoid approach to living. As if there’s someone always out to get you. A weakness of character, the need to be liked. So much so, that they won’t engage in certain situation unless they are sure they are “approved”. These are the Paranoid, the Avoidant, the Dependent, the Border.

On the other hand, you’ve got people who don’t care:

These are the Narcissistic, the Antisocial. The ones are that hold themselves in such high regard or hold everybody else in such low regard (or both) that they don’t care about judgment. What they care about is to get what they want. And they do so by manipulation. They will say and do whatever the situation requires, with no remorse about their actions, whatsoever.

Let’s go back now to the variables in Topic #1:

The number of participants saying “yes” to having done something worthy of jail (although, conveniently unknown) is similar to those, for example, in:

S11AQ1A14, S11AQ1A15.S11AQ1A16, S11AQ1A20.

Yet, the number the participants saying “yes”, to a specific crime, only this time not arson or robbery, but a sex crime, is notoriously different. Why is that?

There’s something really ominous about a sex crime. The dehumanizing nature of it, of accessing someone’s body without their consent, where you no longer have sovereignty over your own self. Sex offenders carry a life sentence, even if they’re roaming the streets. Think of the terms in which we refer to them: “pervert”, “depraved”, “deviant”, “predator”. All semantically doomed. How many names do we have for thieves? 

A sex crime is the scarlet letter of crimes. Stigmatizing, scarring, infamous. A permanent stain of social verdict. A sort of cattle branding, because now you’re less than human. You’re barely even a mammal anymore. You’re an alien, an outcast, a stranger. A shameful reminder of our darkest nature. Socially demoted to a class B citizen. You lost your place in the kinship, because nobody can trust you anymore.  

Outcasts among the outcasts. According to the Netherlands Institute for the Study of Crime and Law Enforcement: “...the empirical literature revealed that prison officers, police officers, and psychologists were found to report an overall negative attitude toward the inmates convicted for a sex offense (Higgins & Ireland, 2009; Hogue, 1993; Ricciardelli & Moir, 2013). Higgins and Ireland (2009) even found that compared with the general public and forensic staff, prison officers held the most negative attitudes toward the sex offenders”.

There’s a narrative that comes with being a sex offender. According to a research article from the University of California, “...articles use child victims as a rhetorical tool to emphasize the “predatory” nature of offenders and justify retributory violence or harsh legal punishment against sexual predators”.

Society as a whole made a contract with its “healthy” members (meaning everybody who has a illness or a PD that does not include a sex paraphilia or “deviation”).  According to the Institute for Psychological Therapies, there are myths that surround the sex offender. One of them being “that sex offending behavior, especially that of a "sexual predator" or compulsive offender, represents a defective value system, amorality and/or volitional choice to engage in a deviant lifestyle, rather than an expression of an underlying sexual disorder of psychoneurological origin. This myth persists despite the fact that, other than drug addiction and kleptomania, compulsive sex offending is the only criminal behavior which is specifically listed as a psychiatric disorder by the American Psychiatric Association in their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders, Edition IV (American Psychiatric Association, 1994). Treatment programs exist predicated upon the belief that such behavior is attributable to psychiatric disorder; that no one would choose to be a pedophile, for example (given the social execration and criminal sanctions associated with such behavior). Despite the social and personal costs of sexual victimization, and the financial costs associated with apprehending and incarcerating offenders, there is virtually no funding available for treatment programs for sex offenders. The assumption that sex offenders choose their deviant lifestyles negates the need for funding treatment programs since the assumption is that you can't treat that which is a voluntary choice”.

Sex crimes are the most under-reported crime worldwide. According to the National Sexual Violence Research Center, 63% of crimes go unreported. Compare these reports made by RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network). 

People with a PD that have a desperate need of approval, could not possibly endure the heavy load that comes with admitting rape. The worst stigma, burned into their foreheads and their police record. More so considering that much minor, everyday actions, not even criminal, make them supremely uncomfortable and terrified of judgement, or how they look to everybody else. On the other hand, people with the suspicious/paranoid/manipulative traits as part of their “repertoire”, would never give away such sensitive information, for fear of the potential consequences that may arise from it. They give information on a “need-to-know-basis”, and will censor or manipulate it, depending on what they want to achieve. In this case, they want to be sure this does not come to get them. Which is a perfect strategy considering that, according to the information found on the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC) website, “these data sets are not truly anonymous". 

Conclusion: The variables in Topic #1 show an enormous difference of crime admission because admitting to a crime that is unknown is much safer that admitting a sex crime, with the social stigma that that entails. Because of that social stigma, participants that require approval from their peers cannot cope with the idea of being typecast, and those who manipulate their peers as a way of being won’t provide information about actions that are deemed so reprimandable. Particularly so when the questionnaire is not completely anonymous. Regardless of their reasons, they get to the same place: admitting rape maybe is not such a good idea. 

References:

-National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions-III (NESARC-III) <https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/research/nesarc-iii>

-Chantal van den Berg, et al, 2017, Sex Offenders in Prison: Are They Socially Isolated?, Netherlands Institute for the Study of Crime and Law Enforcement, Amsterdam, The Netherlands <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1079063217700884>

-James Krivacska, et al, 2001, Societal Myths about Sex Offending and Consequences for Prevention of Offending Behavior Against Children and Women, Search ResultsWeb resultsInstitute for Psychological Therapies, <http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume11/j11_1_2.htm>

-Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network, The Criminal Justice System: Statistics, retrieved from <https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system> 

-Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological Research, 2004, Prevalence, correlates, and disability of personality disorders in the United States: results from the national epidemiologic survey on alcohol and related conditions, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15291684>

-National Sexual Violence Resource Center, Statistics about Sexual Violence, retrieved from <https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf> 

-American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (4th ed., text rev.). Washington, DC: Author, <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230002115_Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders_DSM-IV-TR>.

[thegayemu]

It's hard finding details about all of this, but unless anyone else can find something, the study that suggested people with mental illness are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence was pretty limited. The only study I could find used a sample of people with severe psychotic disorders (such as schizophrenia) and were not taking meds. I couldn't find anything for cluster b or just mental illness in general.

The only specific info I could find was for borderline, and it basically confirmed my hunch. I also have to mention first that, primarily, borderline is far, far more traumagenic (caused by trauma) than the majority of most mental illness, including other cluster b disorders. That's why there's been an ongoing debate about, amongst other things, the fact that borderline might share more in common with PTSD than other personality disorders, and the potential of completely recategorizing it as a trauma-related disorder. So, if anyone does find something concrete on the other cluster b disorders, it is safe to assume that they're referring to abuse in adulthood.

Anyway, the study I found. Basically, it indicates that people with borderline have higher rates of victimization as adults across all four categories (verbal, emotional, physical, and sexual) than both neurotypicals and people with other personality disorders. Borderlines are 1.5x more likely to experience verbal/emotional abuse than those with other PDs, 2.61x more likely to experience physical abuse, and 3.88x more likely to experience sexual abuse. In addition, these experiences appeared to be recurrent for a large amount of borderlines. There are a number of conclusions one might draw from this information, about self-worth, choice in partner, etc. Most of all, it does confirm that borderlines are more likely to be victims of abuse. (Though you'd have to compare against studies measuring borderlines' participation in abuse to determine if they're more likely to be victims or perpetrators.)

Anyway, this is the information I could find so far. I'd be really excited to see if anyone else has anymore info on the subject. I hope someone else found some of this to be interesting. It certainly seemed to confirm my suspicions from personal experience, that many of us with borderline enter relationships with abusive partners. (And also that the perpetual worry many of us experience that we ourselves are abusive might make us more submissive.) Would love to hear some other thoughts and hypotheses.

I’ve seen people saying that people with cluster b disorders are more likely to be victims than abusers, and i can totally see that given the stigma behind those disorders, but was it a study of whether or not they were abused after diagnosis? Given that they’re caused by trauma, most people with cluster b disorders were probably abused before they developed the disorder

im not sure, like cluster b disorders are usually caused by trauma but being mentally ill opens you up to more abuse if that makes sense? like people with illnesses are at risk for being abused by doctors, parents and caregivers. cluster b disorders arent always caused by abuse but they usually are. i read something about it a while ago but I forget the name.

you could always ask @autonomy-is-a-right Connie knows far more about this than I do